Fly F-22s Over Libya, Advocates Say

Fly F-22s Over Libya, Advocates Say

It is becoming a drumbeat of supporters of the F-22 and the F-35: We built them. Let’s use them when conditions are right.

When Iran appeared to be on track for developing a nuclear weapon, F-22 advocates wondered why they weren’t deployed to the Mideast. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was accused of holding them back so he wouldn’t give the F-22 ammunition to prove its worth soon after he capped the buy at 187.

Now advocates are arguing that the world’s most capable tactical aircraft should be used to enforce a no-fly zone in Libya. It can, advocates note, survive in an area defended by the best opposing anti-aircraft systems and it can destroy them. This is being linked with calls — mostly from Republicans but Democrats are speaking out as well — to do something to help the Libyan opposition against the badly tailored and worse coiffed man who sort of leads the country: Muammar Gaddafi.


In a piece titled, “U.S. Fifth Generation Fighters Could Enforce No-Fly Zones,” the Lexington Institute’s Dan Goure argues for the plane’s deployment: “Apparently, the Secretary forgot that he has an airplane specifically designed to operate in contested airspace, full of hostile SAMs and aircraft.”

Goure is certainly not alone in his sentiment but few others are willing to take the public stage yet to argue for the F-22’s use over Libya. Some airpower advocates would like to see the first F-35s used over Libya to prove just how capable they are. And Goure notes that F-35 would be even more useful in Libya, especially the F-35B, the vertical take-off plane being built for the Marines.

This argument is being played out not only in terms of aircraft, but also in terms of national will, decisiveness and the fact that power unexercised is irrelevant. If the Obama administration — and Defense Secretary Robert Gates — shies away from a fight as good as this one appears to be, then when will America use its enormous power for good.

Goure opens his piece this way: “The debate over the imposition of a no-fly zone is paralyzed by the specter of the U.S. having to attack Libyan surface to air missile (SAM) sites as a precursor to such an operation. Secretary of Defense Gates effectively shut down discussion of the no-fly option when he asserted in testimony that such an operation would begin with attacks on Libyan SAM sites.”

And he ends it with this argument for the muscular use of power:  “The idea that the will of the Free World and the ability of the U.S. military to operate where and when it chooses can be stymied by the threat from the obsolescent, poorly-maintained and badly trained Libyan air defense system is ludicrous.”

Expect more and more of this sort of debate as the next presidential election approaches.

Join the Conversation

Based upon this statement: “If the Obama administration — and Defense Secretary Robert Gates — shies away from a fight as good as this one appears to be, then when will America use its enormous power for good.” I would guess we should use our nuclear capability against North Korea and Iran!

Without a clear request from the Libyan people it would be very, very unwise to go aid them unasked, even with a UN mandate.

There will always be SNAFUs and then this help — be it covert weapons supplies, SOF/advisors on the ground or F-22s enforcing a no-fly zone — will backfire as meddling into the “people’s revolution”.

It would ‘taint’ the popular uprising and have negative repercussions around the entire Arab ‘arc of revolution’, starting the Blame Game all over again — ie *everything* is the fault of the Great Satan, real or imagined, including losses and/or set-backs in this revolution.

WHy do anything — I’m ticked they are even supplying relief to them at all. Let them kill each other — less chance of replacements being sent

continued: Less chance of replacemnts being sent to Afghanistan or iraq. These people hate us plain and simple, heard one in an interview ask for bush & no fly zone but no one else other than thier former ambasador here now asking for assylum. Let them fight then get hungry and fight harder — unless they ask for help and offer anything in return (say a million barrels a day for 1 yr per target destroyed) stay out of it completely. Right now all of the mercs he would normally be hiring to harras our troops in the sand box are now in lybia protecting him, I say this is a good thing and leave it that way.

I think we’d be better off staying the hell out of this too, but the President has already committed us to the side of the rebels. What are we going to do if Qaddafi fights his way out of this? We’ve got senior administration officials saying “Qaddafi must go”, senior military quoted in the press discussing options, congress critters spouting off… Why can’t these people just shut the F up!? What happened to discipline?

I wish rebels the best in most cases — but what a tremendously horrible idea.

“We built them. Let’s use them…”

If that is true representation of sentiment, all the peace advocates that have called for disarmament over the years have a much better argument than I’d ever believed. If having powerful weapons sets countries out on a quest to find somewhere to make use them, then I’d have to say the peaceniks were on to something when they said we were better off not building them.

“[W]hen will America use its enormous power for good…”

Advocates should think about how this would apply individually. If someone were physically strong, think of all the good they could do! They could go through life, enforcing their will on everyone around them. All to the good, of course, always for the good. Everything and everyone would be their business, because they had the “power” to make people do good, and power [apparently] implies the right do to whatever you’d like with it.

In the past, whenever I heard “might makes right” it was meant critically… I didn’t realize it was the new rallying cry for interventionists everywhere.

Personally, I prefer governments (and people) that recognize that not everything and everyone is their business.

The alternative of an unlimited government using its “enormous power” to enforce “good” throughout the whole globe is absolutely terrifying.

I’m guessing many of these rebels aren’t too fond of the United States. Yet if we don’t aid them and they are crushed by Gaddafi’s government I’m guessing we’ll be blamed for not taking action. So no matter what we do people are going to blame the US for something bad.

Where are we going to fly them from and how are we going to support them?

An unsupportable idea from the get go — can we at least get a good idea?

Must be the dumb ones advocating it.

They have made a direct request for assistance from us.

Discipline? IN Washington?! LMAO!

So lets allow the dictator to commit mass murder? I guess. I mean if we do help them they’re just gonna hate us anyway. Let em kill each other. We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

We ought to have a carrier based 5th gen fighter.

The Bush 41 crew seemed to keep their stuff together when the Warsaw Pact came apart.

Lack of discipline in our senior leaders counts as a damn good reason to stay out, IMO. It’s also why we’re probably going to jump in. They can’t appreciate their own faults, besides, they’re running “the most powerful nation on Earth.”

Qaddafi remaining in power is in nobody’s interest. If we’re going to get involved in that, then I want as little involvement as possible, and I want our forces boarding the planes *the second* Muamar is dead. No do-gooder nation building! If they want help, they can ask the UN or the NGOs.

Well I do believe the Navy is extremely well equipped to handle the job alone. Everything is in one place if needed by NATO and the UN. The French just completed CARQUALS last year on our aircraft carrier so between the two countries I would think there is enough firepower to handle the job.

We don’t need the USAF to be involved at all period. The Navy E2’s, Prowlers, and F18’s can do the job without the interference of the USAF. With the USAF we have have 5 AWACS, 10 Tankers, Translant enough supply C17’s to set the system on its ear, 10 generals and goodness and untold Cols. and goodness knows how many F22’s and enough support people to build your pool.

Save the TAD, medals and all the PR on how we won the war with airpower and just leave the job to the “USN Pros”. They don’t need help!!!!!

What will Mr Gates say about this? This could become another Vietnam.

This is not necessarily a F-22 mission. F-15’s out of Italy could handle this mission. Or for that matter F-18’s off carriers. I’d like to see them get clever about it and use Apache’s off LHD’s to deal with the air defense net and follow with the fighter/attack aircraft.

With only 186 F-22s we need to use them as little as possible. We wore the hell out of our fighters doing Northern and Southern Watch for a decade doing nothing but a bunch of left hand turns over Iraq. Any of our other fighters could handle this mission without much fuss. We’ve got hundreds of them to play with. Back in the day when we attacked Libya we had to fly around France from England. Does the same problem exist or could we fly from Italy this time around?

Are they going to subsidize our costs with cheap (or free) oil? Our answer should mirror theirs. There’s no reason to risk blood or spend treasure anymore, unless there are clear benefits that can be realized from it. The free ride is over.

Libyan molitary active personnel were at 119,000 and 45,000 reserve. The IISS estimated tank numbers in 2009 as 2,025: 200 T-72; 115 in store; 100 T-62; 70 in store; 500 T-55; 1,040 T-54/T-55 in store. The IISS estimated there were 50 BRDM-2 and 70 EE-9 Cascavel reconnaissance vehicles, 1,000 BMP-1s, plus 750 BTR-50 and BTR-60s were also reported by the IISS. Air Force operated a number of MiG-25, possibly more than 60 were delivered, consisting of MiG-25PD, MiG-25RBK, MiG-25PU and MiG-25RU variants.

Thier suppliers were Russia and China.

Why would I care if we put up a no fly zone over Libya? Is the replacement government going to have woman’s rights? Will woman have the right to vote? No? We should only support regimes / groups that cast away the backward, mid-evil tribal behavior of this region. We don’t have the money to do anything else.
And as for a no-fly zone. Let the Europeans do it. End of story. Our mission is to get any American citizens out of harms way. Once that is done, the mission is over. This is a civil war that we do not need to be involved in.

Yup. Agree.

“And Goure notes that F-35 would be even more useful in Libya, especially the F-35B, the vertical take-off plane being built for the Marines.”

You didn’t hear the news? The Lexington Institute is going to change their logo to the same one as Lockheed Martin.

The f-22 does spend time in the middle east, it’s just not broadcast very often but if you keep an eye on the airfields like Qatar, Kuwait you will see them

Ole Charlie, if that is his real name, knows how to do WAR! May I add.…the USAF would probably bomb the wrong house and shoot down two UH-60’s(they all look alike!) in the process!

For some reason they seem to think if we help them that the rebels will stop hating us all the sudden (thye turn a blind eye that they kill thier own Christian countrymen constantly just for being non muslim). We pretty much know where Momar is — why do we need to bring him to trial — a couple of tomahawks will seal his fate and save us billions in prosecuting him while turning the country over to the rebels. Launch from a sub and nobody will be the wiser due to not being able to track the 109’s as they fly to target. That is the only help we should provide and not another dime.

Concur

Don’t you think the russian and chinese intelligence services would just love this?

Why would we expect for this administration to actually use the plane for what it was designed for? That might mean that their stupid decision to close the production line could be seen as wrong, and no we can’t have that happen.

We need to send in the snow mobile engine powered UAV’s, or better yet the F-35. Vaporware hardware for exercising vaporware policy (or lack of). Its a brilliant idea!

We should be thinking of a way we can use our raptors in iraqe and afganastan. We need to stop underudalizing the air force!

I don’t see how anyone can call for F-35 use over Libya. How many operational F-35s do we have? Zero?

Your statement is a good indicator of the reason Gates is the Secretary of Defense, and you flip burgers

This is the moment of truth bomb the palace of Kadaffi prove the raptors can do the job.More sales.besides if another country bombed the palace to keep him from killing his own citizens wed get accused anyway.Lets help therebels asking ‚begging for help??BTW. Tunesia is creating a human crisses since all the people left their country for Europe,get it going!!!

F-14A’s shot down Libyan fighters in the 80’s. Why send the best to do what the Air Force can do with a squadron of F-16’s at a much lower cost. The reason to send F-22’s would be to neutralize an air defense
network. I don’t think Libya has an air defense network?

invisible jet is perfect, for what destroy SAM? except if we see one poor army can destroy the “better “airplane in the world

What — something that makes sense — you must be kidding me. USAF letting the Army into the game. Woooo!
This would be a fantastic idea. Only problem is the Apache cannot fold the rotors — another screw up by our planning folks. That makes it an annoyance but that is about it. The “Yellow Shirts” can work with it. And the Dutch, Brits and Greece could contribute as well.….….……

Well, all you need is the Marines with Cobras and Hueys to do the job. After all, they are already trained and adapted to work from LPH/LPD’s. No need to bring the Army into an area they are not trained for.

From Twitter

natlsecuritycnn CNN Natl Security
US Marine’s Amos — #Libya greatest air threat is their helicopter forces. Air assets concentrated around four bases in Tripoli

F22’s ???????????

Gaddafi is currently pro western. At least he was a few weeks ago! Part of me thinks “better the devil you know than the devil you don’t” The last thing we need is a new government over there which turns out to be another Iran, after all we don’t know who’ll take over yet.

Iraq should have taught us that doing what we think is the right thing isn’t always recorded by history as the right thing. This needs global support if we’re to interfere, then everyone shares the blame if it goes wrong, not just the US and and a few others.

If we do get involved and just use stealth then we may not have to completely destroy (kill people) their air defense. I don’t know if we’d have to employ tankers and AWACS in Libyan airspace, if we do have to then its pointless using stealth. If we don’t use stealth then we need to kill a whole lot of people by taking out their capabilities and that won’t win us friends amongst their population. We need to think long term, which is a thing we in the US are not so good at.

If we bomb ground targets how can we be sure which side is operating a particular system. Both sides on detecting an aircraft will fire on it which will meet with retribution from us.

If the white house feels its necessary to get involved I think we should do it quietly by using CIA and SF to organize the rebels and leave the country to forge its own future.

Not enough F22’s is just the top of the iceberg. This concerns me because the Russians and the Chinese are increasing their military spending and we are decreasing ours. Hopefully our government will realize this and change their thought process.

Hate to tell you F-22 guys but the F-15 is also far superior to the MiG-25s and MiG-23s Libya has for its best fighters. most of which are grounded due to lack of parts and missiles for them. A F-16 would be more logical in Libya than a F-22.

When Reagan authorized an attack on Libya in the early 80s we flew F111s from England and some other planes. Libyia did indeed have air defense and I believe we had 2 or three planes shot down. Using the Stealth planes makes it much less likely that we will lose planes and pilots. I might add that we also had at least one F16 shot down in Bosnia by a SAM. Even Saddam shot down a few of our gen 4 planes with SAMs and ground fire.

Precisely, there are no F-35’s available, only hip videos and colorful PowerPoint presentations, 12 years and hundreds of billions of dollars later. :-)

Before the USA goes half cocked into another conflict let’s reflect on the past 10 years in Irag and Afghanistan. We committed substantial combat forces in Iraq defeating organized army forces. Pulled heavy combat arms out when the war was declared finished. In turn infantry units were required to search and destroy pockets of enemy without direct fire support from heavy artillery and tanks. Replacing them with engineers, Military Police, logistics and motor transport troops. We failed to hunt down and kill those enemy soldiers who ditched their uniforms becoming citizens. We didn’t clear and destroy large caches of weapons, ammunition or explosives. Those citizen soldiers rearmed and we’ve been paying for it ever since.

In Afghanistan we have yet to commit sufficient combat ground forces, combat support forces and combat engineers to be tactically efficient. We’ve all heard from our politically appointed representatives about the success we’re experiencing in Afghanistan. But, when you hear from Marines, Sailors and Soldiers in the VA Hospitals and in VA PTSD Groups. The bottom line is the combat units are generally squad and platoon size, their fighting under complicated restrictions on when, where, and how they are permitted to seek out, find and destroy known enemy forces. Their Close Air Support is typically 40 minutes away if approved. Outpost are in isolated locations. When attacked by superior forces. Re-enforcements are so far away that
it amounts to ‘TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE’.

Think about this before you willingly commit our Men and Women of the U.S. Armed Forces.

Things haven’t improved that much with the Veterans Administration either.

Robert W. Gonzales
Vietnam Veteran 1965, 66, & 67
100% Disabled
Sergeant of Marines (Ret).

This is true, but we have no F-15s in Italy. If we are going to deploy a squadron to Aviano, then it might as well be F-22s.

We do need to save them, but the F-22 does need to be combat proven. This situation allows for plenty of targets while not being so dangerous as to unnecessarily put such an expensive plane at risk.

I guess it comes down to whether you find military intervention more distasteful, or the prospect of Gadhafi remaining in power.

You need to run for office (common sense))

Excuse me byt a no fly zone over another country is an act of WAR and this is a civil war between two islamic sects, Neither one likes us or will respect us in the morning. Get the drift. Even with a UN mandate , the europeans should be able to do this with no sweat. Our mission is get Amesicans out and watch. Sorry if the “rebels” don’t have black market Stingers or a russian or chinese varient. Money well spent I believe.

Absolutely NOT!!!! For once, let the chicken s__t Euro Mutts handle something. We have enough on our plates already in Iraq & Afgan. We don’t need to get involved in some one else’s civil war. Let them sort it out by themselves. We get most of our oil from Canada & Mexico. Libya is a small player. If Europe is so worried, let them get their noses bloodied for once. We don’t owe them a darned thing.

Do ya know what happens when ya stick your neck out too far??? Ya it gets cut off! Do ya know what happens when ya stick yer nose in somebody else’s business ya, ya get AF. Unless the cheese burger in the W/H has troops he can shove out his azz we better take car of the two on going wars/ conflicts, plus N. Korea, Egypt, and else where.
Lets give some real thought before we may need those nifty new fighters etc: over N. Korea instead of over another rag land.

Does anyone remember VIETNAM!!!!! Where is this going? Sounds like Tactical is talking without consulting Practical. This sounds like an idea founded to risk losing some very very very expensive gear without a logistical and tactical support plan. The anti-government rebels need to stand up and identify themselves, organize, grow numbers into political military movement willing to fight and then ask world for help.

A No Fly Zone over Libya? No way no how. The Libyan people are NOT our friends no matter what the various news organizations may want us to think. Assuming that because someone is anti-Khadaffi they are pro-US is idiocy. The opposition wants a No Fly Zone because they know they will otherwise lose this fight. Khadaffi has skilled pilots flying for him as well as a well established anti-aircraft network which would make a sustained No Fly Zone a suicide mission. The illiterate yahoos we call the “opposition party” wouldn’t know a Raptor from an L39 and would be just as likely to shoot at either one if given the chance.

To put it plain and simple this is another case of local people which need to deal with a local problem. This is a situation which Africa needs to solve on its own without our intervention. Any fanatical despot who can cling to power for 41 years is no idiot. Even if we cut off his airpower he will find a way to make the world more miserable by the day. This situation needs to be resolved by Libyans themselves. Chances are that whoever comes out on top of this mess still won’t be anyone that the U.S. could trust anymore than Khadaffi.

Ignore the Libyan fiasco

Base them where? Air Refueling support from where? Who is paying out of what pot of no-fly money? Do we know they are and really want the rebels to win? And fly F-35s!! The first ones now in test probably have no weapons clearance completed! Beware of foreign entanglements.

If the European Countries do NOT contibute the majority of this protective measures, then the HELL with any USA going alone again! After all, they get the BULK of Libya’s oil exported Oil we don’t? Besides Britian has always superceded the US in Libya, at least it was that way when I spent my “years” there (Tripoli). Get these rectums, that always seem to enjoy the sideline view of any international problems, but are full of hot air otherwise, to be the major players here.
Last thing I want to hear from the balconey is, we are the “only” ones that can do it, because we already did it before, and it also KILLED all the planes that was used over Iraq.….doing that mission.…..

@E_L_P made the point already but it bears repeating.

There’s only one point that counts here : “The Lexington Institute advocates.” This is no longer the Lexington Institute’s (read: Loren B. Thompson’s) usual advocacy for a particular U.S. buying strategy, supporting certain firms. Thompson’s Institute is now airing an outright commercial.

For a real weighted analysis, read Harlan Ullman at UPI, March. 9, 2011 at 6:34 AM.

Symbolicalhead added the rest. This is not strategy or tactics let alone politics. It is pure unadulterated greed.

That’s all, folks.

Good luck on finding enough FMC F-22. It takes 186 to make 40 FMC aircraft on a good day.

Why is it that most people don’t remember all the newscasts over the years showing people marching in middle east countries burning the U S Flag and chanting death to America?These are the same people sending terrorists out throughout the world to kill Americans–help them–B.S

While it would be an easy job for the US to take care of the situation in Libya and North Korea; but is it the place of the United States of America to be the world’s police? Why must we do this, we helped the “rebels” in Afghanistan when the Russians invade and what did it get us? Have we forgotten what happened in Somalia? And we don’t know who these rebels are as the new Libya might be even worst than what exists currently.

Let the French and Germans take the lead as they’re always pointing the finger at the US whenever we do anything.

Or better yet, let countries in the Middle East like Saudi Arabia and the UAE handle this.

There already IS another Vietnam.…it’s called Aftghanistan.

Cobra’s and Huey’s are great birds. they’re from my era. But this don’t have the capabilities of the Apache. The Apache’s shredded Sadam’s air defenses in short order.

F-22’s are great planes, very stealthy. But the F-15E or the F/A-18 are more capable ground attack planes. The F-22 has more air to air then air to ground ability.

Forgot about those pesky rotors. Just seems that for the cost they should fold.
How about removing two blades from each bird until just before a mission. That would make them narrower. My era was the huey and the cobra; and I don’t know how much of problem that was to do on those birds much less an Apache.

stay out of it. we can’t even resolve the numerous problems here in the U.S. We have an inept congress, a dumb ass or fox for a president, and the people can’t concentrate on anything beyond 2 weeks (unless it has to do with charlie sheen or lady gaga or madona). look at the history over the years of support eroding for our military actions. our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines deserve better!

We get 5% of the petroleum output from them. Does this really make any sense in terms of risk versus reward. No more worlds police. Let the middle east pull them through with the weapons sales provided to the middle eastern allies at large. They must prevail as a worthy force without external political interference.

I’m forced to remember the downing of our super high-tech “Stealth” F117A during the first Gulf War. Seems I read that the loss of that one plane — in a conflict no less egregious to the participants on the ground that this Libyan fight — helped China develop its still infant stealth technology.

If we’re going to do something, it needs to be decisive and offer the ‘enemy’ the least opportunity to profit from it.

Head of Interim Free Libya Government in Benghazi begged for West NoFlyZone, he was Gadafi’s Justice Minister, now has $500,000 bounty on his head.
I agree with DOD Buzz. No media, even military expert commentators, politicians, Gates or Joint Chiefs EVEN EVEN mentioned the Raptor.
Just blabber-stupidity about going to war, declaration of war, mass bombing of air defenses, cratering runways, collateral damage, ineffective against helicopters, ad nauseum lies and omissions.
This is the prime opportunity to highlight, showcase and prove American technological superiority and usefulness in delicate conditions.
Most Importantly, Abdul-Jalil has requested our help to save his people from butchery.
We are revolutionaries, 1775–83.
We are ALL special forces, De Oppresseo Tyrannis.
We are humanitarians and Christians.

we need to stay out on Libya — use our resources when the security of the U.S.A. is on the line.

You should do more research — Your statements are way off the mark

Libyan National Council leader Abdul-Jalil requested no fly zone from US today on CNN. He was Gadafi’s Justice Minister, $500, 000 bounty on his head.

I’m sorry if I seem to be confused but aren’t these the same people who welcomed back as a national hero that piece of s*#@ who was convicted of placing the bomb on Pan Am Flight 103?! I say let the ******** kill each other. I’m sure most Americans will not give a s*#@!

I want an honest anwer, is the F22 a $143 million hanger queen, a $26 billion boondoogle, or can it fly unchallendged over Libya tomorrow without a massive suppression campaign preceding? It’s 1 or the other. Does it not bother you profoundly that no DOD or news reporter has even mentioned the stealth F22?
Does it even exist, fly, or just sit mean looking with no bite or fight?

As far as I know the American people have lost nothing in Libya. Why should we be told to waste our blood or treasure there?

why would we even have to fly planes to enforce fly zone?wouldn’t knocking them out on the tarmac with cruise missiles achieve the same result? no more aircraft! no risk to pilots.

And as usual Obama vacilates on what to do, decisive as ever. By the time he makes a decision it will be over one way or the other.

Tankers over the Med with Navy CAP, stealth a/c out of Italian bases with AWAC support, short flight to Libya.

Malta also has airbase.

SM-6 anti air missile has 330 km range on flying jets.

Is F22 fight worthy or not?

I don’t think that Libya is worth losing the life of ANY American troops-especially with the way their people and government have always regarded the U S [THE GREAT SATAN]–screw-em–let them solve it themselves.

In short the answer is NO!!

I’ve read dozens of posts on this thread, and I see the main question raised to be …

Is this fight our fight? … and … if yes, what’s the best approach to get the job done?

For getting in or not, I’m very pleased to say that I have read no comments that we should go in because the situation matches our capability, as argues in the article. I’ve read arguments that it’s another Vietnam and that we are already having little success in two current wars, all of which I agree with, but you don’t avoid a conflict because its messy, you just improve your funding, strategy, and timing — if it is really your fight to engage in.

To me, when people argue the service or tools to use, it’s putting the cart before the horse. From the excellent comments of almost every person (clearly excluding the one about letting them kill themselves), it’s clear that the real question is not how to do war here, but whether to engage.

It seems there is no argument that it is in our national interest to help the rebels, since they are going to continue to hate us either way, and will likely hate us more if we do go in. Even those being targeted by the government, would not argue that it is our responsibility to save them. This time, we didn’t encourage revolution, as we did in so many places past. This one was the people uprising, to follow the lead in Tunisia and Egypt.

In my view, the only valid argument is one of helping them avoid suffering. I see that as helping them with medicine and food, but military action — even to level the playing field, arms, or intelligence expertise, are acts of war in this clearly civil-war, so I cannot see imposing a no-fly zone, even under a UN or NATO umbrella. Let’s put serious pressure on the government and let this thing play out.

I wish our national leadership were 1/10 as intelligent as the people on this thread. These wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are simply ridiculous, and should have been avoided.

I fear and predict that the US will commit air power to a no-fly zone in Lybia. The pressure on Obama to “do something” because he has been a largely ineffective president in most everything, is great. We need Congress to block it, whether it be according to reason (not our fight), or an appeal to stop wasting money that prevent it. But Congress is wimpy and will likely fail to resist the fight.

See, there you go, Bronco46, using logic (and a little aircraft capability knowhow) again. This is your last warning.

Do we really think we can get involved in Libya. We need to stay out and let nature run its course. World War forever is just insane.

Gents, A Very Good Idea to test them out for real! Why else did we spend millions and millions to develop them!!!!

“Why else did we spend millions and millions to develop them!!!!”

Are you kidding? To defend the United States and our allies, not to throw them at every third world hellhole that decides to have a civil war.

Great way to show everyone the f-22s limitations. Every collector in the planet would be in the area. By far the dumbest idea in a series of dumb ideas.

Civil wars are normally not something in whicjh the US needs to be involved. When the people have had enough the problem will resolve itsself. Besides, I see no one in libya ever actively supporting the US. And of course, we never finished our “shock and Awe” campaign which has become another Vietnam. Someone in the White House needs to get realistic about using force and not dragging things along for many years. So now they want to do it again? Seems like it is also the voters who failed once again.

Hey! if the F-22 is as stealthy as everyone says let’s not send them over and say we did. Who’s going to know the difference?

Libyans: I didn’t see an F-22!

USA: Yeah, that’s right because they are stealthy. (make the bug-eyed face and the I’m watching you hand signal)

It’s a win-win there is no international incident since F-22’s safely in their hangar in america can’t be shot down and the rebels are going to thank us anyway when it’s all over so it’s best not to waste the money.

You guys have to admit this is pretty much in keeping with the administrations foreign policy to date anyway.

For the love of all that’s holy, stay the floggin’ hell out of libya’s problems.
“We ain’t got a dog in that fight.”

Agree 100%

The fact is AMERICA cannot police issues that will economicly brigns the U.S. to our knees. Governments are born and do die with terrorism as the bossom of either. America needs to assert itself on the fundamental values of the constitution. The economy is a BIG factor internally.

“People’s Revolution” my a$$. This is a civil war and they will need to settle it among themselves.

Too little too late appears to be the current policy. If we were going to create a no fly zone, it should have been done a couple weeks ago, now we are saying lets get UN approval, that means another couple of weeks, the war could be over by then. So the best thing is to do nothing.

Ever read Charlie Pierce’s “Idiot America”? Charlie’s writings may help understand the current “might makes right” phenomenom.

So you think we should risk a 100 million + dollar plane for a mission like this?

Did I miss previous warnings? And if so what did they reference?

I’m all for the Gadhafi regime getting rinsed away. But one thing bothers me, well two things: One, How do we tell WHO among the folks rebelling are TRUE to their quest for Democracy? and how many are plants from the beloved organization known as the “Muslim Brotherhood” ?? TWO, Where are we going to get the money to cover the cost of fighting another war.??? Don’t kid yourwelf it would definitely be a WAR.!

I’m with you 100% Tim. Having worked in “Advanced Composite Materials” myself. I was not surprised to see the first deployments go to Alaska. As with the F-117, we found excessive heat & thrashing sands had very damaging effects on the coatings required for stealth. None the less, I’m sure many other options are available w/ equal deny-ability. Funny, my name is also “TIM” ;>) Keep the Faith” Bubba !

As a European I fully understand those of You who don’t think this civil war in Libya is any of Your business in the US. On the other hand the situation is a fine excuse to finally get even with Gaddafi and some of Libya for the Lockerbie and other terrorist acts. Why not use the chance?
I agree that Europe probably should do it, and the intervention should be very limited to actions to help the rebellion to overthrow Gaddafi, but how do we secure a regime afterwards which will not be even worse than Gaddafi in terms of religion, democracy and women’s rights? Probably we can’t secure that in any way, but I think it is morally wrong to just sit put and do nothing at all. If we keep negotiating with UN and the Arab league, then the risk is that Gaddafi wins before anything is decided. Then it will be too late for a possible change to the better.

Lets become the Great Satan and really send a message to all who would oppose us. Thats right — I’m talking about all those camel loving sand pirates and their slightly closed eyez brothers in Asia.
Send in the F-22’s and F-35’s until they bleed oil.… hahahaha
Here would be the best testing field of all time — with the exception of Iraq (one word — bombs) ! We threw more bombs at Goddanm than the whole WWII — holy crap ! Look it up…
So send them in with or without the world’s approval. Who’s going to stop us… Stop being a Chinese Puppet (Obozo) and lets ROCK the world…

Boomer, not that I disagree with the use of Tomahawks. In fact I’d rain them down on every SAM site and airbase in Libya, but not put one pair of boots inside their airspace or within sight of “The Shores of Tripoli”

But to think, “nobody will be the wiser”… CNN will have photos of missile fragments within hours of them hitting. Not that it bothers me in the least. What’s several dozen cruise missiles to keep the price of gas under $3/gallon right? Oh because “freedom” is not what Libyans want. They just don’t want Quaddafi and his clan skimming a huge percentage off of the top of every money making endevour there.

Justa correction VietVet:

“F-117 (S/N 82–0806) “Something Wicked” remains the only F-117 lost to enemy action. It was lost during a mission against the Army of Yugoslavia on 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War.” No F-117s were lost in combat in the Gulf War.

They need to toot that horn louder, so everyone in the world will have no doubt we are not just doing it for oil or religious crusader reasons. I’m sure we would offend the Ruling House of Saud no matter what we do, as they are pretty worried that Saudi Arabia will be next.

Where was the strategic concern when we went into Afghanistan or Iraq? Neither of those were of particularly important significance in strategy. At least with Libya the world has a stake in the world economy, to see oil flowing to heal the economy.

It makes more sense to make friends with a new Libyan regime than anything else we’ve done so far in the Middle East. It is still a risky and probably stupid idea.

Personally I think we need to seriously say goodbye to oil! I don’t need it — I have an electric vehicle and a hybrid — I don’t need oil. I can charge them both with wind, CNG, and solar power — and do now! We don’t need no stinking oil!!!

You sure your last name is spelled Kidds; or is it Kidd, as in Captain KIdd? You sure act like a pirate’s relative! Maybe before you start slinging racist insults, you should look in a mirror?

The last time right wingers thought as you do tim it got us about ten years years of nothing and well over four thousand of our finest dead. Thats the problem with you right wing nut jobs, you can’t think. If you think this is such a good fight why don’t you and a few of your buddies go and fight it, and take T.HAMPTON with you.

The best thing the U.S. can do is handle this mess bush left on the table and stay away from the civil affairs of other countries. Let France handle Libya or whatever it’s called.

It is stupid to use expensive plane and risk human lives. Use HAARP and burn the towel head out of Lybia like a Basal Cell Carcinoma. Bet the pussy runs screaming and boo hooing to the international community saying it is not proper to kill the leader of the country.

man get welnoticed that america and the entire world shared the fincial crisis becouse of americas poor war strategy onto iraq.dont forget so easily that the due to assesment of this kind of war,the crisis can strike again

in my mind the thing the F-22 is best suited for is deep penetration though heavily defended skys, and thats no the case — don’t get me wrong I love F-22s but when we could get the same results from the older ( and cheaper as well as more numerous ) F-15s then by all means we should save it for another day and use it only as a last resort but a fly over of 10 may prove to be anuff to get kadafi to step down and really I think they would make a better bargaining tool then not

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