Can anything stop China’s super-fighter?

Can anything stop China’s super-fighter?

If you haven’t already seen it, check out The Jamestown Foundation’s provocative report about China’s J-20 super-fighter that John mentioned on Friday. Its author declares the J-20 will completely change the balance of power in Asia because it gives China the ability to penetrate any other nation’s air defenses with impunity. No other fighter in the neighborhood can match the J-20, it says, and its range and speed mean it could attack American bases in South Korea, Japan and Guam — or any other targets it so so chose — and there’s nothing anyone can do.

The report concludes:

The strategic choices available to the United States and its allies for dealing with the J-20 are very limited; such is the potency of all aircraft combining stealth and supersonic cruise capabilities. These distill down to the deployment of large numbers of F-22A Raptor fighters in the region, and the development and deployment of “counter-stealth” radars operating in the HF, VHF, and UHF radio-frequency bands. Funding for the production of the F-22A was stopped in 2009, following an intensive political effort by Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates. There is no program to fund the development and volume production of “counter-stealth” radars.


The incumbent U.S. Administration has thus committed itself politically to a path in developing air power for the U.S. armed services and allied air forces [that is] predicated wholly on future opponents operating obsolete Soviet era air defense weapons and fighters. The unveiling of the Russian T-50 PAK-FA and Chinese J-20 over the last two years has not produced any significant changes in U.S. planning, which may challenge the United States and its Pacific Rim allies’ strategic advantage in conventional air power.

Gates says that’s not so — that the F-22 and the F-35 are more than a match for any upstart new-generation fighters that may appear in Asia or elsewhere, and that besides, the U.S. and its allies will be flying hundreds or thousands of F-35s by the time China is producing J-20s in significant numbers. Not only that, look at how difficult it has been for the U.S. to develop both of its fifth-gen fighters: The F-22s are grounded, the F-35 is behind schedule, and the cost of both has been astronomic. Mightn’t the Chinese encounter their own challenges with cost, design or schedule?

What do you think?

Join the Conversation

Gates can disagree all he wants. While I think this report is a bit sensational, keep in mind Sec Gates was the one who said it would be at least 2015 years before the PRC had a stealth fighter prototype and 20 years before they could field them. He’s too enamored with UAVs/RPAs and his pet, the F-35.

We need to stop pursuing Don Quixote fiascos into foolishly risky technology development, most recently the F-35. The industry-business-model-Pentagon-career-friendly insane acquisition strategy represents the fallacy of pursuing operational excellence diminishing returns at ridiculous costs to the detriment of smart strategy. F-22 late, overbudget. F-35 late, overbudget. Carriers, subs, space systems late, overbudget. We need to get cost & schedule under control before priding ourselves on our superior technology. For the billions of dollars and years lost in these foolish endeavors, we could have a much more capable, sustainable, and effective force structure, and better STRATEGIC results. The moral consequences of failed acquisitions is even more damaging.

Meh. Sounds like someone wants more $$$

This isn’t really new. Carlos Kopp is from Air Power Australia, they have been claiming that the sky is falling since the J-20 was just rumors.

The Chinese are naturally going to brag and overstate the capabilities of this fighter to a degree, but it still shows that they are moving forward. In the past 15 years the Chinese have gone from an air force that largely consisted of MiG-21 copies to producing their own 4th generation fighters. This J-20 is probably a step behind the PAK-FA and definitely the F-22 and F-35, but it still shows we can’t rest on our laurels.

Modern AESA radars will probably be able to detect the J-20 at a moderate range but it will be quite a challenge for most SAM systems and fighters in the region to deal with. Hence the reason the Japanese and South Koreans have shown interest in procuring 5th generation fighters.

This platform will be far superior to our JSF and F-22. We need longer-range lethal A-A Missiles that have a PK Rate Greater than 5% on a Clear day. Yeap, good old waste of money Stealth has cost us dearly. We will never catch-up with China now.

But it existing no longer an open 5 Gen Line from how the Japanese and the South Koreans can buy his 5 Gen Fighter. And the Russians PAK FA is no really comparable with the J20, the J20 appears more sophisticated them the PAK FA and the Chinese have simple the money to made the J20 better them fighters like the PAK FA.

And the J20 most not be so stealthy like the F22 why there potential enemy’s like the US our japan have simple not a so sophisticated Air Defense like the Chinese our Russia. With over words the Chinese must not beet Systems like the S400 or the HQ15 to penetrated the Enemy Air Space as the F22 cloths should, they most just can bet Systems like PAC2 and legacy fighters like the F16,F2 our F15K, J. The Chinese have simple not the same opportunities to overcome.

The US has to get more off the Weapons what they have developed. For example the USAF most buys more F22 and more F16 in Block 60 and more SSNs and DDGs the problem of the US is the habit to developed ever new weapons instead of to buy what is ready for production. The US spent more tem four times more Money for military investigation what they real spent to buy Weapons. For example the money what was spending for the developing of the F35 you can buy more them 200 additional F22 our 15 DD51 our 15 Virginia Class Submarines our 380 F15SE or about 500 F18 E/F. The US spent simple t mouth money for everything with the exception of the procurement and modernization of his Weapons, for example the F22 modernization is unfunded the Plan to upgrade the F15 Fleet with ASEA Radars is also unfunded and to late.

Sorry for my bad English, I give my best to get better.

Thanks for your comments. I agree with what you are saying. Our current acquisition approach of taking decades to develop weapon systems, to then find that they are underperforming, late, and overbudget, is an absolute insane, unsustainable approach. We violate our own acquisition and systems engineering practices and produce unacceptable results. The problem is the pursuit of too high risk technology in major defense acquisition programs. It is hard enough to integrate the current state of operationally suitable technology. Developing and integrating technology concurrently is a recipe for disaster. Our leaders are closeminded, corrupt, and weak thinkers. Viable alternatives like your suggestion are cast aside by our bullheaded leadership. Our leaders display a systemic pattern of corrupt moral failure.

what is your nationality?

Gates should stay away from predictions/rosy projections. It seems like the entire defense department is overly focused on best case predictions and hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil methodologies. How about we try putting down the models and projections and focus on the real world?

We (the U.S.) already have radars in existence now that can detect Raptors.

ah therein lies the rub. Senior leaders have nothing to gain by being realistic, except possibly being true to their integrity, which is in short supply in America these days. They’d rather everything be dressed up as pretty as possible. They’ll be living in comfortable retirement before the consequences of their poor decisions catch up with the people left holding the bag. And they can blame the results on poor execution of “the acquisition system” (thus, resulting in newer iterations of bureaucratic acquisition reform initiatives) if they even cared.

@William C

Wouldn’t you consider it a lot worst that the chinese are much further ahead of where we previously thought than the actually capabilities of the J-20? If the J-20 can be produced in numbers much higher than our current number of F-22’s (not particularly hard for china) it doesn’t need to be better than the Raptor especially if the J-20 outnumbers the F-22 4-to-1 or more in the air.

The U.S. has been planning for the wrong kind of enemy and instead of having 4+ years to reverse course we are already behind and lack the financial means or organizational capability to change course rapidly.

Do we really have a choice anymore in selling the F-22 to our allies?

No time for it mister, the Chinese are coming for God’s sake!!

@VetCostAnalyst

Good point.

@Drake1

Interesting, is there a source for that? Honestly, I love to learn more.

Anti-Stealth Sensors to Tackle Chinese and Russian LO Designs http://​www​.aviationweek​.com/​a​w​/​b​l​o​g​s​/​d​e​f​e​n​s​e​/​i​nde…

@Drake1

awesome! Thank you sir.

@halcyon
30 years after the raptor was borne, you imagine never have change?
Not only US radars can see the f-22, i europe to.Why no f-22 make train with all techno on with european country (they need cut their radars…not one joke), why no f-22 in US base in europe? why no f-22 over libya? because foreign aircraft was here, and if the world know than the f-22 isn’t furtive, imagine the poor f-35 and his export possibility…
With old technology, “stealth” aircraft have adavantage, but modern technology, just the number make the différence

We will likely be able to detect future Chinese and Russian aircraft. U.S. and European defense companies are already on it.

@momomimamo

Some of your post I don’t fully understand but just to be clear I’m pretty sure things have changed since the creation of the F-22 but I was interested in reading the same information that Drake1 had read. He is a lot more informed about military technology than I am. It is my understanding that Doppler radar and some kind of large array of simple mini-radars over a large area has been able to locate stealth aircraft.

I’m actually a big believer that stealth is not a be all to end all technology. I guess on that point you and I would fully agree.

1.The F-22 would likely have every advantage over the J-20. Too bad we don’t have more.

2.The F-35 will have to rely on its greater stealth and better sensors since it will likely be at a major disadvantage in all traditional air-to-air fighter capabilities. That should give it a first shot advantage (at least initially). So if that stealth advantage is eroded over time (better ways to detect and track) the F-35 advantage may turn to disadvantage. It is also very limited in its internal carriage capability. The bigger J-20 may have a major advantage here too. The J-20s, if it can survive the AMRAAM first shots, may be able to overwhelm the F-35s with multiple shots and disengage as needed.

continued
3.Another major factor to figure in is the weapons. The USAF is looking at a new air-to-air missile which could dramatically change the balance. And what role will DE weapons and new ECM techniques play in the 2025 timeframe?
4.Other factors could also be big players like whose AWACS are working, whose datalinks are working etc.
5.Still, you’d like to have the kinematic advantage, like the F-22 has, to limit the time you can be engaged/tracked, allow greater flexibility in choosing when/where to engage, and to help you disengage if required. The J-20 will likely have those advantages over the F-35. The F-35 will never have them and will likely become more and more vulnerable over time.

@BradM

Ultimately, we can only guess at the answers to your questions but I for one would love to hear what people think the correct number of F-22’s we need in a world dominated by J-20’s, Su-35Mk1’s, PAK-FA’s, and MiG 35’s.

I’m sorry, I was unable to read this article because the Soviets killed everyone with the MiG-31.

Oh no wait, that’s right, I died back in the 1950s because they used their massive bomber fleets to overwhelm our air defenses.

You’re a quack! ;-) remember, even if we never fight China or the Russians they sell their military equipment on the export market and we would likely be fighting their “stuff”. :-)

I read an article that the Russians plan to make 1,000 PAK-FA’s and sell 400 to India, 400 for their own Air Force, and sell 600 on the export market.

Are there any plans to have armed stealth UAVs paired with F-35s and F-22s flying ahead of them to give the air to air missiles greater range and a better chance for a first shot?

Yes, I remember when their undetectable diesel submarines fired all their supercavitating rocket-propelled torpedoes.

Only the Russians can deliver 1,400 planes to end users, while only planning to build 1,000.

Typo, 200 each for India and Russia.

See: http://​in​.reuters​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​2​0​1​0​/​0​3​/​1​2​/​i​d​I​N​I​ndi…

The plane isn’t everything. Even if the J20 is built in significant enough quantities, there is nothing showing the maturity of different subsytems and weapon designs. Both needed if they want to out gun us.

More fear mongering from the China group. The fact is China main fighter is still the MiG-21 dispute newer SU-27ish aircraft in its inventory. I and The J-20 lacks vectored thrust and the maneuverability of the F-15 or F-22. It lacks a large weapons load to maintain its stealth capability. Its a piece of junk like most Chinese weapons.

Are you an expert to be stating that the “sky is falling”.….

Soooo.…how much is enough?? I can read the “talk”, but don’t see any real “assessments”.….or associated “cost” analysis.….

Exactly!!

Amazing how the storyline goes when the “truth” in analysis is laid out. Good points of “observation”.…Sounds like the group wants to continue to support the “evil” ways of the M.I.C.

Good Afternoon Folks,

Is this our Monday morning sillies again. I did read the Jamestown article last week and noted its flaws in a review on another site.

Attacking US bases in Okinawa, Japan and South Korea. Mr Editor this is not an attack aircraft, but a fighter with 4 weapons bays, dedicated weapons yet to be invented. Also give some credit to the US air defense systems in and around these bases. The J-20 on it’s first flight was ID and tagged and I’m sure is in all the libraries of US air defense systems on shore and afloat.

Out class any thing in the neighborhood. Would think that US F-16’s which are rather common in Asia are more then a match for the J-20 which is nothing more the an Su-27 with a new skin. The SKoerans and Japanese also have F-15’s and the Vietnamese will have Mig 29’s. It would it is rather brash to say the least to say that a prototype aircraft that has flown what twice three times is a match for anything.

Oh yea the Russians are flying the Mig 31.

Just more winger Kool-Aid trying to pump up the just as useless F-22’s and F-35′. We need to cut government spending and these 20th. Century legacy manned aircraft are nothing more then flying future beer cans.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

This made me smile. Remember when they sank all our carrier groups with massive waves of bombers and submarines? That was a dark day.

Citation on J-20s being tracked by U.S. IADS?

Not to nit pick but the VA class subs are on time and under budget.

plenty of other navy acquisition examples to the contrary

Yeah, right. “Far superior”? lol

English please.

Do we really know the capabilities of this aircraft? I am seriously wondering on the quality of the J-20.

Lol

Only 200 for Russia? Isn’t that about what we have in F-22’s?

Its worrisome for sure, more so because Gates happened to dismiss Russian and Chinese aerospace capabilities not too long before both the PAK-FA and J-20 were rolled out. Yet we certainly have time to react in my opinion. Continuing F-22 production would be a good start.

And where has that got them in the past? Did we have problems in Iraq, Libya, etc?

“Can anything stop China’s super-fighter?”

Um…reality?

@TROJANII

According to Gates the J-20 is worthless but given how wrong he was about it existence I would suspect nobody in the the West has any real idea how capable the J-20 is. I wouldn’t underestimate the Chinese ability to produce a reasonably good stealth aircraft.

But the question is to what a distance the US Radar can detect an Enemy Stealth Fighter. It is true an LO airplane is not invisible but stealth technology reduce the detection range dramatic. For example a Su30 have a RCS of about 10-15m2 the conclusion is you can detected south an Aircraft by more them 400 Kilometers with an AWACS. But the J20 will have probably a RCS lower them 0,1m2 and this is optimistic for the US and there Ally’s why lower RCS are possible. You cannot detect south an lo aircraft by a long distance, the detection range can fall under 50 Kilometers and this is far enough to give the PLA a big advantage against a Carrier battle Group our an important target on the Land.

Stealth fighters are really hard to beat for example the Russians and the Chinese have spent a big part of his money in the last 20 Years to beat the US Stealth technology and to build more dangerous Air defense Systems them the US has ever build. But is still not clear that this anti stealth systems like S400,TOr M2, IRIST will work in a real war. And the US has not really invested in Anti Stealth technology why he was long time the only user of this technology so I do not think you can beat so simple stealth aircraft like the J20 with upgraded but old radar systems what the most US Air defense Systems like the PAC2, Aegis used. The U.S. simple has a large technology gap in the anti-stealth domain why they never invested in this technology. For example the most US Fighters including the F22 not even have an IRIST system but for the Russians and Chinese’s this technology is since the eighties standard for all is fighters like the Mig29,Su27,Su30,Su35,PAK FA, J10,J11.

hear hear

Yes, I remember when their undetectable diesel submarines fired all their supercavitating rocket-propelled torpedoes.

Would that be on par with all the other “Made in China” stuff? If so, we have nothing to worry about.

You are right the F22 is clear the best Air Superiority Fighter in the World and the US have unfortunately not enough off them.

F35 also is a good Aircraft but you have again right, the F35 is not an Air Superiority Fighter and in the moment I fear that the F35 will never enter the service why the F35 program will possible kill for Obamas 400 Billion Cut program. But those F35 will enter the service in big Numbers the F35 will be powerful enough to beat the J20 why the F35 is more sophisticated them the F22 and possible better in a battle against the J20 why the F35 have an IRIST System and she is designed for a Network-Centric Warfare battle.

As regards the J20, I don’t believe that this Fighter will be used as an Air Superiority fighter the J20 is more a Strike Fighter them an Air Superiority fighter . I think the main task of the J20 will be strike missions against important targets in Japan, Taiwan and South Korea and US Carrier Groups. The PLA not need really an Air Superiority Fighter like the F22 why they have one of the strongest and most developed Air defense networks of the World but the PLA need a Weapon for attack is potential enemies and the J20 is the perfect Weapon for this mission.

Exactly not, cruise missiles like the BGM-109 Tomahawk are not in able to penetrate the massive Chinese Air defense. Red China is not Libya our Iraq a war against red china will be totally different to all wars what they saw in the last 30 Years. And don’t forget many Chinese Air Felds are bunkered and hardened against cruise missiles attacks. And red china has also thousands of SRBMs and cruise missiles how can rich the most US and Ally’s Air fields in the pacific region. It is not as easy as you think.

But these UAVs not existing and the F35 will possible never entering the service. And what means the F22 the USAF simple have to less of them.

No madder what other countries put out. the USAF will still kick their asses

Whatever we’re hiding in Groom lake or in some computer at DARPA. That’s what.

There are ways to work around all of those issues. Runways have to be exposed by the nature of their function. They can be cratered. Radars are similarly exposed. They can be destroyed by a variety of weapons, like stand-off munitions or massed cruise missiles. Command centers can be similarly attacked.

Think you’re comparing apples and oranges. If the J-20 is an air defense interceptor, it will face
our B-2 or something like it. ‘Taint no such thing as completely stealthy. All you’re doing is reducing the range of detection and reducing the time available to detect, localize and intercept…hopefully before the intruder gets rid of his payload. After that, spotting it is irrelevant. We have the same problem if the J-20 is an attack aircraft.
I doubt there will be any head to head combat between the two aircraft. Also, all else being equal, the “target” aircraft will detect the other radar before the reflection is reflected back to the interceptor.

‘madder’?

Sorry but almost EVRY weapons system for EVERY nation for quite some time has been late & overbudget. It is the simple reality that is casued when politics become overly intrusive into weapons systems development.

Sorry but the F-22 was not killed in favor of the F-35. It was killed becaue John Young had a personal grudge against the program & Gates is/was a fool fo listening to Young instead of the USAF as to how many are/were needed.

It is not that radar can not detect stealth platforms, it is that they can only do so a MUCH reduced range…

381 at least (& with that we STILL need 186 F-15C Golden Eagles well into the 2020s.

Where does the figure 381 come from?

In simplest terms, the force-sizing exercise begins with the squadron, the basic unit of organization and building block of an AEF. The Air Force has determined that each AEF requires at least one F-22 squadron for air superiority, interdiction in high threat areas, and so forth.

The standard squadron contains 24 combat-coded fighters. The F-22’s Operational Requirements Document validated that metric. The ORD was signed by the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

10 squadrons times 24 aircraft equals 240 fighters.

Note that the requirement is for 240 combat-coded F-22s. In order to maintain that many fighters constantly in a combat-ready condition and able to deploy on a wartime mission, the Air Force needs more F-22s for other needs.

For training, 25 % of the combat-coded force = 60
For test purposes, 5% of the total of combat-coded and training aircraft = 32
For attrition reserve, 10% of everything above = 34
Taken together, generate an additional requirement for 141

240+141=381

Of course Gates wont let everyone know that there are already an armed stealth UAV production inside DARPA’s hangars…that’s why he cut the funding for the F22 since F35 is the last manned stealth fighter. Remember the Bin Laden raid? The nightstalkers left the tail of an unknown Infil chopper.

I was referring to other nations purchasing Chinese equipment in regards to cruise missiles being used against them. To speak more directly about China, the Chinese do not have the ability to repel 3000 cruise missiles, we have the ability to launch that many.

The problem with all this talk is no one ever bothers to lay out any specifics. What kind of conflict? What are the details? Timeline? What are the US goals in that conflict. It’s not possible to give an informed opinion on how to counter the Chinese without those details. I know one thing, I am not going to advocate making multi-billion dollar procurement decisions because they have flown a prototype around a little bit.

Wow it can fly all the way to Guam??

Wow. I’m really impressed. Wargames. How come I feel like some politician is walking around with all my defense money in his reelection vault.

So you make mistakes? Don’t worry, you are quite understandable most of the time. Just contribute useful ideas and don’t be bothered too much by English usage issues.

@TroJanII

People used to say the same thing about “Made in Japan”. Now we wish we could make things so well. Today Japan is looking at korea and china and wishing they could compete.

When is the last time you bought any piece of electronics? A lot, if not most, of the stuff from sony and other major Japanese manufacturers is made in china. Almost all computer parts are made in china. All of Apple’s products are assembled/manufactured by Foxcon (a chinese company). If you are happy with your iPod, HDTV, Stereo, computer, the T-shirt on your back ( and virtually everyone is) then it is hard to argue that china doesn’t produce a tons of quality electronics and other products.

Great analysis!

As the U.S. and its allies proved in WWII, quantity can outgun quality in a war of attrition. If China brings this technology in numbers that threaten to saturate a western defense capabilty, then where will Gates be to defend his lofty decision?

Late and Overbudget comes from the Government adding additional capabilities to a weapon system adn then thinking it will not cost more or add to a schedule. After all these years you think they would have figured that out.

We shall see if the old habits of adding capabilities to an aircraft will happen with the new Tanker

Retired on an Island safe from the J-20

Since when did the USAF build airplanes? Lockheed Martin was the prime contractor on that program. While I think it’s nice you include personal attacks in your “analysis” you’re factually incorrect on a few points.

You’ve identified one of the main drivers to the problem. Contractors have plenty of issues, too, including corrupting the political process with marketing (ie, lies). Ultimately, Government senior leadership is accountable.

@William C.

At least 100 more F-22 would be great and a fairly reasonable response to the J-20 and PAK-FA. It would be a hard sell right now though. If we exported the F-22 at least we maintain some balance of power without more deficit spending.

China can do to us, with military spending, what we did to the Russians.

USAF is the program manager. USAF made the decision to go with Lockheed. USAF wrote and managed the contracts Lockheed performed to. So yeah, it is USAF’s responsibility to ensure the aircraft is delivered IAW the APB. USAF made the decision to change name to “F/A-22″ to implement late requirement change for air to ground capability, leading to cost & schedule overruns. Changed it back to F-22 revealing their true intentions. While it’s nice for you to personally attack me, you’re clueless. I’m factually correct, you are wrong. eat it.

240 combat coded aircraft
+ 25% for training: 60 aircraft
_______________________
sub-total: 300
+ 5% for test purposes: 15 aircraft
___________________________
sub-total: 315
+ 10% for attrition reserve: 32 aircraft
____________________________
total: 347

I take that back. You’ve got 240 combat coded, 60 training, 32 test (this seems high), 34 attrition reserve. You’ve accounted for 240+60+32+34=366. So how do you get 15 more to 381 and how do you justify “atleast” 381??

Bywrong,
Your missive was based on background like: 3000hrs of fighter time, along with an indepth understanding of air combat, HMS systems, air-to-air missile operations/technology, LO tech, and expertise in electronic combat??? Oh, I thought not!
The J20 is not the end all, be all but the aircraft is a clear signal of tech and pol/mil intent…most of the comments on subject of air combat on this blog are at the comic book level of expertise.

Stealth UAV: http://​thefutureofthings​.com/​u​p​l​o​a​d​/​i​t​e​m​s​_​i​c​o​n​s/X…

Of course the F-35 A and C will enter service. The B is on probation but I think it will be produced too for the Marine Corps.

China is so rich these days it could build 20,000 J20s and pay cash up front. And it just gets better for every JSF we build on money loaned from China they will be able to build a J20 just with the interest.

The strategic difference is America has always been “Superior” in Air Warfare and it will continue to do so. My point is when other countries develope a Weapon of any kind the “Rhetoric begins i am suprised especially at former service members (MAN UP) fellows?????

Does anyone have a rough idea how much flight time Chinese pilots get in a month compared to U.S. pilots?

Does any notice that this “report” was written by Carlo Kopp??

I am sympathetic to all those cynical posters who think everything the Pentagon buys is either overpriced or does not work. This cynicism is often encouraged by media stories with deceptive facts meant to sway public opinion towards a political agenda. Don’t believe everything you read. Do your own due diligence while also recognizing your own biases. One of the deceptive statements that has found traction is this notion that F-22s are a rip off because they have not been used in battle yet. I observe that ballistic missile submarines have never been used in battle either. However, they were very successful in deterring nuclear combat. Arguments for the F-35 in lieu of the F-22 are one of these deceptions too. It will be ten years before the F-35 will be fully armed and ready to fight up to their capabilities. Those capabilities will be well below what media deceptors have promoted, while the cost per plane will be more than double. F-22s are superb air to air fighters and also have operational ground attack ability now…yes now. Do you read any stories about that?

The A-10 has been used by some as an example of successful design and procurement, but they conveniently do not remember how controversial it was to buy a low tech, slow, retro performance aircraft for the USAF. It was not until Gulf War One, after the A-10 was in service for 25 years, that it was first used in combat. Is it inconsistent the media did not complain that the A-10 was a useless cold war relic, too? I can tell you one thing. If they only made 187 A-10s instead of 713, all of them would have been scrapped before 1990. A quantity of 187 jets is too small a fleet to justify the expenditure on updates and rehab. We need the F-22. It works well. But, they will all be in the “bone yard” in 10 years because there are not enough of them to matter, and they are very expensive to own. Potential enemies will not be deterred by the F-35, because they have parity to it. I don’t know how to fix this situation, but media deception does not help.

you got some crystal ball or time machine that tells you F-22’s will be retired in 10 years? name your odds, i’ll take the bet we’ll still be using them.

it’s not cynicism, it’s reality. People who cannot face facts are not more logical and better than those you call “cynics”, they are delusional. Check out the DoD SAR: http://​www​.acq​.osd​.mil/​a​r​a​/​a​m​/​s​a​r​/​3​1​D​e​c​1​0​T​a​b​l​e​s.p…
When you can understand that the acquisition portfolio is underestimated by $380 Billion (25%) (reality will be even worse) let me know.

You confuse being used operationally with combat. The OHIO class SSBNs have conducted over 1000 real world missions, deployed with weapons to carry out order. Aside from some training missions, and goodwill tours the F22s have never been used operationally.

well if USAF had properly managed the program they could have gotten greater quantity within the program’s budget. F-22 should have been killed early in its development and we should have had a more sensible, affordable replacement for F-15. But I agree with you now that it is developed, and F-35 is an even worse disaster, it makes sense to keep the F-22 line open (and kill F-35) as a hedge to maintain American air supremacy. However, I am not even convinced about F-22’s superiority, given DoD’s pattern of lying, and the performance data on F-22 is all secret anyway, so a fair judgment is not even possible. I support Gates’ decisions to kill some of our worst offender programs, like FCS and EFV. I disagree with you that we “get nothing for our money”. We do have a lot of fielded, capable, dominant systems, in spite of all our waste.

@BradM, the problem is the next Administration will not have the option to maintain the production of the F22. The F22 will be close by 2012 and them the Line is close the cost to restart the Line will be extremely high, simple to high.

@FormerDirtDart, the Russians said many but they do less. The Russian will never build 1000 our 1400 PAK FA but they will build and export more PAK FA them the USAF will have F22. I believe the Russian will finale will buy about 100–200 PAK FA for their own Military and export about 200–300 PAK FA the most for Indian Air Force.

But the PAK FA is not really a treatment for the US Air dominance why he will never build and export in big Numbers but the J20 is different the J20 appear more sophisticated them the PAK FA and China have the money and the capabilities to build Hundreds of J20.

@BradM, the X47B is just a prototype and this aircraft will not go in this form in service it is just a demonstrator. Probably a bigger Version of the X47B will enter beyond 2020 the service but this UAV will not be a weapon for Air defense is will be a strike platform it will no carry Air to Air Weapons.

And the F35 will possible never entering the service why Obama plans to cut about 400 billion from the pentagon budget. Does not happen the F35A will enter the service not earlier them 2017 this are very late (about 5 Years later them estimate) and is not clear in what for number the F35 will finally entering the service. Over and above that the F35 is not really an Air Superiority Fighter, the F35A have good futures like the IRIST System and is Net centric Warfare Capability but the F35 have also many problems like the low speed, the small and not so powerful radar system and is small intern weapon space (the F35A can carry only 4 Air to Air Missiles).

There are ways around bunkered and hardened.

In the end, didn’t the US have quality AND quantity?

Lol.

The RFI the USN released for the UCLASS program pointed to a deployable operational date of Q1 2018. Since the X-47 and 45 and maybe the GA sea avenger, I would expect one of the first two, with the 47 having the edge since it is the one farthest along, it would be selected. It also has a payload similar to the F35 internal payload. I would think there might be some tweeking of dimensions to enable certain existing systems like the JASSM to be carried internally, but it is essentially the configuration you’ll see for the system.

you know, I’m kinda wondering.…If we accidentally on purpose, left behind a (supposedly) stealth helicopter with (supposedly) all destroyed but (supposedly) all those electronic gizmos,still in the wreck, would it just drive the other side insane trying to catch up? “What does this do?”. “Nothing, but it drove the other side nuts trying to copy it.”

To kill the FCS and the EFV was surely the right decision. The FCS was a program what doesn’t work and to kill this program long overdue the EFV was also a program with big problems and low importance in a modern war. But to kill the F22 was the biggest mistake what was possible to made, is right the F22 is not a perfect fighter he has for example no IRIST and is Air to Ground and SEAD possibilities are very low but on the other hand the F22 was designed to beat the most sophisticated enemy aircraft. And the Russians and the Chinese really fear the F22 and don’t forget the F22 is so sophisticated than he is under an export restriction. F22 has also super cruise, better stealth and one of the most sophisticated and powerfully radar systems of the world and the F22 have many place for upgrades but the decision to build only 187 of this fighters make it impossible to financed big upgrades.

The F35 on the other hand is similar expensive to the F22 a F35 will possible cost more than 135 Million dollar by a production Number of more them 2800 fighters for example a F22 cost by a production Number from 186 fighters about 180 millions. And the F35 has more performance deficits than the F22 she is the smaller aircraft with a bad Aerodynamic Performance for example he can no fly super cruise and he maximum speed is very slow (Mach 1, 6) is radar system is also small and she carry only the half of the weapons load of an F22 and the F35 has not a full aspect stealth. He F35 is not a bad fighter and certainly better them the most possible enemy’s but the F35 is not comparable with the F22 and his future is also not clear.

But to my assertion “get nothing for our money”. The most Weapons who are in use by the US military come from the early eighties. The US Military have upgraded is legacy systems and field many new weapons most of this new Ammunition like the JASSM. But since the late nineties the US Military was not enabling with the exception of the Virginia SSN to put a single big weapon project in to service.

The list is long the Crusader, the Comanche Helicopter, the ARH70 Helicopter, the JLTV, the DDG1000, the Bomber 2018, the entire FCS Program (who was one of the idiotic ideas was the US Military has ever had) and many other programs like the B2, F22 and the F35 came too late and In to small numbers. Hundreds of Billions Dollar was spending for nothing and now the most US weapons are older them the people how used them.

@STemplar the ability to lunch about 3000 cruise missiles is very hypothetical a Number off 600 to 800 useable cruise missiles are more realistic and the PLA have enough Air defense systems to shot many of them down.

No, it isn’t’. The SSGNs alone can carry 600 between the 4 of them. B1 bombers have just been certified to carry 24 JASSMs each. Burke class destroyers have 96 VLS cells each. Since we are talking about the big war with China we are already in the hypothetical realm sir, and 3000 missiles launched from various naval and air assets is easily within the ability of US forces.

yeah — to have an alarmist title to the story based on some biased opinion is pretty bad…

But I think a situation requiring us to expend 3000 missiles would be better resolved with tactical employment of a nuclear weapon. We should avoid getting bogged down in a risky, bloody attrition conflict that would consume all of our conventional forces. We should use overwhelming force as a means to end hostilities as quickly as possible, ie. the strategy that brought an end to WW2.

There is no need to use nukes to bring China to its knees. China is extremely vulnerable in war, all this back and forth over specific systems is silly. With our current systems and fire power we could turn China into the new Africa easily. People on these forums have such a linear perspective in regards to war, tactics and strategy.

China has one coastline. Their entire economic lifeblood moves through that one coastline. This little war we all envision takes place along that coastline. Everyone assumes when l say launching 3000 cruise missiles l would even bother targeting locations that have SAMs defending them. The Chinese do have an air defense network, but it doesn’t protect their whole nation, no one can do that or afford to, not even China.

In this little conflict there is no we are all friends afterwards. This would be a world order deciding affair, on par with the end of WW2 and the Cold War. So the obvious end game is to end China as it currently exists. Beyond the enormous economic consequences of that is the simple fact as l already said, there is no going back to how it was before.

So with the end of the China as it is how do we accomplish that without nukes? Simple, oil. We take those 3000 missiles l launched and we hit every crude oil terminal on the Chinese coast, we hit the refineries, we hit the critical transportation infrastructure, we hit the accessing hardware, roadways, rail lines and such to their strategic reserves. I use my vastly superior blue water navy to interdict tanker traffic headed for China in the Indian Ocean where the isn’t a blessed thing they can do about it.

China can’t afford to have the oil spigot shut off for one second. They would implode. You turn the oil off and you turn China off, period. I don’t care what their latest doo dad is allegedly capable of, no gas means no war.

.

Sorry but the ‘media deceptors’ are the ones UNDERESTIMATING/UNDERSTATING the capabilities of the F-35. And only people who have something against it say it is being developed (& procured — we are now at LRIP5) “in lieu of” the F-22. Stopping F-22 production had NOTHING to do with the F-35. It is also pathetic to lie about the per unit cost of the F-35 when that has been going down each & every year (not the BS ‘projections’ the ACTUAL cost) — short of a major reduction in procurement numbers, the F-35A the flyaway cost will be $60–70 million with the B & C being $70–80 million (FY2010 dollars) — anyone stating otherwise is ignoring reality (& most likely making up BS numbers).

Actually, they have been claiming the sky is falling LONG before anyone thought of the J-20. Before it was the infamous “Super Flanker”…

God I hate this BS charcter limit! The missing 15 must have gotten lost in editing the post down.

240 combat coded
+
060 training (25%)
015 testing (05%)
032 backup (10%)
034 attrition reserve (10%
=
381

And the numbers come from the USAF, I did not make them up/figure them out myself.

The “at least” meaning that is the minimum JUST to maintain ONE F-22 squardon for each AEF.

5. ‘kinematic advantage’ is in the MISSILE, not the aircraft. Not that ‘kinematic advantage’ is not useful OR advantageous BUT the days of having to point the nose of your aircraft at your target are gone.

Not in the movies

Right but the US forces must do the same. The J20 can be used to attack the Air crafts and tanker how came from Guam. But a attack against Guam will be not fly with J20 the range to Guam is to big but China has also Hundreds of missiles and cruise missiles how can rich and hit Guam hard.

the main problem is that the U.S. is way too focused on fighting the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as funding those two wars. This is causing a failure in assessing and preparing for future threats that are not related to enemies who utilize mainly on guerrilla tactics, like the mujihadeen and insurgents use in Afghanistan and Iraq. The U.S. needs to be preparing itself for future conflicts with rapidly developing/modernizing countries. ie.) China for example

Sorry pcfem, you are one of the deceivers. It is impossible to achieve a 60–70 million dollar unit cost no matter how you manipulate the numbers, even without engines, or even using “then year” dollars. I do not make up numbers, you do. Anyone can google what the government is paying for the jets (the Exhibit P-40 form). Just divide the amount allocated for procuring the jets (including the long lead funding, no cheating please) by the number of jets and you will see what is being paid. You can plot the yearly trends on a graph to see the “learning curve” flattening and make your own predictions. If you want to be more analytical, you can predict your own learning curve using historical data and manufacturing modeling. Any way you slice it, a number as low as 70 million for the F-35A s nonsense.

Stopping F-22 production had nothing to do with the F-35? Please, don’t play dumb with me. All pentagon procurement projects are in competition for resources. It was essential for the F-35 program success to eliminate alternatives in case the financial situation did not work out. The A-12 scenario was, and is, an open wound in Ft. Worth. Undermining of the F-22, as well as the F-18 and F-15, domestically was part of the strategy. It was a business decision inside LM to back the F-35 in lieu of the F-22 precisely because they know both projects will end up competing for the same resources. Why do you think it is commonly thought that the F-35 is almost as good at air to air combat as the F-22? LM manipulated the media so long without opposition; F-35 superiority is accepted worldwide by those who refuse to do their homework. However, it is still a deception.

I do not agree. The conspiricy is much bigger than that.

SHACK! Amen brother!!

Uh, sure they flight tagged the J-20 on its first flight. And I have some great “water front” property down on the gulf for sale cheap (pay no attention to the black stuff washing up on the beach).

Have a look at what the F-22 does to F-16’s in DACT. Even if the Chinese are only able to achieve an aircraft 50% as good as the Raptor, that will be enough to change the balance of power in the region.

The J-20 is NOT a Flanker, I’ve attached a nice comparison image and I’ll let everyone make up their own mind.…

http://​img444​.imageshack​.us/​i​m​g​4​4​4​/​9​7​1​/​s​2​7​j​2​0​t​50f…

Your basing your evaluation on what information?? Pray tell me, I’m listening.….

The same Carlo Kopp that’s be predicting for years the problems with the F-35. Guess what, he’s been right more then once guys.…

I read the Jamestown article and had to recheck the link… I thought I had got re-directed to the Onion’s website. The article overlooks the fact that China doesn’t have an engine to supercruise that monster, the shape is only as good as the material technology employed, something else they don’t have. There are no avionics or weapons details available and they claim that somehow an aircraft the size of an F-111 is going to be MORE agile than an F-22 or F-35… so apparently even though China can’t build a decent jet engine they can defy the laws of physics.

There is nothing about that aircraft that impresses or worries me. It’s an under-powered, over-sized attack aircraft with an exotic looking shape. There is NO data that it even is that stealthy.

I read this article by Dr. Kopp a few days ago and it’s very thought provoking.

Reading this makes me wonder about the recent USAF strategy of retrofitting F-15C’s with the latest AN/APG-63 AESA radar (V(2)&V(3)) and basing them in Kadena with the idea of using these aircraft to “spot” attacking J-20′s and directing our few Raptors to intercept them.

The aforementioned Raytheon AESA systems operate in the X-band above 1 Gigahertz L-band, meaning that they should be equally blind to the frontal stealth shaping of the J-20 even with their longer range and ability to track smaller targets.

Attached is one of the latest photos released showing a very stealth profile with design cues taken straight from the F-22/F-35. The development of the J-20 has continued with several test flights occurring recently and more detailed images coming out.

The decision to build only 187 Raptors is looking more questionable everyday.…

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pXk9kCo_QE8/TbxjOYy3wAI…

@Cocidius, possibly one Gates own words, Gates said when he kill the F22 that china will not fly a 5 Gen prototype before 2015 but the J20 fly first 2010 and he appears more sophisticated them the Russian PAK FA the conclusion is simple the PLA was 5 Years faster them Gates have predicted. I believe gates have simply lie as he make his Forecast with the intention to kill the F22.

You living in the past. The MiG 21’s are quickly being retired and replaced with J-10’s in most cases. Also some units are transitioning to the new build J-11B’s. The J-10 is now considered a legacy platform and is in full scale production with a division being added to the force every year. Added to the roster over the last two years is the J-10A/AH flying with an improved full glass cockpit and the sat-com/radio compass antenna in a spine mount. Also now in production is the J-10S with a two place cockpit for a WSO in the back.

http://​cnair​.top81​.cn/​f​i​g​h​t​e​r​/​J​-​1​0​S​_​7​6​.​jpg

Making global statements about what the J-20 can do by looking at the prototypes can be dangerous. I’d work on keeping an open mind until we know more about this fighter and how it will look when it goes into production.

Carlo Kopp is a big fan of the F22 and many things what he write are not to 100% right but one the over hand not all what he said are false for example he has predicted what the F35 will get many problems log before he has become this. He also predicted the early fly of the J20 and many other tings what he write are also not completely false. I’m not agree Carlo Kopp them he said the F35 are inferior in compare with the Su30 our Su30 but this not means what Carlo Kopp tell only bullshit. The Superiority of the US are not basing on magic the US can beat and outdated by an enemy them the US is not maintain is lead.

The USAF has for example with the F22 the best fighter of the World and the USAF Fleet is bigger and clear power fuller them the PLA Air force today but the us force is in a dramatic decline however, where Chinese Military takes a massive buildup.

Yes, I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore.

Maybe so, but detection does not necessarily mean destruction, and it may also lead to their own demise.

I don’t disagree with part of what you say. I’ve worked on three programs (V-22, VH-71, F-35) and know first hand what they are about. I knew how high profile they were, but I really didn’t read too much press about those programs and what people really thought about them. Most people here think that since you work for one of the companies your trying to screw over the taxpayer and laughing all the way to the bank when the reality is, most of us maintainers on those and other programs are prior service and just as pissed as you are when we couldn’t get test flights/data going and timetables started to slide. I know it may sound naive, or cheesy, but, believe it or not most of us took pride in our work and wanted to put out a great product to our guys in the field.

sure — there are many great “worker bees” in the defense industry that are just as much victims of corrupt leadership as military and government civilians. Everyone should ask themselves what they value and what kind of fruit do they want their labor to bear. There are plenty of opportunities with organizations that are reforming things for the better.

First, China’s foreign reserves are leveraged with US Treasuries.…to use them, they have to sell them or the US has to honor them…how likely is that if China were to become an agressive belligerent? Second, China can only maintain political stability if it meets the expectation of its’ 4 billion people. You can’t be an economic super power if you lose your trading partners… (note USA) Small stealth UAV will be the dominant threat..not manned fighters..and those China can produce far more cheaply and in greater quantity. Taiwan itself will become impregnable with Stealth UAV’s.…the Straits of Formosa would see the sinking of any Chinese task force, let alone an amphibious landing group. IF China starts to field the J-20 in any numbers, we will sell Stealth UAV’s and that will make them pucker up for sure.… the arms race with capital ships, expensive manned attack aircraft…is over…the age of unmanned stealth is upon us. Fighters are an obsolete concept against technology advanced adversaries.… still good for raghead adventurism, but not a strategic concept any longer.

Regardless of the facts about this aircraft (J-20, T-50) there is no doubt that the Chinese have been itching to slug it out again since MacArthur…too bad we fired him aint it (never mind the Russians…do ya think thed’d have risked one drop of Russian blood to save China?).

It all boils down to the aircrew. If the pilot can’t handle the opposition he and the airplane loses.

Hey VTGunner, take it from a B-29 Korean war gunner Mr. Araya knows at least one more language than you and far more technical ! Suck it up!!!

Does it matter? He makes perfect sense, I bet he can write Spanish perfectly !

Come on guys…Chinese hardware is still junk! Try to remember that their Ave. Individual Income is still under $1000 US and their ability to feed their people stinks.… The world is not going off the US $ any time soon.

So many tears .… if China starts fielding too many of those J20, the US with one simple gesture can outnumber that easilly .… just open the F22 shop (the tools are there) and sell 50 to Japan 20 to Israel 40 to Australia, 40 to GB and 40 to Canada. In no time China would be surrounded with F22.
Plus the US needs to keep Russia in its side .…..

.…but I think that China is only trying to catch up not to overthrow the US .… they never turned to the outise …they have many problems inside!!! .…when they were the biggest power of all world the Chinese navy never played a conqueror role as did the Europeans and the US.

F-22 raptorPAK-FA

manoeverability : 9 of 10 manoeverability : 10 of 10
speed : 8 of 10speed :8 of 10
radar : 10 of 10radar : 7 of 10
stealth: 10 of 10stealth: 6 of 10
defense : 6 of 10defense : 6 of 10
electronics : 10 of 10electronics : 8 of 10
range : 6 of 10range : 10 of 10
weapons : 9 of 10weapons : 10 of 10
supercruise : 10 of 10supercruise : 10 of 10
=78 of 90 stars= 75 of 90 stars

j-20

manoeverability : 8 of 10
speed : 8 of 10
radar : 7 of 10
stealth: 8 of 10
defense : 6 of 10
electronics : 8 of 10
range : 10 of 10
weapons : 10 of 10
supercruise : 8 of 10
= 73 of 90 stars

F-22 raptorPAK-FA

manoeverability : 9 of 10 manoeverability : 10 of 10
speed :10 of 10speed :10 of 10
radar : 10 of 10radar : 7 of 10
stealth: 10 of 10stealth: 6 of 10
defense : 6 of 10defense : 5 of 10
electronics : 10 of 10electronics : 8 of 10
range : 6 of 10range : 10 of 10
weapons : 9 of 10weapons : 10 of 10
supercruise : 10 of 10supercruise : 10 of 10
=80 of 90 stars= 76 of 90 stars

j-20

manoeverability : 8 of 10
speed :10 of 10
radar : 7 of 10
stealth: 8 of 10
defense : 6 of 10
electronics : 8 of 10
range : 10 of 10
weapons : 10 of 10
supercruise : 8 of 10
= 75 of 90 stars

´sorry for this i dont know how it happened ( the comparison with the points): I hope you can read it

If ill give stars on the different categories it would be like this :

F-22 raptor

manoeverability : 9 of 10
speed :8 of 10
radar : 10 of 10
stealth: 10 of 10
defense : 6 of 10
electronics : 10 of 10
range : 6 of 10
weapons : 9 of 10
supercruise : 10 of 10
=78 of 90 stars

PAK-FA

manoeverability : 10 of 10
speed :8 of 10
radar : 7 of 10
stealth: 6 of 10
defense : 6 of 10
electronics : 8 of 10
range : 10 of 10
weapons : 10 of 10
supercruise : 10 of 10
= 75 of 90 stars

j-20

manoeverability : 8 of 10
speed :8 of 10
radar : 7 of 10
stealth: 8 of 10
defense : 6 of 10
electronics : 8 of 10
range : 10 of 10
weapons : 10 of 10
supercruise : 8 of 10
= 73 of 90 stars

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement