AF: No word when F-22s could fly again

AF: No word when F-22s could fly again

The Air Force’s fleet of F-22 super-jets has been grounded for more than two months now, but service officials had no details Friday about when the F-22s may fly again or even when engineers could finish the investigation into the fighters’ onboard oxygen systems.

“The safety of our airmen is paramount and we will take the necessary time to ensure we perform a thorough investigation,” said Master Sgt. Pamela Anderson, a spokeswoman for Air Combat Command.

Anderson told Buzz that when the grounding is lifted, there may be a bow wave in optempo for F-22 units — Buzz’s phrase, not hers — as everyone involved gets re-qualified on their jobs under operational conditions, as opposed to working with simulators or static aircraft.


“Pilots and ground crew continue to train in simulators and perform ground tasks to stay as proficient as possible,” she said.  “Once the aircraft are cleared to fly again, there will be a period where the pilots will need in-flight training to become fully proficient on the aspects of flying that simulators cannot replicate.  Some live flight is required for high-G maneuvering flight, a true outside visual, and in-flight decision making in a dynamic environment where simulators are lacking.”

The F-22s could take off if they absolutely had to, the Air Force says — Anderson said the jet “remains available for national security-directed missions” — meaning that if the balloon went up on a World War III-type situation, the fighters and their crews might have to chance it in combat even if engineers didn’t have a permanent fix for their oxygen problems.

Meanwhile, as John wrote this weekend at Defense Tech, this grounding is not only affecting the Air Force’s stockpile of F-22s, it means Lockheed has had to stop delivering new aircraft, too.

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I wonder: Can’t the F-22 pilots keep their dog-fighting skills near peak levels by sharpening them SEVERAL HOURS PER DAY in … jet trainers? (While they’re not simulating, or watching “Aces of World War One”) It’s not exactly as if they’ve never flown these jet trainers before…

Pathetic. earth to USAF: fix the dang system. If there is an F-22 design problem, requiring a multi-billion dollar development & modification program to fix, be honest and put together a program and include it in the budget so Congress can do their posturing, and then stick us taxpayers with the bill, which we are just so fond of gladly paying. We just love “business as usual”, and we are looking forward to more F-35 problems & bills to pay in the years ahead as well. ps — Thank you so much for not considering more affordable alternatives.

Yet another WASTE OF FUNDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stealth is DEAD. The SA-21 and S-400 can track all Stealth Aircraft. We are wasting DOD Funding on this useless Platform. The JSF, F-22, B-2 and NGB Programs need to be halted and STOPPED ASAP. We currently have enough long-Range Stand off Strike Weapons to destroy any IADS or Air Defense System without endangering aircrews from hundreds of miles out. Why do we continue down this “Stealth Road”. One word… Lockheed Martin and the other Prime Integrators. They have lied to the Pentagon. All these efforts accomplish nothing more than to raise the Stocks for these Wall Street idiots. All the Senior Leaders at the Pentagon know these facts.

Yet they continue down this path due to their employment options after retirement and there lack of Leadership. They should all be fired. They are NON-American. At the same time we cannot fund healthcare for our Vets, locate our fallen hero’s at Arlington National Cemetery. However, we can continue to lie to Congress listen to LMCO and others that “We have to continue to build Stealth Aircraft”. Stealth has been DEAD since the shoot down of the F-117. The F-117 unlike the JSF was a truly Stealth Aircraft. The F-117 had no IR Image, low LO, no afterburner section. On the other hand JSF has open intakes, afterburner, no internal air-air gun for close fighting, cannot bomb or destroy a bridge unless pylons are attached to the wings that compromise stealth even more. FYI: The last true Stealth Aircraft, the F-117 was retired in November 2008 and is now at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona in the “Boneyard” never to be seen again. The Generals, Admirals and Senior Government Employees associated with this Program along with all the other liars at the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin need to be Fired ASAP. JSF Cost is $160,000,000.00 Dollars Each times 2600, sustainment cost in the future is over 2 Trillion.

This is obscured and unwarranted. One last note; did I mention JSF cannot communicate with F-22 other than 1930 radio’s and that neither platform can communicate with any of our current platforms that are in production such as F/A-18E/F, EA-18G, F-16, F-15, B-2, etc.….….…. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009–01.html

Obviously, no one knows what is wrong with the F-22 oxygen system…if anything.

Would you do us all a favor and get back on the meds?

Now the U.S. Armed Forces have already a F-$$ that doesn’t fly, an E.F.V. that can’t turn, a F-22 that doesn’t breathe, an observation blimp that can’t get wet, a M-4 that hits nothing, a useless L.C.S., no Space-lift system of their own and nukes that can’t hear fire commands.

Your enemies must be wondering if the bemedaled, pampered U.S. brass takes its job seriously.

–The Navy has a problem with they oxygen generating equipment on their submarines, so the entire fleet has been forced to the surface and sent to the mouthball fleet
–The Navy has a problem with the food storage freezers on the Arleigh Burke destroyers, so the entire fleet has been recalled to dry dock for overhauls
–The Army has a problem with the air conditioners on the A-1 Abrams tank so all 3,000 tanks are now non-operational and out of service
–The Army has a problem with the .223 ammo used in the M-16 rifle, apparently they can’t keep their powder dry. So every M-16 rifle in the Army has been gathered up and send in for refurbishment.
–The air farce has a irrigation system problem with all of their golf courses so the poor pilots have nothing do to while the air farce brass tries to find a new watering solution for the grass. In the meantime, in order to keep up moral, the air farce brass has issued every pilot a free pass to Chucky Cheese.
;-D

The problem is the brass commits the taxpayers to programs that are so high tech, cutting edge, and fancy, that they forget that the priority is that they work in the first place. The religious-like faith in contractor promises is naive at best and more likely based on corruption. This is the continuation of a long, long battle between “technologists” and “reformers”. The high point of the reform movement was in the 80’s centered on the strategic thinking of John Boyd. We’ve wasted countless billions of dollars and precious years and decades in the status quo ill-advised military technology development strategy, perhaps now the power pendulum will rightfully swing to Boydian thinking.

Yes, stealth is dead, but no one word plz, f-35 partner have not signed
Everybody have imagine the f-22 like one super power in the aire, 10 plane versus one f-22 and he win.Now we see the reality, that’s one plane who lose year after year his credibility, that’s one big joke, one big propaganda, like 80% of american stuff.

I think there may be more to this grounding than they are telling us. If it was simply an issue of not having oxygen, just restrict the jets to 12,500 ft during the day. Look at all of the general aviation planes flying around that high without oxygen. I know it would be a limitation, but at least they could keep current on some things.

Just like with any crash investigation, the #1 priority is to find out what REALLY happened. In this case, Im thinking that they need to be very sure what is going on before they start fixing irrelevant things and causing more problems without addressing the root cause. Patience is a good concept, so long as it is used to insure that they get it right the first time. (Never time to do it right, .… always time to do it over!)

Rushed into service? Could be.

Lockheed Martin and the other Prime Integrators is more than one word. Your math and rhetoric is as bad as your supposed logic. You sound like a Russian SAM salesman. I bet you could make us one heck of a deal on some SA-21s as well. I wish your useless rants would go the way you think stealth technology has.

Many, many moons ago, as a 2lt, I flew the centrifuge at WPAFB where they were investigating the new color HUD and displays for the next generation advanced tactical fighter (which eventually turned into the F-22). If technology development and integration plows along at such a glacial pace (that was in 1977!), “rushed into service” feels like a real oxymoron, even if perhaps true. As a stray thought, we went from a Redstone launching the first Mercury into the Atlantic to the Saturn V throwing Apollo to the moon in less than 10 years. Why would you call a “next generation, evolutionary fighter” deployed in something like 35 years after technology development “rushed into service”? Perhaps its time we reconsidered Mr. Von Braun’s undergrad and graduate transcript in program management. The “Eastern Front” was a heck of a motivational incentive and sieve for failed program management concepts! LOL!

The F-35 can fly, the EFV could turn before the canned it, the M4 was always an accurate weapon, This F-22 problem will get fixed eventually and would have been fixed sooner if we were continuing production and development of the aircraft.

Looks like there is are about 20 f-22’s that flew into Hawaii this weekend. So maybe they are close to going into training. I’m guessing they came here from Alaska. But who knows. They are flying overhead today though for sure. So maybe they are doing some tests.

Grounding for O2 sounds like a bad cover story. Re-deploy towards Taiwan? S. China Sea is getting hotter. But, WORD, saw a hot-shot into Ellington the other night — not a meteor — went from MACH++ to landing speed in seconds. If it was manned, the pilot has bruises from the belts. The nav lights were peach and green.

I’ll diverge yet again to remind all that a program is usually operational when “they” say it will be off-the-drawing board/fully functional in 10 years — for us GDP (generally dumb public (sic)).

Earth to EngineerEconomist …

Did you even bother to read the article? Appearantly not as it states that the investigation into the cause of the problem as yet to be concluded. You can count on one hand the number of incidents which lead to this investigation, no indication of a major design problem for an aircraft which has been flying since Sep 1997.

Alternatives WERE considered.

IF the problem is as simple as not having O2 manufactured, there MIGHT be a workaround to wear the mask and just breathe the outside air. But.… is it really just an issue of O2 production or could it be the pressurization and regulation process (which could also very easily cause loss of conciousness). Or is it an interaction between the OBOGS and some other onboard system that is causing the problem? Or ?????? Before you risk some very rare, and very expensive airframes AND of course the wet wear behind the rudder pedals, you need to KNOW what the problem is, not just suspect that you know.

ok, got it. so they can’t or won’t figure out what the problem is, and they can’t or won’t develop a solution, which you probably don’t think is even necessary. USAF readiness is hit back by the grounding of the fleet, and we can’t retire the aircraft F-22 is supposed to replace. thanks for your input.

Good Morning Folks,

The problems with the F-22 appear to be very serious not unlike the problems that ended prematurely, the service life of the F-15 A,B and early C’s. I won’t go into them, but they are being widely discussed on other sites.

Since this issue has been vetted on defense tech I will not repeat myself. The problem here besides the F-22 is the creditability of the USAF and it Chief of Staff General Schwartz.

General Schwartz has repeatedly put out false and misleading information on the F-22 since the Libyan affair started. He now is in the same position as Sec. of State Colin Powell was with the so called mobile chemical weapons labs in Iraq that turned out to be helium generators for weather balloons.

Now the questions that the American public must ask are. When was this problem fist noticed?

The F-22 flies over the northern Virginia area that is densely populated, did the USAF intentionally endanger civilians buy not acting sooner on this?

Was this like the F-15 a problem that was know pre manufacturing but decided that it was not likely to come up during the service life of the aircraft?

Then the biggie, although there is about a quarter of a trillion dollars already invested in the F-22, will the “fix” be worth it. It appears as the days pass that the F-22 is a major all around screw up by the USAF. It’s really not the fault of General Schwartz, although it happened on his watch.

Is it generations of Air Force officers involved in the F-22 program that gave a wink and a kind to problems, perhaps in fear of not getting a post service job.

It is generations of Air Force officers who saw problems but were afraid for career reasons to speak up.

Was it because a contractor or several contractors knew that the Air Force project managers wouldn’t interfere, and shaved material requirements here and there for a little more profit.

The procurement system is broken and it the tax payers who will have to pay the price.

ALLONS
Byron Skinner

Pamela Anderson is a Master Sgt?

Nope

Sorry so many of you are in such an uproar over some war machines being
grounded for a while. I think we should all be proud of Pamela Anderson however.

She has come a long way since Tommy Lee and Baywatch, after all.….…..

Just a small-town BC girl done good!

The F–17s are still at Tonopah, not Davis-Monthan and are kept in flyable condition, in fact there is still one flying test missions.

I believe about $77 Billion has gone into the F-22 program.

its first flight was 14 years ago… probably wasn’t rushed. however, 14 years of a potential problem only being recognized as of recent is ridiculous.

The trainers cant handle near the amount of speed and G’s that actual fighters are capable of producing. For example: an F-15 is only considered over G’d above 9 G’s, resulting in an extensive inspection performed by the crew chief that the jet is assigned to including, but not limited to: checking that all aircraft panels secured by high torque screws have not been jarred loose due to vibration (you can research the amount of panels and screws there are on a jet). T-38’s, which is the trainer typically used by future F-15 pilots are only capable of withstanding about 3 to 4 G’s, and considered over G’d at about 2.5 to 3 G’s. In a high speed dog fight, which is what is practiced once graduated to the actual fighter from the trainer, could hinder the functionality as well as the life of the pilot who has to step back down to a trainer after his jet has been grounded if he or she tries to do the same maneuvers as in his or her own jet. As for the Aces of World War I reference, I’ve also come to the conclusion that you are ignorant, and would love to see you constantly refrain from blacking out when you pull anywhere between 4 and 8.8 G’s (which for you I am assuming is anywhere between 1200 and 2640 lbs. being forced against you) twice a day for about 1.5 to 2 hours. That’s assuming your fat ass could even fit in the cockpit of course. Don’t you think these guys have other means of keeping their skills up to par other than watching a smart ass comment referenced by you?

“Generations” of USAF officers did not know about this problem with the oxygen generator. In fact OBOGS system is common on a number of USAF aircraft.

This problem could and would be fixed sooner if the aircraft was getting the proper funding and continued production. Those 187 aircraft we will have are the most capable air-superiority aircraft in the world and it would be a complete waste not to fix this.

Considering all of the countless ways the government wastes my tax dollars I would gladly some of that go towards the F-22 program and do something useful.

china and russia have a stealth fighter safety or money

Windows 7 needs patches. Toyotas have brakes that fail. IPhones have built in flashlights that don’t work. The more complex a machine gets, the more it is prone to failure, we all know that. This is simply a small error that was luckily caught and will be addressed. As to the needs for the stealth program, there are many enemies that don’t use current or next generation air defense which stealth tech will still provide a advantage over. And you air boys know that the next gen fighter will be unmanned right?

“One word… Lockheed Martin and the other Prime Integrators.”

Ummm…I think you need to count again.

Well stated Pucken Dog. Obvious with the responses you received, you either hit a nerve or indeed pissed off those feeding directly from the trough. By the way can any of you Pentagon folk perhaps hint at where it is that the 25+ billion or so might be that you can’t seem to account for. Your ass needs a indepth financial audit perhaps as bad as the Federal Reserve does with indictments awaiting you after the results instead of retirement papers coupled with lucrative contracting jobs. You people are a financial disgrace to our nation.

So entertaining to watch discussions by people who think they know what they are talking about who really don’t! :-D

You are SO right. For every ten comments, maybe one has enough validity to make it true, but which one ( if any ) is right? My son is at Elmendorf as an avionics spec. on F-22’s, and is so frustrated with the lack of useful work he is assigned while waiting for tech reps and brass to decide something. He feels lucky that he is getting orders for Edwards AFB, and their F-35 Test and Eval. squadron. I’m afraid he might run into the same frustrations as he finds with the ‘22s.
F5guy

Obama Administration have been enemy of F-22 and any other supremacy of USA’s Force…for me is very clear Oxygen or other problem to stop F-22 Fleet would be a good reason.

The OBOGS was a low-bid item designed by a Chinese sub-contractor that went to school here in the U S and then pilfered the plans, the manufacturing was done by muslim Indonesians, and the hacked computer code of the unit was performed by teenage Phillippinos!

The same crap happened with the Sergeant York air defense weapon. It was eventually scrapped when it couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn during a display for congressional representatives THAT AFTER THE DIPLAY REFUSED ANYMORE EXTENSIONS OR FUNDING. It was mainly pushed by the General in charge of air defense because the armor department had recieved the M-1 Abrams the first new tank in over twenty years. Not saying they may not have needed new equipment too, but it should have at least been based on something usable and not the desire for a new fiels artillery piece to keep up with the Jones’s. It was failed to begin with because of using an old M-48 hull and new turret. I’m sure more pieces of crap will be built for selfish reasons in the future too.

There is no definitive proof that either of those systems can track stealth aircraft, let alone the F22. Yeah, good idea…let’s not look and try new technologies, I guess you are also a proponent of Obama effectively killing the space program and NASA. We can always book passage with the russians, right?!?

I agree with your basic position but you are incorrect about the inability to communicate. The F-35 is fully interoperable with the current fleet of aircraft, the F-35 does have a unique waveform specifically for comm with other F-35s but it can still use existing radios and data links. The F-22 has a partial data networking capability (can’t get into the details)…

You forgot, we can’t even afford welfare and healthcare for all the deadbeats around as well…put that in your argument. That is causing the real destruction of America…a welfare state mentality…lying to Congress and the ‘big’ corporations is just a insignificant part of the problem.

So, why is this a problem now? The Raptor has been around a long time. What changed to cause this issue? I’ve worked flight test programs on the F-22 at Tyndall and Langley and this has never been an issue. L/M, you want to step up and tell us what you did?

Rats! I meant to hit +1. From what I’ve read F-22 using IFDL and F-35 using MADL could communicate with each other now via BACN, and F-22 may in the future (obviously iffy, depending on future funding) receive MADL so they can communicate directly with F-35s.

Pukin Dog doesn’t know a misinformation program when he hears it. The rest of VF 143 ought to tell him that he doesn’t represent them. The OBOGGS system has been around for years on many jets; this is just the latest version. Whether it is the true reason for the “grounding” remains to be seen, if we the public are ever told the truth. As my naval career taught me numerous times, the best way to hide a secret was in plain sight. Ground the fleet, blame the O2 system (logical cause of Alaska crash), fly the jets anyways, say nothing. It is the perfect cover. Back in the mid 1980’s, the F-117 flew along the East German borders numerous times. The Soviet built radars never responded to the intruder as they would to something like an F-15, –16, etc. This was before the jet was announced to the world. It confirmed that Stealth worked. And it still does; ask Groom Lake (as if you could?) Sorry Pukin Dog 01, you have it all wrong and will continue to do so. The F-117 that was shot down was targeted by electro-optical means, not some sort of radar mumbo-jumbo that some people want you to believe.

Man! If that isn’t the damn truth!? Or pretty close! :D

The liberals will try to do anything (I mean anything) to ground this super capable aircraft from being flown or used in combat.

Get the aircraft into the air and get flight time logged!

Fix it at all costs. We taxpayers are happy to fund all military programs. Money is no object.
And keep those overseas bases operating at all costs.

Amusing. Ever heard of an AF pilot show up at a US base without his bag of clubs? Look in the bomb bay for them if they won’t fit into the cockpit.

What if it ain’t broke?

portable O2 bottles, just like WWII. Should have gone with the Boeing version.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Nothing is going to change. The Generals need their toys and a Defense job making millions when they retire from the military. It’s a hole we can never fill. F-22. F-35A,B, & C, Super Hornet, New carriers, New subs costing billions and kids going hungry in this Country, it just makes me sick.
Retired US Marine

Ok stealth works, yes pylons would weaken the success of the stealth but not seen and assumed to be a fat bird stills means we kill mark, as for the f-117 shot down stealth works a first year trained stinger operator can track and kill most flying targets up to mach 2 and not even break a sweat, soo wow means other then radar to shoot down planes OMG. Is it true im not dreaming pinch uup we made stingers obviously got them, the reason I mention stingers they can track heat signitures or free fire depending on settings wow maybe that’s why we have chaff in our fighter, now I could go on other tangents but we will all believe what we whant and I choose understanding of facts not ranting about congress, no I don’t agree with 90% of what current administration is doing but **** you guys are selling your rights down the river with the way you vote so stop winning and do things right with your voice, as far as anything else goes, we will never know all the facts untill there is no need for it to be secure and with the way we are as a nation that’s never. You choose the right MOS you enter basic with the presidents security cleareance about a 3rd tear and it goes UP UP UP and UP from there but look at this forum we ****, *****, and moan in open and tell all and wonder why we can’t be trusted LOL got to love IDIOTS not I actually really dislike stupid people and actions.

I’m not certain how accurate this is, but this what I’ve heard regarding the F-117 that was shot down:

The Yugoslav launcher was run by elements of the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani. According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Dani detected F-117s by operating his radars on unusually long wavelengths, making the aircraft visible for brief periods. According to Dani in a 2007 interview, his troops spotted the aircraft on radar when its bomb-bay doors opened, raising its radar signature. One of the missiles detonated near the F-117A by its proximity fuze. Dani said he kept most of his missile sites intact by frequently moving them, and had spotters looking for F-117s and other NATO aircraft. He oversaw the modification of his targeting radar to improve its detection. Dani also claimed that his battery also shot down an F-16.

Why not just upgrade the best fighter in the Air Force arsenal,the true BADASS,the F-15?

Wow Skinner! The procurement system broken. News at 11:00. Keep the insights flowing. Still haven’t learned to spell or type I see.

It really does cause me dismay to read these comments. I’m not talking about whether the facts are straight or whether the reasoning makes sense. I am appalled by the poorly written comments which purport to be in English — or even in grammatically correct “Americanese.” Doesn’t anyone proof-read their writing before they submit it? How can people expect other people to care about what they have to say, if those who speak don’t care how they say whatever they wish to convey?

As JSFMIKE pointed out the oxygen thing could be a red herring. I mean think.…the F-22 is so classified that most of the people here really dont know much about it.

Now on the stealth topic.…The F-117 is more easily spotted on the newer radars. Also the primary means of reducing radar signature is deflection and it is helped by RAM. However if you have a whole network of radar stations, those deflections have to go somewhere. And the newer X band radars do improve the detection of stealth aircraft. My point?

Stealth is not ZERO visibility but rather delayed detection. Delayed enough to give the aircraft a chance to strike and get the **** outta there before the SAMs/AAA/enemy fighters can get him.

And one final point, IR signature can NEVER be erradicated and it NEVER will be. The only way to erradicate it is to reduce the temperature of the aircraft AND its exhaust down to the same level as the surrounding air. Now think why is this impossible? You are talking of several hundred deg Celsius gases coming out of the engine. No ways that they can be cooled down to ambient temp in the space of a few feet. Sure you can mask it a bit by placing the exhaust between the tail surfaces (think A-10) but not erradicate it. And second, whats happening on the aircraft when it is flying at 300–500+ knots? Friction. All the surfaces on the aircraft warm up above the temp of surrounding air and that WILL make the aircraft stand out.

So…Stealth is not useless it just improves effectiveness of the aircraft and safety to the pilot. Thats a good thing so yes it should be kept up. But I say it shouldnt be taken to the point where it will completely erradicate the presence of the aircraft cuz that is just not possible and even if it were…it would waste a crap load of money.

They should use the MSOGS system that is in the F-15.

Boeing has several upgrades for the F-15, just that the congressmen would rather see the F-22 pushed rather than a tried and true fighter upgraded that would save money and have higher sortie/mission rates. Lockheed never could build a decent fighter. Only reason Boeing gets the credit for the F-15 is because of the good work that McDonnell-Douglas did on it, and Boeing now gets the credit now when they inherited the aircraft when they bought out MDAC.

Lets look at the real problem? Commanders and plotters who desingnate route assinments.
This was by far the worst, Fly the pattern in and on the way out fly the same damn pattern

Seems strange that they can build a fancy new highly capable fighter that is so complex that they or the manufacture can charge huge $$$, Then suddently the ozygen system is faulty? Divers can dive the deep sea, other aircraft can keep their pilots breathing.… and the most advanced aircraft the USA can produce, the proclaimed world beater, is grounded for something as simple as life support for the driver.

Ever think about the stress it can put on the driver. Maybe, just maybe, someone isn’t paying attention to the old fashion envelope. Just a thought, without trying to cover any part of the anatomy.

You missed that the Navy can’t inspect a weld and hell, one well placed tee shot by the Army on the prime real estate of the Air Force could sink the whole damn sub fleet. Just saying you’re giving yourself away.

You’re wrong. I’ve tried to track F-22s with modern military radars…not easy. It’s actually much easier to track and target the cruise missiles you hint at. Also, get your adversary SAM terminology right. I could only care slightly less if the S-400 can track it…what I care about is the acquisition and target tracking radars on the ground.

yech I hope you can’t get moronitis by seeing supremely ignorant rants on a computer

Don’t these aircraft come with a warranty? I just purchased a new washing machine and dryer, and they have ten year warranties. You’d think for $138M each you’d get some kind of guarantee that the parts would actually work as advertised! I personally wish we had hundreds of these planes, but not if they can’t be kept flying.

No they cant and im sure that the us isn’t going to let russia test there missile radar against an f-22, the f-22 skin probably cant be detected if it was 100 ft in front of the stupid missile system

the radios dont communicate with other aircraft because it is to reduce chances of being detected by someone honing in on the radio frequency and the aircraft communicate through symbols popping up on each others HUD

an airshow im going to is going to have an f-22 on display, no fly bys but it had to fly there some how

So much for comments “being free from slander.”

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