Is stealth dead?

Is stealth dead?

A.J.P. Taylor observed that few of the commanders in World War I understood its real strategic dynamics as it was going on. Taught almost exclusively to understand attack — attack, attack, attack — the armies on both sides ground to a bloody deadlock when their rivals always proved stronger in defense. This mystified all sides, but the explanation was simple, Taylor wrote: The railroads meant defending armies could be reinforced and resupplied much faster than they were depleted by forces attacking on foot, through the mud — simply put, defense was mechanized, but attack was not.

Fast forward to the 21st century. According to one school of thought, as the U.S. has spent billions of dollars on a relative handful of stealth attack aircraft, potential adversaries can spend millions on sensors and other technology to defeat them by detecting them. Like Taylor’s defenders on the Western Front, the defenders have a theoretical advantage: With fixed ground stations, radar aerials can be as big as you want, consume as much energy as you need, and use as much computing power as required. An aircraft has to be able to fly, flight and maneuver, in addition to being stealthy.

Defense analyst Barry Watts takes up this debate in a new report published by his think tank, the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, and his thoughtful analysis provides an excellent, detailed primer for stealth skeptics:


In recent years there has been speculation that ongoing advances in radar detection and tracking will, in the near future, obviate the ability of all-aspect, low-observable (LO) aircraft such as the B-2, F-22, and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to survive inside denied airspace. Those taking this view emphasize at least two promising approaches to counter-LO, both of which are being pursued by the Russians, Czechs, and others.

One involves very high frequency (VHF) and ultra high frequency (UHF) radars, which use relatively long wavelengths of about 30 centimeters to six meters. The radar cross section (RCS) of an aircraft not only  varies with the wavelength of the radar trying to detect the plane, but the aircraft’s RCS is larger for long-wavelength search radars compared to its RCS as seen by the shorter, X-band radars typically used by SAMs for fire-control. Radar physics, therefore, argues that VHF and UHF search radars offer greater potential to detect and track stealthy aircraft.

He continues:

The other promising approach to counter LO has been passive systems such as the Czech VERA-E, which uses radar, television, cellular phone and other available signals of opportunity reflected off stealthy aircraft to find and track them. The main limitation of such systems has been the enormous signal-processing power and memory required to analyze all these emissions, differentiate real targets from ghost signals, noise and clutter, and keep the false alarm rate to manageable levels.

One potential outcome, however, is that as long-wave radars transition to AESAs (and assuming computational power continues to double every two years or so in accordance with Gordon Moore’s “law”), information acquisition will overwhelm the capacity of aerospace engineers to reduce platform signatures. The balance between information acquisition and information denial will swing dramatically in favor of the former. Or, to put the point more bluntly, there will come a time in the not-too-distant future when the SAMs will almost always win against air-breathing penetrating platforms, rendering operations inside denied airspace too costly to bear.

So does this mean game over for the stealth era? Actually, no, Watts argues. (“There are substantial reasons to doubt this conclusion,” he writes.) It’s worth reading his report to get his full explanation, but to sum it up, he says advanced new features on the F-35 will enable it to continue enjoying stealth advantages on tomorrow’s battlefields: New electronic capabilities, the ability to attack in networked multi-ship groups, and others. This, of course, assumes they all work as advertised.

Watts also assumes tomorrow’s defenders get full points for technological rigor, even though they have many technical hurdles to jump before they reach the point where they can see and kill every stealth aircraft.

What do you think?

Join the Conversation

Round one against stealth has already been won, but not round two.

Think of all the new, exotic, NON-REFLECTING construction matériels…

Part 1 of 2: Every good radar textbook, which are all 100 percent unclassified, contain major chapters on both estimating RCS as well as estimating radar detection and coverage. The many radar equations used often contain in their formula, the variable, small “f” which stands for frequency of the searching radar. Little “f” of course yield the lamda, or wavelength. ( skip ahead 1,000 pages in the text book) and you can see/conclude that the Radar Cross Section of any fighter or bomber varies, depending upon many factors, one of which is the RF frequency of the transmitting search radar.

Part 2 of 2: Thus, if your ship has a surveillance radar operating on relative lower freq’s like L-band or even S-band (AEGIS), then the apparent Radar Cross Section will be a larger number, than if your search radar is transmitting its waveforms up in the X-band or Ku-band. The aircraft, of course, has not changed one bit. But to a lower freq radar, the RCS is much larger and thus, detection ranges are greater, than if your search radar is operating on higher freq’s. There are a multitude of factors, but this post is a simplistic attempt to say that RCS of an aircraft is somewhat dependent upon which radar(s) you have installed onboard your naval vessel.

I actually agree with Watts to a point. One thing still in favor of stealth will be in air-to-air and non-fixed targets. It will be quite a long time before the Chinese or the Russians would be able to protect any of their assets that reach beyond their borders with the newer technologies.

Fixed installation air defense will catch up sooner rather than later but mobile next generation air defense will be much much harder to deliver to the field or oceans.

But we have counter measures and strike capabilities brewing that will be very effective against these fixed installation air defenses, so I’m not too worried on that front.

Many of the conflicts in which stealth would benefit us are in engagements with large professionalized militaries, the problem is with the exception of China all those militaries are our allies. (and China is our biggest supplier of rubber dog crap and cheap good, so they’re not likely to get froggy) Outside of that much of Europe is defunding their militaries, and Russia is replacing most of its force with inflatable versions.

The future will not be large mechanized square offs with Nations wealthy enough to support a modern military, they are likely to be more “small wars” in failed/failing states like Afghanistan, Libya, and in the not too distant future Yemen/Somalia/Syria. Nations where stealth isn’t likely to be “defeated” by sophisticated Air Defense countermeasures and radar.….…countries where it’s just not likely to be used.

To the poster “Pennst98”

You wrote: “The future will (…) be (…) more ‘small wars’ in failed/failing states like Afghanistan, Libya, and in the not too distant future Yemen/Somalia/Syria.”

Somalia defeated the richest country on Earth, Afghanistan defeated the richest country on Earth, and the richest country on Earth already vowed to pull out of Libya by September, too – whoever wins.

The richest soldiers on Earth have become too impotent to defeat the poorest of the poor, and now even their stealth and nuke arsenals are growing obsolete. It is a disaster…

To the poster “jrexilius”

——————————–

You wrote: “One thing still in favor of stealth will be in air-to-air and non-fixed targets”

That’s a two-bladed sword.

——————————–

You wrote: “It will be quite a long time before the Chinese or the Russians would be able to protect any of their assets that reach beyond their borders with the newer technologies.”

And then what? Will stealth be definitively dead then?

Any ideas about what comes after stealth, anyone?

Remember: If stealth dies because the Russians and Chinese acquired this technology before you could use it against them, then developing and buying it ( $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ) was completely pointless. Pearls to the pigs.
Now the playing field is level again, precisely what you tried to avoid in the first place.

Better start thinking about post-stealthy air wars already.

The biggest critic of “stealth” has been Russia. If Russia is so sure stealth can be defeated why are they developing PAK-FA? Why the Chinese J-20? Nueron? It seems something in the variables of RCS/LPI/EW/EA works well enough to continue with these stealth projects. I never understand all the critics of stealth yet every country is developing a manned or unmanned stealth aircraft.

Well, at least this is for sure. If F-35 and F-22 stand to be made less relevant by a combination of newer sensors, what does it say about our legacy aircraft, or Eurofighters, Rafales or Gripens? Do they become obsolete?

Lowering the RCS of an aircraft also makes active jamming at lower powers more effective. Low power jamming means air launchable jammers based on cruise missile platforms.

Round 1 went to Stealth. Round 2 may go to Detection. Round 3 will go to Stealth+Jamming.

There will come a time in the future where every nearly SAM launched against a combat aircraft is burned out of the sky by directed energy weapons, lasers or microwave. eh.

good point, some american ask the question?
Next step was the reality of that, when foreign country take f-35 and see stealth…
But at this moment, the big propaganda of the “next generation” was win, because foreign buyers sign the contract, today we close the mouth, we don’t launch the f-22 in the sky, we can’t lose the f-35.…(all day we see that)

Yeah, and with that absurd statement, I’m going outside to sit and wait for my flying car to be delivered.

Defenders typically have the advantage and yet all can be overcome with sound strategy, good tactics, creative employment of tech, and plain ol attrition. It won’t be any different with stealth/LO than any other facet of war. The example of WW1 shows this. Had the idea of the APC and the concept of mechanized infantry dawned on one side, the bloody meat grinder of WW1 might have been different. The tech was certainly there. If the enemy can ‘see’ me with their new systems instead of trying to not be seen maybe I come up with a creative way to throw up so much ‘junk’ to look at they can’t possibly differentiate targets from ghosts before my weapons are released. Is the concept of the UAV really dead if I can make cheap decoys that accompany strike groups and give off the same radar signature?

There’s some prime two-dimensional thinking.

I guess that I thought that a laser shot-line was bidirectional, and as the Navy demonstrated just a few weeks ago, the power supply for a really good laser capable of doing that “burning” works better on the surface! ROTGL!

Four attributes of the F-35 program;
1– The radar absorbent material and the nano-carbon fiber support panels are continuing to improve the no-reflection characteristic of this a/c program. No reflection is no detection, regardless of frequency or power.
2– The Electronic Warfare System can direct power from AESA to overload (burnout) radar receivers. Also it is a large bandwidth transmitter for imputing viral code into the radar computer to prevent signal processing.
3– If you transmit with the radar, the HARM will get you! In it’s SEAD role, it is hunting to destroy multiple radar systems!
4– The communications networking of the F-35 a/c can share targeting information from any F-35 a/c EWS to other F-35 a/c HARMs, that are in range of the surface radar.

No concept is dead so long as the tactics evolve to accomodate the environment. Horse mounted warriors, even if clad in the best of armour and white sashes, disappeared from the battlefield with the advent of Maxim’s little marvel, only to reappear as a very viable and useful tactic in the early days in Afghanistan. The phallanx came into being with the Macedonians, disappeared from the battlefield with the arrival of the Roman legions, and then reappeared 1000 years later with the Swiss pikemen!

What goes around comes around, again, and again, and again, reappearing as soon as the “bad guys” forget how to defeat it! LOL! The UAS has unfortunately become a solution in search of problems and has been inserted where it just does not belong, solely because it allows someone else to stand up a program office and chant the UAS mantra!

Where is the evidence –any evidence– that “stealth is dead”? And please, people don’t show your ignorance by dragging out the F-117 example. Stealth means “harder to detect” not “impossible to detect”. Would Russia be pursuing stealth technology if they thought stealth was dead? Would China? I can see why the Euros would want to push that agenda given than none of their current offerings are stealth aircraft but let’s be realistic already.

Just read this, then sit back and chill, ‘kay?
http://​www​.wired​.com/​d​a​n​g​e​r​r​o​o​m​/​2​0​1​1​/​0​6​/​d​e​c​o​y​-​swa…

As Dan’l Boone might have said, there are more ways of skinning an IADS than just using a HARM. There are innumerable “games” that can be played, and will always be played, on the battlefield. The problem is that we end up myopically focused on one aspect or another to make the “sales pitches” and forget the gods-eye-view and all that it entails. Every move short of “checkmate” has a countermove, but every concept has to be advertized as a total “checkmate” just to get through the POM cycle! Oh… the lies that we tell! :-)

interesting read, appreciate the link. While the value of an aircraft and her crew are priceless it would be interesting to know how much one of these decoy munitions costs and weighs. If Im taking a large portion of a sortie out of the fight to deliver decoys I would say my air defense system is working well… especially if I had passive RADAR capability.

Then there are those that chastize while saying nothing at all. Thanks for bringing something to the table and posting something like this before Oblat got here.

Exactly. “‘Stealth is dead!’ says manufacturer who can’t build stealth aircraft”.

I kind of wonder why DoDBuzz is turning into a rebroadcast service for every two-bit think-tank’s press releases. Must be a slow news day…

I could have some fun inventing a company–call it “International Advanced Research Defense Group Study Center System Network Group Advanced Study Research Global Tactics Study Research Center” or something like that–and just take random comments from defense/tech blogs, clean up the grammar, make up a fake name (Doctor Watalatodough, Brent Friebier) and issue it as a press release…

time for some kurt plummer imo.
you don’t need stealth when you come with the militarized HTV vehicle. ESSM boosters + ramjet + scramjet (i think) = 200kft and mach 10, if i’m not mistaken. you can hold the whole country a hostage then.
and you can generally replace the fighters with turbojet-powered, loitering MALI missiles, that can reengage (an aircraft) the target if they miss. IRST/ FLIR/ optical for terminal targeting along with an awacs (uav prefferably, high in the sky).

i doubt those guys even visit these mil forums en masse.

Personally, I find it difficult to take seriously anything else Mr. Watts said after reading this quote attributed to him in theis article above, “The other promising approach to counter LO has been passive systems such as the Czech VERA-E, which uses radar, television, cellular phone and other available signals of opportunity reflected off stealthy aircraft to find and track them.” Sorry, no, that’s not what the VERA-E does at all. There certainly are some Passive Coherent Location radar systems that use such techniques to varying degrees of success under certain conditions, but not VERA-E.

I agree, mobile targers can’t have “radar aerials as big as you want” or “consume as much energy as you need”

But dude they totally shot down a stealth fighter dude I mean dude come on now!!!!!

And so this might explain the overall attention to RCS shown on the FAK-FA involving planform aligned edges and planar surfaces, but simultaneously apparent contradictions to this in the smaller details, like canopy bows and inlet louvers. If you are really going after survivability based on electronic countermeasures, you do not need 30-40db reductions in target size. A 13 db reduction will reduce the jammer power required to protect it by 95%. They probably also have some plans to fix the dirty signature details in “silver bullet” versions of the jet that will sacrifice some flight envelope. It’s an alternate way to go.

The longer the wavelength of the radar, the less certain that radar is of the actual location of the aircraft. Our enemies may be able to tell that a stealth airplane is present using longer wavelength radar, but they cannot hit it with a weapon without going to either a shorter wavelength beam, or switching to infrared or visible spectrum seekers.

The one thing stealth did not do is make speed less valuable in air warfare. It is unfortunate that we’ve forgotten the lesson “speed is life” in the interest of making aircraft stealthy. The SR-71 combined a limited degree of signature reduction with high speed and would still be difficult if not impossible for most countries in the world — including the Russians and Chinese — to shoot down. Even missiles that fly faster than the SR-71 cannot sustain those speeds for a long enough time to hit that airplane regardless of whether they carry their oxidizer on board or get it from the air around them.

Electronic Warfare is going to become a bigger part of the battlefield, as will technologies derived from it, like attack radars (electronic attack capabilities in the F-22 / F-35), remote code insertion, and longer-ranged anti-radiation weapons. Also, cyberwar is going to be a huge part of the puzzle.

Also, inexpensive wild weasel drones.

The longer the wavelength the lower the resolution, range and angle accuracy, and the larger the antenna requirements. Pulse compression techniques, frequency agility in a radar and bi-static radars (transmitter and receiver separated by kilometers), polarization switching to name a few can offset, somewhat, the lack of resolution but there is a larger problem. Radar Absorbing Material (RAM) is optimized for specific frequencies and angles of incidence; no stealth material can be simultaneously optimum in the microwave, millimeter wave, laser/eo, near and far IR and of course visual. The physics in each region contradict each other. Shaping as in the F-117 recognizes this; it redirects incident radar energy to the sides and rear of the aircraft.

HARM? — Who is shooting those? F-22 and F-35 do not carry them.

If you really take a look at the defensive capabilities of most post Russian block nations, they are at least 20 years behind the stealth technology. The hardest part is, preventing techno spies within our own R&D labs from selling out to the Chinese or other foreign governments.

Hate these overdramatic headlines. Even the guy being quoted isn’t really arguing that stealth is dead. The idea that stealth aircraft are dead just because of some hypothetical future fixed radar stations might be able to detect them is really stupid. Radars have been detecting non-stealth aircraft for decades, are non-stealth aircraft dead? Whether or not stealth works is not a black and white question. As others have said, even in this scenario stealth would be an advantage in air-to-air combat, and stealth aircraft are easier to cover with jamming.

Also, big fixed radar stations are just begging to be blown away by swarms of low-flying, long range cruise missiles. The hypothetical F-22 stopping ground radar would be easy prey for an ancient B-52, or a Navy destroyer sitting pretty a thousand miles away.

some European countries are eager to get the F35 …others are participating in the Neuron …so …everybody wants stealh!

I guess most of the people don’t realize that stealth died in March 1999 when a Serbian SAM site shot down a F-117 with a P-18 Spoon Rest D radar system and a SA-3 Goa missile system.

Oh no, the loss of ONE aircraft being flown with lousy tactics and mission planning, after thousands of sorties against some of the densest air defenses in the world…

The stupidity of this idea was already addressed on the previous page. Try to keep up.

It’s OK, I;ve just sent emails to Russia, China annd USA and reminded them that stealth is dead, they must have forgotten

Hyper sonic stealth aircraft. Enough said.

Absolutely, while they may be able to see an incoming aircraft using and Early Warning system once these systems hand off to Target Acquisition, Target Tracking, Height Finder systems their returns will dissipate greatly if not all together. But then it becomes about heat signature as a lot of these countries don’t deal with the commercial traffic we in the western world do… they could just try to shoot and hope for the best. Much like the speculation regarding the F-117 shootdown. If you fire enough missiles I guess you are bound to hit something. I would like to know how many SA-2 missiles were fired that night to achieve this hit.

But this is also a hinderance to us as well. As with our leap to stealth we assumed RADAR technology would advance as well. And this has yet to come into being. So as a lot of our technology was geared toward deterring future abilities its the antiquated systems that seem to be our achilles heel.

the most important factor in every weapon system is strategy and the way you use it,remember vietnam thousends of figthers lost due to bad tactics, did this make the aircraft obsolete? ask the israelis, they learn there leason afther 1973 and so did we

the f-117 did what the f-105 and a-4 did in vietnam they keep flying the same route sortie afther sortie sooner or latter somebody is going to get you no matter what they shoot at you

Good Evening Folks,

Hi ffb. Good to see you around again. As always its hard to pin down a position with you, but you mentions some thing and out of context I agree with you.

It is the underdeveloped countries that currently and into the projected future that are going to be problems. Libya has been holding on with old Soviet WW II and Cold War equipment that the west discarded long ago. They really don’t do air and feel little need for it. Al Quaeda never got around to having an Air Force.

The role of manned air strike is on the way into the history books. Down and dirty ground action will determine who wins and who loses.

Regarding the technology, at this time it appears that other then the United States nobody else is going to invest in this costly technology. Like stealth if they can steal it fine, the J-20/F-117, but nobody else has invested in stealth R&D.

Currently it appear that other then very advanced systems like Patriot and Standard Block 3 the ground to air mission doesn’t exist. When was the last time US combat aircraft had to engage ground to air threats? The 1990 Gulf War?

Another factor that is now in play is non kinetic weapons that have already defeated ground to air systems. If you can get into the system that all she wrote.

The air war will be ruled by UAV’s that will direct loitering Cruise Missiles or bomb trucks aloft to the target. The era of carpet/strategic bombing is over. Bombers subs hanging around off the beach with over a hundred Cruise and Ballistic missiles will be the air strike of the future and I guess after the demonstration put on by the USS Florida off Libya the future is now.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Good Lord, Puckingdog01 hasn’t read this post, I hope. I will never hear the end of it :)

And, unless the aforementioned wasn’t clear enough, I completely disagree with this article, Stealth is definitely NOT dead, and rumors of it’s demise have been greatly exagerated. Stealth is a core technology that will continue to evolve into greater and greater planforms of ultra-low observability. The ONLY reason the F-117 was shot down over Bosnia was a fortitous convergence of environmental conditions. The low-level flight path allowed Water vapor to condense on the aircraft’s surface, which greatly increased it’s RCS. That was how it was tracked and engaged.
Lesson learned!

All-aspect, ultra low-observability will a 2nd revolution in Stealth technological advancement.

http://​cn1​.kaboodle​.com/​h​i​/​i​m​g​/​2​/​0​/​0​/​7​5​/​b​/​A​A​A​A​AkJ…

Don’t cut yourself.

True. It requires too much abstraction (on multiple levels) not to consider the present-day U.S. Armed Forces and their inefficiency as a trillion-dollar-blunder.

To the “RunningBear”

You wrote: “If you transmit with the radar, the HARM will get you”

Works against Third World countries without S-300 (+) missiles. Just compare a H.A.R.M.‘s range with a S-300’s range: It’s like a swordsman running up to a lancer, or to an archer.

To Mr. Byron Skinner

—————————–

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “When was the last time US combat aircraft had to engage ground to air threats? The 1990 Gulf War?”

And even in 1990, with the whole World pitted against (a long embargoed) Iraq:

1) Iraqi air losses: 36 airplanes to air-to-air, 105 airplanes to air-to-ground,
Coalition airlosses: 4 — 6 airplanes to air-to-air, 43 airplanes to ground-to-air (Iraqi S.A.M.s & Flak).

2) Impressive as Iraq’s air losses seem to be, the Coalition scarcely destroyed the Iraqi Airforce.

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

You wrote: “Bombers subs hanging around off the beach with over a hundred Cruise and Ballistic missiles will be the air strike of the future”

Now you’re veering off topic with your “U.A.V.s” and “cruise missiles”, etc. : Strikes aren’t warfare. Strikes would have existed even in World War Three, yet they wouldn’t have determined its course and outcome.
Basically the author of the article above interrogates himself if there is still some unique, technological superiority (like stealth) left in U.S. warplanes that may help them to achieve quick and easy victories against enemy warplanes, or at least survive over enemy territory. (Bi-static radars [ = the above mentioned solution against radar-deflecting geometries] don’t work over the ocean or outside enemy territory)

(Continued)

Part 3 / 2 (Some things just don’t change at “D.o.D. Buzz”…)

As long as this traditional stealth technique isn’t replaced by something better (by radar-permeable matériels or devices, etc.), it seems that “victory” in future air wars may still be possible against dirt-poor countries, but not against “rich” ( = SA-2-equipped) countries.

And since no U.S. Armed Forces branch can fight without many planes overhead…

To the poster “Dfens”

——————————

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “The longer the wavelength of the radar, the less certain that radar is of the actual location of the aircraft. Our enemies may be able to tell that a stealth airplane is present using longer wavelength radar, but they cannot hit it with a weapon without going to either a shorter wavelength beam”

“Dani detected F-117s by operating his radars on unusually long wavelengths, making the aircraft visible for brief periods. According to Dani in a 2007 interview, his troops spotted the aircraft on radar when its bomb-bay doors opened, raising its radar signature.“
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​L​o​c​k​h​e​e​d​_​F​-​1​1​7​_​N​i​ght…

You know who “Dani” is, right?

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

You wrote: “…they cannot hit it with a weapon without going to either a shorter wavelength beam, or switching to infrared or visible spectrum seekers.”

Maybe that’s how you U.S. Americans would solve the problem: With lots of decades-long, profitable, inintelligible R & D contracts for Lockheed Martin.
Unfortunately, most foreigners don’t have your kind of money, so they have to come up with somewhat cheaper technical solutions: “One of the missiles was detonated near the F-117A by its proximity fuze“
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​L​o​c​k​h​e​e​d​_​F​-​1​1​7​_​N​i​ght…

Are you quite sure that all the F-35’s avionics and jamming powers etc. together can protect it against a rusty, Russian 5,7 cm A-A shell’s sniffing nose?

If you are going to cite Wikipedia, you might want to actually read the article, and reference the citations. The Iraqi’s claimed 4–6 air-to-air victories. In reality they may have only shot down one F/A-18C. Three F-111s and a B-52 were damaged by air-to-air weapons. And a British Tornado GR-1A was claimed, however the Tornado in question crashed to the ground due to pilot error on a different date than the supposed air-to-air kill is claimed to have taken place.

The “43 airplanes to ground-to-air (Iraqi S.A.M.s & Flak)” you posted, actually include a number of helicopters.

Go look at the actual facts of how the F-117 was lost. Stealth or lack of it had little to do with it. There is no defense against stupidity.

Well, there are a couple of things even an amateur can see.

1. Future wars will involve penetration past the first couple of layers of air defense and then stealthy hypersonic missiles are released, so surprise is still a vital role of stealth.
2. special metamaterials will play new games with radar and even optical sensors and to count this out is rather foolish. I doubt the DOD is giving up their cloaking programs.
3. What good are enemy radar tricks if electronic warfare makes the battlefield full of discordant signals.
4. decoys can work against early warning stealth sensors and produce more confusion than the old paradigms of tracking.
5. the greatest danger to our stealth efforts is espionage and hacking whereby we give the enemy free information that cost us billions. Anyone doubt the Chinese had a look at our tail?
6. stealth on missiles (see Russia), air craft, drones will require defensive systems to deploy speed of light weapons as threats will pop up closer to home.

As speed of light systems and stealth materials advance, convergence into a single air craft/drone/missile skin will unfold producing systems that are beyond retrofitting on existing air craft. The future products both offensive and defensive will fall to those rich enough and deep enough into R & D to own. In this game, the US is positioned well provided we tighten our security and continue to spend the bucks.

ELP, though I’m a big Raptor fan, I rather doubt an F-22 can take a 100 kw laser hit or carry internally the future hypersonic missiles. And why build a Raptor B without first jumping far ahead in stealth technology first, trying it out on drones. Its all about the material used. Then a new bomber featuring the best we can build looks pretty smart.….

To the poster “DirtyDart”

———————————-

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “If you are going to cite Wikipedia, you might want to actually read the article, and reference the citations.”

WHO quotes “Wikipedia” and doesn’t reference his citations??
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​A​i​r​_​e​n​g​a​g​e​m​e​n​t​s​_​o​f_t…

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

Anyway, my main point (which you ignored, or can’t refute) was the Coalition’s MISERABLE job at destroying the Iraqi Airforce: 52.788 sorties (several official sources even claim “over 100.000 sorties” !) that resulted in 41.309 strikes with 88.500 tons of bombs dropped, only to destroy 141 of over 800 Iraqi warplanes, and hardly any Iraqi “Scud” launchers in the plain desert!

That’s 374,38 to 709,21 sorties, which resulted in 292,97 strikes, with 627,65 tons of bombs dropped,
TO DESTROY

EACH

INDIVIDUAL

IRAQI WARPLANE ,
AND YOU STILL GOT ONLY 17,6 % OF THEM !!! (And sometimes got shot down yourselves, in the air and from the ground)

Patriot: Now is the moment for you to feel proud about your airforce.

Perhaps that had something to do with over 130 aircraft fleeing to Iran, no?

Byron back with more ignorant posts. The last time I replied to you, you were spouting unsupported nonsense about the Air Force dropping dozens of JDAMs on empty desert.

“The role of manned air strike is on the way into the history books. Down and dirty ground action will determine who wins and who loses.”

Funny, because manned air strikes were used in Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and…Libya. Manned air strikes will only go away when there’s piloting AI advanced AND cheap enough to completely displace it.

“Regarding the technology, at this time it appears that other then the United States nobody else is going to invest in this costly technology. Like stealth if they can steal it fine, the J-20/F-117, but nobody else has invested in stealth R&D.”

LOL. They steal some tech to incorporate into the J-20…therefore they aren’t investing in it? What? China has the J-20, Russia and India have the PAK-FA, and NATO allies are all investing in the F-35. The US seeks a total stealth fighter fleet. What?

“Bombers subs hanging around off the beach with over a hundred Cruise and Ballistic missiles will be the air strike of the future and I guess after the demonstration put on by the USS Florida off Libya the future is now.”

Cruise missiles are not carried in the amounts needed to sustain an entire campaign, and they do not do missions like CAS. Love how you bring up one US sub shooting Tomahawks at Libya, and ignore all the manned aircraft used in the same campaign.

Kind of stupid to assume every sortie launched was for the purpose of destroying Iraqi aircraft.

Yeah, but also according to Dani, when it was >15km away!!! Gee, I guess even LO aircraft need to avoid flying into spitting distance if we don’t want to get shot down. No kidding. In other words, it goes right back to tactics, with a dose bif dose of good/bad luck (depending on your point-of-view) thrown in.

acchh, I hit the wrong key. Should be “less than 15km away.”

That’s putting it very mildly. I’d say it is extremely stupid.

Who needs stealth when after 25 kills you get a tactical nuke…DOH!

Stealth aircraft will never be in a combat zone alone, there is always gonna be something like an ea-6b or other type of EW aircraft to jame the systems that can detect them. Maybe not flying directly with the stealth A/C but somewhere not to far.

Stealth jets are outrageously expensive, we don’t know if they really work, and they are not really that stealthy, since they require non-stealthy logistics, air bases, and refueling aircraft. Nuclear weapons and America’ already-present conventional technology over match result in less need for a massive fleet of tactical stealth jets to be prepared to go “toe to toe” against China, North Korea, Iran, etc. We only have so many resources. REAL stealthy insurgents, guerrillas, cyber attackers etc. can embed in the US, or anywhere for that matter, and cause much more damage than we should fear from Chinese & Russian stealth jets still in development of unproven worth. I’m not saying that our investment in stealth technology is completely unnecessary, I’m saying it is rather foolish to sink that much money in failed (late, over budget, unreliable, non-operationally suitable) programs like F-22 and F-35 — to the detriment of properly investing in the wide range of technologies we will need for the future. Now that F-22 is built though, we should keep (now we’d have to restart) its production line open and produce at a minimum sustaining rate as a hedge against the “enemy stealth jet 5th gen threat” of the future. F-35 should be flushed down the toilet, there are wiser courses of action and many more worthy investments starving of resources being gobbled up by that pig of a program.

The major component of this argument that seems to be missing is that fixed ground radar installations are easy targets of HARM and cruise missiles. If you don’t have any “eyes” then you can’t see anything, let alone stealthy aircraft. (not to mention if all your power stations are hit early by cruise or other missile technology what is going to provide power to the ground radar stations, cell towers, and other RF generators that do survive?)

Prey tell, what Euro agenda are we talking about? You men selling fighters that WORK and are in production and battle ready?The F-35 on the other hand is still stumbling towards the same hypothetical IOC at some distant point in the future. And with its F-16 performance it will still be toast against those same European fighters even when it does become operational.

The sad truth of the matter is that if your fighters doesn’t have the balls to run with the best, that hyped stealth is not going to save your ass when the JSF’s limited number of missiles/cannon ammo is gone.

“New electronic capabilities, the ability to attack in networked multi-ship groups, and others. This, of course, assumes they all work as advertised.”

Welcome to Sweden since 30+ years for schooling.

Every 2–3 years we hear of the death of stealth. First it was bi-static radars, then the Czech VERA-E system. Bi-static systems need mucho processing power, unless you can two a Cray-sized system with you, you’re out of luck. Czech style systems are awesome until the USAF cuts your power with cruise missiles and JDAM’s. Or you’re defending something in the middle of DurkaDurkastan that has no RF background noise.

Ben Rich already thought of this argument Mr. Barry Watts. The Sea Shadow was designed to have a RCS that blended in with the ocean. Silence can be just as bad as noise.

As for low wave lengths, vulnerable due to jamming. Even with a bank of souped-up PC’s, you’re still looking through cheesecloth (VHF/UHF) as opposed X-Band. That’s why the THAAD radar is X-band. Decoys will only make this worse.

There will be some radar that does hit the low RCS detection and FC sweet spot. And it will be defeated by ECM, decoys and ARM’s.

Stealth is here to stay, any aircraft with a large RCS (except the A-10) needs to be retired.

STEALTH IS FUCKING DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake the Fuck UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No it’s not.

Great Article!!! Congratulations!!!! Yes, Steath is DEAD… Lockheed must now find another way latch onto the Government TIT

GOOGLE SA-21, S-400.… Stealth IS DEAD.…. The days of Manned Aircraft are coming to a quick Close. Technology and Super Computer e.g. . “Moore’s law”. These Crazy integrators continue to feed shit to the Pentagon that “No” one has anti-stealth capability.… WELL THINK AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! Stealth is DEAD… All these high cost platforms need to be taken out of service and the real need Connectivity and longer range A-A weapons need to be developed. Senior Leadership at the DOD need to be Fired for allowing this to “Stealth” crap feed by the integrators to continue at outrageous costs. At the lowest level, a Marine on a Highway or Parking Lot repairing a LO aircraft with a K-Bar with no Air-conditioning would be interesting to see. SEATH is DEAD and will remain DEAD. The Government unlimited Funding paths are OVER!!!

Right on target. LO currently is critical, and it will be important for the foreseeable future. Furthermore, *obviously* we fight as a system of systems, with everything we have working together, and it *never* has been nor ever will be solely a question of the value of LO without consideration of how it fits in the bigger picture–and anyone who does try to assess the value of LO without considering how it works with the rest of our force construct is clueless.

Stealth doesnt’ seem dead as the Russians, Indians and Chinese are developping large twin engine supercrusing long range air-to-air fighters. What only seems DOA against these new competitors is the slow F-35 which still has no funding or engineering for 6 internal air-to-air missiles and change in its air duct inlets to make it faster. 400 billion dollars which may not be well spent.

Good Evening Folks,

Hi ffb. The Americans be scared and needing defense against non existent Russian and Chinese ADM’s, how are they protecting the homeland. A question. We have all of this concern for stealth, radars, stealth interceptors, and missile batteries and the like, how many Air Defense Missile Batteries does the United States have operational, along the Atlantic and Pacific Coast, the Canadian and Mexican borders?

When I was a kid back in the bad old days of the Cold War in Southern California I can remember at least three USAF Radar sites, Mt. Laguna, Mt. San Jacinto and Mt. Baldy in Los Angeles County. All closed down for decades now. The number of Nike bases I don’t know how many. San Diego had at least two Ajax bases and one Nike Hercules instillation. I haven’t seen a Nike Base or some replacement for it since I was in college in the 1960’s.

With China moving in to advanced stealth aircraft, like the J-20 now and surely an intercontinental bomber, with a fleet in the hundreds if not thousands with long range strike capabilities, at least according to Heritage Foundation.

Smuggling by air from both Canada, goods, gold, documents, VIP’s etc, and Mexico Drugs, money, Illegals etc. is a growth industry and the though that somewhere overseas al Qaeda or want to be group is planning on getting their grubby paws on a legitimately marked Boeing 747 and packing it with explosives or a nuclear weapon and flying it across the Atlantic or Pacific into US airspace, it would seem that that we would have a robust Air Defense Missile System protection the US. Do we?

I fear that the CONUS has been left unprotected, in the scramble for trillions of defense dollars.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

the truth is the Al-Qaeda threat you describe is real and we have to find ways to protect the nation better against scenarios as outlined above But the other inconvenient truth is that China will be the dominating conventional and nuclear power in 10 plus years which is ok as long as we are strong enough to defend ourselves and that acutally may mean building new nuclear warheads and missiles. Sorry, there will not be a piece dividend. China will not go away.

RE: “speed is life“
No, Not anymore.
Now it is “Go Faster, Die Sooner.

Did you REALLY have to title this “Is stealth dead?” Now you got Pukingdog foaming at the mouth again.

Let me make one additional comment. Stealth is DEAD. Everyone knows this as factual. Yet we DOD and Integrators that hire Generals and Admirals continue to blow enough smoke and offer to hire after their retirement that they take the Wall Street Highway to Texas and St. Louis. Great news for our Democracy and Warfighting Capability. The integrators and Senior Leadership at the Pentagon has squandered our future, knowingly for Greed. “Tell Everyone Stealth is viable” the Pentagon will believe whatever we say the threat is at any given time. Integrators say to the DOD; “Let us work the Warfighting Analysis for you, and we will find the GAPS”…. Yes, they will find the “GAPS” with the answers that suit their Wall Street and High paying jobs based on DOD Contracts.

One Gentleman stated how the F-117 RAM articulates Radar Wave forms in flight. Here is some news for you… F-117 was Retired from USAF Active Duty and the entire fleet is decommissioned and sitting at Davis-Monthan AFB ; AKA “The Bone-Yard”. Way, because Stealth is DEAD. The F-117 was a truly “Stealth” aircraft. No Afterburner, Screened Inlets, all the right stuff. The F-22 ceased production because we recognized stealth is DEAD years ago. In fact after the Shoot Down of the F-117 in 1998–99, when the advisories sold pieces of the aircraft to other Nations. Well, 13 years later they have technology that will Find, Fix, Track, Target and Engage our noisy, afterburning, non-screed intake, IRST Seen “Stealth” platforms e.g. B-2, F-22 and of course out over priced waste of funding JSF.

Continued: What makes anyone think that our advisors after 12–13 years, have the capability to employ their Scientists and Engineers who graduated from MIT, California Polytechnic State University, Georgia Institute of Technology, University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, Purdue University-West Lafayette, California Institute of Technology, etc… These students actually Graduate with very high-ranking and most of them are honor graduates. We teach these countries students at all levels of academics in our Universities because they need our advanced and critical technology. These Students actually, show up for class, and LEARN without drinking all night and rising hell. After Graduation from these Highly technical Universities with a PHD, they head back to their Country and begin working for their particular Government. Now, if anyone had all “A” Students from these institutions by the thousands available with unlimited Government facilities, funding and technology at their National Laboratories, don’t you think with pieces of various platforms and other information they could build OFP for IADS and A-A Fighter Platforms that Could See Stealth and the inferred, develop and have this integrated on-board legacy and new platforms within 12 years??????

Continued: Come-On!!!! We put a “Man on the Moon” in less than 8 years, starting from Scratch without an Apple or Dell Computer. The same could be said in regards to the Atomic Bomb. What do you think those Scientists and Engineers could have done with the same technology we have today in 12 years since we lost the F-117 ???? We are fooling ourselves, the same way Lockheed continues to lead DOD Leadership along by the nose right to the land of US money after retirement.

“1– The radar absorbent material and the nano-carbon fiber support panels are continuing to improve the no-reflection characteristic of this a/c program. No reflection is no detection, regardless of frequency or power.”

There is no single stealth composite material that universally absorbs of reflects all radar frequencies. A combination of materials combined with the proper shaping is necessary to achieve a meaningful reduction of RCS. Something that’s unfortunately lacking with the lower fuselage of the F-35.

” 2– The Electronic Warfare System can direct power from AESA to overload (burnout) radar receivers. Also it is a large bandwidth transmitter for imputing viral code into the radar computer to prevent signal processing.”

All that sounds nice except the only place this has occurred in real life is in the CATBIRD test bed. We’re years away from ever seeing if the F-35 can actually back up the hype due to the glacial pace of development. This statement also ignores that continuing issues with high internal temps with the JSF which will limit the amount of time that AESA jamming can occur.

“3– If you transmit with the radar, the HARM will get you! In it’s SEAD role, it is hunting to destroy multiple radar systems!”

This statement ignores the continuing trend among modern SAM radar systems to employ frequency agile transmitters making it very difficult both to jam or locate them.

“4– The communications networking of the F-35 a/c can share targeting information from any F-35 a/c EWS to other F-35 a/c HARMs, that are in range of the surface radar.”

Literally every modern fighter on the market today can share encrypted targeting data with each other or other platforms over the battlefield (big deal).

As with all things F-35, 95% of the noise is smoke and mirrors…

I just hope the Stealth era to reach it’s end. I can’t bear to see all those new models. Look at the good old F-14 is there anything as sexy as that? I say NO. Well Su-47 Berkut was exotic, and most Russian planes are sexy. Jokes apart, I wish the very high manouverable nice looking planes era to become true and banish the stealth era. Back to the dogfights!

By the way cant we simply add a small turret to track and destroy incoming missiles? the JFS can even track Artillery on the ground, and that means we have alot of processing power.

As one British officer put it — the Cold war was an era where feeling good about oneself while under-performing was the American way of war.

And Stealth is very much a product of that era — the secret source, the 11 secret herbs and spices that was designed to make Americans feel that the USAF was special again as they fell behind Soviet aerodynamics and missile technology. The contractors knew through long experience that Americans would pay any price to recapture that feeling and so they charged through the nose accordingly. This is hardly new it’s been going on for 50 years.

From a technological perspective the manned stealth aircraft is a dead end. The future belongs to airborne platforms that are not afraid to die to achieve the mission. This has been an embarrassing reality on the ground for a long time — whether it is afghans and Iraqis defending their homes or men armed with box cutters demolishing the NY skyline at the end of the day or any one of the other insurgencies we have lost.
But when the pace of change in processing is several orders of magnitude faster then the rate of change in radar engineering betting on Stealth which is really just old fashioned applied radar engineering is a losing bet. And you can see it in the militaries optimised for performance not contractor profits.

To the poster “FormerDirtDart”

———————————————————–

Part 1 / 7

You wrote: “Kind of stupid to assume every sortie launched was for the purpose of destroying Iraqi aircraft.”

OK, OK, no need to shout, I’m not deaf…

Soo, let’s include your precious finding in my calculations. Maybe they will make Western war pilots look less strabic, less spaz, less epileptic at the controls, crosshairs and triggers.

You objected against my stats, saying that the Coalition made only a few (only a veeeeeeeery few) flights against the Iraqi Airforce. Let’s say – just for sport’s sake – that only… hmm… 1 (O-N-E) % of all Coalition flights were directed against the Iraqi Airforce.

Meaning also that the other 99 % of all Coalition missions were devoted to much more important targets.

(Continued)

Part 2 / 7

To begin with, a few official, absolute, unquestionable facts: The Coalition undertook 52.788 – 100.000 sorties, which resulted in 41.309 strikes, with 88.500 tons of ordnance dropped or fired, etc. .

So, if – according to you… – only 1 % of this whole war effort was directly aimed at the Iraqi Airforce, that STILL makes 527 – 1.000 sorties that resulted in 413 strikes with 885 tons of ordnance (“bombs”) dropped on or fired at the Iraqi Airforce. To destroy only 141 Iraqi planes.

That’s already a (much better looking) average of 3,7 – 7 Coalition sorties, 2,9 strikes and 6,2 tons of ordnance needed to destroy

E-A-C-H

S-I-N-G-L-E

Iraqi, Soviet-made warplane! According to your preferred line of thought. (But statistically this also means that the Iraqis shot down the same 44 Western aircraft during only 1 % of all encounters…)

(Continued)

Part 3 / 7

Alternative analysis: When you pit

1.800 Western, cutting-edge fixed-wing aircraft + 1.700 helicopters (= 2.500 aircraft)
against
500 Iraqi, Soviet-made aircraft + 300 helicopters (= 800 aircraft),

is 141 Iraqi kills + much fewer dead “Scuds” + absolutely NO destroyed command bunker ALL you get at the end of that war? Do you really need an average of 3,125 (you write 3.125) Western aircraft to destroy each single (= 1.0) Russian aircraft?? Didn’t our Propaganda always preach the opposite until only a few years earlier, during the whole Cold War?
By comparison: In 1967 the djoowsish airforce (which was / is vastly inferior to the Coalition airforces 1990 – 1991 !) still managed to destroy 70 % of all Arab aircraft on the Egyptian front… so KUDOS to Saddam!

Plus: A third of all Coalition Infantry losses to friendly fire from the Coalition Airforces, too? (And even Coalition planes lost to Coalition S.A.M.s ???)

(Continued)

Part 4 / 7

Wasn’t this supposed to be the war “that ushered in the Era of stealth planes & cruise missiles & other intelligent ammunitions”, bla bla bla (nickname: The “Video Game War”), and “one of the operationally most successful wars in history” ?

Let’s quickly sum up this “success” : It took the 540.000 Coalition troops exactly 100 hours to drive 120 miles (190 km) along the Iraqi-Kuwaiti border = slightly faster than 1 mile per hour. Meaning that even small, scared turtles crawling over land would have escaped the Great American Blitzkrieg. The fallen of Omaha Beach would spit in your face! On the whole, Gulf War I failed nearly every political and military goal, too – which inexorably led to Gulf War II. The whole Gulf War I was nothing but a pure media ploy, a replay of Grenada 1983 = more therapy for the U.S. Americans’ Vietnam trauma.

And an injustice for the Iraqis.

(Continued)

Part 5 / 7

That’s because my big friend Saddam Hussein was Goddamn right to invade Kuwait in 1990, after appealing for several years and in vain to all international, jurisdictional bodies! Just “Google” any combination of > 4 of these search words:

“Saddam” + “accused” + “Kuwait” + “slant-drill” + “across” + “border” + “Rumaila” + “oil field” + “invasion”

Saddam wasn’t defending any “national interests abroad” (wtf is that??!), as the U.S. Armed Forces always claim they do, but only at home. In his very pantry, so to say. Legitimately. And sensibly.

(Continued)

Part 6 / 7

But we could creatively increase the glory of Western pilots even further, by reducing the number of missions flown against the Iraqi Airforce from
1 % (one percent = a one-hundredth part, or 0,01)
to merely
1 ‰ (one permil = a ONE-THOUSANDTH PART , or 0,001 ),
if you prefer… wanna rematch?

(Continued)

Part 7 / 7

The anti-Serbian air war 1999 was at least such a monumental flop as Gulf War I , too (almost comical! I keep repeating, the Russians could have come…), and I still wonder who emerges victorious out of the present, life-or-death air campaign over the World’s flattest desert: The aeronaval fleets of three Western, nuclear powers, or Kadhafi’s fleet of… Toyotas. If your constant I.F.F. mistakes meanwhile don’t turn all the “oppressed, good people” against you, à la Afghanistan. And in relation to any commitment of ground forces in Libya: Experience advises not to throw your pilots and your infantrymen into the same arena.

Sorry to bust your bubble(s)… INEFFECTIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s what you are!

Our show will take a short break now for a few F-35 ads.

To Mr. Byron Skinner

—————————–

Part 1 / 2

You wrote: “With China moving in to advanced stealth aircraft, like the J-20 now and surely an intercontinental bomber, with a fleet in the hundreds if not thousands with long range strike capabilities (…)”

and

“(…) it would seem that that we would have a robust Air Defense Missile System protection the US. Do we?”

Then the best thing to do for the U.S. Defense Department is to start believing in

1) Defense (an entirely new line of activity for them)

and in

2) stealth-seeing radars. Even if it hurts their “stealth planes” sales (F-$$s). It’s the classical dilemma of survival versus greed.

(Continued)

Part 2 / 2

Step two: The U.S. West coast is 7.623 statute miles long = 12.268 kilometers.
A Russian S-400 missile’s range is 400 kilometers, its defended circle’s diameter ergo (2 x 400 km = ) 800 kilometers.
A S-400’s radius for stealth detection is less than 100 kilometers = it sees EVERY stealth plane in a diameter of less than 200 kilometers.

Step three: Buy or license-build 16 to 62 S-400 batteries.
Trust me: They will cost you only a few obsolete, unwanted F-$$s.

Step four: Turn round again and sleep sound, confident in Uncle Joe’s protection.

As you see: Defending the U.S. mainland from Oriental planes can’t be a money problem. It’s only a question of having the right priorities.

A little bit of knowledge goes a long way, a derth of knowledge goes forever! Mr. Watts does in fact need to work a bit on his proclamations! Good catch!

And in the Gallipoli operations of WWI, “unsinkable” battleships were sunk thanks to misguided tactical plans and sloppy operations. Your point is.…… …. ?

Er… have you by any chance been on the receiving end of a simulated F-111 low level attack? In just about any situation short of sitting in the middle of a 30 mile wide salt pan, an ingress route can be planned that has the ‘Vark just snapping into his popup as he unmasks. Unless you are cued up to that pop-up with your air defense at full alert and a round or two already “hot” on the rails, in the real world, the next thing you are going to see is a face full of CBUs, snakeeyes, or LGBs. Stealth is great in the right places, and M.99 at 200ft works in others. As Tim Taylor would have said, …“The right tool for the task…”.

But the if we didn’t develop it first for them to catch up to us… then once they obtained it, it would not be a level playing field because they would have it and we would not. I level playing field is better than us being the disadvantaged.

It is likely that advances in radar technology will make stealth alone less useful. Yet the combination of stealth, advanced ECM and EW capabilities, and advanced decoys like the ADM-160B MALD will be able to overcome new SAM systems. It is still possible to create stealthier aircraft too, both through newer materials and design. Compare the Boeing F/A-XX concept to the Lockheed F-22A. UCAVs like the X-47B will provide a very useful supplement to manned aircraft too.

A more powerful radar also becomes a bigger target for every SEAD aircraft carrying some HARMs or other anti-radiation missiles.

Stealth is an engineering idea that works in the current day. Whether it works 20 years from now remains to be seen. UAV’s are just now “getting off the ground”. They are limited by lack of sensor and processing power. Today they will not replace the manned jet. The US will not allow its military to waste the bodies of its youth in large numbers. People who rage against contractors and the military want to sleep well at night and don’t want anyone disturbing their sleep with bombs and missiles. So they want Defense to protect them but don’t cost so much! It’s a similar argument with the police and firefighters. Unless the crook is at their house or the house is on fire, then two guys, one with a Taser and the other with a bucket of water, is all that is needed. But when trouble comes to their family and their house, they want 40 people with the latest technology there in 2 seconds. To ranters like P..dog, your 15 seconds of my attention is up. The lack of a modicum of engineering sense along with logic in thought and courtesy in expounding your views makes me wonder where you stand in any discussion, let alone sit.

http://​www​.dailymotion​.com/​v​i​d​e​o​/​x​c​y​1​5​2​_​l​e​-​r​a​d​ar-…
If you speek French.
It can detect the B2, F22 and the futur F-35 by its principle.

If you know that a F-35 is coming, you will indicate to your aircraft the approximate location.
For the French, they will send a IR-mica without knowing the exact position of the F-35 (infra-red detection).

The French will not have the obligation to know the exact position of the F-35 (or F-22, …).

There is also a project to use the AESA radars (using GaN) to detect the drag of the aircraft without detecting the aircraft itself.

A type of stealth will always be “destroyed” by the progress in technology.
It’s suicidal to base an davantage on this.

Would be nice if we spent a fraction of what is spent on stealth developement, F-35 propoganda, or just hot air on these boards and bought 2–3 squardrons of old tech CAS birds(A-1 Spad SLEP type) to support my two sons on the ground in A-stan.
We need all this tech in case we need to perform a deep penetration mission against a non-third world country with modern air defense and air forces. When was the last time that happened? When will that happen in the foreseeable future?
The USAF and NAVAIR are oblivious to our current wars, and the actual needs of those wars. Preferring to fly around in shiny Hi-tech fast movers and lacking the organization Hevous Rancheros to prosecute a dirty, bloody war. All of you tech worshippers assist this mind set. This is a defense forum, but it is easy to tell that only a small number here ever rucked up, grabbed a weapon and actually went in harms way.

And we plan to attack the French… when (aside from the technical and operational problems with the rest of that intercept based off of possible tracking in two dimensions of the general location, +/- many kilometers, of a whole bunch of aircraft, some of which may be LO aircraft)?__

No lol

my idea is: if the French have systems to detect and destroy stealth aircrafts, why not the others?

China, India, … can also find and develop systems like the French (or copy).

A French company developped also a grid of passive sensors (not expensive) using the TV signal (or radio) for detecting changes in the signals. It’s now under “secret” and forbidden to sell to others countries.

What I want to say is that the technologie can be usefull but we have to have in mind that it’s not the “absolute” technologie.
In 5–10 years, the F-35 will not be so steath than expected. Like France, they will not “wait and see”. They invest in new detection technologies.

A long-range early warning radar that may have some capabilty to track the general location (+/- many kilometers) of many aircraft including some LO aircraft that may be among them, while they are hundreds of kilometers away from the radar, barely even starts to be a significant capability to actually engage LO aircraft while they are penetrating your airspace. If/when the Russians and Chinese establish significant early warning coverage using LVHF OTH-B skywave radars like Nostradamus and like the one the China does have built well inside China, then they can at least have some indication that within the next several hours they are going to be bombed. Good for them. Still not-so-good for all the other countries who still won’t have even that rudimentary beginning of an ability to at least know we’re coming to get them.

“Sure it will get any mileage you want” — just a used car salesman shilling for his employer

Is this dribble of yours supposed to counter what I said at all? People like you would leave us with no air force.

Except that the MADL used by the F-35 is highly directional, and the odds of being able to detect those transmissions and be able to use them to do something like triangulate the position of the F-35 is highly improbable. Detection and tracking based on the F-35’s AESA radar emissions are similarly improbable. I suggest it is extremely improbable that the F-35s will be emitting any other RF signal over China. Overall, Chinese passive detection systems like YLC-20 and DWL-002 will be of little to no use in detecting and tracking LO aircraft like the F-35.

And the Chinese don’t have anything like the IR/optical detection and tracking equipment and network you are inventing, so we can start worrying about that now and still come out ahead of them in the long run competition of measure/countermeasure/counter-countermeasure/.…

Unmanned is great until they enemy shows down the satellite controlling the remote controlled aircraft.

UAVs become useless when the other side uses anti-satellite missiles.

The mission against Osama Bin Laden was most certainly a deep-penetration mission against a non-third-world country with modern air defense and air forces.

lol

http://​www​.flightglobal​.com/​b​l​o​g​s​/​t​h​e​-​d​e​w​l​i​n​e​/​201…

Of, if you can’t speak French: http://​www​.youtube​.com/​w​a​t​c​h​?​v​=​U​D​n​P​S​6​U​5​J​X​4​&​a​m​p​;fe…
A type of OTH radar.
Evolutionary. Not revolutionary.
Since the world seems to still be pursuing Low Observables, we should suspect that the existence of such systems has been factored into current design’s signature management ‘techniques’.

Pay no attention to the troll. It’s not even coloring inside the lines yet, so logic is lost on it.

Sorry, been out of town a couple of days and am just catching up.
The key element in your scenario is altitude not velocity. Against a Turd World SEA jungle country with late 60s Soviet tech, such an attack can still be quite useful. With the proliferation of radar-guided AAA, larger launch and engagement windows for medium range systems, and MANPADS, it is not just the Golden BBs that need worrying over. In 1973, the Israelis found out the game had changed and the IADS could now be more mobile. The Russiona learned to fly higher in Afghanistan after that. The B-2, F-22, and F-35 can operate quite low (especially the B-2), but we choose not to do so for very good reasons. In Desert Storm the Tornado operators found out low and fast resulted in higher attrition and they changed their attack methods very quickly.
Agree that there are different tools and techniques for different situations, but I can think of no scenario where low and ‘fast’ is lower risk or higher payoff than higher and ‘just as fast’ if you are LO, and can think of plenty of reasons you don’t want to go high and faster than high subsonic cruise: http://​elementsofpower​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​0​6​/​s​p​eed…

What is the ‘one aspect’ you are thinking of? I ask because if it is ‘Stealth’ , then we are speaking at a high level of abstraction about something that is actually a combination of tactics and signature management, and even tactics and signature managment are high-level constructs of even more basic elements. If anything, ‘Stealth’ is the antithesis of ‘target fixation’.

RE: “A combination of materials combined with the proper shaping is necessary to achieve a meaningful reduction of RCS. Something that’s unfortunately lacking with the lower fuselage of the F-35.“
APA Alert! Assertion unsubstantiated by fact, and in fact counter factual vis a vis Program Office public statements concerning recent RCS testing.
RE: “This statement also ignores that continuing issues with high internal temps with the JSF which will limit the amount of time that AESA jamming can occur.“
Conclusion drawn from imagination fueled by factoids released to the public. No understanding of the ECS required! May our enemies have such faith!
RE: “Literally every modern fighter on the market today can share encrypted targeting data with each other or other platforms over the battlefield (big deal).“
Not seamlessly, real time, high-quality, and without aircrew mental processing and interpretation. So yes…it is a huge frickin’ deal.

When those radars go on, they are targets. SEAD may be the key. Did we spend ALL that $$ for nothing??

Even if radar statations no longer need to ping aircraft, they will likely be found by space assets or other methods and can still be defeated by cruise missiles or other standoff weapons.

Absolutely correct. Any fixed defensive installation in the history of mankind may have briefly deterred or delayed a maneuvarable opponent, but it eventually lost against a more maneuverable foe who could select where to mass his forces, go around the installation, and set his own “Schwerpunkt.”

“Is stealth dead?”

I would say no. We have not yet begone to understand this tech, so why kill it now? It wouldn’t make sense. We may somebody take this tecn to the point of invisibility…litarally. All we can do now is fool a radar, I wouldn’t exactly call that stealth.

I agree. With proper employment of standoff attack, suppresion of enemy air defenses, special operations, UAVs, and cyber attacks, we can accomplish the end results of what F-35 is supposed to do for us in a much more cost-effective and less risky manner. Anyone who refuses to consider alternatives to F-35, and insists we must blindly rush ahead on this “too big to fail” course of action deserves to be taken out back and have some sense kicked into them. If you are one of those narrow minded “must have F-35 at any costs” people please do me a favor and first, smack yourself in the head in hopes of possibly getting smarter, and, 2, take yourself out of the national security strategy discussion. We don’t need your sorry ideas muddying up the conversation — F-35 has been given way too many chances and we’ve seen too many promises and been let down too many times. F-35 is done.

Stealth is not just fooling radars. It’s an airframe series of measures to lessen the visibility of the jet in several spectra. There’s measures to fool radar, but that’s not all. For the visible spectra, there’s paint and more to reduce how a person or camera sees an airframe. There’s enhancements around the rear to lessen the heat signature of the exhaust of the egine and other things. Don’t forget the other end of the spectrums. There’s ultra violet light. Fifth gen jets have countermeasures for this.

Stealth is certainly not dead. It has been very effective with the proper use of the airframes.
But stealth isn’t the solution for the future, not on its own.
For this I have a question. How effective is the stealth when flying close air support (like the AV8B’s and the A10)?

I think stealth is still the way to go for dedicated fighters and strike aircraft. But I’m not so sure for the “in between aircraft” like the “must do it all” F35.
And with the F35 I mean its operational use, not the discussion whether it will be a good airplane or a waste of funds!!!

I don’t really think that a technical discussion is even necessary here. Defense has always been stronger than offense (hence the historical formula of 3 to one necessary odds to attack a fortified position) and always will be. The trick is to beat current defense strategies for as long as possible, figuring out new ways to beat new defenses, hopefully before getting beaten ourselves. Stealth will never be dead, just more difficult. Right now it is absolutely necessary. That won’t change.

The battleships sunk at Galopoli were pre-dreadnoughts. There was one brand new dreadnought there HMS Queen Elizabeth; but she was withdrawn to join the Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow. It’s just a small point I’m making, with no critisism intended. HMS Queen Elizabeth was withdrawn because of the perceived danger to a brand new “cutting edge” dreadnought (the first class of dreadnought to use 15″ guns). They also needed her to counter the German High Seas Fleet — though she was re-fitting when Jutland was fought.

Having worked in the Radar Cross Section measurement business for over a decade, stealth is far from dead, it just means more challenges for radar designers and aerospace engineers. “Necessity is the mother of invention.” ’nuff said.

Thats exactly what it is, fooling radars. Because it sure won’t fool anybody looking at it with the naked eye.

Yeah… This guy really needs to have a dose of reality. Only thing that is right is the prediction of tech growth by Barry Watts, who is an actual analyst. Gotta look at the source of the information when working on a piece, not coming up with your own conclusion Philip Ewing.

Bear in mind that denied airspace incursions will increasingly be performed by unmanned vehicles. These are not subject to the manuevering limitations that having a human aboard constrain manned vehicle to. So the ability to utilize stealth in conjunction with speed and high manuverability will require missles that can perform corresponding manuevers. This in conjunction with stealth will reamin the leading edge for some time and our systems remain in the forefront here.

Active jamming and active countermeasures, rapid and unorthodox manuevering in conjunction with passive stealth technology should allow our systems survivability for some time.

Looks like the Budget guys are trying to dictating our future Defense capabilities instead of the tech. guys.

THE QUESTION SHOULD BE IS OUR MILITARY GOING THE WAY OF THE “USSR”,YES THE STEALTH IS ON THE WAY OUT ‚THE REASON IS THE “COST” AND THIS COUNTRY HAS NO $$$$$$.….…THIS SHOULD NOT BE A SHOCK .…

Wow, so much discussion about stealth. I especially like Running Bears discussion about the F-35 and txkboy’s statement about Techno Spies selling technology to the Chinese. Maybe the Chinese ended up with the 1TB drive containing advanced technology to add a little boost to the big boy on the block’s bottom line. Kinda makes one think…a percieved threat needs a solution.

.…just sayin…

Look, this genie isn’t going back into the bottle. What do you think, all airplane designers are not going to line up their edges from now on? They’re going to purposely design corner reflectors into their airplanes as a way to drive down costs? You people amaze me. You try to find all these magical answers for why airplanes cost so much, because God knows the fact that you pay defense contractors more to drag out development and jack up costs could not possibly be why they do it. Friggen amazing…

I am certainly no radar expert, but I do know that early in WW2 long wave radar was phased out in favor of the much superior short wave radar. Now they are saying that long wave radar can defeat stealth? Obviously there are shortcomings to this strategy or short wave radar would not be the mainstay since the war.

Long wave radar has great difficulty in precise localization of a target, as well as tracking. It also can suffer from a lot of noise from external sources and reflections (clutter). It requires massive DSP (super-computer type processing) in order to accurately track a very low observable Stealth target, such as an F-22 or B-2…and then, it is still practically impossible for long wave radar to direct a surface to air missile engagment of the “painted” target. So, there has to be a synthesis of both long wave, medium and short wave radar systems, and the collation and integration of the data from multiple radar systems in order to track, target and engage a stealth aircraft. This is currently beyond the means for most countries except those with the most sophisticated (and expensive) air defense systems…such as USA, U.K and Europe / Nato, Russia and perhaps China. Even so, no USAF Stealth aircraft operates in a vaccuum. It is supported by the most sophisticated electronic counter-measures and jamming technology available, which may effectively nullify any advantage the defending adversary may temporarily have, in terms of radar detection of the Stealth aircraft.

Besides which, most of the Air Defense and Radar systems would be taken out in the first minutes of any conflict by air and sea-launched cruise missiles (e.g. Tomahawks) as well as, perhaps, stealth UAV attack drones (e.g. RQ-170, Boeing Phantom Ray-derived UAV, etc.)

Stealth is very much ALIVE and WELL, and will continue to dominate the planning, design, and strategic execution of campaigns designed to quickly secure complete air dominance and denial of air-space.

Well, once again the DOD has decided to CUT Veterans and Retirees Health Benefits. Let me also add the GI Bill and DoD Tuition Assistance Rates. Yet we continue to fund the JSF Platform that is worthless since Stealth is Dead. Yet we continue to Fund this worthless Platform while our Veterans, Widows, Children and Healthcare System “Guaranteed” to our troops are now going to be CUT along with Medicare. So now we fund an Un-Stealthy aircraft with Open Intakes and an Augmenter Section which is seen in the IR as well as Radar. Yet, Lockheed Martin Continues to lead the DOD on a Highway to Hell. We would rather keep Wall Street and Lockheed (I need more funding) Martin along with the steer riders in Texas fully funded do to George babies home state. At the same time we throw all our Patriotic Troops who fight and die for this country along with the widows and children under the bus along with Grandma. They would rather purchase a 16 year JSF development program that has tripled in cost. This will cost the US $160,000,000.00 each X 2600 Each Platforms at a total cost of over 3 Trillion over 20 years in total cost. WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then there will come a time when every enemy aircraft will be burned out of the sky with similar weapons. But that’s (as was said) a long time ahead.

Stealth works great with high-frequency radars — but low frequency radars will tell you if/when something is inbound — however, not accurately enough for targeting. But low frequency radar can easily alert the locals who will then have a good idea of where to look for whatever is coming.

Regardless, proper mission planning, avoidence of all kinds of radars and other signal-generating devices that could otherwise be used to detect an attack (directly or indirectly), etc., will ensure that stealth is useful for some period of time to come.

freefallingbomb, We are inefficient because our military is organized to fight an enemy that no longer exist the USSR. We aren’t even fighting well organized states. For instance who has the authority ot declare surender for the Taliban or Al Queda and make it stick? The problems that create these failed states are the same reasons that conflict with them is so difficutlt. Since they are so unorganized but contrarily so dedecated its like fighting water. You can contain water but you can’t defeat it. Flooding can be deadly by it is occassional event.

The ever ongoing “hide n’ seek” is just another step away from the next invention and they seem to get costlier with each step. The biggest factor in any air-defense scenario is the detection — response time gap and these days every milisecond counts. Modern day warfar tends to take place in countries with outdated techniques and low defense budgets. Stealth will always come out on top but in a modern warfare scenario with worthy advisaries “time” is gold. Gaining time between detection and response(DR-time). Old proven tactics such as Hem-Stitching, terrain following and Over the Horizon targetting will still work but perhaps it’s time we design aircraft propulsion that add time to the DR-gap by simply allowing to fly a lot faster than conventional jets. The current jet engines are limited by temperature and the use of moving parts, e.g turbines. The combination of current stealth technology, very powerfull on-board computing and a next-generation propulsion will provide that time. Current warning systems all look towards the horizon. Perhaps we should focus more on the forgotton zone “straight up” or “attack from above”

It was overhyped for the bang for the buck. And yeah, I had a clearance way back when. The F-117 NEVER was a fighter. Expensive 2 weapon platform. You could do the same thing with cruise missiles.

Radar technology, vs Stealth Technology:
The Development, deployment, testing, logisitics cycles of each are such that Radar wins.
The actual use of the various Radar systems seems to be the key. Defense of such is also key.
In a real scenario these sites will be gone. Lo tech, missles, UAV, standoff artillery, will eliminate the ANTI stealth capability.
Aircraft currently on the battlefield have stealth to varying degress, coupled with speed, agility, countermeasures and others, will gain and dominate the air space.
end
Semper FI

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement