GE Pitches Hill on F136’s Upkeep

GE Pitches Hill on F136’s Upkeep

As they comb the Hill and pitch the benefits of the second engine for the Joint Strike Fighter, General Electric is pushing one set of ideas particularly hard in the face of skepticism from the Navy and some other Pentagon sources: the F136 will not substantially increase maintenance costs.

The company shared some of its Hill talking points. One of the key points: “Assuming the Navy co-deploys the F135 and the F136, the F-35 will have interchangeable engines that have a high degree of commonality never seen before on the carrier deck.”

That goes to the heart of the CNO Gary Roughead’s objection that a second engine would eat up too much precious deck space.


In addition to that point, GE is also telling lawmakers and their staff that:

F135 and F136 are physically and functionally interchangeable;
50% of the engine is common (augmentor duct module and exhaust nozzle module), the other 50% is interchangeable;
The Navy has continued to reduce the amount of aircraft types on the carrier deck since the mid 2000’s reducing manpower, tool and support equipment requirements;
The F-14A and F-14B/D have been retired…The A model used the PW TF30…the B/D used the F110…both had different tooling, training and manpower requirements
S-3 retired a few years ago further reducing unique manpower and support equipment on the carrier deck
The F/A-18E/F and EA-18G will use a common engine and support equipment

To demonstrate the degree of commonality between the two engines, the company says that all the shipping containers, ground handling support equipment, the vertical lift system and hand tools are 100 percent common.

On top of that, many of the servicing processes are common, the company says, including those for lifting the engine.

Finally, GE says “no additional manpower [is] required for a mixed fleet on carrier or at installation.” That is aimed straight at the Navy’s worries as well.

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Why don’t they just claim it will never need maintenance at all? I guess that would be silly.

Guess this is more GE “imagination” at work — funny, one would think the Navy would have the knowledge and experience to make the determination as to why a single engine makes more sense (and save lots of tax dollars) than a extra engine. Sure, why not two sets of landing gear; two sets of avionics? And how come we don’t see GE making the same argument for all the US aircraft for which GE is the sole engine supplier? Who could imagine that?

Flyright, you just don’t get it. Comparing the propulsion system to the avionics and landing gear is absolutely ridiculous. You can land an aircraft without either of the systems you mentioned, try landing a single engine fighter with no operational engine. What do you think would happen if the engine stalls out right before the pilot “rotates” off the deck of an Aircraft Carrier? Like the F16, the F35 would be a “lawn dart” if the engine was to fail in flight. The alternate engine adds that extra insurance you need to create the environment we the user wants from the propulsion contractor who is building the engine to power our single engine fighter.

Ok Formula, so if alternate engines are so necessary in your view, how come there aren’t any for the B-1, B-2, F-117, F-111, F-18, F-22, F-14, F-15 E/F and many other aircraft in our arsenal? You just don’t get it. An extra engine is a luxury the U.S. can’t afford. And, by the way, having two sets of spare parts, two sets of mechanics, etc on an aircraft carrier where space is already at a premium is, as you would put it, absolutely ridiculous. Secretary Gates has been very clear as have all the heads of the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force on why a costly extra engine is unnecessary and a waste of taxpayer dollars in these extraordinarily difficult economic times.

The F14 and F18 C/D DID have an alternate engine; the F15 DOES.

Formula, I guess your right.. if the landing gear did collapse during landing and the aircraft crashed on the deck I guess it still technically landed… and I guess if the avionics screwed up the flight controls and the aircraft stalled and crashed.. it technically landed… but can you really say it was safe to “fly”… in either case the pilot likely had to take the “nylon let-down” if they were lucky… so your arguement does not seem to hold water.. or air in this case…

None of your points are valid. Crashing a fighter into the deck with no landing gear is not exactly an acceptable “landing”. An unstable fighter, like the F-35, can’t fly at all without it’s avionics, specifically the flight control computers. The alternate engine does nothing to create the imaginary environment you’ve conjured up. It’s unnecessary in an already hugely over-budget program. This is simple politics.

That’s not true. There were no initial alternate engines with any of those aircraft. There was a prime contractor for the powerplants and that was it. In cases like the F-14 an upgraded engine was purchased and a new version of the aircraft was released.

Thanks “JCS” for having some logic. First off “Flyright”, the multi-engine aircraft would have to have all of its engines fail for it to have a Class A event.….so, there is no argument for an alternate engine. If need be, even if we had a major issue with the engine failing on a multi-engine plateform, the risk of having the same event occur at the same time on a multi-engine is manageable. “Greg” your point is valid at the time of occurance, however, if the investigation board determines that a critical piece of major rotating hardware failed, which we have seen before, you are talking grounding the fleet and limited or no combat capability for a single engine fighter. The alternate engine, provides a “plug and play” scenario to keep the F35’s capability in tact. If we install only the F135 in every F35, then we run a serious risk to U.S Security and our leading edge in combat fighter aircraft capability. Keep in mind, there is no other scenario playing out like the one for the F35 in which it will be the tactical fighter that replaces most of the Fighter Aircraft we use today all of which have different propulsion systems. “Josh” this is for you, today, we have multiple fighters that can pickup the role for each other if we were to have a grounding action. The F35 will NOT have anyone else to pick up its role. This will be the environment one day.…..we can’t risk it.

Here’s what I don’t get about this particular GE ploy (the latest in a long series of logic and math-challenged arguments) for their secondary engine. If it’s really such a “clone” of Pratt’s superior primary engine, why do we need it in the first place? The doubletalk in favor of this corporate welfare program from GE is just beyond stupefying. Where is a razor bearing William of Occam when you need him?

Because…When a landing gear fails, you pull the emergency gear extension handle, the gear drops by gravity and you land safely. When engine on a single engine aircraft fails, the aircraft drops by gravity and you crash.

Because…those are 2 engine aicraft you’re talking about. Its a different risk assessment.

Your examples…4 engine, 4 engine, 2 engine, 2 engine, 2 engine, 2 engine, 2 engine. Do you have any single engine examples?

@ Formula Okay so how do you get an alternative engine up to a plane already flying. Your argument makes no sense, if the single engine fails the jet is still just that a single engine fighter so its falling out of the air either way. The alternative engine doesn’t alleviate that. When the corporations tell the military that they need to buy some big pretty expensive hardware, that usually means that we don’t need it. Your argument is just off base.

What i dont understand is why they cancelled the F-22 production only to go out and blow billions on an aircraft we dont need. We need more quantity not quality

Again, we should wait until the F-35 program is on it’s feet and meeting requirements before we worry about getting a second engine in service.

So what do you think will happen when a manufacturer specific TCTO comes out against the only engine powering the F35? Oh and by the way we are only doing 2 level maintenance (which basically is remove and replace). A HUGE bottleneck at depot happens, is what meanwhile all F35’s are grounded…So do you think an alternative to that scenario is a good idea? Or should we just pu all our eggs in one basket?

Not sure how folks are comparing the F135 ISR production engine which has already flown on the CTOL and CV service variants (and is ahead of test schedule) or the F135 FFR STOVL engine (which continues to meet or exceed all Thrust, Split and handling requirements)… which combined have accumulated approximately 15,000 hours of testing vs an F136 engine demo that has not even accumulated 200 hrs? And why isn’t the Hill being told about yet ANOTHER major F136 test failure that occured this week (engine blew up… 2nd time in six months). Despite the bad press, these type of major failures have never occurred during PW’s F135 test program. The $3B Design & Development Government estimate that GE disputes is wishful thinking and definitely on the LOW side… The F136 should be killed; throwing billions of $$$ in order to justify some hypothetical competition on an ever diminishing number of aircraft, just limits the number of F-35s that will be built.

jcs — In response to your question about aircraft with only a single engine: SAC had over 1800 variants of the B-47, each equipped with six of the single-spool, axial compressor J-47 engines. One engine model for the entire fleet. The J-47 was touchy, given to compressor stalls if the power was advanced too quickly below 55%, and it was unforgiving of either hot starts or speeds in excess of 102% — - — but, we learned the J-47 limits early and treated the engines accordingly.

And how’s that got anything to do with single vs. twin engine?

If specific TCTO comes out against the only engine powering the F-18 E/F? Oh and by the way we are only doing 2 level maintenance (which basically is remove and replace). A HUGE bottleneck at depot happens, is what meanwhile all F-18’s E/F are grounded.

And since the F414 is a derivative of the F404 in the A/B’s and C/D’s, shouldn’t we ground the whole F-18 fleet if one engine in the popualtion of several thousand fails unexpectedly.

Meanwhile, GE buys an exclusive position on the newest 777’s. All you GE fans can’t have it both ways.

“And why isn’t the Hill being told about yet ANOTHER major F136 test failure that occured this week (engine blew up… 2nd time in six months).” — Source or details, please.

I gotta go work for one of these guys!

If you are a true WrenchTwister you already know that you are using a falacious arguement as there are many F-16 TCTOs and none of them have or are grounding that fleet… so lets get back to the real world and leave the sky is falling to the chicken littles…

JoeT, your point is well made. However, the F135 is a derivative of the F119. Today, our US Military has several “other” fighters that can perform each other’s role if one was to be grounded. With the planned force structure for the F35, the F35 will “replace” all those “other” platforms which will lead us to one day only having the F22 and F35 which both have basically the same engine. To your point about the derivative engine, worst case scenario could one day have both the F22 and F35 either grounded or its combat mission severely curtailed for a major technical issue…there will be no “other” aircraft to step up to do the job. It’s only prudent and logical in this case to prepare for the worst case and have an alternate engine for the F35. I’m confident the Congress and Senate along with President Obamas’ signature will make this happen.

Good Morning Folks,

If they are both so much alike as GE claims then the obvious questions is why do we need to buy both?

Or better yet make both sides mad and do the right thing and cancel the who F-35 project and save the tax payers a bundle of money.

These toys will never be used in combat and it would be a huge saving for the tax payer to just fly the F-35 from the production line to the salvage yard where it will be made into beer cans just sooner rather then later.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

JoeT is right — bottom line — GE’s arguments re: sole source, exclusivity, and monopoly in regard to the F-35 engine are all bogus. Clearly, GE is perfectly happy (thank you very much) with not having competition for the engines for the US Navy and Marine Corps F/A-18A/B/C/Ds (a monopoly for GE’s F404 engine) and lest we forget all those F/A-18E/Fs — again a monopoly for GE’s F414 engine. And, of course, GE currently enjoys a near 80% share of the military engine market. Clearly, when it comes to whining, GE is masterful.

Formula’s scenario, while dramatic and a good scare tactic, is not possible. If you know anything about how engines are developed, there are constant configuration changes being made. Each subsequent configuration will be upgraded with modifications, component improvements, new materials, engineering design refinements,etc. Not unlike the development of airplanes, cars and other complex pieces of engineering. So in other words, from one configuration to the next, you are essentially dealing with a slightly improved, slightly reconfigured engine. You have to have a pretty vivid imagination to believe that a technical issue would impact every block configuration of both engines. This has never happened before, and with the advancements made in 5th generation technology, it’s a totally improbable scenario. And then of course, it’s worth mentioning that the F119 engine powering the F-22 has accumulated more than 300,000 hours and is the safest, most reliable fighter engine ever fielded. Doesn’t exactly sound like a recipe for a grounding. Facts and data are always a useful part of any debate and should always support one’s opinion.

An engine did not “blow up ” this week. Quit with your lies and scare tactics.

For those that say a f-18 is sole source. Fine, you are right. But it is one of my a/c in the fleet. The f-35 will will be the only game in town for the next 20–30 years. To have one manufacturor is not good for the military or for a nation in desperate need of jobs.

Flyright, obviously you never worked on or were part of managing any fighter engine or aircraft program in the Military. One thing we learned was never say never. The F16 and F15 engines of today are still experiencing technical issues and are still going through upgrades year after year so they can be reliable, maintainable and safe to fly. The F100 program experienced severe LPT issues well past 300,000 flying hours. The tolerances and temperatures these propulsion systems are enduring for the F35 are much greater than our legacy programs. We still continue to push the envelope of leading technology just like we have always done which opens the door for failures to develop instantaneously without warning over several thousand operating hours/cycles. .

Additionally, we are working on CIP initiatives for the F119 today because we have seen premature hardware degradation in our Pacer Fleet. There is enough commonalty of “fracture critical hardware” between the F119 and F135 in areas where this manufacturer has had a history of failures for the past 35 years. For a mere 1.8B left to invest, I think its prudent to use this money on the alternate engine to ensure I have part of my F35 fleet ready to go to war. You stated GE has about 80% of the Military engine market…why do think that is so? Like you said, facts and data are a useful part in any debate…I agree

As far as I can tell Formula is an extreme GE fanboy with a grudge against P&W.

ConcerndCitizen, where do you get your info? The engine did not blow up and you really need to be careful what you say without any facts to back them up. This is not the place for you to publicize false information. If you did your homework, you would realize it was not even engine related. The F136 is performing flawlessly and is exceeding expectations on test to date. The F135 has had numerous incidents involving instrumentation and engine hardware failures and they are in the process of a redesign for some major rotating hardware under CIP today. In order to keep the F135 engines already fielded “common”, they will have to do upgrades/modifications to these engines. This is a development program and it’s during this phase where you will have issues with instrumentation and engine hardware. Under SDD, you design, test, repair, redesign and then qualify hardware.….its expected to have failures and each manufacturer has had their own issues to deal with. And to everyone who keeps bringing up all the test hours the F135 has had compared to the F136, sure the F135 is ahead and they should be since they started several years ahead of the F136.

Flyright, sure the F119 has a good track record today…and, I hope it continues in the future because the F22 has a big mission ahead of itself once we start retiring our exisitng fighters. But, lets give the F136 a chance and not be shooting it down before it ever gets fielded. GE and RR both have a solid history of producing exceptional engines with very good safety records (ie, they are the #1 and #2 engine manufactureres in the World respectively). The engines being designed and tested today have indeed taken all of the lessons learned from the legacy programs and improved the materials and coatings used in our 5th generation fighters. There is no doubt the F136 will be an exceptional engine and it too will share an outstanding safety record like the F119 some day. I’m a firm believer with what we have left to pay on the F136 it will be money well spent for the USG both today and tomorrow. It would be foolish to throw away the 3.5B spent today when they are already 75% complete and on time and on budget.

No, because it isn’t REALLY about ‘competition’ or safety but rather any BS argument you can come up with to justify the “need” for the F136 when in reality there isn’t one.

Not to say there are not any good things about having an ‘alternate/competative’ engine (or whatever) when you have lots of money to spare but when money is tight it is an unecessary waste.

P-39, P-40, P-47, P-51, F4F, F6F, F8F, F4U, SBD, SBC, TBD, TBF, F-8, F-9, F-86, F-100, F-102, F-104, F-105, F-106, A-1, A-4, A-7, AV-8, U-2, MQ-1, RQ-4…

Correct, you dont understand why they cancelled the F-22 OR what we need.

Pfcem, I may support the F-35 (if the weight is kept under control), but even I think halting F-22 production was a bad call.

Guys, let’s get the record straight. The whole Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) program is over two years behind schedule. Any commentary that the F-135 is ahead of its testing schedule is ridiculous.

WFT does that have to do with continuing the F136 or not?

And you are incorrect. The schedule has been changed (a number of times). The latest change extended flight testing 13 months (even though the program was only ~6 months behind & looked to be on its way to catching up with the then latest/now previous schedule). IF there is another schedule change expect it to be to accelerate the schedule…

What you’re talking about is called “rebaselining.” When the old schedule can’t be met, change it. I always like my metrics to be in relation to the original schedule (which is what was used to sell or get the program approved). Anything else is self-delusion, and a complete misrepresentation to the taxpaying public. I’m very familiar with this kind of Pentagon lying.

Nice spin.

Right on Taxpayer!!!

Although not nearly as laughable as GE’s (and Formula’s) comment that they are “on time and budget” after running four engines for a total of 50 hours last year. Really, that was part of GE’s F136 development plan? Interesting strategy, huh? Please, stop pumping the sunshine.

“Despite the bad press, these type of major failures have never occurred during PW’s F135 test program…” That is interesting however wrong. The F135 suffered turbine blade failures (multiple times) that grounded flight testing of both the CTOL and STOVL aircraft.

&lt http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/F35B02068.xml&headline=F135%20Blade%20Failure%20Could%20Hold%20Up%20STOVL%20JSF&channel=defense>" rel="nofollow">;http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/F35B02068.xml&headline=F135%20Blade%20Failure%20Could%20Hold%20Up%20STOVL%20JSF&channel=defense>

“…F135 FFR STOVL engine (which continues to meet or exceed all Thrust, Split and handling requirements)… ” Interesting, but it is my understanding that the current STOVL aircraft is so over weight for the F135 engine that it cannot fly hover mode in temperatures exceeding ~80 degrees. Last time I checked our current conflicts put our armed forces in areas that are much hotter than 80 degrees. Of course P&W isn’t going to come out and admit this.

Also, the F136 engines that are undergoing testing right now are production configuration engines and have accumulated well over 200 hours of ground testing. Of course the F135 is ahead in the hours of testing, you would sure hope so given the several year head start on the project.

If you somehow dought the merrits of competition I want to point out one relatively recent development in both engine programs that proves competition works. The F136 program offered to the government a fixed price contract, essentially taking the liability of cost overages. Within a month or two the F135 followed suit, abandoning their tradition cost plus contract style.

The bottom line is the F136 engine has more temperature and thrust margin than the F135. Since the aircraft is already overweight and will likely only get heavier as it gets older this margin is important. Would you rather have an F136 engine now with that capability or pay to upgrade the F135 later down the road. Either way this aircraft is going to need more thrust than the current spec requirements call for. How much do you think it is going to cost to upgrade the F135 if it is the only game in town?

Or as laughable as P&W’s CEO claiming that the F135 had never caused a delay in flight testing. A turbine blade failure caused a delay in the ground and flight testing of both the CTOL and STOVL aircraft, not one failure but two.

&lt http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/F35B02068.xml&headline=F135%20Blade%20Failure%20Could%20Hold%20Up%20STOVL%20JSF&channel=defense>" rel="nofollow">;http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/F35B02068.xml&headline=F135%20Blade%20Failure%20Could%20Hold%20Up%20STOVL%20JSF&channel=defense>

FACTS: F136 Engine was physically REMOVED from testing from AEDC last week, due to a supposed failure of test instrumentation… second time in six months. Over the past decade no PW F135 engine was ever removed from a test cell due to a test instrumentation issue. There are MAJOR design problems with the F136… all being hidden right now because of the ongoing debate in Congress. In fact, PW now has unlimited airtime at AEDC, because no re-insertion date has been introduced. It’s this kind of hazy accounting that the GE/RR team keeps hiding from taxpayers. 100 hrs vs 15,000 hrs and counting. And stop spreading untrue rumors, there is no major rotating hardware redesign work on the F135 under CIP today. CTOL and CV ISR variants are currently being flight tested and AHEAD of schedule. STOVL FFR is being flight tested and the ISR variant is on track for completion later this year. There are Block 3, 4, 5, and 6 plans that are being planned as with any engine program… these providing additional thrust growth capabilities of 5 to 10% over current specifications.

It will cost a hell of a lot less to upgrade the F135 (should it require it) than dump another couple of billion $ into the F136. The F136 is far from being done.

Re: Fixed price, P&W offered that deal a long time ago. Perhaps if GE is so confident in the $700M number to complete development, they ought to offer a FFP contract to complete the development (But they won’t ’cause they know it will cost much more).

jdk, it appears you do not know the cost going into CIP today for the F135 second engine. You also are not aware that the F135’s produced to date and those being produced today under LRIP will ALL have to be upgraded/modiifed. Keep in mind, there cannot be several variants of F135 engines powering the F35…it is to be one common engine for all three vairants. Therefore, the American public needs to realize that the so-called F135 flying around today WILL NOT be the engine that will power the F35 in the future. When all is said and done, you are looking at 100’s of millions spent on getting the F135 to the F136’s level and the F135 is already 2B and counting OVER budget today. Not a prudent way to spend scarce DoD dollars on a single engine fighter. Competition is great.

So you’re telling me the F136 will be perfect when it completes SDD, and will never require upgrades? Given the F110 SLEP experience, why would I believe that? And, really, $100M’s to get to the F136 capability. Show me the data?

So yeah, great, now we’ll be spending on the F136 through CIP (just like the F110) from here to eternity. Just another reason NOT to continue the F136. So, yeah, let’s keep dumping those “scarce dollars” into a GE corporate welfare program. Competiton is great I suppose only when the GE boys are on the outside lookin in.

Upgraded with and for what?? Stop the lying Formula! No engine has stayed the same throughout its history, don’t be a fool! You actually sound like the GE engine is flying and is being proven out as we speak, when in fact the opposite is true!

It’s called HISTORY. If you all had any experience with P&W, then you would totally understand the need for the second engine. I know the history because of my experience with both the F100 and F110 engines. You should look into the history behing the F100 and then it would be obvious to you too.

One reason that the F-14 was upgraded was because of the POS TF30! They went to the F110-400 because the GE engine was far better and far more reliable.

Those were the days when P&W made a good engine.

I test F100s and F110 on a regular basis, and I used to test both the TF30 and F110-400. I have also dealt with both GE and P&W on a regular basis. This is why I believe that we NEED the F-136, and for that matter, we NEED the F-120! I do not want either GE or P&W to be the sole source of engines, if that happens we are in big trouble. The thing that everyone seems to not understand here is that if the DoD wants to save money, then they should only buy the F-35B model and start buying more F-22s. Yes we need more F-22s, there is no way in hell that the F-35 will stand up to the SU-35 or the T-50, especially the large numbers that will be built.

Thanks for the great list of 1940’s, 50’s and early 60’s aircraft (plus the dot.dot.dot)

Anything from the last 50 years…that is manned?

with the money boiegn is saving inoregon with those new dreamliners coming out of washington to king abbdulla whats the problem with the amount of finance? should we need more of our overseas gis brought back or is there super stars that shine money?

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