Pratt Ripostes GE’s Thrust Parry

Pratt Ripostes GE’s Thrust Parry

Stand on the edge of the Everglades with the August sun beating down on your head, the summer humidity wrapping your skin and the thunderous beat of 43,000 pounds of power causing your chest and the very ground beneath you to thrum. I waggled my jaw a couple of times so the seal on the hearing protection broke and my ears absorbed the awesome roar of the test engine firing about 100 feet away,  hung high in the air.

That’s what it’s like to experience testing of Pratt & Whitney’s F135 STOVL engine for the Joint Strike Fighter. It was my first military jet engine test and you can take it to the bank that I was impressed with the technology and with the brute power unleashed and then channeled.

That was one of the last STOVL tests Pratt expects to run before processing the data and preparing reports to win Initial Service Release for the STOVL version. “We will write 3,000 verification reports to the JSF Program Office, and late in the fall the system program office will stamp off the ISR for the F-35B engine,” Pratt’s president of military engines, Warren Boley, told us. Official and final ISR clearance is expected in early December.


Pratt clearly put on the trip to see the STOVL engine to ramp up pressure on GE and Rolls Royce as Congress prepares to come back from the summer recess. There were two messages: all our engines are fully tested and will soon be in production, while you haven’t got a single engine variant into production yet; we can put out 20 percent more thrust than the Pentagon requires.

GE and Rolls Royce have touted for months their engine’s ability to deliver 5 percent greater thrust using a software upgrade. They can supply up to15 percent greater thrust than the specifications require, but that would necessitate changes to the nozzle. GE has long argued that its larger core allows its power plant to deliver more thrust at cooler temperatures, thus giving their engine longer life and more time between required service intervals.

Pratt took this argument on head-on, with Boley and his team arguing during our visit that the GE/RR core weighs more because it requires more metal. And larger cores, they said, reflect older technology. Smaller cores are lighter.

Boley also noted that any increased thrust above 5 percent might require serious changes to the STOVL version of the F-35. If the main power plant provides too much thrust, it could overpower the lift fan in the front of the plan, flipping the aircraft over.  Of course, that would apply to both the Pratt and the GE/RR engines since physics applies equally no matter who votes for you in Congress.

In addition to all that, Boley made clear that F-35s will not get the kinds of upgrades that F-16s have over the years. The requirements for stealth mean that fifth generation fighters’ requirements are pretty set at the beginning of the program. Since you can’t hang all sorts of new gear on the wings of a fifth generation fighter you are unlikely to increase its weight nearly as much as you would on a traditional fighter like the F-16. That means you are unlikely to need great increases in thrust over the life of the aircraft, except for the simple need for speed. Most fifth-gen aircraft upgrades will be to and through software, Boley and his team said, and to the capabilities of the weapons they carry.

All that led to me to wonder just why being able to deliver significantly greater thrust than the other guy mattered and I remembered I was dealing with engineers. And, of course, being able to deliver greater thrust will matter down the road operationally. And it shows that the engines can exceed their requirements which means they will probably last longer and may require servicing less often than planned.

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No wonder P&W don’t want to competition — they are delivering a smaller core. That translates into worse performance, worse upgrade path and higher maintenance costs. If that was my product I’d want ensure I was the monopoly supplier too.

Boley is a used car salesman. Its just laughable that they claim that 20% more thrust wont be wanted in the future, ask any fighter pilot if he wants more thrust. Dumb statements like flipping the aircraft if it has “too much” trust is the sort of thing used car salesmen use to sell lemons to granny.

“greater thrust will matter down the road operationally” — You’ve got to be kidding me — “down the road” like when it’s actually in service ? — WTF are we buying these things for the joy of the procurement process ?

Good luck to GE. The last true great fighter engine GE produced is in the F-16 block variants. Yet, when given the choice nearly all foreign customers have chosen the PW version to power the planes. In addition, PW has a clear advantage given the F135 shares many mature components with the F22 powerplant. If a smaller and lighter core isn’t the future as RR & GE claim then why is RR, MTU, and GE developing that type of core in their next gen commercial offerings?

Ho! Ha ha! Dodge! Parry! Guard! Spin! Ha! THRUST! (twhack!)

PS it’s easy to deliver greater thrust when you aren’t constrained by contract requirements to derate your thrust 20%.

“Pratt & Whitney’s F136 STOVL” — of course you mean F135, or is this a sign.…

Anyway, since the Navy’s F-35C is considerably heavier, might in not be a hedge to equip the –C with the F136? That way, if the F135 doesn’t live up to expectations, you have another option for the –A/B’s (you could de-rate the F136 to deal with lift fan issues of the –B.)

Charley, It’s a sign that I was working on too many other things and goofed! Fixed and thanks for pointing it out. Cheers, Colin

People that haven’t been around the fast jet community or aviation in general as a day to day activity tend to be easily impressed by the environment. And claiming the F-35 is “5th generation” is like claiming the family car and a NASCAR are similar.

Gee Oblat, GE paying you too now? Isn’t it your job to be accusing everyone of being a corporate plant?

The reason the F135’s core is smaller is because the engine is still largely a development of the F119. The F136 is more of a clean sheet designs which could supposedly offer some advantages, but will cost more and take more time to develop. And it seems the goal of the F136 is to match the F135 more than anything else.

The F-35 is a 5th generation fighter when you consider the definitions of fighter generation change a bit over the years.

Flightdeck Friday: TFX & Turkeys — Pt II

“Senator, there isn’t enough power in all of Christendom to make that airplane what we want” VADM Tom Connolly testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee (1968)

Mr Secretary — Why Does the Pentagon Say the JSF is a 5th Generation Fighter . . Really?
Air Power Australia

I don’t think the JSF is perfect (and it should not have to be as we should be producing more F-22s to complement it), but Air Power Australia is rather insane.

You gotta give Bill credit he’s not picky to which rat-hole we pour the money down.

Thus the Tomcat was born! The best 4th generation fighter ever to fly. Went through the typical growing pains of any aircraft, but the F-14D retired at the top of its game. Damn bugs : P

Stop drinking the GE Kool-Aid! The F136 CAN NOT produce significantly greater thrust in the F-35 (A, B OR C) than the F135. The A & C are limited by the amount of air can be pushed through the intakes & the B is limited by that as well as the lift fan. Just as the F100-PW-229 produces essentially the same thrust (actualy a bit more military/dry but a bit less wet/afterburner) as the F110-GE-129 in the F-16 despite the F110’s larger core.

No they haven’t. The F-35 meets ALL the criteria for a 5th generation fighter despite those you wish to alter the criteria so that it doesn’t.

“in airspace contested by the PAK-FA is the F-22 Raptor, and given the time frame of interest, it is the only design which can be adapted to defeat the PAK-FA.”

the F-35 will no longer be a usable combat aircraft for roles other than Counter Insurgency (COIN), though more cost effective and more appropriate solutions already exist for this role.” http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010–01.html

I love how Boley down plays the thrust advantage the F136 has over the F135, but the F135 is going through an upgrade under the CIP Program that is suppose to increase its core and deliver more thrust. MMMMMMM, Mr Boley do you really know what you are trying to say or do you just like digging craters you can’t climb out of? Competition is great!!!!!!

I swear Formula, you must work for GE. If 43,000 lbs of thrust isn’t enough for the F-35, something is wrong with the plane and not the engine.

@ Formula
Where are you getting your “facts”? What kind of upgrade is this (specifically)?

William, news of the Component Improvement Program has been out for some time now. Though most of it is tailored toward improvement of reliability and maintainability.

As far as thrust, it looks like the F-35 already has enough…

F-16 (block 30)
Empty weight: 18,900 pounds
Internal fuel weight: 7,035 pounds
Two external fuel tanks: 1,400 pounds (empty)
External fuel weight: 4,960 pounds
Sniper XR targeting pod: 440 pounds
Gross weight: 32,735 pounds

Thrust (F110-GE-100): 17,155 pounds (dry), 28,600 pounds (wet)
Thrust-to-weight ratio (using above gross weight): 0.52 (dry), 0.87 (wet)

F-35A
Empty weight: 29,300 pounds
Internal fuel: 18,480 pounds
Gross weight: 47,780 pounds
Thrust: 28,000 pounds (dry), 43,000 pounds (wet)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 0.59 (dry), 0.90 (wet)

Already the F-35 has an improvement over thrust-to-weight ratio. And because all the fuel is carried internally, that becomes less drag as well as improved g-limitations. The F-16 carries a drag and g-limit penalty for the external stores. Also, the F-35 also has internal optical targeting systems for air-to-ground weapons. The F-16 needs to have the Sniper XR pod in order to employ air-to-ground weaponry, adding more weight and further increasing drag.

Only Lockheed truly knows if the F-35 is actually on par with the F-16 in terms of maneuverability. Sure the F-35 has a higher gross weight, but it has the aerodynamic benefits of internal stores versus the F-16’s external. But how much of the F-35’s inherent airframe aerodynamic properties have been sacrificed in the name of stealth? Could the additional 30 years of aeronautical design experience level out the playing field? 99.99% of the posters on this site can’t possibly have a credible answer.

I forgot to take into account the Navy and Marine Corps variants. It looks like the Navy variant could use the extra thrust. Note that the Navy and MC variants also lack an internally-mounted cannon, so the GAU-22/A gunpod is taken into account. Also, the Navy and Marine Corps use JP-5, which is slightly heavier than the JP-8 used by the Air Force (6.8 pounds per gallon versus 6.7).

F/A-18C
Empty weight: 23,000 pounds
Total fuel weight (with two external fuel tanks): 15,350 pounds
Gross weight (with two 330 gallon external fuel tanks, targeting pod): 40,000 pounds
Thrust (each engine): 11,000 pounds (dry), 17,750 pounds (wet)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 0.55 (dry), 0.89 (wet)

F-35C
Empty weight: 34,800 pounds
Internal fuel weight: 19,600 pounds
Gross weight (with GAU-22/A gunpod): 54,630 pounds
Thrust: 28,000 pounds (dry), 43,000 pounds (wet)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 0.51 (dry), 0.79 (wet)

AV-8B
Empty weight: 13,970 pounds
Total fuel weight (with two 300 gallon external fuel tanks): 11,840 pounds
Gross weight (with two external fuel tanks, targeting pod): 27,250 pounds
Thrust (non-augmented turbofan engine): 23,500 pounds
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 0.86

F-35B
Empty weight: 32,000 pounds
Internal fuel weight: 13,300 pounds
Gross weight (with GAU-22/A gunpod): 45,530 pounds
Thrust: 28,000 pounds (dry), 43,000 pounds (wet)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 0.62 (dry), 0.94 (wet)

I wish we could edit our posts. I also meant to include in the following paragraph posted above:

“Only Lockheed truly knows if the F-35 is actually on par with the F-16 in terms of maneuverability. Sure the F-35 has a higher gross weight, but it has the aerodynamic benefits of internal stores versus the F-16’s external. But how much of the F-35’s inherent airframe aerodynamic properties have been sacrificed in the name of stealth? Could the additional 30 years of aeronautical design experience level out the playing field? 99.99% of the posters on this site can’t possibly have a credible answer. ”

(though the F-16 could jettison the external fuel tanks in combat)

To the poster “jope”:

You wrote: “…in airspace contested by the PAK-FA is the F-22 Raptor, and given the time frame of interest, it is the only design which can be adapted to defeat the PAK-FA.”

I knew we would beat them one day in all aspects.

Now we only need to know how to invade them. Should we bankrupt, boycott and besiege them to weaken them, like they did with Saddam 1991 – 2003, or do we do it the Japanese way?

The F136 has no significant thrust advantage in the F-35.

Formula, Several articles have come out about that AMT test… one on Aviation Week’s website is quoting the thrust as 20% increase over spec, total was 50K… “The disclosure raises the demonstrated sea-level thrust for the F135 above 50,000 lb.”… Bill Sweetman, editor, in the comments section of this article commented the he believes this to be a record for fighter engines… so not sure how “Boley down plays the trhust advantage the 136 has over the 135″ when it does not appear that is true///
http://​aviationweek​.com/​a​w​/​g​e​n​e​r​i​c​/​s​t​o​r​y​_​c​h​a​n​nel.…

Thanks, but can you clarify the highest weight estimates of what? For the F-35 those are all weight specifications derived from Lockheed Martin’s own brochures and program briefs. For the F-16 the weights were obtained from contacts that work on the fighter, and thus have access to the unclassified technical data. The F/A-18 and AV-8B data was from the Federation of American Scientists, a very reliable source. I’ve cross-verified the technical data that I have personal access with their data, and they are mostly accurate.… just not always up to date.

Also, my weight tables reflect operational configurations, minus weapon payloads… since all of the fighters have a wide variation in weapon payloads for varying mission profiles. There’s also the issue of the F-35 variants flying on internal stores or with external stores. Fuel payload configuration, optical targeting systems, and the F-35’s external gunpod is closest similar configuration among all of the aircraft to represent the best comparison with the least amount of variables.

It’s the dynamic nature of these aircraft that makes comparisons difficult.

“Steve”, first, there is 27M in FY2011 for the F135 under CIP for R&M improvements. Additionally, P&W has secured 53M under Science & Technology funding for test engine XTE-68. It’s funny how no one talks about this; the F135 is 50% over budget and this additional 53M is hidden from the actuals for the program. Sure, every engine program will have CIP and that’s fine, but not every engine program secures Millions under Science and Technology. The last time I checked 53M would buy about five (5) JSF engines. P&W is redesigning the combustor and adding improved turbine blades (just to name a few things) that are being conducted under this 53M allocation. The goal is to have the “improved” F135 ready for production in 2013. No, I do not work for GE, but I do work in the Military Propulsion community and I’m exposed to both engines. I just get a little tired of reading false information concerning the F135 and F136.

Even MORE funny is how even with the F135 cost increases & the fact that ~1/4 of the F135 developement cost is COMMON harware (lift fan & exhaust nozzles for example) to both F135 & F136 that projections put the developement cost of the two at about the same…

OR that everything you mentions are in fact redesigneds which have ALREADY BEEN DONE.

Ha, ha! I saw the quote and though “that sound like Airpower Australia in full retard mode”. And what do ya know.

Oh for crying out loud, I think that most are missing the point completely. Really the main point about having a second engine is because competition is the only thing that keeps both P&W and GE honest. From my past experience working with BOTH companies, I remember the days when the F100 and TF-30 were the only game in town. We had lots of problems with both, P&W was absolutely no help at all. They were arrogant and impossible to work with, constantly blaming our test cells or our software. Amazingly though when the F110-100, –129, –400 came along, all of a sudden P&W becomes very nice, forthcoming with information, and they fixed most problems, yes those problems were with the engines. Oh and yes the F110 is better than the F100. Just to be fair, if the Govt was only buying the F-136 and GE was trying to shut out P&W, I would advocate that we should build the F-135 also. I believe that if you give either of these companies sole contract, you are asking for trouble.

First on the Fly offs noth companies were given a chance to flay with both P&W and GE. GE lost get over it.

I can’t believe all the misinformation I read in these posts. Level 1 Flying qualities for the F-35B STOVL aircraft, takes alot more than just producing net thrust! It has EVERYTHING to do with the transient control of engine thrust vs. engine + lift system thrust (ratio) split, as well as coordinating this with the roll post thrust across the ENTIRE flight envelope, and to do it a minimum weight. The advanced coordinated control of this system is unique to each engine supplier. PW’s patented and internally developed solution to this coordination is ten years in the making and now flight qualified, with thousands of hours of testing under its belt on both CDA and SDD aircraft. GE has NO flight experience in this area, and will spend $$$ billions of additional dollars trying to re-learn what PW already has flying and in production.

The heavier F136 core, also adds to an already heavy F-35B, requiring even more thrust from both the engine and the RR Lift Fan.… completely changing the flight control problem (and increasing fuel burn… i.e. decreased fuel efficiency). And let’s not forget that the RR Lift Fan and Convergent Nozzle System provided by PW as part of the F-35 commonality program is identical, with no plans to increase lift fan thrust. Finally, the F135 STOVL Engine not only exceeds its max thrust target by 20%, it also exceeds its requirements across the entire flight regime at target weight. This is not the same situtation as the F100 vs F110 on a traditional CTOL aircraft. It is a highly integrated aircraft — engine system, that needs to be common across all variants. It is time to kill the F136 program, and use this money for something we really need… perhaps development by GE of a sixth generation variable cycle engine for UAVs.

Its time to kill the JSF program — its all a waist. I would love to see the total bill for lobbying from Lockheed, P&W and GE.

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