The Raptor conundrum

The Raptor conundrum

Still no combat sorties for the Air Force’s F-22 Raptor, but in the realm of drills and exercises, the super-jet remains the king of the skies. Next month the 27th Fighter Squadron, based at Langley AFB, Va., will be the first Raptor unit in the Air Force to accept the Raytheon Trophy, which honors an “outstanding air superiority squadron.” According to today’s announcement, the airmen of the 27th won won in part because of how well they demonstrated their Raptors could deploy and integrate with all kinds of other American and international units last year:

During fiscal year 2010, the 27 FS, known as the “Fightin’ Eagles,” deployed more than 200 days in support of combatant commanders from the East China Sea to Southwest Asia. Pilots, maintainers and support personnel pioneered the first-ever F-22 presence in the Middle East through participation in Iron Falcon — a multinational training exercise hosted at the United Arab Emirates Air Warfare Center …

[Later, in the Western Pacific], the 27 FS executed the first-ever large-scale, intra-theater movement and regeneration of F-22s, validating the combat deployment and regeneration capability of the Raptor. Superior operations, logistics and maintenance planning enabled the F-22s to fight their way in, land and regenerate a combat alert status posture. The capstone event … was Exercise Valiant Shield, a 10-day joint plan validation involving 11 combat units, a carrier strike group and more than 150 joint service fighter aircraft.


Did you copy all that? (Follow the link for the official Air Force story with many more details.) Last year, the Air Force sent an F-22 squadron overseas for 200 days. By its own standards, the airmen and their jets performed brilliantly — to an award-winning level. And yet when the Air Force was preparing for the first days of operations against Libya, the super-jet apparently never made it into the air plan for attacks or patrols to enforce the no-fly zone. In fact, it almost seems as though the F-22 was the only American warplane not given a chance to play in Libya: Marine Harriers, Air Force B-2s and B-1s all have gotten into the act, in addition to all the local assets from Europe and elsewhere.

And yet when the Air Force’s top officials were asked to explain why the Raptor hadn’t been used in Libya, they told congressional lawmakers it was because the Raptors’ home bases in the U.S. put them out of range of the targets or patrol boxes in Libya. So, next month, the first Raptor squadron is getting a prize for doing something that the brass said it couldn’t do: Deploy long distances from home and operate in a hostile expeditionary environment. Hey, not fair, the Air Force would say — obviously the F-22 can do it, just not in the short time available before the start of operations in Libya.

Maybe so, but here’s the bottom line: The 27th Fighter Squadron’s trophy shows that when it wants to, the Air Force can move and use the F-22 to its complete satisfaction. So far, though, it has preferred not do to so for real. Why? Here’s one theory I pitched in my previous gig:

A cynic might take this view of the situation: The F-22 production line is still going, approaching the completion of its final jet in November. If DOD actually used the Raptor to do something for real, it could awaken a desire for Lockheed and its lawmakers to try the kind of strategy that has worked for Boeing’s Super Hornets: “Hey, the factory’s almost closed, but we can get such a good deal per plane, we’d be fools not to buy 40 or 50 more!” (Repeat every year for as long as possible.) This would a harder sell with the much more expensive Raptor, but missions over Libya could reawaken a more-Raptors specter that Gates and the White House want to stay dead.

What do you think?

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Build lots more F22s. Orig requirement was over 700

Makes sense to have the supreme air superiority fighter be US to hedge against the chicomms and Russia.

Just one problem: Barry Obama and his hatred of American superiority.

It will never happen.

What’s all the fuss about? So what if the DoD decided it was better to use the teen fighters versus the Raptor? And who cares if their justification for keeping the F22 doesn’t fully answer the facts?? It’s the DoD’s job to make these calls. My guess is they wanted to show off the F-18, 15 & 16 to all those potential buyers who were considering new fighters. Plus there’s no need to bring a bazooka to a knife fight… our boys carried the day better than anyone, anyway.

Hence the Air Force Secretary and Chief of Staff Note on putting this controversy in their rear view mirror. It is not without risk, and it is not without impact to an already fragile industrial base. The cost of this decision is now flowing to other programs, lost opportunities for building international partnerships, as well as displacing a talented workforce honed through twenty plus years of development and production. Should the nation ever want to recover the capability, it will not be at the speed available for World War Two; it will be decades. (read Obamas plan to disarm USA)

http://​www​.sldinfo​.com/​?​p​=​325

They need a justification for keeping the F-22?! Production numbers were cut and that still isn’t enough for some people.

There is no Risk. Stealth is Dead. See S-400. Cut JSF, F-22, B-2, NGB, Stealth Boats, and lets stop this non-sense.

@trigger.
Good plan. Surrender…

@trigger.
Good plan. Surrender…

Maybe,just maybe it is hard to justified f-35 production if the f-22 can fly the same missions and is in produccion right now?

What if the f-22 does brilliandly over libya and they see that there’s no real need for the f-35?

Maybe it would have become obvious that making More f-22 made more sense than making the f-35?

Another clueless no-nothing spewing political garbage. Get a grip.

Most likely, not using the F-22 is because it wasn’t needed. We weren’t engaged in air-to-air against Libya’s antiquated air force. It would have been like sending an M-1 tank when a squad car was needed.

This is such a dumb, dumb question. Why expose the F-22 and allow people to get a profile on it when, as has been pointed out, it was totally unnecessary to the mission?

We already know the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and God knows who else have scavenged battlefields from Iraq to Kosovo to get their hands on literally chunks of American war machines. Why expose F-22 to the myriad of things that can go wrong under Murphy’s Law and potentially risk exposure?

The people who are complaining that F-22 should have been used are plainly motivated by a desire to see the Raptor do its thing and secure more funding, which is asinine in itself, given that chasing what remains of the Libyan Air Force from the skies is something that squadron of F-4s could have done.

Stop being deliberately dumb.

The real reason the F22 wasn’t used isn’t something the brass can come out and publicly state, which is the White house waited until the last second and then got caught with their pants down. They didn’t do anything remotely close to plan properly this whole mess. Their political and diplomatic efforts couldn’t have been more out of whack with their military resources if they tried.

It would have been nice if the military leadership could have gotten their bogus excuses straight before they opened their mouths, but then again, maybe a bunch of lousy answers that kept people asking questions was their way of kicking the can back to the White House.

3 wars and still now show.

No wonder the F-22 pilots are known as chicken suits.

Anyone notice we have used any of the MMIII arsenal? What a waste! Oh yeah. It’s not their mission.

The current leadership has no clue what they are doing with Libya. How do you expect them to have a clue about strategy? Libya is a lot of question marks. The F-22 is the least important of them.
And there have been some previous years not mentioned above where the F-22 deployed and did 100 percent MC rates. Pretty impressive.

A vote in 2008 for either Obama or McCain was a vote to end production of the F-22 (least there be any doubts about that, it was McCain who lead the effort in the Senate to stop production). So who would someone theoretically vote for in 2012 if they wanted to re-start raptor production?

Whoever takes the most Lockheed Martin money.

Keep an ear open for LockMart to start making noise about the F-22 again after Gates retires (just a wild ass guess on my part).

Ok, so using the f-22 was overkill but using the b-2 and b-1 was not?

Come on guys you can do better than that!

Here we go again. How often are they going to trot out this painfully OBVIOUS issue. THEY DIDN’T DEPLOY IT BECAUSE LIBYA EFFECTIVELY HAD NO AIR DEFENSES OF NOTE. FRICKIN’ DUH. Anybody who couldn’t figure this out themselves has no business writing on the subject. There are only going to be 187 F-22s and they won’t last forever so their hours need to be used wisely. Flying them to Libya so they can punch holes in the clouds would squander this limited resource. I’m surprised there aren’t people asking “uhhh, gee, why aren’t we using Trident missiles on IED teams” for the amount of stupidity seen in the “why didn’t the F-22 go to Libya” threads.

/rant

It’s that Damm Gates!! He will not let the Raptor in combat for fear that it might do very well, well enough for people to say, why are we spending all this money on the F-35 when we can buy a jet that is far superior to the F-35, and that’s already in production. A jet that can hit as many targets (with SBDs) and a jet that almost guarantees air superiority. WHY?? — Because he still wants to carry on with this Baby fued that goes back into the bush administration, that Mr Gates had with a couple Airforce generals. I can’t wait until he retires, it will be a good thing for America.

Poor excuse when the air-force was claiming that they couldnt implement a no-fly zone without destroying Libyan air defenses first.

There was a war, the F-22 should have been deployed, it sent 100 excuses instead. Case closed.

Actually the F22 can’t hit as many targets and was not ever intended to. It also doesn’t have IRST nor anything like the sensor fusion that the F35. I’m no real fan of either program, but I’ll give credit where it is due, the F35 will be better at strike.

if you don’t was take by the f-22 ideology, you can have all responses with only one argument: the f-22 is not the one that we say that he is, one stealth aircraft.
With this argument you know why, he don’t was deployed, why he don’t make training with others foreign aircraft (full techno on), why he don’t was sell, why he got f-35 stealth product (revetement), why they stop it?.…

Why they didn’t say that? because the f-35 was in the way, and what’s the big argument for the f-35? the stealth (not his capacity).Imagine if the world know that, imagine all partners if they know the stealth is over, and one french aircraft with better capacity and one small price can largely see and follow one stealth aircraft.…
This is another reason of why USA will absolutely destroy all market who was the multirole rafale, and give f-16 or f-15

I laugh when i see people who search one response of some questions because they have read pentagon or US propaganda papers.

I think Forrest Cantrell has it right in his post: it wasn’t needed.

In my opinion, this is the real reason. Why deploy this aircraft when its not needed? Who offer up the opportunity for intel collection? Why risk losing one to an accident or a “golden BB” over hostile territory? Can you just imagine the media coverage if this were to happen?

No, DOD has its hands full elsewhere. They didn’t need this kind of risk. The presence, or non-presence of the Raptor has no impact on this conflict.

intel collection for whom? libya, italia (as they’d be based in aviano)?

If we use the reasoning that the f-22 is too valuable and we can’t waste it’s limited life in a target like Libya then that should apply for the b-2, so I relly don’t think that can be the reason

b2 is useful because it can carry a shitload of JDAMs. but so can the b1 and b52, i suppose.

F-22 fanboys are like apple fanboys…gay. The f-22 is by far the worst thing this country has ever wasted money on and we are talking about the U.S. here. We waste money like no other country in the world. What most people earn in a year this country spends it in 5 seconds. Look it up its true. Last I checked it was about 10K a second that was spent.

Yep. The B-1 and B-2 have air to ground as a primary mission. The F-22 is an air superiority system. It was never an issue!

It just gets more interesting around the Hill and Pentagon each day. Thank god today’s leadership was never around during the Civil War or any of our World Wars.…..we would have been decimated. Our Generals and Admirals today are afraid to make any decision on their own in fear that Gates (the no clue Secretary of Defense) might fire them. I can’t believe the BS that went around the media concerning the F22 and it not being used in Libya. Libya would have been the perfect opportunity to test this aircraft because it had a low threat of any losses. It would have been perfect to test all of its operating systems and it would have been a good deployment for our pilots. The F22 is supposed to take over the role for the F15, but instead we send in the F15 which has been proven over and over again in combat. We had a good opportunity to test the F22 and our so called leadership elected not to. It’s time to clean house throughout the DoD, Congress and the Presidency. Bring back people like Reagan, Patton and McArthur.

The F-15 was originally a pure air-to-air fighter (“Not a pound for air-to-ground”) and the F-15A/B/C/D models are still purely air-to-air. It’s the F-15E that was re-designed for the strike role.

The F-22 was originally designed as a pure air-to-air fighter, but they tacked on a limited strike capability to allow it to supplement the F-35 in the strike role (as well as further justify the value of the aircraft), while the F-35 would supplement the F-22 in the air-to-air role.

Some of you are missing the point. An F-15 did in fact recently crash in Libya. So if you think the F-22 wasn’t needed you are sorely mistaken. First of all, if an F-15 is needed, the F-22 is needed. They share the same mission profile. Secondly, the F-22 is supposed to be newer and more survivable. Putting the F-22 in there may have prevented us from having to rescue an aborted pilot in enemy territory.

If we cut the JSF then all of my Soldiers could get reimbursed for their GOOD body Armor.

that is what i think i really believe that the F22 and the proposed but canceled f/B-22 could do what the F-35 can better more affectively and F/B range alone makes sense with the current Chinese threat i would suggest a 500 air superiority fighters (f-22) and 500 F/B-22… oh and i would update the F–22 to F/A-22 to add full ground attack capability

Yep the F-22 was so good it could not Earn its “A” in attack. Now it is useless because of the S-400 and several other devices. Do you think maybe that is way they stopped production???

Nope they need to retire all the 24 year old F-22’s and stop wasting funding on old technology.

The F-22 is not needed. Could could not Bomb a Garbage Truck. Although it does have an internal 20MM Cannon which is more than I can say for JSF.

The f-22 can most certainly be used as a srtike platform, it can carry a mix load of JDAMs and couple of Aim120s plus two AIM-9xs. It efectivly replaced the F-117. plus it can defend itself far better thar the F-15 and any other aircraft in the world for that matter. so your folkes who think it is just a fighter are either missinformed and need to google F-22 and research it a lettlr, or you hate America and do not want us to be the best and have the best fighter ? attacker in the world.

P/S The f-22 CAN release JADAMs supersonicly and extend the range of the JADAM farther and better than any platform.

The f-22 can most certainly be used as a srtike platform, it can carry a mix load of JDAMs and couple of Aim-120s plus two AIM-9xs. It has effectivly replaced the F-117, plus it can defend itself far better thar the F-15 and any other aircraft in the world for that matter. so you folks who think it is just a fighter are either missinformed and need to google F-22 and research it a little more, or you hate America and do not want us to be the best and have the best fighter /attacker in the world.

P/S The f-22 CAN release JADAMs supersonicly and extend the range of the JDAM farther and better than any platform, also the F-22 can carry SDBs racks which will let it carry 8 SBDs and attack 8 targets instead of two like the F-117 and it is stealther.

It was a mechanical problem that brought the F-15E down.

If you Don’t like it here in America you can move to a different country, That’s one of our freedoms!!

More F-22’s, F-15’s, F-16’s YES. F-35’s — Cancel it!

Well said!

Not by anyone that matters! Or by anyone that would say it to their face.

Don’t give them any ideas. Next thing you know they’ll be calling for a strike on Libya. And the world doesn’t need that much glass.

AH!—- the B means bomber. Bombs were dropped hence the need for bombers. The F-22 can drop bombs but it’s primarily an air superiority aircraft. A mission that’s not called for in Libya.

What is with you guys that are so eager for F-22 to used. If you were pilots I could understand, but I’m guessing your just fanboys. Trust me the leadership of the Air Force and the military understand the mission
of the F-22 and they’ll use it when it appropriate.
We need to worry less about the F-22 and more about the F-35. They are in the process of destroying the reputation of this fine and much needed aircraft before it goes into mass production.

France.

I’m afraid i don’t understand that there’s a problem here. There were U.S. strike assets essentially already on scene in the form of AV-8Bs and F-15s(at Lakenheath). If that combination can’t accomplish the limited scope mission conducted in a permissive environment, then what good are they?
Why would anyone want to move some of the extremely small number of F-22s over to that pissant mission.
From what i read, the F-22 has not been equipped to operate as a tactical strike/close combat support aircraft. The equipment is not scheduled to be installed until 2020. Striking a known, fixed target is another matter.
The F22 undoubtedly has two primary missions, establishing air dominance in the Persian Gulf, and air to air combat over a water environment in the Western Pacific. Tying these, expensive to maintain, aircraft down for the purpose of kicking the Libyans does not make any sense. You don’t want your ONLY air dominance force tied down when the balloon goes up in either of those scenarios.
DOD war gaming indicates that air combat in the Western Pacific be primarily the task of the F22s. it also indicates that losses would be expected to be very heavy among the F22s. The sheer magnitude of maintaining a CAP in the far Western Pacific from Guam is a daunting task that would require the majority of the support assets the U.S. Air Force has at its disposal. (The Chinese tactic will be to go after the support aircraft and the base at Guam).
As for the Persian Gulf, you can’t afford many leakers in an air combat operation against the Iranians. protecting the oil resources of the region is a job that means life blood to the U.S.
So why is it anyone wants F22s to show up over Libya? Please tell me something new. So far i have not read anything that makes sense.
BTW, the eventual advent of the F35 into the inventory, won’t change this equation one bit.
The mention of keeping the F22 beyond the intelligence gathering operations of the Chinese is perceptive. The Chinese sent a DD to the Libyan coastal waters, Undoubtedly for that very purpose.

Sferrin pretty much said it all.

Why use an F-22 when an Eagle, Hornet, or Viper will suffice? It’s the same reason why they shoot up the inventory of Sparrows and Shrikes even though AMRAAMs and HARMs are in the arsenal. They work just fine under the circumstances, and the ordinance would just go to waste otherwise.…I like it when they do that.

I wonder if Gates intends to have the F-22 tools and dies destroyed so future production will be impossible. It’s the best fighter in the world and, in sufficient numbers, guarantees us air superiority for a generation against the Chinese and others. A decision not to procure it strikes me as treasonous.

Compared to libya, The administration has sat on its hands BECAUSE the fact that the Assad regime is one of the most implacable U.S. adversaries in the Middle East. It is Iran’s closest ally; it supplies Iranian weapons to Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Gaza Strip for use against Israe

AHHHH How I bet there are some in the Air Force that wish for the return of the F-117…

Effectivly replace the F-117?? Really..HA the Rapturd wish it could..A fighter it is a bomber it is not…

Anon, really FYI:
One “BB” in an F-22 Engine Bay and the aircraft turns into a Ball of Flame. There is NOTHING survivable about a F-22 in fact nothing. The only truly survivable platforms we have are the A-10A and Apache. I’ll bet the F-22 cannot fly with one Aileron disabled along with one rudder or a combination of one, aileron, rudder and elevator and no hydrulics. There is only one platform that has that capability and true survivability and it is not JSF or F-22 yes, it is the A-10A. So you should really keep the word survivability out of the same sentence with F-22. There is no comparison. Although, the Lockheed Marin propaganda machine is more likely behind such a thought.

The F-15 was hit by a Ground to Air Missile.

The F-22 is a useless Platform. The excuse that the Wing was to far way to deploy is not rational. We depolyed aircraft anywhere in the World, anytime any Place for much longer than 200 days with no problem. The data above makes it seem as if this is some sort of World Record. The only meaning written is that this platform cannot perform its mission. Everyone has know that for years. It is useless just as it little sister the JSF.

The B-2 cannot care as many JDAM’s as the B-52H. Besides we could do the same mission better with a full load of ALCM from XXX Miles away.

Do you have a citation for that?

Uh, from a technological and capabilities perspective, the F-35 is the little sister to the F-22. In an air-to-air role, the F-22 would eat the Lightning’s lunch without even saying it’s sorry.

The F-22 needs some work done in the air-to-ground department, but it’s still a perfectly fine striker against fixed targets.

Um, 24 years old would put production of the F-22 in 1987.
Methinks not.

First off, I recall some Apaches being driven off by some low level militia with small arams in Iraq. IIRC some had to land to assess damage. And the deployment fiasco of Apaches to the Kosivo theater was laughable.

F-22 was NEVER meant to perform CAS in the same vein as the A-10, so any comparison is moot.

You do not know what damage a F-22 can fly with. The F-15 is a soft acft as well but has flown with an entire wing missing (Israeli) and another after being hit (accidentally) by a Sidewinder (over Alaska).

IMHO the F-22 was not tasked due to SecDef Gates’ total disdain for the acft. The F-22 has performed extremely well in exercises against a variety of US and ally acft., most of which really do not want to face it again.

What do you base your conclusion on? What data do you have that proves the F-22 is “useless”? Who is “everybody” who knows this?

On thing we agree on is the reason for non deployment is silly at best and an outright lie at worst.

Yeah, the original requirement was for 700.…that was before bad management of the F-22 program led to skyrocketing costs, and now we don’t have a plane we can procure in sufficient numbers to fulfill its primary purpose: to replace the F-15.

I think a small aspect of the F22 being held back is that within the leadership their is a sense that its too good to use, too valuable to risk, and there are too few to lose any. If you prescribe to the Air Force mantra at that time, that they needed more F22s that logical line of reasoning leads to the simple fact that every last F22 is an invaluable resource and a necessity to the service and the only way they’ll ever use them the way they were intended is if they have more.

That’s why I think its more a matter of the mindset of Air Force leadership thats kept out of these theaters.

Think of how many F22s that could have been purchased with the 11 billion dollar expt loss on barrys government motors.

The F-35A has an internal 20MM…

Really…? Not liking the F-22 = hating America.…really?

25mm GAU-22/A. Unfortunately it only has some 180 rounds of ammunition.

Sorry — you’re plain wrong. They didn’t need the F22; they had plenty of firepower without it and deploying F22 carried risks they could avoid.

They made the right call.

You’re really struggling with this concept aren’t you? There isn’t a mission for the F-22 over there… The Libyan air threat was neutralized on the ground and the Raptor doesn’t have a practical air-to-ground capability… especially not when there are BOMBERS like the B-1 and B-2 already deployed in the area that can drop a lot more precision munitions than 2 JDAMS.

Why does this ridiculous topic keep making an appearence on this site with little to no new information being presented. Raptors MIGHT have made sense in the first few days of a no-fly zone enforcement, but leadership being such as it is right now didn’t get the assets into the area in time. Now there’s simply no legitimate reason to deploy an F-22 squadron into the area.

Matt seems like you are being deliberately dumb. Why spend money buying weapons if you are afraid the enemy might pick up a piece or 2 on the battlefield. Might as well just retire the F-22 now lest the Chinese, Russians, Indians… get their hands on a part or two. The F-22 was not needed to defeat the Libyan fighters, it was needed to to help track down Libyan surface to air radars, and to detroy the SAMs that do along woith them.

We’ve expensed ourselves into a corner. The unit cost of these aircraft keeps us from having the numbers we need. Even p-poor countries can afford umbrellas of SAMS. Down all our “superior” planes in the first wave, and then ya got nuttin. For these kind of ops, ya need A-10s and a whole bunch of T-6s. Yup, arm up the Texans. Doesn’t matter if ya lose 100s every strike, after all, how many more can ya get for the cost of ONE F-22 or F-35? We need more aircraft, not more capable aircraft.

Gunny, the replacement cost of an A-10 is quite dear and no one should think of them as expendable cannon fodder like you do. A wild guess at re-engineering, tooling up for mass production, testing etc. would be 3 years and $3 billion for the first five and after a few dozen low production rate jets, you could get the cost down to $75 million for the next one. That is the replacement cost. Why do you think the A-10 and the T-6 have a chance against modern SAMs if, as you say, the F-22 doesn’t? The A-10 was criticized in 1975 for being so vulnerable to the ZSU-23–4 and the SA-6 that they were useless. Derogatory chatter went unchallenged by air power “experts” until 1991 when A-10s were actually used in combat. It has since verified its niche of usefulness. The major influence for the design features was to stop a massive armor attack in Europe. Even as late as 1990, no one involved with the A-10 could have predicted it would be in daily combat in third world cesspools 20 years later. You had better hope we don’t need F-22 capabilities in the next 20 years because there are not enough of them to matter.

Effectively replace the F-117, what a joke. The F-22 can not carry a 2000 lbs class weapon internally and its stealth is nil from the back. The AF gambled that if they gave up the 117 that they would get more F-22s from congress, they lost on both counts. They didn’t get the 22s and they lost the best all aspect steath attack aircraft they had.


You had better hope we don’t need F-22 capabilities in the next 20 years because there are not enough of them to matter.

Exactly my point. I’m not deliberately equating piliots as cannon fodder, but it would serve to place the pilots on a more equal footing with the foot troops that are. Want to avoid pilot lose? CUAVs all the way.

But there is something to be said for strength through numbers, the only way we won WW II. That’s how the Russians beat back the Germans, how the Chinese caused the stalemate in Korea.

Attrition has always been the winning gameplan. If you want to have any aircraft at the end of the conflict, ya better start out with enough to get production of whatever ramped up.

Your making too much sense,
Who cares if the planes already in theater can do the job cheaper and better?
Who cares if we haven’t lost a single aircraft to enemy fire to date?
Clearly we need the F-22 over Libya because it is cool!

Yep nothing like a SDB from 20,000 FT. It only takes 48 to 65 Seconds for the underweight Bomb to fall that distance. Hope the enemy don’t move while the bomb is on its way. Yet another Waste of Money.

BTW: JSF’s does not have a GUN to straff with or use A-A, and it cannot Take out a Bridge or Large Target with its internal Weapons Bay. Thus the SDB’s. However, if JSF cannot take out a Bridge or Hard Target what good it it? NO GOOD. We could do the same job much cheaper with a UAV. 13 Year Old JSF piece of Crap. Hope it does not have to fly over the equator anytime soon. Look Out below.

NOPE.

NOPE the GUN is not internal. It is held on the Center Line Pylon when loaded. Makes it real stealthy.

There is NO Internal GUN on JSF

Where are you getting these “facts” from? You are just flat out wrong on all accounts.

The F-35 A has an internal gun. The B and C have a center line gun pod on the belly.

And it does have features that tie in to the F-35s LO profile.

The idea here was to keep the expensive equipment away from the fighting and use the beat up
stuff that’s going away!!! The F-22 is way over kill for the Libyan campaign. The F-22 is deployable,
but with what foot print and at what costs? In Asia they have good facilities and can hangar a squadron of F-22’s so that they don’t get dirty!!!

What is wrong with you people? First, there was no mission for the F-22. Second, for those people who say the plane is a waste, please remember Americans put their lives on the line flying combat missions. Their bravery deserves the best the country can produce. The cost of the Raptor is more worth while for the country and the brave pilots v.s. entitlements for lazy obese deadbeats who are looking for handouts.

FAIL!! F-15s equipped with the LANTIRN EO/IR sensor package can carry and drop bombs.
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​L​A​N​T​IRN

No such capability exists for the F-22. It’s strictly for air-to-air missions.

The two best air assets in Libya are the A 10 amd the AC 130. Yes, we need the F 15 and F22, but in many of today’s environments give me the Hog in the morning and Spectre at night.

Oblat,

I know several F-22 pilots personally, and I’d love to see you say that to these Airmen in person. When was the alst time you had you ^&%$ kicked by a chicken? F-22 pilots aren’t just ordinary pilots. They’ve had many hundreds of hours in other jets before they are ever selected to fly the Raptor. You’re a moron and shouldn’t be allowed to participate if you don’t know what you’re talking about!

Maybe if they stopped pouring money down the F-22 and F-35 holes they would have the resources to upgrade the current proven fleet with the latest wiz bang gadgets on the newbie fighters (at a fraction of the cost). Maybe even upgrade the Eagles to the Silent Eagle configuration.

Also, the Eagle started as a pure air to air fighter but it was so effective enemy pilots refused to fight against it. It was then given the added air to ground role which it also excelled in. Why pay so much more for an F-22 which is suited for the first few days of a war or an F-35 with such inadequate capability for after the air defenses are knocked out.

James, the nonsensical political cliches you spew destroy whatever impact your substantive point would have had. If you want to make a point about a military system, you will be effective if you stick to the subject.

Matt, good point.

Sferrin, right on! From some of the comments here, you’d think we’re talking about a high school football game.

Rather rediculous to send an air superiority fighter to Libia where there is no competition! RD

THE BLADE ITSELF INCITES VIOLENCE, NOT THE NEED FOR IT.

Let’s get Michelle to hit it with a bottle of Muscatel and re-name it “The Peace Plane” .….….….…. no guts and no glory.

Oh, and not so fast on the “Going Out of Business Sale” .…… what year were the Avionics modules designed?

The 27th might not know this unless they trained at Luke AFB in Arizona, but a 27th pilot in World War ! became the first American airman to win the Medal of Honor. Flying a Spad 13, 2nd Lt. Frank Luke Jr. shot down 18 German aircraft and balloons in August, 1918, to become the American Ace of Aces. In one day he downed a record three German fighters, a German two-seater and a Balloon. Unfortunately he was killed late in August, but will live forever in my new book, “Lieutenant Hellfire.” For a signed copy when published, watch for the ad in DoD Buzz. (John Romero). Thank you.

Matt — The F-22 issue notwithstanding, thanks for my new favorite quote “stop being deliberately dumb.”

It is so true with so much that we see in the media–by the media and others.

DOD.
Biggest and highest paid Jobs Program on the face of planet earth.
Makes WIC look the size of a pimple on an elephants rear.

Presently, there’s no risk, but if you have been keeping up on the world situation, (China developing a stealth fighter, Russia developing a stealth fighter) you’d see that China, by the year 2016 will probably be top dog economically and will start flexing its muscles. I’d rather keep developing our technology than get caught with our pants down in the future.

What’s the purpose of this story?

Key word “crashed”, not shot down.

Are you speaking English? Can you? If you are an American, please learn the language.

Sorry…But this is BS. Award the practice squadron and ignore the real war fighters. There’s no HONOR in this award. An empty political, cover your butt move. Ridiculous!

A good idea…if people like that were still available. With the time and cultural changes that have passed us by, I don’t think there is a McArthur, Patton or even a Roosevelt around anymore. Leadership is too politically motivated these days…Folks in power and leadership roles are only interested in their own personal gain and wallet. As far as Sec Gates…I wonder how long it will be after his retirement before he’s sitting on the Lockheed board?

You would figure theyd use it ‚but weaint gonna sell any of these babies,theyll be used maybe thats the suprise were waiting on,or are we gonna get new planes on the board to rescue people from natur ramps??

Right on the money.

LM would make a good pitch for just that. LM has the production line, support, logistics and training contracts, but no money to do much more actual production.

We probably have enough Raptors to fight in the current low tech world. A real go, would be the Raptors best enviornment.
Semper Fi

Another comment.
The Raptor fights other aircraft, better than any other countries offerings, to date, and for the next 20 years foreseable. FLAT STATEMENT.

Raptor can take out tanks etc AKA Lybia air to ground lo tech fighting, but the risk, cost, and employement is not logical to the weapons primary use. Think above the clouds not in the dust of the Lybian desert, A 10 country.…
end
Semper fi

It’s called — Deterrent and Face Value. Learn it.

Not King of the skies untill it’s tested in combat.

I am an oldie but a goody! I did not, because the law said! fight in vietnam, But the government shows they cannot manage money! The president want the black holiday to expand the tax wait, the people in air craft building want to sell us 500 more air planes we cannot pay for??? Does any body see an example here.. Think about Hitler and building the greatest army in the world,WHO! Think about the people of God, they marched for seven days, did not kill anyone and won the war. With the right leader we can win !!!

You mean the ones that Obama will sell to all our Enemies??? :-(

Is it just me, or has there been an extraordinarily amount of senior officers that have been forced out of the service or become Desk Jockeys??? Seems like every week there are a few on this site! I never seen anything like this in the 40 yrs I have been out of the service.

Don’t be an idiot! On what is sold and/or given to other countires is not something the President involves himslef with, that’s DoD’s job.

Sounds like more right wing propaganda of their usual BS kind…If you check back on your history, no time have the democrats ever reduced military spending without a good reason. Infact the most reductions came in the late 1990s under a Republican Congress.

We should not cut our prized programs without good reasons, and using the money for body armor is certainly a poor one. Let’s face it we need to get out of the Middle East as it’s been sucking the country dry in expense and patience. Terrorism will always be with us, like cancer, I see no cure ahead in the immediate future. I fear a great loss of face if we presist, missing whatever opportunity to put this mess behind us.

I’m sure they are really really tough in theory — the difference is that a F-18 pilot shows up for the fight.

“The f-22 is by far the worst thing this country has ever wasted money on”

You can only say that because the JSF hasn’t been deployed yet.

>If you Don’t like it here in America you can move to a different country,

I have a better idea how about we just export all the F-22 fan boys to Mexico. Make men of them for a change.

3 wars now show. Case closed.

F35 is the wave of the future for all of our air superiority. Once it gets into full production it will be all that anyone wants.

BTW forget about fighting China, how ridiculous it that? Not only can they not exist without us, we can’t exist without them, we’re tied at the proverbial hip. I can just see fighting a war with them where practically all our technology is so rooted or dependent from their support. Given this nasty scenario, how long do you think we could hold out before we fall under our own weight of collapsing technology?

Here are some other facts you need to know, China rivals our average wage labor costs at a 20 to 1 ratio. The average pay in China is about $1.00/hr versus America at $20/hr. Last year China’s GDP was estimated at $9 trillion versus America at $15 trillion. Some might say hey were still ahead of the game! NOT! Taking into account this 20 to 1 ratio and applying it to our GDP the abstract dollar comparison in GDP is more like $180 trillion to America’s measly $15 trillion. So if China is any way attacked by us with a serious amount of damage, who’s going to pick up this tremendous amount of product support? Japan already offloads so much to China already and along with its recent earthquake, many say will just bolster China for even more offloading.

So all in all, fighting China is purely a fool’s errand to say the least, so stop worrying about a fruitless and world ending scenario.

How does the F-22 compare to the Russian Mig?That’s the question we all want answered

It’s not just how can we make cheap enough planes to do the job, rather what technology can we introduce that can give rise to a whole new generation of fighters. With STOVL the F35 becomes as close as we can to a highly maneuverable land anywhere vehicle. Other than Helicopters and Harriers and the white elephant Osprey we have little to address this very important air superiority need. The Harrier is way too gone to resurrect any longer and the Osprey is again a flop, and helicopters can’t match the speeds needed to reach a designated target on time. The F35 meets all of these needs and as we continue to build it, will share in future adaptations and templates for ALL our air fighting. Although it may be costly today, continued support should bring these costs down while opening up the door for a whole new fighting force. In other words F35 is the best bang for your future military money, no doubt about it.

People said the same things 30 yrs ago about the F-15 as they are saying now about the f-22 , its to expensive ‚not needed , ect…
but no one would say that about the F-15 now, and in 30 yrs they will be saying that the F-22 was the best fighter ever the only difference is that we bought 600 F-15s and only 186 F-22s (big mistake)

Oblat, you prove over & over again that you are an idiot. Perhaps you should move to Mexico or any other country…just leave America and shut your ignorant trap! Are you even an American…or just working here only to take your money with you to your mother land???

The F-22 Program was cancelled. The rational was $100,000,000.00 cost overrun, 15 year development, poor software and OFP configuration, no connectivity or interoperability with any other platform, high logistics cost per flight hour, no-capability to take out high value targets, e.g. bridges without hanging external pylons, no stealth capability due to high threat IADS and Aircraft RADAR OFP that can Find, Fix, and shoot down stealth platforms. I suppose the folks in Texas will not give up. This is a Dead Platform. Time to purchase something new without a MAN in the cockpit. Human interace in a fighter is no longer needed. If a man was needed then F-22 would have been a two Seater instead of a one seater. NO on person could handle all the data and information flow. Those Lockheed Boys are so Stupid.

There is no doubt that the F-22 is a far superior fighter than any other in our inventory. The F-15 had an 80–0 record against other fighters yet I know of exercises done between F-15s and F-22s in which the F-22 would take on 4 F-15s at one time and win. The F-15s could not get a lock on the F-22. Anyone who has done history on war since WW1 knows that air superiority is a prime factor in winning. Yes, the F-22 is expensive but if bought in larger quantities the cost of each goes down. Why build an inferior plane such as the JSF F-35 which probably will be vulnerable to the newer Russian, Chinese and European air superiority fighters when we have the best in the F-22.

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