Q: Why So Long For a New Bomber? A: Money, Honey

Q: Why So Long For a New Bomber? A: Money, Honey

Continuing our midweek focus on stealthy jets, Air Force brass today said budget pressures are the reason that it will take until the mid-2020s for the next generation stealth bomber to be operational, despite the fact that it is being developed with existing and “mature” technologies.

“It’s an issue of affordability and fitting this program in with all those other Air Force priorities we’ve outlined today; building the [KC-46] tanker, building the Joint Strike Fighter … funding satellites on a schedule that we need to make sure we don’t reach the point of mission failure,” Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told the House Appropriations defense subcommittee today.

Donley was answering a question from New Jersey Democrat Rep. Steve Rothman, as to why it will take so long to field an aircraft built using “proven” technologies. DoDBuzz asked this very question on the day the Pentagon rolled out its fiscal year 2012 budget.

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz then added a bit of clarity as t the weapons the bomber will carry, confirming that in addition to normal guided bombs and nuclear munitions, the jet will carry “stand-off” weapons, aka cruise missiles.

Yesterday, Donley and Schwartz told Senators that the service hopes to buy 80 to 100 of the new bombers, which are expected to reach initial operating capability in the “mid 2020s.” The Air Force included $197 million for the bomber in its FY-12 budget request and has slated $3.7 billion for the plane over the next five years.

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Just another thing to blame on Nobama, will it ever end. Can’t wait for 2012!!!

Yes, because the president by himself decides the budget of the air force. Wake up, bonehead, and read up on how our political system works.

The Air force is right to delay procurement. By 2020 our bomber fleet will consist of stealth drones.

Of course its about money! See Erin Conaton’s comments here in this piece from National Defense. This is only the beginning. http://​tinyurl​.com/​4​r​q​o​99p

Navy needs to take a turn at bat here–and soon. How long can they continue to maintain CVBG’s on station for the sake of “naval presence”?

Good Afternoon Folks,

It is very unlikely that the USAF will ever buy and of this. The ineffectiveness of conventional US air dominance on land attack tactics over Libya has show the inefficiency of air power alone. The inability of US and NATO air power to cripple let alone take out Colonel Gadhafi’s military to the point he can no longer defend himself and his regime was/has not been achieved by air power alone.

Massive air strikes not aimed a specific targets, and the random dropping of ordinance that are of no value just doesn’t work. Poorly planned air assaults such as we currently seeing over Liyba are senseless and only cause unnecessary collateral damage that the US will end up paying to rebuild. It is quite apparent that the air offense went in with out even the most basic of intelligence and planning and just dropped ordinance and prayed something was hit and got out of Dodge as fast as possible.

THe USAF and USN has learned nothing from the the UAV strikes in Afghanistan/Pakistan that have produced so far a successful air campaign. So far the US has spent $543 million on bombs to create a Libyan urban renewal project that US tax payers will have to foot the bill for.

It would appear that all of our USAF and USN General Staff is to busy trying to con congress to fund a second engine for the worthless F-35 program, that they don’t need in the first place, to bother planning a “war”. There is just no excuse for this kind of shoddy air campaign that is currently being conducted over Libya. We have the technology to do it right, but lack the human element that is still vested in a WW II carpet bombing mentality.

Fifteen year old kids playing “WOW” could have come up with a better and more effective air campaign over Libya the our so called “war fighters” in the Pentagon.

The US can and had done it right, President Obama shouild be ashamed of this lack luster cowboy performance by the USAF and USN and make his unhappiness know with both axes on budgets for projects like the B-3 and to the heads of the USAF USN General and Admirals who can’t even conduct a swift and effective air campaign over a third, no fourth rate country.

This is noting less then a national embarrassment.

Byron Skinner

they will simply reduce the number of hot spots which requiire battle group presence, don’t expect a shift away from the policy which deems they use carriers to project force. matter of fact in relation to this article you may see more use of navy carrier groups to project force as our post cold war world has reduced the number of USAF facilities overseas to do the same job.
but you’re right money is everything now, with talk about dollar collapse being nearly inevitable to some degree in the near future (if not collapse then replaced as the dominant currency in petroleum sales) it’s hard to get anyone behind huge projects.

I do not believe it is airpower that is ineffective in Libya, it is the limitations placed on it. Airpower could easily stop Ghadaffi’s ground force if ordered to do so.

I do not know where you get the ‘random dropping of ordinance’ from, but you are incorrect. You make it sound like everyone is just dropping bombs on dirt to impress the opposition. Untrue.

Where did you get the $543 million number spent on bombs? I can understand the $150 million or so for the T’hawks, but the remaining $400 or so million would buy a lot of bombs (how many JDAMs at $50-60K each?). Sortie generation too low for that number IMHO.

The F-136 engine has been killed. Official Stop Work order issued last week. BTW it was not DoD or USAF clamoring for the F-136. It was Congress and their reminicing of the F-100/F-110 competition of 30+ years ago.

UAVs work in other areas becuse we have total supremecy of the air. Need manned acft to achieve that.

Thanks for sharing that rant. And for ignoring the fact that these strikes are limited by the UN Mandate — not a whole lot, mind you, but this is not exactly shock and awe. Not meant to be. Compared to Operation Allied Force, this has been a walkover. Fewer places to hide. No 40,000 foot restrictions — admittedly the Libyan air defenses are far less capable than the Serbs’. Show, me, pal, where the collateral damage has been excessive. You can’t.
Now I admit that all you would really need to wrap this thing up is to land a Marine Amphibious Brigade in Tripoli, “The Wind and the Lion” style, march to the palace and say to the colonel, “You are my prisoner”. But that would be sabre-rattling, Teddy Roosevelt-style. Can’t have any of that now. Smart power, that’s what we do nowadays. Little force, lots of diplomacy. But for heavens sake, don’t beat up on the Air Force and the Navy both for following their orders, and trying to win. That’s what they are supposed to do.

Meanwhile, the Coast Guard decommissioned four still-useful ships because of a lack of funds. 770 personnel slots will be closed. Good luck “most dangerous catch” fishermen. Cocaine smugglers won’t need luck.

Good Evening Folks,

The first to blame is the ROE’s. Can’t target this, cant’s target that etc. That really doesn’t explain why our attack planes can’t hit assigned Zip Codes. For years the US public has been sold on the idea of precision weapons with “sub-meter” accuracy.

What we are seeing in Libya is a complete failure of the USAF and USN’s chain of command. From training air crews to target select, to using intelligence to engaging the target. President Obama it’s way past the time to fire some of these Admirals and Generals and find officers who want to fight and will fight.

To open this bombing campaign three B-2 with 45 2000# process of ordinance made a strike but it appears they did nothing more the put 45 big divit’s in the Libyan Desert. This last weekend two Bones dropped 100 bombs and according to “official sources” hit “nearly” 100 targets, what targets?

Libya is not going to be the last of these air war in the near future, if we can’t get it right in Libya what can we expect in Stria and Iran?

The problem must be solved. Where are the air planners, the air taskers and the people who can make these strike productive. Where are the pilots/air crews who can drop a GBU or JADAM II with an accuracy of 5 meters and put it on target.

We have been told that current ISR can locate a single individual and put a “dot” on that persons head and take them out at will, we have been told that we have radars that can see into buildings, tell if people are in them and where (what room) these people are in, where are the people who know how to use these magical weapons and devices?

So where are all of our Admirals and General while we are looking like idiots to the world?

They are before congress wanting more money for big expensive weapons. Maybe Congress should demand that before they have any more new toys the learn to use the one they have.

Sources in Europe are saying a second F-15E has been downed, it that true?

Byron Skinner


With or without the democrat-sanctioned voter fraud?

The US must focus on strategic initiatives. Long range bombers, submarines, naval, anti-missle defense, space based capabilities. 100 billion per year conventional wars are unsupportable. Armed forces manpower will be reduced perhaps by 25% or 30%. That is just the reality. As the budget deficits grow, interest on the national debt will consume larger and larger portions of federal tax revenues. Where is the constituency for national defense ? It is getting old. If the choice becomes war fighting vs social security benefits, defense will lose. And simple arithmetic will tell you that is where we are going.

Combine those facts with an administration that hates the very idea of america and it is clear that the military is going to have to leave their comfort zone and lead the nation away from disaster. That means folks are going to have to sacrifice careers. It also means military leaders are going to have tell americans that afghanistan is an strategic disaster that must be abandoned and the president whose policy keeps us pouring blood and treasure into that pit does not have american interests in mind. He goes to bed each night smiling about how much damage he is inflicting on the nation he hates and most particularly on the institution of the military that he particularly despises.

The USAF, USN, and USMC did more than their share in this conflict we shouldn’t even be involved in. President Obama should be ashamed at the USAF and USN? I’m ashamed he is wasting money over there when we have no clue what we are trying to accomplish.

Those burning SA-8s and other SAM launchers should be enough to tell you the USAF and USN did what they are supposed to do. Predators have their uses, but they would have been getting shot down left and right by said SAMs.

Our armed forces performed excellently. The real embarrassment is that we only have a slight idea who these rebels are, and some of what we do know is pretty bad. They don’t have much of a chance of winning anyway, even without Gaddafi’s aircraft bombing them.

So your criticizing the USAF and USN and not Obama for throwing money away? You’re sources don’t seem all that accurate either when you consider that Libya’s Air Force is grounded and most of their SAMs neutralized.

As the saying goes, “No bucks no Buck Rogers”

This isn’t a failure on the part of the military, give them the specific and correct orders and this would have been over in 96 robust hours. Instead you’ve got the White House pandering to the UNSC, NATO, the Arab League etc. We say Qaddafi has lost legitmacy, but then we let the Chinese and Russians water the resolution down to not include it. We have a national command authority saying they want one thing, but refusing to issue the orders to achieve the goal because they would rather hide behind a UN mandate for cover. The administration says it’s a vital American interest but it exerts more effort getting foreigners to like the idea than the US Congress.

Oh, and to stay on topic I think we will buy some of these bombers. It will be less than they want because they will cost more than we hoped. Pretty standard outcome anymore. I’m pretty sure that’s how the F35 will play out as well, either a reduced buy and a total F35 purchase or a hybrid F35 and some new teen series.

Sadly, everything you wrote in your post is true.

America, what are we doing, and what have we done?

The CVBG’s would (of course) cover contingencies, but the routine deployment (like the ‘80s & ‘90s) has got to stop.

Note also that the FED is floating the idea of a “QE3”. So far, the bond market has been reluctant to extract its pound of flesh. QE3 will guarantee a backlash. This will impact not only the deployment cycle (O&M funding), but probably result in ships/aircraft being mothballed.

(I’m resigned to a doubling, maybe a tripling, of Tricare premiums).

To the poster Mr. Byron Skinner


Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “Sources in Europe are saying a second F-15E has been downed, it that true?”

If you were referring to me: As you know, last week or so the first U.S. jet (a F-15) went down over Libya.

But yesterday I read an EXTREMELY similar article on the U.S. American mainstream news again (on “Yahoo!”, where news articles usually last only a few HOURS on the mainpage), and I even posted the link to it, so maybe you read it yourself.
I clearly noticed that that article (even the title!) bore absolutely NO references to week days, dates, hours and precedents, etc., it just kept mentioning that an U.S. fighter got downed over Libya as if it was some news flash. That’s why I expressed my own reservations about this piece by writing “(???)”.


Part 2 / 2

Still: If you keep in mind that in 1999 the U.S.A. famously denied the TELEVISED (!!!) shoot-down of a “stealthy” F-117 by the Serbs for almost a week AFTER it happened and was shown on global TV, indeed a second F-15 may very well have been shot down and this fact even got briefly published, before the Pentagon’s Propaganda machine squashed all facts again.

It seems that the U.S. Cyber-Command is making progress with its little Internet kill switch…

To the djooowess…

You wrote: “Yes, because the president by himself decides the budget of the air force.”

Your “Israel”-whoring President decided to attack and occupy EVEN MORE Muslim countries


than Apeface Bush did. Justify that.

To the poster Mr. Byron Skinner

You wrote: “The ineffectiveness of conventional US air dominance on land attack tactics over Libya has show the inefficiency of air power alone. The inability of US and NATO air power to cripple let alone take out Colonel Gadhafi’s military to the point he can no longer defend himself and his regime was/has not been achieved by air power alone. ”

There are even two historical precedents for the inefficiency of isolated U.S. air campaigns: From the long-lasting air campaign over Kosovo / Serbia to the two even longer-lasting no-fly zones over Iraq…

Congress and the President have spent trillions of dollars that we don’t have. They give money to unions and other liberal causes and then they want to cut defense spending to a danagerous level. The number 1 priority of our Presdient and Congress must be to protect our freedom and way of life against those who want us destroyed. The threat today against our country has never been stronger. What must happen now is for our government to uphold the oath of office they took to protect and defend this country. They are failing to do so and they are putting our existance in jeoperdy. Defense spending must be increased and other spending cut. It’s time to resturcture social security, welfare, and other assistance programs. The handouts must end. Vote to get rid of all democrats in 2012. It’s our only hope.

What is the point of fielding subsonic manned air vehicle based on today´s technologies in unknown and unpredictable environment of 2030–2060? Even if things move as slow as they do, Su-35 will be the baseline fighter in the third-world, 5th generation jets and in time 6th generation manned or unmanned planes being basic air threat, with S-500+ systems, EMP weapons, ground based and ship-based lasers and rail-guns being new line of air defense. Can imagine how sensitive both IR/UV sensors and radars will be at that time? Not to mention space-based and operated weapon systems and space-based sensors, manned or unmanned. So what exactly is this NGB designed to counter? Spears, muskets or ironclads?

are you kidding? The NGB is needed to launch cruise missiles and drop bombs for strategic attack, interdiction, and close air support. This deters enemies from attacking us, and enables us to win wars. hello what are we missing here?

how about just vote out incumbents period, and vote in leaders with an established record of fiscal responsibility.

The S-500 won’t come out in (quote) “2030 — 2060″ : It will already come out in… 2012. Meanwhile the Russians, who make missiles (from Sputnik to skyscraping nukes to stealth-killing A-A-missiles) better than anybody else, are already working on the S-1000. And they will export it to anybody who wants. Hey: Three Arab countries, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Greece (Greece is Middle Eastern, too) have already shown interest in S-400s!

Maybe that’s what you meant. Jolly times ahead.

You’re unhinged.

your first paragraph is basically reiterating Secretary Gates’ public positions. can’t say i agree with you on your 2nd para. pretty weird visions you have.

well that’s the Coast Guard’s dang fault for letting their boats getting that old and screwing up their modrenization program. you point out the speck in your brother’s eye while you still got a plank in your own eye.


interesting concept. too bad political and DoD leadership past failures have resulted in that not being a possible option from a political perspective. well, everyone’s so dang crazy that anything is possible…

All the Money, Honey is funding JSF cost overruns and schedule delays.… april fool’s! jokes on u taxpayers…

S-500 is a dedicated ABM system like THAAD.

What’s going on in Libya is just a part of the “knock-down-the-domino” theory that began in Tunisia, flowed through Egypt/Arab Ems and will end up when Israel can be sure Syria is out of the way. My guess, a spook-inspired, momentum-build to finalize world dominance for the NWO. Doesn’t the Afghan pipeline have to make it to the Med? And, isn’t Libya one of the last five countries whose bank is not under World Bank control? Remember, US pays for most of NATO/UN whether we hand it off to their/foreign control. Bunch of rent-a-cops working pro bono on OpOdysseyDawn– sheesh. Has NATO made opium/oil less expensive for US yet?

Citations. You are absolutely full of it. I’ve noticed a “Byron reality field” that bends facts to accommodate positions. You have never cited a single thing you’ve posted — most of the time, you end up telling me to “look it up”, which, of course, I can’t. Because the sources only exist in your head.

Enough of your nonsense.

Get rid of the Davis-Bacon act and the revolving door between government service and defense contractor executives and we can build a B-2 for $18. 95 plus tax.

No, some incumbents are fiscally sound. It’s these liberals who want to spend, spend, spend with no thoughts about our national security. They just want to give, give, give to anyone that would vote for them.

Yes only the liberals. You must have forgot about the 14 trillion Bush wasted. I guess he was liberal too. Please take a step back and THINK before making judgements. And turn off the sound bites you are obviously repeating comments you have no idea about.

Hope is gone, the $$ went to the 4threich/nwo: see http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011–04-01/foreign–
… paid out in drafts that the borrowers said were worthless (couldn’t be traded in the open market), so when the FED says it made a profit — $..10 on a $1.00 was “profit” (beats nothing, right?).

having 300 bombers in the paper and only one hundred who was operational, that’s just in paper.
100 plane totally operational was suffisant

Why can’t the air force generals let the industry design the plane for maximum return on investment and operational credibility. They designed the F16 which lost 40+ craft before their flaws were found. The industry designed the F20 Tiger for 1/10th the cost and no fighters lost. Coul;d some egos be brought inder control? Let the pros design and build. Left the troops decide on the best equipment


Must every day be April Fool’s day?

I think a new bomber would have a role to play both in high intensity warfare and an operation akin to Libya. It is a good investment, but the fact is that we do not even need it until the 2020s. It is a good deterrent, but we are simply not going to have an interstate war with anybody.

Have’nt I seen this design before? What’s new about it? How effective was it? What is the difference with other designs already been built? Will it defend our country (USA) against rougue nations if we were attack?

Drones,drones & more drones is the answer! Another President will not do anything different that’s already occuring in “Nebucaneser Land”. Let’s get ready for not only for the near future, but for our gandchildren’s children!!

Ummm, Im no partisan however in the interest of truth and facts the defecit has grown far more under the Obama administration than any other. Only a socialist would view tax cuts as adding to the defecit.

Byron Skinner is correct again. We do look like idiots to the whole world every time Obama, Hillary and Bob open their mouths and say moronic things that they have to either take back or deny having said it or explain that the real meaning was.….?

It reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon where a man sitting alone at a huge bar tells the bartender, “You want to know the secret of my success? I surround myself with really great people.” However, being CINC is a responsibility Obama sought and the buck still stops there.

Good Morning Folks,

Hi ffb. No I wasn’t referring to you remark on the downing of a second F-15E. This item of speculation has been seen in French and Italian media all week and I posed my statement as a question. Which by the way has not been answered to in either in the affirmative or in denial.

For all the apologists for our Admirals and Generals. I don’t think it unreasonable for the American people to expect that routine military engagements like Libya should not be quickly taken care of. What the US is currently engaged in with Libya is now a typical military action, and will be for some time now we must learn how to go in, get our business done, and get out with out much fuss.

The Pentagon has failed in the above mission. Our Flag officers to the man or woman is far more interested in being sales personal for the military industrial complex then fighting America’s wars. So far national command authority and any evidence of mission planning, operational goals or how to exit this engagement.

One again our military seems content to send in planes at 10,000 feet and higher drop weapons and call it an air strike. Our AIr Force and Navy are making Colonel Gadhafi look like the new Alexander the Great.

It is no secret that Syria is on the brink, note the new Egyptian security chief visited Syria this week, why?

Our Director of National Intelligence doesn’t know, but at Friday Mosque in Newark they seem to. General Clapper’s idea of collection intelligence must be examined, he is totally clueless.

Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia what our our war planners doing about these countries that will fall to the Islamic revolution?

They certainly were not concerned about this last week as they were all giving testimony before congress why we need another $ trillion + in weapons to fight as yet non existent foes when they can handle these minor sand box problems.

The US deserves an intelligence agency and military that are not operating blind, deaf, dumb and stupid. So far we don have any.

Byron Skinner

JDAMs are effective from high altitudes and at such altitudes you don’t need to worry about MANPADS. What is the problem here? What do you expect to be happening there?

All of the branches are performing as well as expected when you consider we still have little idea of what we are trying to do in Libya. Do we really want these rebels to win?

Exit the engagement? Easy, we sail and fly in the other direction when we want to stop flying in circles over there. The only problems with exiting come from the political aspect of all of this being managed by Obama and co.

Your rantings simply are making no sense Byron. The no-fly zone is already in place and we’ve been bombing some of their tanks and such while not knowing if these rebels are going to be an improvement over Gaddafi.

Exactly, I didn´t want to paint the picture too dark and tried to offer more optimistic variant with the “knowns unknowns:-)”. Somewhere ahead lies big whacking for the US, you can only hope there will be time to learn something from the lesson. It is the same strain or mental decay that started with back in early nineties, the cycle only accelerates and generates more imbecile proposals.

You are right on the money. General Dynamics did everything to kill the F-20 Tigershark, not to threaten much more expensive F-16 and its export potential. Northrop always built the best planes, but in politics the fat cats like Boeing, GD or LM won.

The question is: who really are those rebels? Are they not islamists?

Build all the new bombers and fighters you want. Unless you build a new tanker in sufficient quantities to get them to the fight w/o stopping for gas you may as well keep ‘em parked on your ramps.

Although there is some valid points in all the comments, I think it is time to take a break. The issues won’t go away and getting our blood pressure over red line limits — well .….….…but flying B2’s half way around the world to make a political point is just nuts. And add the F22 — if they were used — is a real head shaker. A political statement by the USAF. Maybe the contractors are paying the bill. The bomber is a dead issue for decades down the road. Oh and by the way only the tankers are flying anymore!!!!!!.

“It is quite apparent that the air offense went in with out even the most basic of intelligence and planning and just dropped ordinance and prayed something was hit”

Do you have anything to back up this ridiculous claim? So all those laser designators were just pointed at random spots on the ground, and all those GPS coordinates for the JDAMs were made up? You’re so full of it, even more than you usually are, Byron Skinner.

Byron Skinner knee jerks to bashing air power in all forms (except for drones) at EVERY opportunity. While he occasionally raises some decent points about the necessity to spend so much money on the most overpowered air forces in the world, he frequently goes over the top and stoops to making things up to boost his case. This post of his is the absolute worst I’ve ever seen from him.

“To open this bombing campaign three B-2 with 45 2000# process of ordinance made a strike but it appears they did nothing more the put 45 big divit’s in the Libyan Desert. This last weekend two Bones dropped 100 bombs and according to “official sources” hit “nearly” 100 targets, what targets?”

As of right now, the second most recent post on the Defense Tech blog (which Byron has also posted at in the past) shows multiple pictures of wrecked Libyan airbases. Byron’s outright lying here. Really, 45 JDAMs from the B-2s did nothing but land in the empty desert? REALLY? Even the most ardent Air Force hater shouldn’t be THIS extreme.

“The problem must be solved. Where are the air planners, the air taskers and the people who can make these strike productive. Where are the pilots/air crews who can drop a GBU or JADAM II with an accuracy of 5 meters and put it on target.”

Now Byron goes beyond his usual bashing of budgeting and aircraft acquisition. Without a shred of proof, Byron denigrates the competency of not only our military pilots, but the guys on the ground supporting them! This is beyond pathetic.

“Sources in Europe are saying a second F-15E has been downed, it that true?”

WHAT sources? I haven’t seen any mention of a second F-15E crash at all on any news source. More make believe from Byron.

Byron talking more nonsense about our military forces:

“One again our military seems content to send in planes at 10,000 feet and higher drop weapons and call it an air strike.”

JDAMs and LGBs are effective from such altitudes, which also allow our aircraft to evade most low-end air defenses.

“Our AIr Force and Navy are making Colonel Gadhafi look like the new Alexander the Great.”

Oh man, this just made my day. The US Military, the best in the world, is incompetent, but Colonel Ghadafi is “the new Alexander the Great.” Yeah, he’s so “Great” that his air force has been wiped out in the span of a week, members of his inner circle are defecting, and his own sons are offering to boot him from office.

Byron, do us all a favor and shut your mouth. At the very least, you’d keep from embarassing yourself.

In earlier posts Byron said the airstrikes have hit nothing and have been a total failure, with no evidence mind you. Now check these pictures from Defensetech​.org.

Just what we need at this point yet another useless, Must be Air Conditioned Bombers, that must be chilled, not stirred prior to flight. Oh by the way, since there just happens to be limited number of facilities with this proper A/C in the world, the B2 must fly all the way around the world and back on each mission. An F-117 incarnated (BTW: The F-117 was retired in 2008) what a waste of Gas and Funding… at the cost of 12 Trillion. A standoff weapon and Napalm could be just as effective and less costly. We do not need any additional Manned Aircraft. We have the capability to use Global Hawk or BAMS, integrate EW a TOW Decoy and SPJ package in addition to a few pylons with a several 5000LB Penetrators, this combination would establish ground movement for any army. Go Integrators, GO Wall Street!!! Yet again we purchase a useless Platform



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