Lockheed, DoD Agree on JSF Deal

Lockheed, DoD Agree on JSF Deal

UPDATED: Lockheed, Pentagon Agree On LRIP 4 Deal; Price Is Below $5 billion

After something like seven months of bare-knuckled negotiations, Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon have agreed on a price in a fixed price incentive contract for the fourth lot of low rate of initial production F-35s.

“We have reached an agreement with the government on the fourth production lot of F-35s that brings us to 63 production aircraft on contract for five services in three countries. We remain confident that this agreement keeps us on track to reach our long-term price projections for the F-35 at full-rate production,” Lockheed spokeswoman Jennifer Whitlow said in a prepared statement.


How tough were the negotiations? Few people are talking, but one Pentagon official told me this several weeks ago: “Lockheed just doesn’t seem to get it. They work for us.” This may not have been a reference to the Lockheed slogan, “We never forget who we’re working for,” but it sure sounded like it. And the comment was delivered with something close to anger.

That the world’s largest defense company knows times have changed is evident in the rest of Whitlow’s statement: “We know we have to adapt to the new reality that we face, with more demanding affordability goals that place an even greater premium on program execution, and we are committed to meeting that challenge.”

Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin put out a statement saying that the price was “below the independent cost estimate prepared earlier this year.” That is a reference to the Capabilities Assessment and Program Evaluation price of $113 million per plane (in adjusted 2002 dollars) for what is assumed to be 32 aircraft.

One figure being offered for the contract value is $5 billion. However, we hear this is too high though we could not find out just how much too high it might be.

The importance of the price per plane cannot be overemphasized. “Once they sign LRIP 4, they can never change the price number. It can only go down. That’s why the negotiations have gone on so long.” said one industry observer. Lockheed has argued that it will reap enormous savings once the plane gets to full rate production and the further it gets from early production models the harder it would be to argue for a price increase.

Among the key factors to watch as details leach out about the deal are: How many STOVL versions of the F-35 are still in the LRIP. If the new deal drops the number below 13 — the administration request — that could have a substantial impact on the price per plane. One factor to consider is that the Senate Appropriations Committee signaled its intent to knock down funding for three of the F-35Bs. Next, consider how many planes there are in the LRIP overall. The A and C versions of the plane seem to be in pretty good shape in terms of production and performance. The B version — the STOVL — continues to have parts and production problems, and it is much more complex than the other versions.

Irwin’s statement went on to say that the Pentagon “continues to closely monitor and aggressively manage this important program.” You betcha they will.

Following is the story I put up earlier today on JSF opinions.

The Senate Appropriations Committee’s tough language last week on the future of the Joint Strike Fighter  clearly hit a nerve, eliciting more than 135 comments from Buzz readers.

The committee cut 10 planes from the administration’s request and said they considered cutting all funding for the plane. It looks as if no defense appropriations bill will pass this year, but the committee’s views will still resonate in the Pentagon since the Senate is unlikely to change too much in the coming election. Given the volume of comments and the sharp reasoning in some of them I thought it would be helpful to cull the best-written, most creative and most authoritative (not necessarily true for each and all) and give you a compact version of the comments.

The critic:

Julio wrote: The JSF and F-22 are self-licking ice cream cones. Pilots shouldn’t be allowed to make these decisions. They’re still living in the stone ages and unwilling to give up turning & burning and yanking & banking a $100M piece of equipment. Most people pay to ride the roller coaster on fixed track. They get paid to make their own. The WWI thinking behind the Maginot line didn’t work so well in WWII for the French.

Software is so sophisticated and computing power so great now that UAVs can out think human reactions, are cheaper and lighter with higher performance –they’re not hauling overpaid zoomies around. A jailbroken iPhone programmed by a Pakistani or Korean immigrant (you hardly see Americans working at tech companies anymore) attached to a JATO with fins would give the U.S. taxpayer better bang for the Yuan.

Really, Is a fraction of a dB of LO or STOVL really going to matter? Fundamentally, does the expense of these impressive machines help us compete for the same limited natural resources as a burgeoning middle class of 1.3 billion Chinese demanding energy to run their new automobiles and air conditioners? Better brush up on your Cantonese and Mandarin. Quantity has a quality all its own

The spiral acquisition advocate:

Ed Orr wrote:

Gee, look at the B-52s and KC-135s and how long they’ve lasted, and how about the venerable C-130. They just keep making them and modifying to meet today’s demands. Why not rewing the F-15s, put new equipment in them and make them last 30 more years.

The UAS advocate:

Tony C. writes:

The future belongs to UCAV’s and the Pentagon knows this, but until the technology matures has to keep with manned weapon systems. The F-35 is the last manned fighter we will build and all the teething problems did exist on the F-15, F-16, and F-18 programs in the beginning. The F-22 is a great aircraft, but at only 188 in the inventory, would be hard pressed to deter anyone. Scale back the F-35 requirements and build a cheap disposable aircraft like the F-16 and F-18. Then when the UCAV technology matures we can send them in to destroy the enemies integrated air defenses. Use the manned aircraft for follow up strikes on undefended targets.

The fiscal hawk

StopWastingMyTax$ writes:

Why are we wasting our time and money on this garbage? Acq program cost estimate has increased from $231B to $323B (40% overrun) (for less platforms, BTW). Procurement Unit cost increase from $69M to $112M, (62% overrun). This is given DoD’s optomistic learning curve assumptions, which historically do not get realized anyway. Never again authorize a MS B for a 10 year development program that doesn’t result in a good product, just uncertainty. Listen and learn, people: if there are not real consequences to acquisition program mismanagement, and bad behavior is rewarded, then future programs will repeat the same mistakes. Ya’ll need to learn how to develop a product. F-35 hasn’t even completed flight test, you got NOTHING. You’re comparing performance of a NOTHING dream machine, with war-proven weapons.

Join the Conversation

Good Afternoon Folks,

Since my arguments are outside of the scope that management has set for this post I won’t bother.

What I see as the issue here is that the F-35 program originated over 25 years ago when there was still a Soviet Union and the Chinese military was an unknown. The current Geo-political and world wide military environment has change a great deal since then. There is no more Soviet Union, the Chinese and the transparency of the PLA is no longer a mystery to the United States and we are engaged inn two-three current conflicts where this weapon system is of zero value.

There is, in my opinion, simply no evidenced based logic that can support this huge expenditure of funds. The US military has far more pressing needs now and in the future then the JSF, that have simply been set aside in order to find funds for this program, and other programs with in the DoD that have nothing to do with fighting and winning the wars we are currently fighting.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Some of the comments above are, shall we say, uninformed?

The whole point behind the F-35 is that it, unlike the F-16 or the F-15, has some hope against modern air defenses. Which means, it can’t really be made cheap and disposable. We could build cheap and disposable, the F-16, and then watch them die by the dozens against modern SAMs. If the US couldn’t kill the Serbian SAMs with complete air supremacy during Allied Force, what chance does the USAF have to eliminate China’s SAM network in a conflict against them? The F-35 is expensive, because the quantities it needs to have are expensive.

Second, UAV and especially UAV flight controls are still in their infancy. No one has built a fighter UAV with sharper reactions than a human pilot, when in a massive high end conflict. I would like to hear how Julio proposes to have the UAVs choose their targets? Does he want to send out an air supremacy UAV, then let it go hog wild over the South China Sea and potentially shoot down a civilian airliner? Or will he require that the UAV be controlled back from Colorado, then watch the Chinese jam the UAV’s comms?

UAV technology has not evolved to the point where they are clearly superior to human pilots.

Colin — you know I appreciate your site and visit daily. However, these might qualify as most creative but I would hesitate to describe them as most authoritative.
People take a radical position on an end of the spectrum of opinion but the opinions in the middle, that are not written in the heat of the moment, are more authoritative and more worth our time.
A reasonable take on the F-35 is that every new aircraft (etc) program runs over budget and behind schedule. We have always had high end aircraft (etc) and low end aircraft. Now the lowest end aircraft have become UAVs, but they do not replace every other type of fighter. We used to have P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, etc etc etc. Now we have fewer fighter types — the F-35 has a place in the fleet but it is not the ONLY aircraft we should have.

I disagree with the percieved need for stealth — an oversold technology. Stealth will be the next B-58 Hustler — nice but not worth the expense.
We need to work hard to make the F-35 affordable, and we need to buy a reasonable number of them. Probably 300 or so. We also need to keep the F-15E flying since it is far more affordable, far more flexible.
We need to produce new models every ten years or so — if we stuck with war proven weapons we would still be flying the Sopwith Camel. We have to build aircraft and then see which ones really work.
The F-16 and F-18 are hardly “cheap and disposable”!!!! The F-16 was conceived as an inexpensive, day fighter but has morphed into a multi-role fighter.
The UAV has its place but it cannot replace all other aircraft types!

I disagree with this idea that UAVs should be replacing our fighters too. In the near-future UCAVs will be able to provide useful long range precision strike capability, as well as being used in the same manner as Predators and Reapers in Afghanistan. Yet air-to-air combat requires a different set of capabilities and target identification at long ranges is always a problem.

The F-35 was supposed to be a capable replacement of three different aircraft (F-16, AV-8, and F/A-18) using a common airframe and being relatively affordable. Yet we all know the problems the F-35 has encountered. Many seem to support cancelling the program, but doing such would leave a clear gap in the USAF, USMC, and USN. Saving the F-35 program should be the aim with cancellation as a last resort. We need to set some clear performance and cost goals and ask LM and others if they can achieve this, and reward success rather than failure to meet said goals.

For example:

- F-16 / F/A-18 level agility (Mach 1.8+ max speed)
– Low RCS
– Empty weights of 26k, 28k, and 29k for the F-35A, F-35B, and F-35C.
– Longer range and greater payload than legacy aircraft
– Working sensor suite (APG-81, EOTS, DAS)
– More internal and external payload options (6 internal A2A missiles including AIM-9X Block II)
– Price tags of $60–80 million depending on variant

If the F-35 can’t meet these goals and is cancelled, a new design would have to be selected and tested very quickly, as fast as the F-16’s development was for example. A new relatively cheap CTOL / CV fighter and the production of more F-22s would largely fill the gap left by the F-35, although the Marines would have nothing with which to replace the AV-8B, which is out of production.

We need way more than 300 F-35s. And I disagree about stealth. It can be a great asset especially against modern air-defense systems.

Congress is going through the motions, but Lockheed, the AF, the Marines, and the Pentagon have too much riding on this plane to let it go down.

I love all the experts in here. Rule #1 is listen to your Generals and to your Intelligence.

I for one don’t want to be caught holding a bag of *$&% when the chinese and russians catch up. You better believe the Chinese are right on our tails.…

WOW!! I hear all of these great arguments on both sides of the fence. I feel some level of agreement to both, however, as a patriotic blue blooded American I want to provide my war fighter with the best and most up to date resources in the world… Period!! We must develop and support new technology, even if what we learn is what doesn’t work!! As for over budget and behind schedule issues, I feel like the aircraft companies are like long time welfare recipients, they are always over budget and behind schedule because we allow that behavior to continue!!! I have worked for both the aircraft manufacturer and now federal civil service and I have seen this whole thing in action for years. If we don’t raise the bar and set higher expectations, they won’t change their behavior… I do however; think the F-35 is the best option today for an all around aircraft. We will tweak it and make it better as we go!! God Bless America!!

Where did the “below $5 billion” price come from? All the price quotes I have seen have it over the $5 billion mark.

People, if you are reading this, I beg you to think and research for yourself. The criticism included in the article is so completely uninformed, uneducated, skewed. It is so poor in fact that I am not even going to try to argue it. I am the last person to preach blindly supporting corrupt politicians. I also believe that half or most senior military officials are idiots, but they got this decision right. The JSF and Virginia class submarines are far from the most exciting platforms ever developed. The goal of these platforms is to replace numerous platforms. In essence the jack of all trades but master of none. The designs are based around multi-mission effectiveness, low production cost, and longevity. For once the government is looking for a way to spend money properly up front to save tons in the long run. Honestly I’m impressed as hell, I never thought they would figure that out.

Also, again for those reading this. If anyone argues that any UAV can compete with a pilot’s abilities, stop reading there. I build and sell UAVs to the Military, so God I hope my boss doesn’t see this.

an this makes this different from any other large project in any other company in any other industry how?

Yes, their struggles to build a domestic turbofan engine are a clear threat to our 2,000+ generation four fighter aircraft and twenty-one fixed-wing-carrying ships.

Twenty-one? Where did you get that number. I believe we have 11 carriers at the moment. We have LHDs and LHAs, but those only carry helicopters and Harriers (and hopefully the F-35B someday).

It seems several here are pitching the Gripen NG as a F-35 alternative. The Gripen NG is a great looking aircraft and is pretty munch the ultimate “light fighter” being a good 5000 pounds lighter than the newest (yet also very capable) F-16E/F. Problem is that it is a still a relatively “light” aircraft and it probably wouldn’t meet the range and payload requirements the USAF and USN want. The USN would probably choose to buy more upgraded Super Hornets instead as stealth was the main selling point of the F-35C to them.

Harriers are fixed-wing aircraft, as are F-35s.

I think he meant 3000.

True, but the AV-8 and F-35B aren’t as capable as more conventional carrier based aircraft. That said, the AV-8 is out of production and if the F-35B doesn’t survive the Marines won’t have a fixed wing aircraft to operate off those LHDs and LHAs.

I think the Marines need to let the Air Force and Navy take the lead and get the planes into mass production. I understand that the F-35B STOVL model is needed to replace the AV-8B Harrier, but its development is slowing production, which is the key to the lower price cost for the aircraft. Let’s reduce usage of the AV-8Bs to save them as long as we can, focus on finishing the development of F-35A and C models, and allow Lockheed Martin time to fix the F-35B. Any more delays on this plane will certainly cost us billions if not the whole program. Think what wuld happen if we lose the whole program due to problems with the B model.

you cant save the AV8B’s. this air craft is falling appart. to even get parts on this air craft you have to take the old one and try to make it again. this air craft has been repaired so much that you cannot fix it any more. it will cost more money to keep the AV8B in service than it will to buy a new fleet of new air craft. the concept of hovering is complicated. it gose aginst physics.

The F-35B is not delaying the A or C. If it were a matter of software I might say there was an issue. But the issue is related to minor parts unique to the B.

In fact, the A is far ahead of the schedule set this year and the C is a little ahead of schedule also.

Anything is capable when the opponent is ancient MiG-21 knockoffs.

I understood that it was also supposed to replace the A-10, if this is true, there is NO way in hell it will.

We should only build the F-35B and $h!tcan the rest. We should convert all F-22s to be able to have short field takeoff capability by installing the same landing gear that the F-18 Super Hornet has. We should also build F-15SEs with the same goal. We should also take a hard look at the Gripens, yes I know they do not have the range, but they can be deployed close to the front lines and we can give them better engines with more range. We should put the same technology that the F-15SE has into the F-18 Super Hornet. And yes we should press forward with 6th gen aircraft. Yes we need all of this and more, so that we can not just win the sky, but dominate it as well. Yes I can pay for this too, just kiss Welfare and Nation building goodbye.

I’m glad that I’m not the only one to point out Julio’s flawed thinking.

Contrary to popular belief, UAV’s are not unmanned. They are manned. Albeit not from a cockpit onboard the aircraft, but from behind a computer back at home station on the ground. The only autonomy the UAV’s possess are flying the waypoints programmed to them by the “pilot” (the military calls them pilots, but really… they should be called “operators”). So no, UAV’s do not have sharper reactions than a human pilot.… because they are still piloted by humans. Also, these ground operators of UAV’s would have lower situational awareness. If you’ve ever played a racing game, you’d know that there is quite a bit of “disconnect” from driving a car through a television screen as opposed to actually being in a car.

In terms of performing actual combat autonomously… would anyone really want to trust a machine to take human lives in our stead? I’m not talking about a scenario out of the movie Terminator. I’m talking about the inherent unreliability of technology. In order for a UCAV to not harm friendly forces, our ground forces would require IFF equipment. So in order for every individual serviceman in the field to be safe, he’d need a personal transponder powerful to transmit far enough to a high-flying UCAV. That’s a logistical and technical near-impossibility. And what if the enemy gets ahold of these transponders? You’d have to re-key all personal transponders yet again (they’d have to be periodically keyed for security purposes). Another logistical issue, and now you have a security issue as well.

Israel had already voiced a concern against going with a future all-UAV air force. Should the enemy employ intense jamming, UAV’s would be rendered useless. Now imagine an opponent that, by nature, doesn’t rely on high technology… a less technologically-oriented enemy state that flies 3rd generation aircraft that lack precision weaponry. Without a doubt in the near future there be an array of cheap electronic warfare weaponry (likely manufactured and marketed by Russia and China). They could just employ intense, broad-spectrum jamming over key areas. It won’t hamper their own forces much, since they don’t rely on GPS or a sophisticated wireless network (or even a wired one). American UCAV’s would go into fail-safe mode and simply fly circles waiting to re-establish a signal and eventually return to base. All the while American forces on the ground would be susceptible to 60 year-old enemy fighters dropping dumb bombs and making strafing runs.

A more sophisticated enemy could simply knock out our satellites, crippling our battle network and denying us the ability to command our UCAV’s.

The A-10’s have been upgraded with the Precision Engagement package (key feature being the HOTAS cockpit) as well as a planned SLEP. Raytheon was also recently awarded a contract to equip the A-10C’s with JHMCS.

The Air Force wouldn’t be doing all these expensive upgrades if it planned on replacing it with the F-35.

The F-22 already has short field takeoff capability. From a stop it can accelerate, takeoff and climb faster than an F-16 doing a touch-and-go (making a landing approach, getting wheels on the ground, and getting back into the air again). And it’s not a simple matter of installing the F/A-18’s landing gear system into the F-22. You’d have to re-arrange the layout of the landing gear’s wheel-well (you’d be surprised by how much you’d have to do), which even then certain design schemes would probably make them incompatible. Not only that, you’d have to reinforce the entire airframe. The F-14 is slightly physically smaller than an F-15C and weighs in at 43,735 pounds empty (no weapons or fuel), yet an empty F-15C weighs 28,000 pounds. Even the F-15E Strike Eagle, with a reinforced airframe for the strike role, weighs less with an empty weight of 31,700 pounds. The F-14’s additional hydraulics required for the variable geometry wings don’t add that much more weight. Even the F/A-18E, being smaller than the F-15 weighs in 30,600 pounds empty. In it’s current design, the F-22 is already pushing the limits with what the engineers can cram inside it’s airframe (as most fighters do).

F-15SE’s bring no value to the USAF. The reduced-RCS design is only useful against old and cheap fighter-based radars, from the frontal aspect. Against ground-based radars and modern fighter radars, it doesn’t do anything. Boeing already stated this. We already have the F-15E Strike Eagle, and they’re still young with a lot of life left in them. But they’re not as capable in air-to-air combat as the dedicated air-superiority F-15C.

Yes failure has become normal in America.

Part 1 / 18

Before I start: I’m terribly sorry for the large amount of parts of my commentary below, if necessary even for any unforeseen “a)” and “b)” subdivisions of them. The need for that surprised me too, and I know that it borders on ridicule, but expect more of it: Mr. Colin Clark promises us a ration of 2.500 characters per post, but more often than not he won’t even let me post 1.080.

But I can count, and at least two honourable posters here even get 2.700+ characters per whack, maybe more.

(Continued)

Part 2 / 18

A large (slowly opening), crisp, serene, aesthetic, slightly visionary photography:
http://​media​.defenseindustrydaily​.com/​i​m​a​g​e​s​/​A​IR_…

Top: A swing-wing, long-range ( = strategic), low-level-capable fighter-bomber / maritime strike / S.E.A.D. aircraft (“Suppression of Enemy Air Defense” = E.C.R.: “Electronic Combat Reconnaissance” in U.S. American terminology, formerly “Wild Weasels”) for O-N-L-Y 30 million $ (final 1998 tag, thanks to the mass production of 992 units, but unadjusted to 2010)

Center: A light air superiority fighter for 63 million $ (current price)

Bottom: A heavy air superiority fighter for 33 – 45 million $ , and a former foe of the his two present flight companions (now for export into ALL N.A.T.O. countries, too)

(Continued)

Part 3 / 18

1) The W-H-O-L-E T-R-I-O ( = 3 planes!) costs 126 – 138 million $ , or: 65 % – 72 % of
A S-I-N-G-L-E
F-35’s previous 192 million $ U-N-I-T price (!!!!!),

and

2) the AVERAGE PLANE in this trio costs only 46 million $ each
a) = 23,9 % of the F-35’s former price ( MADNESS ! )
b) = 40,7 % of the F-35’s recently reduced price
c) = STILL LESS than a F-18’s (maximal) unit price of 57 million $ !!! (Complete madness, given their very real capabilities…)

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Part 4 / 18

About the “recent” Lockheed Martin-Pentagon price agreement:

1) Why does “D.o.D. Buzz” NEVER report ANY dates? What happened to the Six Ws of journalism?

2) To Mr. Clark: If you want to be the first in something on the Internet, present all F-35 figures and their evolution as schematically as possible, preferably in tables, for clarity’s sake. Nobody does that, not even “Wikipedia” or other U.S. military Web-sites, I haven’t the foggiest idea why. And it helps readers enormously. Just an example:

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Part 5 / 18

1) 192 million $ = the F-35’s much publicized, former unit price
2) 113 million $ = the F-35’s new unit price, as announced by you
3) 2.443 units on order

The resulting program costs:

1) 469 billion $ (the arithmetic product of 2.443 F-35s x times 192 million $ )
2) 323 billion $ (the former, well-known program cost, probably lowered by estimated economies of scale) = a unit price of 132 million $ . But the Press always publishes it aside the 192-million-$ unit price and never explains the logical conflict.
3) 276 billion $ (the new program cost), resulting from the new unit price of 113 million $ .
4) The latest price reduction (savings) of the program cost is 47 billion $ , which translates into a reduction of 19 million $ on the F-35’s unit price, from 132 million $ down to 113 million $, or 14,4 % on both figures.

Figures slightly rounded.

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Part 6 / 18

3) But what are the odds of this price actually staying put before (and during) L.R.I.P. 4 ?
“D.o.D. Buzz” believes: “Once they sign LRIP 4, they can never change the price number. It can only go down.”

The G.A.O.‘s (“Government Accountability Office”‘s) 1997 view on L.R.I.P. (“low-rate initial production”) prices, including on their stated “unalterability”: “In a recent review of weapon system production rates, we found DOD’s optimistic acquisition strategies are rarely achieved because of DOD’s decisions to fund new programs in low-rate initial production and to reduce funding for programs in full-rate production. Consequently, weapon systems are produced at less than planned rates, causing schedules to be stretched out and increasing costs by billions of dollars.”
http://​www​.fas​.org/​m​a​n​/​g​a​o​/​n​s​9​7​1​0​3​.​htm

Tinkerbell: F-22

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Part 7 / 18

Did I just say “SAVINGS” ??! A “savings” in relation to what?? Even now, at 113 million $ per pop, the F-35 is STILL THE SECOND MOST EXPENSIVE FIGHTER on Earth, after the F-22 (the latter at 150 million $ each) ! At least a future Bentley owner knows instinctively that he’ll SAVE NOTHING by getting 14,4 % off, otherwise he’s bankrupt soon!
For example: Tell “Level 2” partner Italy, which feels like changing from its 30-million-$ Tornados to 113-million-$-F-35s, that it “may save” 19,2 million $ per plane…! It hurts…

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Part 8 / 18

1) For the price of the U.S.A.F.‘s 187 (1,8,7) F-22s x times 150 million $ each ( = arithmetically a program cost of 28 billion $ … but IN REALITY a program cost of 65 billion $ ), the U.S.A.F. could fly instead

471 WHOLE T-R-I-O-S in the photography above ( = 1.413 aircraft instead of 187 : That’s 7,5 TIMES MORE warplanes!), consisting of

a) 471 Eurofighters + 471 Su-30s ( = 942 comparable or superior fighters instead of 187, for 50,868 billion $ per combo)
AND SIMULTANEOUSLY OF
b) 471 strategic Tornado fighter-bombers instead of zero (for slightly less than the remaining 14,132 billion $ ),
and SIMULTANEOUSLY
c) CANCEL the death-yearning F-35, thus saving ONE THIRD of a tr(T-R)illion $ !!!!!!
(Did I just sound cheapish? Maybe I am)

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Part 9 / 18

But if the U.S. Armed Forces really feel that they MUST spend 323 billion $ … err: From now on allegedly ONLY 276 billion $ on anything at all…:

2) For the 276 billion $ of the 2.443 F-35s on order, the U.S.A. could even be flying

2.533 WHOLE T-R-I-O-S in the photography ( = 7.600 aircraft instead of 2.443, including

a) 1.000 Eurofighters + 1.000 Su-30s [ = 2.000 air superiority fighters, at 108 million $ per PAIR :
108 million $ x 1.000 = 108 billion $ ]
A-N-D S-I-M-U-L-T-A-N-E-O-U-S-L-Y
b) 5.600 Tornado fighter-bombers [30 million $ x 5.600 = the remaining 168 billion $] !)

(Continued)

Part 10 / 18

108 billion $ (for 1.000 Eurofighters A-N-D for 1.000 Su-30 fighters) +
168 billion $ (for 5.600 Tornado fighter-bombers) =
—————————————————————
276 billion $ (either for “2.443 F-35s” or for 7.600 CAPABLE planes)

Or would you rather prefer… 1.500 Eurofighter & Su-30 combos ( = 3.000 air superiority fighters, for 162 billion $ ) + 3.800 Tornados (for the remaining 114 billion $ )…?

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Part 12 / 18

And I won’t even mutter a single word about quaLity, just about quaNTity! (In a perfect World, quaLity SHOULD BE of special interest to the client / user: The bellicose U.S.A., U.S.A.F. and the J.C.S.)
I also left out the ECONOMIES OF SCALE ( = price reduction due to mass production) of all the aforementioned FOREIGN fighters, which is AN INTELLECTUALLY TOTALLY DISHONEST COMPARISON ! But even this couldn’t benefit the F-22s and the F-35s…
On top of that, I could even have chosen much cheaper foreign alternatives to the F-35 and the F-22, but I just happened to base myself on this perfectly haphazard photography.

And so on.

(Continued)

Part 13 / 18

To those unprejudiced, open, pragmatic minds among you who sometimes coyly raise the “daring” hypothesis of terminating the F-35 Frankenfighter’s tortured existence (gradual, speculative materialization…) and replacing it by other national or foreign off-the-shelf designs: If the trio in the picture above ever was to become the main combination of the U.S.A.F.‘s front-line fighters 2010 – 2030, 2040 (sigh), what mission or plane is possibly missing among them?
(A completely new fighter and fighter-bomber for the U.S. Navy and the ULTRA-affordable, 11,8-million-$ A-10 are also in demand, but they aren’t Airforce, or shouldn’t be)

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It so happens that the A-10 needs revamping too, for example by eliminating its STUPID , imprecise 3 cm machine-cannon, whose complete gun assembly weighs 1.828 kg EXcluding the armour plating around the magazine, because
a) those same > 1,8 tons can destroy many more targets if they were carried along as guided weapons instead (two examples: The gun weighs as much as 6 Maverick or 37 Brimstone missiles), EVEN IF THESE GUIDED WEAPONS MISSED THEIR MARKS by a few meters ( = less flights against each target),
and

(Continued)

Part 16 / 18

b) the release of guided weapons would also make the A-10 lose all their respective weight in flight, while it can never get rid of its empty, useless, still < 1,8 tons heavy machine-cannon.
The A-10 has no suitable calibre against soft targets either, radar would be nice, a terrain-matching radar even nicer, I.R. nicest, etc. etc., then it could function in all weather and even as a C.O.I.N. aircraft.
4) The choice of U.S. American engines and avionics for the above trio is almost a foregone conclusion. This way nobody has to pay licenses to build foreign ones.

And the TWO profit margins included in each license-built Eurasian plane would still make it cheaper than any F-22 or F-35 with ONLY ONE profit margin!!!!!!!!

(Continued)

Part 17 / 18

And if some branches of the U.S. Armed Forces sob because they’re convinced that they just “can’t exist / survive anymore without a V.T.O.L. fighter-bomber” (no comments, really), wouldn’t it have been MECHANICALLY infinitely simpler (and therefore incomparably cheaper) to build a NORMAL plane with a “F135” or “F136” or “F137” engine that is a T-A-I-L-S-I-T-T-E-R , like the former
1) Nazis’ Focke-Wulf Fw “Triebflügel”,
2) U.S. American Ryan X-13A-RY “Vertijet”,
3) U.S. American Lockheed “XFV”,
4) U.S. American Convair XFY-1 “Pogo”,
5) French SNECMA “Coléoptère”
and the
6) U.S. American McDonnell Douglas “DC-X” Spacecraft,
= NO “LiftSystems”, “drive shafts and gearboxes”, “wing mounted thrust nozzles”, “Three Bearing Swivel Modules” and other dingalings that make an otherwise normal-looking fighter-bomber cost 113 – 192 million $ ??

(Continued)

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Or, EVEN SIMPLER AND CHEAPER : To build a low-observable Harrier III (3) bomb-truck with super-cruise, etc., since the Harrier II (2)‘s technology has already been FULLY MASTERED ?

What happened to the flimsiest notion of risk management?

Captain Smith, it’s STILL time to to steam around this early sighted, seven times communicated, clearly visible iceberg ahead of us… Just this time, please… Hoo hoo, Captain? Sir, is everything alright?

To whom it may concern:

As a aircraft maintainer & a Navy veteran I belive that F-35 should be scraped. We kept the A-6 longer because the newer A-7 was a single motor Aircraft. Why would a pilot want to fly a singe motor aircaft if
he could fly a two motor aircaft with better surviabiliy!!!!??? The F/A 18 E&F model will work for Navy.
The v-22 should work for the Marines.

V/R
Patrick J Van Elzen

You can’t scrape an F-35, you’ll damage the LO coating…

Sometimes more is not better, it is just more. Your post would tend to fall in that catagory.

If you had one more character left to post instead of your 93, would you even know what to write with it?

I believe the only solution to the problems that exist at the DOD is to let the germans design our systems and then produce them on assembly lines set up at Chrysler, Ford, and Chevrolet. It would put these American defense companies back into the real world. The American people have had it with Washington and the Pentagon burning up our tax dollars in their annual bonfires. It’s no wonder that the tea party came into existence.The American taxpayers ARE SICK OF IT. G K MILLER-THE FATHER OF A SON WHO IS IN THE AIR FORCE.

How to ensure no one will read a single word of your post: see FreeFailingTurd’s example. For craps-sake, get a life!

Ze Germans may be great at developing armored fighting vehicles, but they don’t do much in the way of aviation development these days.

Your fault, if my memory doesn’t fail me. Tell them they’re free to produce heavy bombers, nuclear subs and aircraft carriers, OK ?

(Answer to William C. . I’m still sleeping)

The complete list of IMPRESSIVE U.S. American aviation developments these days:

1) The F-22 (not a single fly-off against foreign aircraft, not for export)

2) … ? (Help me!)

No, because I already said what I wanted..

Tell Emperor Akihito!

Then it must have been very substantial.

Of course there hasn’t been a single fly-off against foreign aircraft… there’s nothing comparable yet.

The fact that the export versions of the F/A-18E/F, F-16 and the F-15E are still serious contenders in the market against more recent entries like the Rafale and Gripen is pretty damned impressive.

Duel at high noon, in or above the Grand Canyon, starting over the Joshua Tree, no minimum flight altitude this time. The Eurofighter in black is already waiting for your shining white F-22, getting lighter as he burns his fuel…

It will be quickly over, that I assure you.

Which fighter will show up on the other’s rador first?

sorry I meant “radar” of course

The Eurofighter doesn’t stand a chance before it even gets to the merge. The F-22 is stealth, the Eurofighter is only a reduced-RCS design. The F-22 would have the initiative by being able to see first and shoot first. The F-22 wouldn’t need to operate with it’s radar off, as the Eurofighter lacks any weapons to home-in on radar emissions. The F-22 also doesn’t have to worry about giving away it’s position because of it’s radar emissions… if the Eurofighter detects the F-22’s radar emissions, that means the Eurofighter has been spotted by the F-22’s radar and that a lock-on is in short order. The Eurofighter’s greater maneuverability still won’t be able to allow it to maneuver out of the F-22’s wide radar range, nor will it be able to outmaneuver the AIM-120 once the F-22 has closed into firing range. Quite frankly, no fighter exists that can outmaneuver modern missiles, especially a salvo of missiles (common doctrine consists of firing two missiles in staggered order to ensure 100% kill against highly dangerous targets).

The Eurofighter possesses PIRATE, an IRST system used as a complement to CAPTOR. But IRST systems don’t have the comparable track range of radar… which is why radar is still the predominant sensor system on all fighter aircraft. Besides, the only IR-guided air-to-air missiles the Eurofighter carries are all short-ranged: AIM-132, AIM-9X and IRIS-T.

It sounds like to me the “Eurofighter in black” would soon be a fireball and smoking debris falling to the ground while “the shining white F-22’s” pilot would be returning to celebrate with his friends back at the base! ;-)

Somebody is confusing fighters and their gadgets here.
Example: According to their own admission, most N.A.T.O. fighter pilots would never try more than a SINGLE pass at an enemy helicopter armed with air-air-missiles!
Or: Did you know that during the Falkland War the sluggish British Harriers even shot down Argentinian Mirages during dog-fights? That shouldn’t have happened, according to all experts’ predictions and fears…

I was comparing F-22s and Eurofighters from a purely “physical”, “anatomical”, “athletic” point of view, say: During a gun duel in the air or so. The rest (the “goodies”) we can always buy afterwards for A FRACTION of the plane’s cost! But somebody had to cheat…

Cry baby!

“According to their own admission, most N.A.T.O. fighter pilots would never try more than a SINGLE pass at an enemy helicopter armed with air-air-missiles!”

You’re probably taking that statement out of context. It depends on what kind of fighter pilots you’re talking about… are they flying Mirages or F-16’s? That determines the weapons loadout, as well as the operational parameters of the weapons used. I could understand if the pilot was flying an A-10 armed with AIM-9’s.… helicopters are only armed with short-ranged IR air-to-air missiles for self-defense, so the weaponry would be almost equal. In this instance of course you would only want to make one pass. But if the pilots were flying F/A-18’s armed with AIM-120’s, then it’s a lop-sided battle and the pilot is free to make as many passes as he wants, as long as he stays outside of the helo’s IR missile range.

“Or: Did you know that during the Falkland War the sluggish British Harriers even shot down Argentinian Mirages during dog-fights? That shouldn’t have happened, according to all experts’ predictions and fears… “”

LOL. The Harriers beat out the Mirages because of the so-called “gadgets” (weapons and avionics) that you deride. Weaponry aside, the only advantage the Argentinian Mirages had was speed, but the Harriers had the advantage with maneuverability by utilizing VIFF (Vectored in Forward Flight). But an aircraft’s flight performance is only half of the equation in terms of combat effectiveness. The Harriers were armed with the latest AIM-9L missiles and Blue Fox radar at the time, an advantage over the Argentinian weaponry and avionics. Another advantage the Harriers had was fighter control from their warships. Also, the British pilots had far superior training. The Argentinian pilots would sometimes attempt to employ their weapons beyond their operating parameters. In case you didn’t know, when a missile is advertised as having a 25 km range, that’s under a specific standardized circumstance (e.g. 40,000 ft altitude, 1.15 Mach, at an oncoming enemy matching altitude and speed). That 25 km range doesn’t apply under all circumstances, and would thus either increase or decrease based on the relative speeds, altitudes and headings of both aircraft.

“I was comparing F-22s and Eurofighters from a purely “physical”, “anatomical”, “athletic” point of view, say: During a gun duel in the air or so. The rest (the “goodies”) we can always buy afterwards for A FRACTION of the plane’s cost! But somebody had to cheat… ”

What good would that do? The F-22 isn’t designed for the gunfight. Besides the probability of a Eurofighter getting within that range of an F-22 is extremely rare, and a good F-22 pilot would know not to let a Eurofighter get that close. Don’t forget that no other military in the world affords the amount of training as the US does for it’s Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps aviators.

“I was comparing F-22s and Eurofighters from a purely “physical”, “anatomical”, “athletic” point of view, say: During a gun duel in the air or so. The rest (the “goodies”) we can always buy afterwards for A FRACTION of the plane’s cost! But somebody had to cheat… ”

I forgot to add: That kind of comparison does not reflect the majority of the real-world circumstances in which the aircraft would be used. It would only reflect probably 5% of the aircraft’s total combat value. A fighter isn’t worth only it’s speed, maneuverability, range or payload capacity. Sensors, networking, flexibility, payload capability, deterrence value, availability, among others are often overlooked qualities in fighters… yet these have time and again proven to be invaluable, sometimes more so than sheer speed, maneuverability or range.

To the poster “Trophy”

Part 1 / 2

I never underestimated nor derided the gadgets. Still, I think YOU’RE over-emphasizing their importance: For every technical measure (radars, sensors, missiles) there’s a technical counter-measure (E.C.M.), and for each technical counter-measure there’s a technical counter-counter-measure too (E.C.C.M.), and so on. That’s why it’s a complete waste to invest in over-expensive fighter bodies like F-22s and F-35s: Just buy more agile Su-35s for a third of their price and travel with the rest of the budget to next year’s Arms Fair, looking for the coolest gadgets. Many clever Third World nations do that already. You know, like the negroes, who also buy 200-$-cars, then stuff 7.000 $ worth of tuning and Hi-Fi into it: In the end, they look (and sound) better than any brand-new, advertised cars! It’s just a question of time (of weapons “generations”) until all existing gadgets one day cancel out each other, and then it’s just plain old rolling around the dusty floor again, knives in hands and biting each other’s ears out.

(Continued)

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I would also rather invest in agility (for fighter-bombers too!) and in low-level flight capability (for fighters too!) for another reason: Sooner or later the whole stealth spell is broken by some new type of ground radar or sensor (long wave radar, backclutter radar, I.R., whatever), and then the only place in the “sky” for Boeing’s 200-million-$-sixth-generation-fighters to hide is… between treetops, whether in flight more or in hover mode, right in the tentacles of traditional AAA !

Ok, the USAF should buy the fighters from our potential adversary’s defense industries and let our domestric companies rot and whither away. I think I see your agenda now Ruskie/ChiCom ;)

So we should give up a technology just because a counter was developed? By your reasoning we should get rid of aircraft altogether since they won’t be safe up high from SAM’s and down low from AA, AAA, MANPADS and even more SAM’s. If that was the mindset then, we would’ve given up guns when body armor was introduced. Instead, newer calibers, cartridge and slug designs were introduced. Body armor is useless against large caliber weapons, doesn’t stand up to multiple hits in the same area, and offers limited protection up close against high caliber weapons. But we still haven’t given up body armor because we wouldn’t want to make ourselves vulnerable against low caliber weapons. It’s all about threat reduction: reducing the amount of threats against you. Stealth is the same way. If we gave up stealth, we make ourselves vulnerable against a wider array of threats… because not every country will be able to afford the latest counter-measures against US air power. And it’s not just counter-weapons, it’s counter-tactics, and counter-counter-tactics. We introduced SEAD against SAM’s. In Kosovo SEAD was in a stalemate against SAM’s, but now we have newer AGM-88’s that home in on the last known location of a radar site… making shoot-then-power-down tactics useless. Laser guided and IR guided missiles are short-ranged and are no threat to higher-flying aircraft.

“I would also rather invest in agility (for fighter-bombers too!) and in low-level flight capability (for fighters too!) for another reason: Sooner or later the whole stealth spell is broken by some new type of ground radar or sensor (long wave radar, backclutter radar, I.R., whatever), and then the only place in the “sky” for Boeing’s 200-million-$-sixth-generation-fighters to hide is… between treetops, whether in flight more or in hover mode, right in the tentacles of traditional AAA ! ”

The premier US strike fighters (the F-15E Strike Eagle and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet) have all the agility they need for high-speed, low-level, terrain following, deep penetration strike missions. What more would air superiority fighters need for low-level flight capability? Air combat seldom takes place in that flight regime. It’s also an area where canard delta-wings such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, and Saab Gripen would not fare as well against cropped delta-wing designs especially those with forward canards, such as the Su-35. Which by the way, newer Su-35’s removed the forward canards since it increases drag and reduces speed and range. They were only added in the first place because the avionics up front were heavy, but has since become lighter. If low-level air combat was to be expected more, the forward canards would be retained on the Su-35 and future US air superiority fighters would incorporate the design. And not because the US doesn’t know how to; the first experiment with forward canards was on the F-15 S/MTD and ACTIVE programs that started in 1988.

I should clarify before you get confused: When I mentioned our strike fighters, that was in response to you saying “(for fighter-bombers too!)”. The US doesn’t employ “fighter-bombers”… we have “strike fighters” and “multi-role fighters”, as the US makes a distinction between “strike” and “multi-role”, whereas in other countries “strike” and “multi-role” would simply be lumped in a general “fighter-bomber” category.

And my portion about air superiority fighters that followed was in response to your saying “low-level flight capability (for fighters too!)”.

To the poster “Brat M”:

Part 1 / 2

Measly cheater, I ejected safely: Eurofighter cockpits suspend death!

Back on my Chinese base, my Amerika Korps uh… (I talk too much) … “military advisor” wingmen informed me that you ONLY downed me because you secretly borrowed a Russian PAK FA ! They say all F-22s are genetically preprogrammed to automatically refuge themselves underground, as soon as they detect an Eurofighter’s faint radar signature! I INSIST on a rematch, even if my Eurofighter has to chase your yellow-painted F-22s around the corridors and desks and pillars of their nuclear bunkers, Firefox-, Aerial Hunter Killer– and E.D.I.-like!

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

The next time, I caution you against exclaiming “Upó Skií!” (“Even better: Then we shall fight in their shade!” like some legendary Greek warrior), “Masada shall not fall again!” (if you’re a doomed djoow), “Socialismo O Muerte” (if you’re a Communist) or “Nuts!” (if you’re General McAuliffe) : Richthofen and Erich Hartmann had kids who met and had lots of kids too; Eurofighters, Su-35s and PAK FAs “are fruitful and multiply” under the sun as God commanded them to, but 187 neutered F-22s don’t, “William C.” just prodded the huns publicly to build even better air superiority fighters, and the U.S.A. … sit on their 187 F-22s, wondering what it would be like to have 188. That’s not nearly enough for each German, French, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and Indian etc. squadron – we’ll simply draw straws at the runway!

Better surrender your mega-war-criminal Chimpface to the hooded U.N.O. executioner (by chance an Afghan Pashtun), or face the I.F.U.S.A. Coalition Airforce along your two borders and coasts. We demand Justice!!!

Part 1 / 3

Why? Is it really so hard for you U.S. Americans to build ANYTHING good AND cheap, or AT LEAST good AND STILL AFFORDABLE , EVEN FOR YOURSELVES ?

Is my money-saving idea (in the post above) of stuffing 21st Century avionics into (late) 20th Century aircraft (in some U.S. Airforce manager’s head, of course) really not worth – at least – a single experiment?
For example of upgrading a single (original = 30-million-$-) F-15 C with F-22 avionics?

I don’t know how many % of weight, space and money all avionics take up inside a F-22, but I can at least try to find some approximate answers for my devised transplant:

(Continued)

Part 2 / 3

1) Weight:
The F-15 C can take up externally 7,3 tons of fuel and / or armament, so I consider the weight problem completely inexistent.

2) Money:
Let’s say that one quarter ( 25 % ) of an F-22’s cost goes straight into avionics (“gadgets”) – just for conversation’s sake. That would be 37,5 million $ , out of its unit price of 150 million $ . These avionics worth 37,5 million $ would have to be added to the F-15’s own price of 30 million $ , all of which together amounts to 65 million $ . That’s STILL LESS THAN HALF than the F-22’s unit price!

3) Free inside space
Unfortunately I have no concrete hint, no reference point, no indication, to judge if gutting a F-15 of all its original avionics would provide enough space inside for the complete avionics suite of a F-22.

(Continued)

Part 3a / 3

So,

1) since the U.S. Airforce’s entire F-22 programme ( = only 187 F-22s) cost 65 b(B)illion $ , and 65 b(B)illion $ is (coincidentally) exactly 1.000 times “my” upgraded F-15 C’s unit price of 65 m(M)illion $ , the U.S. Airforce could have now exactly 1.000 of these F-15 Cs W-I-T-H F-22 avionics instead ( = 5,3 x times more planes than the 187 F-22s, but with the same “intelligence”. And afterwards, who would still want a F-15 Strike Eagle at 100 million $ each and with inferior avionics??)

and

(Continued)

Part 3b/ 3

2) for the entire F-35 programme cost of 323 b(B)illion $ , now allegedly reduced to 276 b(B)illion $ , the U.S. Airforce could have instead 4.246 F-15 C air superiority fighters with F-22 avionics and with simultaneous, war-proven air-to-ground capabilities! Naaah, not really worth another thought.

(Could it be that I inadvertently stumbled upon the perfect solution for your present economical woes? STRICTLY FORBID all U.S. Americans to buy anything for themselves with their own money and hire foreigners to buy for them, even if they may only buy made in U.S.A.: This way every American’s purchasing power increases tenfold!)

To the poster “Trophy”

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Now you’re deflecting wildly… Took a hit?

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Part 1 / 11

You wrote: “So we should give up a technology just because a counter was developed?”

Yes of course, at least until a suitable counter-counter-measure is developed, but you don’t.

Instead, the U.S. Armed Forces’ reaction to a new military threat ( = not necessarily to a highly sophisticated weapon or tactic) is threefold:

(Continued)

Part 2a / 11

1) There is no new perceived military threat.
I believe that the U.S. Armed Forces stick to increasingly many, increasingly obsolete, highly endangered weapons (aircraft carriers for example) because so far they only attack/ed Third World or Fourth World countries with them, and this always kept them for taking a real hard look at what’s still good for them, and what isn’t. (The crews inside inferior vehicles are humans too…) The most chaotic phase ( = too many different generations of weapons still operating together) was at the end of the ‘80s, but the present two low-level conflicts may worsen the situation again.

(Continued)

“For example of upgrading a single (original = 30-million-$-) F-15 C with F-22 avionics? ”

It’s already being done. The majority of frontline F-15C’s are planned for an upgrade to the AN/APG-63(v)3 AESA radar, which is based off of the AN/APG-79 radar. It’s set to replace the first generation fighter AESA radar, the AN/APG-63(v)2. The F-15E’s are planned for the AN/APG-82, which incorporates design features from both the AN/APG-79 and AN/APG-63(v)3. While the AN/APG-63(v)3, –79, and –82 are made from a different manufacturer from the F-22’s AN/APG-77, the technology and performance is close. Majority of the frontline F-15C’s are already equipped with the JHMCS modification to complement the HOBS-capable AIM-9X. The F-15E’s have recently begun receiving the JHMCS upgrade. The few F-15C’s that are equipped with the AN/APG-63(v)2 possess SAR, electronic attack capability, electronic attack resistance, and greater networking capabilities than non-AESA equipped aircraft. Once the rest of the F-15C’s receive the AN/APG-63(v)3, they will have even greater SAR, electronic attack, electronic resistance capability and networking capabilities. The AIM-120D has 50% greater range than the AIM-120C-7, improved ECM resistance, enhanced ECCM capabilities, and improved guidance.

The problem with further upgrading the F-15C is that it’s essentially living on borrowed time. In November 2007 and F-15C broke apart in flight due to structural fatigue. The F-15E’s aren’t affected because they are newer airframes. The F-15E’s can’t take the F-15C’s place for air superiority because air-to-air flight performance was sacrificed for it’s strike capabilities. The F-15C already has a deficit in flight performance versus the latest generation Russian fighters, but makes up for it with superior avionics and support systems. Congress probably won’t like the cost of a SLEP ($5 billion for a 10 year life extension), which may not be able to fully alleviate the structural fatigue problems. No other air force in the world flies (and abuses) their jets as much as the US Air Force and US Navy.… not just during actual wartime either, but during exercises (an additional cost for training exceptional air and ground crews)

The F-16 and F/A-18E/F/G also have similar planned upgrades.

Part 2b/ 11

However, using MOST of your PRESENT aircraft, helicopter, vehicle and ship types against a technologically ADVANCED enemy would cause you losses in the order of (tens of?) thousands, and instantly. That’s why you would also never make such a mistake in the first place, of course.
You could reply that the U.S. American golden oldies will only be employed after a few truly superior weapon systems (stealth planes, missiles, cruise missiles, smart ammo, etc.) paved the way for them, giving the scrap metal a chance to play cowboys and indians too, but the FACT is that the U.S.A. have NEVER again faced an equal enemy since 1945 ! Until one day…

(Continued)

Part 3 / 11

2) You prefer not to deploy the oldtimers immediately, but to send other, more (or the most) advanced technology to the front first (for example to Western Europe, during the Cold War), and bet on your luck. But traditionally both the Soviet Union and the U.S.A. never really RIDDED themselves immediately of all their old military technology as newer one emerged, and as I recommend they should do. Instead, they prefer/ed to attribute lesser rôles (e.g.: Rear line missions, basic training) or lesser users (e.g.: Foreign buyers) to it, or to form some hinterland division with it (“Military Districts”, “National Guard”).

3) Or you even DO deploy obsolete technology, even against half-apes, wait for the expected and inevitable outcome, then falter and flee. Usually, the U.S. Armed Forces ( = the REAL decision-makers, not some Press theoreticians) don’t admit their contemporary vulnerabilities and fears publicly, so don’t ask me to quote them directly. But a few of my personal examples for that, thrown together arbitrarily, would be:

(Continued)

Part 5 / 11

Why, do you think, were all (rather successful and irreplaceable) Space Shuttles scrapped after two went boom LIVE ON TV (although these were accidents) ?

Why, do you think, did the Neocons, hell-bent on playing Blitzkrieg, invent the “contractors”, and why do official sources hardly worry about their death tolls? Because they don’t matter in the population’s psychology, only dead SOLDIERS do.

Why, do you think, are the U.S.A. the fastest country in the World trying to get rid of all their manned warplanes and trying to replace them by unmanned drones? ( GOTCHA ! )
I wouldn’t be too surprised if one day the U.S.A. also tried the same with land and naval fighting vehicles.

(Continued)

Part 7 / 11

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You wrote: “By your reasoning we should get rid of aircraft altogether since they won’t be safe up high from SAM’s and down low from AA, AAA, MANPADS and even more SAM’s.”

Yes, that’s the trend: The number of inescapable ground-air missiles and air-air missiles INcreases steadily, the number of aircaft types that can possibly survive them DEcreases steadily.

As I just said before: Aren’t you IN FACT trying to get rid of all (manned) airplanes and replacing them with robots? Or didn’t you know that?

(Continued)

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You wrote: “If that was the mindset then, we would’ve given up guns when body armor was introduced.”

I’m ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that soon new matériels for body armour (nano-carbon) will render all present rifle calibres completely ineffective, even the 7,62 mm calibre, even at point blank. From then on, only (semi-automatic or bolt action, but NEVER fully-automatic!) anti-matériel rifles with armour-piercing ammunition can be used against common infantrymen, very reminiscent of the large game hunting calibres / rifles of World War One.

(Continued)

Part 9 / 11

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You wrote: “But we still haven’t given up body armor because we wouldn’t want to make ourselves vulnerable against low caliber weapons.”

Fact: The biggest killers on the battlefield aren’t bullets, but shrapnel (Artillery, bomblets). Helmets and body vests will always be necessary against these.

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You wrote: “If we gave up stealth, we make ourselves vulnerable against a wider array of threats… because not every country will be able to afford the latest counter-measures against US air power.”

Precisely wrong: The latest counter-measures against U.S. airpower are increasingly more affordable than the latest U.S. airpower itself!

Price of each average S-300 missile (median price of its battery’s launch vehicle fleet included) : ~ 3,5 million $

Price of a F-15 Strike Eagle: 100 million $
Price of a F-22: 150 million $
Price of a 6th generation fighter: 300 million $ ?

You get the picture. And it will only get worse from now on.

(Continued)

Part 10 / 11

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You wrote: “In Kosovo SEAD was in a stalemate against SAM’s, but now we have newer AGM-88’s that home in on the last known location of a radar site…”

Are you sure it wasn’t another cheap decoy?

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You wrote: “The premier US strike fighters (the F-15E Strike Eagle and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet) have all the agility they need for high-speed, low-level, terrain following, deep penetration strike missions.”

Uh? I thought only the (discontinued) F-111 had all that.

(Continued)

Part 11 / 11

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You wrote: “What more would air superiority fighters need for low-level flight capability? Air combat seldom takes place in that flight regime.”

Lowest-level bomb runs are a clear sign that for some reason you don’t own the sky, and anything might happen – for example an interceptor.

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Forgive me my increasing laconism despite your extensive answer, but since I live in a very different time zone from you I really have to go to sleep now… I don’t even know if I’m going to be able to visit this Web-site again before the weekend, but something tells me that we’ll still see each other very often in the future! I’ve got you in my H.U.D. now.

Bye, see ‘ya!

“1) Weight:
The F-15 C can take up externally 7,3 tons of fuel and / or armament, so I consider the weight problem completely inexistent.”

Weight isn’t an issue. The AN/APG-63(v)2 is heavier than the (v)1 and requires additional ballast in the aft section to keep it’s flight performance optimum. The newer (v)3 is lighter, and doesn’t require ballast. The JHMCS modification is nearly negligible in weight. The various other avionics systems aren’t very heavy either, though I remember an incident back in 2005 where an F-15 fell on it’s tail when avionics maintainers pulled out about 2,000 pounds worth of avionics equipment without anchoring the nose to some ballast.

“2) Money:
Let’s say that one quarter ( 25 % ) of an F-22’s cost goes straight into avionics (“gadgets”) – just for conversation’s sake. That would be 37,5 million $ , out of its unit price of 150 million $ . These avionics worth 37,5 million $ would have to be added to the F-15’s own price of 30 million $ , all of which together amounts to 65 million $ . That’s STILL LESS THAN HALF than the F-22’s unit price!”

The actual cost of an F-22 is still up to debate, even when quoting “official” sources. That said, had production continued the per unit cost would’ve gone down significantly and would’ve only continued to go down. Don’t underestimate the cost of electronic systems. For example the systems onboard the certain other aircraft are so cost prohibitive, that they are actually leased for use on the aircraft, not purchased.

“3) Free inside space
Unfortunately I have no concrete hint, no reference point, no indication, to judge if gutting a F-15 of all its original avionics would provide enough space inside for the complete avionics suite of a F-22.”

I have actually worked on F-15’s and have become well acquainted with it’s internal layout (where I spent a good deal of time), however I’ve never worked on F-22’s. The F-22 has a lot of diagnostic systems onboard the aircraft for ease of maintenance. These wouldn’t be able to be fitted on an F-15 without an incredible amount of internal restructuring, due to the invasive nature of these systems. Not worth the time, cost or effort to upgrade the existing fleet… would be more practical for a new production variant. However looking at the core mission-oriented avionics, most of it is already in place or about to put in place with versions based on the F-22 or superseding component designs. The AN/APG-63(v)3 is the biggest upgrade, set to replace the few AN/APG-63(v)2 AESA radars and the rest of the frontline F-15C’s AN/APG-63(v)1. The (v)2 has SAR, networking, electronic attack capability and high electronic attack resistance. The (v)3 will improve in all of these areas, while being lighter. Most of the frontline F-15C’s are already equipped with the JHMCS upgrade to accommodate the HOBS capability of the AIM-9X, and the F-15E’s have just begun implementing the JHMCS upgrade. The F-22 is planned for the JHMCS upgrade, but has since been deferred. Other less publicized upgrades are to improving the aircraft’s network uplink/downlink capabilities, allowing them to increase compatibility with other different aircraft (such as Navy and NATO aircraft), mainly for the F-15E since it operates in concert with ground forces of varying types. The F-15C’s networking capabilities are more than sufficient for air-to-air combat, thus most of it’s upgrades were for interfacing compatibility.

The 1990 Gulf War saw the employment of the entirety of American cutting edge technology at the time, against an enemy that was, for the most part, militarily on par and numerically superior. Iraqi fighter pilots were regarded to be among the best in the world due to their veteran experience from the preceding Iran-Iraq War two years prior. However it was the strategy and tactics in employing the technology that won the war, not the technology itself.

You know FFB, sometimes brevity is a good thing. I’m going to respond to a few of your ideas however. First, contractors were not just “invented” recently, and there was never some “neocon plot” to rule the world. Second, who says we are rushing to replace manned aircraft? In fact I see more people here on these comment boards proposing that idea than military leaders. Third, both of those scenarios were political decisions, not military ones. And can you say it would have been better to hang around in either situation? We would still be in Somalia right now and the country would still be a third-world hellhole despite how much money and resources we spend trying to move them out of this hell they’ve created.

If the USA falls, Western Europe will certainly go down with us, you say we lack the will, but a look at their societies shows an even greater lack.

The F-117A had a limited production run (64 aircraft), and was retired because the F-22 and F-35 could do it’s job better. The USAF was also making a gamble in order to get more F-22s, a gamble which sadly did not pay off. Also, the F-117A’s stealth features are costlier to maintain than newer designs, and unlike the F-22 and F-35, it has a very specific role and cannot do much outside of that niche.

During the Gulf War we had F-16’s available which had since taken over the SEAD mission, yet we still used the F-4G’s. We still used the B-52’s when the B-1 and B-2 were available. That same war the Marine Corps also still used the M60 against even the T-72, yet the M1 Abrams had already been in service since 1980.

Indeed, we only deploy the very latest.

Hey, ffb!

TL;DR

…Brevity is the soul of wit, and tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes.

( If the board is cutting you off, try a different browser. )

The rest is all politics. But a SLEP wasn’t needed since the airframe structures were still in good condition. The F-117’s were retired because they had such a small payload, whereas an F-22 and F-35 could carry the same and more. The facet-based stealth technology on the F-117’s was surpassed by the B-2 and F-22’s stealth technologies and was more maintenance intensive. That lone combat loss was due to the F-117’s flying the same ingress/egress routes, as well as NATO having lax communications security, making them predictable. The Serbs were able to listen in on pilot conversations with AWACS controllers about their flight plans. They also maintained a visual watch for their flight routes. They then set up their radars to be as close as possible to those flight paths, and operated them on unusually long wavelengths. While this did allow the radar to make the F-117 briefly visible (with it’s facet-based stealth design), it reduces overall effectiveness since they weren’t designed to be operated this way. Had the operations planners varied their flight paths and NATO taken security more seriously, this would’ve been avoided. As Col. Dani (the man credited for the shootdown) said, they made a lot of amateur mistakes.

I wonder what is the motivation for his lengthy diatribes?

You didnt say the U.S. should buy F-15C’s you said “buy Su-35’s” and I quote you:

“That’s why it’s a complete waste to invest in over-expensive fighter bodies like F-22s and F-35s: Just buy more agile Su-35s for a third of their price…”

yes, F-35 will not be able to operate in a heavily contested arispace, it was designed under the premise the F-22 could clear the sky for them. Without a significative number of F-22, the F-35 has no sense.
It is preferably to build only F-22 and none F-35: they will have similar price tag and for contrainsurgence the F-35 is too much expensive.

“The PAK-FA leaves the United States with only one viable option if it intends to remain viable in the global air power game — build enough F-22 Raptors to replace most of the US legacy fighter fleet… the F-35 will no longer be a usable combat aircraft for roles other than Counter Insurgency (COIN), though more cost effective and more appropriate solutions already exist for this role.http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010–01.html

You’re nuts!

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