Dealing With a Rising China

Dealing With a Rising China

With all the news this week about China’s latest military capabilities we thought we’d offer you an interesting take on China’s rise from Dean Cheng, Research Fellow in Chinese Political and Security Affairs in the Asian Studies Center at The Heritage Foundation:

As Secretary of Defense Robert Gates prepares to go to China and President Obama prepares to host Chinese leader Hu Jintao, it is important that they recognize that the Chinese leadership has an increasingly capable military at its disposal. Worse, the factors shaping that military remain opaque.

The Growing Chinese Military


A number of items concerning the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) were in the news this past week. The most high profile was the comment by Admiral Robert Willard, chief of U.S. Pacific Command, that China’s anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) system had reached initial operational capability (IOC). This means that the Chinese DF-21D, which is believed to have been developed specifically to target U.S. carrier strike groups (CSGs), has now been distributed to at least some PLA units for actual operational use in the event of conflict.

The DF-21D is not a new program; its development has been mentioned in various official and academic publications, including this year’s Department of Defense report on China, released in August. What is striking is that the system has reached IOC much earlier than had been expected. The annual Pentagon report on Chinese military capabilities, for example, gave no indication that the system was going to reach IOC this year.

At almost the same time, Chinese Internet sites revealed pictures of a possible Chinese stealth-type fighter aircraft. The pictures are grainy and may not bear any resemblance to any actual Chinese aircraft in development, although it is apparently referred to as the J-20. The larger point is that such photos reached the Chinese portion of the Internet about the same time as Admiral Willard raised the subject of the DF-21D again.

Meanwhile, there are reports that the Chinese carrier Shi Lang (formerly the Varyag) may be ready for launch in 2011. This, too, would appear to be far in advance of prior estimates of when the ex-Soviet aircraft carrier might be refurbished—and make a mockery of those who had claimed that the Chinese were either not interested in or not capable of developing and operating an aircraft carrier.

All of these news items serve to underscore that China’s military development has proceeded more rapidly than many had expected. Nor is this accelerating pace limited to equipment items. The Chinese military in 2001 were only beginning to incorporate concepts of jointness into their doctrine and were focused on the “juntuan” level of group armies and military region air forces. By 2010, there was much more discussion of jointness at the operational level, including joint operations between ground brigades and air regiments. While this is not quite the same as American joint operations, it is notable, since China is making such changes without the pressure of or experience from two ongoing wars. Indeed, all of these military efforts are occurring without any pressing military threat to China’s borders or interests.

It remains to be seen, though, what the 2010 Chinese defense white paper will reveal about Chinese military policies and emphases. Few Western analysts, however, expect it to be significantly more revealing about Chinese decision making than the previous editions.

At Cross-Purposes?

For all the purported interest in sustaining military-to-military exchanges, there is little indication that Beijing sees them as much more than an opportunity to gain information and press their political and diplomatic agenda. Where the U.S. has tried to use military-to-military meetings to propose operational steps for minimizing the potential for incidents or misunderstanding, China uses these meetings to demand alterations in fundamental U.S. policy.

At meetings held under the Military Maritime Cooperation Arrangement (MMCA), for example, the U.S. has called for adoption of rules of the road and safer behavior between Chinese and U.S. ships, consistent with its interest in freedom of the seas. For the Chinese, on the other hand, the MMCA seems to be an opportunity to reiterate their massive sovereignty claims to seas far beyond their shores. Indeed, the Chinese see “creating a safer maritime environment” almost as justifying the American presence and therefore do not welcome it.

Recommendations

As the U.S. and China engage each other in 2011, Congress and the Administration should:

  • Hedge against Chinese breakout capabilities. In and of itself, China’s military modernization is not necessarily a threat. China is now the world’s second largest economy and has a global footprint. It is only natural that China would create a military capable of defending those interests. How it defines those interests (often, as in the seas off its east coast, in direct conflict with U.S. interests) and how it uses its military power to pursue them are the dangerous complicating factors. The pace of China’s military expansion is much greater than predicted, whether it is ASBMs and anti-access/area denial capabilities or practicing joint operations. Consequently, American planners should not only revise their predictions to accommodate the new realities of the PLA but also recognize the limits of their understanding of current Chinese practices.
  • Maintain U.S. capabilities in the Western Pacific. One of the essential elements of U.S. deterrence is the ability to engage in escalation dominance—that is, no matter what Chinese military capabilities arise, the U.S. will always be able to meet and overmatch them. This is the cornerstone of both U.S. security and its security guarantees to its alliance partners and friends in the region. This can be achieved only through sustained investments not only in current force structure but in R&D as well. Reductions in current American forces, by contrast, can only raise questions about both the credibility and reliability of the American commitment—and increase the risk of miscalculation and conflict.
  • Enhance intelligence and analytical capabilities. The Chinese government in general, but especially the PLA, does not place much faith in transparency. While it has improved some aspects of its public face, fundamental aspects of Chinese security decision making remains unknown. Before expanding its engagement with the Chinese, the U.S. should have a better sense of whom it is dealing with and how their system of military management actually works. This can be achieved only through a sustained commitment to developing familiarity and expertise. Those responsible for developing the next several budgets need to keep this in mind.

Eagles and Dragons in the Year of the Rabbit

There is little question that the U.S. and the People’s Republic of China will be steadily engaged with each other in 2011, continuing a post–Cold War trend. The U.S. should never be afraid to engage the PRC, but neither should it give the Chinese the impression that Washington is dealing with them out of fear. Only a consistent national security policy, including a sustained U.S. presence in the region, can do that.

Join the Conversation

Finally a good article. (I still have to assimilate the information subconsciously before I know if I want to comment anything, but here’s my compliment anyway)

The US faces the same problem that the USSR had. How do you compete head on with an economy that is 3 times larger. US defense contractors say the answer is to bankrupt our economy. The military is in denial pretending that they will be superior even though they will be only 1/3 the size — or very probably much less given the defense industries priorities.

This is an issue not for America itself because a nuclear war between the two countries will not happen despite the delusions of some armchair strategists. But our non-nuclearized allies are starting to feel they are being screwed

The JSF is a prime example — promised to be good enough stealth, because it was a class above anything the Chinese could conceivably produce by 2020 now looks very ordinary at an extraordinary price. For Americas allies equipment that is the best that can be produced while ensuring contractor monopoly profits just looks like fraud.

Meanwhile China is currently going through south east Asia signing up countries to extend their high speed network down to Singapore. They provide the cash for the project and the dominoes are falling like confetti. Tying the whole region to China economically.

Finally a article about China that makes since Im not surprised China got a old Soviet Carrier to work or I can have anti-fleet missles. I think the Stealth Fighter is fictional and I doubt they have once accually. But the solutions to a China who military is so large to emcompaeses everything from 50s era MiGs to Modern Aircraft carriers is true and smart enough chicken little doom on China, we can take them if we have to. Just hope we have no wars to fight China or Russia on.

I see a global conflict coming down the pike, I can’t be the only one. We’ve just had the economic event, like the depression in the 30’s, now the material event is on the horizon and preparation is needed. Luckily things take awhile, by the time it happens it won’t really be a surprise.

Unless the jet has a critical flaw as yet unrevealed, we should keep the F22 fighter line open. It is also time for deficit spending on the military like no tomorrow, the money won’t be worth anything if the hegemony falls anyway.

Additionally, deficit spending on the military is a sure way out of any recession, evidence exists from wwII back to the roman empire.

Its time for the United States to dump it’s spineless leadership.

Ignoring your incredibly foolish one-dimensional view of defense contractors, they understand a strong economy is key to having successful businesses. Your view regarding virtually everything here Oblat has been to cut and slice our armed forces.

It’s so easy to demonize the big bad corporations, but get used to reality and understand it is a necessary evil.

With the cancelled production of the F-22, and giga-dollars thrown into useless weapons systems like the F-35 and LCS, best to teach your kids and grand kids how to speak Chinese.

“Indeed, all of these military efforts are occurring without any pressing military threat to China’s borders or interests.”

What about three aircraft carrier groups nearing 300 miles of your shoreline (as of right now)?

What I love about these kimd of analysis is how they ignore the economic component of the problem — you can’t win against your banker.

Those that think that a conflict will hurt us equally,(or we can rely on the rest of the world to fund our debt indefinitely)have not been looking at how the Chinese have been diversifying their trading partners to minimize blow back in event of a crisis.

Better to take your austerity lumps now, while the threat is still developing, than have to take them when we are facing a potential crisis.

Publish more of the Heritage foundation analysis. They at least have a real world view of America’s enemies.

Thus is in contrast to the Obama admin suck ups such ad oblat and byron skinner (appropriately initialed BS).

China today is Japan of the 30s. The ultimate purpose of he pla and the plan is sustainment and defending the communist party. Unfortunately america is currently held hostage by the Obama regime who are thei fellow travelers and look to disarm the USA while our enemies Advance.

“Where the U.S. has tried to use military-to-military meetings to propose operational steps for minimizing the potential for incidents or misunderstanding, China uses these meetings to demand alterations in fundamental U.S. policy.”

Nationalism and diplomacy are always trying to get what is best for your country. China developing its navy and extending its reach out into the western Pacific is to be expected. To them, the continuing presence of the U.S. Navy is the threat. What are we protecting? The rich Taiwanese, Japanese and South Koreans? Let them defend themselves. We’ll even give them a couple of fully equipped carrier battle groups as bring our military in line with our budget.

The argument that we are defending the sea lanes of commerce doesn’t hold water anymore. None of the commercial ships are American owned or flagged. I see a lot of Chinese containerships in American ports. Why wouldn’t we expect to see some Chinese navy combatants escorting them on occasion? And in different parts of the world. That’s the new reality we have to work with and adapt to.

To the poster “Oblat”

Part 1 / 4

You wrote: “…a nuclear war between the two countries will not happen…”

This article is an excellent “never-say-never” reminder for U.S. chauvinists: Who doesn’t remember a haughty, smart-aleck Byron dismissing China’s first stealth fighter and its attempts to put the “Varyag” afloat, only a short time ago? Well, he doesn’t crow now. That’s why I’m surprised that now you too believe in taboos (quote: “…a nuclear war between the two countries will not happen…”). Coincidentally, your claim also describes the biggest logical mistake found in the article itself: It pits only the whole CONVENTIONAL arsenal of the U.S.A. against China’s (with topics and phrases like the “J-20 jet”, “group armies and military region air forces”, “a military capable of defending those interests”, “ ASBMs and anti-access/area denial capabilities or practicing joint operations”, “Chinese security decision making”, etc.).

(Continued)

Part 2 / 4

That’s wishful thinking. In a war, after these two countries lose even only 10 % (!!!) of their conventional forces (do the maths of what that represents in terms of men and matériel!), then there will be an inescapable spread from conventional to nuclear warfare. What am I babbling: Once a Chinese I.C.B.M. or Song-class submarine sinks THE VERY FIRST U.S. aircraft carrier and its crew of 7.000 with a single hit, I can’t imagine the U.S. Armed Forces still “behaving conventionally” onwards!

Back in the Cold War, even shooting down early warning satellites was considered sufficient cause to start Armageddon!

But from the first tactical nuke on, the remaining 90 % of BOTH Super-Powers’ men and (conventional) machines will suddenly become as useless as garbage, wherever they are, fighting on the battlefield or resting at home. In simple words: When the (conventional) shooting between China and the U.S.A. starts, we’re all gonna die.

(Continued)

Part 3 / 4

Noo, this is not catastrophism:

1) The U.S.A. (Ike, not Truman) already threatened to NUKE China once in despair, during the Korean War (1950 – 1953), PRECISELY because of its OVERWHELMING CONVENTIONAL power (back then… imagine now),

and

2) that “mystery missile” in front of Los Angeles, on the 8.11.2010, was NOT some U.S. American screw-up à la Iran Air Flight 655, but most probably Chinese… My conspiracy theory: Although that missile launch was probably a Chinese Propaganda stunt for internal consumption only, it wasn’t necessarily a provocation. That would have been too dangerous. I rather believe that it was previously secretly discussed with and authorized by the U.S.A., hence the U.S.’ apathetic, even scandalously hypocritical ( = complicit) reaction towards it.

(Continued)

Part 4 / 4

I just hope that God’s entire Creation won’t disappear one hour over such trivia as “Taiwan” ( = China’s fault) or “U.S. loan defaults” / “massive dumping of $ on the market”, etc. ( = the U.S.A.‘s fault).

Unfortunately, though, this article doesn’t compare the U.S.A.‘s and China’s present and future NUCLEAR capabilities ( = REAL Super-Power language!), doctrines and possible conflict scenarios, just conventional weapons and strategies = TOYS in the eyes of nuclear Super-Powers, and sand in our eyes.

To the taxpaying poster

You wrote: “We’ll even give them a couple of fully equipped carrier battle groups as bring our military in line with our budget.”

Yes and no.

Not only

1) would “a bit” of cash come in handily now,

as well as

2) the yearly maintenance cost of all these excessive carrier battle groups would suddenly vanish, too (as you said),

but above all

3) you would get free cannon-fodder against China.

Or wouldn’t you…?

Think: Taiwan, Korea and even Japan are incomparably smaller than China, and smaller nations resist LESS against big (and biggest) nations than big ones (like the U.S.A.) do. In the end, it may all have been in vain… and you may have to jump into the fight nevertheless, but without any more allies left (anything more left to defend, or to put your foot on) in Far East Asia.

PRC is a rising power too large (and too implicated?) for any single country to challenge head-on.

Two options: mind our own business (inadvisable in this time of age) or team up with “the rest of the world” to counter PRC’s growing sphere or influence. Let it rise when it rises; let it fall when it falls.

The point is that the PRC is a communist dictatorship — until that is changed they should be treated as such.

Japan and S Korea should go nuclear as a defense — then the panda lovers can suggest China treat them with respect as they always argue Democracies should treat the chicomms…

The growing strength of china’s military power does not call for fear;rather i think is a step to protect their growing economy.

Good Morning Folks,

Hi ffg, I love you too. The Varyag the last I saw is where it’s been the last ten years. Maybe you know something the world doesn’t. On the ASBM I might thing reading the AP story would be more beneficial to understanding this weapon. I do love how you can take isolated incident as build generalization off them.

I really didn’t expect the year to start with agreeing with Heritage Foundation but most of what Dean Cheng. China is not the economic power house that she is being made up to be. China is creating its wealth of its cheap labor that can produce simple good at rock bottom prices. To any of you that may have read Adam Smith you will remember he warned against countries exploiting cheap labor to generate wealth. The strongest economy is the one with skilled labor, capital ready to exploit technological breakthrough’s and when the technology matures move on to new technology.

China is living off outside investment for its expansion, this money as it is doing now will move to areas where the return on investment is highest and right now it is derivatives and Hedge Funds which the US Government say are to big to fail.

To the poster “joneys”

Part 1 / 4

You wrote: “Japan and S Korea should go nuclear as a defense”

Why wake up potentially the biggest dog in the World, China, which is still slumbering peacefully? Is there ANY intelligence left in this?

Look how relaxed China presently feels and behaves: Right now China BORDERS DIRECTLY on

(Continued)

Part 2 / 4

1) the nuclear Super-Power Russia (which it doesn’t DARE to defame, threaten and challenge the way if does the U.S.A. . Curious, n’est-ce pas?),
on
2) the small nuclear power India,
on
3) the small nuclear power Pakistan,
on
4) an unstable nuclear dwarf, the Weird Land of Kim
and in the near future also on
5) a second, even smaller unstable nuclear dwarf, Burma (“Myanmar”),

AND YET China is seemingly satisfied with only ~ 200 big, old warheads! 200 big warheads are NOTHING in terms of defense expenditures! Even s h i t t y little countries like “Israel” have ~ 200 nukes! As another poster here said: Since 200 big nukes MORE THAN suffice for any “contingency”, such a SELF-IMPOSED , small number of big nukes is even a sign of stability, of immense maturity, of wisdom!

Can you EVEN IMAGINE the militaristic hue and cry which the U.S.A. would make if they had so many (and all THESE …) nuclear powers as DIRECT neighbours, like China has? Can you?

(Continued)

Part 3 / 4

Meanwhile, the other two nuclear Super-Power are reducing their (big) warheads from ~ 2.000 to 1.550 instead. (1.500 big nukes = true nuclear hooliganism!)

How sleepless does this present missile gap between the U.S.A. and China leave you?

So, if China (which was never invited to some sort of S.A.L.T. treaty) suddenly spots two or three NEW , but clearly U.S.-controlled, nuclear powers on its border ( = launch pads, like Cuba in 1962), it could really wake up from its profound slumber and EASILY increase its own number of BIG , far-flying nukes TEN-fold in not time at all, ABOVE U.S. levels, just to remind everybody who’s who. Doubts?

(Continued)

Part 4 / 4

Do the U.S.A. really want to start a new NUCLEAR arms race, and this time against their biggest creditor, China?
And does it have to be right away?!

If that’s the stated goal, then go ahead: Sell Taiwan, Japan and South Korea a few hundred Pershings and cruise missiles each.

But remember: It’s easier to climb up trees then down again. Meaning: It took you only 3 years (1942 – 1945) to build the first atomic bomb, but ~ 70 years to cool down the (first!) nuclear arms race which it directly caused, some nice, acute nuclear crisis included. (But if you really can’t resist living immersed in adrenaline, if “war has become part of your culture”, as Byron suspects…)

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010–01.html

“the F-35 will no longer be a usable combat aircraft for roles other than Counter Insurgency (COIN), though more cost effective and more appropriate solutions already exist for this role.”
“the only viable … strategy […] is to terminate the Joint Strike Fighter program immediately, redirect freed funding to further develop the F-22 Raptor, and employ variants of the F-22 aircraft as the primary fighter aircraft for all United States and Allied TACAIR needs.
If the US does not fundamentally change its planning […], the advantage held for decades will be soon lost… ”

To the poster Mr. Byron Skinner

You wrote: “The Varyag the last I saw is where it’s been the last ten years. Maybe you know something the world doesn’t. On the ASBM I might thing reading the AP story would be more beneficial to understanding this weapon. I do love how you can take isolated incident as build generalization off them.”

I’m still celebrating New Year right now, so this time I won’t quote all your recent boasts about China’s imminent military collapse. Yes, you’re safe to breathe a sigh of relief.

Happy New Year to you, too!

Other then the large new phased array radar, the installation of antiaircraft missile batteries, the completed retrofitted main deck, and the obvious testing of the installed power plant, why nothing has changed for the Varyag!

That’s quite an interesting alternate reality your living in Byron, please invite me over sometime.…

http://​china​-defense​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​1​0​/​1​2​/​w​h​e​n​-th…

Let’s look at history. The U.S. went through all the same stages as a rising China. We had natural and cheap labor sources, and have exploited it all. To what end? Ipods! OMG! So now we seem to fear the next rising power the same was the Brits feared first France and then Germany? That led to two world wars. But I believe, given their long term historical perspective the Chinese are in a defensive mode, not offensive. We, the U.S., are in the offensive mode. And why? Because we can’t pay our bills to a China that is having its 15 minutes of fame? The U.S. needs to recognize that the American empire was very short lived (1945 to 2010), and we need to adjust our national expectations and international relationships.

After all, Japan attacked us and now we buy Japanese cars until the put all our auto employees out of work. We lost 58,000 guys in Vietnam and now we buy cheap clothing and sneakers from them. So, what do we have to fear from a country that has never attacked us? The China communists are adapting to capitalism by studying Europe and America, and learning from our failures. Theirs will be a different form, with a social consciense that we don’t have. So, why all the fear and warmongering? What we do in the future to upset world peace and order (like attacking a countries because we fear they might attack us — Iraq, for example) will far overshadow all the good we did in the past (like save Europe and Russia in 2 WW’s).

You sound less a taxpayer than a info-warfare plant or a brainwashed foreign national.

Well to compare, the US has 450 ICBM’s (Only 50 of them have two MIRV’s, thanks Obama) while the PRC has anywhere from 100–400 ICBM’s. (I forgot the source but I think it’s believed to be around 240)

The US also has 12 (Plus 2 in overhaul) Ohio-class SSBN’s, each with 24 Trident-II missiles, each containing 4 MIRV’s. Total of 1,152 warheads.

Not much else is known about the PRC’s Nuke capabilities.

APA is such a objective source.Please tell me what access APA has to J-20 performance and stealth specifications and those of the F-35.…,maybe the the engineers at Lockheed Martin actually know what they’re doing

And we should listen to you?Why ? Where is your credibility??

Good Evening Folks,

To proceed from where I was cut off last time.

The US capabilities in the Western Pacific. Since the US is the importing side of the equation it is up to them to see that goods put on a ship reach the importing country. China being the exporter really could care less once the goods are loaded and a bill of lading is created. If the ship sinks it is the importer that bares the burden, that is why there is insurance.

The final item “To enhance intelligence and analytical capabilities.” This is the hard one. China unlike the United States in military affairs is not governed by laws. In the US Congress writes the and passes the law, the President executes the laws, very simple very transparent.

In China we have rather confused Chain of Command. The PLA is supreme, the PLAAF and Plan are subordinate organization to the PLA and have no representation in the Politburo.

The Politburo reports to two three member CMC’s one for the secular government witch has not power, and the other CMC that reports to the CCP, the peoples congress, and the General Secretary of the CCP, who has the ultimate say of what policy is.

So far so good, but two formations report to the party CMC directly the 2nd. Artillery Corp and the PAP. Currently the CMC’s have identical membership with General Secretary HU serving on both. See the problem?

In the article Mr. Cheng talks about the DF-21D and the PLA, forget about the DF-21’s are ballistic missiles which are controlled by the 2nd. Artillery Corp. The PLA has nothing to do with them. I doubt that the 2nd. Artillery trains to sink Carriers with imaginary missiles. FYI there are six mobile launcher for the DF-21 in the country and about 20 DF-21 missiles have been built. The launches are currently in the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Zone.

This of course leads to a rather interesting issue and that is SLBMN. Ballistic Missile Submarine to be effective must have nuclear weapons on board, duh!

In China all nuclear weapons are controlled by the General Secretary through the 2nd. Artillery Corps. Under this set up it is totally inconceivable that China could ever trust a submarine or carrier captain with nuclear weapons. The worry of course is that a BOOMER or CBG could decide to unload its missiles on China. Captains of ship at sea have been known for changing sides.

For China to be a world power they have to put weapons to sea like carriers and nuclear armed BOOMERS and I just don’t see this happening. China saw very well how fast the Soviet Union went down and are very much aware of the fragility of the CCP, revolution is only a bullet away. The events of 1917 are crystal clear.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

If the PRC is politically opaque, why are you then qualified to explain it to us? I have no doubt that there is no political barrier to the PLA / 2nd AC launching the ballistic missile if the highest authorities will it to be so.

Also, why would a country build a ballistic missile with a flechette payload if they weren’t going to use it on the intended target? What, then, is the target?

I found an article about Taiwan mass producing land to sea cruise missiles.
http://​www​.google​.com/​h​o​s​t​e​d​n​e​w​s​/​a​f​p​/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​A​Leq…

I believe we will see some very innovative weapon systems employed by both sides, the DF-21 is probably the beginning.

China has exhibitted nothing but aggressive behavior towards the USA, it hacked into major defense programs, rammed one of our airplanes and forced it to land on a chinese island where it proceeded to strip the aircraft of sensitive equipment while holding it’s crew hostage. China has messed with our space assets and has displayed the ability to shoot down satellites . all of these actions are not the actions of a peaceful nation.
Then you have MR. Gates(Sec. of defense) who says that theUSA should not strive to be the best but only to be equal to potental enemies, then has a personal vendetta against the AIRFORCE and sets off to reduce the Airforce to a PROP driven anti –insurgent Airforce.
The Dem.s need to grow a set, and put Americans to work building weapons to make sure our troops have what they need to defeat any potential enemy (China)

I think we can see where this is all heading — both the independent QDR team and CBSA’s much-overstated “air sea battle” concept pretty much sing off the same page. But what is operationally important here is how Chinese naval expansion and increased power projection impact Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, to say nothing of Taiwan. The Chinese understand that increased military clout is about establishing dominance over their neighbors, but that does not make those neighbors just roll over. Contra Mearsheimer, this is great example of balancing on the sea rather than over the sea — which is the big drawback to his theory. The potential impact of nuclear weapons on naval forces was mooted back in the 50s, and some of that analysis might be profitably revisited. One way the administration can help this equation sort-term is to keep the F-35 viable and keep the Japanese in the program. One strongly symbolic measure would be to have the JDF fly aircraft on and off our ships during exercises. That also sends the world a message that the USA is not turning inward, that we will stand with our allies and aren’t just about “going it alone”.

Any country is a potential threat and should be regarded as such, our history is full of battles with even our allies at one point or another. The biggest kick I get out of all of this is listening to some that claim we need to build up for this potential threat — thing is they were the same ones claiming we dont need large carrier battle groups or amphibious forces not long ago. If or when we ever get into a scuffle with China, the only way we will get troops and gear on the ground will be by amphib landings and air drops considering I seriously doubt Russia or any of chinas neighbors will allow us to build foward bases in the region and we sure as heck aint gonna drive there from Thailand. SO now I’m curious as to how our brass will decide how they are going to deter this possibility whit all their cuts and a fleet of ill equipped LCS ships? maybe shades of WWII where we slapped deck guns on merchant ships to make up the difference????????????

The issue with nukes against ships has gone further than the test performed in the 50’s, it is now know that unlike the surface blast test conducted back then that a sub surface blast will evaporate and steam large areas of ocean around the impact zone leaving a void ofr ships to break aprt in with no water to support thier weight while tearing apart subs under water. The blast is not the issue but more over the enviroment. This is why we took nuclear SUBROC and ASROC and ASTOR torpedos off line because the is no way to launch one without killing yourself due to thier limmited range. So yeah I would worry about any type of nuclear blast in the general area of a battle group because it would take out more than just the carrier. But I pretty much agree with the remainder of your post, either be fully joint or leave the area all together and let them fend for themselves.

Good Afternoon Folks,

Here you guys go for those of you dreaming of Chinese CVN’s. This from “The US Congressional Research Service”.

The Varyag is due to come out in two years (2013), the Varyag will serve as a training carrier for PLAN air wings. Of course the report didn’t say where the aircraft would come from for these air wings. Details. Details!

But the really big, big news, is that at the Jiangnan Ship Yard on Changxing Dao Island, the Chinese are secretly constructing not one, but TWO nuclear powered carriers that will be launched July 1 2017.

In other new today, according to Christian Radio the world will come to an end on May 21, 2011.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Actually, I handled all kinds of Pentagon money for various major weapons systems and support over my former career. I’ve seen good and bad, and there seems to be more bad these days. It took a war to get our warfighters decent combat gear and force protection. The generals and admiral wanted their expensive toys, which still haven’t proven their use. How many B-2’s did we use in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many submarines and torpedoes does it take to kill an insurgent? How many tanks to barricade a city? What I’m saying is that the threat or lack thereof is just not black and white. It’s all shades of gray, and we really need to distinguish our friends from our enemies a lot better than saying that if they don’t look like us we should get ready to go to war with them.

Bill, and you think we haven’t hacked into their systems? Or monitored or can interrupt their satellites? Hell, we overflew China hundreds of times with the SR-71 photographing their military sites. And I’ll bet our submarines are up close and personal along their coastlines every day. All players push the limits to test out their potential opponents. We are no different.

@taxpayer:

‘We are no different’. That says it all. Moral relativisim and a complete failure to see any differnce btwn the greatest force for good in the world and a communist dictatorship. Pathetic does not even come close to your belief system.

As the only identified foreigner on this board I’m also the only certified expert on the highly exotic matter of being a foreigner, and I can assure you that (today, after the fall of Communism) there is NO such thing as a “brain-washed foreigner” ANYWHERE in the World. YOU U.S. Americans are the only gullible, clueless, brain-washed people left (to the clear delight of a certain toxic racial minority).

Just compare Bush’s, Obama’s or even your recent Social Security’s popularity (and survivability!)
1) in the U.S.A.
and then
2) in the rest of the ENTIRE WORLD ,
and WEEP ! It’s tragic, it’s absolutely catastrophic what happened to your people’s mental defenses over the centuries – but I bet that you don’t even understand what I mean. Like listening to static…

(Continued)

That “Taxpayer” himself possesses such a superior historical long-term perspective (a kind of holism), such an intellectual incorruptibility, such a level of humanistic conscience, such a vertical, yet unpretentious, modest stance, that he cannot possibly be “just another Yankee” (like Y-O-U !). It’s simply genetically impossible. He MUST be a foreigner, too, impersonating an U.S. American, for gaudy’s sake (“Oblat”‘s idea of fun, too?).

And I increasingly bow to “Taxpayer”‘s transcendental wisdom, I secretly admit that! A bit more frequent posting and he would be perfect, a real gem.

To, no: About the poster “BOOMER”

He wrote: “If or when we ever get into a scuffle with China, the only way we will get troops and gear on the ground will be by amphib landings and air drops…”

There really is an U.S. American who wants to invade, occupy and defend the Manchurian swamps “55 Days at Peking”-like (but in 2010, not in 1900 – not even in the Korean War) !

Friends, family, colleagues, now I’ve seen it all…!!! Good night.

I’d still like to know what the intended target of the ACBM system is, if not carriers. You drifted off the point.

real funny — I never said anything like that — just pointed out the obvious that because you never know where your next battle will be, you have to be prepared for anything thus you cannot reshape the military to only be able to fight the same types of wars we are currently in as some have claimed we need to do, same ones who see china and korea as a threat but fail to realize we would need naval air and amphibs to confront either unless we just nuke them which is less likely to happen than a war.

You said: “…you have to be prepared for anything…”

For ANYTHING ??

Even for (quote) “amphib landings and air drops” ?

Even when the target is China???

Are there NO limits for the U.S. Armed Forces’ capabilities, ergo for its missions, ergo for its equipment and training? Why don’t you drive through Vietnam then, on your way to China?

Because it cant be done considering we are not allies or have a base in Nam. Pretty much every country in NATO has done away with or reduced thier Navy and Amphib capability to almost non existance and depends on the US for this among all the other things. No one here is looking for a fight, as for myself I’m all for the US bringing all its forces and funding back to the US and let the rest of you fend for yourself for the first time in many decades as do many more Americans considering all the bad mouthing you give us.

So, the moral of the story is that if your enemy is nuclear armed and could literally blow you out of the water, standing off at range is not a good plan — you have to close on your enemy to get safe from the nuclear threat, and then you are more exposed to his precision (e.g. cruise missile) threat. Sorta takes the windy of the sails of Andy Krepinevich’s argument, doesn’t it — or IS it in fact CBSA’s argument ???
I realize that the Chinese antiship ballistic missile is as likely to be armed conventionally as with nuclear weapons, so there is no way to be sure, and the only way to deal with this is an effective seaborne antimissile defense. Thanks for helping us get to this conclusion.

Very well stated.

Krepinevich spins a scenario whereby these are used to deny access to land-based airfields (e.g. on Guam). I don’t wish to comment further on the subject.

Oh dear, my pun failed in the typing. I meant ‘take the wind out of (his) sails”.…

No problem — and you are correct in the need to be close in with exceptional defenses to beat this type of threat. Preferably mass carpet bombing from high alts for a couple of days would help before our fleets closed in but that would require long range heavy bombers which we no longer have on carriers and only a few B52’s left. The NAVy never should had retired the A6 Intruder till they had an operational 1 for 1 replacement.

Thank you.

Just say “The war is over!” with me, pull back to your borders and stay firmly there – like truly civilized people do – and

1) “the bad-mouthing” will end miraculously,

2) the military defeats will end miraculously,

3) you might even make some unexpected, new friendships,

and

4) no toothy, cheeky, slant-eyed, “BANZAI !!!”-screaming Commie will bayonet you in your sleep either, whether you trust me or not.

You wouldn’t even need most of your Armed Forces anymore (“aircraft carriers”, replacements for B-52s, tanks, etc.).
But me thinks your country could desperately need all that WASTED money for other things. For example for the common people. ( IF they are of any relevance for you, which I doubt)

The U.S.A. are a “force for good” now?

Since you apparently never met any foreigner except maybe through rifle scopes, you should really read once a single Gallup poll in your life about the U.S.A.‘s standing in

ALL

the World’s opinion! Shall I show the way to “Google” ?

Yes, because French people are not chauvinists at all either.

you said : Even s h i t t y little countries like “Israel” have ~ 200 nuke!

Can you please show your sorce ??

Source — sorry

Good Morning Folks,

“The Daily Teaspoon”

Three spoon fulls.

Hi ffb. I’m not sure what your statement about being the only known foreigner posting is conveyed to infer. Although your opinions sometimes don’t quite make sense from the American perspective I’m sure they are welcomed by more posters then just myself.

On this topic I wish you would comment more on French defense issues to us. In particular I’m thinking of MUSIS/HiROS satellite issues between France and Germany/US. Also how is the idea if a French/British Bgde. Combat Team going over in France. Across the channel they appear to be kind of cold to the idea.

As about Americans and foreigners I will disagree with you on the relationships Americans have with people from other countries and cultures. Living in a military area and growing up in the 1940-‘s and 1950’s it was not uncommon for a neighbor to be one of Europe’s DP’s or to have escaped the Nazis before the war and ended up in the US.We all were friends as well as neighbors.

It was the Catalano family that lived next door that introduced me to Pizza, and a Hungarian family that tried to teach me to love Soccer (Football to you) so I’m quite confused by the implications of your statements of late on this topic.

On the issue of foreign cultures, head scarfs are common around here with an Islamic community in the county of about 70,000, nobody make any fuss over them. From what we read over here the Franc seems to have found common ground with Germany on opposing this religious practice. What’s the problem?

I by no means an saying that I represent the feelings of my fellow Americans such a statement would be outrageously stupid at best, but you often profess to present the opinion of the French people as a whole as well as that of the EU.

I have mention before that I’m not a fan of how the US rebuilt Europe after WW II, we made what is in historical retrospect major errors, that said I ‘m the opinion, and using the aftermath of the first World War as the example, we did a much better job for the the Europeans and English then they did after 1919.

The US is like it or not, an speaking for myself I wish this was not true, is the Worlds Super Power and the only country that is able to intervene into a crisis with enough power to do more then make a statement. It is not a position that we chose but one that history has bestowed on us.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Good post Byron.

Either ways we move there is no way that the US or EU will be in any way be able to keep up with China, we decided to offshore basically everything to them and we will pay the direct result of this whic is becoming a colony. in europe the Huawei and other chinese companies are bribing and clinbing thei ways in all sorts of communication hardware contracts, mostly with ripped off cisco software, what do wyou think this will lead to ? learn mandarin boys and girls…

We need not fret over China as a military power, since they cannot exist without us, or Europe for that matter, in our mutual dependence. The extremes of war and/or economic overtaking of the world is not possible with today’s modern technology. I see perhaps a greater sphere of influence by China on us in concerns about how we live our lives and make our economic decisions. As partners and major investors into what we do it would not surprise me to see many American businesses like scared puppy dogs play the puppet under their thumb. So much so that like when Bill Gates talks or like that old Merrill Lynch ad , when China speaks, everyone listens. Why? Because they’re the new big economic power on the block.

In this same view it’s why we must take heed and watch what happens as capitalism’s continues its full court press with cheap labor, and where we can find some harmony for growth. It’s why we also have an illegal alien problem, everyone wants to run their businesses with cheap labor. Right now Americans make too much money as we parry our high cost/standard of living to compete with the likes of China and most of Asia. Departures in our way of life could bring us closer in scope with China’s labor costs, but obviously at a dear price. Because of their type of government, I doubt China’s labor costs will match ours anytime soon. Unlike Japan their system is not expected to even up the labor score no matter what trade agreements we strike down the road.

I suspect if we continue to listen to the Repubs in their antiquated wave the American flag view, propping us up all the time as great, we will indeed fail. Jus tike in that Danny Devito movie, “Other People’s Money”, unless you see the winds of change in front you, you may end up being the last one left behind with your buggy whip up your ass.

So what are our options?

Fail and be done with it by cutting job creating government spending with a return of the Bush era no regulations tactic, hence spinning us into a depression. This way everyone can be a source cheap labor.

Go to war with China only to find out that our operating costs and technology would fall apart since we depend so much them, chancing a total loss or worse an end of the world with a nuclear destruction.

Or possibly our only chance…Start socializing various key vital businesses in this country like our energy resources, healthcare, raw materials, etc, in order to drop our huge operating costs. Do this for only the most important vital businesses, but certainly not all. As a hybrid social capitalist country we would

…stand a much greater chance to compete against the odds facing us with China and their ilk now and yet to come..

Note: This really sucks cutting up comments like this…Looks awful!

the problem with stolen information is the thief doesn’t have the knowledge, respect or experience to use that information or put it to use. Many catastrophe’s have happened when someone doesn’t fully understand something but tries to put it to use anyways. Just because they have the information doesn’t mean that they can put it to use or know why one component is being used and not another. I’m more worried about china’s economy then there military strength.

He has none. Anybody who’s seen his ravings over the past five years re: the F-35 can see that.

Hey ELP, you figure out how to fly them “Super” Hornets off amphibious assault ships yet? Didn’t think so. BTW, if the F-35 is “useless” what’s that make your beloved Super Hornet? I pity the “Super” Hornet pilot who has to tangle with a J-20 or PAK-FA.

China has very strong sense of self-defence since it was been invaded and been intervened by other countries so many times from the 1884~1949.The Chinese culture is that they won’t offence others meanwhile other should not offence them as well.Obiviously,China will continue to develop and enchance her military power until it’s could be strong enough to protect their interest.But there’are some culture conflict between US and Sino,bcoz US pursuing more ambitious strategy.That ‘s the core factor to explain why China’s leaders keen in military modernization,just becoz they are have dread of being overturned by western countries.

In addition to the more militarily-centered options, I will offer the following:
1. Re-organize our tax base and trade agreements to make it more profitible to manufacture goods in the United States — thereby adding much-needed jobs, new tax revenues, and restoring the manufacturing base. Should China (or other nations) try to flood and/or corner the market with super-cheap/subsidized goods, slap a tariff on them to level the playing field.
2. Discourage the exportation of dual-use technologies and hard-earned manufacturing techniques to China in return for short-term profit.
3. A holistic view from a strategic perspective needs to be taken w/r/t trade, our manufacturing base, intellectual capital, and long-term defense requirements. The short-term stuff is killing us and is funding the Chinese build-up of offensive weapons.
4. Learn from the experience of the Russians: The Chinese stole technologies and pulled every dirty trick imaginable (repeatedly made and broke agreements, etc.) on the Russians. What ever made anyone think they would behave differently to the USA?
5. BUY MADE IN AMERICA PRODUCTS whenever possible. After American, then Canadia, European, etc. (Chinese as a last resort).

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