HASC saves tanks, keeps F-35Bs

HASC saves tanks, keeps F-35Bs

The House Armed Services Committee voted on Wednesday to add $425 million to next year’s budget so the Army can keep open its production of M1 Abrams tanks and M2 Bradley fighting vehicles, on the theory that keeping the line going will ultimately be cheaper than idling for three years, as the Army now plans. “These production lines can’t be turned on and off like a light switch,” said Maryland Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, the Republican chairman of the HASC’s air and land forces subcommittee.

The proposed three-year shutdown would force contractor General Dynamics to lay off too many skilled workers, and could force its small suppliers out of business, opponents say, which would raise the price tag on everything when the Army wanted to resume production. The Army’s current plans call for idling its tank factory from 2013 to 2016, then beginning a major recapitalization program for the M1 fleet. Bartlett’s measure would provide funding to keep the line “warm.”

The full committee on Wednesday also rejected an amendment offered by Rep. Jim Cooper, a Tennessee Democrat, that would have cut next year’s planned buy of F-35B Lightning IIs from six to four, and used the savings of about $380 million to fund Navy operations and maintenance and equipment for the National Guard. Cooper presented his measure as a good compromise — the Marines would still get their jets, other worthy recipients would get a shot in the arm, and it “would send a message … that we need to get this program back on track.”


HASC chairman Rep. Buck McKeon, a California Republican, warned that cutting the two F-35Bs could raise the unit costs of the remaining four aircraft, and that deleting them could also worsen the Navy and Marines’ oft-projected, seldom understood “strike fighter gap,” a point in the future when service officials have said they won’t have enough aircraft. [More on this in a moment.] The Armed Service’s Committee’s top Democrat, Rep. Adam Smith of Washington, pointed out that the cost for the F-35 keeps going up no matter what, and that he got estimates “yesterday” that the costs per fighter were expected to go up again, although he said he couldn’t remember for which model. Smith compared the F-35 to the Army’s benighted Future Combat Systems: “A program that wasn’t ready,” and yet one that kept getting funded each year, only to end up canceled. Smith urged the committee to support Cooper’s measure axing two jets.

It didn’t. By a voice vote, the HASC lawmakers rejected Cooper’s bid to delete two F-35Bs, and the committee will refer the bill with six jets for the Marines to the full House.

Here’s something else that members added to the bill: A provision offered by Missouri Rep. Todd Akin, the Republican who chairs the HASC’s seapower subcommittee, that would restrict funding for the Navy’s service-life extension program for its F/A-18 Hornets until the Navy “provides a current report regarding the program and the current strike fighter shortfall.” As mentioned, the Navy’s “fighter gap” has been an issue on Capitol Hill for years — service officials have said their Super Hornets are wearing out too quickly, and the F-35C will arrive too late, creating a donut hole during which the Navy won’t have enough jets to fly off its carriers. How many does it need? When will it need them? Depends on who you ask, what day of the week it is, and what the person you’re asking had for breakfast.

Akin’s mandate for a Navy report on the fighter gap could at least provide a new set of numbers for this issue, and it wouldn’t be surprising if he and other Boeing advocates use the issue to argue on behalf of the Navy buying more new Super Hornets. Boeing has sold Congress and the Navy on new batches of jets for years, and Akin has said he’d like to see a new multi-year contract for more Super Hornets as a way to help address the “fighter gap.” So Wednesday’s House hearing may serve as a prelude for more discussions on that.

Join the Conversation

Buy more Hornets and less F35’s. The Hornet is a superior acft with plenty of years left in terms of advanced technology. Besides, can anyone remember the last time we lost several acft in any fight? Go back to 1991 during the first Iraq crisis. For 20yrs the acft we have on our flight lines and flight decks have performed exceptionally well. Yes, we have lost a few, that happens during battle. But, overall, we have owned the skies in the countries we entered. Hell, we flew choppers into Pakistan without them knowing it.

Yeah, ’cause the Hornet is powered exclusively by GE who is without doubt gouging DoD on price without competition, right?

You are so full of Crap Dave. The Engine on the F/A-18E/F & EA-18G was utilized on several other Platforms including the F-117 prior to its integration into the F/A-18. So Wake-up.

JSF is the biggest FW&B known to man. It should be STOPPED NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are you talking about? The entire Hornet family is powered exclusively by the GE F404/414 series of engines. What is wrong with the F-35 being powered exclusively by the P&W F135 when the Hornet is powered exclusively by GE engines?

Two problems immediately come to mind.

1. What about the USAF? I would say more F-22s are a must, but what about a replacement for the aging F-16 fleet?

2. No 5th generation stealth aircraft for the Navy? The Navy needs something better than the Super Hornet in the coming decades, and one could argue the F-35C doesn’t provide enough of an edge.

3. The Marines are going to fight for STOVL tooth-and-nail it seems.

You are clearly living in an alternate reality. The F-35 is WAY superior to the Hornet, it is even superior to the Super Hornet and no amount of future upgrading can change that.

I suppose you are one of those who thought we should have kept buying F-4s & A-7s instead of F-15s, F-16s & F/A-18s…

The Hornet WAS a great plane but now is nothing more than a brand new flying target for advanced SAMs and J-20/T-50. The ONLY answer for USAF/USMC/USN is 5th Generation fighters… The reason the F-35 program is getting more expensive is because DoD and the Congress keep listening to the civilian hand-wringers over at GAO, CAPE and CBO, delaying the build-up to full production of 200/year which BTW made the F-16 the most affordable 4th Generation fighter ever made…Congress needs to accelerate the factory line to full rate as quickly as possible. Quit dolting around and let American industry pump out the fighter at optimal rates–then we’ll save $10s of billions.

Something the author did not clearify (assuming the author even is aware…), we are not building new Abrams &/or Bradleys — the ‘production line’ is for RESET (which is tearing down existing Abrams &/or Bradleys and “rebuilding” them to ‘like new’ upgraded standard).

Hey Formula–We lost one Hornet in A/A during Desert Storm and BTW lost a crapload (40+) of A-10/ F-16/ F-15E/ Tornado/ F-111 etc to SAMs and AAA. We lost more over Serbia. 4th generation fighters are nothing more than very sexy missile magnets–because the physics of advanced SAMs that will see you, track you, shoot you and kill you at ranges you cannot turn and run from. The only answer is STEALTH–as in 5th generation fighters: American F-22 and American/NATO/Allied F-35… and the bad guys Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20.

Only 2 manned American aircraft were lost over Serbia. I don’t know about GW1 but I don’t think it was 40.

You realize of course we are going to buy it? 10 exclamation points won’t change that.

Reopen F22 production.

Without air superiority the thype of attack aircraft does not matter.

This however is barry obama’s plan: gut power projection. No air superiority no power projection. Relegate US military to be meals on wheels for UN. See hati see Libya.

They’re not going to stop it, so how about you stop now. Buy a deck of cards and deal with it…

The Super Hornet is a fine aircraft, no doubt about it… but the design is dated.

I don’t want to get into a F-35 vs whatever debate about it because the aircraft aren’t really comparable. All I’ll say is that while the F-35 should be a superior fighter, I’m still not too sure about a single engine aircraft during blue water ops.

would you care to be fair about analysis? only 4 A-10s were lost in Desert Storm, and you know what, NO MIX of F-22 and F-35 is going to do what the A-10 does. So much for your “answer is STEALTH” theory. another problem is the USAF’s curious strategy of using fighters as bombers. If we had many more B-52s and subs with many more cruise missiles we could have achieved the results of the Desert Storm air campaign without the loss of the fighter aircraft. Finally you should be aware of your unfair comparison of losses during an actual war, when there is no actual combat data for F-22 and F-35 for which a fair comparison is even possible. Of course, we do have 7 non-combat F-22 class A mishaps and a grounded fleet, more evidence that we should probably take a lot more into consideration than your myopic views.

sure — why let a little detail like “not even close to completing test & evaluation” get in the way of committment to spending hundreds of billions of dollars for DoD and contractor promises? and then when those promises aren’t kept, give the taxpayer more multi-billion dollar bills to pay for the cost overruns to clean up the mess? YEAH, i’m sure you are not willing to consider that there are multiple courses of action to achieve goals? There are much smarter ways of defending the country than your stubborn, ignorant suggestions.

Wow, all the standard, uninformed, mantras in a single post. Kudos.

Woah. You mean there are TWO aircraft powered by a single engine type? I guess the F-35 will be okay with only the F135 after all won’t it?

whoa there, tiger. we’re only $70B sunk into this fiasco but another $300B is at risk. and that is just supposedly to “acquire” the F-35. If you were building a mansion and the contractor screwed up the basement, I’m sure you wouldn’t rush to build on top of it, especially when you traced the flaws back to the blueprints. Trump has got the sense and the outside view to recognize a crappy investment when he sees it. If he, or another politician with some fiscal sense, gets elected President, and we get some more politicians with some brains, values, and cajones in Congress, it could be nighty night for JSFUBAR.

F18 E/F and G are god fighters but they are based on a more then 30 Years old design, they are not stealth and simple not an invest in the future. The F18 E/F is also inferior to many other 4,5 generation fighters like the EF2000, Dassault Rafale or the Su35 and possible also inferior to against the Su30 MKI and the Mig35.

The F18E/F is a god airplane to fly many Hours and to bomb weakly enemy’s like Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan our Iran but against modern SAMs like the S400, TOR M1 our modern fighters like the Su30,Su35 our EF2000 our Dassault Rafale the F18 E/F are bad choice.

Then you buy an Aircraft you do this for more than 25 Years in this time the Aircraft most remain competitive t potential adversary the F18 E/F can simply no longer do this. The Navy and the Air Force need an Aircraft how can secure his dominance against Adversary’s beyond 2030 and not to guaranteed Jobs and improved the reelection chances of lawmakers in District X. The F35C is an invest in the future, however the F18 E/F can be only be a filler up to start of the introduction of the F35C.

Araya, you need to take a remedial English class if you want to be taken seriously here. Grinding and sifting through your posts is real work, and we’re not your HS English teacher, so mostly we just read the first line, then skip to the next post. It’s great that you have opinions on these important subjects, but you have work to do here.

Puke Dog– Since you specifically mentioned the E/F/G model’s F414 engine, you should know that it is the only platform in active service using that engine. The F-117 used F404, not the F414. The Gripen NG will use the F414 when it makes it into service. The Boeing Phantom Ray uses the F404, but no telling if it will make it into service.

lovely attitude. judgment & justice will be done, one way or another. i sincerely hope F-35 proves to be valuable. however, whatever benefits it may deliver for its cost, we can claim that dollars were taken from any of the other promising defense technologies out there. Every dollar spent on its cost overruns and every day it is late is wasted time and money that is a negative to our overall defense force structure. So we can fairly claim that F-35 has damaged and will continue to endager and damage our national security. This is not whining. This is logic. The problem is your stupidity and thickheadedness, Mr. neener neener.

That was pretty obvious. But in any case, it is good to see common sense prevail for a change. Do the reset in Lima as well as Anniston and get ready for whatever the Army decides to do with its ground combat vehicle program. Even if you end up buying a foreign design, you will need a coproduction agreement to spare US jobs. It is just common sense.

Why all people saying f-35 was superior? because 5 was superior to 4 (generation)? because he was recent?
don’t forget one things: The f-35 was one plane based on the f-22 (30years ago), who will have the same price than the f-16.Before his “creation”, he was inferior to the f-22.Normally f-22 will neutralized the enemy sky, and the f-35 bomb the ground.
All high technology can be upgrade in all aircraft.Don’t imagine if we say 5th gen, others was inferior.
F-35 have only one advantage, he was stealth and have STOVL version​.No one time you have heard, capacity or technology was superior to others aircraft.You have only the same argument, 5 superior to 4 and stealth.
Now this aircraft cost 3X his origin price, USAF and USN lose years after years some capacity, lesser aircraft carrier, submarine…and in the same moment all programs have overcost and malfunction.Would you see one navy with 8 aircraft carrier equiped with the f-35 or 10 carrier with f-18?

many basic brain.__we say to them 5th gen, immediately they consider him to superior.__If tomorrow french or swedish, say rafale and gripen was 5th gen, where is the difference? Today high technology who can be installed in 4 or 5 gen fighters, was able to see the stealth aircraft (expression used with radars used in 1980, no one foreign modern radar was autorized against one stealth aircraft, what is the reason for you?).__This is just marketing today, USA will win all market with the f-35, and if the stealth argument was destroyed by the reality, what is others argument about the f-35? except STOVL capacity? nothing, one f-18, rafale, su-35 make better skills than the f-35.After that you understand why no f-22 in libya, why he was stopped, why he was unnecessary.__when first foreign country receive their first f-35, in this time you see the end of stealth ideology, because at this moment, all the world see it and train with it.

@momomimamo, The F18 simple has limitation for example no stealth you cannot make a non-Stealth like the F18 E/F Jet to a stealth Jet like the F35, F22, J20 you can reduce is RCS but a Legacy jet will never be a stealth Fighter Because the airframe was never projected for stealth, the form is false, they have no inter Weapon load, is was use not stealth material by is construction and the intern is Structure is also not stealth designed. You can give the F18E/F ASEA radar and an IRIST System, you also can reduce the RCS a less but you cannot make Legacy fighter to a 5 generation fighter.

It is simple you can upgrade for example with a 30 Year old BMV car with a new radio with MP3 player and new Seats and a couplet new Interior but this car will never be comparable with a BMV car build 2011.

And as evidence you can see what the Indian Air Force has rejected the upgraded US Aircrafts like the highly upgraded F18 and F16 and also the upgraded Russian jets like the Mig35 in favor of the EF2000 and the Dessault Rafale why this aircrafts are based on a newer design.

Now to the 5 generation fighter against 4 generations fighter, the most important different between a F18 E/F Block 2 and an F35C is the RCS. The F18E/F Block have a frontal clean RCS from about 0,8m2 with weapons more then 1,5m2 a F35 has frontal an RCS from possible about 0,01m2 and this with full intern loaded and also many stealth optimized radar and over systems. And the F35 also have comparable over flight parameter with weapons in compare with a F18 E/F with weapons for example a F18 E/F flay clean possible ore tam Mach 1,8 a F35 will fly Mach 1,6 with full intern load why the intern Weapons not interfere the Aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft.

I can give you more other examples why the F35C is superior to a 4 Generation fighter like the 18 E/F but it are really hard for me to find the right words in English. I hope you can understand me despite my poor English knowledge.

Yes you right and I really regret my bad English knowledge and I will get better this but in the moment I have simple not time for it.

“NO MIX of F-22 and F-35 is going to do what the A-10 does.”

Fly slow at low altitude and get its lunch eaten by any air-defense system that wasn’t designed in the 1960s?

I love how the J-20 has taken over from the PAK-FA as being the Commie Superfighter That Will Totally Kill All The Americans.

you imagine one f-22 or f-35 over china? over russia?
Remember before bombardment in libya, normally that’s one NFZ, but why in this moment the f-22 don’t go make his role? libyan army is obosolete no? why USA waiting the tomahawk launch when you can see the rafale in the sky in the same moment? US response of non employment of the f-22 was for “save it against one better enemy like iran or north korea”, have you see their army?
Chinese say we have 5th gen, and immediately you take it for the top of the top aircraft? what do you know about it? except the “chinese 5th gen fihghter”? nothing
you can speak in french if you will…

no. actually provide CAS. Loiter over the batttlefield. deliver 1174 rounds of 30mm depleted uranium compared to F-35 180 rds of 25mm. what are you, stupid??

Your humility humbles me. We all have our challenges — it’s obvious that you are working on yours. Good job! Please don’t let my impertinent comments deter you. If you keep improving, and I’m sure you will, you will be a force for rational thought and better decisions by us all. I shudder to think what my stuff might look like if I had to do this in Spanish.

Your thesis is nonsense. There is no evidence of any kind that Obama seeks to gut “power projection.” And your regurgitation of Limbaugh’s infantile and degrading use of the term “meals on wheels” is an insult to the good work of our military.

@momomimamo, false I’m not imagine the F22 and the F35 over China but i imagine a possible war with China in the pacific by them the fight will take place in the yellow See over Japan and South and Nord Korea and over Taiwan and in the SAM infested area of the Taiwan Street. I imagine also a World in them the Russians export high tech Weapons to minor enemy’s like Venezuela, Syria and Iran.

And the biggest treatment of the national Secure of the USA remain Red China and Russia why this Countries are the only how can beat and destroyed our Country completely don’t forget this. And these Countries are not friendly to the US and a War is realistic if the military balance decline in favor of the Russians and Chinese’s. Al Qaida or the Taliban can hurt the United States but the cannot beat our destroyed them and they cannot treatment the vital US Interests but the Russians and the Chinese do this every day.

And the World beyond 2020 will not be the same as today, modern SAM Systems like the S400 and S500 and the cheaper Chinese version of them like the HQ9, HQ12, HQ15 will be in the future present in many parts of the worlds and the same is true for the modern enemy Aircrafts like the Su35, the J11, and J20. In this coming future the legacy Fleet will be no longer able to survive in a modern War and also not in abele to deter the potential enemy’s.

I am originally from an Eastern European Country (Romania) and I live today in German. But i have gone to school in home country in time of the Communist dictatorship and I have so learn only Romanian, France and Russian why in the school and leather German them I came to German and got citizen. Now I try to learn English but it is not easy in my age and I have also over problems and liabilities and so simple not the time in the moment to go to a English course.

@21ravens and also thanks for the encouraging words, i hope really to get better in the near future .

Gotta love the logic here, only in Congress:
1. We have to buy more, to make the unit price seem less exhorbinate. I thought you bought aircraft to meet a mission need?
2. We have to buy them to them to lessen the fighter gap. Wrong again! You are buying untested LRIP mistake jets that will likely need millions of dollars or reapairs and retrofits to be usable in any role. The aircraft have NOT been through OPEVAL and have NOT been deemed operationally effective or operationally suitable. These are the F-35Bs that have been put on probation because they already have so many problems that thay finally had to admit that IOC wasn’t going to be in 2012. Now it is likely to be 2019 or even later. If you want aircraft that actually address the fighter gap then they have to actually be usable in combat. That leaves F-22, F-16, F-15, and F/A-18E/Fs of those that are still in production. The closest one to being usable by the USMC is the Super Hornet since they fly Hornet Classics.

To summarize we are buying them to keep the ponzi scheme going, that is it!

@momomimamo, what you say is partially right but on the other hand she could hardly draw conclusions from the war against Libya. By Military operations you get them is possible safe, why the loss of only one modern Fighter can be a big propaganda triumph for the Enemy. The European and US Forces had fly without the first Attack with Tomahawks but it was simple safer to attack first with Cruise Missiles.

In a War against a enemy with Modern Weapons short-range and cheap defense weapons like the Tor M2 and with Middle range mobile SAMs like SA17 and long rage SAMs like the S330 and S400 an attack strategy like the Libyan war will be impossible. You need for Wars like this necessarily stealth fighters how can reduced by his low RCS the effective range of this Defense Systems, fighters like the F18 are simple not enable to do this and not stealth Cruise Missiles like the Tomahawk are easily to shot down by systems like the TOR M2 1/M2 and a rocket from a TOR M1 cost less in compare of a 1 Million Dollar Tomahawk.

To question of the performance of the J20, it is right now one can say you how dangerous this aircraft is but the Images show a Plane who has the characteristic of an 5 Generation fighter like the F22. He appears more stealth them the PAK FA and I know the potential of the Chinese military industry how is more bigger and rich on money in compare to the European our the Russians Military industry. The J20 is probably a bad stealth plane why the Chinese simple not have the experience with this technology but the J20 will be definitely more sophisticated them a F18 E/F how is bases on a 30 Years old design. I can also writing in France our In German but I prefer to write in English why I will get so more experience, then you really not understand me I can reaped the text in one of this languages.

No they aren’t goign to stop it. The manufacturing base is spread out over a great deal of the US. The major parts of the aircraft are built in about 6 states, and that’s the major parts. That means at least 12 Senators with direct interest and with states like CA, TX, OH, and CN in the formula, that means probably in excess of 100 House members, all from both parties. The F35 is going to be built, period.

no, actually. and if everyone bought into that way of thinking we will end up having a fleet of 300$200M+@ F-35 jets with FOC in 2020, so complex that LM will have indefinite cash cow contracts to fix all the bugs. you quote 6 states, there’s 44 more. and there’s 38 more Senators and 330+ Reps who are losing out on the F-35 dog investment. If Trump gets elected, he would have the cajones to stop the madness. Even a second term Obama or Romney or Gingrich, etc might do it.

shove them up your six hole?

what is up with all this “5th gen” nonsense?? it’s marketing spin to cover up if these jets are actually operationally suitable. if “5th gen” is the Key Performance Parameter, F-22 is “5th gen” so we can just keep manufacturing that for less cost than the development plus production of F-35. Your submission is less valuable than toilet paper. You aren’t worthy of Professor Neener Neener as a title. Maybe Professor Jakazz.

These LRIP jets we are buying (in fact the first F-35A was recently delivered to the USAF) don’t seem like they will need any repairs or changes to the hardware of the aircraft. Just software upgrades.

It’s not important to buy more jets to keep the price low but it is necessary not to cut the numbers currently planned, which were based on operational requirements.

1. C-17 was cancelled. (Less strategic lift)
2. FCS was cancelled.(No improvement to the weight profile of what needs to get lifted)
3. US bases are being reduced overseas and troops levels are going down. (Not much talk about prepositioned stocks, but in any case, it just takes longer to get to the places we are most likely to have to go.)
4. We are once again talking about the role of the reserves. (Mobilization requires more political will than sending in Navy battle group, Marine task force or Regular Army units alone)
5. For the first time since NATO was formed, the United States is not fully participating in an out-of-area operation. (This manifests our new approach to burden sharing).
6. We back to supporting insurgencies rather than counterinsurgencies. (Shades of the Reagan Doctrine, which actually began in Afghanistan under Jimmy Carter)

Now much more evidence do you require ?

Without wishing to appear derogatory, from this side of the Pacific, your weapons procurement system appears to be a dogs breakfast.
And I’m not saying Australia is any better — in fact the debacle of our Steyr rifles, the Collins Class submarines, and the new tracked artillery, show that politics is driving this chaotic melange of acquisition.
Is this a Western thing? Do we need to tear down the entire Defence Hardware structure?

agreed the f22 is 150,000,000 less then the f35 and that number is rising so the 35 is nothing more then a bright shiny money pit were the us tax payers are the loser on it since were neither getting the product that we pay for but they keep footing us with the bill hikes for there delays

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement