Ground Vehicle Cash At Risk With Flattening Budgets

Ground Vehicle Cash At Risk With Flattening Budgets

One of the Army’s top budget officers today warned of coming friction between Army personnel costs and procurement with the deck stacked against investment spending, as defense budget cuts are unveiled in the coming years.

The simple size of Army personnel accounts means that any move to shrink defense spending “puts a lot of pressure on force structure,” said Lt. Gen. Edgar Stanton, military deputy for budget in the office of the Assistant secretary of the Army, during an AUSA-sponsored breakfast. However, achieving any real savings in this area would require very large cuts in manpower, something like 10,000 soldiers for every billion dollars saved, according to the general.

This means that Army investment accounts will likely be at risk if budgets continue to flatten or even shrink as the war in Afghanistan winds down and OCO accounts are forced into the baseline budget.


“That causes you to look very carefully at the Ground Combat Vehicle, Joint Light Tactical Vehicle” and Army trucks, said Stanton to a room full of defense industry representatives. He added that budget officials are analyzing the service’s modernization portfolio “program by program” and weighing the levels of risk involved in any programmatic cuts.

Both the GCV and JLTV make sense as prime targets for budget trimmers, according to Lexington Institute analyst Loren Thompson.

Thompson predicts the newly re-started GCV program could balloon into something like the Marines’ recently cancelled Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle; the super-swimmer tractor that took decades to develop and was mired in cost growth.

The new GCV “has a projected production cost of $10 million per vehicle, which is much more than any armored system in the existing inventory costs for a relatively modest gain in functionality,” said Thompson. “The real cost of GCV will end up being similar to that of the Marine Corps Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle, which was canceled mainly due to high unit costs.”

Keep in mind that the original GCV program was scrapped so that the Army could buy an achievable, affordable, and timely infantry fighting vehicle.

Army officials want the new GCV to be able to fight effectively in a host of combat scenarios, from high-end armored fights to low-intensity insurgencies and weapons that can do this much tend to cost a lot.

The JLTV, which GAO predicts will cost $354,000 apiece before GFE is added, is another high-cost vehicle that makes an easy target, said the analyst. “That’s just way too high for a Humvee replacement, and saddles the Army with a $50 billion bill to replace only a fraction of its light trucks,” said Thompson.

He went on to say that the future of Army vehicles lies in “upgrading what the service already owns, because it hasn’t learned how to buy new vehicles at affordable prices.”

 

 

 

 

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It looks like a upgraded Bradly IFV so why not just do what General Casey says and upgrade the M-2 Bradly? we don’t really need new IFV since the Bradly can out do any Russian or Chinese design.

Whoa — an officer utilizing common sence and going against the grain. I bet they make him sit in the corner or against the wall during staff meetings and never invite him to socials. I say good for him, and sitting with his back to the wall is a good ideal so they cant sneek in an remove his spine as is cutomary for going above O5 in order to install the congressional/contractor puppet string upgrade kit.

Sell it to allied developing countries to generate funds.

Loren Thompson is making a call to arms that is getting increasingly loud. The contractors need to make sure that a bigger part of the pie is spent on them and less on the war-fighter. There is no reason in their minds why this cant go hand in hand with delivering less for every DoD dollar spent but it looks bad.

What Thompson is saying is they need to buy more congressmen.

The main reasons the EFV cost so much was because of it’s high speed swimming capability that took decades to develop. It also required a very powerful engine. Unless Army leadership goes insane, they won’t be expecting the GCV to swim at all.

Maybe the Army should decide more precisely what they want from their next IFV first if they are so worried about costs.

Right on, bro. I love the Bradley. Its a proven design with few problems. We do not need an F-22 on the ground which is what this is. We need a proven, reliable design to update. Also, more Strykers. Those should have be sent to Iraq in more numbers. Instead of the MRAPS. MRATS are good for convoy escort and thats all.

Or maybe they should just upgrade there 5000 or so hulls. I mean seriously how high of a priority could this project be? BAE already has a td with an unmanned torrent that seats 9, which is one more then the puma has the fuel on the outside of the vehicle, an upgraded 800HP engine, upgraded belly armor, ect. They have updated the armor package and main weapon. They even made a family of vehicles out of it. What is the gcv going to give us that is worth dumping the money into, that an upgraded bradley can’t? Just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s not useful. By this logic we should be replacing the much older 60’s era chinooks with something newer. If you could update a helicopter, then you can darn sure update a ifv.

I can tell you how to save Billions of dollars a year and solve any military budget problems. Have congress put a one hundred percent STOP to ALL Foreign Aid! That would help the military AND help pay down our beyond enormous deficit.

Such an update to the Bradley would be a major improvement, but we should probably start doing design studies and work for a future vehicle anyway. There are some things you can’t improve very much unless you start with a clean sheet of paper.

I’ve seen the demonstrator you mention but how extensive is the upgrade? Beyond a certain point a new design may be a better choice, but I don’t have the details.

Either way such a Bradley upgrade deserves serious consideration from the Army. We built a lot of them over the years.

To the poster Mr. William C.

You wrote: “Unless Army leadership goes insane, they won’t be expecting the GCV to swim at all.”

NOT quite … but the G.C.V.‘s latest two specifications demand that it be helicopter-borne and fully submersible, too, for stealthy approaches against defended beaches.

This sole source contract will go to Lockheed Martin, of course (anything else would be completely unconstitutional as well as proof of E.A.D.S.’ market-distorting subsidies).

Anyway, thanks to its F-$$ experiment Lockheed Martin already acquired some invaluable know-how about airborne tanks.

Here is a list of Bradley variants: Command Vehicle, Anti-Aircraft, Motar Track, Ambulance, along with different types of turrets. The Bradley chassis is the most versatile tracked vehicle in the Army’s inventory.
The mods (modifications) that can be done to the Bradley is limitless. I bet you could even chop the hull to fit
an Advance Gun System. Thats if BAE people of vision direct the Combat System Division instead of number crunchers whose vision is purely guided by numbers on an excel flow chart. Perhaps my statement could be verified by all the new contracts BAE USCS has received.

Do you have any idea how much we spend of foreign aid in comparison to everything else? Its not that much.

We can have common vehicle fleet now instead of later. You get an increase in safety, capacity, and situational awareness, how much more is it going to cost to make new build vehicles where it is worth it. With reactive armor and upgraded mine protection what is the difference? In the family of fighting vehicles they even adjusted the height. Waste of money, to buy new vehicles like someone else said, they will dust anyone we come in contact with. Make a light tank out of it too while your at it something like the stryker mgs but on a bradley torrent.

They tested electric armor and electric drive on it too.

The Israeli Namer is state of the art, they should just build those.

First of all we need to arrive on a conclusion on how to fund the budget for this programs. Second, if we were to design ground tanks for defense it should be fashionable, sellable and competative from Israelis, Russian, France, German and Chinese tanks. Forth we need to find ways to sell this to our allies for thier defense and ours to generate funds for the country’s mass production of the new design built future tanks.

It is far more than what our military gets — UN & NATO funds come out of the defense budget (we provide 78% funding of both all the other countries make up the difference) — then there are military and economic aid from the white house — an international developement aid — Us dept of ag — mulitlateral organizations all paid out yearly to over a hundred countries, then on top of that there are the billions in humanitatarian aid paid out (we pay more for other countries floods than we do for our own). NOPE ALL THIS FOREIGN GIVEAWAY NEEDS TO STOP PERIOD.

So all those figures from 2002–2010 saying that foreign aid is approximately one percent of the federal budget are wrong?

That operational costs of Iraq in 2005 wasn’t $4.5 billion a month, key word being operational?

If that 4.5 billion figure is right, then imagine what it takes to operate the entire military, everyday.

The Namer would take care of the force protection req for sure I would imagine. Kind of a pig to move around though. Although that consideration doesn’t seem to be in their big four top reqs, so maybe weight isn’t the concern.

Kind of makes me wonder with the Abrams people launching their push to keep the M1 line open that they should take a queue from the Namer and offer up a M1 chasis version for the GCV. Should meet the force protection, upgrade, and time frame reqs easy.

You want to sell it to other countries?

To do that just make sure it DOES NOT have a jet engine powering it, the Abrams is a great tank, but it sucks up far too much juice to make it viable for most countries to even consider.

By the way, I’m an Aussie & we use the Abrams.

You clearly haven’t seen the GCV specifications because neither of those are requirements.

The Bradley is topped out for growth because of IED armor. It’s time for a new vehicle.

The Namer people could have proposed on GCV, but they didn’t. Either their vehicle isn’t all that or they can’t produce them affordably. The Namer is strictly a troop carrier, not a fighting vehicle.

Give the Army and Marine Corps all the support and tools they need. Cancel JSF, NGB, F-22 and NGB both the Army and Marine Corps could not only have the equipment they need they would also be able to save lives by having all the armor integrated onboard their platforms to save lives. It is always good to have a vehicle that can swim a river verses going over the river.

However, the Senior Leadership at the Pentagon would rather manufacture overpriced Dead Stealth Aircraft that can be shot down by a S-400 SA-21 capable of destroying stealth aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles with an effective range of up to 3,500 kilometers (2,200 miles) and a speed of up to 4.8 kilometers (3 miles) per second.

The folks that state this Army Platform is to expensive work for Lockheed Martin. So which is the bigger Target.

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