Home » Air » A Little More Info on the Raptor and Libya

A Little More Info on the Raptor and Libya

By John Reed Thursday, April 7th, 2011 3:21 pm
Posted in Air, International, Policy

Air Force Secretary Michael Donley this week shed a tiny bit more light on the whole mystery surrounding the lack of an appearance by the F-22 Raptor in the skies above Libya during Operation Odyssey Dawn, saying the plane would have been used if it was needed.

Donley told a reporter at a Tuesday morning breakfast in Washington that the plane would have flown in Libya if its capabilities were viewed as a requirement for the operation. When pressed for more on what capabilities were needed, he waited a few seconds before saying, “multirole, maybe?”

This makes a lot of sense given the fact that the Libyan op turned into an air-to-ground fight pretty fast and the F-22 is optimized for high-end air-to-air combat.

This comes about a week after Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told lawmakers that the F-22 was left out of Libya due to the fact that it was based too far from the operation compared to older fighters that were already based in Europe.

Former Air Force ISR chief Lt. Gen. David Deptula wasn’t buying that explanation and offered his own take here.

Join the Conversation

	Byron Skinner April 7th, 2011 at 3:51 pm Good Afternoon Folks, Lets see three weeks, three excuses for the no show of the F-22 in Libya. Lets review, week one. Communications problems with NATO aircraft and needed a Global Hawk in the air to communicate with US forces and each other. OK Week Two. Only deployed only in the CONUS, no infrastructure in NATO for the F-22. This of course ignores the deployment of the Navy’s E/F-18G Growler which effectively shut down the Libyan Air Defense System, note there is no reported firings of a single ADM so far in the Libyan air war. Now week three, well we would have sent it, if was needed, but really not as a multi-role fighter. Lets see the NATO altitude for ground attack in Libya is 15,000 feet, it see all that is required is a bomb truck. Our smart weapons at that altitude are not very. The higher you release a weapon the greater the CPE. At 15,000 ft. the JADAM II with a 2.5 meter CPE goes into being measured by Zip Codes. The 45 2000 lb. bombs release by the B-2’s (at classified altitudes) missed their targets by so much that when it rains a couple of times in Libya the country will have it’s own lake district, for future Islamic Poets. At 15,000 ft. lasers no longer work, moisture in the air deflects the light, and JADAMS II’s go back to being plane old dumb bombs with a $50,000.00 kit on them. So I guess the F-22 with two bomb bays wouldn’t be all that effective. Which begs the question, just what can the F-22 do for the US air efforts that need doing now that is not being done by an existing platform and done a lot cheaper? Just a bunch of cr** in trying ti justify a major procurement screw up. Anyone knows what happened to the Stryker Mobile Gun Unit, you remember the auto loading 105mm canon on a wheeled Stryker that was to be a “Game Changer”? The current Game Changer is the XM-25. With over 69lbs. of recoil, the M-4A4 has about 3 lbs. the M014 about 16 lbs. and the WW II M-1 19 lbs of recoil. Is just more then the GI can handle. Also there are accuracy problems, to small of a blast radius, problems with how log it takes for the optical sights to find and fix a target and no build in 5.56 mm weapon for self defense of the operator, which mean the XM-25 gunner has to carry two weapons or an additional 9 lbs., to a ground pounder that a lot of extra weight. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	STemplar April 7th, 2011 at 3:51 pm This would have been good to hear like 2 weeks ago. The USAF brass did a pretty poor job of handling this issue, to say nothing of not predicting it.
	Drake1 April 7th, 2011 at 4:01 pm Who cares anymore?
	momomimamo April 7th, 2011 at 4:17 pm we have see in libya one excellent aircraft, who was enter in libya with all defense system and libyan planes (yes not recent), he have make and have bomb target at the ground, that’s the french rafale. All US airplanes have waiting the tomahawk bombing, and in all time they don’t will move because libya have SAM systems Some f-22 was suffisant for destroy libyan plane, he was furtive or no? no one time that was really confirmed, this plane was one joke, just one propaganda of US superiority.And now we see the f-22 receive some f-35 furtive “paint”, why? furtiv fighter jet was one big joke, one f-15 silent or one rafale was largely suffisant and they have the technology for catch one “furtive“jet… BIG JOKE nothing more
	EJ Remmington April 7th, 2011 at 4:35 pm Wake UP!!! F-22 is DEAD!!!!! Stealth is DEAD!!!! Thank you “General” (I am Worthless” Merrill Anthony “Tony”) McPeak and of course Admiral “We must have 1000 additional 19knt Afterburning Ships, so to stop the madness I am now the Chairman of the JCS” Mullins, and of course the Prime “Give me additional Funds at 15% Profit after cost” Integrators for totally SCREWING Up the Air Force and Navy with your “Let put everything into Stealth”!!! Your Legacy Continues!!!!! What ever happened to General’s with courage??? For instance, Curtis LaMay, and others that had Leadership Skills and Common Sense!!!! The Folks we have in these positions now are Ass Kissers and leaches to the Integrators!!!! They cannot make a decision in regards to anything, in fact you cannot touch a F-22, F-16, without contacting Lockheed for Permission!!! The Military Has turned into a Political Machine instead of a “Department of War” that when the Secretary Shows up people listen… We have to be Politically Correct!!! Go Politics, Go Wall Street!!! Let’s purchase another useless bomber!! What the Hell is wrong with the B-52H???? We can hit all the Grass Huts and Camel Depots from Miles out??
	C W "Trigger" Miller April 7th, 2011 at 4:50 pm We all fully know now why they Took the “A” off the F/A-22 as orginally intended.… It cannot attack anything, it is now an A/A Specialist against High Value Enemy Fighters that now see the F-22 coming with their new APG-79 type radar and IR type sensors, that is also utlized on the SA-21 GROWLER / S400 Triumph Long Range TABM/SAM and ships. We will see the F-22 platfroms at the front gate shortly!!! PS.… 20 Years and no Connectivity, you have to love that.!
	@E_L_P April 7th, 2011 at 5:01 pm Byron, come back to us when you actually understand how the JDAM works. You do not. “Our smart weapons at that altitude are not very. The higher you release a weapon the greater the CPE. At 15,000 ft. the JADAM II with a 2.5 meter CPE goes into being measured by Zip Codes. ” 1. JDAM is an INS weapon kit that just happens to use GPS as a back up. 2. The dropping aircraft first has to have a good INS fix. 3. Some aircraft (B-1, B-2 and others) use a radar fix or an off-set radar fix when dropping the JDAM. This gets CEP down to 2–3 meters–or less. 4. Flight time is around a minute or less for this weapon. Your zip code and altitude theory is flat-out wrong. JDAM has been dropped from 40k, 30k, 20k, whatever and the CEP stays about the same.
	@E_L_P April 7th, 2011 at 5:07 pm Not good to depend on Schwartz and Donley. These are the guys that fib in front of Congress stating the F-35 is critical to national defense. Again for some needing a ride on the clue-train about the F-22. When you actually have one about how the F-22, and the AN/ALR-94 actually work, maybe you will start to understand things. The JDAM equipped F-22 would have been find for fixed and known very long range SA-5 sites. These are not mobile sites. Ditto with some of the low band radar. This is what you use to take down threats early in a war. The F-22 and the F-35 are both multi-role aircraft. One is primarily air-to-air and the other is primarily air-to-ground. Well, assuming the F-35, with only 4 percent flight testing done and a cost that is more than the F-22, ever gets fielded properly. Donley and Schwartz were wrong about that too, but hey, media sources still quote them as if they know something.
	@Earlydawn April 7th, 2011 at 6:10 pm So I guess all those pictures of toasted Libyan buildings and vehicles were propaganda, right? Why would U.S. use laser-guided weapons against fixed positions instead of GPS-guided? The position of the targets is a known value. Your statement is illogical. Eagerly awaiting a reply with citations, Earlydawn
	@Earlydawn April 7th, 2011 at 6:13 pm Haven’t you heard? Byron makes stuff up as he goes. He will be completely unable to provide ANY citation regarding the type of weapons actually dropped against ground targets. As you said, why would you drop laser-guided munitions which require a painter on the ground or a relatively stable airborne designator, when you can drop INS/GPS bombs on known navigational coordinates? Byron is a con artist.
	Tonka April 7th, 2011 at 6:34 pm Byron — @E_L_P is exactly right regarding the JDAM. The JDAM is an INS weapon with GPS aiding and the higher the altitude, the more time the GPS has the opportunity to lock on making CEP (not CPE) smaller. If the JDAM were only a ballistic weapon then your theory might hold some water, but even the oldest aircraft in our inventory can deliver ballistic weapons with a fair amount of accuracy – in the 10s of meters. Additionally, laser designators do not have problems with absorption at those altitudes. They operate fine on clear days … you might want to check your data before making some of these radical statements. As for EJ Remmington’s comment regarding stealth is dead … stealth is very much still alive. However, a better argument might be that we can no longer rely on stealth technology alone, as was proven in the air war over Kosovo. That is why stealth is merely one tool in the toolbag of airpower tricks. This is pure speculation, but has anyone considered the possibility that the reason the F-22 wasn’t used is because the risks outweighed the benefits? What I mean is that the F-22 still has some very sensitive technologies on board and that there was no compelling reason (other than a political statement) to use the F-22 in the operations in Libya when all of the other aircraft in the inventory can accomplish the job without incident. That is with the exception of the F-15 that had an unforeseen aircraft malfunction. A person in their right mind would only use the F-22 when absolutely needed and wouldn’t risk showing any potential adversary the true capabilities of the F-22. This hypothesis finds itself inline with some of Lt Gen Deptula’s comments regarding the F-22 being overkill for the mission in Libya. That said, although there may have been some political benefits of using the F-22 in Libya, like quieting some of the skeptics in congress or those in this column. That is no reason to show the cards up the USAF’s sleeves.
	C W "Trigger" Miller April 7th, 2011 at 6:57 pm Deptula and Schwartz need to find a new Job at Lockheed Martin. They are both a complete waste as Air Force General’s. The DOD is not looking for Leaders; they are looking and currently have Politically Correct Nightmares. They allow the Integrators to Drive the Battlespace. Another reason why they TOOK THE “A” away from the F/A-22 as originally designed. The SA-21 GROWLER / S400 Triumph Long Range TABM/SAM along with the IR and Radar data currently integrated on the new and old advisors platforms fully exploits the F-22 from the Augmenter to the Inlet. They have had 12 Years to exploit Stealth Technology and they have. The “Generals”, (I am sorry, Integrator “Talking Heads”) are blowing Smoke up Congress’s A&&. JSF by the way is in the same “Boat” (Bring another thousand), only worse, they are continue to manufacture this none conductive, pylon hanging worthless piece of garbage.
	William C. April 7th, 2011 at 7:03 pm What is with all of the people lacking basic English skills these days? I won’t even comment on the nonsensical content of this post. Afterburning ships?
	C W "Trigger" Miller April 7th, 2011 at 7:09 pm The EA-18G has not been deployed yet.…LOL… It is still in Test. BTW: This platform is the only serious manned platform that has a path into a TST. JSF and F-22 do not have this capability. The Air Force and General” (I am Worthless” Merrill Anthony “Tony”) McPeak decided during his tenure that we did not need the E/F-111 or the B-52 SPJ Platform. He decided in his infinite wisdom, (including screw up the Air Force Uniform for a while), made the decision that Stealth was the way to GOOO!!! YEEHAAW! Now the Navy has to escort Air Force Platforms into High Threat Targets with the EA-6B or in the Future EA-18G. Either way the Air Force now lives in a Fantasy land. All our adversities have had over 12 years to exploit Stealth and they have completely. We can continue the fantasy here in the US; however, the Australians RAAF see the light. They are purchasing EA-18G for this very reason.
	William C. April 7th, 2011 at 7:11 pm Hey Byron does the Libyan ministry of propaganda pay good? I might need a new job one of these days. It has already been covered but the accuracy of the JDAM isn’t effected by altitude. The Stryker MGS was never a “game changer” but it is in service and proving useful fire support. The XM25 has some kick to it but I rather doubt it has 69 lbs of felt recoil. Meanwhile why should we bother flying our F-22As in circles over Libya? It would be wasting hours on the airframe and nothing else.
	@Earlydawn April 7th, 2011 at 7:18 pm The F-22 over Libya would be: - Overspecialized. – Unecessarily expensive. – Politically risky. (Iran) – Strategically wasteful. (Hours on airframe, freak loss, espionage) – Far away / Hard to base. The question should be why we would deploy the F-22 in Libya.
	William C. April 7th, 2011 at 7:19 pm Are you the same person as EJ Remmington? You sound a like and you’re claims are pretty nonsensical too. The F/A-22 designation was an effort to better advertise the aircraft’s ground attack capabilities to politicians too busy wasting money on pet projects to buy the number of F-22s we need to replace the F-15. There is a story behind the designation of the F/A-18. Orginally there was to be two variants, the F-18 and A-18, yet technological improvements allowed one variant to have the features of both. Rather than just calling it the F-18 (or A-18) the Navy went with the F/A designation in order not to piss off either the fighter or attack pilot community that was still rather separate at that time. Although technically the definition should probably have been A/F-18.
	Charlie April 7th, 2011 at 7:40 pm The EA-18 Growler is on its first deployment Mr. Miller. You should bring yourself up to date. That is not to say that the airplane doesn’t have a few issues but it is out of test. In electronic warfare everyday is a test to keep up to date. Was in the community for a long time — in fact when the EF111 came out and the USAF came to Whidbey for an assist in operational uses. As for the EA6B — USAF crews are integrated within the Navy Command structure and fly the EA6B out of Whidbey Island. Pay a visit and you will be blue all over the place. As to why the USAF went in that direction — well I guess it is all about being purple. McPeak wasn’t the sharpest person around ecept with his ego. And it ws something to behold!!!!
	arias April 7th, 2011 at 7:46 pm The question we should be asking is why the f*** did this country waste the money on an aircraft they are not going to use, can’t communicate with other platforms or even deploy to Afghanistan. This is possibly the worst waste of tax payer money. It’s like buying your kid a brand new toy and then throwing it away. We really need to get all these f*cking idiots out of capitol hill and get some people in who don’t have their head up their ass and actually do something other then when election time comes around.
	arias April 7th, 2011 at 7:51 pm Why would putting hours on the airframes even matter at this point. Most of these aircraft probably have less then 10 hrs on the frame anyways. An aircraft is made to fly not be a hangar queen its entire life.
	arias April 7th, 2011 at 7:59 pm Prowlers all the way.
	Byron Skinner April 7th, 2011 at 8:17 pm Good Afternoon Folks, First the US’s AO was in the central area of the coastal region that doesn’t include Tripoli. If any of you bothered to notice that the video of all this is very suspect. Some of it appears to be recycled from Afghanistan and when there is what is clearly a Libyan shot it is most often a single vehicle and I at least have see nor heard of any building damaged or destroyed by the Americans. All of the reported structural damage has been done by French and other NATO aircraft. Last weekend a US raid killed 13 rebel fighters. The aircraft, believed to be an F-16 was operations at 15,000 ft. plus above cloud cover. The pilot had no visual, not FAC on the ground and was operating off pre-assigned target coordinates. This is not air support but blind bombing. I would suggest that some of you actually go to the ‚mil site and look up stuff but, naw then you might be able to give a reasonably good argument rather then you personal attacks, so just stay stupid and keep attacking. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	William C. April 7th, 2011 at 8:44 pm Here you go Byron, some smoking craters where buildings used to be for you. http://defensetech.org/2011/04/02/got-some-before…
	andrew lubin April 7th, 2011 at 10:00 pm The structural damage as well as ripping up a lot of Qadaffi equipment in Benghazi / Adjibiya(sp) was done by Marine Harriers off the Kearsarge. But they fly low, and actually see what they shoot.
	STemplar April 7th, 2011 at 11:57 pm The F22 isn’t needed in Libya, however, the people at Langley were doing prep work for deployment. I remember that story, so clearly they thought they might be relevant and possibly deployed. So the notion that it was too far away is BS. The problem there is that was testimony a military officer gave to Congress. That matters. It wasn’t true. Now given the ad hoc come as you are party this was, clearly the NCA didn’t give the military much heads up. So we went with what we more or less had in theater. Nothing wrong with that, of course other than it isn’t accomplishing the stated goal which is to get rid of Qaddafi. Gen Ham today said it is very unlikely the rebels can topple Qaddafi and even raised the notion of ground forces of some nation being required. Beyond Libya though, obviously the whole of the middle east is sort of up in the air. We don’t know what government, if any, could be next. It looks like Yemen is most likely, but things are very unstable in Syria. Given that we don’t know and on top of that, we don’t know how Iran or Syria might react, how this might affect Israel, and clearly have no idea how this all plays out, it seems pretty obvious to this layman that the USAs alleged premier air dominance fighter should at least be deployed in the region just in case. I doubt the skies over Virginia will be compromised.
	C W "Trigger" Miller April 8th, 2011 at 12:08 am I agree… thought they were still in test at Whidbey Island and had not yet been deployed. My mistake. However, the Air Force should have their own platform for EW or purchase their own EA-18G’s in the future. The Air Force keeps their EWO Officers up to date thanks to the Navy. However, under the current conditions both the Air Force and Navy should jointly develop EA capabilities moving forward. The Air Force’s answer to all issues is stealth, until you dig into the current threats. Once digging begins they discover the Air Force needs EA and EW Support, thus the Growler. They also need a EW/EA Fighter Type Platform. However, they would rather continue to drop funds in the bottom-less pit of purchasing platforms such as the JSF and F-22 that are now Targets. Maybe they will purchase our old EA-6B. We could call it FMS…LOL… I knew Merrill myself. He was a waste of humanity. General Creech, Fogelman and Russ were the Best in the Business at “Killing People and Breaking Thinks”!!!
	@Earlydawn April 8th, 2011 at 12:20 am So you’re backing off of the JDAM nonsense?
	Tritium April 8th, 2011 at 12:58 am Byron, for someone posting on a Defense News/Technologies website, you are remarkably ignorant of how USAF weapons systems operate, particularly the JDAM system. You might consider doing a little studying/research before you make completely false statements…as you are just embarrasing yourself. And if you are not, I am embarassed for you.
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 1:57 am The F-22 will never be flown in combat, we have had 3 wars and usually systems are rushed in to at least put them through their paces. But the F-22 have never flown anywhere near them. And it never will. There is a good reason for this. Despite all the rhetoric and marketing spin the F-22 is fleet of prototypes for a failed design.
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 2:00 am No need to be embarrassed — except for yourself. Your lack of understanding of dual mode operation when you have no targeting teams on the ground says it all.
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 2:01 am When the paid shills for Lockheed accuse people of propaganda you just have to laugh.
	John April 8th, 2011 at 2:15 am Thank you for providing some rational thought to this “discussion”. Darn you and your logic and facts!
	John April 8th, 2011 at 2:41 am Good God people. The F-22 is real and here so get over it. Are you going to wait for all the F-15s to break in half? Or maybe we can just keep adding pounds on the F-16? I mean what’s the point of all this hatred towards the 22 and 35? It’s not a blue marble that you take to your friend’s house to show that you have a blue marble. And in 10 years when there is some other threat more sophisticated you will be the same people complaining that we have no plan to address it? These are enormously complicated weapons that happen to fly. Its a miracle they work at all.
	Curt April 8th, 2011 at 3:09 am Lets see, beside the really lousy PR from the USAF brass and the idiocy of most extreme F-22 advocates (on both sides), lets look realistically. A F-15E that was already in theater could carry AMRAAM, Sidewinder, A targeting pod, GPS/LGB bombs, and Maverick missiles, All at the same time! The air threat was, shall we say minimal, or would non-existant be better? A F-22 can carry AMRAAM and SDB1 for use against fixed targets and would have to be deployed to the theater. Yeah I know which aircraft I want for the mission of flying around over the front. Those SDBs are going to be awesome against hardened aircraft shelters and tanks! Clearly the F-22 was critical for success. The hundreds of, I mean tens of, OK zero losses to date seem to support that, not!
	Trophy April 8th, 2011 at 3:29 am Anytime Byron is proven wrong, he always moves to a different subject in an attempt to divert attention away from the fact that he is (surprise, surprise) wrong (again).
	momomimamo April 8th, 2011 at 5:53 am yeah, you have learn the f-22 propaganda, that’s good.__But now, why no f-22 in europe? to many enemy in america? canada? mexico? brasil? __why f-22 don’t fly with others foreign aircraft? why foreign aircraft need cut their radars technology when one f-22 was in the sky? he was furtive or no? if he was so excellent, why USDpt stop it?____USA will use it against N.Korea and iran? what is aircraft inventory and technology of these country? 40 years or more old
	momomimamo April 8th, 2011 at 5:53 am Why american don’t understand that was just one big propaganda of power, just for have the better generation? saying he was furtive for give the sentiment to others country, we can be every where and you can’t know that (scary no? propaganda of power no?) Now others country make 5th gen fighters, and now USA envisaged one 6th gen, when we know f-22 and f-35 programs, be happy for the next. I’m sure in 30 years the f-22 was furtive but now that’s over, all technology have evolute, this technology is capable to follow one furtive jet, not the same emission like one f-16, but she can see it Just wait when the f-35 was in service in europe and you know at this moment the reality of the furtive jet, one big propaganda today like the russian or chinese jet. the real question: why the f-22?
	John April 8th, 2011 at 6:49 am Yeah, clearly we need to convert the F-22 for carrier duty so it can take on 3rd rate defensive systems for the country du jour.
	William C. April 8th, 2011 at 6:56 am 1. Since when does the Taliban have an air force or modern SAMs? 2. OIF began before the F-22A had entered service. 3. It’s not needed over Libya. Why deploy our best air-superiority fighter when there is nothing flying for it to shoot down? Other aircraft we have more of can drop JDAMs.
	William C. April 8th, 2011 at 6:59 am Lockheed pays people for this? Sign me up. I would love some money on the side for asking the obvious question of why we deploy the F-22A to a country where it has nothing important to do. Multi-role F-15Es and F-16s are enough and are more versatile in the ground attack role.
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 7:53 am Actually it was the McDonnell Douglas/Northrop YF-17 that was in competition with the GD YF-16 for the Air Forces Lightweight Fighter program. The F-18 came out of that to replace the A-4, A-7, and F-4.
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 8:04 am Attemping to covert an F-22 for carriers would cost way too much time and money, and then everybody and their mother will be pissed because it’s taking too long and taking taxpayers money and blah blah blah.
	James April 8th, 2011 at 8:13 am Bs byron will say anything to defend his man child president. Check his earlier post where he blame the entire military rather than admit this Libya disaster is direct from Barry Obama.
	James April 8th, 2011 at 8:16 am Army Gen. Carter Ham, head of U.S. Africa Command, told a Thursday hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee that the military situation in Libya has developed into a stalemate. Gen. Ham’s assessment may actually be a bit optimistic, as there were reports yesterday of “mass panic” among the rebels near Ajdabiya and their total defeat seems more likely than a decisive victory over Gaddafi’s army.
	HasBeen April 8th, 2011 at 8:52 am I’m pretty sure “John” was being sarcastic. I hope you were joining him although that didn’t seem clear to me.
	William C. April 8th, 2011 at 8:59 am I am well aware of the history of the F/A-18 program and indeed the YF-17 was selected for further development over a variant of the YF-16. However the Navy originally intended to purchase two variants, the A-18 and F-18. These were specialized for their respective roles. Advancements in technology made this unnecessary however and one variant could do both tasks at the flip of a switch. During the time the Navy had separate “attack” and “fighter” communities. So they went with the F/A-18 designation to please both groups of pilot and created the VFA Strike Fighter Squadrons. So the F/A-18 began to replace the remaining A-4s, A-7s, and F-4s. In the late ‘80s the Navy’s plan for their future aircraft included the NATF and A-12 Avenger II. The A-12 had been selected over the upgraded A-6F Intruder. Yet the A-12 was canceled in 1991 and the A-X program was started. When the NATF was canceled the A-X program became A/F-X and included requirements for additional air-to-air capabilities. During the ‘90s the F-14D Super Tomcat faced serious opposition, and the Super Hornet was proposed as a lower cost alternative pending the introduction of the A/F-X. The Super Hornet was selected over proposals derived from the F-14D and a few years later the A/F-X was canceled due to budget issues. Now the F/A-18E and F/A-18F are the main aircraft of USN aviation. Eventually it will be joined by the F-35C and begin to be replaced by the F/A-XX. The Super Hornet is a good aircraft and certainly will serve us well for the foreseeable future. Yet I do believe we will need the F/A-XX by the mid 2020s or so.
	BreakTheCycle April 8th, 2011 at 9:10 am Maybe it was an intentional tactic to have the spotlight diverted off the F-35 program disaster. Give everyone a different red herring to hyperventilate over.
	BOOMER April 8th, 2011 at 9:42 am Info from some buddies in the area say the low flying A10’s have accounted for more dammage to lybian forces than any aircraft or country but of course no one politicaly wants it to get out that the least desired most basic design aircraft in inventory is doing most of the effective work and destruction, AC130 kills are not being reported either. The so called outdated birds of prey that generals say are no longer needed are whooping but over the higher priced toys and no one wants it to be known for fear it will kill thier arguments for more tech and gear.
	Josh April 8th, 2011 at 10:12 am A little early to be drinking so heavily isn’t it, EJ?
	Josh April 8th, 2011 at 10:13 am um, what?
	arias April 8th, 2011 at 10:56 am So your one of those blame everything on Obama kind of guy. I guess I should also blame Obama for your stupidity and ignorance. Go kill yourself.
	sw614 April 8th, 2011 at 11:22 am I wonder if you know how JDAMs actually work. They do NOT need laser guidenace, they use INS with GPS for reference signal so weapons always knows where it is at. JDAMs and SDBs are not LGBs. JDAMs can be dropped in weather without any significant impact on accuracy. What do you base the accuarcy of the B-2 strikes on? I have my doubts about your synopsis. There is plenty of infrastructue in the European theater for F-18 airframes and any comparison to the F-22 is moot. The F-22 is a F-15 A/B/C/D replacement, not a strike acft. As you pointed out, Lybian defenses were rolled back easily mitigating the need for the F-22. The excuse given about communications is just BS since the F-22 performs very well in exercise with US and allies participating. I do not know why the DoD thought we would buy that reason.
	asdf April 8th, 2011 at 11:45 am the only problem is that the rebels are reported to be worthless militarily…
	Josh April 8th, 2011 at 11:55 am Waaaay off the mark as usual Byron. Others have already done an excellent job at, once again, showing how little factual data you post up daily, so I won’t bother.
	@Earlydawn April 8th, 2011 at 12:01 pm Byron Skinner — It’s all in the initials. ;) He’s proof that a long enough post can convince some people of anything.
	William C. April 8th, 2011 at 12:09 pm Long live the A-10. I hope to see an AC-130J someday too.
	Trent April 8th, 2011 at 12:13 pm SEND US USMC IN AND WE’LL DO THE JOB IN A WEEK;)
	Josh April 8th, 2011 at 12:14 pm So… what does this have to do with JDAM accuracy and theory of operation Byron? Nothing. According to your last post I have to assume you’re telling us an F-16 dropped an unguided munition and mistakenly killed 13 rebel fighters due entirely to the inaccuracy of the weapon? I assume you’re talking about the incident outside of Brega. This was mistaken identity of a vehicle column, NOT inaccurate weapons fire. I find your claim of pre-dertermined coordinates on an erratically moving vehicle column of light trucks somewhat dubious, but no more so than most of your claims.
	shawn1999 April 8th, 2011 at 12:56 pm Agreed, let’s not use a highpowered chemical laser to trim our facial hair and show our potential enemies just what our strengths/weaknesses are, as well as give them the opportunity to capture one for further study/use against us (Russians didn’t mind trying to go in covertly to Israel under the guise of being Lebonese, who says they’d be opposed to “loaning” GaDaffy some equipment to drop one of these birds?)
	shawn1999 April 8th, 2011 at 1:00 pm “Yes, why develop this thing that discharges a projectile inaccurately and takes a minute to reload? Our crossbows work just fine“ Last words before the rifle was refined and used to kill the guy that said this.
	shawn1999 April 8th, 2011 at 1:03 pm Is the current mission parameter the replacement of GaDaffy? I lost track, as the “powers that be” seem to change his mind each day.
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 1:05 pm Right on…I was clarifying what Mr. “Viper” so eloquently stated. I think the Super Tomcat and Attack Super Tomcat would have done just as well as the Super Hornet if they went in that direction instead.
	shawn1999 April 8th, 2011 at 1:18 pm Well duh. Just like Congress doesn’t want it know that when they finally retire, they get 100% pay for life care of Social Security, and the rest of us Americans get the big screw. I’ve always through that AC-130’s should get lighter, better weapons, radar absorbent materials (if they don’t already) and enhanced optics & targeting equipment to make them more effective regardless of weather (cannot think of a way to have them operate in daylight except if 100% certain all AA weapons nuetralized) and that A-10s should be networked to make them even more effective at the brilliant job they already do. Neutralize the AA and use the 22’s to maintain air superiority, and let the ACs and A-10s wreak holy hell on the enemy. Booyah.
	sw614 April 8th, 2011 at 1:43 pm Gotta agree with ya here, Josh.…um, WHAT??????
	sw614 April 8th, 2011 at 1:49 pm Nothing wrong with the B-52H in the right environment (other than it is 50 years old and parts can be an issue). I would not want to take one into a heavily defended target. Considering how well the bomber force has performed over the last 10 years, your statement about bombers being useless shows how much you do not know. Cotact Lockheed fpor permission? Where in the blazes do you get that? These are not leased acft. Never worked F-22s, but did F-16s and the only time I recall contacting manufacturer was due to a cracked wing that had to be replaced (in the field at Kunsan). But then again any time you have major failure like that you would contact depot or manufacturer. Stealth is a lonnnng way from dead. If this had been Syria or Iran instead of Libya you would have seen the F-22.
	sw614 April 8th, 2011 at 1:52 pm Um, maybe because they are not needed in Europe and we have a limited supply of them? F-22s are based i Alaska, hawaii, and CONUS.
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 1:55 pm To mon ami Byron Skinner ————————————– Part 1 / 7 You wrote: “Last weekend a US raid killed 13 rebel fighters. The aircraft, believed to be an F-16 was operations at 15,000 ft. plus above cloud cover. The pilot had no visual, not FAC on the ground and was operating off pre-assigned target coordinates. This is not air support but blind bombing.” Yesterday the Nazi uh… N.A.T.O. aviation struck several rebel vehicles again, but this time the Stukas had a clear visual: They wasted no ammunition, but they missed none of the rebel vehicles either… (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 1:57 pm Part 2 / 7 The problem was / is Intelligence / intelligence (with a minor “i” = as in I.Q.), which runs so low in this campaign that it actually starts to resemble a remake of the Crimean War (1853–1856) or of Lebanon 2006 or of Afghanistan now: According to this “Yahoo!” article below, it looks as if in the end looney, isolated, besieged, outnumbered, abandoned, unarmed dictator Kaddhaffi will still defeat three nuclear powers + the rest of N.A.T.O. + all other Arab forces + all U.N.O. forces TOGETHER AND SIMULTANEOUSLY !!! “Prospects fade for military overthrow of Gaddafi ” http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110408/wl_nm/us_liby… (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 1:58 pm Part 3 / 7 How does any soldier or mil buff POSSIBLY conceive such a vision: Total defeat and humiliation of the Western and Middle Eastern Hemisphere by Kaddhaffi, as if Kaddhaffi is some reincarnated Rommel? What next? Will someday’s headlines be like ” Panic Of Kaddhaffi’s Counter-Attack Grips Pentagon” ? A few weeks ago all this would still have sounded too non-sensical to be funny (like ~ 20 years ago, when Kaddhaffi threatened to invade the Netherlands), but now, in this present conflict, I’m REALLY NOT so sure anymore how to place my bets… I guess it’s true what they say: It’s much, much easier to defend than to attack… (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 1:58 pm Part 4 / 7 But with such a disproportion of forces, too? Did the U.S. brass stand too close to a F-$$ , or what else turned them into such resounding, epic, FAT FAILURES ??? Modern U.S. American generals — EVEN MUSSOLINI WOULD FEEL ASHAMED OF THEM !!!!! (And guess which neutral, economic and military Super-Power on the sideline will be THE ONLY buyer of A-L-L of Kaddhaffi’s oil next? Was that part of “Israel“‘s / France’s / the U.S.A.‘s / N.A.T.O.‘s film script for this glorious operation, too?) (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 1:59 pm Part 5 / 7 But back to the tactical level, to that second friendly fire incident which I spoke of above: The situation on the ground is extremely fluid, with almost daily see-saw movements by both opponents’ forces. What is a retreating loyalist vehicle ( = a “legitimate” target) to a Western fighter-bomber pilot now, is a pursuing rebel vehicle — occupying exactly the same spot! — ten minutes later. According to French newspapers, THAT’S how the second attack by mistake came about: It happened while the rebel frontline forces were storming too fast into Kaddhaffi-held territory, and N.A.T.O. wasn’t kept updated enough. N.A.T.O. was still looking at old maps. (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 1:59 pm Part 6 / 7 All of which makes me wonder: Can’t N.A.T.O. dispense a single, old spare radio or second-hand mobile phone for all the rebels, so that the latter can constantly transmit the fluctuating front-line back? Or do they prefer to just drop another half billion $ worth of ordnance blindly? What else are all the rumoured Western special forces doing in Libya, if not observing and broadcasting / F.A.C.ing from the front: Sight-seeing? (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 2:00 pm Part 7 / 7 P.S.: No one may have noticed, but you’re absolutely right about that one, hotly disputed, technical detail, too: The C.E.P. of I.N.S.-guided ammunition REALLY increases with distance / flight length, and not just by a few meters per every 10 kilometers covered. That’s why the I.N.S. systems of ships (including of submarines) and of aircraft (including of drones) need to be CONSTANTLY calibrated, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to find a continent on the other side of an ocean. (I’m a private pilot, I should know. But are there no other, professional pilots or electronics experts on this Web-site, only former infantrymen?)
	C W "Trigger" Miller April 8th, 2011 at 2:04 pm Continuing to purchase the JSF at $150,000,000.00 + and rising each times 2600… Humm, there is no reason to purchase a manned Aircraft when we have JASSM-ER, ALCM’s, Predator, Global Hawk, etc… etc… We could build thousands of long-range standoff missiles that can Kill IADS of any Country. Stealth is dead!!! F-22 is dead!!! and JSF is DEAD!!! Spending a 10+Trillion over the life cycle of the system is Crazy!!! Air Force Secretary Michael Donley Donnelly and Admiral Mullins (Stealth Ships + a 1000 after burning Ships/Targets and hired the President of Northrop Grumman Ship Building) Navy is outrageous. Gates needs to fire these two idiots immediately.
	Charlie April 8th, 2011 at 2:10 pm Well I agree with what you say but I don’t see the need to develop a EW bird for the USAF The cost is out of site, heaven and earth and when you start to radiate stealth is kind of out the window anyway, ( Remember initial pilot training is a joint venture these days as well ). The EA6B with USAF pilot and ECMOs works and when you think of making the F35 an Electronic bird you could have more than enough Growlers for everyone to go around. And tactics and comms etc would all mesh. I would guess the EF18 G has yet to prove itself although they did take the 3 they had deployed them to the Med area with other assets. The rest I am sure is classified. I remember very vividly in 1972 when the EA6B first came out the Navy would not deploy the first EA6B feet dry to support the B52 strikes in LB2. Why — it was new and sure as heck didn’t want to lose one. Didn’t even do it for ourselves. Kind of the F22 story all over again. Frankly we didn’t need them in Libya. If we cannot dance with F15 and F18s with a third rate country we better come come home anyway cause no F22 is going to make a difference. As per the electronic environment you never know who the operators are on the ground and do you want to use your front line machines when you don’t have to. BIG cat and mouse game with that stuff. In this case I don’t think we needed the F22. Between the F18 and F15 there weere plenty o assets on the ground to get any job done. Regards.
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 2:10 pm Then right now you’ve still got 48 hours left to do the job in Afghanistan.
	freefallingbomb April 8th, 2011 at 2:28 pm Yet these same incorrigible invaders and oil-thieves hypocritically complain that Kaddhaffi commits war crimes… Each day I feel more DISGUSTED of N.A.T.O. and of U.N.O. and more inclined towards Russia and China, if only because these two Super-Powers have the means and the will to confront the Fascist, Neo-Colonialistic West (whatever their internal affairs. That’s not my business).
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 2:54 pm It really doesn’t translate well thru this medium does it?
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 2:58 pm The Air (chair) Force never did like slow and ugly and dirty… Even if it gets the job done
	Guest April 8th, 2011 at 3:01 pm You don’t want to go there Devil Dog…
	STemplar April 8th, 2011 at 3:36 pm The US policy is that he has lost legitimacy, the UN resolution doesn’t speak about that. One of the chief problems, that our stated goal, and military efforts are not unified.
	STemplar April 8th, 2011 at 3:37 pm You realize of course your right to rant as openly about Fascists and Neo’s of one flavor or another goes away with Russia and Chine to a large extent?
	Lance April 8th, 2011 at 3:39 pm The F-15 can handle any threat the Libyan’s had in air to air combat. There was no need to send F-22s into Libya.
	Bob April 8th, 2011 at 3:52 pm No matter which of our very potent and expensive “war toys” we use it does not matter when we are in a fight we have little to no business being in, especially carrying a multi-Trillion Dollar Deficit! Charity begins at home. Keep the toys home and mind our own damned business. First order of business? Paydown or payoff the national debt and get it off of my childrens’ backs, and their children’s backs as well. Darn fools in Washington D.C.need to wake up!
	AmicusCuriae April 8th, 2011 at 3:58 pm The air war campaign in Libya is not a serious test of the capabilities of any of the aircraft you mention. Of course the Rafale and the F-15 would be useful in that situation. A P-47 Thunderbolt may also be useful. Advanced “stealth” (furtive) capability and supersonic cruise was not essential for success. Here is another interpretation of the latest excuse: We do not now and never will have enough F-22s to be wasting them on third world cesspool police actions. This would not even rank as a difficult combat training deployment. Since we didn’t buy enough F-22s, we need to conserve flying hours and spares for when they can serve a useful purpose, like intimidating clear and present dangers to the United States of America. I assure everyone that those dangerous potential adversaries do not regard the F-22 as a joke.
	Byron Skinner April 8th, 2011 at 4:10 pm Good Afternoon Folks, It’s Spring and the butternuts are blooming. Hi ffb. I can’t find much fault with what you say, I sometimes tire of your WW II Nazi analogies, I never the less see a different insight then what we been from the American right wing. You antiquated opinions are shared by many relocated europeans this side of the pond to be sure ffb, so I’m not unfamiliar with them. Here is a question ffb that may but up you alley, why are the Germans acting the way they currently are? I can think of a couple of reason. The Germans moved a lot of “gold” in this are especially Egypt after WW II and they were real quick to get Deutsche Bank assets flown out of Egypt early. Also it is widely assumed in the US that Germany for decades have ignored all of the embargoes placed by the UN in this are looking out for Krout #1. Another opinion on this is from an art dealer who is involve in recovering stole art I know who says Mubarak never took Germany to the Hague and pursued reclaiming the looted antiquities that Germany looted from Egypt in the 19th and first half of the 20th. Century. She was tell me that ALL of the stolen art and antiquities taken from Iraq during the 2003 US invasion that have bee found/recovered have had German finger prints all over them. Any thoughts on this ffb. To Boomer. I have heard the same things regarding the A-10 and AC-130J’s. It would appear that the productivity of mother Air Force and Naval aviation has been far less then expected. You buddies on the USS Florida though sounds like they did a great job. One source says the USS Florida lighted off 54 TLAMS in the first hour, and has fired almost all of there 154 TLAM magazine before retiring to CONUS for a reload. Finally what will be next weeks excuse of why the F-22 didn’t make it to Libya? One source that I have maintains the a squadron of F-22’s (6 F-22’s?) home based in Virginia as well as the two E/F-18G’s that re deployed to Italy by the Navy so they could be used against Libyan air defenses. were in Iraq just before the Libyan air campaign, but the F-22’s quickly went back home. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	AmicusCuriae April 8th, 2011 at 4:46 pm Some Europeans are not so trustworthy and have demonstrated a tendancy towards espionage on the F-22 for business reasons, not self defence. The US taxpayers spent a lot getting the F-22 to be effective and we are just trying to stretch the time it takes to be obsolete. No, I don’t think there are enemies of the US in the list you mention If you mean does not fly in joint exercises with foreign aircraft, I am confused, because they do. If you mean they don’t fly against foreign aircraft in actual or mock combat, that is partially true, but again, why should we give away all our capability?I
	AmicusCuriae April 8th, 2011 at 4:47 pm I am not sure what you mean by cutting foreign radar technology, but if you are saying there have been restrictions imposed on foreign radars during joint exercises, I am not aware of that. He may have been furtive, yes, but sometimes F-22s are “wearing” a special radar target to radiate like a less furtive jet. It’s a game. When a lot of money is involved in purchasing a product and others want the money for their product, there can be personal issues, regional issues, even cheating lies and corruption involved to explain irrational behavior. As a result, good products are stopped. If it comes to defending ourselves from N. Korea or Iran, or intimidating them from aggression, we will use them to good advantage. The age of their aircraft is not so important. They either have nuclear weapons or are on their way to acquire them. They either have suitable delivery systems or they are acquiring them.
	David A April 8th, 2011 at 5:36 pm Not to nit-pick, but why use a picture of one of the prototype jets in an article when there are plenty of shots of operationally deployed models available?
	altor April 8th, 2011 at 6:37 pm You are wrong. Both Rusia and China are working on 5th generation fighters, and both have prototypes fliying. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010–01.html “Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close, high, fast and lethal. The F-22A may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor.[…]The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.”
	MrC April 8th, 2011 at 8:00 pm God, Byron has totally gone off the deep end. In the last couple of blog posts, he insulted our Air Force pilots and lied about B-2 bombers dropping dozens of JDAMs into empty desert. I see that he’s repeating his nonsense here. Glad to see that everyone is coming out and calling him on it. This guy is a nutcase who does nothing but bash air power with criticisms pulled from his rear.
	Byron Skinner April 8th, 2011 at 10:38 pm Good Evening Folks, Lets see on the evening of March 24th-25th. 2011, three B-2’s carrying 15 2000 lb weapons each released their bombs in air space outside of Libya at Libyan target. That sure looks like three dozen plus weapons to me. As far as AF BDA, it claimed no target hit, nor did the Gadhafi forces who would have benefitted from such. Granted it was a needless and stupid jesters on the part of the USAF, but these acts of showmanship are rather common to them. Then their was the Bone raid that dropped 115 SDB’s and hit 100 targets, the targets have never been identified. I guess self denial is the best weapon of all, wouldn’t you say. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	TONKA April 8th, 2011 at 11:10 pm freefallingbomb, for being a self-proclaimed expert on INS and validating Byron’s assertions regarding INSs above you are rather ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant. Since you are a private pilot, I would presume you can be taught. That said, an INS drift is based on time … the time directly related to the vehicle’s speed is where they deviate from their intended destination. Also, INS’s have different drift rates based on the manufacturing technology. You say that a vehicle (submarine, aircraft … whatever) must be calibrated. That is true, but if the INS drifts how do they calibrate it in flight or in the ocean? Since you are a pilot, I would presume you know a little about your aircraft systems (or you should). How do you “calibrate” your INS in flight? You don’t! At least not without another system (such as a GPS) providing a feed into it. Your use of terminology is inaccurate since once the INS is calibrated, it only needs updating because the calibration occurs with respect to the INS sensing true north on the ground before you take-off. The INS is only updated after you are in flight, no INS likes straight and level flight for an extended period of time so turns, climbs and dives actually help keep your INS “tight” … so does a GPS. So, how does this relate to a JDAM? A JDAM is an INS which travels along a relative position — relative to the aircraft . Based on the coordinates of the aircraft, it knows the coordinates of the target. At 15,000 ft the time of flight of a JDAM is so low that it is insignificant. However, the GPS aids in this … it provides a constant input to the INS to ensure it is on the right path. So, higher altitudes are negated by GPS aiding. Additionally, the more altitude the more energy the JDAM has. (you ought to appreciate this being a pilot and having to look for diverts in an engine out condition) The JDAM glides to its target and the lower altitudes may not allow for the weapon to achieve the optimum target parameters. That said, a higher altitude JDAM profile actually negates any concerns for accuracy by 1) providing the energy and 2) providing GPS acquisition time. I would recommend you do some more reading on your INS for your piloting and also consider exploring the impact the Schuler cycle has on INSs as well. Lastly, aircraft do not need men on the ground to designate targets … look into the military’s use of the term “interdiction”? That is why the coordination with the ground elements is so critical.
	TONKA April 8th, 2011 at 11:19 pm Byron Why don’t you give us your sources … I would like to read the same articles myself to see where you are getting this dribble.
	William C. April 9th, 2011 at 12:17 am Who knew that all bomb-damage assessments and data on targets had to go through Byron?
	MrC April 9th, 2011 at 1:12 am Can you imagine this? The USAF has nothing better to do than to fly three B-2 bombers (of which it only has 20, each worth over a billion dollars) on across the world from CONUS to Libya, just to waste dozens of munitions on empty desert. I too would like to see his “sources.”
	MrC April 9th, 2011 at 1:26 am I strongly disagreed with Byron before, but at least he was posting genuine opinions that were sane, despite being biased and occasionally inaccurate. But Byron has now lost his mind, and is repeating the same blatant lies and outrageous accusations. All backed up by alleged “sources” that he can’t name or show anyone. His posts are verbal pollution, that embarrass what is supposed to be a serious military blog and news source. They amount to slander against the American military and its servicemen. How’s about we just click “Report” from now on, and notify the blog editors whenever Byron comes out to troll like this?
	freefallingbomb April 9th, 2011 at 5:36 am Part 1 / 3 Oh boys… If I’m “ignorant” about aeronautical navigation systems (and I fly a lot), then you belong to some non-cognitive life form. 1) I strongly simplified my explanation above. (I like to simplify, even when I explain difficult matters) 2) Here, extra for you, mini-pseudo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Accuracy_of_Nav… (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 9th, 2011 at 5:37 am Part 2 / 3 According to this table, if gyro-compasses (“I.N.S.” = plain old gyro-compasses) deviate 650 meters after only one hour (and I know for a fact that they deviate MUCH MORE that that! The earliest trans-atlantic airliners after World War Two, the “Super-Constellations”, were always 30 km off course after a 6 hours long flight. Of course, once they arrived to the other side they had radio beacons again to find their way around), then they also drift 10,8 meters off course PER MINUTE . Simple mathematics. Now multiply this inevitable, permanent deviation with a J.D.A.M.‘s (minutes of) flight time, after it’s released from a safe distance and from an effective altitude ( = potential energy turned into kinetic energy), and you unwittingly proved Byron’s claim as absolutely correct, when he said that I.N.S.-guided J.D.A.M.s are far too imprecise to hit any (standing, let alone moving…) vehices, or other small targets. (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 9th, 2011 at 5:38 am Part 3 / 3 You’re just dropping half a billion $ worth of expensive, “sophisticated” (expensive doesn’t necessarily mean sophisticated, let alone effective) ammunitions in the SAND , like stupid! Add to that the fact that N.A.T.O.s “wise” war planners apparently ONLY work with old ( = obsolete) maps, because apparently they have no communication equipment to spare for the rebels, and N.A.T.O. / Operation “Odyssey Clown” has no reconnaissance planes either (quite apparently…), then calculate your J.D.A.M.s’ resulting C.E.P. ! That should also explain the incredibly suspicious lack of close-ups of destroyed targets, exactly like over Serbia 1999 , too. “Death, where is thy sting?” (Beautiful Bible quote)
	freefallingbomb April 9th, 2011 at 6:32 am As you know, I don’t usually quip stuff like “Byron = BS” , etc. (even trolls have minimal cultural pretentions), but sincerely: What should I, as an European who enjoyed a minimum of education, think of this particular commentary of yours? According to you, if the “solo-dancing, unconscionable Germans” didn’t join just another of your Anglo Blitzkriegs, then it must be because they’re (quote) “too busy stealing gold and artworks from poor Third World peoples”. Here’s MY quip: Compared to hollering U.S. American football patriots like you, even U.S. movie directors like D. W. Griffith and Samuel Fuller were vanguardistic social critics!
	Trophy April 9th, 2011 at 7:40 am “In its most accurate mode, the JDAM system will provide a weapon circular error probable of 5 meters or less during free flight when GPS data is available. If GPS data is denied, the JDAM will achieve a 30-meter CEP or less for free flight times up to 100 seconds with a GPS quality handoff from the aircraft.” Source: USAF Fact Sheet http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factshee… Calculating free-fall speed at 15,000 feet with an initial velocity of 250 MPH, the free-fall time of a JDAM would be approximately 30 seconds. At 45,000 feet, the free-fall time would be approximately 52 seconds. Majority of real-world JDAM weapons-release altitudes would keep it’s flight time from ever being measured in minutes.
	Trophy April 9th, 2011 at 8:03 am Disregard the calculations, I forgot that the JDAM doesn’t truly free-falls: it glides with it’s strakes. But still, most real-world weapons-release altitudes aren’t near the maximum release altitude for the JDAM. Also, because we’re dealing with opponents that don’t use highly sophisticated technologies, GPS-jamming is a non-issue. In any case, Byron is still wrong.
	TONKA April 9th, 2011 at 9:56 am It is relieving to see someone else who has a clue!!! And can do simple math!
	@Earlydawn April 9th, 2011 at 10:47 am Sources please. Your credibility is shot.
	@Earlydawn April 9th, 2011 at 11:04 am Hey Byron, what does any of this have to do with defense or any of the older garbage that you posted?
	Trophy April 9th, 2011 at 3:25 pm I’m not joking when I say I seriously think that these “sources” are the voices inside his head.
	Byron Skinner April 9th, 2011 at 4:22 pm Good Afternoon Folks, Just to humor all you butternuts. It is quite obvious that none of you read any newspapers or the information you are curious about you would already have known to you. All of the information on the B-2 and Bone raids was published in the LA Times, WSJ, WP, and NYT’s as well as The Air Force Times. In fact most of numerical information I use for arguments comes from the above sources. If you butternuts are to lazy, to cheap to subscribe to, or dumb to read the daily news their is absolutely nothing I can do, you are operating purely on own ignorance and your own warped personal ideologies. As for the issue off ffb and technical information, all you are trying to do is mask the fact that you have absolutely no factual based arguments to present and have to change the subject. How a JADAM II is guided to target means noting. What is important is if a weapons hits an intended target or not. The performance of US aircraft from 15,000 ft. was dismal. As the military and their supporters have always done is make excuses for failures instead of owning up to them and correcting the problems which is this case appears to be a case of oversold weapon capabilities, lack of any war planning and air tasking, and under trained air crews. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	MrC April 9th, 2011 at 10:03 pm Anyone can throw out the names of newspapers like the LA Times, WSJ, and NYT. Citing and quoting specific articles to back up specific assertions is quite a different thing, Byron. SHOW us these articles reporting B-2 Spirit pilots who are so incompetent that they drop 45 JDAMs onto empty sand, as you keep on insisting that they did. What’s that? You can’t?
	@Earlydawn April 9th, 2011 at 10:34 pm Issue and page, please. “Butternuts?” Who’s calling people names now? You are a fraud.
	Trophy April 9th, 2011 at 11:35 pm A search on the Air Force Times and the New York Times websites brought up nothing about negative JDAM performance, but just the opposite.… articles celebrating the effectiveness of the JDAM system. The LA Times has only article regarding the JDAM, which covers the various mechanical and human errors that can interfere with JDAM performance: nothing that backs up your claims. A search on the Wall Street Journal yielded only one result that only mentioned the cost of a JDAM kit. A search on the Washington Post yielded NO results, searching for both “JDAM” and “Joint Direct Attack Munition”. I’ve used the following search phrase on those sites: “JDAM performance”, “JDAM error”, “JDAM miss” Once again, you failed to prove anything other than your lack of ability to back up your dubious claims.
	Cocidius April 10th, 2011 at 12:45 am Really, how hilarious that shooting a bunch of TLAMS at dirt primitive Libya suddenly proves that we can kill the IADS of any country. And on your stealth is dead thing/last manned fighter fairy tale, you might try selling that line to the Chinese Cowboy! Something tells me that they’re not listening! http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-AF/Chengdu-J-XX-VL…
	WarPony April 10th, 2011 at 1:18 am and, lets not forget, that the general (Michael Wayne) who wanted to deploy f-22s to the middle east was the same general “retired” over the “missing nukes” (Dakota to MS.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22… ”
	WarPony April 10th, 2011 at 1:33 am “to … dumb to read the daily news” … Byron, talk about warped ideologys — figured you’d know by now …WE don’t buy that PR CR** anymore. Haven’t you heard of the “militry/industrila/media/bankters-mafia/monopoly?” Ergo, “excuses for failures instead of owning up to them and correcting the problems which is this case appears to be a case of oversold weapon capabilities(?)” And, when you talk of “military and their supporters,” dont you mean the “militry/industrila/media/bankters-mafia/monopoly?” You, know, the New-World-Order — UN/NATO? Beware the “butter-knife” brigades. are you following the rabbit trail now ALLICE?
	@Earlydawn April 10th, 2011 at 1:47 am Yet another tin foil-hatter who’s trying to be cleverer than the facts allow. Cite sources for this mysterious undocumented smart weapon inaccuracy, or stop posting garbage and go away.
	@Earlydawn April 10th, 2011 at 1:49 am Byron, are you going to respond to this? Your house of misinformation seems to be collapsing.
	Mr Blobby April 10th, 2011 at 5:29 am I can’t be the only person who finds the ‘Good Afternoon Folks’ / ‘Allons’ thing infuriating? It’s like supercomputers designed it to grate on the nerves of the maximum number of people.
	Byron Skinner April 10th, 2011 at 3:56 pm Good Afternoon Folks, There is nothing to respond to. All I see is a bunch of chatter and babbling that would be common on any Middle School playground. Nobody is making an argument to support any idea and you are doing is bullying and since I’ve already kicked you collective sixes, I have nothing more to say. Right now I have to get ready a Daily Teaspoon column. It is the nonsense that is above, is why dod buzz is no longer read by the people that are making decisions, you guys with your silly right wing postings killed the site. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	Trophy April 10th, 2011 at 4:27 pm You make a dubious statement about the ineffectiveness of JDAM thus the ineffectiveness of the F-22. We challenged your statement and called for you to prove your claims. You state that your claims are based off of articles that are readily available online, yet still did not cite any publications. When pressed further you spout off random publications without directly citing any specific articles. I then took the time to search those publications you cited and found nothing to back up your original statement. Now you come back and pout that we’re just babbling and not providing any argument. We already provided counter-arguments to your original statement. But the discussion got stalled when you failed to properly address our counter-arguments and requests for citations, instead attempting to divert the discussion away from your original points. Now you’re including baseless right-wing bashing comments (which by the way I’m an independent), which is yet another failure on your part for this discussion… as comments of that nature easily devolves discussions into back-and-forth name-calling. If you honestly wanted a real discussion, you’d have better served yourself with preparing some readily available citations to go directly with your posting and leave out the left-wing/right-wing sentiments. Otherwise, I’d venture to guess that you’re really just using lengthy fluff-filled posts to give the appearance that you actually have some sort of technical expertise, in an attempt to persuade the ignorant masses into following your own personal agendas. Your posting behavior on this site is indicative of this.
	Maryam Choufany April 11th, 2011 at 1:05 am Good morning my felow AMERICAN ‚The wiseman wants us to enter secretly to LORESTAN and start NOW the FUTURE For real Glory .Do not waste TTTTTIME.TRUELY YOURS
	Maryam Choufany April 11th, 2011 at 1:21 am START training the CAMMEELES from Afghanistan to the secret HOLLY underground BASSSSE move fast before they WAKE UP .
	Maryam Choufany April 11th, 2011 at 1:29 am From there move to MASHAD and NW area and go forward till you get CHANCE to reach to TABRIZ and you can strech to SHIRAZ GET to the TRIANGLE of control then you willllllllllll seeeee THE FUTURE BETER
	Maryam Choufany April 11th, 2011 at 1:41 am MOVE some EEEEENNNNEEEERRRRGGGGEEEE from BAGDAD to ABADAN and AHWAZ again SSSSSSSecretly then you can back up SHIRAZ FORRRRR better control in future TRIANGLE do the job YESTERDAY before they wake uppppppppp
	Maryam Choufany April 11th, 2011 at 1:44 am THE secret to sucssssssssssssssssses is to do it SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSECRETLY TRUELY YOURS MARYAM
	Maryam Choufany April 11th, 2011 at 1:57 am THE next back up can be moved through BAKKU but is not easy to be tusted are lots of eyesssss WAtching if you get a chance entere to makkoo the old border in between remmmmmemmmber the old EYESSSSSSS are stillll there the local can lead you to TABRIZ but you have to be carefullllll tabriz is half and half you got to be with right group other wise ghom or qome willllll wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
	freefallingbomb April 11th, 2011 at 4:28 am To the poster “Trophy” ——————————- Part 1 / 2 You wrote: “If GPS data is denied, the JDAM will achieve a 30-meter CEP or less for free flight times up to 100 seconds with a GPS quality handoff from the aircraft.” 1) “If GPS data is denied” = then we’re back to square one = I.N.S. (short of laser marking or intelligent seekers like terrain-matching radars, etc.) . (Continued)
	freefallingbomb April 11th, 2011 at 4:28 am Part 2 / 2 2) “…the JDAM will achieve a 30-meter CEP or less for free flight times up to 100 seconds with a GPS quality handoff from the aircraft.” = 30 meters deviation after barely 2 minutes of flight? Are you trying to prove my point or what? What tank or bunker wall on Earth won’t resist a 2.000 pounds (910 kg) heavy J.D.A.M. from that far way? Will you even be able to hit a runway with only one single G.P.S.-less (or jammed) J.D.A.M. ? If not: Why not resort to good, old, World-War-Two-style carpet-bombing again? (It’s cheaper) The rest of your post, whether a smart bomb falls free (vertically) or whether it has a gliding angle (thanks to airplane speed and / or to its own wings and / or to its own propulsion) is irrelevant to the precisions of various guidance systems. Byron is right. He always is.
	Byron Skinner April 11th, 2011 at 3:06 pm Good Morning Folks, The current accumulated costs of the Libyan air war for the US is $608 million dollar and the DoD estimated cost per month of standing by is $40 million a month. I got an OK to say that the B-2 and Bone raids carried out on Libya were done from 40,000 ft. I was offered no corrections on my statements on BDA. To ffb. Regardless of your political feelings on the current French Government, they are doing a great job and have moved operations into West Africa where the US is afraid to thread. From the reluctance I’m hearing from sources, I wouldn’t be surprise that Syria will become a French show. The concern with in the US military about the performance of US air strikes is being taken more seriously the I had previously been told. The accuracy issue and the general inability of our so-called very expensive (JADAM II kit for a 500 lb. bomb is said to cost $50,000.00 for the kit alone, or as my source said thats more then the average wages of three Wal-Mart employees)) smart weapons to find/hit and destroy is bothering a lot of members of congress. ALLONS, Byron Skinner
	@Earlydawn April 11th, 2011 at 3:20 pm Hi Byron, Sources please. Sincerely, A majority of Military.com responders.
	@Earlydawn April 11th, 2011 at 3:21 pm Hi Byron, I wasn’t aware that a request for sources was partisan.
	MrC April 11th, 2011 at 9:01 pm “I got an OK to say that the B-2 and Bone raids carried out on Libya were done from 40,000 ft. I was offered no corrections on my statements on BDA.” Look everyone, Byron’s now an INSIDER! He doesn’t need to cite any sources (even though he was the one who brought up all those newspapers…), he gets it straight from the military’s mouth! Just stop it Byron, for your own sake. You’re embarassing yourself.
	rylosp April 12th, 2011 at 7:20 pm I FEEL THE NEED FOR SPEED.LOV YOU WHERLLYN.
	jerryhartley April 13th, 2011 at 7:39 pm My Wife worked on the JADAMS program. She say’s you have no idea what your talking about.
	Karl Kracker April 14th, 2011 at 12:56 pm “CEP“Circular error probable and “CBN” Circular Bivarate Probable From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In the military science of ballistics, circular error probable (CEP) (also circular error probability or circle of equal probability[1]) is an intuitive measure of a weapon system’s accuracy. It is defined as the radius of a circle, centered about the mean, whose boundary is expected to include 50% of the population within it.[2] The original concept of CEP was based on a circular bivariate normal distribution (CBN) with CEP as a parameter of the CBN just as μ and σ are parameters of the normal distribution. Munitions with this distribution behavior tend to cluster around the aim point, with most reasonably close, progressively fewer and fewer further away, and very few at long distance. That is, if CEP is n meters, 50% of rounds land within n meters of the target, 43% between n and 2n, and 7 % between 2n and 3n meters, and the proportion of rounds that land farther than three times the CEP from the target is less than 0.2%. This distribution behavior is often not met. Precision-guided munitions generally have more “close misses” and so are not normally distributed. Munitions may also have larger standard deviation of range errors than the standard deviation of azimuth (deflection) errors, resulting in an elliptical confidence region. Munition samples may not be exactly on target, that is, the mean vector will not be (0,0). This is referred to as bias. To apply the CEP concept in these conditions, we can define CEP as the square root of the mean square error (MSE). The MSE will be the sum of the variance of the range error plus the variance of the azimuth error plus the covariance of the range error with the azimuth error plus the square of the bias. Thus the MSE results from pooling all these sources of error, geometrically corresponding to radius of a circle within which 50% of rounds will land. [edit]Conversion between CEP, RMS, 2DRMS, and R95 While 50% is a very common definition for CEP, the circle dimension can be defined for percentages. Approximate formulas are available to convert the distributions along the two axes into the equivalent circle radius for the specified percentage.[3][4] Accuracy MeasureProbability (%) Root mean square (RMS)63 to 68 Circular error probability (CEP)50 Twice the distance root mean square (2DRMS)95 to 98 95% radius (R95)95 From/toCEPRMSR952DRMS CEP-1.22.12.4 RMS0.83–1.72.0 R950.480.59–1.2 2DRMS0.420.50.83–
	jerryhartley April 17th, 2011 at 12:11 pm Thats because the A-10 is doing the job it was designed and built for.
	jerryhartley April 17th, 2011 at 12:19 pm I agree, he has no knowlege or, has done any research on the subjects he tries be proficent on.
	Robert A. Fritts April 20th, 2011 at 1:09 am Just like the USMC totally screwed the pooch in 2003, being stopped cold by street gangs, driving their primary Armor thrust into the Al-Nassyria septic leaching fields, sinking almost all of their armor in 14ft of Kaka, because the Recon experts did a map recon only. The Amphib force that could not cross 80meter canals with concrete boat landings on both sides. The 90K force that lost 11 times more vehicle than 135K Soldiers(but only12% to combat). Maybe you should live in reality on planet Earth. You need it done right by Americans, then you do not send the USMC, you send the Army. Just the Facts.
	Robert A. Fritts April 20th, 2011 at 1:14 am Since the most effective Aircraft in this very limited engagemnt over Libya have been the Mirage 2000–9 and the Rafale M f3 its all a moot point. Maybe we can have a yard sale at every USAF base with the proceeds going back to you and I the taxpayer. The US Air Farce has no stones for a fight and is overall a 80–90% waste of time and money. Hell they barely want to play in Iraq and A-stan.

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