Home » Air » Report: Investigation widens as F-22s stay grounded

Report: Investigation widens as F-22s stay grounded

By Philip Ewing Thursday, June 16th, 2011 2:00 pm
Posted in Air

More than six weeks later, the Air Force’s F-22 fleet is still grounded, as Flightglobal’s Steve Trimble pointed out in a story Thursday, and investigators say they’re beginning to look beyond the jets’ oxygen systems to try to get to the bottom of their problems. The Air Force knows its Raptor pilots were having breathing issues, but it just isn’t sure which exact components might have played a role — or whether the problems are limited to the F-22 fleet.

Wrote Trimble:

Although internally described as the “[onboard oxygen generating system] safety investigation”, the probe launched after the 3 May safety stand-down of the F-22A fleet is “not limited” to that particular system, Air Combat Command (ACC) said in emailed responses to questions. “We are still working to pinpoint the exact nature of the problem,” the ACC said. “It is premature to definitely link the current issues to the OBOGS system.”

The stand-down was originally linked to five reports by F-22 pilots of potential oxygen system malfunctions, including one reported instance when an F-22 scraped treetops on final approach. The pilot could not remember the incident after landing, exhibiting a classic symptom of hypoxia …
The USAF investigation is also comparing the F-22’s life support system with other strike aircraft in its fleet, including the Lockheed F-35A Lightning II, Fairchild Republic A-10, Boeing F-15, Lockheed F-16 and Hawker Beechcraft T-6A, the ACC said. The review is aimed at casting a “broad net for comparison”, the command added.

Air Force officials have not connected the Raptor’s oxygen system problems with the November crash of an F-22 up in Alaska, or with the Pentagon’s decision not to field F-22s in Libya. In retrospect, DoD’s choice to keep the Raptor at home may have been wise, given the potential for an accident if something went wrong on a mission.

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	VMF 143 Puckindog 01 June 16th, 2011 at 3:30 pm Well, well, well… imagine that.… LOL… Lockheed and their infinite wisdom and proprietary OFP strike again. Bring another Billion or Trillion to fix another screw up… Great Engineers at that company… Gee between JSF and F-22 the Funding just keeps growing. These Platforms are a nightmare. The CIA makes more kills with a few guys and a Propeller driven Predator than the entire F-22 Fleet and JSF combined. I would pronounce that as efficient.
	AFRet05 June 16th, 2011 at 3:36 pm Okay, I give up. Why is there a Commissary photo associated with an article about the F-22 oyygen system?
	freefallingbomb June 16th, 2011 at 3:55 pm To the poster “Matt” You wrote: “Why is a F-22 model on top of a fruit display?” Because food is always sold on the ground floor of malls. If somebody took the F-22 to the first shop floor, the pilot would run out of oxygen.
	philewing June 16th, 2011 at 4:15 pm The F-22s are on ice, get it? Maybe it doesn’t come through as clearly at this size.
	Forrest Cantrell June 16th, 2011 at 5:21 pm Any lemons in that display?
	Tenn Slim June 16th, 2011 at 6:27 pm hold on folks 1. OBOGS plus Software plus AVionics interface (Integrated Processors) an entirely new innovation in the F22 may well be the problem We DONT live in the 1970 vintage age of aircraft any longer. There is more to getting o2 to the pilot than a simple mask, hose and generation bottle. Give the Geeks a chance. This is a critical flight item. end Ex LM Engineer. Semper FI
	Oblat June 16th, 2011 at 6:42 pm Because Lockheed is the leading supplier of lemons.
	Bill June 16th, 2011 at 10:23 pm Do you think the Russians & Chinese are going to give up on their stealth projects because of a few bugs that poped up in their stealth jets. (no they would just steal an O2 system from US (LM). We will find the problem and fix it , meanwhile our simulators are probably running non-stop. The F-22 is a good jet and every fighter pilot in the world wold love to fly it even with the bugs, because they know we will sort it out and get them back in the air. When you take out the R&D moneys involved with the making of the F-22, at the end we were paying around $140 million for each F-22, that is what the Eurofighter costs . Which one would you rather be in , in a dogfight ? Me, I would be in a F-22 !! The F-22 is probably the worlds best precision strike platform, contrary to what many people would have you believe. If you think i am making this up , you better start doing your homework on the net.
	VMF 143 Puckindog 01 June 16th, 2011 at 10:47 pm Yep this sight is Full of Lockheed Bring another Trillion, we will fix the Problem fellow engineers… Just keep throughing money at JSF and F-22. One of these days they can fly over the equator without the platform going inverted.
	VMF 143 Puckindog 01 June 16th, 2011 at 10:56 pm STEALTH IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can SEE STEALTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our counterparts have Anti-Stealth Radar both A-A, A-G, G-A.… Lockheed is feeding everyone SHIT. I’ve been in meetings with these morons where people state, “What about this type of radar, or aircraft”… Oh, we are not going to use that in this scenario because we will lose. Cannot do that no one will get funded…. STOP the lies you Bastards!!!! F-22 as useless as JSF.… Just another way for LMCO to make money and keep all the bush babies in the great steer roping state of texas. All we need in the real world is a longer range A-A missile with a PK Rate higher than 10% in good weather. PS… Bill You need to do your homework at the LMCO “Lighhouse”
	Bill June 17th, 2011 at 3:05 am I know that certaintypes of RADAR can track stealth jets i am an A&P I know a little about airplanes. the types of RADARs that track stealth are very advanced and that means they are expensive and not many out there . Stealth does not mean invisible it means less visible and that means that the F-22 has to be fairly close to RADAR or aircraft to be engaged which gives the F-22 a big advantage in a “Dogfight” , but i am sure you know that. that is why the F-22 has vectored thrust and digital flight controlls, i am sure that you have seen footage of Raptors at airshows. I know the Russians have 3d thrust vectoring but the Raptor has digital controlls on the engines that are tied into all of the flight control surfaces. Which makes the F-22 far better in post stall maneuvering, along with AIM-9x & Aim-120ds makes it the best fighter in the world.
	freefallingbomb June 17th, 2011 at 3:53 am Don’t exaggerate. The F-22 is the first 5th-generation fighter in the World. It’s so tremendously sophisticated that it must never be sold around, not even to allies like the British, not even technologically watered-down, otherwise national security is endangered. And the trivial detail that the pilot asphyxiates in flight doesn’t mean it’s not a great plane.
	Io205 June 17th, 2011 at 4:16 am May I ad that the Russians have great airplanes with vectored thrust. Sure the F22 will be a good dogfighter, but it needs to be. It wil be up against other great dogfighters.
	freefallingbomb June 17th, 2011 at 5:55 am But for the moment – it seems – the F-22 is in danger of “not even being”… All a cruel Su-35 BM or J-20 pilot has to do is to let himself be chased for so long by a F-22 until the F-22 pilot dies suffocated in his cockpit (after ~ 45 seconds) – no guns and missiles used anymore!
	Josh June 17th, 2011 at 8:39 am Ah yes… because no other plane in the history of military aviation has ever been grounded for safety issues. The F-22A is the very first one. Well… instead of just fixing the problem we probably should just melt them all down for scrap and fire up production on the F-100 Super Saber line.… can’t take any chances on developing new technology.
	Josh June 17th, 2011 at 8:42 am I’m still laughing that you’re continuing to hump along this absurd story that you’re an “engineer” yet somehow can’t tell the difference between “site” and “sight”, can’t grasp the proper use of puncuation or capitalization, and can’t form a sentence in proper English like most of us could in 4th grade. I’m not even going to touch your ridiculous rants.
	leo June 17th, 2011 at 9:09 am those of us tha remember the 80s, they said the same about the F-15 and F-16 in fact I remember a lot of aviation specialist telling that they would never sustaing the conditions of war that there electronic would melt, that they where hangar queens etc. Lets hope we dnt have to test them in combat but if we do I have no doubt thwey will perform
	freefallingbomb June 17th, 2011 at 9:23 am Part 1 / 3 First the U.S.A. suffered two defeats in two LOW-level, LOW-intensity conflicts, and now they simultaneously look clueless at two spectacles of banana-republic-like, technical ineptitude (the F-$$ and the F-22), precisely in the realm of cutting-edge military Aerospace engineering which is traditionally held as America’s unconquerable bastion of technological excellence. And until the advent of an alternative for the Space Shuttles – half of which exploded in the gawking taxpayers’ faces – the mischievous, “technologically backwardish” Russians will have to taxi N.A.S.A. safely into Space, too. (Continued)
	freefallingbomb June 17th, 2011 at 9:24 am Part 2 / 3 What all that says about U.S. military “Science”, about the way U.S. generals waste the biggest Defense budget in History (yelling for more) and about the self-delusion of the U.S. public in general, blocks my mind. Now, as a direct result of that, BOTH the PAK-FA and the J-20 will be finished, tested and mass-produced BEFORE BOTH the F-$$ and even the F-22 are!!! (At very least they won’t be grounded for being death-traps for their crews, 40’s jargon: “Flying coffins”) The fable “The Hare and the Tortoise” inevitably comes to my mind. (Continued)
	freefallingbomb June 17th, 2011 at 9:24 am Part 3 / 3 To end, an ominous advice: I recommend the U.S.A. very much to scale their global ambition according to their true, unfaked, unglorified military-technological level…
	ExAF but thinking! June 17th, 2011 at 9:27 am Never worked for Lockheed, did work with a lot of Lockheed folk. By far, most of those Lockheed employees were top shelf, dedicated engineers, maintainers, and manufacturing folk absolutely focused on producing quality products. In any group of people there will be some who value career over professional integrity, some that put a whole new meaning to “not on my watch”, and some that just simply make a mistake. If and when the problem with the O2 system is sorted out, I hope that it turns out to be just a simple mistake, not a known design flaw, ignored because of the cost to fix, or undiscovered because of intentionally less than adequate testing, or purposefully obscured so that it would not be discovered “on my watch”. Professionals find the problems, even the ugly ones, and fix them. Dont beat on the professionals that are trying to fix this problem. Careerists maintain CPI and SPI and live in deathly fear that they will be caught. Do with them as you must! :-)
	Door Gunner June 17th, 2011 at 9:53 am Apparently you did not get a job on either program or were fired while working on one of the programs that you are so againist. As for the F35, it is still in the SDD with the first LRIP jets being delivered. The F35 would not have any kills yet like the CIA does because it is still in the SDD phase. Not in combat yet. These comments no doubt come from a Marine who only watched combat from behind a desk.
	freefallingbomb June 17th, 2011 at 10:06 am The F-$$‘s problem is a bit more dodgy than drilling a new hole into an oxygen bottle.
	@7thwave June 17th, 2011 at 10:38 am Uh,gee Josh, go re-read history.….the F-111 was grounded for safety issues at one time as was the F-16, and the F-104…oh and lets not forget the BONE.
	@7thwave June 17th, 2011 at 10:51 am This guy is a moron. Stealth maybe “dead”, but there are plenty of countries air defenses that can be penetrated by the B-2, F-117,F-22, and the F-18E/F to an extent. And, just because the F-22 is grounded for a problem does not mean that is will not be fixed. And I am pretty sure LM is getting the tab for the malfunctions of certain parts,although I doubt the oxygen system is a LM problem.. Every new system has teething problems. Complaining about how this is dead and this is not dead only makes the person posting such nonsense a total idiot. Stealth is not dead. The F-22 is not a“frozen turkey” or a lemon. It is just a new weapons platform that is going through what any other weapons platform has went through…teething problems. I am not a fan of recent defense procurement decisions…especially such high profile weapons systems as the F-35. I do know there are alternatives out there,and we make most of them that can provide a decent weapons platform with minimal cost. How ever,cutting the F-22 down to 187 aircraft was a grave mistake. Especially when the F-15C/D fleet is near 30 years old, and needing soon to be replaced. We should have continued with the F-22 in production, worked out the faults, and then went for the F-35 at a later time.
	AmicusCuriae June 17th, 2011 at 10:57 am Perhaps you should consider other implications of this press release beyond confirmation of your biases. All the other military systems mentioned have on board oxygen generating systems too. There is concern that it may be a common problem with other systems, and they are trying to learn things from the overlaps and unique design features of these systems. If you want to increase your anxiety, re-read media stories from 2008 regarding the grounding of F-16I’s for crew breathing issues.
	Tenn Slim June 17th, 2011 at 11:00 am Amen and HOO Rah. The USAF fighter jocks stand in line for flights with the F22. Best of the best, no doubt about it. Semper FI
	Tenn Slim June 17th, 2011 at 11:12 am Any pilot that wants to wait till a F22 gets sights on and delivers will find the wait to extremely finite. The F22 systems ##### dont wait. end Semper FI
	Thinking_ExUSAF June 17th, 2011 at 12:24 pm Wasnt there for the F-22 meetings but was there for a host of others. Dont doubt you in the least from a technical standpoint, Lockheed may not be what the old Skunkworks was under Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, but… still pretty much a “top shelf” group of people. As for the rest.…Accountants are paid to squeal like stuck pigs over every penny. Engineers are paid to make the system work. Program managers are paid to make sure that the working system is delivered on time and on budget. My only question is why, in the overall scheme of things, is there no management metric (i.e. one that the PM is held accountable to, as he is held accountable for CPI and SPI!) . Radical thought: What if the PMs within DoD (and within government in general) had to put their programs up for independently executed functional audits (user requirements vs current design vs verification reports) to go along with the monthly CPI/SPI accountability assessments? Would there be any of the notorious “surreptitious managerial shortcuts” taken to insure CPI/SPI then?
	Thinking_ExUSAF June 17th, 2011 at 12:39 pm It’s a lot more “dodgy” I’m sure. At best, they will have to deal with the politics and histrionics from the critics. For example, if there was a data interfacing problem between the electronics of the O2 generation system and the avionics system (for example, altitude being occasionally misread), that could turn into a very minor technical problem and a major political/media problem. Every plane since the Wright Flyer has had “in service” problems, which unfortunately the critics always latch on like anemic leaches. There certainly remains the very real issues of the F-22 program cost, but… perhaps if less of that costly staff time was spent on “political posturing” and more of the time and money spent designing, building, and testing airplanes we would not have these little humiliating screwups. Oh well… :-(
	DensityDuck June 17th, 2011 at 12:41 pm Why in God’s name are you replying to a troll?
	DensityDuck June 17th, 2011 at 12:42 pm Okay, I admit it–hee! (ffb made a useful post? The F-22 might not fly, but I think pigs do!)
	DensityDuck June 17th, 2011 at 12:43 pm What’s funny is watching his nickname change every couple of days because he keeps getting banned.
	DensityDuck June 17th, 2011 at 12:45 pm The F-14 had problems with its oxygen system, too; although in that case it was a question of getting oxygen to the engines…
	HasBeen June 17th, 2011 at 1:54 pm Made me laugh!! Thank you!
	DensityDuck June 17th, 2011 at 3:37 pm Congratulations, you’ve invented the Ramo-Wooldridge Corporation.
	qwerty June 17th, 2011 at 6:14 pm Re-read the article. It stated USAF is making the claim, not Lockheed.
	qwerty June 17th, 2011 at 7:02 pm “The Chinese are shaking in their sandals…” That seems a tad bigoted.
	qwerty June 17th, 2011 at 9:01 pm The F-22 has been flying since 1997, and this seems to be a relatively recent problem. We don’t know if this is a design issue or a maintenance issue.
	Tritium June 17th, 2011 at 11:38 pm Umm, 7thwave, you really need to replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector. Nice post, Josh.
	johnstamey June 17th, 2011 at 11:56 pm maybe that damn thing should ofnotbeen bought by theairforce
	muscimol June 18th, 2011 at 4:42 pm it’s an excuse to start 6th gen. fighter!
	Billmill June 19th, 2011 at 3:13 am F-15E has been flying with MSOGS made by Litton for years with no issues. I can only remember a very few write ups on the MSOGS during my six years priot to retirement spent with the Strike Eagle. IS the OBOGS a LM in house design?
	qwerty June 19th, 2011 at 7:27 am Honeywell supplies the OBOGS, and Boeing is responsible for integrating all F-22 life support systems.
	Thinking_ExUSAF June 20th, 2011 at 9:25 am Its very sad to think that I invented anything, and TRW would perhaps be amazed! Somehow I think that the simple expedient of accountability would go a long way in many different areas. Once people know that they WILL be held personally accountable for their requirement management decisions and performance management decisions (as well as their financial and scheduling decisions), who knows what might happen! :-) Somehow I suspect that the most significant and most rewarding result (to the aerospace business in general!) might be fewer unqualified aspirants for corporate and government program management positions! ROTFL!
	A. Nonymous June 20th, 2011 at 10:28 am Because, like blueberries, the F-22 is also apparently high in antioxidants.
	freefallingbomb June 20th, 2011 at 12:50 pm A 5th-generation fighter, hailed as the World’s deadliest (and in a certain sense it is…) and being grounded for over six weks because it still has the effects of chloroform on its pilots isn’t anyone’s “histrionics”, it’s a flash in the pan (Aussie speak) !
	Robert Little June 21st, 2011 at 2:31 pm As it happens, the F-22 is not designed to go looking for terrorists in mud-walled huts, so while you are correct, it’s not an opinion worth all that much. The one I do value came from the Chinese, who claimed it’s a terrible plane and the U.S. ought to immediately scrap it. Why are you so angry? The F117 couldn’t hit it’s target in Panama, but later it did a reasonable job; the F-22 oxygen issue will get sorted out, the F-35 will too. You seem to have but one emotion and see only two colors, black and white. I’lm thinkin’ you need a little R&R.
	Robert Little June 21st, 2011 at 2:37 pm One branch only, “Old Smokey”. Didn’t have a gun either, but Japan is still flying them today, close to 50 years later.
	Oblat June 21st, 2011 at 2:48 pm “Never, Not once, did I hear or even an intimation, that the current problem would be shelved, discarded or ignored.” Of course not why would Lockheed want to shelve or ignore a revenue generating problem ?
	CatManDoo June 22nd, 2011 at 8:10 pm Wonder if the PAO system has a play in this problem?
	Cindy June 23rd, 2011 at 12:12 pm I can not vouch for the “new blood” at Lockheed — however as a veteran of Senior Trend (and several others) — the skunk works guys were indeed “top shelf” some of (and probably) THE finest engineers in the business. Having seen the results of the degradation of today’s graduates moving into the engineering field, I can not vouch for that same level of expertise and commitment. As the F-22 was never more than “dirty gray” I don’t know if the engineering staff was on par with the skunk works guys. I’ll limit the scope of this comment to that, and not delve into the relative merits of the A/C, its flaws. mission, or its viability circa 2011.
	vicent June 23rd, 2011 at 1:46 pm Bill is still around and knows you cannot onlly have missiles in silos,To build planes has been his dream and he done very well with all the good planes+radar (go lower,higher,)that was the first on the 1011tristar object was to sell it onlly along with plane wich worked..We all love bill he backs his personel from small to high,we are proud of him running the plant in M.D.thanks..
	dave December 26th, 2011 at 9:42 pm F22’s won’t fly & F35s can’t.…..So it’s back to that great workhorse F16.…saving lots of money too!
	dave December 26th, 2011 at 9:47 pm Maybe it’s time to go back to basics.….great simple design & engine.…good pilots don’t need triple redundancies that don’t work.….let em fly !!
	Stuart Earl McClure May 15th, 2012 at 9:41 am Lockheed is spending to much time on different planes than actuly working on the F-22 problem. I know what the problem is, but no one wants to hear it.

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