Marines Future Bright, But EFV??

Marines Future Bright, But EFV??

The post-Afghanistan future of the Marine Corps is a bright one, Navy Undersecretary Bob Work said today, and the naval infantry’s greatest value has been and will continue to be executing amphibious operations. Now, how you define amphibious operations versus forcible entry is a matter of often intense debate, in the Marine Corps, the Navy and DoD.

Since Work’s address at CSIS today was on the future of the Marines, let’s deal with the hot topic up front: he gave a very tepid endorsement of the Marine’s new armored amphibian, the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle. The EFV is a “tremendous machine,” he said, but it is “very expensive.” Its future, along with the future of all Marine platforms, is under scrutiny and will be decided during ongoing “affordability discussions.”

It was telling that, as Work talked about trade offs among costly platforms, he pivoted from the EFV to the MV-22, another very costly platform (about the same price as a KC-130J, he said), and the value and range of options the vertical lifter provides in forcible entry. I think the Marines leveraged their future to the Osprey many years ago and I’m guessing that in the final budget drills it squeezes out the EFV.


Back to amphibious operations. There are many ways to skin a cat, and crawling over coral in the face of an enemy’s hardened defenses is not the only, nor is it the preferable, way to get troops ashore. The definition of “amphibious assault” is establishing a ready to fight force on hostile shores, Work said. It does not mean piling Marines in front of a sea wall under heavy fire and then painstakingly carving out a blood-smeared beachhead. Better is to land troops where the enemy isn’t by performing some fancy “littoral maneuver.”

The mission the Marines should truly embrace, and the one at which they would excel, is providing the amphibious component of joint “theater entry” operations. The beauty of joint theater entry operations is the other services can buy into it, Work said. Historical examples have shown the importance of Army airborne brigades in theater entry; it also allows setting up bases ashore to conduct land-based air operations, always appealing to the Air Force and its short-legged tactical fighters.

The Navy leadership has never questioned the need for amphibious assault, Work said; the debate was over the number of amphibious ships. For a “full-up, absolutely high-end,” amphibious assault, studies showed 38 amphibs were needed, he said. Yet, that number was probably not defensible, so, after much debate, 33 amphibs was the number settled on as a “reasonable floor.” With 33 amphibious ships the Marines can land two expeditionary brigades; about 2 percent of the entire force structure, he said.

The flexibility of amphibious ships across a wide range of missions – regional patrolling, partnership building, humanitarian assistance, disaster relief, raiding, shows of force — is what ultimately sold Defense Secretary Robert Gates on maintaining a large amphib fleet. They are the most highly demanded ships by the combatant commanders, he said, second only to Ballistic Missile Defense ships.

The Navy is “working hard” with Northrop Grumman to get a lower price for the new Landing Platform Dock (LPD) and LHA amphibious assault ships, he said: “We’re not going to put those ships on contract until we get the price that we think those ships should be.” The ultimate design of the new LHA and Landing Ship Dock (LSD) is also to be determined.

Work did give the Marines a bit of a warning that they are getting too big, literally; their heavier vehicles and kit are maxing out the available lift. “The amphibious system is a system which the Navy and Marine Corps operate together, and we have to be able to make trade-offs both in what we put in those ships as well as the number of ships we have.”

Marine Lt. Gen. George Flynn, who heads up Marine Corps Combat Development Command, and who spoke at the same CSIS event, said the Marines will shave 10,000 vehicles from their battle fleet to try and reduce weight, from the current 42,000 to about 32,000 over the next three years. He also said the Marines must re-reexamine their requirements across the board and decide where they can take risks.

Work was asked about the Independent QDR Panel’s recommendation to build to a 346-ship fleet, using the 1993 Bottom-Up Review as a force planning model. The Navy’s target for its future fleet, Work said, somewhere between 313 and 323 (up from 286 today), is not too different from the BUR’s proposed fleet. The composition of that future fleet, according to Work: 11 active carriers, 48 attack submarines, 88 to 96 large surface combatants and 55 Littoral Combat Ships and 33 amphibs.

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I guess the General’s definition of a “tremendous machine” is different than others.
http://​tinyurl​.com/​2​3​r​m​839

Faulty, gold-plated, easy to kill.

So now the Marines expect to be operating off of an LCS? That I would like to see!

squad size element?

What a glorious article of double talk.

>With 33 amphibious ships the Marines can land … about 2 percent of the entire force structure

An amphibious force that can only land 2% of it’s force amphibiously — and the other 98% ? — exactly like the army.

>Historical examples have shown the importance of Army airborne brigades in theater entry

Marines will do airborne for food !

>the Marines will shave 10,000 vehicles from their battle fleet to try and reduce weight, from the current 42,000 to about 32,000 over the next three years

Got to love a 30% cut in force structure being spun as “to reduce weight”

>The mission the Marines should truly embrace, and the one at which they would excel, is providing the amphibious component of joint “theater entry” operations.

Yes getting into the next debacle even faster is definitely a capability we need. Getting out — not even the marines are stupid enough to promise that.

Yeah, if you read the new Commandant put out a statement of his vision of the marines future. One of the components of it was that the Marines would rely less on the relatively large amphibious task force formation. That in support of anti-pirate deployment, that they should station units of marines on LCS.

Vehicles cuts are not immediately equal to force cuts. For example, the Army’s GCV is meant to each replace 2 Bradleys, by being capable of transporting an entire squad as opposed to spliting a squad between two vehicles. Despite the high weight of the GCV overall it should shave 8000lbs per GCV.

So when the Marines say they’re trying to reduce their vehicle weight, without a method specified their statement has no context as to how they intend to do it.

The big issue with the joint ops is that in order for it to work those airborne units need to be sea going along with the Marines, you cant keep the task force waiting off the coast for a week or two while the Army flies over to you. Then you need aircraft big enough to deploy the airborne units from as well, so how are you gonna get smaller ships when you need more aircraft on them? basicly he said nothing because he has no real ideal what hes talking about, been out of the loop too long. Modern war folks — we are not going to storm the beaches under heavy artillery fire, SEALS — EOD — FORCE RECON — SCOUT SNIPERS — and RECON are already going to be on the ground wreaking havoc and taking out threats before the landing starts. It doesnt take mass manpower to neutralize a military (example — desert storm = 6 man sniper team pinned down and took out most of Iraqs air force before the first jet or rocket flew into town, and they lazered many targets while there also).

Lets also not forget that the Marines have already identified they were going to remove armor and lighten up all vehicles to thier base design and add armor later if needed once ashore. Going back to thier roots also means they will focus primarily on assault — capture — secure and turn over to the Army and not concentrate on occupation as they have been forced recently, so the chances of them requireing the extra armor protection is greatly reduced by not being an occupying force.

What do you foresee the Marines unilaterally “taking” then handing over the the army?

Coastal areas with accessible beaches or long shoring facilities (which also would include nearby cities) to bring in the Army’s equipment. A large portion of Army gear is transported by ship, much more than by air. If there is an airfield in the area it will also most likely be captured and turned over. Even today the Marines dont occupy an area longer than needed before turning it over unless the area heats back up, then they will stay. There are more countries with shorlines than not, it is way more difficult to attack inland and gain a supportable foot hold than it is to gain the coast and control of trade routes cutting off food and supplies to the enemy. Hungry people loose the will to fight real quick. Cant even count the number of Ak47’s that were offered in trade for an MRE while in the sand box.

“Even today the Marines dont occupy an area longer than needed before turning it over unless the area heats back up, then they will stay”

That’s all great and all from an ideological perspective to motivate privates but when has that happened? I cant really think of more than one or two times in the last 100 years the army has been a follow-on force and never has it been simply an “occupation force” More often than not the Marines have been employed as light or motorized infantry alongside army formations. If one relieves the other its for rotational purposes not because the area has “cooled down” sometimes areas have heated up after the Marines have shown up when they were pacified before.

If what you are saying is true than the Marines had no place in Iraq or Afghanistan after OIF/OEF 1 when the “occupation” and real fighting started.

Daniel — I am not trying to step on anyones toes or belittle the Army, I am simply pointing out that expeditionary units are rapid response storm troopers and not intended to perform occupational duties. They have remained in country due to manning issues to relive the strain on multiple deployments of reserve and guard units. The expeditionary units were in the fray in iraq capturing oil platforms and ports before the first Army tank transport hit country via kuwait. The article is about the expeditionary forces getting back to thier roots, lightening up, down sizing, getting in and out as quickly as possible. The occupation in both of these places has been very bad, but that is the faults of politicians, no ground pounder I can think of thought the battle was over yet when the brass pulled in the reins and said we are here to help and not fight.

173rd Airborne 101st Airborne 82nd Airborne
Every landing force on D-Day wasn’t an expeditionary force?
Who is to declare who is an “expeditionary” force or not? Doesn’t the USAF deploy an expeditionary force? During the island hopping campaigns of WW2 there were a coupe of Army divisions involved in the assault landings.
Both the USMC and USA field excellent infantry forces.

capturing an oil platform does not equate to the type of Corps we have. By your non occupational logic the Marines should have landed in Vietnam then left as soon as the army showed up, the structure your speaking of is much more what The Rangers or Royal Marine Commandos not the USMC as a whole.

I sure would like to see where anything larger than a squad” slept, stowed their gear, ammo etc, how they go ashore other than by helo, and how long the ops could last?
And if they got too close to the shoreline, the LCS would get shot up!

Good Evening Folks,

If this is the best excuse that can be given for keeping the US marines, they are dead meat and the flies are swarming.

I would suggest that Undersecretary Work go back and look up a July 9 DoD issued paper on “Future Force Over the next 30 years.” Maybe this document is above his pay grade.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Why you hate America so much???

An amphibious force that can only land 2% of it’s force amphibiously — and the other 98% ? — exactly like the army.

Since a MEB is over 10,000 Marines, then 2 MEBs are by definition 20,000+ Marines and in all probability 25,000 plus, including 30 days of sustainment. So, 30,000+ is what portion of 202,000? And from the 202,000 you need to get rid of the Embassy guards and other ceremonial forces, recruiters, trainers, the USMC squadrons in the CVW, and others. And thats 2%? wow, you must be using a different calculator than I am!

You are absolutely correct — like I said I’m not trying to step on anyones toes. Currently the USMC are the only ones utilizing the expeditionary force full time. Dang — I just want folks to realize that they are not intended to pull long stretch occupational duty and over 90% of the time they turn over to the Army because they have the logistics to do it, The expeditionary forces are trying to get back down in size and weight to be self sustaining for 72hrs, afterwhich they need resupply from the fleet or relief. And if I remember correctly during WWII they were refered to as either Army or Marine amphib assault units. There were expeditionary forces sent to the Phillipenes and to Cuba against spain and Mexico. SOme were Army and Some were Marines. Expeditionary forces are peacetime foward deployed rapid response units in case of conflict.

I am referring to Marine expeditionary forces and not the main body of the USMC. And the Marines of today are nothing like the ones of old other than tradition. They are better trained and more physicly fit than a lot of countries elite forces. The Marines in general do not have the logistics behind them that the ARMY does for the humanitarian and restructuring efforts that follows a major battle, They take cities — not rebuild them, that is why you find them in the country side and rarely patroling city streets unless it is a hot area.

Mr. Skinner,
Please post a link to your reference, July 9 DoD issued paper on “Future Force Over the next 30 years.“
Thank you.

Marine Expeditionary Forces ARE and main body of the USMC. Once you account for the 3 MEFs, each with a division, wing, and service/support, all you have left are MARSOC and supporting establishment (base staff, schools, etc).

As they beat into everyone from TBS on, the Marine Corps fights as a MEF. Well, at least in theory.

Marines are expeditionary–i.e. can be quickly employed over long distances. That doesn’t mean they bug out quickly. Marines have been occupiers, small war experts, and operations-other-than-war forces by trade for some time–Nicaragua, Haiti, Lebanon (twice), Dominican Republic, and on and on.

The Marine Corps doesn’t want to be a second land army, but it very well might need to sell itself as an occupation force–business there has been good lately.

Thank you

However I see selling oneself as a second land army would make the Corps vulnerable to the bean counters

It seems that the mentality of the “brains” in the DoD and Defense Industry is to build vehicles that are heavier and more armor plated. Problem with this is that they are slower, consume more resources, and easier targets. We spend all this money on a vehicle for convoy use, and all the Taliban has to do is make their explosives more powerful. I am not saying that we should not have armor, I am saying that we should look at other ways to get supplies to where they are needed. I don’t understand why we use slow moving convoy’s. Speed has a protective quality as well as a lot of armor does. Yes, I know that this article is about getting across the water, but the same principle applies. We should be looking at speed, as much as we are looking at armor.

It’s a troll… trolling around for an argument. ignore it and it goes away.

Good Evening Folks,

To Paul: I gave you the name of the document, that’s all you get which is a lot more then most who post here do.

One rather amusing point in NG has shown the Government how much it can be squeezed, it shutting down Avondale and if it can’t find a sucker, oops I mean a buyer for Pascagula Miss. it will be shuttered also. BAE is also trying to unload Bath Iron Works to the South Koreans, so far it’s not looking like a deal can be made.

Two ships the, LPD Murtha and the second ship in the LHA-6 American have moved from being on hold to being canceled. The LHA-6 USS America Class of amphibious ships if restarted would be a class of four hauls.

The project USN in 30 years. Aircraft Carriers currently 11/projected 6, Ballistic Missile Submarines currently 14, projected 12 (may be reduced to 8 hauls w/16 missile tubes instead of 24), LCS numbers asked for 55, projected 66 (this number includes planned Corvette “1200/1500 ton” class ships), Amphibious Ships, currently 31, projected 20, Attack Submarines current number 48, projected 44 (the number of subs may increase with the building of new SSM’s) Destroyers/Cruisers current number 88 projected 50 (cruiser class to be dropped, doesn’t include DD-1000’s).

On the drawing board or in budget planning are SSBN’s. SSN’s, CV-X, DD-X and the purchase of Corvette size hauls and other Littoral hauls which might come out of foreign yards.

This is reality.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

I like that one.. I have to keep in mind when I see alot of uninformed BS on some of these sites

leesea wrote:
“I sure would like to see where anything larger than a squad” slept, stowed their gear, ammo etc, how they go ashore other than by helo, and how long the ops could last?
And if they got too close to the shoreline, the LCS would get shot up! ”

1st, the LCS can be formatted to accommodate a 60+ man SEAL Task Unit & Equipment so I don’t think it’ll have a problem w/a 13 Marine Rifle Squad.

2nd it was the Navy, 2yrs ago, that requested the Marines look into providing a Sqd-Plt sized Hostile/Non-Compliant Boarding capability that could be dispersed & deployed on the LCS. Mobility would be by Navy provided RHIBs or in conjunction w/the Navy’s RS-1.

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