Who Will Serve, Gates Asks

Who Will Serve, Gates Asks

One of the most sensitive military topics in America remains the growing divide between ordinary Americans and those who serve and fight for their country. Defense Secretary Robert Gates addressed it head –on at Duke University last night.

Gates said the all-volunteer force, “this tiny sliver of America has achieved extraordinary things under the most trying circumstances.  It is the most professional, the best educated, the most capable force this country has ever sent into battle.”

But, Gates added, “this success has come at significant cost. Above all, the human cost, for the troops and their families.  But also cultural, social, and financial costs in terms of the relationship between those in uniform and the wider society they have sworn to protect.”


On Saturday I appeared on a panel with fellow defense journalists Greg Jaffe of the Washington Post and Steven Komorow of the Associated Press, as well as the head of Army public affairs, Thomas Collins, and the Pentagon’s first head of new media, Price Floyd, to discuss whether and why the American public seems to be losing its appetite for military news and how the divide between the public and the all-volunteer force influences our coverage. The venue was the first meeting of the Army Public Affairs Alumni Association held at the Association of the US Army’s headquarters in northern Virginia.

For those of us who deal daily with the military, the idea that there is a divide between the public and the military, and that that gap hinders both the public’s intellectual and emotional understanding of what the military does, how it performs and why it does what it does was pretty much a standing assumption. We all nodded sagely when it was raised and moved on to the nitty gritty of how we cover the military and how they work with us.

Thinking about our reaction to how to deal with the civil-military divide after reading Gates’ speech leaves me all the more convinced that Gates absolutely needed to raise this issue publicly. It is especially pressing as the fiscal crisis facing the government remains essentially unanswered by Congress, and the Defense Department faces grim choices as it presses the fight in Afghanistan and tries to maintain the United States as the preeminent global power.

Gates and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Adm. Mike Mullen have raised the difficult issue of the cost of an all-volunteer force’s pay and benefits a number of times over the last six months. Gates hammered away at it again last night.

“There is also a question – and it is an uncomfortable and politically fraught question – of the growing financial costs associated with an all-volunteer force.  Just over the past decade – fueled by increasing health costs, pay raises, and wartime recruiting and retention bonuses – the amount of money the military spends on personnel and benefits has nearly doubled:  From roughly $90 billion in 2001 to just over $170 billion this year out of a $534 billion budget,” Gates said.

Congress is loathe to even think about thinking about trimming pay or benefits to the troops. Both Democrats and Republicans fall all over themselves to raise pay and increase benefits to both those in uniform and to veterans. As a result of currying favor with vets in particular, Gates noted that health care costs have rocketed up “from $19 billion a decade ago to more than $50 billion this year, a portion of that total going to working-age retirees whose premiums and co-pays have not been increased in some 15 years.”

So we want to maintain the all-volunteer force, Gates said, noting that “the junior and mid-level officers and sergeants in ground combat and support specialties” comprise “the most battle-tested, innovative and impressive generation of military leaders this country has produced in a very long time.” And we shoulder a “sacred obligation” to take care of them and of their families, for they also serve.

But that “but” keeps coming up. How much do we pay them? How generous should their benefits be? And how do we build bridges to our largely urban society from remote bases such as Fort Hood and other largely southern, rural places?

Gates didn’t really offer an answer. He made clear “there is a risk over time of developing a cadre of military leaders that politically, culturally, and geographically have less and less in common with the people they have sworn to defend.” He pushed the idea of service, stressing the national good that can arise from ROTC programs.

He made it personal for those listening to him at Duke, asking: “Will the wise and honest here at Duke [from which one of his closest advisors, Lt. Gen. Emo Gardner, graduated] come help us do the public business of America?” The country must attract such leaders, he said. If they do not serve, “who then can we count on to protect and sustain the greatness of this country in the 21st century?”

His question hangs, begging answers from the White House, Pentagon and Congress.

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Mr. Gates acknowledges the ‘consequences of waging these protracted military campaigns’, but fails to acknowledge the need for a renewed compact with our soldiers that ends extended involuntary deployments, stop loss orders, and repeated frequent call ups of reserve units. There is simply no avoiding the fact that during the past ten years American leadership has been abusing the all-volunteer force.

Good Morning Folks,

I will keep trying to post on the buzz although the last two have died, “Data Base Error”, I know the height of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, but hey I’m a liberal and we are use to being “censored”, mostly because the other side can’t defend their arguments.

So here goes, again.

Most likely I’m the only one around her who served in a conscripted military, so I have the disadvantage of knowing what I’m talking about.

First off breaking the myths. The cold war draftee was the smartest, best disciplined and dedicated soldier the United States has ever had, all the stats back this up. For the record I was Regular Army. They fought in Vietnam with as much or perhaps more valor and self sacrifice as the soldiers of today are in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The draftee is better educated, less political, less ideological and in better physical shape then the soldiers of today are and were as a lot easier to train. During Vietnam the failure rate in BCT was under 10% today it is 17% (2007). This is due of course to many thing but the over all quality of the recruit has declined with the all volunteer force.

Because of shorter enlistments, and fewer married soldiers the draftee can be paid less, and if there is no war involved future veterans benefits are reduced. Lets face it many both men and women join the military today to have their families and to get through the early years of the kids medical expenses. As soon as child baring is done they are looking for a way out.

The draftee also will provide a broader spectrum from the economic classes of American who serve. The problem here of course the higher the income the fewer the children so that eliminates any spares.

The generals like the volunteer force because it provides more ideologically compatible troops to their personal ideological temperaments. Is this cohesiveness or cohesion?

Although conscription has all the advantages over a volunteer force, it is dead in the water politically. The basic argument comes down to this for the middle class and above, your money or your kid. It’s I guess so heart warming that the economic middle class and upper classes still chose their children over money.

Now will this get posted?

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Hey Byron, I have to somewhat disagree with you on some points. As for Nam draftees being smarter, Kids these days are staring geomitry and algebra in the 4th grade, stuff I didnt see till the 9th and that was in 78 so I doubt kids from the 60’s were actualy smarter although I will admitt to them being more mature than the kids serving in the last 20 years without a doubt. The higher attrition rate in basic these days is due mostly to academics, you have to maintain high grades throughout boot camp and MOS schools these days because of all the tedh involved, New coms units make a PRC10 look like 2 cans and a string. We were more physicaly and mentraly fit back in the day. Open bay barracks hardly exist any longer — especialy not after basic, (I spent my first 2 yrs in an open bay — heck couldnt even sleep on the bunk or use pillow and blanket unless you passed hell week: but its a kinder military these days). Most kids borne in the late 70’s and up are a different breed for sure and its getting worse. I worry what the future holds for our military.

Really Byron? Liberals get censored? Colin himself said that whatever your experience is a website problem, not an attempt to censor whatever insane and foolish ideas the left comes up with.

Now what you say contradicts what I know of the Vietnam war and what veterans I have talked to had to say on the matter. Draftees were not of some consistent quality, and their lack of training showed on occasion. Noise discipline was often a problem for example. Yet the Army wanted to maintain most of the regular force over in Europe in case the Red Commie Hordes came rolling over.

“The draftee is better educated, less political, less ideological and in better physical shape then the soldiers of today are”

What are you smoking? No offense to any who served in Vietnam, but the quality of our training today is far better than what the average draftee got back in the 1960s and early 1970s. Just look at how the National Guard has changed since they 1980s in terms of their role and equipment. Your average draftee today is not “better educated, less political, less ideological, and in better physical shape” than today’s active soldiers. They would take just as much training to shape into soldiers as today’s volunteers who you evidently think are stupid.

Many soldiers, marines, etc. like to say their squad, platoon, company, battalion, regiment, or division is the best in the force. Many guys I know who served back in the 1980s were convinced the quality of the Army was at it’s peak then. Yet the soldiers and marines fighting today certainly show just as much courage as their predecessors.

Conscription certainly has it’s values and historically has been necessary in major wars. Yet maintaining a very small volunteer force and expecting to conscript your way up to strength in time of conflict is not wise in this day and age. Quality suffers.

Why serve when the highest office refuses to allow the family of an MOH winner and an actual MOH winner to tour the Whitehouse, a tour that is offered to the general public. If our own CIC and his house does not respect the brave men and women who are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for our country day in and day out, how can we expect someone to stand tall to the task?

The interesting thing is that volunteer army is from the bottom 20% of the white economic pool and the top 20% of the black one. It’s not that surprising — since both are looking for a way out in a labor market in which they cannot compete: one for educational and the other for race reasons.

It’s well known that conscript part of any army is better than the volunteer part. It isn’t just Vietnam it’s been true for a long time. And It’s also common for the volunteers to feel threatened when they guys they couldn’t compete against in the outside, turn up in their closed world. Of course they don’t tell you this in the recruitment brochure.

But the chances of conscription are zero because they aren’t real wars they are much more like elaborate PR campaigns gone terribly wrong. Designed to use 911 to curry political favor with short sweet victories that would pay for themselves it has turned into a colossal rolling disaster. It’s like watching an airship company trying sell tickets by re-enacting the Hindenburg disaster every evening. Is it any wonder that the women that Bush brought in to sell America to the world resigned for health reasons — she’ll probably need years of therapy to get over the experience.

You so often hear that welfare spending should be cut so that military budgets are maintained in our imploding economy. But for most Americans the military are the largest welfare recipients, and they neither wish to join their ranks nor fund their profligate social engineering programs.

That is just so wrong. It is people just like you that have torn this country down to what is now is. And you definately have no ideal of the quality of people and thier backgrounds that serve in our military. You and your most (NON) Americans you mentioned that are against us are free to leave any time you want and that in itself would be an improvement. (would probably reduce welfare and pole smoking greatly as well).

Good Afternoon BOOMER,

Lets see. I agree with you about kids taking more advanced classes in Middle and Hight School. at least in many areas of the country. But if you look at the south eastern and deep south parts of the United States the schools are not that good, academics are low, and drop out rates high. The problem BOOMER is that this is where most of the enlistments and ROTC officers come from. The kids taking algebra in the 6th. Grade are not going to end up in the military. The high school students who scores in the top 20% on the ACT test and have taken Advanced Placement Classes in HS are not going to Podunk U because they have an ROTC program.

Don’t get me wrong BOOMER most of the will make good Soldiers/Sailor/Marines and fine dependable officers , but that’s not enough for what is being expected by the all volunteer military.

Civilian contractors still have to go to sea with the Navy to maintain and supervise the operation of many systems, civilian contractor still have to be with Patriot Batteries to oversee operations and maintenance, civilian contractors still over see ordinance handling for the USAF. I would even imagine that on SSN’s and SSBN’s their are still civilian contractors needed for service and support of weapons and other systems, and the Bubble Heads are suppose to be the best of the best.

For those that doubt how good the draftees of the Cold War/Vietnam era were, there are a number of books as well as a throve of statistics on this to support what I said. The standard of intelligence for the military is the AFEE it has been given to over 25 million men and women since 1916. In the 1950’s the only significant change was made to the test when the a standard deviation method was instituted for every 10 points and the base was shifted on SD to the right. This was done because from the 1930’s to the 1950’s HS Graduation rate doubled.

In broad terms the average draftee scored in the 105–110 range during the Cold War and Vietnam. today the average AFEE score is between 95–100 till 2004, when a lot of exemptions were made. Since 2004 the score have been harder to obtain but it appears from what we can see is that the bottom has dropped to a 90 for acceptance into the US military.

Military’s cost money. Cannon fodder is getting more expensive, these are factors that should be on the top of every Presidents list when they are looking at engaging in wars that have nothing to do with the defense of the United States or any vital national/economic interest. The current war(s) now going on into ten years have been for nought, no threats to the US put down, no viable national/economic interest involved, the cost $3.5 trillion, over 4,200 lives over 13,000 wounded and the meter is still running.

If the goal is to curb defense spending maybe this should be the place to start.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Isn’t it time for your nap?

Oblat, do you have some links to credible sources to back up those numbers?

The “smartness” of the Vietnam era soldier comes from the fact that a lot of men in the late 60s draft pool were college graduates whose deferments ran out. It was a weird time because you had a large number of NCOs without college degrees who were becoming officers through OCS, a sizable number of junior enlisted who were college educated and a good bit more intelligent than the mustangs who commanded them, and crusty senior NCOs on their second or third tour trying to stay alive and hold the unit together. That combination, as much as the race and drug problems, almost destroyed the Army as an institution and baked in contempt for junior officers that took years to overcome. We had a lot of smart kids come in during the early 80s on account of the economic downturn, but that is a very different story altogether.

I don’t think the demographic you cite is at all correct. I’ve commanded kids from Appalachia, the Los Angeless barrio, and inner city Baltimore. One benefit that military service has for all of them is that it gives not only educational benefits but also a great deal of technical and management training. Where you are dealing with disadvantaged groups, this is huge for affirmative action, and a source of pride. One reason I am very fond of our late 70s cohorts is that these kids — the ones who weren’t addicted to drugs and who didn’t get in trouble with the law — these kids really worked their rear ends off to put the Army back together and they pulled themselves up by the bootstraps in that process. In some respects, the Regular Army has always been like that, back into the 1800s. At the Battle of Gettysburg, it was said of the regular army troops who fought in the Wheatfield that before, they taught the volunteers how to be soldiers but then (on July 2, 1863) they “taught them how to die”. It takes a very special man or women to do this for 30 years.

The GT score is essentially the same as an IQ score, and therefore normalized at 100. So the idea of the average being 105–110 strikes me as quite odd, since that would imply that the Army was actually drafting mostly college graduates back then…the normal level to qualify for West Point Prep or OCS is 110. We were working with troops in the 90–100 range back in the late 70s. A Soldier with a GT score of 90 is trainable but learns more slowly and needs more sustainment training (to keep from forgetting what he or she has learned). The one thing you can’t train is morality. You can have bad smart soldiers and good dumb soldiers just because the former has an attitude problem and a chip on his soldier, and the less intelligent soldier is dedicated and tries like hell. Give me that second soldier any day, and I’ll make an NCO out of him and eventually get him through his GED, even graduate from college.

Christians should consider leaving military service and reconsider joining. Should we support a government and society whose official policy is to deny the reality, sovereignty and Lordship of Jesus. I dare any of you serving soldiers to publically proclaim the name of Jesus.

It’s time to give the nation up to judgement…

Today just as during the heigth of Nam, we have volunteers, true patriots and those who join just to have ajob as well. Like the bulk of the Marine Corps, Highly educated, compared to WWII, and some barely out high school and that was the enlisted that enlisted at such high rates that boot camp had to be started 3 months and more after enlistment. I know by first hand that many of the jobs for enlisted during nam required a gct/iq of 130 or more, actually higher than required for OCS or the academies. the problem will ony begin to slack if the powers in DC that make the wars, through thier inefficient and failed diplomacy, allow these Citizen Warriors to fight and paln as they are trained to do. Far too many in DC adhere to the old clique of men dying for their country. We were trained to make the opposition die for their beliefs if they tried to force them on us our our neighbors or allies. DC considers the military as Cannon Fodder and has for decades, probably since the misnamed American Civil War. A major shake up in DC is the answer and I pray that the American voter hands it to them 2 Nov 2010, or all is lost.

Please keep your *(insert appropriate holy book) away from OUR Constitution.

“Today’s military is washed up. Pathetic. Poorly disciplined. and Not fit to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.”

I would love to know what our nation’s enemies would think of that comment. Oh wait… they’re all dead or in hiding.

Our country’s current armed forces are the most effective killing machine ever unleashed upon the planet.

I understand that many of you do not understand the generation that now wears the uniform. I also understand that many of you are convinced that you had it far worse than we current soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen will ever experience.

That’s cool, if you have ever worn the uniform you are entitled to your opinion. We do not expect you to understand us.

All we ask is that when YOU turn off the light and go to sleep at night in your oh so warm and comfortable bed, please remember that it is us (the ones you don’t understand and belittle) that are out there keeping your wrinkled old butt safe at night.

Show some respect for a real soldier…

The founding fathers read many holy books including the Koran. Quit pretending that OUR Constitution was a purely secular creation. The separation of Church and State was a reference to the Church or England influencing government policy, not an opine against metaphysical beliefs.

EPLURBIS UNIM! IN GOD WE TRUST!

I’m terribly sorry that you’ve gotten the wrong impression from my post.

I was trying to highlight the error of using a religion’s ancient holy text as a basis for a modern government. Iran makes a great example of why this is not such a good idea.

Leviticus?

Good Evening Folks,

Bill R. you said a lot and for the most part I agree with you. I did BCT at Ft. Polk in 1965, and I would say that the majority of the Draftees has at least two years of college, many had their degree and one guy in our training company had actually finished the class work of Medical School and was drafted while waiting for his state license to start his residency. What ever the reason, and the stats bare this out the draftee in general was pretty bright.

On you statements on how the military squares people away, I can’t disagree their but and huge but. I don’t think the military is a social service institution. If somebody gains for the experience of serving in the military thats all to the good, but its not a core mission of the military.

Even though many recruits can and do turn their lives around there are just as many or more who come in screw ups and eventually will leave the military as screw ups.

Just a side story that “doesn’t means nottin’ “. The LA Times a while back did a story on how gang members were joining the Marines and using the Marine Corp and there combat experience in Iraq as training for gang soldiers. There is documentation that there are former members of the military in the Mexican Cartels.

The Drug problem of the 60’s and 70’s. The military has always had substance abuse issues since the Revolutionary Army of 1775. It is no coincidence that one of the first problems that George Washington had as President was the Whisky (Whiskey) Rebellion and that it was former soldiers who made up the majority of the “farmer” who rebelled.

The drug problem didn’t start in Vietnam, but came to Vietnam from the American street. Since drugs were not unknown in SE Asia guys from the street corner and the “cowboys” were bound to find each other.

My brother was in the 18th. MP Bdge., 716th Military Police Bn., 52ed. infantry in Saigon in 1970–71 and one of the jobs of his platoon was to patrol the allies of Saigon each morning and scrape up the dead American who went AWOL and tried to hit it big in the drug business. They found more the a few.

The standard operating procedure was to take the body bags to Tan-Sou-Nhut turn them over to the Air Force who ran the morgue. They would be ID’ed, if they had a clean record up till the time of their going AOL from their unit, a fake report was written up tell about a brave soldier, a Bronze Star would be awarded and the “hero” sent home.

For the bodies who had problems in life and it would be impossible to hide, well we have the MIA issue.

The heart of the problem in the early days was a failure of command to recognize the problem and to deal with it. It also true that many officers also were engaged in the use, transportation and sales of drugs. Drugs corrupted the entire military.

The drug problem has not gone away in the military. Stories of returned service members abound with tales of the availability of illegal drugs in Afghanistan and in Iraq. The presence of copious amounts of $100.00 bills in the communities around and near deployment bases when troop return form a combat deployment are obvious to all. Considering the military no longer pays in cash makes it all the more troublesome.

ALLONS

Byron Skinner

Latin reference correction: e pluribus unum means “out of many, one.” In God We Trust is on our currency. Separation of church and state is necessary to remain objective. Unfortunately, the world does not operate under objective constraints. Therefore, the Bible is the perfect book to provide subjective guidance regarding how one should treat another. Last, by removing secular concepts from society one loses the conceptual basis for right and wrong, ethical and unethical.

You can see from the comments that today’s army really has a culture of not addressing the core issues. It’s been that way for a while, the luxury of a leading economy and being able to lose wars without any consequence for a century.

But things are changing. Not only is there less money but our allies are unwilling to bankroll adventurism the way they did in the past. Gone are the days that Japan would pay for the whole war the way they did the first gulf war. Today they send just a token force waving flags just so we don’t lose face.

The main reason is that all economies are adapting to the rise in China by becoming more efficient. The only one that isn’t is the US one. Instead we have decided to distract ourselves with military adventures. Our choice is to effectively put an additional military tax on our industry making it even less competitive. Monet that would be much better spent on infrastructure and education.

At the end of the day, China will be the new America, the Europeans and Asians will have leaped ahead and we will be sitting around wondering what happened wile we were all just singing “I did it my way”.

A lot of American Christians are poor and badly educated, they don’t have that many options. They see the military as their only way out.

Byron, welcome back. I enjoy seeing your posts — but you’re pretty off base this time. You simply don’t fully understand how our troops operate or the conditions in which they are operating.

OK, first, I’m an old guy who remembers the Vietnam war and has known an awful lot of vets from everything from WW2 to now. And I got a combat badge in Afghanistan — and I have a post-doctoral professional education. I also have known soldiers who served not only in Vietnam ALSO in the current Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

To put it simply, today’s soldiers are better. You can argue as to why, but given the type of conflict and conditions they are surprisingly disciplined and capable. You take conscripts from high school right now and we’ll have to kick their butts back out of the military — today’s military takes intelligence, determination, and a time commitment at a level which has seldom been seen. The WW2 vets who’d been in for several years would tend to achieve that level of warfighting ability but without the same level of restraint (I’ve had plenty of WW2 vets tell me of the war crimes they committed and the level at which they were common)..

There are plenty of cases of ill-behavior on the part of our current troops — but there are a lot of exaggerations as well. And a significant part of the problems lie not with the enlisted but with the officers. With all their faults, today’s average enlisted is better than most people understand. They are fighting a war which is both nastier and more technical than most understand. They are fighting in an environment which is more different than most CAN understand — but a lot of our soldiers understand it much better than those who choose the war strategy and ROEs under which they fight.

I’m sure there are many who will disagree with me. Well, you’ve got a right to your opinion, but there are few who have been positioned to hear the stories I’ve been told and to know the veterans and soldiers at the same level. I’m not saying that I’m any sort of hero, genius, or anything like that — but in some respects I’m very unusually experienced and able to make a judgment in this matter.

Have at it. I won’t likely visit this thread again. I’m already a bit bored by it.

>I would love to know what our nation’s enemies would think of that comment. Oh wait… they’re all dead or in hiding.

This is hardly a mystery. Osama has said many times that he thinks the US is a paper tiger. The Taliban — largely a bunch of farmers fighting for a bit of extra cash part time — is confident they will win. The Pakistanis are already well ahead in planning for what they consider our inevitable loss. And even Patreus says we cant win in Afghanistan.

The loss of military prestige has been very significant. We go around telling ourselves and everybody how great we are but they don’t see much evidence of it.

The notion of a permanent standing army was swallowed by the founding fatrhers with a good amount of nose-holding. Even that minimal establishment was ‘nickle and dimed’ through most of its existence. Even during America’s Civil war a differential existed between “regulars” and “volunteers” in terms of pay, rank and even deployments.

World War 2 was the great leveller that removed many distinctions between the two, instituting a permanent draft for regular service. Vietnam ‘broke’ the draft system and an all-volunteer force, mated with increasing use of voluntary ‘citizen-soldier’ (viz NG) units for regular deployment, defined the ‘new’ army. What has changed lately is the pay scale, training and equipment costs and more importantly, a ‘wartime’ expenditure — the proverbial American logistics tail. This latter has ballooned out of any historic proportion to the force it supplies.

That to-day’s military are better equipped than any intimes past is a no-brainer, that they are more effective is an arguable point. They have never been tried by another first-rate force and have had a demonstrable lack of success in countering assymetric, or insurgent forces. This is perhaps the greatest ‘cost’, for a protracted war state, favored by the military, cannot, apparently be fought with any applied economy.

What’s being fought here is the economic equivalent of two WW2’s with less clear objectives, value of outcome or apparent success. It seems to be a very expensive ‘learn-by-doing exercise’ with little progress, even less prospect of a positive outcome and a very real possibilty of morphing into a regional struggle that the US is not currently mobilized (or equipped?) to handle.

The problems you describe are systemic military problems. No government since 1945 has been able to touch the military in fair times,or foul wiuth a view to making it more efficient, or even more proficient outside its own narrow set of definitions.

It doesn’t matter what happens in November, other than to tone down/increase the amount of grousing coming out of the military. The waste, and applied stupidity, will maintain.

Where do you think, “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition” came from?
Hint: It wasn’t the Salvation Army.

Hey I work at a powerplant. The nucs run this industry. I am the only guy here that went to a maratime academy. everyone else comes from the military. I spent five in the Corps, and seven in the guard. We took over a country with two division’s, no contractors. You give me a current Armored birgade, and I will hand you the world. Thats how an underachieving volunteer feels, we won, you conscripts lost in Veitnam and lost North Korea to China.

Here’s an idea: Go and see for yourselves. Liberals crack me up, you’re the first ones to want socialized medicine and welfare and talk about underprivileged populations, and then you roll into calling the military a welfare system for lazy, stupid people. Hypocrisy. Gates is right, there’s a huge rift growing between those that serve and those that won’t. Those that WON’T like to point out how “unethical” it is to serve the very country which guarantees them the rights they take for granted every moment of their lives. They like to pretend that THEY are the ones actually safeguarding those same rights by protesting or writing little blurbs on blogs about the evil government abusing its power. That’s funny, and the joke is on all of us. Liberals should know the term “self-fulfilling prophecy”, it’s taught to them in school. I know that because I’ve got a liberal education. Think about what you’re saying before you shoot your mouth off about things you can’t understand. You want to be the expert? Go and see it firsthand. Have the nuts to go forth and change the world, or sit and be quiet while others do so.

Wow, categorizing today’s volunteers as being from uneducated masses (What political hypebole!)? Not quite. Check Recruiting Command stats, our volunteers today are better educated than at anytime in the past. Sure there were some anomalies during Vietnam such as my Basic Tng Pltn, of which I had the least formal education (my AA). Most had BA’s, MA’s and PhD’s. Check with your local USMC Recruiters, there are waiting lists up to four months long to get a training seat, they’re only accepting the cream of the crop. Our troops today are second to none.

Good Morning Folks,

Since management has rationed the number of post, it doesn’t appear to be a universal rule, I can put I will use todays here.

HasBeen. I don’t see where we disagree on much. Contrary to popular myth most conscripted soldiers post WW II Cold War/Vietnam ear before 1969 were in fact into their 20’s when drafted. In 1969 in order to fill the butchers bill for Vietnam they went after 19 year olds.

As far as war crime stories from Vets goes, well most are just that stories or outright lies. The popular one making the rounds out here in the late 90’s was “having to put the barrel of an M-16 into a Viet Cong’s mouth and pull the trigger”. After awhile even the PTSD folks at the VA caught on that there is no documentation that this ever happened. You also have to remember the rules of engagement that were in effect during Vietnam that are very different then today.

When I was in country there ROE was rather simple if you wounded somebody they we VC suspects, if you killed them they were VC. If you were in a free fire zone, which was basically any area where US troops were conducting operations, it was assumed that every human being was VC period. Sweeps with recon by fire were used as a matter of routine, and the Search and Destroy, to be taken literary, was a typical Platoon/Company operation.

Soldiers/Marines today would be appalled and rightly so if they were ordered into a Vietnam type of operational ROE.

By the way to all you ideologs out there I do not condone how we fought the war in Vietnam, but I make no apology for the soldiers who fought in Vietnam, we were fighting the war that the American people of the era wanted.

As far as the quality of todays troops, standards have been lowered, accused and even some convicted felons are serving in the military and in the war zones and as indicated by another post there are members of the military with test scores of 90, they are considered trainable. Standards have to be improved, what is going to have to happen to this is the question.

This is my rationed post for today, back tomorrow.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Bywrong, I too came into the military during the days of conscripts and you are dead wrong. The draftees served as well as conscripts can be expected to perform. The level of training, technology, discipline required for today’s combat operations exceeds the capability of draftees. The discipline problems we had with draftees was legend. The WWV guys fought well despite the piss poor political leadership (JFK, LBJ, McNamara, Brown, et​.al) they were saddled with and the current warriors are equally brave. The real answer is a change in security strategy by dealling with IW/COIN/Hybrid War with partnerships, alliances, covert action and NOT mass “boots on the ground” and re-aligning the DOD to deal with the high-end of the ROMO. Reduce the size of land forces and re-invest in an aerospace/naval strategy that is more effective and affordable for the looming threat.

Byron,

PUHLEEZE! While DoDBuzz is an enormously powerful place, we are not evil or sophisticated enough to muzzle you or anyone else who abides by the site\‘s requirements that comments avoid personal nastiness and that they pertain to the topic covered in the story. I think we have finally fixed whatever screwiness was vaporizing comments. Fingers crossed! BTW, whenever I travel with other defense reporters one of the first questions I get is — who is Bryon Skinner! They even know your sign-off. You are almost part of the brand! Cheers,
Colin

Don’t worry, I am sure that if the USA gets invaded, many young man will stand up and sissy-slap every enemy soldier, just like they do to each other on Maury and Jerry and Steve on TV, each day. Afterall, not one of them has ever actually been in a real fist-fight, anyway. Instead of worrying about what the military is or will be like, you should be worried what America will be like. More like some 3rd world country, which most of America does, today!

Part 3 / 3

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You wrote: “Reduce the size of land forces and re-invest in an aerospace/naval strategy that is more effective and affordable for the looming threat.”

It’s being tried right now: “Driving out the Talibans” of their tribal regions with drone attacks… If it works, you should try to defend South Vietnam again, but this time only with remote-controlled model planes.

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(Why do I often REALLY feel like watching Charlie Chaplin movies when I navigate away from “D.o.D. Buzz”‘s discussion forums?)

To Darth Censor

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “I think we have finally fixed whatever screwiness was vaporizing comments”

LOL !

If I wanted to make an experiment and merely REPOST any of Byron’s, “pfcern”‘s or “Trophy”‘s longer and integrally preserved posts RIGHT NOW , I would have to saw it into 6 – 10 slim paragraphs, even if I don’t add an iota! Sometimes I can’t even post 600 characters (out of the publicly announced “2.500”) at once, forcing me to send them as a ridiculous sequence of two 300-characters posts, too! I bet that if I sent only TWEETS to you ( = 140 characters max), even these would have to be fine-sliced to slip under “D.o.D. Buzz”‘s door! And each day the pendulum swings lower, it seems…

(Continued)

How do you figure Byron??!! I won’t knock any warrior from any war, especially Vietnam, but Vietnam War draftees were not better than today’s warriors?

Smarter has more to do with the decline of public schools on this end of the historical spectrum, but aptitude higher according to ASVAB scores. We certainly have a broader cross-section of American society serving today.

More committed? I was active duty when draftees were still around. Yes some, but not all, were committed giving excellent service to the armed forces and the country for two or three decades.

Better physical shape? Have you been around MCRD-Parris Island lately? Log on to their site and check out how they continue to raise the bar on drill instructors, physical training instructors and recruits alike. Don’t forget required body mass indexes in all services either.

Finally, I was a veteran 30 years ago who served with men of high intellectual and psychological standards and as a DOD civilian specialist today who served with today’s active duty personnel in Iraq. We don’t need a draft. We just need good citizens who will commit when they are needed.

Byron, I continue to repeat the same thing; show me the data!

Byron, I’m worried that you’ll miss my earlier reply, so I’ll say it again; show me the data.

You’re an extremely well-written contributor to the site, but I have seen you make unsupported statements multiple times, with absolutely no citations to back them. I don’t question your in-service experience, but when you make a quantitative statement about recruit statistics, they need to be supported by fact.

I don’t think I’m being unreasonable.

Post-RMA (Revolution in Military Affairs) forces are built towards absolutely crushing a symmetric, conventional enemy. Democracies are similarly built towards short-term wars executed violently. The best counter-insurgency strategy for a nation with both of these qualities is to find a non-military solution.

In short, I agree.

You’re looking at a very different Europe then I am.

Unintelligible and uninsightful.

The draft-era military was a shambles. Draftees don’t want to be there.

WHile the contractors do vacuum up money, they are not around int he numbers Byron says they are. I know, I’m a Patriot Missile soldier.

Draftees are a slave army, made for fighting 19th century wars.

Even an E-1 is confronted with technology that would stump a LTC 20 years ago.

A draft would break the Army, flooding it with recruits who lack motivation, fitness and willingness to serve.

It a dream of the cost cutters, but they cut the costs and we pay the price.

It’s a dream of the left, a return to the draft riots and the marches of the 60’s. When rich white kids could get drafted, they became hippies.

We have at least 3–4 washouts in basic, that’s from people who want to be there. Draftess were poor performers.

Force citizenship and service down the throat of someone who doesn’t want it, he’ll vomit it out.

Thanks for breaking it hero.

The cold war is over. They need to stop whining and listening to panels made of retirees ho collect 6–7 figure speaking fees for being blue falcons to their former battle buddies.

I read your posts regarding the military. I believe we should simply consider Secretary Gate’s question: “Who will serve?” We need to determine how to convince more military officers to run for public office. I believe wholeheartedly in leadership by example. Many of our best and brightest will not serve because there is no social support for the military. The number of America’s politicians that have served in the military is too low. This should be addressed by asking senior military officers whether or not they would choose public service as an elected official.

The Enron’s way of life is over! This is not the greatness of this country but the criminality of this country.

Where the myth about the conscript army being better that the volunteer come from???
The only advantage the conscript army had over the voluntary force was numbers for a attrition war.The last attrition war was the Civil War,

Good Morning Folks,

To @Earlydawn. The data and stats are out their as well as a number of books. Since every time I put up sources other posters use it to hammer at me often with questionable sources. Since I no longer get the post and have other things I will let you mine your own data and stats. and post, and then I can hammer at you, if I like.

To FFB. I salute you on you conspiracy thoughts. In honor of you I lunched with some friends yesterday. It was a nice sunny day and we lunched outside. They brought from their grapes over some first press new vintage anb I had a basket of Baguettes and a kilo of Brie. The wine was, well it will be OK for the table, but not much more, but it was right for the day. All we needed was for Bruno to come by in his old white van.

A note on the posting “Hill Seeks Fix for ‘Broken’ Interagency.” This is nothing more the maneuvering around for 2012 and laying the blame for the failures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Military or the Politicians. No big deal. I think Colin made way to much of it.

On to the topic at hand. We have worked to death the Drafted Army vs. the Volunteer Army. The Politicians and the American people are sold on the volunteer military and until we are face again with a World War or a Vietnam war wher the butchers bill is going to be to high to be supported by a volunteer, it will be as Sir John said in Henry IV: “…they are good enough to feed the powder, no need to send in their betters.”

Let me take a different tack. So far, the discussion largely has been about conscription vs.volunteer soldiers, viz., Army troops. I’d posit that you have to seperate the motives ands career ambitions of individuals who volunteer for the three Services. The objectives are different, and the discipline is different in each Service.

In the Army, the man is the weapon system (boots on the ground!), and you equip him with his individual weaponry and back him up with artillery and armor. The enlisted soldiers and the junior officers do the fighting and dying, while the more senior officers direct the conflict from positions of relative safety. The discipline is based on instilling an almost Pavlovian response in the enlisted men, so that they will carry on despite being exhausted, out of water and possibly food, haven’t slept, are scared, and still will respond to orders that can mean death or disfiguring wounds. In wartime, a clear majority of the conscripts will end up in the Army’s combat arms (Infantry, Armor, ArtilleryAviation).

In the Navy, the ship is the weapons system, the skipper is God, and the mission is to fight the ship and risk life and limb in damage control if the ship is hit. Except i rare cases, the Navy IS staffed with volunteers, and with relatively few conscripts in wartime. Discipline is focused on maintaining the ship, fighting the ship and damage control. Unlike the Army, while at sea, Everyone gets shot at — - from the Skipper to the rating in the engine room.

In the Air Force, the aircraft or the missile is the weapons system, the officers do the fighting and dying and the enlisted folk do the maintaining. Discipline is focused on getting the aircraft ready for flight and the missile prepared for launch. Thefact that the crew chief’s hair might be a little long, or his (or her) shoes not shined isn’t as important as knowing that the crew chief has been on the ramp since 2:00 am getting the bird ready for takeoff.

So, how does this affect the “volunteer vs conscription” argunents? IMO, it boils down to a serious discussion as to whether we either want or need to return to the draft, and if so, how will the mandatory influx of today’s high school and junior college youngsters fit into each of the Services.

(YES! I’ve left out the Marines in this rant, as they’re a breed apart, both in the training every Marine undergoes, and their unique cohesion both on active duty and beyond)’

My comments are based on having served in the Army and Air Force for over thirty years, hacving gone through both CMTC and ROTC training before Pearl Harb, and watching my sons, grandsons and a granddaughter serve our nation.

“The draftee is better educated, less political, less ideological and in better physical shape then the soldiers of today are and were as a lot easier to train. During Vietnam the failure rate in BCT was under 10% today it is 17% (2007). This is due of course to many thing but the over all quality of the recruit has declined with the all volunteer force.”

I recall a Vietnam vet talking about his Rifle Qualifications experience back in BCT. The lieutenant called forth all those that had gone to college before, to paraphrase “Listen up. We figure you college guys are smart enough to follow instructions. Here they are: No one, repeat, no one in this company shoots less than Marksman. Got that? No one gets less than a Marksman. And since you guys are the judges, all of you will be Experts. Repeat, all of you will be Experts because you will be judging each other.”

If that was Rifle Qualification, then I can only imagine what the rest of BCT was like.

So, basically, your answer is “find my data yourself”? Do you think that is a reasonable basis for factual debate?

The question I have for people who want to “reduce the size of the land forces” is:

1. What are your strategic objectives ? and
2. Where do the reductions end.

I believe that we successfully proved that taking the Army to 10 division equivalents (this would be about 40 brigades) in the post-Cold War era results in a pretty challenging OPTEMPO, with not much margin for error. Ultimately, power projection means expeditionary forces on the ground. Nice it is to fantasize about maritime conflict in the Western Pacific, and there is a place for that sort of thing, most real life contingencies have the Army do something.

One has to admit: Colin Clark knows the stuff he writes about, and beyond, but as moderator of a “young” Internet discussion forum he’s a casting catastrophe: Self-centered, capricious, partial, pernicious.

Problematic.

Just like the choice of this new format for his Web-site.

Think of having your own blog one day. Even unannounced, it will be a huge success! Just call it “Byron Skinner & Crowd” and let us all in, creating at utmost two “safe language on” / “safe language off” modes, or some feature like “Show comments rated at least (x) points”, etc., etc., for the sake of the “ooh so touchy”. Ahh, I’ve got my head BUBBLING with ideas about how to create THE PERFECT Internet discussion forum, and with so many unemployed software engineers today…

Till then: The contras of still looking into “this place” are clearly starting to outweigh the pros!

Raises the question — is there some sore of special “Byron Skinner Interface” to this blog that lets him post material twice the size of what the rest of us can squeeze in ? I don’t know how many times I’ve had to snip my stuff to get it in — could it be that some of Byron’s posts get vaporized ’cause they’re just plain too long ? Inquiring minds want to…know.

Good Morning Folks,

Well I using my “posting allocation” for Sunday here. If you noticed yesterdays it end abruptly, I was cut off, when I went back and tried to finish my post I received the following. “Word Press>Error” “You are posting comments too quickly slow down” (note the grammar is that of mil​.com)

Sorry folks this is not a computer glitch, since I also have got

the same message over on defense tech. I will mention what a reader posted to me last night who wanted to know what I said in the omitted section, the reader is in the eastern time zone and I assume that he/she is employed in the DC area.

The reader among other things used the phrase infra-commercials to describe mil​.com.… the message to me from them was childish…a sign that things at mil​.com are not going well…etc.

I will leave it at that.

To @Earlydawn. Yes. Find your own data, I did.

To Trophy. Although what you have is a story from someone most likely not there, I will let it stand on it’s own. But a clue to its truthfulness, during that era in question Train Fire was not under the control of the BCT company commander, I would find it hard that any training group would be so blatant and cavalier in this type of thing, It would result in a Courts Martial.

By the mid 60’s Army BCT was taken very serious, everybody could assume that they were going to end up in Vietnam as Infantry and the weekly killed in action number, often over a thousand always in the hundreds, was posted in every BCT company bulletin board.

One of the first exercises upon reaching you BCT platoon was that the DI would call up 10 recruits and tap four to go back then he would say out of ten Infantrymen these men will either be killed or seriously wounded. It sent a powerful message.

The problem here is NOT the Trainee, but with the chain of command. You are saying that the Lt. didn’t take Vietnam seriously, I personally find that hard to believe because that Lt. could find some of these guys in his platoon in a few month in “Nam”. BCT Company Commander often was only a holding spot for new 2nd. Lt’s waiting for orders to Vietnam.

I have no doubt that there were and in fact still are such officers in the US Army.

To Gray Eagle, I don’t see any real disagreement, you have restated what I’ve seen hundreds of times as the missions of the military. The only thing I would add is that in WW II and during Vietnam the Marines did take “draftees”, I’m not sure about Korea.

Note to Bill R. You pose a question that the reader did last night. The military has run out of volunteers who meet the pre 2004 enlistment requirements. If the score cut was at 95 instead of 90 and wavers for drug and legal problems there wouldn’t be enough recruits to meet current force levels. The future even looks darker.

In 1991 the expected blip in births occurred but by the Census of 2000 it has disappeared. In short the recruitment window of 18–25 year old has a smaller population then expected to draw from.

Other population problems are that the two largest recruiting states Texas and California are now minority/majority in this age group. I’ve seen Marine Boot Companies out of the parade deck being drilled in Spanish, and I’ve been told that some training material “unofficially’ is being printed in Spanish and there are now Spanish Language Power Point presentations being used in some training posts.

Right now the question is reduce the size of the military and reinstate the former requirements and accept reduced numbers of recruits or keep the standards low and even lower and tell the military they have to work with what they are getting. So Bill R. strategic objects are really not a determining factor.

To @Earlydawn you may want to start with “Statistical Abstract of the United States 2010, 129th. edition and then move on to the BLS and their labor forecast statistics.

Yesterday I obtained from an estate a large number of FM’s/TM’s from the 1941–1948 era, most on weapons, mine warfare and vehicles etc. On document in the batch is a reprint from the Infantry Journal dated 1943 its title: “Weapons for the Future: Arms Development for a Modern Army” some chapter headings are, “The Enemy in Stalemate”, “Poverty in Plenty”, “The War that Could Not Be”, “The Bow Without a String”, “Sling in Hand and Specific Problems of Arms Procurement”. I haven’t read it yet, but it promises to be interesting.

Finally a book recommendation. A British Novel “The House with the Blue Shutters” by Lisa Hilton. I’ve been asked to do a review of this for a literary publication, as of July it was not yet available in the US, I got my copy from a German Book seller, but if you are interested in the French resistance in WW II and the German/Franco/Anglo relationships this is a good read.

Well till tomorrow, on the shaky assumption this goes through.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Where to go with this ? Well, let me start with Hispanics. In my experience, Hispanics — and I especially mean Mexican-Americans. are highly disciplined and hard working soldiers. Of all ethnic groups, they are the least prone to malingering and backtalk. Language can be a problem, but bilingualism is just not Army. Lots of Hispanics get sent to English as a Second Language, and that’s okay with me. Illegal immigration is actually not (or should not be) an issue, since the US Army has always accepted foreign nationals, and military service is certainly a valid road to citizenship. At the risk over over doing word count, I will render my other comments in a second reply.

The second question has to do with ends versus means in force structure. Personally, I have no issue with drafting people into the reserve components, but I also would like to see the active force become more self-sustaining, which was a deliberate vulnerability baked into the Volunteer Force in a misguided attempt to limit its overseas deployability. Bad policy. The bottom line is that we know what the end state parameters are — an active army between 425,000 and 475,000. Within those parameters, you need to generate between 36 and 40 brigade combat teams or 10 division equivalents. If you have to reach into IRR or reserve callups to get these numbers, you lose. If you try to shiv thee requirements in a misguided attempt at parsimony, you lose. What we need to be doing is to give the people who are currently serving our country in uniform a soft landing, and we need to own up to the costs — financial, human, and performance costs — of what needs to get done here. Whining about GT score averages simply does not help. The easiest thing Gates can do at the present moment is limit accessions and impose stop loss. Happy now ?

To the poster “Bill R.”

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “Raises the question — is there some sore of special “Byron Skinner Interface” to this blog that lets him post material twice the size of what the rest of us can squeeze in?”

Colin Clark doesn’t drop a hint on it, nor does Byron Skinner himself mutter a single word about it.

I would say:
1) “Interface” yes,
2) “prolific-universal-military-expert-Byron-Skinner-who-always-defies-us-to-reveal-our-true-names”… not so sure.

Did you read his strange remark in his last post to me, right now: “All we needed was for Bruno to come by (to Byron’s party) in his old white van.” ?

Does anyone believe that I know any friends of Byron called “Bruno” – or even Byron himself?? And why of all names “Bruno” ?!

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

I do know however that I waited all night long – and the night before, too – for a guy called “Bruno M.” to leave a new, very important house fixture at MY garage. He didn’t show up, but he drives a white van too, only with his company’s logo on the hood and doors. And the only other Bruno I ever met in my life lives below the Equator. I give you my word of honour on both.
And it’s not even the first time that this happens.
My girl-friend is “seriously apprehensive” because of that remark out of any context…

I know: You could say: Byron writes and says a lot, on several OTHER “Military​.com” Web-sites too, so maybe it was just a plausible, “adorable” coincidence, (and I DO even appreciate Byron’s “legend” ! ), but… makes you kinda wonder who’s the real master, who’s the servant of these Web-sites…

Hi Byron, As far as civilians having to deploy to maintain/fix systems we have Clinton to thank for that — His first dismantling of the military was to remove a lot of techs from the military and make everyone operators which in reality made the military more expensive to operate because it cost more to pull a ship into port to reapir it than to fix it at sea with military personnel. after a few years of this escalating cost they finally strated rebuilding the tech schools and training military again — contractors only work on developemental and warranty items now days.

Hilarious. I am not liberal –my education is in criminal justice and law enforcement… the US military is the largest socialist organization in the world (told what to think, wear, eat and live) protecting the interests of rich capitalists.

your claims that Byron dosn’t support his statements with facts, isn’t backed up with hard data, you need to compile a comprehensive list of all such instances from reliable sources and an index would be nice.

Gates talk about military personnel spending but he forgets to mention the rise in spending for welfare and other subsidized federal mandate programs that do not add to the country but take away from the country. Obama wants to spread the wealth but have you seen any of the Democrats in congress or business that has offered to spread their wealth? Nope just spread your wealth, not theirs

I joined the Army at 17 years of age and told them I wanted the infantry and then go to Viet-Nam. They sent me there when I turned 18. I volunteered to stay there an additional 3 years before returning home. Why did I do that? I wasn’t trying to be heroic or anything. I thought that it was the right thing to do to demonstrate your patriotism, but also to do it manly, and join the infantry, and then go fight a war for your country. I knew we were not winning in Viet-Nam when I enlisted. They didn’t have to call us a bunch of losers. The point that I’m trying to make is, the public needs to reach out and make a better connection with its military and its veterans.

The biggest problem I see with our military is that although it is an all volunteer force, American’s do not know the true conditions in which these men/women serve. Especially the Navy where ships are falling apart and undermanned when underway. I mean our son was deployed two separate times for more than 7 months each time and both cruises lived without potable water for months. Not days, MONTHS. Who lives like that in America? No one! So while they may be paid okay and have good benefits, they are not going into the service to take advantage of the system, they are going in to serve their country as a volunteer.

there are those who go in the reserves to get the education money, pbbt on them. They get called to action, so be it, they VOLUNTEERED to go whether they like it or not. They knew there was a war going on when they signed that line, do your duty and EARN your way in America.

For those in the general public who feel our kids have it easy in the military, I dare you to take a day in their shoes. I dare you to spend time with the families left behind wondering when daddy/mommy will be home or if they will ever return. The Navy still has the weakest level of communication with families, but for the most part the communication highway is so advanced compared to 20 years ago and even now it causes so many issues. Go sit in Iraq with my son-in-law who gets ONE meal every 24 hours while he passes over IED’s and eludes suicide car bombers to escort high ranking officials from point A to point B without any forces to protect them because “we pulled out of Iraq.”

I assure you that few and far between are the men/women who enlist to get the benefits. I assure you that the conditions of the military are causing a great exit of those who are trained to do the job. Your tax dollars are going to waste because our men and women in uniform see that they are not being cared for as promised.

My husband is a Desert Storm veteran and sick, totally disabled and medically retired from the Navy. He will never work again. We do not see a dime of his retirement from the Navy. We get VA disability only. We have to pay for the right to use a MTF and we have to purchase Medicare. Why are we being punished for him going to war? why are we suffering the loss of health and finances when it was promised we would be cared for for life? Seriously we should not have to pay for two health insurance plans and dental plans that stink, have no eye care of any kind, and lose the retirement check. This all adds up to about $30,000 per year we were guaranteed when my husband signed up to complete 20+ years in the navy, not knowing he would be ill by the end of 10 years.

Our young men and women are facing the same travesty as my family. And yet I can proudly say that three of my children are Navy and one is married to the Army and working on post. I can proudly say that I have four other children who support the military in many ways besides enlisting themselves. The kids didn’t do it out of greed or need, they chose to serve our Great Nation because they have been taught Honor, Courage, Faith, God, Country, and Family are what matter. They serve with dignity and pride regardless what conditions they have to encounter and live in while serving. (including having to purchase a new uniform set that cost three times as much as their annual clothing allowance)

Thank a Veteran, thank a service member, and be sure to thank their families as well~ they do serve for America!

And their families!

And just recently Obama administration said cut forces, so the Navy cut 17,000 positions. Our military needs to be restructured like it was during the Reagan years, we had an amazing force that would intimidate the best the world had to offer.

The problem is not whether the Draft or all Volunteer Military„,the problem is an apathetic American Public, who supports the Military as long as they don’t have to serve. When I grew up as a kid in the 50’s, almost all of the Men in my small town and the surrounding countryside had served in WWII or Korea. Veterans were everywhere and Patriotism was everywhere from Veterans and their families who had actually served! Today with the All Volunteer Force less than 5% of the population does all the dangerous and dirty work for all the rest of us. Most of us today are nothing but gutless freeriders.
I have nothing but the highest Respect and Gratitude for the Men and Women in Uniform today who are walking point for us, but maybe we need both a Volunteer Force and a Draft. The Military could be used to secure our ports and borders, and our cities, and if more people served and more families were involved maybe we would take a harder look at possible wars and the costs in lives and money.

What I find is the sad story on TV today about N. Korea. There their new comander of the military is a 20 year old kid with 4 stars. In our country the president will kick to the curb any general who refuses to do as he is told.
Would some one please explain to me the difference between the two.
I am a 100 DAV and 72 and have witness the President since Truman do just that from Gen D MacArthur to most recent one by Obama. So tell me the difference in the N. Korean manner of doing things and that of the good old US of A.
BTW my last duty station was at CCII with the old Black Knights, Hq & Hq company of the 5th Cal. of the 1st Cal. Div in Korea up near the 38th. I was serving under Kennedy and choose to leave the military after he choose to make it impossible for me as a white boy be promoted. arnoldbowers1@aol.com. Frank A Bowers now of Austin, TX

Good Evening Folks,

FFB. Hi buddy. It appears you are not a mystery reader. Bruno or the Chief of Police of Saint-Denis Benoit “Bruno” Courreges is the main character in the “Burno” mystery series by Martin Walker. he is a lot like in character ‚like Vidoq. Bruno tarvels around in an old white van with 400K Km on it and is always complaining that the Village won’t buy his a newer one with less kilometers on it.

As far as civilian contractors goes Boomer contrary to popular opinion it wasn’t clinton or the Democrats who first used them. They were used by George Washington and are documented as early as 1775 when Washington sent a request to the Congress asking permission to hang three he caught cheating the Army with short weighted beef/pork (the added water) and sending inferior meat (it was rotting in the barrel) to the Army. He was denied, Congress was on the take and a member owned the company there three worked for.

Oblat. I’m from the old school and we did our own research. We started with a thesis statement, the hauled our note book and index cards to a place called a library, started with the card catalogue, found something called books on the shelf, went to big desks, read looked up what were ere researching, took notes on cards, wrote outlines and started writing a paper. That was before you could shop the net and download a paper, write a cover sheet and well I won’t eve go their.

So here is where you start Oblat. I will give you an easy an easy one, prove the “World is Flat”. Get back when you can prove it.

To cut to the chase I would never ask for anybody’s notes or references and I wouldn’t give any out. We use to in the dark ages call that cheating.

Bill R. First question. My statement was intended to be of the generational window as a whole and not about Latinos. If you are interested in this you might look up some of what Dr. David S. Chu has to say. He was from 2001–2008, of the Bush (43) Administration Assistant Sec. of Defense for Personal and Readiness. Personally I find a lot to disagree with what he said but over all he was on target about the demographics that we are facing now. Again my conclusion was do we go after higher quality and a smaller force or do we sacriface quality and have a larger force.

Sir(and I use that loosely),
That comment is so stupid as to be beyond assinine. Wherever you are from(ie: what ever rock you crawled out from under) please go back. And if (I hope not ) you are a citizen,please denouce it and leave. You don’t deserve to breath the same air as an American.
You obviously have never been on an humanitarian mission with the US military sent by the US people (free by the way), which about every time another nation has a disaster,otherwise you would keep your underinformed mouth closed.
Jake

When will yall civilians get this? A MOH is a recipient, NOT a winner. You do not “WIN” the MOH.
Good point of what you stated though.

Mr. Gates and our government new the cost of these two ( worthless wars to start with.) you do not send a military into battle without knowing what furture cost will be. the federal government dont care about veterans. take a look at the committe on veterans benefits. they want to cut cost. THEY START WARS because there is BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to be made by the Military industrial complex. or military contractors, plus all memembers of the government. ( WAR IS A RACKET ) THE ELITE PROFIT. THE MILITARY SUFFER. nobody in their right mind wants to enter the military and go to war for the elite to profit. THE WARS ARE ALL ABOUT PROFITS. (OIL AND NATURAL RESCORCES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.)

the trouble is not the amount of education necessarily, but are they amarter for all the education they seem to have been “awarded”? My guess is not so???
Steve, Rertired

Lets not forget danf its this nation that allows you to post this comment without being sent to prison. And i will give my self up to judgment when Christ apears infront of me, not when a priest who has no real connection to Christ tells me to. Im athiest i dont believe in the teaching of any religion i believe it stops the progress of the human race. However if im faced with over whelming evidence that God is real i will admit i am wrong but however the odds are against it. And if there is a God then im sure God would have arms wide open to any man or women who is loyal enough to serve their country and to protect those who inhabit it. So i say God bless America and those who serve her.

As A Drill Sergeant in the U.S. Army I will say that the Soldiers are different from 40 years ago because they sit around and play video games all day instead of riding bikes. that 17 percent that does not pass is because they physically break from lack of excercise the first 18 years of their life. The quality has improved because now we kick out whoever does not make the standard. Where as in a draft Army everyone was in. In Vietnam the Army also took in convicted felons to join the ranks. I do believe that their should be a draft; however the quality would go down. The 10 years I have served I have yet to meet someone that joined the army to pay for poping out kids, most people join to learn a skill, go to school, or because they want to serve. With the economy in the toilet the last couple years have seen an increase of just people joining cause they need a job.

Sad what you say is true. I might remind you that there is a lesson. That is Bush (same guard unit) really screwed my buds by going to Iraq. We could have had 4,000 + troops and money and equipment for our current quest. The last 10 years has been the biggest and most costly disaster that I have observed ( I’m including the economy) . And I think I’ve seen it all. I suggest we have the draft.

I thought I would throw out this like since there was questions about sources, “http://​www​.vhfcn​.org/​s​t​a​t​.​htm”. This source can be question, but having something is better than noting. I’m a young veteran here is a link about my unit http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/acsc/01–031.p…. Hopes this helps.

It would proably help for the American public to have a vivid vision and witness to horrors that our service corps go thru.Not the hollywood crap,or the pentegon washington censored bulls^&. They should see and hear what our military goes thru there and here at home.How they put everything on the line.There is no way this story can be told in one hour less commercials​.To long the politicians have stuck their no-nothing opinons in the military.If you have not been there,you DON“T know. What it is like for your family to be on food stamps.While you are riking your life.What it’s like to hwve your best friends brains splattered on you.What it’s like to see your comrades body’s aftered they have been tortured and murdered.Then explain why they do it.

“to conscript your way up to strength in time of conflict is not wise in this day and age. Quality suffers.”

Make the draft a standing order. Two years such as they have in Germany and other countries.

I do believe they apologized to the family whose son had on shorts and a t-shirt.

I also have known soldiers who served not only in Vietnam ALSO in the current Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

Hello HasBeen?? Did you really make the above statement?
I served in Viet Nam and I served in Desert Shield/Storm (1990–1991) and I’d like you tell me who you know that is active duty serving in Iraq or Afganistan now and served in Veit Nam!?? Do the Math??

I’m not against the idea, but it would certainly be a massive change on many levels.

Also the link about my unit is old. It’s pre September 11, some things have changed.

I have to disagree, DANF. Jesus himself did not shy away from topics, situations or especially people just becuase they did not believe, live or practice their faith as he did. Neither did Paul. They went and presented the example for others. The did’t just dialogue, they took action. We need more Christians not less. Today’s men and woman have to lean on their faith, while they serve along with their families.
Ours is a political governement that allows religion. Our enemy has a relgion that allows government.
Take action, or soon you will not be able to make a post like this without ramifications.
God bless.

Victory, Top of the Mountain, Follow Me, Allons, Pathfinder, Screaming Eagle. First of All there is nothing wrong with the force, the force that volunteered has risen to the call and continues to rise. For us to make it we have to getting out, but to what? No jobs, high fuel cost, and exhaustion. We fight because sometimes it is in hopes that time will improve our own backyard. A soldier in the face of war is like a kid in the candy store, can’t get enough and we don’t have to wonder what war, we are in it. Everyone please don’t get carried away, we will need time once we are home to adjust, to reconnect with old friends and to mend our families that are the real heroes. Stop wondering if the Viet Nam soldier was great, they are all great and we learned from them, the Cold war soldiers are great they endured an even longer battle, I spent 7 years in Germany myself. But today’s soldier the Volunteer, is just like any other Soldier, Fighting with sacrifice and holding the line because we believe that we are all American’s and we are at this point in time doing our best to serve with duty, honor and country. For everyone that made comments thank you for caring enough, and for those of you still wondering we are all part of the team. Team America.….

I know touching military benefits is a political fire storm, but perhaps it’s time to reevaluate paying “retired” 38 — 45 year old men to work another full-time job, which, at times, is a federal service job. I think the Reserve model is appropriate for the active duty forces — after 20 years of honorable service, the servicemember’s benefits kick in at 60. It doesn’t make sense to pay an able-bodied person retirement pay when they can still work. Think about this for a moment. A young person joins the military after high school at the age of 18 and decides to make it career. After 20 years of service, this person is 38 years old and “retires.” Statistically, this person will live another 40 years, so the government is paying this person for sixty years for only 20 years of productivity. This is financially untenable. Implementing this policy would generate a tremendous cost savings and needs to be seriously evaluated

Just a thought, why is Sec. Gates and DOD worryin’ ’bout Public Affairs and the media’s take on the military? Why aren’t our stories told in history classes in our schools, public and private? Why aren’t some of the excellent books written by veterans on the reading assignments in our schools or in their libraries? Yeah, I’m naive, time to rethink Public Educations progressive ‘anti-war’ education agenda and maybe give a hint to our kids of our national heritage and the FACT that Freedom isn’t Free and NEVER has been, inspite of their education systems ideology or ‘worldview’.

Thank you for your service to all the veterans past and present without which we would be speaking a different language nowadays. Again, thank you and keep up the good work.

Whose army is it anyways? I guess for someone like me that goes to Georgetown, by the way I think Gates went to Georgetown, it’s no big deal going from being homeless to a Hoya. My question is did Gates go to Georgetown as a person with crap benefits, half blind as well as being a veteran that underwent a trial of being homeless. I much more intelligent than Gates, if he did go to Geoegetown, he has a brain much smaller than I do. Maybe he should give speeches that state if you are homeless you are probably smarter, wiser and better off than I am in these fictional speeches I give where I play deaf, dumb, blind, unaccountable, stoic & aristocratic. Obama & Bush are the same dudes too, though they wear different leotards, it’s the same Machievellan/neoplatoinst conception of two men one being royalty with vices while the other is the son of a gypsy, with neither not really having the training to do what they do. That’s where Gates falls in, only a moron would question himself in a speech. Gates has to live with the fact he got one thing right, he got more people killed in the time he held his position than any homeless people. He graduated Georgetown with no middle/median ground understanding. He might be brilliant as a stoic, as sophist, but how would he not know that what a student right should be should be a soldiers right too. If a student gets killed, injured, awarded; should a soldier get these rights too? They are getting these rights. Gates remains uncontested so much he begins to check his own self, that’s the message of this gentleman. Someone tell me what to do because I can’t live with myself, I guess when your University is so close to the PENTAGRAM, upon staring at the drapes for thousands of hours a day gets you moody to the point that you tell your people to stop writing fictional speeches.

Go back to the draft and let everyone do some sacrificing, not just the poor, uneducated, and minorities. The military should reflect a picture of the public face of America. If some of these blow hards in the public face every day had to risk the chance of their sons and daughters experiencing the wars that we fight, i am sure that some things would change in America.

Regardless, of the source – volunteer or draftee, once assigned to a unit, the American soldier will do their duty. While a draft would not necessarily be a bad idea, when one is suggested it assumes a 2 year obligation. To fight at the level we currently can, requires more training than would be cost-effective with that short of return on investment. Most enlistments now (at least for the USN/USMC) requires 6 years — at the least 2 active; 4 reserve. Plus “specialized” training requiring longer obligations are getting more routine in every MOS/NEC.
A draft without lowering our war fighting capability (which the politicians won’t/cannot do) would require a 6–8 year obligation. The active/reserve time would be balanced – 2-active/6-reserve, 4/3, or 6/0.
Also, no deferments or lottery. It cannot be the luck of the draw. Everyone serves – in some way. I think then we would get the best and brightest along with fairness. Our family tradition has been in military service. But, I have always felt a disconnect with the country at large and thought that a good FOD walk-down every morning would be good for America.

Please stop confusing “Smart” with “Educated”. Points scored in literature and the arts have little to do with leading a squad. The same applies to the calculus and particle physics.

what is the price for freedom? I think our all volunteer force is worth every penny being spent. Enough said.

The last time I took my oath in 1997, I didn’t swear to protect a society, or a president, but the Constitution. The Constitution, when followed to the T, protects the people from a tyranny type of government and other dangers in this world, then and now. When will this office realize God gave us these rights to begin with and the founding father, not prefect by any sense, Just wrote down what God gave us! Humans by nature want to be free, protected and sheltered, but they also want to excel in thier protentionals and beyond! It is the way God wired us!

We need reserves and regulars. We also need a law that automatically starts conscription if any reserves are called up for periods of 180 days or more. This would put political pressure on politicians , and protect reserves from unnecessary call outs. Robert Allen Gy/sgt retired

The current CIC is a muslum, what do you expect.

Not a very “liberal” arguement. As a draftee and regular army soldier myself, I think you are dead on. Eliminating the draft was a truly poor decision, but not one foisted on this nation by a bunch of conservative generals. I think you would be surprised by the number of conservative thinkers that would love to have the draft back, but, as you note, that isn’t going to happen. Had to laugh at the intimation that somehow liberal thought is censored. Seems to me that the only speakers in the past few decades that have been harrassed off of college campuses have been conservatives.

Athough I am not familiar with what Chu has written — it helps, Byron, if you take the trouble to actually cite your sources, online is best if possible — I think you missed my point. It is not the case that the recruiting pool is better or worse now. Yes, the economy affects that, but one would think that the current economic situation makes the pool more competitive, not less. Also, we are on the cusp of the baby boomlet of the late 80s. Finally — taking as a given that downsizing is on the way, the military can afford to be choosy right now, and should. Also — retirement age is an arbitrary constraint. Most folks who get to retirement age are in pretty good shape and could serve longer if need be. Let attrition do its work. In ten to thirteen years, all the baby boomers will have hit retirement age, and there will be labor shortages to worry about all over the place. But not now.

It’s amazing how Johnny has assumed that only conservatives are serving in the military. I was in the military and my husband still serves. From my personal experience, I know that those in the military come from many different backgrounds and have a variety of political views. They do not get caught up in so much of the politics that polarize those who are not serving, who are sitting on their coach using their time to demonize other Americans just because they have different political views. Their experiences have shown them that these issues are not as simple as those on both the extreme left and extreme right try to make them out to be.

Agree, excellent comment. There’s nothing that says that we can’t maintain our professional military, keeping some groups like the Marines as a career, volunteer force only. However, I think it would be good for both our country and our young people to require some type of service, either in the military or in some other way.

It is double edged sword. The US military started down this path after the Korean War, when a good number of overaged soldiers got rolled by the North Koreans — the Army of 1950 was one of the softest and least ready forces the US ever put on the battlefield. That’s when the “up-or-out” path to 20 year retirement got started. There are some creative things one could do here. My experience in the reserves was a bit disillusioning. I went from being led by senior field grade officers who were young and vibrant to former Vietnam hold-overs who had completely missed the post-Vietnam reforms. There would be goodness if we could get past the politics and let senior officers and NCOs in the regular army (in that 20 to 30 years service range) go take leadership positions in the RC force structure — and I’m talking about the National Guard, where most of the combat units in the reserve are located — rather than bake in incompetence that you just end up having to weed out in wartime. I know some of this happened in the 90s, but personally, I would just get rid of AGR and merge it into the RA force structure.

What Gates didn’t clearly identify was why the Health Care has increased so much over the last ten years. We have been in battle for all those years and the number and severity of injured military members has skyrocketed. The death benefits for survivors has increased to several hundred thousand each and our Military and VA Hospitals are overcrowded with severly injured men and women who went into Harm’s Way while serving this Great Country.

While the costs associated with normal Health Care has risen, the cost to care for teh war injuries is why the costs are so high.

Our Politicians send us into Harm’s Way, but then after the fact, they complain about the high costs associated with their decisions.

You focus on the cost and ignore the social/personal advantages.
The draftee was taken from one area/environment (socio-economic-cultural-religious-racial) and placed in another with other draftees from all parts of the country all with different backgrounds. He learned to work with and understand the others. The developed a commonality — a new and expanded American citizen. Instead of friends from the hood they developed friends/buddies from all over the US. Instead of their parochial outlook they became Americans in the broadest sence. After two years they left with friends from throughout the 50 states. They had seen the country and some of the other parts of the world. The had had to work with others — with other values and beliefs — and in some cases owed their lives to person who they would have avoided (never come in contact with) in their previous civilian environment. The draft continued the American tradition of the “Melting Pot” and it was all lost with the end of the draft.

People will always rise to the occasion in defense of our country — many currently serving would never had considered the military prior to 911 but eagerly joined within hours just as they lined up to join on Dec 7th 1941. We will always be able to defend ourselves if attacked. The ability to reduce the cost of a war is simple, Provide a military whose sole purpose is to destroy the enemy, delete the term collateral damage from the manuals, and humanitarian efforts against our enemies/ former enemies only hours ago. We have the ability to sweep through a country within a couple of months as long as we dont stop to render aid or rebuild. Expecting our military to do this is just as stupid as expecting an individual who blew away a burglar in the middle of the night to be responsible for the bad guys family for the rest of thier lives (although thier are already many liberals who feel it should be that way.)

Actually when someone like Obama or a wealthy Democratic member of Congress or private business supports something like renewing the Bush tax cuts but only for those making under 250,000 they are taking a stand which will reduce their personal wealth.
Although I agree with your basic premise (it is human nature for people to look for their own interests) I am amazed by the fact that you have attributed that tendency to the Democrats, seeming to act like Republicans never would do such a thing. Wealth can be distribute both up and down the economic scale. You seem to focus only on the downward movement.

Byron,
You hit the nail on the head, Trooper! Basically told the same thing to a Congressional investigation committee 40 years ago when I was a C.O. at FT Carson, CO. Also told the committee that, should a war break out in the future, they would struggle to maintain an all-volunteer force at prohibitive costs. Oh well, did we listen to the low-ranking intel officer who warned of an impending attack on Pearl Harbor, or the FBI agent who raised the red flag over foreign flight students learning to take off, but not land? Looks as if History is repeating itself ! Semper Fi, G. Germann, Col. of Marines

danf, you should read your Bible. God, ordered whole towns, familys, even farm animals killed in his name and to honor him. Being a Christian has nothing to do with the military. You are either a Christian before or after you join the military. When you join the military, you are joing to “maybe having to kill”. The 10 Commandment has a commandment that states, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. The true meaning of this is, Thou Shalt Not Murder. There is a difference between kill and murder. If a Christian is strong in his/her belief of NO Killing/Murder then they should not join.
DANF there are soldiers that bare arms and proclaim the name of Jesus, and belesses the name of the one almighty God. God is already making a judgement. You should pray.

Best fantasy I have read in this entire blog. I served during Vietnam 1965–1987 and you must have been smoking some of that dope you were talking about when you wrote this entry. None of the “facts” or “statistics” you so unconvinceingly quote can be substantiated. If you had a clue you would’nt write such garbage. I doubt that you were ever in the military or even knew anyone in the military. Get a life.

I was in from the 70’s to the 90’s. I served with draftees. They were good soldiers who got the job done with a minimum of bs. Everybody remember “The Army Wants to Join You”? What a disaster. We have a better fighting force today because of the combat experience and training. However there will come a time when we will see what we saw at the end in Vietnam. Unless there is a coherent policy on how to finish in Afghanistan, the troops will eventually not perform to standard. My son will be on his second deployment in January. He will have been on active duty for two years in January. The problem is the “forever war”. That has caused and is causing the money problems and who will serve question. I do not have an answer on what will get us of this mess. Our politicians are not serious people. That is our fault for voting for them.

Posting to a question asked earlier by PMH DAV regarding the length of service of Has Been! The math works just fine! I’m a reservist and have been since 71. I could have served in Viet Nam but they were not taking Engineers by that phase of the War. I served my full enlistment of 6 years and was activated 3 times for Domestic Tranquility issues. Not on the front lines exactly but as close to hate and discontent as anyone would want to be! I then enlisted in the Air Force Reserve and served for the next 26 years in the Air Mobility Command as a Loadmaster and Air Freight Manager. We supported all the conflicts from Panama to the beginning of the Iraqi Freedom as the reserve structure allowed serving in Worldwide Operations on a voluntary basis. Just before OIF began I requested a transfer to the retired Reserve and watched my youngest son go off to support the same a couple of years later! I could have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan but age catches up with us all! As soon as I turn 60 I will be eligible to receive my small pension as I only served 2800 days in 32 years!

As a Reservist of 32 years, I can attest to the intelligence of draftees being generally higher than the norm. However, the issue where the rubber meets the road is not their intelligence but their attitude; they simply and obviously did not want to be there. They were unruly and a constant source of internal as well as external aggravation! While they learned what was expected of them in basic, they in general took every opportunity to game or subvert the system. This is what happens when you sentence the general population to 6 years of their life at hard labor! However with that said I still believe in conscription for everyone for a short period. Ya know, we say we want people to get educated but we leave out the most fundamental elements. How your rights to be an American are preserved! Without that basic understanding in an increasing competitive world we are all at risk of becoming subjects of a foreign power! The best way to appreciate music and art is to try and learn how to play! So it is with the Art of War!

It appears some young people have been listing to the retired military and how bad they are getting screwed every year. Who wants to work for someone who wants to pay for wounds received during a conflict. As stated veterans who are retired, no COLA, however I received the COLA in my police retirement. I would rather fight my own war, of course OB and croonies want to take away my guns so we would have to use up our young people again. Lets, let the fat asses be given the chance to fight for their freedom. Then when the all volunteer force starts to fall apart take every person between 18 and 40 with no exceptions. There is a place for everyone, if you can breath you get a gun and ammo and sent home to defend your home. Its done in Norway and other countries. This would take care of a lot of problems, all government elected officals, colledge students, as stated if you are breathing you will be given the chance to fight for your country and your freedom. If you don’t fight you die and your equipment is given to someone else, who will probably learn the lesson, yes this means men and women, mothers and fathers. If you think this is bad, try counting your money in another language. Please remember freedom is not free. Close all boarders so we don’t get get a bunch of slick willies. If you make it out of the country you can’nt come back so make your choices carefully. If you think you can run well you can but you will just fight for another country. Time to grow up!!!!!

Our family of 5 volunteered to serve in the AF. Mom and Dad and 3 sons. It was different then. We felt a purpose during the cold war. In the end we advised them all to get out. The draft needs to be reinstated. We are back to the Vietnam era. This war is not winnable when it comes right down to it. No one wants us. Our so called friends are playing both sides while our soldiers are being killed. For what? Woodward has it right in his new book when even the higher ups say it is unwinnable. Congress just wants bodies as long as it is none of their relatives. They are not for the people, only themselves. We are ending up gaining nothing, yes nothing. We are in a mire we need to get out of and now. There is nothing to gain in this war and it is unwinable. Angry? You bet. We have a total of 50 years of military service in this family and look what it has got us. It is also personal as I have a relative who is paralyzed from the waist down. It affects all of is. He is 29. Thank You for listening. I am 77 years old and if there is ever any marches against this war, lets call it what it is, I will be there.

Oblat — you must be in the 20% who dream of being a soldier — you only get to play it on video games but can’t handle it in real life due to your bad physical shape or your mental retardation. Either way, it sounds like you’re a type that only pretends.

The biggest minority in the military today is from Hispanic decent. In general, most of the military is made of of “non”-whites and “non”-Americans. Yes, your freedom is being provided by immigrants and foreigners. Take the US Navy — one of the biggest minorities are volunteers from the Philippines, Guam, etc. Sorry, no “actual” numbers to back this up, but anybody who ever served aboard a ship will know this.

I was a Marine — most marines I served with were Hispanic.. and the sailors mostly Phillippino. Young, smart, dedicated men and women — for the sake of the US of A. While we sit here and post back and forth, just know that regardless of benefits or pay or the line of divide… just know it ain’t an ALL AMERICAN military. As for conscription military — you loser Vietnam era folks don’t realize how many draft dodgers there were do you. And you prefer a draft? pathetic… why do you think we lost the Vietnam War — yes, we lost.

Looks like Byron Skinner is a wanna be lawmaker or wishes he was the Defense Sec.

Mr. Gates should worry about people joinging the military. Mr. Gates, here is a fact. Some of the people out there are sons and daughters of Veterans.

They have seen first hand how their mothers and fathers were treaded by the VA system when they returne from war. Soliders during the Viet Nam war was told they and their family would have free medical and dental while in the army and after they retired. Then they were told we would now have to pay for medical for the family and dental for me and my family. Why. Well you see while we were TOLD we had this jewel of a deal, it was NEVER in our contracts.

Go to the VA for a disiabilty, you have months and even years of trying to prove the disiabilty. Then the rating, can be lowered at any time. It can state in medical record at the VA hospital this condition is here to stay.

You have to prove every thing, even thou it is in your medical records. Oh yes, Mr. Gates, I would worry about the number of people that have seen first had how the military and VA will turn a deaft ear to there problems.

Christians are the reason why our military is weak… All they believe in is making love to other guys. Christianity is nothing but an excuse to feel good about yourself being a nice person. When you die, you all smell the same, rot the same, and end up being nothing but a memory. Sad but true, regardless of religion, we are nothing but rotting corpses at the end of the day and religion just makes you feel better about yourself for when that time comes.

Do you really believe this garbage you write? Christians have comprised and still comprise the majority of our military since the revolutionary war. You sir are an idiot, and doubly so if you think we are soulless beasts who“rot in the ground” after death. You are a prime example of why I loathe atheists.

My butt may be old and wrinkled but don’t forget it was these old and wrinkled butts that made it possible for you to lay your young and smooth butt in your daddy’s home at night night without a care in the world. Some one has to do it for the next generation so don’t belittle the generation that done it for you.

Jesus said “render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and render unto God what is God’s.” In the same New Testament, the Apostle Paul said “if a man will not work, neither should he eat.” US citizens that are Christians have just as much responsibility for supporting their nation as non Christians. Using Paul’s statement in an analogy with the Christian’s obligation to serve his country, if he or she enjoys the freedoms and blessings of this nation then he or she should be willing to serve. To share (and even bask) in the blessings of freedom without turning a finger to defend it is abominable.

For those who say those going to to ROTC are not as intelligent as others, I graduated in the top 10% of my high school and am currently on the Dean’s list of a high respected university in Virginia, and I know many people in my program who are also not uneducated people from “Podunk U.” I did not need the scholarship and am not attempting to bleed the military for all it is worth. Please do not try to lump us in to a group of uneducated red necks just because you think that is what we are becoming.

I do not understand what a muslim has to do with this. Why do we as Americans have so much hate for muslims. Before you start saying 9/11, there were muslims who died on 9/11 too.

Read “Sharia: The Threat To America”, an analysis by Team B II, then you can answer your own question.

Danfer, if what you say is true, then I have still lived a better life as a Christian than not. But what if what you say is false? It means you have just placed all of your eggs (metaphor for eternity) in one basket of unbelief. At the end of your life you will discover that God exists afterall, but you won’t be prepared to meet Him. God is the very essence of holiness and rightousness. Because of His holy nature, sin will be consumed in His presence on the last day. A delemma exists, because in spite of His holy and rightous nature, He loves us. But all humans are sinners and unrightous. The Apostle Paul spoke of this delemma in the book of Romans. “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.…there is none rightous…no not one…” Again he states, “the wages of sin is death.”

(continued) How does God solve the delemma? “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us…” The second person in the Godhead emptied Himself of His majesty and glory to become a human being, to be a part of His creation. God’s purpose for the incarnation was to provide a perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind. That sacrifice was Jesus Christ. In that way, God would be able to fellowship those who appropriated His gift of grace.

Retiree’s Widow
Everyone should kiss the feet of military man and women of “AMERICA”. Not for them giving up and living on little of nothing you all wouldn’t be here to drew big,big paychecks. How many of you earned the right to set in the chair you are filling.Look at poeple are in sports and look at the big bucks and don’t have to risk their life. The freedom you all got is all the “AMERICA” military men and women their life on the line. I live on $1061.00 a month. From my husband’s and my social security together. I get is my medical and now you all want to take it. Wake up America and give that service person what they deserve. Look at your paycheck and think how much less the service person might get. Every one should walk in their boots

It’s rather amazing how those of us who DID serve in the military are, in many ways, just like the politicians who sent us around the globe. One side batters the Vietnam Vet, others the servicemembers of today and who are over in southwest Asia and around the globe — serving their country. What does it say when we, collectively, are basically trying to establish bragging rights over who was smarter, more well trained, in better physical shape etc.? Isn’t it a fact that a lot of men and women in uniform gave the ultimate — no one asked what their weight was, or what their IQ was, or whether they served in Da Nang, Kuwait, Iraq or elsewhere. Come on folks, we’re all part of the same team, like it or not, and while I can’t speak for you, I’ll speak for myself (27 year Navy man) when I say it just hurts to see this bickering back and forth. What does all of this say to our fellow citizens? You decide, for only you can think that one through. I hope that one day service to country, in some capacity, WILL be a requirement like it is in many countries; but until the politicos get their stuff together, then WE need to stick together!! Thanks for hearing me out.

I think if you take 24 hours time 365 days that will tell you how many hours for year then times by 20 years. Service time is 24/7. I think they should cut out the benefits for wives that was not married to the sevice person at all while they were in the service. Nancy Schram

ok lets take a vote — I vote to start the draft! (End of conversation).

Are you off your rocker? Having retired from 41 years of Military service,including WW11,and having duties mainly in personnel management and administration which included interviewing recruits and pipe-line personnel,I can say that the majority served with a conscientious commitment to a divine creator,whether he be Jesus Christ, Allah, Buddha etc.Go to a military post and attend a religious gathering,be it a Catholic Mass,a Protestant Bible class/meeting,or a Jewish ceremony. You might be surprised.Did not Jesus say,“No man has greater love than he lay down his life for his friend”? ‚even for you ! Oh yes,I also served in the Infantry,with faith that God was by my side. Who/what is by your side? Irvin O’Bryan,Sgm,US Army,Retired..

It those not surprise me the number of bigots and brain dead folks we have still walking around this country.
They consisitently talk about taking back the country and how much trouble we are in now that a mixed race President ws elected. They need to tape themselves to hear how dumb they sound. Everyone in DC that has been elected is an American, born in the U.S. If any person breathing believe the Republicans would have allowed a non-American to assume the Presidency then they need to stop smoking or drinking whatever it is that is dumbing them down including Beck and Limbaugh. I hope the the party of Moe and Curly take back the lead and completely sale us to the Chinese, because that is what they want. They don’t give a rat’s behind about nothing but their Frat, the Republican Party. Moe and Curly used the military but didn’t respect it. Send our boys to war unprepared with no plan to win. I spent 26 years in uniform and was drafted.

Has anyone read this article? I suggest you do!
http://​www​.michaelyon​-online​.com/​t​o​-​f​o​l​l​o​w​-​t​h​e​se-…

Secretary Gates asks an excellent question. With emphasis being placed upon our best and brightest to pursue monetary wealth and status, where are those who will put service above personal gain. My 30 years in the military gave me great satisfaction in being a part of something greater, being part of an ideal, and being in a profession that was dedicated to protecting our freedoms and defending our Constitution.

I am very proud of my two sons, who have chosen to be career military in the Marine Corps. They, too, see this as a profession and vocation with the end result of being of service to the United States.

But today, most people do not have any skin in the process or, as they say, “a dog in the fight”. I wish more people would choose military service, even for a short time. It would give them a perception of their freedom and national pride in knowing they are helping preserve our liberty.

We need both regular and reserve military. We also need to keep our reservs and national guard strong by requiring nationwide conscription anytime reserves are called to active duty for exterded peoriods [for instance 180 days] . The prez would not be so quick to start, and everyone could fullfill their obligations.
Gy/sgt Robert Allen

We need to bring the draft back. I served in the U.S.Army medical corps (as a physician) during the Viet Nam war (stationed in the USA). The cross-fertilization of civilians (such as myself) serving in the Military for a few years served as a bridge between civilian and military cultures. They paid us very little (even as an officer), and we had to work extremely hard, but that was the price of growing up in this wonderful country. Sadly, most kids today (other than those who volunteer), don’t understand the price of freedom.

If our nation suffers an even worse 9/11 type attack again (perhaps nuclear) from the evil-doers world-wide who wish us ill, then we’ll then bring back the draft without a squeal, and once again, everyone will need to serve to protect this great nation.

David Wood recently wrote an article related to this topic in PoliticsDaily​.com, 9 Sep. 10. My take on it is: The Army is now a legion of professionals not an army of citizen soldiers. In our history, only the Indian Wars produced a similar force of combat hardened, long service, apolitical troops wedded to the regiment and not society.

Is this good or bad? There is no question that it means a more proficient and effective fighting force that should not suffer anymore Kasserine Passes while learning their trade. This has the obvious result of fewer lives lost; but does it not also mean the general population will stand by while these soldiers are used in ways that they would never allow their own sons and daughters to be used? Does it mean the advent of a true warrior class in the US growing apart from the civilian population? Is a force of professional legionary an instrument for exporting foreign policy or an instrument of national defense? I don’t have the answers but I wonder. As the soldiers I see on a regular basis say “The Army is at war but the country is at the mall”. One note on this quote, a few years ago it was said with some consternation, now it is accepted as the way things are with a bit of bitter pride.

The split is real.

I too was a regular army enlisted man in Vietnam serving with draftees and regulars , I stayed in until retirement in December of 91 and still maintain frequent contact with the soldiers undergoing treatment at the Warrior Transition Unit, Ft Huachuca, AZ. I believe I have a pretty good take on the subject raised by Bryon and here it is.

The troops in Vietnam were and perhaps still are underrated. They fought under extreme conditions both physically and emotionally (due to a hostile population back home) I am proud to be one of them. As for the quality of today’s troops as apposed to those of the 60s and 70s it should be first noted that there were good and bad in both instances then as now. Having said that These troops today are head and shoulders better trained and motivated than we were. We still have some bad apples but the basic standard is very high.

I actually did the research on this and the volunteer force is NOT from the bottom 20%. The bottom 20% don’t qualify to get in the army. Now, the top 20% do not send their children into the service, but nearly all of the military come from the middle 3/5ths of our country. This force is actually more highly educated than the general population from the day they enlist. Hard to believe? It is actually true. Too many unchallenged myths are out there.

Captain D.S. Inbody, Ph.D. (Texas State University)

I think we are all missing the point behind the draft. The idea behind conscription is to make sure all the cultures and economic strata have equal representation in the military. It is immoral to base the military on an all volunteer basis because it will take advantage of the economically disadvantage groups everytime. I asked the military for those statistics because I believe we have what the American forefathers didn’t want and that is a military class. I was denied the data requested — not surprising.

The voluteer army is a copout invented by the vast majority of free loaders in this country that want freedom but want someone else to pay the price for it (90 + %)! I think that will change in the future because I think the fanatisist Islamist fundamentalists have figured out that attacks on US soil are more effective. This will again wake the sleeping giant that makes our country great. It will be ok to serve your country again. And when a self serving elected official starts saber rattling for an unjust war there will be enough that served that will put him / her in their place.

Then and now comparisons are seldom objective, so lets talk about going forward.
I served 2 years in Viet Nam then finished a career in many assignments. I saw no difference in capability or performance between draftees and RAs while in Viet Nam . Same strengths and weaknesses. While in Europe though, when the draft ended our battalion was devastated. Turned out fully 1/2 of our high achievers, young and strong Jr. NCOs and specialists left on early outs. We were stunned; It took 2 years to get back to the quality we had, thanks mostly to the harsh economy in the states at the time.
Forward is where we should look. How can the military of tomorrow best meet the challenges and assignments?
How about a core voluntary military, fleshed out with a large proportion of young Americans on 2 years mandatory Federal service?
Those who are not suited for military service, work in other needed areas from community service to literacy training for the 20% of us who can not read.
It’s not simply a military draft, but a service obligation to the nation and the people we cherish. Can the politicians and generals of today support such a vision?

you are right on .… right on .… we need a draft big time

We volunteer because we want to serve, the benefits are the afterthought. If you join for other reasons, then you really need to evaluate your thoughts. Your going to have duties you won’t like, your going to find out your recruiter lied to you, its the facts of life, deal with it. I was a Marine for seven years including six months in Iraq, we are well trained and equipped to do our jobs. I don’t need any quipps about being a female, when it all comes down to it, we are all Marines. You can say that drafting is a great thing and that it would cut down on the fiscal situation but what about the people that don’t want to just do their time and get out. There is no consideration there. Todays youth are insulate and ignorant, its sad and Gates is right, it does beg to asked, who will serve now. Our brothers and sisters serving now are tired, when it comes time for them to go, they will do what they will, go or stay but there has to be new recruits, I’d go back if I could, but I can’t due to medical reasons. The future is now, where do we stand?

You are absolutely right .…. the only solution is a draft .…. and I am one of the few that has served in both

Good Afternoon Folks,

To finish up yesterday which I was cut off by management.

The draftee in the US Army is in the Army Reserve, not the Regular Army. The conscripts service number’s starts is US which is short for United States Army Reserve and the first of the eight numbers started with a “5”, the Regular Army service numbers started with RA and the first number was either an“1 or a 2″. If a draftee re=enlisted he still kept his draftee service number the US was changed to RA.

To Colonel German. I remember those hearings and I agreed with what you guys were saying then and still do. But as I sure all of you knew at the the time ending the draft was a forgone conclusion. As you said then the time will come for hard decisions by society.

amc. You are right the cost of war can be seen in a VA Medical Center especially the Orthopedic Clinic, I was at one yesterday, I been a customer since 1967, I would guess before most of the posters were born.

Most of my fellow patients were Marines and all had that 1000 year look in their eyes. They are, contrary to what we are being told by the media, not getting the care they need and deserve. It is a shame, we have money in our society to feed corrupted management in companies like Lockheed Martin but not to give these men and women the care they should be getting. If history from my war is any indication nearly all of these brave men/women will not be around in ten years.

This is where the budget knife gets cut deepest. The blood on the budget knife is that of those who gave the most for reckless political adventuring in Iraq and Afghanistan.

They will live a life of pain, institutional neglect by the VA and often from their families, who just ware out looking after them. If you have never been in their chair or shoes you have no idea of what suffering and torment is. You have no idea how superficial the talk of F-35, new tanks, and LCS’s really is.

Byron. Now why would I want to be a politician or either Law Maker or Sec. of Defense. I have a beautiful ocean view from my front room, in the morning I can smell the salt air from the pacific from my front porch, anything I want I can have,I’ve been retired since I was 50, I’ve even had a net positive income the past three years, I have more then enough money, much more then I can ever spend. I’m just doing what I do because I want to do it.

Byron when you get to that point, you can do what ever you want and I do.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Part 1 / 2

Hi, buddy.

Let me quote some excerpts of your last two posts to me:

1) You “lunched outside, with some friends”, in honour of “me and of my conspiracy thoughts, which you salute”,

2) by “bringing grapes, baguettes, Brie and wine” (the frog caricature… But I suppose that you know better than that by now),

3) and the only fictional character which you also invited to your real-life party is “Bruno”, an “itinerant Police Chief in some Martin Walker novel” who “unfortunately didn’t show up in his white old van” (quote: “All we needed was for Bruno to come by in his old white van.”). His name is the only one that gets mentioned, and explained later.
And that right after I spent two cold nights with three friends (helpers at a house repair) waiting in vain for a real-life Bruno in a white old van, too.

But all the other guests / friends at your party were real people, made of flesh and blood, not imagined.

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

For starters, your on-stage-persona somehow never really struck me as such a festive, convivial, extroverted, outdoor Epicurean with a crowded social agenda, and as a medium for fictional characters.

And all of a sudden you also know tons about why “Military​.com” itself (!) prints or doesn’t print your posts here on “D.o.D. Buzz” – funny, they never talk to ME about that.

Your only problem is: If you keep posting on now on all imaginable U.S.- American military Web-sites under different monikers than “Byron Skinner”, but with the same characteristic, long-winded, never subdivided, semi-encyclopaedic commentaries, everybody will recognize you instantly. Hence my question: Is anything about me (about ME ??! ) or about some decade-old posts of mine which you unearthed somewhere in the dark Internet really worth blowing your charismatic, realistically construed identity, or did you just miscalculate my reaction?

Is your mission here maybe to control what your fellow U.S. militaries write, since the Days of The Chimp, under the clever guise of an “organizer of the Résistance” ?

I don’t believe he was attempting to belittle you Dennis, I think he’s just rightfully venting about feeling unappreciated.

Okay: YOUR offspring to the front, no child left behind!

Some star-spangled officer will stop in front of your house and give you a medal for the fallen ones (you have to accept it).

Did the current president, Barrack Obama refuse an MOH to tour the white house at any time or just one day when it might not have been a good day? Where did you read about this? I am interested if it was reported or you just heard a rumor.

Zombie.

Hey, sign up all them Gays and Illegals You an the Pres want They will fill ur ranks You freakin Idiots
You send our men into battle and tell them to be carefull and not kill anyone. You change from Victory to success
depending on what political party deems as a success. No wonder these men don’t want to serve, No one liks to fight with one arm behind thier backs

More money for education. I hear that everyday. What will more money do for education? Higher paid Administrators and a new Green building for them to sit in? Money does not go to the kids it goes for Bull Crap that has nothing to do with education Infastructure needs to be addressed but we have toi cut entitlement programs and things like the National endowment for the arts and stupid stuff like that

Mandatory military service as an “answer to hijacked planes, or even to nuclear Terrorism” ?

Would any Euros or even Japan react so BRAINLESSLY ? Or would they even pull any last troops out of YOUR wars?

That mercenary company’s new name is Xe, not Xi.

KMA

To the poster “James”

You wrote: “I personally believe you should earn your citizenship and right to vote by serving a period of time (minimum 2 years) in the military or some other service to our country. Citizenship is something to be proud of and is given away too cheaply, especially to the illegals in our country.”

What if the immigrants die (or commit war crimes) in wars, trying to get your precious citizenship?

Will young, genuinely U.S. American (“White”) conscience objectors be thrown out of their country, too (because they aren’t worthy of their citizenship) ?

Will the U.S. Americans become the first people to wear dog tags instead of having I.D. cards?

I believe that a large part of the “Divide Problem” is the increasing number of senators, representatives, and those who “do business” in the Washington area who either have limited experience or NO experience in the military so they can’t relate to what the soldier, airman, sailor has to confront each and every day. Military takes care of military!! Too much watching the ‘bottom line’ for security and peace of mind vs bailing out businesses that shouldn’t have been bailed out in the first place, so now we are in a fix. WITHOUT THE MILITARY, WHAT WOULD THIS COUNTRY BE LIKE? STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT!!

Nuristan.

Mr. Gates, message # 1
We need a WWII mobilization to get these wars over with, not string them out a 100 years. They are destroying our economy the way it is being done. They are bankrupting our spirit. Draft all 2 million of our state and federal prisoners into service as airborne cordon forces and attack forces. Arrest all illegal aliens sentence them to 3 years in the draft then run them through boot camp and jump school then dump them where our technology detects signs of life. Let country of origin get concerned about their ride home after they have served their time. Give all illegals a month to get back to their country or be volunteers for the struggle of freedom. All will have a great adventure story to write about when they get back.

troop emonds

.….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….….

To the poster “Byron” (quotation marks intentional)

You accidentally wrote to yourself, without changing sobriquets: “Byron. Now why would I… (etc.)

And:

“Byron when you get to that point, you can do what ever you want and I do.”

Pal, I think you’re getting too distracted even for your own standard games…

Don’t worry: PROBABLY NONE of these sheeples here believed me what I told them about “our common friend Bruno”, so they all still live on the moon…

Mr Gates, message # 2

I had a great job, and had no interest in the military, then in 1967 got drafted. Ended up in the Marine Corps in Vietnam for 68,69, &1970. Was an Infantry Officer in a lot of close quarters combat. It was a good experience until I came home to a pretty rude country that treated me as a criminal. I’m 67 now and will gladly step forward and do the same chores I did 40 years ago. No problem I’ll be glad to look out for the kids, and will never order them to head into the attack. I will go and if of value they will follow. I jumped out of airplanes my whole life have over 500 rough terrain jumps, so no problem jumping into the rocks with reluctant troops. And I’ll tell you they are all reluctant after the first few enemy contacts and dealing with death. My phone # 503–368-7099 I can leave for service as you get this

Captain troop an old Marine Company Comdr.

Maybe the overall quality of the recruit has declined with the all volunteer force due to the liberal agenda of the PC, me first, society that we have today. I came in right after the draft ended and served with draftees and volunteers and was proud to serve with both groups. I did my 20 years and didn’t join to “Have a family” as you suggest but to serve my country.

Totally agree.

Joe

I do agree with some of your points but you were out-of-line with the comment, “
As for conscription military — you loser Vietnam era folks don’t realize how many draft dodgers there were do you?”

I am a 20 year Retired Veteran and a Patriot Guard Rider who rides with mostly Vietnam Vets from all the services and our Chapter has a lot of former, retired and currently serving military who I am proud to call my friends.

My three brothers and I came from a typical American middle class family, Dad is a retired truck driverconstruction worker and Mom is a retired cashier. All of us did more than one tour, two of us retired, on went from active duty to National Guard and my youngest brother is an Annapolis graduate. most of my friends and shipmates were the same.

Sorry Byron,

You gave away that you NEVER served in the military with the below. I never saw this in the twenty + years I did in the military. Only time contractors were onboard were when we were doing acceptance testing for new shipssystems. Playing Call of Duty does not qualify you as former military.

“Civilian contractors still have to go to sea with the Navy to maintain and supervise the operation of many systems, civilian contractor still have to be with Patriot Batteries to oversee operations and maintenance, civilian contractors still over see ordinance handling for the USAF. I would even imagine that on SSN’s and SSBN’s their are still civilian contractors needed for service and support of weapons and other systems, and the Bubble Heads are suppose to be the best of the best.”

@7thwave

You were booted out weren’t you so you hate the military, right?

And most of the current military serves out of PATRIOTISM. Go to a Patriot Guard escort when troops come back next in your neighborhood and tell them to their faces. You’ed be beaten down by at least three generations of former military.

danfer, you need to quit drinking the koolaid.

And handouts for lazy liberals.

Steve,

First learn to spell, second I earned my education. Nothing was “Awarded” to me.

Umm Byron, In the late 70’s-early 80’s drug use was the highest for the last 30 years. Some of my fellow boots were offered jail or military so you have no idea of what you are talking about.

just hope my post don’t get “censoreddeleted” like yours.

LMAO!

eztext

I agree, too many politicians today are just that and were never anything else. Too bad we cannot make it a requirement to have served in the military to be able serve in public office. Too ofton non-military government old men send young warriors to thier deaths to make a political statement. Unfortunately that is a sin commited by both parties, Democrat and Republican.

“Mine your own data and stats and post”

How convenient. Another way of saying, “I have nothing to back up my statements”.

If any one reserches this country begain with the Holy Bible and teachings in the schools prayer and the new testament of Jesus Christ. I know this as I am from Americas First Family Honor roll R.I. 1640’s. When the Iron Curtain was pulled up by J.F.K. it took the teachings of Gods love out of the innocents of children. Oh this has so much to do with where we are today. We have no country without the one true God in us. We have become victim’s of disgrace. Too many Gods create disgrace for the one true God is a jelous God. Their is only sense O.T. times one whom God sent mankind to follow after peace on earth and good will towards all mankind. Jesus said to lay down our swords and follow after him. Whom wants our children to be real peace makers and stop following the old Gentiles ways and O.T. times. Their is but one answer to this situation at hand. The war machines are created by those whom have him not. We are but slaves to their race that have not Jesus Christ. These wars that last so long cost too much ! Even when our country is at a loss economic depression their looking for a way to make slaves of the children to fight this longing battle to lessen the cost’s. You will be all of them so little paid and mainly a roof over your heads and a meal till your lives are spent away​.It feels like Another Germany is on its way to revive and for how long ?.

Mr. Gates, Message # 3

I was 23 or so when drafted. I had better things to do. In the mud and leech filled bogs I got really upset with the system that sent my younger brothers to the slaughter house straight from the high school football team or some kid in trouble standing before some southern judge saying either you go into the Marine Corps or you go to prison take your pick? Anyway, it was still heart breaking carrying these kids to the helicopter either dead or really badly wounded. I thought then what the hell kind of a country sends its kids to go do its fighting????People over 50 who have already had their shot at living and mating are the exact ones who should be drafted. They would sure figure out how to end wars quickly. So I do not feel bad at all sending illegals and criminals to do it as long as they are in fact attackers and infantry types not in the rear with the gear.

Captain troop

I was a veteran of the Viet Nam Era . I went to Korea .When I left the Army I came back went to school for a while and got married I had two kids and joined the National Guard on a whim . It was one of the best moves I ever made [don’t tell my wife ].
From the first drill I went to till I retired 19 yrs later form the Reserves,there were many changes .There were a few guys left from the draft that stayed in the Guard [were there so they stayed home ]. They were the worse troops I have ever seen . They were poorly trained ‚undisciplined , and sorry to say very uneducated .
The officer corp had stripped the power of the NCO’s and had created a lazily bunch of guys ‚not troops but people who were paid and went in the woods once a month .
I happened to be in the right place at the right time . I was time for change and it did happen and it worked .I was one of 6 men from the draft Army that chose to join at the same time and we had more combat experience in one platoon than the Regular Army had in one Battalion.
We had men from Army units come to our company and comment we had the best lead and trained men they ever saw in the National Guard .
It was pure chance that the situation corrected it shelf we had experience ‚confidence and ability ‚along with the age to guide the younger men to the level I had not seen in 20 years .
The Army today is just like that and when I went to the Reserves I passed my experience to those I came in contact with at Ft Benning and they were amazed that some one from the Guard and Reserves had that .
To end this it comes to one thing if you have the man power and experience and will you can do it just look at what the Army is today compared to 30 years ago there is no other answer IT IS Great and as long as we continue with the program as it is it will continue but it needs help and care you can’t ask the few to carry the load much longer you will break it you need to make it bigger or you will lose it all again just like Viet Nam the country just wasted all the men and just let it fail .Don’t do it again and what ever the cost its worth it ‚Freedom Ain’t Free !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh and by the way the no cost way of invoking this will be the conversion of the VA’s by the stroke of a pen to the people’s hospitals. This will be formed and it will be done so we the citizens (not the retired congress and Senate members they have their own care) will all be sharing a common place Soldiers and Citizens alike waiting to receive our share of Caring from our service to this nation.

Good Morning Folks,

I got a message for a reader whom I know is a staffer for a member saw, and she mentioned that some body calling themselves a Phd from Texas did some “research” on my Recruiting data and wanted clarification. I gave it to her. She posted me back, asking if I would put on the board because she intends to use my posts here for a speech she is writing, so here is my ration of buzz posts for today, just for you Sweetie.

Personal Income from BLS 2010

Highest 20% (above $91,290.00)

Next 20% ($57,944.00-$91,289.00)

Next 20% ($36,070.00-$57,943.00)

Next 20% ($19,301.00-$36,069.00)

Lowest 20% (Below $19,301.00)

I think looking at the numbers, its very clear where the military recruits from.

OK Sweetie, there you are, you can now use this site in you bibliography for the speech you are writing.

To Phd in Texas, or what ever, I still didn’t find the post, your out of your league, go back to cleaning out the salt licks.

Well folks, I just used up the buzz’s ration of my posts for today, so y’all have a good one.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Mr Gates needs to think through how we are going to provide for and take care of todays force. If you want a strong future you need to take care of the past. Americans will always volunteer to serve their country, just take care of them and not make undeliverable promises.

Excellent thought,
I also was in the conscripted Army 1969–1975 . I reenlisted after 9/11.I am a veteran of 5 deployments since that time so I have seen both sides of your argument personally.I agree that there is a place for an across the board draft I also know that this is a political landmine and will never happen.
I disagree however with the assertion that the conscript was a better soldier,without opening up old wounds I have found that todays Volunteer Army is more intelligent ‚better trained more committed to the mission and to their fellow Soldiers.The burden of these present conflicts is being born by middle class kids as far as I can tell and although multiple deployments are difficult they remain a fact of life for the Volunteer soldier and are therefore accepted for the most part.

Gates is right. There is a growing divide between ordinary Americans and those who serve and fight for their country. It can not be overcome by debating whether voluntary service or draft will provide a quality fighting force. The divide is more likely to grow which ever method is used to find and train the military personnel. The divide issue is due to the lack of support for fights around the globe. I believe, people like Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King have clearly demonstrated that military is not needed to deal with social issues. The only legitimate use and need for organized military is to serve the global public when faced with natural or man made disasters. Any other use of military would be rash and unjustified. Once, that principle is well enshrined in the thoughts, minds and missions of the military around the globe, then, the growing divide will automatically disappear. Congress, Judiciary and the executive branches of any and all governments will be able to deal with the “meeting the needs” of both the serving, as well as, the served.

Bring back the draft for men and women. Mandatory 3 year service for all. No exemptions. Freedom is not free and neither is the national debt. Pay for wars with real money not borrowed from tomorrow. National Defense will be reduced to defending the constitution of the USA rather than doing “God’s work”. I assure you, Viet Nam, Grenada, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan would not be considered threats to the national security of the USA and nor would the USA retreat in humiliation.

600 billion dollar defense budget is unsustainable. It will destroy economy.

Conscription or All Volunteer is not the issue. All volunteer is better but unsustainable.

To argue that conscribtion is the way to go is ridiculous and frankly this SecDef has lost me as a supporter. I first signed up back in the mid 70s and that Army was lucky we never faced the Russian hordes. Most were druggies and if they were drugged out they were drunk! That was what Vietnam left as a legacy. Today’s Army, of which I am still a prt of, is vastly more professional, intelligent and competent. The Draft is a horrible idea and no I do not care to lead a bunch spoiled brats who don’t want to be here. The system is working, Defense is the primary mission of the Federal Govt, not Education, Health Care, Social Security etc, etc, etc. Kill of the wasteful programs and fully support Defense with a leadership that believes in that too.

Just an FYI, one does not “win” the CMOH they are awarded it.


Civilian contractors still have to go to sea with the Navy to maintain and supervise the operation of many systems, civilian contractor still have to be with Patriot Batteries to oversee operations and maintenance, civilian contractors still over see ordinance handling for the USAF. I would even imagine that on SSN’s and SSBN’s their are still civilian contractors needed for service and support of weapons and other systems, and the Bubble Heads are suppose to be the best of the best. ”

This is mainly due to the military “farming out” these positions. When I worked for DLA “we were civilian contractors”. The young Navy folks did not even have to mow lawns, take out trash etc etc because there was a government contract for a civilian company to do it.

this delusional byron character makes me I’ll. It seems to me he (or she…hmmm) spends more time in his, or her basement ranting from behind a stack of books he never read, and pizza boxes, when he should be out enjoying the freedoms he supposedly “fought” for, instead of doling outinsults to people who question his data and where he found it. Is as if he loves to be the center of attention and you all love to humor this pompous individual. Go outside and enjoy yourpacific view and quit instigating neverending discussions which are obviously for ego-boosting purposes. Do you need a hug, “princess B”? I think you do.

First, I see the deteriorating benefits of the military as a problem for staffing. However there are other changes that are needed. First there’s the age issue. Men of senior years have served since the Revolutionary War. The English, Canadians, etc, still allow much older men to serve than the US. At 60 I am just as fit as I was at 28 when I got out. Secondly, some countries require that every man that isn’t disabled serve 3 years. Talk about jobs? However, probably the biggest problem that I can think of for the Military at this time is putting people in the office of Commander in Chief that you wouldn’t follow nor would I.

Danf.… You’re an idit. There are as many Christians in service as out of service… Maybe you need to check-up on yourself… RJD

So it is worse to extend a volunteer in theater to maintain unit cohesion, (fight with those you trained with) than to force someone (draft) who never wanted to defend the country in the first place into a unit he/she has never heard of, doesn’t know the history/lineage or even mission, and everyone else’s life depends on this guy doing his job? Worse to force someone to stay in than force someone to go in who never signed up? Not sure I can follow your logic/reasoning.

take all of us old vets,leave the kids at home,weve been their and done that.let the kids raise their families,we have already raised ours.I bet we could beat the hell out of em.we are already trained in how to take an enemy out.besides that we are so damn old it wouldnt matter if you got your ticket punched.
so take us old vets we ready,you would be surprised how many really are wanting to go​.do a survey and you will see that what I said is true.old guys dont have any thing to do but be bored to death​.so give us a cjhance.
semper fi,
gy/sgt j.j.johnston

Gates question, a government self examination, is another clear design flaw in what government has tried to make this country. The notion there are “Ordinary Americans” and there are those who will fight for this country is indicative of the great divide between the influx of new citizens who hold allegiance to foreign powers and home nations vs. those whose roots and families (vested interests) have been here for generations that have assimilated and adopted language (American English), culture, national pride, responsibility and reason to protect this nation. We are in an age where conflicts and fighting are examined under microscope, as life is precious and not to be wasted. And as a nation we look for short term results to settle disputes or remove tyranny, not ongoing battles of cultural ideology. Political policy leadership representing the goals and visions to a better America for Americans is what the nations leadership has failed to provide giving more weight to greed vs. maintaining our national pride and heritage. Where once our national values was a beacon of light shed upon the earth, its now at the end of a sword. Where once our military and technological advancements (built under strict rules of secrecy) were the envy of all nations, its now sold at affordable price tag with financing. Fostering military leadership to run for office won’t mean better policy, but a different slant on policy. We live in world where tolerance and respect for others must be accepted by all nations ( and that includes ours). Gates question is simple. Government broke this nation, how do we fix it? And as Gen. Colin Powell once quoted, ‘You break it, you pay for it ! The fix will be difficult as there is now an America steeped with people (voters) not interested in preserving this country having roots in other nations within range of air transportation, not long ocean voyages. My starter would be bring back the Pledge of Allegiance to flag and country, and begin to right the wrongs of US Constitutional abuse.

Byron,
In one of your posts you said something about being a liberal and because of that, many of your posts are censored or deleted. I beg to differ. Even though you are wrong most of the time, there is NO way that your posts are being deleted on purpose. Your entertainment value alone is why they do not delete your posts. I would even argue that they give you special treatment. Take a look at how long your posts are, if I try to write a post that long, this site makes me break it up into several shorter posts. So keep ‘em coming and keep us laughing.

Agreed — but EVERYONE seems to be missing the point that it is unfair ‚and unproductive in the long run, to allow a select few (whatever their reason) to provide the military PROTECTION that is required. IMHO EVERYONE needs to give some service time to our country — be it military or civil service — in order to vote!
I know you liberals will love that but think about it — WHAT ELSE, THAT HAS ANY ONGOING VALUE, IS FREE?

We need to get back to basics and one of the most very basic elements of citizenship is making a contribution for the common good.

THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!

Several comments have already hit the “V” ring, yet, it’s worth emphasizing this general theme again: The situation is not likely to improve until the United States returns to a selective service system: a Draft. And a draft that has practically no exemptions and that drafts women along with men. No exemption for graduate school; no exemption for law school; no exemption for medical school. Get it? For all who say the scenario just outlined will never come to pass.…you’re right, it won’t…because our ‘elected officials’ do not have the courage to pursue it. Sure, “the American people” want us to romp world-wide killin’ the bad guys and makin’ it safe fer democracy…but the American people don’t want to deal with the price tag. Maybe, just maybe if the war was brought home to America like the Viet Nam war was seen on the 6 o’clock news every day of the week 40 years ago…we would be not so eager to put our young people in harm’s way.

Signed, A Marine Veteran

Excuse me! Have you ever heard about ans seen pictures of the Normandy Invasion of the Battle of the Bulge?

THESE WERE ESSENTIALLY DRAFTEES!!!

We weren’t perfect — no institution is!

Look at what the Catholic church is going through today!

The problem of motivation is really easily solved — just link 2 years of service (public or military) to the right to vote.

We have to EARN everything else in life — why not the right to vote?

Thank you for your 20+ years of service. However, I disagree with your assessment that today’s military is “pathetic, poorly disciplined, and not fit to fight.” Today’s combat arms troops are some of the most disciplined, hard working, and battle experienced soldiers in the modern era. If you have seen Rangers or Special Operations Units conduct missions on objectives, you would be hard pressed to say any of the three points that you have previously stated. I do realize that negative news is sometimes the only news that the public has to gauge the military. However, these units conduct combat operations every single day, with back-to-back objectives. Common sense dictates that Murphy’s Law will eventually play its part. I’m not here to say one generation is better than the next. I am here to defend the soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen that are out there right now on behalf of this nation.

There is a 59 year old SFC who served in Vietnam that is attached to 20th SFG and is in Afghanistan right now.

There was also another SFC who served in Vietnam and also in Afghanistan. He paid the ultimate price. http://articles.cnn.com/2009–08-21/world/afghanis…

Math is done.

The only reason we haven’t destroyed our enemies is simple. We aren’t allowed. Our hands are tied with restrictive ROE and we are trying to win the hearts and minds and nation build when we should be going in and slaughtering our enemy until their will breaks.

As far as our soldiers being uneducated, most infantry soldiers scored the top of the ASVAB. I know I did as did pretty much everyone in the barracks in Korea. Yes you had some idiots but they were the exception other than the rule. Gates is a disgrace who is looking for ways to enact Obama’s anti-military ideals by destroying the all volunteer force which is the heart of our military and replacing it by a draft, people who do not want to be there, who will do anything to get out.

Boomer, you are right about the tech stuff of today,but I have worked both contractor,and goverenment, My son was wwonded in Ramadi,I also served cold war ‚gulf war and three trips as a goverenmnet employee equipment specialist. Todays soldier is in fact less physicaly fit,and not really as intelegent as we would think.mosy evry piece of equipment in todays army is serviced repaired, and litterly maintained by contractors. I am 51 years old retired in 94. and actually passed a PT test for 20 to 25 year olds. I have seen it from 3 sides and in some ways yes they are better but in many they are not. Mentally they are not pushed as we were as far as stress and harasment,and physically not much better, and none except Infantry know their job or their systems as we did.

This discussion could and has gone on for decades. There is no right or wrong. Perhaps the cost of wars could be mitigated by simply adopting a national policy of trying to get along with the rest of the world and not being so quick to go to war for all the wrong reasons. When national security is truly threatened, then we should act but not until there is a general concensus between leadership, citizenships and the military. Ever since Vietnam we have jumped the gun (no pun intended) when it comes to “going to war”. In nearly every case the administration has got it all wrong when they though we were being attacked or they perceived and attack was imminent. Paranoia has ruled. Common sense has lost out. Maybe if the United States were a better neighbor to the rest of the world the rest of the world would not feel so threatened and hate us. Bye the way, the U.S. is pretty much hated universally today. Try some foreign travel and see if this is not confirmed.

As a member of the military both Regular Army and Reserves for the past 33 years I’ve seen cost of the military rise due to civilian contracting. Occupational structures that the military use to do such as Medical, Supplies, ect handed over to public contractors at a large price. It’s time to bring the draft back, the troops back, and do the job it was intended to do. Defend and Protect.The Constitution Of All Enemy, Foreign and Domestic and to watch over the borders of this great Country

Our main problem is the politicians in D.C. They are doing everything they can to hold back our economy to support their war machine. If there were jobs in the private sector, not many would volunteer for military service. Without the wars, the politicians and their cronies that make big bucks from military contracts would lose a lot of income. All they care about is money and their interests. Americans are being used and abused by their government and they keep listening to the lies and putting the same crooks back in office. Are Americans too dumb to see what is happening? It is a shame the U.S.A. is in this downhill spiral.

1. The DOD sets force ‘quality’ marks’ in terms of education and ASVAB scores (as well as medical) that mean today’s force is significantly better educated and talented. Simple facts. And, yes, I was a draftee way back when. About 75% of today’s youth are not fully qualified to serve.

2. The BCT attrition rate varies widely (literally from company to company) as a function of policies, training design, injuries, and command climate. Today’s BCT is dramatically more difficult than ‘way back when.’ Just look at PT (we did the 1 mile shuffle; today it is a 2 mile run; in some cases 5). Today’s rate is about 8–9% and I’d argue the volunteer force ‘sees’ discharges differently than the draft-era Army.

3. Draft or no draft, the world is changing. Kids take buses to school, don’t have gym, etc. so underfitness and fatness rates are up. 30% do not graduate high school. Osteopenia rates are high (kids rarely drink milk).

4. No question more can be done. ROTC is a closed system so only a few can join at a few locations at limited points in their education process. Could easily have a 2-summer ROTC program open to all colleges. The military could have community COMREL fitness programs where local units teach PT in period 8. The military needs better validated screening programs and better treatment programs. The old Fitness Training Units worked and could be brought back (perhaps expanded for overweight like in the draft era and under educated but talented). Pie in the sky? The USMC reduced their BCT injuries and attrition dramatically by putting Certified Athletic Trainers forward.

I say bring back the draft. I’m a 26 year veteran and believe that the all-volunteer military has been incredibly effective in cold and hot war but not on the homefront. That’s because politics has intervened to stratify and divide the nation. Volunteers mostly come from areas/families that have contact and exposure to the reality of national defense. Many come from areas geographically associated with the military (read the South). The military has closed northern bases and built up southern bases over the last half century.
Young men in this country need some reality in their lives. The draft or threat of the draft would be just the ticket to kick start the lives of some of the lazy, disrespectful punks out there. Some of them would take their newfound discipline and bring it home to influence the next generation with positive results to society. A social program? Yeah maybe, but we’re going to have to deal with them one way or another.
For those concerned with the inevitable reduction in quality were the draft to be introduced, just limit the number of conscripts. Start out with 5%. It would have a positive benefit to society in a big way and the negatives would be diluted.

You’re despicable 7thwave. “Pathetic. Poorly disciplined. Not fit” ??? I have the courage to flame you, and I am in today’s military. I also served in the early 90’s — only coming back in after a 12+ year break. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that today’s military is not washed up, pathetic, and not disciplined. Tell me which 20 years you served? The 20 years that included the rampant drug use in Vietnam??

*I* want to serve in a military. My brother wants to. Some of my best friends want to. And I would (and do) trust my life in their hands. You, sir, are the pathetic one. Go hate yourself somewhere else.

The only way to close the divide that Sec Gates discusses is to reinstitute the draft and make it mandatory for every American to serve at least two years in the Armed Forces…this is extreme and goes against the grain of the all volunteer force, but in order to sustain the Armed Forces as a microcosm of American Society, they the Military must reach across all facets of the society regardless of sex, race, religion etc. And quit playing the role of Policeman of the World. If not, then the abuse that Charles mentions will continue. Oh and did I mention that the abuse of the force comes primarily from those who have NEVER worn a uniform. And while we are changing things, lets make it a requirement for any elected official to either Congress or the White House and even those selected to serve on the Supreme Court have at least served two years and have been honorably discharged. Think about it.

Sorry, the facts don’t back it up. The DOD education and ASVAB standards are much higher than draft era. 75% of today’s youth can’t fully qualify to join.

Today’s BCT is significantly more challenging than the draft-era BCT (yes I was a draftee). Just look at PT (1 mile shuffle vice the 2 mile run; some do 5). Today’s BCT has combat load (helmets, IBA, weapon, LBE, etc.) and combat-oriented tasks. Injuries are a major predictor.

A house-by-house analysis shows volunteers coming from all socio-economic groups. People join for a lot of reasons.

The BCT attrition rate varies widely. Today it’s about 8–9%. Entry osteopenia is high, but unscreened for. The military diet is unvalidated. Command climate, training design, and policies affect the attrition rate more than the kids do.

Draft or no draft, things have changed. KIds are less fit and more fat because high schools have changed. Who walks to school? Who drinks milk anymore? Who has gym? And, we didn’t draft women.

Can more be done? Yep. Open up ROTC (it’s a limited access system). Set-up a 2 BCT system (9 week and 12 week). Validate a military diet. Better fix forward care (USMC reduced injuries and attrition by 70%).

But the rose-colored glasses of yesteryear are full of false images.

Thanks for inspiring words @jemc50–after finishing grad studies and seeing other countries, enjoying the benefits of being a citizen in the greatest, freest nation on the planet, I have realized that I owe my country a great debt that can only be paid in uniform. I could easily take a different route, staying in academia or going into the private sector, but too many American men and women have paid the highest price for the rest of us. It is time for me–and the thousands out there like me–to settle the debt of freedom and answer the call to enlist and serve.

I feel where you are coming from — I’m 49 myself, both knees and shoulders are shot from all the running and swimming over a 20 year period, my last two years even though I wasnt required to after all the surgeries I had, I would put on my leg braces and PT with the youngsters just to show them they had no excuses for not performing to standards. The run portion of the PT today is harder but the calestenics are not and that is what can make or break you, it does no good to be able to run 5 miles (unless you are going to run away from the bad guys) if your body is not strong enough to handle the load. In my early days it was not unheard of to put a guy into a 100 inverted pushups with gear on, try that these days and you will wind up in front of the green table. Fighters need to be trained and fit to fight with bare hands & rocks in need be — all the tech stuff should be secondary and not primary.

I agree with HasBeen. I’m retired Army Enlisted and still on the job for DoD as a civilian. I’m also a Vietnam vet and believe that today’s force is better trained. While the draft delivered a broader range of people with varying skills, etc. it also delivered lots of problems. The best job I’ve had in years is the one that’s allowed me the privilege of working day in and day out with Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines (Active, Reserve, Guard). Are all of them super stars and Heroes?? Of course not. There are certainly duds in the mix as well. Never the less, my hats off to the many (men and women) that do the no kidding heavy lifting in often unimaginable conditions and situations.

RE convicted felons.

Everybody gets a background check through the FBI and local police.

Guess what? There is no centralized database from every agency.

Guess what? ‘Felonies’ can range from very minor things to real crimes.

A kid was captain of his football team, an A student, and his 17 year old girlfriend got consensually pregnant. Parents charged him with statutory rape; he is a felon. Let him join?

A 12 year-old boy shoplifts a gameboy. He is convicted of a felony. He has led an exemplary life since then. Let him join?

Everytime the military changes something, folks love to scream ‘lowering standards.’ It’s simply not true. Time magazine accused the military of coddling trainees because they were serving them ‘gourmet’ meals at the range out of insulated cans (the food service menu called roast beef and gravy ‘au jus’).

The main problem with the all volunteer force as opposed to the force of volunteers supplemented by those drafted is the sense of entitlement that young people in the service today, think they have earned. John F. Kennedy said it back in the 60’s. “Ask not, what your country can do for you, but rather, what you can do for your country”. Arguments about who is smarter or more patriotic and braver than who, serve nobody save those making the arguments. Regardless, the only response is to examine an argument, examine the person or group making the argument, and attempt to determine the motive of the group or person making the argument and whether it has merit or is self serving. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who served in the armed forces during the Viet Nam era were draftees, some of us were Volunteers before the armed forces were all Volunteers. Think about that, then think about the diffrence a generation can make in what the word Volunteer means.

I agree retrop. We in a way have become an agressor, when in the past we were defenders. I have always believed that we should never go to war unless their was a clear threat to our way of life, and we should never go to war unless we were attacked or an alli was in deep stuff and ask for support. OIF is an example of what should not be done. Vietnam is an example of what happens when politicians try and fight the war and not let the folks on the ground do what they need to do.NAm wasbad not because the troops were wrong, but Popliticians ran it. OIF was bad and will be bad because it is unjust and politicians run it.Our nation, and the Military need to get back to basics and our real mission, defense and vigilants.

A lot of the disconnect is base closures. Seen any airplanes fly overhead that are military? Men in uniform. Maybe one or two in Wal Mart that are pulling reserve duty. Or a recruiter. There are even some states without a major base. We’ve even cut shipyards and ports. Bases and military running around town are recruiting tools. Out of sight, out of mind.

War that does not defend this nation or protect this nation’s vital interest? Sharia Law is the stealth attack Jihadists have cleverly devised to lull us into such thinking. Military arms probably is not the most effective method of thwarting stealthy Sharia takeovers that are unfortunately happening in Europe today at an akarming rate. Happening so fast that analysts predict Europe will be radically changed within 20 years to have erased all the western history that is our heritage. Already our young people cannot safely travel to view the hallmarks of Greek Plays, Roman roads, the Magna Charta, Guttenberg Press and thousands of other hall marks of the western civilization we have been priveleged to live within.

Really? Are we spending this much cyber-space discussing which era soldier was/is better? I re-enlisted after a 22 year absence. Why? My children are grown and I believe in my country. I took a $20K CUT in pay from my civilian job to deploy to Afghanistan and I served with young and old. I am not rich and the pay cut was worrisome for me, but I serve because that is what soldiers do. When I was younger I was active duty. Now, I am a reservist. I have a college education and in the public sector I work in software. I am over 40 years old and can easily pass my PT. I consider myself well educated, physically fit, and a member of the middle class. I do not think this country is perfect, but I still believe it is THE PEOPLE who make it what it is. That is why I volunteer to defend it. Every day I tell my friends to vote. We tend to blame government for everything and we forget that WE are part of that process. EVERY soldier of EVERY era took the chance of placing his or her life on the line. ALL soldiers deserve the respect of those they protect.
How do we appeal to bright, fit citizens to join the armed services? My answer in my next comment.

I would have to agree with you Navy-guy! Enough of who is smarter, or educated, or too much weight etc.
All citizens should give two years of national service — like dozens of other countries to — and maybe our “democracy” would be better served.

I served in Vietnam and Iraq, and I can tell you from experience that the draft brought soldiers in that would not have reddely joined the service. Altho they did not want to be in Vietnam some were great assets to the army mission and had an even greater ability to think outside the box. Many drafties were able to aid in the decision making process in mission planning. They knew that army doctrine was not the answer to every battle. Though they didn’t want to be there they assimilated and supported their fellow soldiers and missions.

The bigger picture is You may be fighting with those you trained with but does your training fit the fight? Does any one in the unit have the balls to tell the leadership that they are fighting the wrong war tacticly? When you have a career in the army you are most likely not going to rock the boat, a draftee is more than likely going to let it be known that the mission is bad one and needs a better plan. History and lineage is useless in battle, good tactics and support will win the battle. Suppose the draftee coming to your unit has trained more intensly than your unit and has some good ideas that will enhance your unit’s fighting ability?

Am a Vietnam era graduate in architecture, then drafted, went to OCS, Airborne and Ranger schools, advised a Vietnamese Ranger Battalion. Seemed that out of “the draft” all troops rose or sunk to their level of capability, and there were many more of us to fill the Army. The draft, having lived it, gave me a sense of loyalty to my country,” and training/experience for three years that I needed. Today, visiting Ft. Benning OCS school is really sad. You really don’t have to swim that river and make it across, just get your feet wet and try.“
As far as equipment, the current infantryman has all the bells and whistles, as opposed to my compass, and M-1 carbine (advisor weapon 66–67). But (for those of you that boat/yacht/sail) I keep paper charts on the bridge, just in case the electronics fail. I don’t think that a current U.S. infantry battalion could win an engagement with a Russian one. My opinions , my experience, my story, and I’m stickin to it.
an older, wiser, lieutenant

Mr. Knight, No longer can a “citizen soldier” expect to put 20 years in the Reserve or Guard and not be deployed. One must expect that by joining in the first place that the Oath and the obligation that goes with it will result in numerous family disruptions. No one forced anyone to join the Military in the last 3 decades.

I am a retired Army NCO and career civil service DoD investigator with 36 years and 9 months total government service. I am doing well financially, kids are graduated from college and universities. I would gladly contribute one more year of active duty service and assist where I can be used most effectively in crime scene or general investigations, detective duties or similar law enforcement skill craft. I would be useful in many ways; frontline, garrison or base level, to temporarily help relieve the manpower shortage. However, when I previously relayed my desires to HQ PERSCOM, they failed to respond or neglected to take me up on my offer. The military retiree is greatly overlooked and the actual key to gaining successful ground in today’s budget shortfall in the voluntary military forces during these financially challenging times within DoD. I am already employed with DoD; so how difficult is that to arrange? What is a true patriot to do in order to help our country?

In defense of your position, it has been proven may times over that older soldiers (35+) are more responsible, take less unnecessary risks, and are generally better better at handling combat stress then younger soldiers. So, yea I agree, let the old guys fight.

How then, do you purpose REPLACEMENTS are found? What are the rerasons for the Reserves? What are the duties of any Giuard Unit during a war? We have the polical people dictatinng this war and the miliatry is also dictated in how, when, and where, they will fight the enemy? You need TRAINED perrsonnel, where are they to come from, if not from the Reserves and Guard Units. The polical people cut the size of our acive personnel for peacetime duty, never bringing it up to wartime needs? Everyone isd afraid of drafting ouir young, and the other Nations invloved will never draft their young. All except Iseralis that is.…They are at war similar to this one, actually it is one of the same but no one wants to connect the dots here do they?
Steve

Amen brother, also pay me the same as a civ, i’ll go today (90K).

So you are saying that the justification for hate is in this book. So, I guess you have never read the bible. I have read the bible and there are many awful things in it too. You are telling me that an intelligence person like yourself is believing everything you read in a book. Remember, this is a book (The Threat to America) for profit.

Amen brother,
I think today’s military requirements and regulations are asinine and grossly out of line with reality. On one hand they bitch about nobody seving, and in the same breath, turn away (less then) perfect canidates because of age, improper education, unrelated or non-issue medical problems, etcetera.
Try to enlist and be prepared with fight in a battlefield of ridiculous regulations and paperwork.

Agreed WWII Vet. First, thank you for your service during an epic and incredibly dangerous time in American history. My father and many uncles also served during World War II. Regrettably, all but one uncle are gone now. I do see your point that the responsibility to defend the country should be shared. I just regret that a draft alone is being viewed as the determining answer to the issue. People need to have desire and responsibility and understand their place as citizens in an interactive constitutional republic. They need to have that responsibility instilled in them from an early age so that they will have the desire to serve, much as your generation did. It was my understanding that the draft of World War II served more as a system to induct personnel in an orderly manner than as forced conscription because of the intense patriotism in this country during those difficult times, at least that is what the previous generation in my family told me. A draft, if we ever return to one, should be a contributing factor, not the sole determining factor toward needed manpower.

Poor uneducated folks are the only ones who join the military — some of you sure are full of themselves, I knew many collage grads who joined simply because they wanted to — especialy after 911. Also a degree and silver spoon wont get you much on the outside these days eithier so what are yall doing (sponging off the tax payers?). I did 24 yrs active duty — dpopped out of the 9th grade and have a GED, I walked right into a $42.00 an hour job because I have experiance no college can teach you, I have guys with masters degrees that I fired because they cant get a grip on things, so dont act like college makes you better than our troops because your not. If they would drop welfare and unemployment most of you would be washing dishes because the military would not take you. Do not bash or pretend to know my guys till you have served and bled along side of them.

77705256
“Who will serve?” Indeed it will not be you or I at this juncture we are too old and irrelevent. The NAM, Somalia, Congo, SA, Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the little in betweens. They are gone and so will our rhetoric. The new world will be dominated by China, India, possibly Russia, etc.. The USA will be relegated to a back of the seat economy. I just hope our morals and convictions will be upheld “One nation under God…”, the Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, and Constittution. May this Republic live-on!

There is a law on the books that allow for a stand in to take your place during the term of their military obligation. The halves and halve nots are more pronounced today than during the time of the Viet Nam Police action

The wars are being fought remote controlled, you will see the fat pockets join in the Air Force where the officers take the credit from those actually doing the job and being the expert. They fill positiions that put them in charge as long as they don’t get in the way and mess things up. The ground troops will not see anyone that isn’t expendable; they thinned those folks out before they got someone killed.
The technical needs of the military should bring in the good minds and train them to meet government requirements. Training on the spot has educated most of what Uncle Sam has to offer; OJT has always made the needs known making clarity clear and what changes are necessary. Those I have witnessed that were quick to evaluate and move on the correction were farm boy’s and girl’s where they fix it in place and on the run. The availability of education and training is greater today than ever before. The money earned by todays military is exceptional and worth it. Fewer of our troops leave after their first term; there is your reason for it.

You have my respect. (I’m not U.S. American)

I’m not bored with my job, but do you know what keeps ME from thinking precisely the same about my country (France), too? The firm conviction that actually N-O-N-E of our land forces’ weapons were selected and built for any technical merit, but for delusional, obsolete nationalism’s and typical, putrid business’ sake, and I REFUSE to take up arms again (voluntarily) under these circumstances! Our leaders SYSTEMATICALLY WEAKEN us militarily for chauvinism’s sake, not because we “can’t afford” much better (and sometimes way cheaper…) foreign weapons, imagine! Real talents are being wasted, if not sacrificed this way. It disgusts me, this clearly smacks of FATHERLAND TREASON AND INTERNATIONAL RIDICULE ! If it wasn’t for our nuclear forces, I can hardly describe you how vulnerable we are today again to invasions from East of the Rhine…

How many more Battles of France have to happen, before our cretine, corrupt Defense Ministry stops this BULLSHIT ?

Best wishes for your future in the military service.

THE SAME PEOPLE THAT GO NOW ‚BUT TELL ME SEC.GATES WHY DO YOU CARE,YOU ARE CUTTING ALL ADVANCE SYSTEMS THAT THE FUTURE MILITARY WOULD NEED TO FIGHT THE NEXT TYPE OF WAR.….YOU GOT THIS GOVT. NOW THAT DOES NOT CARE ANYTHING ABOUT OUR MILITARY.…YOU GOT THIS PRESIDENT THAT PUT 2 “MUSLIMS” ON OUR “HOME LAND SECURITY” IN A VERY HIGH POSITION WITH ALL THE SECRETS WE HAVE.….SO AGAIN I ASK YOU SEC.GATES WHY DO YOU CARE,YOU ARE DOING NOTHING TO HELP THE MILITARY NOW.….

Think we have to realize That you have to pay what you have to pay for a decent military. When teh economy was booming under Bush and the Republican congress, and teh war in Iraq was going badly it was very hard to find people willing to serve. Every service had problems recruiting and saving mid career leaders. But once the Democrats took over Congress in 07 and presidency in 09 and sent economy South recruiting and retention went through the roof. Fact is money spent on the Military does far more for teh econmy and jobs than welfare and other social spending. Find the cuts there, but keep our military strong.

Good luck finding many 50+ year old civilian cubicle dwellers that could even pass the physical for the military. Most 50+ year olds I know are overweight, have diabeties, back trouble, poor vision, arthritis, heart trouble, or some other ailment. I am only 38 but I would die if I were out in the 113 degree heat in Iraq carrying all that gear. It probably wouldn’t have bothered me much 20 years ago but I am not 18 anymore. LOL

That’s right, the wars won with air and naval forces, and no boots on the ground, are legendary. There’s.… ahh, well.… and ? Maybe Kosovo, except there are still NATO boots on the ground there, and were a lot of ours. The answer was two more divisions and 110% authorized troop strength in ’02 and it still is– and draft if necessary. Yes, use the Reserves/NG when necessary, but you can’t use them indefinitely with call-ups every 3 or years or you won’t have reserves. If that requires a draft, with all its benefits and problems, so be it. Keep pay low for 1st termers, and volunteer Army pay for those who re-up

Anyone who served during Nam, and after ’74, served in both. We’re hardly few-yet.

Byron, Just a note about the drugs in Viet Nam. I was there in 67–68 and the drug scene was pretty hard core and as an NCO and platoon SGT I can say there were few that didn’t partake in at least pot. I had a close relationship with my men and what you say is pure crap. When I left the states drugs were not an issue and only knew of one guy that ever smoked pot in the states. When I left Nam guys were bringing back pounds and more of China White (heroin) and a bunch of hash and pot. I grew up not far from Haight-Ashbury and yeah you could no doubt find pot but those I knew never did . Mama San would have her rolls of joints and trade for apples which they loved and would come by everyday. The drug of choice then was alcohol . I never made a stink about pot but if they left camp with alcohol on their breath they were dealt with harshly.

The only division is the one the democrats wish into place to isolate and disrespect the military.

These wars that last so long cost too much !

Mike the wars that cost so much is only chump change compared to what is spent in this country on Illegal aliens.

Amen

“What are you smoking? No offense to any who served in Vietnam, but the quality of our training today is far better than what the average draftee got back in the 1960s and early 1970s.”

Willie C, I am a Vietnam Vet that and as a reservist I was called to war again in Iraq 04. I can tell you that the army bureaucracy has sharply declined. Our fighting force of young soldiers that can defiantly be counted upon to do their best to complete the mission are only as good as the leadership that is hardly as good as the leadership of Vietnam. And be sure to know the difference between training and indoctrination.

There maybe alot of young fellows that will enlist in the service of our country, but I expect that the way it is going in the service that many will ask out as soon as they can. I know of such as told me by a inlaw. I wonder what will be down the line when the service does not gets the men they need. I faught in ww2 and was proud to do it and still proud I did. Will the same feeling be in the wars today and the men that fight them.

que razon tienes

If cost is such a factor, then stop the ones in Washington who get to vote their own pay raises, medical deals for a life time, and all the perks to follow. The real reason that there is a budget shortfall is that in times past, we profited as a country from war. We made our own steel, rubber, arms, etc. Now it is all imported and we have to pay for it all in addition to the pay, medical, etc. of the military. We do not need to cut soldiers pay or medical benefits. Have any of you visited a VA hospital and did not have to wait for hours to be seen? Government health care at its best! Ha! Try to get a non-emergency surgery scheduled for less than 6 months away. Good luck! Like I said before, take away the ones in Washington right to vote themselves all the perks for doing virtually a less than 8 hour a day workday. Also I think a prerequisite for the presidency should be that they HAVE served in the military and they would have a better sense of what is going on. For those of you who are putting our military down, maybe you should walk in their boots before making judgements!________

“.….……a portion of that total going to working-age retirees whose premiums and co-pays have not been increased in some 15 years.”

Where has this ostritch been for the past 12 years?
These stuffed shirts really piss me off, & More so around election time.
I dont know of any group of thuggs, Mafioso members who can out do or out talk anyone more than these figgin cowards who have NO IDEA what price each and every individual who EVER has worn the Uniform, has PAID…living and dead(KIA). Keep readin’ as NOV 2 gets closer.…the Real Liars will be out in droves.

Read more: http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​0​/​0​9​/​3​0​/​w​h​o​-​w​i​l​l​-​s​e​r​ve-…

I really don’t believe a draft is the answer. During Vietnam, i understand those guys really fought for each other, and there were plenty of heroic actions. It really is a different world today. Back then most respected authority, now, not so much. We really hurt the cream of the crop by detouring to Iraq. We should be outta A-stan by now, with a robust counter-terror organization in the “Big Army’s” place. We destabilized the region when we went to Iraq, truth is, i never thought it was about WMD to begin with. The United States has been sold to special interests, this is about going BACKWARDS. Why should the top 3% of rich get more taxbreaks? WHO is gonna pick up the bill? Thats right, me and YOU..their will be more sales tax, they will run us INTO THE GROUND FOR GOOD!!

Campmulli , Thank you and your family for yours and their service. A very descriptive post. I don’t recall anyone promising direct medical care when I retired, but every promotion board I had to describe or define CHAMPUS. Now it is called TRICARE, a very unstable and unreliable insurance who uses medicare lead to provide poor service and coverage, which the beneficiaries have to pay for, along with deductable and 20% of allowable billing, if one can find a provider. The alternate option of PRIMRE so one can be seen at an MTF is short providers thus understaffed and over burden. There lies a story much more relevant and current, than to draft or not.
Well, the CIC decided everyone needs health coverage along with the writing on the wall to me appears that the CIC started a thought for Mr. Gates; to start a conversation of how is America going to pay for a highly trained, technical force and convince them to be as effective with less numbers.

continued 01010

My opinion is when the conflicts end, the reserve and Guard will return home to their mortgages, cars, jobs and families. The active duty, especially the stop loss remainees will be the first to leave and the rest wanting their chance of becoming a high paid CEO, or lawyer will leave to get their education from the new GI Bill. Few if any remainding will be burnt out, left to train the militay of tomorrow and have their uncertainty of future benefits/ medical/ education/ VA benefits waiting for them.
Yes, your right if one gets recognized for their disabilities and make it to retirement, they end up paying themselves, with their retirement. Thus compensating themself with their own money. Have you looked into combat or combat trainingrelted disability pay that is paid in addition to service connected disability which is not substracted from ones retirement pay and paid in addition to retired pay? Sorry for my windedness. Again thank you.

I am leaning to agree.

a valid point, this isn’t Norway. The government has already taught the gangs war tactics. I would have a difficult time giving them ammo and tactical weapontry.

kolledan ref:
“Please do not try to lump us in to a group of uneducated red necks just because you think that is what we are becoming” An interesting note. I am neither brilliant, dumb or “red neck” . Yet I served 22 made it to both E-6 and W-3 before retired. But, 70–73 than 74–92, I served along many redneck type who were smart, educated and volunteers. Of course Airborne was a all volunteer, except the few non-airborne who were chosen.

Good point of view POV , instead of calling it bickering I like to refer to it as a comparison being voiced thru an exercisment a Freedom of Speech, which Our Mitary has earned for every American.

Like your post. Yet the rest of the Nation shoulkd vote during an election a one item subject. Not an amendment, not thr congress or directive from the president a simple popular vote.

YES, 2yrs .……I would add tax free salary during service a partial GI BILL, full benefit after 4 years. Advance individual military occupational training after 2 yrs. add a surgharge on IRS Tax for every year that the ciitizenship is not validated.

Todays youth is without direction, and they refuse to follow, won’t lead and not smart enough to understand when they’re in the way. Todays youth refuses to work because there’s no incentive or encouragement for self drive. Their teachers are fired or school week shorten. They are not allowed to work until age 18, and kept from sports unless they have a C or above. Than they spend all their boring time on either computer games or watching videos. When they turn the video game off and happen to watch TV or flip thru a magazine they see adds that encourage the use of their video talents. America is setting our youth up for failure. Thumbs up Mary W. Thank you for your service. And as my father , 1st USMC-Korea , woul say — Semper Fi

–Military–

Did you serve in the military during or in Vietnam? Where are you getting your information? Life has changed alot over the years. Many technologies today, we did not have back then. When we had to do math, we had to do it by hand, we didn’t have a calculator for example. Young people through out the ages, have always been smart, but there is different degrees to measure this, because of the the advancements made over the years.

I servered in Vietnam as an infantryman. I later returned to the Army, and stayed until I retired from the Army in 2005. Draftees did not have the option of just quiting when they wanted to like they do now. The Army has made many changes to try and keep people in. From my experience with soldiers coming out of AIT, most were lazy, physically unfit, and question everything they were told to do, but not all, but most. Now since my first time in the Army in 1969, is what I was comparing to the soldiers of 2005. It is my understanding that they combine Basic and AIT together. I had 13 weeks of Basic and 13 weeks of Infantry. The best training you really got was, real combat. Just curious, why Uncle Ho? Did you like Ho Chi Min?

Post RMA? What’s that?

If the reference isto the ‘all volunteer force’ — hitech warrior thing. Although the intent may be toward absolutely crushing a symmetric, conventional enemy, in modern times (post RMA?) the situation has hardly arisen. One couldn’t call Grenada or Panama an example of that, even Gulf Wars 1, or 2, Although the Iraqi forces were more ‘subtantial’ in comparison, they were fourth, or at best, third rate. The theatre (slightly larger than California) didn’t present much in the way of topographic or geographic challenge — except in the mountainous north east where the US forces still aren’t in any appreciable numbers. It was, probably, much akin to the German blitzkrieg of Poland or to a lesser extent Norway.

Aside from Israel besting its ‘juggernaut’ neighbours in ’67 and again in ’73, there isn’t much to indicate that the next ‘biggie’ will be a short, sharp, successful campaign, unless the nuclear genie is uncapped.

If that is the case why aren’t ‘the cream’ better represented in media portrayals of those serving in the military? If ithe military to-day is truly representative of a cross section of American society, that element described as ‘trailer trash’ and depicted on the more notorious US ‘ennertainment’ talk shows, seems to be a more significant factor in the modern military. Perhaps they always were, but were less obvious in simpler times.

It would be of interest to find out how many of our posters are military. For the level of reasoning, grammar, usage and spelling here seem a significant cut above the level of posting on many military web sites. Maybe it’s the ‘intense debate’ thing scaring the ‘true grit’ off.

I guess you wouldn’t buy into the waste or overkill aspects of every penny that gets spent, would you? Like how every penny spent, annually, on the defence industry to-day is almost twice the cost of the three years America fought World War 2? Or how about the amount spent annually by the US, on armaments, is more than the total spent by every other nation on earth? That the US Navy could handle the next 70 largest naval fleets single-handed?

Yet all this ‘force or good’ has been stymied for 10 years by a ragtag group of goatherds not numbering more than 6 000 fighters at any given time. Not only that, America is in greater danger to-day, and less able to defend against of ”foreign attack”, than at any other time in her history.

If you think that’s worth every penny, think about what it’s doing to America and why no other nations on earth, that could, are stepping up to the plate.

Those that voluntered due to 9/11 would differ your point of view. I know first hand these Heros from O-6 down to E-1 get very irate when they are told they can’t be deployed to do the job which they have been trained, who will also differ from your point of view. They are not responsible for the shape of todays Army. They concern themself with the mission, tight group pattern and getting the metal on target. The policy makers are responsible, blame them.

Agree!

Enter the service for adventure, travel and patrIOtism. To do the right thing? was better than a cracked skull from a Billy club. Stayed 22 yrs, after ten years of field duty finally allowed to acquire an education beyond high school. Accomplish 3 professions ambulance driver, EMT, Nurse all not recognized by dept of labor. At 10 year mark was chosen to be an Officer, and acquired another profession. During the process ALWAYS trained to Toe the Line, accomplish the Mission, Follow, get out of the Way, or Lead. Thru world wide assignments, Airborne, Artillery and Infantry TO&E Units. We had to learn to set the example and expected as an E4,5,6 to lead by example. Thus benefiting by the experiences from WWII LEADERS, Vietnam season NCO’S and Officers, thru the All Volunteer Era and ROAD. Basically, from Brown boot to a constant showcase and Pony show.

Now when America has the educated volunteer force which is no less energetic and gunho, Few appear to give them credit. Yet, we see and hear of heroic feats by individuals that take charge, accomplish the missioon even at their disregard for their personal safety and well being.

My opinion America needs to wake up,

as it prepares for another 20 Yrs of peace Army/Force to Maintain appearance of readiness and effectiveness they need to concentrate on encourging current Active Force to remain, Train and Lead the soldiers of tomorrow. These should be a combination of volunteers with minimal incentives and a pool of 3 yr draftees who can be rewarded by either a bonus for time served to spend as desired or use for educational expense on completion of their commitment.

I was lucky, a volunteer who wasn’t sent to combat, allowed to exercise self determination and goals that resulted in professions that could be used both in and out of service and in the future for the good of the community and defense needs.

Retired CW3 PA-C

I think that 2yrs of service would be a very good thing for the youth of today. Send them to the armed forces to train for war and also to school for four hours a day . After two years they go to the Reservesfor six years . same as other Countrys now do . I was a draftee in 67 had 4 yrs college. The kids that came out of the cities were ill prepared for war those of us from the rural who hunted were as good as any of any time. By the way to those of you today who in the hell do you think developed the toy’s you use my generation did .We saw the need as we new we needed better Equip. I spent my life after the war making sure my kids would have the most advanced weapons that we were aloud to build . First special forces Sarge Camb. Loas Korea Viet Nam

AGREED

If we teach our kids kids to fish they won’t go hungry. If we teach them to hunt they learn respect for the living, defensive poster and maximum effect. If they learn football they learn how money corrupts. .……On a diffferent point, Everyone physically capable should be in reserve or serving their country for a life time commitment, 20yrs. I did and I still feel young and a better person for it. Less crime and more space in corrections for America’s enemies.

I served in Vietnam and a had friends who were both drafted and enlisted. I also had friends that went to Mexico or Canada ti escape the draft. The military of today are doing more deployments with the same guys and that is not fare. I did 3 tours in Nam, but that was my choice. War is hell and military service should be equal for all men and women who are physically and mentally fit for duty. In Israel it is a two year commitment for all eligable male and females. Not quite volunteer, but they serve with pride and they are very good.

Al larger question is this. Will anyone care if we see a large decline of volunteers in the military based on dropping the “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” policy. I for one would hate to see that our nations policies determined by a west coast judge imposing their values on the the rest of us. Time will tell but I will tell you this. While I am not a phobic, I would not serve in a military that dropped the current policy. This from someone who did serve honorably on the East/West German border. Anyone who sincerely believes that the policy needs to be dropped should acknowledge that it will open a whole can of worms when there is no real reason to change things. If someone doesn’t want to serve because of a policy it is their choice. We seem to have enough volunteers right now. That says something in itself.

Why is it so difficult to see, that people are not gonna fight in a war that don’t beleive in. Are only reason for being in Afganistan and Iraq is for money. Thats the bottom line, to keep Americas interest safe and secure. People fight for what they beleive in and just, A.K.A. the good fight. This is not a good fight and the cause is not just, and this whole subject relects that

Our entire family of five served during the Korean Conflict, the Vietnam War and the Gulf War. We are all out now with a total of 50 years. All volunteers by the way. How can we expect to win a war when all sides are really helping each other and it is a loosing battle in spite of all the back slapping? The Russians finally got smart and left after 10 years. I am sick to death of it. This is an unwinable so called war just taking our good men and women’s lives. The Ameican public is getting sick and tired of it. We love our military but we can’t ask the impossible of them. Time to get out.

There is no doubt we have forced our courageous warriors beyond their personal limit. The worst part comes after they come home. Their PTSD is evaluated but not treated. Their TBI is neither diagnosed nor treated. If TBI is not treated after early detection the damaged part of the brain dies and causes a variety of problems that can be worse than PTSD. Now wonder there are so many suicides, shootingds and domestic violence. If they fail drug tests on base they are given a less-than-honorable discharge and loose all V.A. benefits. If you are an immigrant with a green card you are promised U.S. citizen for your combat service. Much of the paperwork is “LOST”. When these heroes get discharged they are immediately turned over to INS/ICE for deportation!!. Now Gates wonders where we are going to get our new troops from. The milirary, Congress and our government, in general, are a disgrace. They have lied to the troops and when they are used up they throw them in the streets like garbage. We have learned nothing in the past 40 years from the deplorable way we treated our Vietnam heroes.

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