The Army’s fleet of luxury vehicles

The Army’s fleet of luxury vehicles

Here’s a novel observation from Sandra Erwin of National Defense magazine: These days, even the Army’s basic-transportation Humvees, MRAPs and other vehicles — hardly exemplars of passenger comfort, and delivered without chilled champagne refrigerators — can cost more than a Bentley. Not only that, the Army could pay $180,000 to upgrade a single Humvee for which it originally paid $50,000. Multiply that times 60,000 vehicles and you could be talking about some real money.

The brass is in a bind: Should it assume the Army’s vehicles of tomorrow will need to protect soldiers against the same kinds of improvised explosive devices that have taken such an awful toll in Iraq and Afghanistan? If so, that means bulkier, heavier vehicles with more protection — and bigger price tags.

Erwin summed it up:


Not able to predict what IEDs future enemies may use against U.S. forces, vehicle buyers face tough tradeoff decisions among weight, cost and protection, RAND analysts noted. And no matter what protection is acquired, there is no guarantee it will work. “Technology-based solutions to mitigate vulnerability are expensive, whereas the enemy’s countermeasures are relatively cheap,” the study said. Both the Army and Marine Corps have been weighing whether to fix or buy new as they map out their future truck fleets, but it appears increasingly likely that they will do more fixing than buying.

The truck that is being designed to replace the Humvee — the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle — is coming in at higher than expected costs. The original estimate for JLTV was approximately $250,000 per vehicle. The latest number from the Army is $300,000 per vehicle, and some outside estimates have exceeded $400,000, according to RAND. The large investment planned to refurbish the current Humvee fleet suggest that the military may be scaling back future JLTV purchases and expects to keep the Humvee going for a couple more decades.

As always, there’s a political element at work here, too. The Army watched carefully as the Marines fought to save their beloved Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle — and lost. One key reason for congressional skepticism on the EFV was that its design pre-dated the IED era, and it wasn’t equipped with updated protection against roadside bombs for when it finished swimming ashore and drove up on to the beach. This made the Marines exasperated. First they explained that they would never use the EFV anyplace where the bad guys had time to set up IEDs, then they said they would add a bolt-on armor kit that an EFV’s crew could use if they’d be spending a lot of time driving around as a normal armored personnel carrier. Pretty thin, skeptics concluded.

The lesson for the Army is that it daren’t try to field new or upgraded vehicles without IED and crew protections. That means part of the decision has already been made here, and even tomorrow’s “light” utility vehicles may be heavier than ever, and with price tags to match.

Join the Conversation

This IED focus is the death for power projection capability — exactly what Barry Obama desires:

A meals on wheels UN support fleet. Go for nothing but feeding America’s enemies and barrys friends like Iran hati and Syria.

this is all so stupid and needs to stop. the more they bragg about our armor protection the bigger the IED’s get. We told the brass from the begining this was going to happen and now look at it, Now the enemy is even putting remote triggers on burried RPG’s since they are so plentiful and cheap. 1st get the ground pounders less dependent on driving every where, these funds should had been spent on air mobile in the first place and would had saved a lot of lives. Despite what a lot of experts will claim from their ultimate superior knowledge from watching blackhawk down, it is not that easy to hit a high flying helo with an rpg. I was there and hundreds of rpgs were fired in the air that day — could had just as easily been downed by a lucky rifle shot as well. They just need to replace the humvee with the 4 door jeeps with mercedes inline turbo diesels that should cost no more than 40K each max (really 30K since we own them right now) and be done with it. Use tanks and apc’s in urban areas as they were intended and you dont need armored trucks.

interesting stuff here on blast protection testing … if the IEDs do get bigger are we even testing vehicles with that in mind? http://​insidedefense​.com/​I​n​s​i​d​e​-​t​h​e​-​A​r​m​y​/​I​n​s​i​d​e-t…

You really think that by throwing “Haiti” into the lot you fooled anyone with your “israeli” agenda?

What happened to any “Active Protection Systems” for heavy land vehicles (“validated by ‘israelis’ ”), to “shot detection and location systems” and to those “anti-I.E.D.-blast-wave-airbags” and other Sci-Fi-like gimmicks everyone was talking about only 1 — 2 years ago? Back with the feet on the ground? Is the clown show over now?

I remember we used to read and comment on these “D.o.D. Buzz” and “Defensetech” articles as if any of these technologies were meant for real, despite their outright grotesque C.A.D. “demonstrations”, or because some of them actually got paid for. Maybe we were just being plain gullible and stupid.

In the future it’s better to be a bit more cynical about anything that gets announced again as “instantaneously battle-decisive, table-turning M.I.C. wizardry”, especially after a 8 years long double defeat…

Seems to me it would be helpful if the system were designed from the ground-up to be armored, yet the armor were modular. Armored HMMWV’s, never designed to be so heavy, continually break under their own weight, particularly on rough terrain. Be nice if the vehicle developed could be used for training without the weight of armor, but it could be added when needed during deployment. This modularity would extend vehicle life and help in ease of armor upgrades also.

Both soft-kill and hard-kill active defense systems are still in development in many countries. I don’t know the current status of Raytheon’s “Quick Kill” program but I would hope the United States has some such systems in development.

The Israelis are already in the process of fielding Trophy. Supposedly it successful intercepted a RPG in actual field conditions awhile ago.

How have we been defeated in Iraq? Also when we do leave Afghanistan it will be our decision and the country will remain the world’s biggest UAV range for another decade or so.

Part 1 / 2

According to the article above, a better-armoured Hamwi costs three times as much as a regular Hamwi (180.000 $ instead of 60.000 $).

Why so much?

1) The redoubled armour plates can’t weigh as much as two entire, additional Hamwis. Some other Hamwi parts are pretty heavy and sophisticated (and expensive), too. For example the engine.

2) Even if the new armour weighed as much as two entire Hamwis together (resulting weight issues apart) : Armour plating (homogenous steel) is cheap! Not even a few, thick, flat slabs of TITANIUM ( = merely a few square meters of titanium!) explain that price difference of 120.000 $ !
And covering a Hamwi (theoretically) completely with level V “Dragonskin” bullet-vests ( = heterogeneous armour, unit price ~ 4.000 $) can’t cost 120.000 $ , either! (Even if it did: My guess is that the chosen, upgraded Hamwi armour will consist of some cheaper, homogenous metal sheets)

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

3) So… you also need a stronger = more expensive engine for all that “heavy” extra armour? But the engine’s price is only PART of any Hamwi’s entire unit price, and not even a TRUCK engine or a TRACTOR engine for a Hamwi costs an additional 120.000 $ = as much a nice piece of REAL ESTATE !

Sooo, if it’s not the armour, if it’s not the engine, then what exactly makes a thick(er)-skinned Hamwi cost THRICE as much?? Just asking, just waiting for some plausible answers, not insinuating anything (yet) …

The text above doesn’t forward any explanation for the J.L.T.V.‘s unit price increase from 250.000 $ to 300.000 $ – 400.000 $ either (“more armour”, again?).

Irrelevant: Does any of the new, 120.000-$-armours resist E.F.P.s (the deadliest class of I.E.D.s) and anti-matériel rifles, or only pistol rounds? (R.P.G.s …?) (Do the glass panels…?) (Etc., etc. …)

FFB,

A bare bones 1990s HMMWV costs about $60,000. The more expensive modern vehicles come with radios, air conditioning, counter-IED equipment, fire suppression systems, better suspension, bigger engines, light sets, some have sirens, and oh by the way, the $60k vehicle had canvas doors and roof!

What is a Hamwi?

Also add ballistic glass, fully armored electrical turrets, intercom communications in the vehicle, thicker bumpers, and built-in tow bar. The M998’s canvas doors couldn’t have weighed more than 30 pounds a piece, the canvas roof was removable, and the windshield was Plexiglas. Those doors now weigh several hundred pounds a piece and are a few inches thick. All the glass is now bullet proof. The point to all of this is we’re not talking about a minor improvement. There are massive differences between the two vehicles priced in the article.

It is what it is. All the people complaining about the price are not even going to have come anywhere near being in harms way. The men we ask to fight and risk death for our country should have the best possible equipment. I’m tired of pouring money into art almost no one wants to even look at much less own, TV, plays, symphonies, and movies that don’t have enough people interested to support themselves. And what about all the buildings and bridges built by politicians from them to put their names on that have little or no use. And worst of all; all the money poured into assistance programs for people that have no plan to do anything but graze at the public trough.
Defense of our nation, and the best weapons possible for the men who defend us is the primary obligation of this country. With out our military the USA would have been gone since 1812. Before that if you count the Continental Army. An Army that politicians cared little about and almost brought to failure; were it not for the caliber of some of those men.
Shut up; bid the job, and write the check. And worry about jars of urine with religious symbols in them later.

Yeah, boots on the ground. How about good ole air cav? get some lambro jeeps and stay off road.

Here we have the typical sense of entitlement of the military welfare queen — Money is no issue because it only comes from the American taxpayer.

The American taxpayer won’t have to worry about taxes being paid to the current form of government with the military. Defense is one of the original expenses associated with forming a country. Once people like you become so fat, lazy, and timid to defend yourself much less pay an equip someone to do it for you; you come just that much closer to finding out what Franklin meant all those years ago.

The JLTV program has several competitors, please educate yourself.

Funny thing is, the Pentagon was warned that the Humvees would become rolling coffins is used in an high intensity area like Iraq & Afghanistan. They buried the report for a decade. Yet not one single person was court marshaled over this, reduced in rank or even told to stand in the corner. The issue just quietly went away.

In addition, several countries, South Africa specifically have immense experience in dealing with the similar conditions our soldiers are facing. They developed several vehicles during apartheid to defeat mines being used against the government. But instead of using a proven vehicle, somebody wanted to built their own.

The military brass at the Pentagon is out of touch with what the troops need. Body armor shortages, inappropriate vehicles for the theater… An Air Force that wants to kill the best dam tank killer and most fear tank killer, the A-10 because it’s not glamorous super-sonic jet. Their proposed replacement? The A16. An F16 fitted with a 30mm gun pod? The F15, undefeated in air to air combat. It was suggested that additional updates, thrust vectoring engines and forward canards could keep the Eagle on top for another decade. But the Air Force needed a stealth fighter. Why, because someone else might make one.
The price of sustaining our war machine cannot be maintained.
We are not the worlds policeman. We can’t afford to be. I’m prior service and I love my country, our constitution and way of life and would happily make anyone who tries to take that away from me die for their cause. But currently, our enemy is us or our elected leaders anyway.

You don’t have to build enough to equip the whole Army, just enough for a deployed force and then rotate into the IED proof vehicles as units come and go from a war zone. Have a few back in the states to train with,then go to your friendly chevy dealer and buy a few thousand trucks and tahoes (4x4 ) . That would help our economy, and the budget.

To the men and WOMEN we ask to fight.

I think the problem is that Americans feel embarrassed to have such a poorly performing Military. Full of self-entitlement thinking such as here. It has become an organization whos primary aim is to make increasingly pitiful excuses for losing wars in smaller and smaller countries.

Where did you serve Oblatski? You’re mothers basement playing Call of Duty doesn’t count I’m afraid.

The JLTV is designed from the ground up to be armored. It has two armor kits. The A-Kit is bare bones small arms protection. The B-Kit will protect against RPGs. Both kits have a V-Hull, but this is TD Phase vehicles only. EMD Phase vehicles from my company will have a bolt on V-Hull. The JLTV will be able to be driven in garrison for training with or without armor.

We could deploy the best equipment that the taxpayer can build and buy, we could develop all kinds of great stuff. But it’s all for not if the “rules of engagement” tie our peoples hands behind their backs and make them hop on one foot. And this IS WHAT OUR EVER SO POLITICALLY CORRECT representatives demand. Take off the gloves and it would be over in less than one year. I say send the Congress and Senators and the President giving them the guns and ammo and grenades and bring our Soldiers home. But I’m just a old Vietnam Vet that has been through all this before. Our enemies are in “DC” in high priced suits and skirts.

I was wrong, and you are wrong: According to the article above,

1) the basic Hamwi costs 50.000 $ (not 60.000 $ , as you claim),

but

2) its UPGRADE ALONE ANOTHER 180.000 $ ! (I thought that was the total price of the upgraded Hamwi)

Which makes a total of 230.000 $ for the upgraded Hamwi = almost the price of a more robust, bare-bones J.L.T.V. .

And I also think the text attributed this cost rise to additional armour, not to genuine leather upholstery and other luxurious amenities, as you claim.

Part 1 / 6

Sometimes, when I watch the U.S. Army’s wheeled frontline vehicles becoming heavier and heavier in an attempt to survive the I.E.D. threat, I wonder whether we’re returning to the origins of “light” Infantry transporters – as well as to an ideal solution to the modern U.S. Army’s technical / finantial problems: The odd-looking, highly mobile, cheap, mass-produced half-track.

Any modern details easily fit into it.

(Continued)

Part 2 / 6

In World War Two,

1) the British Army (in all war theaters!) rode in toy-size, rattling, low-silhouette Bren half-tracks and Loyd carriers to the front (so-called “Universal Carriers”, because they could also transport cargo and tow trailers and float),

2) U.S. Army infantrymen and Marines either walked in a single, well-behaved goose line or drove in (endlessly derivated) M2s and M3s / M5s through Africa, Oceania, Europe and Asia (Korea),

and

3) the Nazis were equally giddy about half-tracks, to whom they owed their fast, vast conquests (otherwise their Infantry would have been separated from their fast advancing Armour and couldn’t occupy and defend recently conquered ground).

A nice, illustrated Web-page about these historical forefathers of modern-day A.P.C.s, I.F.V.s and all-terrain vehicles:
http://​www​.lulu​.com/​i​t​e​m​s​/​v​o​l​u​m​e​_​6​7​/​8​1​8​6​0​0​0​/​8​1​869…

(Continued)

Part 3 / 6

Now imagine if these enviable, endless fleets of half-tracks had cost our 20th Century Armies as much (in relative prices) as an armoured Hamwi today (180.000 $ per unit) or even as a J.L.T.V. (almost half a million $ per unit!). Under these circumstances, does it surprise anyone that the U.S. Army even plans to buy
1) C.O.T.S. vehicles
and
2) only a few thousand M.R.A.P.s
to replace all their 190.000 Hamwis (total number according to AM General) and 260.000 military trucks?

Would the armies of yore ever have been able to acquire

26.000 Loyd carriers,
57.000 Bren Universal Carriers,
13.500 M2s,
41.000 M3s / M5s,
12.000 “Sdkfz 7s”,
22.500 “Sdkfz 11s”,
6.628 “SdKfz 250s”,
15.252 “Sdkfz 251s”,
etc. etc.,

to win the Second World War with these modern unit prices?

DID THEY HAVE TO ??

Obviously no, on both accounts!

(Continued)

Part 4 / 6

Nobody doubts the U.S. American M.I.C.‘s ability to produce great quantitites and qualities of vehicles. Given enough billions and decades of delay, even Lockheed Martin will want to “diversify its business” and come up with a V.T.O.L. M3 (“for the Marines”), no kidding! (Do you still remember BAE’s laughable contender for the GCV Infantry Fighting Vehicle, with more turrets, masts, antennas and periscopes on the turret roof than a nuclear submarine? Those Brits…)

So, why does the last version of the Hamwi HAVE TO cost 180.000 $ , if in 1944 Willy’s Jeep (635.000 units built) cost only 2.500 $ per copy??? (Some books even claim < 500 $ !!!)

Whatever it is that drives the Hamwi’s price up so much, and so unnecessarily, it has to get out of the vehicle.

Or N-O-T ? On second thought… aren’t you rather HAPPY , almost THANKFUL for paying such usurious prices? Shouldn’t you even discuss how to make the Hamwis… more expensive?!

(Continued)

Part 5 / 6

What makes a modern-day Hamwi and J.L.T.V. etc. so ridiculously expensive is the U.S.A.‘s DESPERATE attempt to integrate all possible, existing – including ALL INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE – technologies into each single land vehicle, in order to reduce their human losses in combat – and especially during the ensuing occupation – ideally to zero. Even their losses in ambushes where bombs explode all around! The exorbitant prices of all these new “M-ATVs”, “Cougars”, “Tactical Trucks” and other M.R.A.P.s directly reflect Hyper-Power Nr. 1’s (amusing) hyper-sensibility to each single dead grunt in a war / occupation. Even if he isn’t an important warrior, but just a worthless, no-good, rear-line truck driver. Or just a war-opposing draftee, can you imagine that?? Or a rotten female!!!!
The U.S.A. may very well stay entirely out of wars as long as they haven’t enough vehicles to offer the shy invaders inside total immunity against dying! One day they’ll just send… “drones”.

(Continued)

Part 6 / 6

As you see, in the end this whole technological / finantial debate around unaffordable, modestly I.E.D.-resistant vehicles isn’t really about getting 3 – 4 infantrymen quickly from A to B (Quickly? Today’s guerilla wars aren’t “over quickly”). In reality it all boils down to one simple, linear equation which the modern U.S. American brass HATES to solve:

Pay like hell… or die like hell.

It would be cheaper to make the country a crystal glass parking lot for our oil rigs,and vacation Rv’s
Paisano

Now this is what I call over-charging the Government and screwing the tax payers. Please, Let TAACOM take over this, forget these so called contractors, $180.000 to upgrade? You got to be kidding!!!!

Deal is we already have a but ton of HUMVEES in inventory — yeah they suck pretty much, but they could be converted by the depots to be a good dependable vehicle, and what they should had been from the start. the suspension and engine/trans are the weak links — easy fix = dana 60 solid axles fron & rear with dual shocks on each corner and 1 ton leaf springs, replace 6.5 eng & 4L80 trans with a cummins turbo & allison trans. stretch the frame 12″ in the cargo area and box the frame. make 2 versions 1 being a quad cab truck that you can mount mortars or recoiless rifles in the back, and the second being a wagon (the current fast backs are a waste of space). This whole conversion including parts would be less than 50K ea and make them useable (more so than the original) for another 20 to 30 years with less maintenance and upkeep.

When it comes to the HMMWV debate, there is always a trade-off between protection and mobility. These MRAPs while useful on the streets of Iraq, aren’t nearly as mobile as lighter HMMWVs.

We built our own MRAPs because our industry had the capability to. Truck manufactuers were able to successfully meet the demand.

The USAF originally wanted to phase out the A-10 based on studies suggesting a faster aircraft would be signifcantly more survivable when used against the Soviets. These studies were wrong, but either way the A-16 was proposed. The A-7F was also proposed, which actually may have been a good aircraft. When the Cold War ended the USAF was going to fight tooth and nail to keep their “fast jets” before other aircraft.

We need the F-22. The apperance of the fighters like the T-50 and J-20 are proof enough of that. We should have built more F-22s and it should be an ongoing development for upgrades.

Actually the original HMMWV (the M998) and the current uparmored version (M1151) are 2 completely different vehicles. The only thing the share is the LOOK similar in appeaarance. You cannot take the original M998 and convert it to an M1151. You might as well try to convert a M2 Bradley into a M1A2 Abrams. Hence the drastic difference in cost. One is a light truck, the other is an armored vehicle.

To the poster “Wlilliam C.”

————————————

Part 1 / 3

You wrote: “Also when we do leave Afghanistan it will be our decision…”

It certainly will be!

Leaving Korea, Biafra, Vietnam and Somalia were also “your decisions”. And boys, am I sad you didn’t stay back forever, enjoying the immense benefits from all your “victories”…

(Continued)

Part 2 / 3

You wrote: “…and the country will remain the world’s biggest UAV range for another decade or so.”

No it won’t. After your “voluntary” departure (snicker), the international community will

1) lose its last patience for your retarded “G.W.O.T.” and your “israeli” agenda

and

2) instantly and unanimously recognize Iran-dominated Iraq and Talibanistan (to the extent its Taliban leaders even wish any ties with “institutions in the outside World” – these natural born victors have so many friends among these international institutions right now… Maybe with tribally related Pakistan).

3) The U.N.O. (or simply Russia and China) will also FORBID you to fire a single pistol shot against a neighbour country that is at complete, external peace again with everybody else (because, as you know, “terrorists” don’t exist – never did, anywhere), and with which they pretend to close many profitable (almost strategic) deals in the future.

(Continued)

Part 3 / 3

4) Firing missiles at countries you definitively lost your last interest in will also make you look exactly like perfect psychopaths that never stop shooting at civilians without Armed Forces.

To sum up: Time and luck is on victorious Afghanistan’s side, not on yours. I can’t even remember when was the last time you U.S. Americans chose the right ( = moral, righteous, sensible) side in any military or diplomatic conflict, such is your country’s awkwardness and civilizational poverty! If you want to understand how incompatible you are with peace, stability, pragmatism and the rest of Mankind, just ask yourself how many % of all your Armed Forces are genuinely “defensive” !

To the poster “BOOMER”

———————————-

Part 1 / 3

You wrote: “This whole conversion including parts would be less than 50K ea and make them useable (more so than the original) for another 20 to 30 years with less maintenance and upkeep.”

Unit price versus life cycle costs… Are you sure you included everything in your bill? How on Earth did you manage to bring Humvees and “another 20 to 30 years with less maintenance and upkeep” into one and the same phrase? The hamwis were NEVER maintenance-friendly, which is one of the U.S. Army’s biggest headache still today! For example: It takes 37 hours to change a hamwi’s engine – but only 4 hours to change a “Leopard 2″ main battle tank’s engine, which is even heavier than a Humvee!

(Continued)

Part 3 / 3

Another factor that increases the hamwis’ life-cycle costs is their enormous fuel consumption, which lies at around 20 liters – 50 liters of fuel (diesel) per 100 km. In comparison to that, Caterpillar’s second-biggest bulldozer, the “D10”, weighs 77,87 tons, has a 700 horsepower engine and consumes only 59 liters of D1 and D2 diesel (offroad diesel) per 100 km!!! And how do you pretend to improve ( = reduce, avoid) THAT running cost – even without the addition of MORE armour?

Because I replaced the highend items that are always breaking or blowing up with more efficient — powerfull — and dependable units (suspension/ engine/ trans)

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement