US To Try Israeli Tank Protector

US To Try Israeli Tank Protector

UPDATED: DOTE Live Fire Supervising Tests

Next month a Stryker combat vehicle will arrive in the US equipped for testing the Israeli’s Trophy active protection system. The Army has pursued active protection for years, most recently abandoning the Future Combat System’s active protection system developed by Raytheon. We understand at least one M-ATV will also get the radar– directed system. The M-ATV integration is more challenging, given the vehicle’s design.

The Israelis have already created a Merkava tank brigade with the Trophy system and plan to install it on all of those tanks. The Israeli system was designed and built by Rafael and is being displayed at the Association of the US Army conference here. The Trophy system basically tracks incoming RPGs and missiles with radar antenna mounted flush on the vehicle. Once the system identifies an imminent threat it deploys tiny explosively formed penetrators to destroy it, striking the target in the warhead.


Among the problems with active protection systems generally is fratricide. Because the systems use explosives to destroy incoming RPGs or missiles they can kill dismounted infantry patrolling with the tanks or other armored vehicles. The Rafael business development manager for Trophy, Col. Didi Benyoash, said the Israelis have “done whatever we can to eliminate the problem of fratricide.” Company literature claims that the “average probability of injury to neighboring infantry or neighboring platform crew due to collateral damage caused by Trophy operation is less than 1 percent.”

A promotional video done by the company shows dismounted troops walking a narrow street with armored vehicles. One RPG fired misses a vehicle by a few feet and does not trigger the active protection system. Two more are on target and the system fires. Several soldiers near the armored vehicle fall to the ground, apparently unhurt. But Benyoash also noted that deaths by fratricide from the APS would almost certainly be much lower than the casualties resulting from a successful strike on a vehicle, which would probably kill everyone in the vehicle as well as kill or injure soldiers within 20 or 30 meters  of the blast.

We put in a call to the folks at the Army’s Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey, who we hear will do the tests. UPDATE: It looks as if the live fire folks at OSD’s director of Operational Test and Evaluation are supervising this because of the international nature of the tests.

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Or, to take a page from David Drake, you could make the antipersonnel effect a feature instead of a bug…

Ah no Rick. The Soviets had their first version in operation in the late 1970s (called Drozd). They are up to their second (Arena) or third generation now.

What on Earth are you babbling about? Active Protection Systems are an OLD SOVIET invention, probably even OLDER THAN YOU ! (Which doesn’t really surprise me, since the good old Soviets also invented sloped armour for tanks, in WW II )

Here, the beginning of it all:
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​D​r​o​z​d​_​a​c​t​i​v​e​_​p​r​o​t​ect

Nobody really “invented” sloped armor. It was more of a sort of thing that countries just discovered by attempting to make production easier.

Its a shame for them that the Russians never fielded Arena however.

What a waste: A 1-$-ballerina-mine from World War Two desinfects a whole football field all around the tank, like an air-burst (“shrapnel”) grenade, and unlike the Trophy system each 1-$-reload will instantly cover the same, complete, circular area again and again.

Makes me wonder if ballerina mines aren’t really the best (and cheapest) dual protection a tank could possibly hope for = anti-personnel + simultaneously anti-ordnance! After all, all proximity-fuzed, air-bursting anti-aircraft shells work identically against missiles, cruise missiles and planes, striking their targets’ sides with splinters instead of hitting them nose-to-nose.

Did N.A.T.O. ? A SINGLE , heavily outnumbered Western tank anywhere, until today? One never even heard whispers about it, during the whole Cold War! The inventive Soviets at least successfully fielded Drozd (in Afghanistan) and developed several different products afterwards!

Yeah, right, and “countries just decided to simplify production” after the debut of the T-34…

Is your mind cohesively engaged when you type, or are you in a state of half consciousness where your brain throws together randomized words and phrases?

Here’s a thought: How different would low-intensity light infantry theatres be if Trophy was mountable on a specific HMWVV? Granted, they’d have to stay in pretty close formation, but I think it’s worth looking at.

Throw some anti-IED systems like jammers, and sensors, and a boomerang on that thing, and you have a pretty good force protection variant vehicle.

You’re obviously a foreigner, but your grammar makes me wonder whether you are nationally foreign or terrestrially…

I’m still amazed that a country as small as Israel with only 120 billion dollars of American taxpayer money is the first to get this to work. Necessity is the mother of invention I suppose.

To be exact, we get 3–4 billion annually, about 3% of Israel’s budget.
And you are right, this should stop. Mainly because it harms our independence from you.

As for the reasons why Israel’s defense industry is fast:
A corporate culture which is non-hierarchic and values independence and improvisation.
Young engineers which were all soldiers
Smaller companies
Fast feedback from the IDF

The huge industrial espionage operation Israel runs in the US ought to count for something too.

Nooo, in 1947 the djoows arrived in Palestine and stole the land, and 20 years later they still didn’t have a complete national electric grid or enough water for agriculture, but they already had a complete nuclear program including nuclear bombs. And they developed everything exclusively with LOCAL ideas and resources!

Makes me wonder why they still yell for “U.S. support”.

We arrived to Palestine to steal it a little earlier (starting 1880). Till 1967 we were supported militarily mainly by the French. We didn’t have to steal much nuclear technology because France helped us build the reactors directly.
By 67 we not only had a complete national grid but were exporting agricultural technology to Africa.
One reason the US started massively supporting Israel in 1967 was our nuclear and military capabilities (demonstrated in 67). For the US we were sticks to wave vis a vis the pro-soviet Arab world.

Hey Guy, I was fortunate to train with some Israeli units with the U.S. Navy. Great guys who are very professional and very deadly. I’m so glad Israel & America support each other in so many ways. What these few idiots here in the U.S. don’t realize is Israel is like a police force, or thin blue line to the rest of the free world. If Israel were to fall (which it never will) there would be nobody in that part of the world to stop the muslims from spreading more of their hate filled agendas by force. So please, don’t listen to these clowns who have never been out of their states let alone visited or trained with Israeli people. The vast majority of Americans love Israel and support her. Please accept our support as brothers against a common evil. No country can boast accomplishments like the intelligent, hard working people of Israel can in such a short recent history. I’m so glad we are close friends despite the attempted setbacks of the Obama administration.

What did you get your history from a milk carton? Isreal was land mostly purchased by Holocust surviors from people like Arafat’s own father. UN gave them soverignty 1947.

That explains most of my internet posts, thanks

Been using that kind of equipment (sans boomerang and Trophy) since 2004 in Iraq.

You might want to do a little research. The T34 was a greatly upgraded and redesigned offshoot of the BT7. The BT7 was a simplified copy of the Christie Tank devekoped in the US in the 30s and bought from Christie to become the original BT1. The Sherman was developed and deployed less than 6 months after the T34 and no one in the US had seen or heard of the T34 at the time. The US wa using sloped armor on the M2 Medium Tank in the late 30 on the front hull. That continued into the front hull of the Sherman. Sloped armor was largely a product of poor metllurgy. In the 30s up to about 43 British and German metallurgy was much better than US and Russian. US and Russian armor was less than half as effective at stopping AP rounds than an equivalent German or British armor plate. In 43 the US and Russia finally figured out how to cast thick steel plates that made up the hull and turret as steel instead of high grade cast iron. In late 43 the Germans started running low on trace materials for their armor and the armor on everything but the Tiger series began being less effective.

My comment were towards free fall

This article is a bit of a red herring. For one thing, it leads one to believe that Quick Kill died with the FCS MGV segment, which I do not believe to have been the case. (The link points back to a 2009 article, and there’s lots of water over the dam since that article was written.) Adopting the Israeli system has all sorts of political as well as economic-industrial implications, so one wonders whether there is not some indirection going on. The only other thing I would care to say is that putting an APS in the critical path of an armored vehicle development program is a fundamentally bad idea. If if adds value — great. What other uses can I fund for an onboard radar than to detect incoming chemical energy warheads ? Do I really expect a substantial number of close range threats to my flanks and rear, or am I just manevering the system stupidly in close terrain ? An ICV/IFV is a system, and the dismounts are an integral part of that system.

Good luck hitting a projectile from the side when your the target.

The article presents close in attacks as a worst case scenario not the only purpose for the system. If it can destroy one one second after launch from around a corner, that is pretty impressive. Tactics change with every encounter..

Dismounts are terrific but tend to react after the threat. Rethink your response. Armor crewman deserve every possible protrection that can be provided to them…period!

Although necessity might indeed be the mother of invention, by contrast, a socialist dominated democracy can also sometimes indeed be the death of innovation and inertia. Hence the rising reliance of the US on outsourced technology for such critical developments as defense technology.

Beside fratricide, the other problem APS’ have is civilian casualties in an urban fight. Bad politics for a superpower, not very significant for Israel.

i think its going to be used to run tanks right through enemy lines. An armored spearhead. The Canadians got Leo 2’s in a-stan, from the reports the muj run like hell. Wat kinds of political, or economic-industrial implications are you referring to? Im sorry you know a helluva lot more about this than me.

I feel the same. But when will Israel stop building? Israel is now in a position to just ignore a real peace. Barak gave Arafat the best deal they were gonna get, but that swine Arafat knew if there was “war” he could profit. How many millions did he steal from his own people?? They really blew it, and there will be no Palestinian state. As far as friends in the ME, Jordan may be #2. They fear radical islamists as we do. Pres Obama reached out to moslem countries, don’t discount his commitment to Israel. There will be upheavel soon over there, Iran just ain’t listening. I believe those old psychotic men want a war. Que sera sera…

I think using dismounts around this is unhealthy for them. For an armored spearhead, oh yes, good to have. I think the Israeli’s are innovators, as well as spies. [industrial espionage]

Active defense systems have a ton of potential for future armored vehicles. However making it the core part of a vehicles defensive capabilities isn’t the best option. FCS MGV tried this and we all know how that turned out.

Nonsense — Arena is deployed on T-80s, T-90s and BMP-3Ms, theres just not enough of them to upgrade all vehicles in the inventory and generally only used on the newer models.

I have no information on Arena being tested on the T-90 series, but I know it was tested on the T-80UM1 and BMP-3M, however as far as I know these have not entered series production.

To the poster “esoclectica”

——————————–

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “In late 43 the Germans started running low on trace materials for their armor and the armor on everything but the Tiger series began being less effective.”

In the end, sheer quantity (of Allied tanks) killed quality (of German tanks) : Statistically, it took 6 – 8 U.S. tanks or 3 – 4 Soviet heavy tanks to knock out a single German heavy tank (Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, Hunting Tigers, etc. . Quote from “Wikipedia” : “The Tiger I is claimed to have a ratio of 5,74 kills to each loss, with 9.850 tank kills for a loss of 1.715 Tigers.”
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​T​i​g​e​r​_​I​#​C​o​m​b​a​t​_​e​x​amp… ),

but during the whole Second World War ONLY 1.347 Tiger Is were produced, against for example 36.000 Soviet T-34s and 58.000 U.S. American Shermans, etc. … NOT FAIR !!!

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

Still, contrary to what you say or imply, the Christie, the BT 1 and the BT 7 were almost boxy, not sloped, when compared to the T-34 !

Picture of the Christie (also called T3) : http://​www​.wwiivehicles​.com/​u​s​a​/​t​a​n​k​s​-​m​e​d​i​u​m​/​t​3/t

Picture of the BT 1: http://echoofwars.com/BT%207%20for.jpg

Picture of the BT 7: http://​www​.historyofwar​.org/​P​i​c​t​u​r​e​s​/​B​T​-​7​_​m​o​d​e​l_1

If THAT’s what you call “sloped armour plates”, then even the very first French and German tanks had “a bit of that”, too!

Picture of the Renault FT-17: http://​www​.peachmountain​.com/​N​a​r​a​y​a​n​/​i​m​a​g​e​s​/​2​0​05_

Picture of the Panzerkampfwagen I: http://​www​.wwiivehicles​.com/​g​e​r​m​a​n​y​/​t​a​n​k​s​-​l​i​g​h​t/p

Here, the father of all sloped armour, the T-34: http://​encyc​.org/​p​m​w​i​k​i​/​u​p​l​o​a​d​s​/​M​a​i​n​/​S​o​v​i​e​t​_​T​a​nk_

Good luck? No, good proximity fuze.

To the poster “Dirtyloclown”

You wrote: “Isreal was land mostly purchased by Holocust survivors from people like Arafat’s own father.”

I’m sure you purchased it. I’m sure you still puchase it. It’s just that the Palestinians don’t want to sell their lands to you!

Anyway: The other half of you djoowsish cyber-warriors claims that there wasn’t even a single soul anywhere in Palestine when you set foot there, “every brick in sight today was made by you”, so make up your minds already, you unconvincing Propaganda clowns!

You seem to know a little bit about Israel but nothing about Muslims. The vast majority of muslims are not spreading hate.

IF this test out half as well as advertised, meaning >75% effectiveness rate for both heavy ATGMs such as the Kornet/Metis and RPGs it is simply a must have. I am sure there are ECM measures to make it less effective, but increasing the number of missiles the bad guys have to fire to threaten a Mech platoon is a huge advantage. It greatly increases the forces required for an effective ambush and chances you will spot them before they are ready to be spotted. If we are forcing them to utilize advanced ECM, well that is our game. Ponder the travails of the Syrian air defense system in recent years.
:)

“there would be nobody in that part of the world to stop the muslims from spreading more of their hate filled agendas by force”

Wow I am ashamed to be in the military with someone like you. Have you read anything about Islam? For you to paint such a negative picture on a positive and friendly group of people is a travesty. Using your logic, Christians use violence and slaughter innocent men, women, and children based in the events of the capture of Jerusalem during the first crusade. Obviously, Christians as a majority are good people and maybe you will realize a majority of Muslims are just as civil, caring, compassionate, good, and peaceful.

You do not understand and know the facts better to remain silent
Israel had not received anything
Israel invented this exclusive development of RAFAEL
You send tanks that our product will give your soldiers protection
Not a lot of money in our developments are paid by you but like the time you and only you are the only product in the world safe for your use
Think about it
Another little tip — Size does not matter to pose;)

One thing that is being overlooked is the fact that almost none of the “peace-loving” muslims speak out against the radical muslims spreading hate. You can see the widespread uprising from christians against hate-speak all of the time. Christians as a group denounce radical christians. Not so with the muslim community. It is quite obvious where any threat is coming from.

I ‘m sorry, but in an urban fight you are going to have casualties no matter what kind of protection you have. Get a grip. I was with the IDF in 1971 and they take civilian deaths very seriously both their and the enemies.

The Israelis also have a man-carried laser guided anti-tank weapon which is also impressive.

Should work better than active armor which will surely produce more infantry casualties

I built a model Merkava II over 15 years ago…been very interested in AFV’s, etc. much longer…I just heard the word “Merkava” pronounced correctly for the first time, ever!…Israel would have a whole lot more support, especially here in America, if they would be nicer to the Palestinians, and give THEM a “homeland”, too!…Thanks to the other good posts & commenters here, I have renewed faith that the human race won’t kill itself, but we will sure put a hurtin’ on the bad guys!…whether they’re our enemies, or not…<(semper fi, Gumby!)>…

If we keep going on the course our pollitions have charted for us, w will need all the help we can get from our so-called allies. World war two was a great example. We allied ourselves with England and france and then RUSSIA WOW! In order for us to get an O.K. from RUSSIA to do anything, we had to double cross a lot of countries that had depended on us to free themSOOO! We gave RUSSIA Poland( the reason England entered the war is to honor the treaty they had with Poland. Then Checko– Slavakia Rumainia hungry and yugoslavia.Who the hell said WE WON THE WAR !!!!! Our GOV> WAS LOADED WITH SOCIALISTS and COMMUNISTS at that time. HEnry WAllace was dumped by Franklin Roosevelt because he new he would not live much longer so he picked GOOD OLD HARRY TRUMAN THANK GOD, LOOK what our govnmeant did to McCarthy he new the fix was in as soon as truman wa out of office. The young and the ugly have been brain– washed for two generations our school system has been going down hill ever since he organized them A QUOTE BY ALBERT SHANKER UNION ORGANIZER as he lay dying in his bed. This was not edited out by any of the now trash newspapers at the time. If it were today you would not read a word about it.LIBERATOR

“Almost all of current Israel was purchased from Muslims, a small percentage was added by war.”

You can’t buy sovereignty. And in the same year of “Israel”‘s creation, “over 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of the area that became Israel left their towns and villages”.
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​1​9​4​8​_​P​a​l​e​s​t​i​n​i​a​n​_​exo

Maybe they left their properties voluntarily? You know, like the djoows when they boarded the trains to Poland?

In my day we just used some rolls of cyclone chain link fence to deflect those armor piercig rounds, and it sure cost US allot less, but since depleated uranium shells came out I don’t blame the Jews one bit since Iran now makes their own and all I’ve got is a slig shot made from my galfriends old bra ! Glad she kept it instead of urning it for womas rights in the 60’s as David had to fight the giant of Palestine with his sling shot !

Remeber the Cylon’s i the movie ” Battle Star Galactica when they mothballed that old Battle Star with Richard Olmos as Odama, ad then used their technology to shut all those Vipers down while they blasted the heck out of them. You know my home town was the placed they filmed the original TV series as Capria with Ben Cartwright ( Lorne Gree ), played Odama ad look what they did to it by gettig rid of it’s Navy base durig Clinton ?

Dear freefallingbomb. You forgot to mention that close to one million Jews fled or were expelled from Arab countries since 1947. Most of those Jews found refuge in Israel and their decendents make up close to 50% of Israel’s population. Jews from Arab countries left behind property valued today in the many billions, and real estate about three times the size of Israel today. Perhaps they should ask for all that back? Many Arab countries which had thriving Jewish communities, such as Egypt, Libya, Iraq… etc… have almost ZERO Jews today.

Dear freefallingbomb. You forgot to mention that close to one million Jews fled or were expelled from Arab countries since 1947. Most of those Jews found refuge in Israel and their decendents make up close to 50% of Israel’s population. Jews from Arab countries left behind property valued today in the many billions, and real estate about three times the size of Israel today. Perhaps they should ask for all that back? Many Arab countries which had thriving Jewish communities, such as Egypt, Libya, Iraq… etc… have almost ZERO Jews today.

Read more: http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​0​/​1​0​/​2​5​/​u​s​-​t​o​-​t​r​y​-​i​s​rae

That is the problem Joe; we in the west only get the Arab side of the story, and so it is easy to feel the Israelis are simply unreasonable. Thank you for that post!

Thank you!! We in Israel and the jews all over the world Feel the same way, we gladd to have you as friends too.

You are the torch of freedom since ever, love you!

I don’t see any of them trying to stop any of it either bozo lol. To me , that means they are in the same boat :) .

Apologies to everyone — I meant the Mecca model as the road to destruction! There goes my dyslexia again!

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