NATO splinters over the Libya endgame

NATO splinters over the Libya endgame

President Obama’s political opponents evidently got bored criticizing and embarrassing him over the U.S. role in the Libya intervention — it hasn’t come up for awhile now — but the campaign is still Topic A in the European capitals, and it has taken another twist: France is breaking with the U.S., U.K. and other NATO allies by saying that the NATO bombardment will stop if Libyan strongman Moammar Qaddafi agrees to talks with the rebel alliance. Although France says it still takes the position that Qaddafi must eventually step down, the message from Paris on Monday was as soft on his regime as it has ever been, a clear concession that the French government wants to wrap up this misadventure soon.

Here’s how the foreign staff of the U.K.‘s Telegraph newspaper put it:

Discussions between both sides have been going on behind the scenes for weeks, but Qaddafi’s future has been a major stumbling block. The rebels have so far refused to hold talks as long as Qaddafi is still in power, a stance which before now none of NATO’s major powers has publicly challenged.


[French defense minister] Gerard Longuet also appeared to leave the door open for Qaddafi to remain in Libya. When asked whether it was possible to hold talks if Qaddafi had not stepped down he said: “He will be in another room in his palace, with another title.”

So Paris would apparently accept Qaddafi as Chief Potentate Emeritus, or something, under the New Libya — quite a reversal from all those weeks of public unity about there being no future for him. Here’s another detail from an earlier story:

The Italian foreign minister, Francesco Frattini, has already called for negotiations, while Alain Juppe, the French foreign minister, in a separate interview also suggested Col Gaddafi could stay in power while negotiations took place.

“The question is not to know whether he must leave, but when and how,” he said, adding that he had no answer to the question of whether he could stay in Libya if he stood down, or would be allowed to seek refuge elsewhere.

But as the Telegraph points out, there has been none of this repositioning in Washington or London:

In response to Mr Longuet’s comments, the US State Department reiterated that Gaddafi must go. The Foreign Office supports this stance.

The next moves probably will depend on events on the ground. If Qaddafi dies or surrenders, this point becomes moot. But if the allied bombardment drags on, don’t be surprised if more countries begin to support France’s offer to end the campaign in exchange for a real cease-fire and negotiations. France wanted a quick, clean, 1991 Gulf War-style adventure with this Libya intervention, but as Secretary Gates pointed out, that has apparently proved too much for NATO, so now all it wants is for it to end.

And the Americans’ perspective? The White House may not talk about this until right up until the moment negotiations begin. No reason to remind Congress about Libya when it seems to have lost interest, and especially if Qaddafi gets to stay in Tripoli after all the tough talk in Washington about him stepping down.

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Let me see now, the theory is that you kick around the hornet’s nest until you get just a tiny little bit tired and then try to make happy face with the head hornet? Yep, Ive got a firm grasp on THAT theory of operation. Too bad that this particular tactical approach was not OT&E’d by its authors on a real hornet nest before we tried it in Libya! ROTGL! (which is much better than rolling on the ground being stung by a swarm of very upset hornets!). Where is Mr. Reagan when the world needs to communicate very clearly and concisely with our good Mr. Qaddafi?

The elite Hillary led NATO killers continue to massacre Bahrain and Libya civilians. Now the NATO killers jail doctors and nurses for saving lives. The elite Hillary and Hussein cabal lust for Libya oil and military drone bases to attack all countries with Moslem and Islamic people. These fanatic elites live by TNT (Torture and Terror) developed by the republican George Bush and his henchmen.

Obama’s is in this to the hilt. His campaign is partially riding on a Predator getting lucky.

Hillary is a squad leader?

That woman is so talented it boggles the mind, is there anything she can’t do?

She and Susan Powers were key proponents of this train wreck mission.

Who’s that?

Samantha Powers , sorry.

Obama Takes Hard Line With Libya After Shift by Clinton http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​0​3​/​1​9​/​w​o​r​l​d​/​a​f​r​i​c​a​/19…

i’m sure now, US have stopped his direct action for see one situation like that, many europeans don’t forget that.
One thing is sure, like USA in irak, all conventional weapons was destroyed, but when we live in one world where when we kill one civilian that make big scandals, the situation is bloqued. I think all future conflict was similar, we win largely in conventional fight, but when we “cant” make error (civilian target..), we losing in the long term.

As Susan Powter used to rail, “Stop the Insanity!”

Highly recommend Gideon Rose’s book from last year “How War’s End”. It explains how a lack of preparedness for conflict endstate is a common thread in U.S. history at least since WWI. Throw in the Alliance, and it becomes even more challenging.

Oh, that makes more sense. Thanks for the correction.

Next up: Syria. Gotta give Nato something to do. And these third rate countries are much less risky than
the foremer Soviet Union.

Did anyone expect anything different????? This is a no win any way you look at it. Lets get out take a break, kill some bad people in Syria and maybe a few other places just to make sure our troops are earning their money. No end game in site, should mean no start, but with the cheese burger in the W/H it makes no difference as long he is spreading our strength out to weaken us its fine. Ya stop the insanity, which I would also suggest to to stop blaming people who have no power make decisions as of this time. This type of cry baby crap takes the blame away from the people who are killing our troops today, they can be brought home at a rate of about 3,500 a day if thats what the Cheese Burger really wants.

France—— once again is all in to start a fight, but the first to leave!

France is giving up? Who could have seen that coming??? In their defence they always have an endgame ready, surrender.

Hahaha, post before your dose this morning?

Wasn’t it George Patton who said he would honestly prefer a German division to his front than a French division to his rear? :-) Just sayin’!

Typically French. What can be said about them that hasn’t been said.

another US general saying: if i was the french armed force leader with american budget, i will be the world master

prove that, except WW2
france leave USA against brits? certainly…
Can’t learn one history lesson by people who live in one country who was born in 200 years, you have many centurys of history before that…

France finished its defense budget in late April of this year after destroying the Ivory Coast. Now it is costing the $1.4 million a day above their defense budget in Libya and they have run out of money.. So it isn’t just the usual French heroics, their military is broke. That’s also why they are abandoning Afghanistan.

@ gullible “Thinking_ExUSAF : “I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me” is a fake quote, period. It was made up (presumably by some PR consultant) during the massive worldwide PR spin led by the Neocons (you might remember that your oldest ally warned you Americans NOT to start this mess, and got only contempt and — as in this case — slander in return). I defy you to source this “quote” : you never will be able to, and for the abovementioned reason you’ll never be able to trace it earlier than 2002. Gal Patton had fought alongside French troops during WW I and had nothing but utter respect for the French fighting spirit.

AN INTERESTING, RESEARCHED COMMENT FOUND ON SNOPES​.COM :

Patton served in France in both World Wars and his “War as I Knew It” has a number of warm anecdotes about his experiences with the French. In addition, he had the French 2d Armored Division assigned to him during three separate periods. He complained long and loud each time they were taken away from him.

Patton was fluent in French and enjoyed socializing with the French people. He thought highly of several French officers, especially General Juin (who advised Patton on where best to penetrated the Siegfried Line) and General Giraud. Giraud had earlier served in the Metz garrison and provided Patton valuable advice as to how best the Third Army should attack it. In return, Patton made sure that his 4th Armored Division sought out and rescued Giraud’s family, whom the Germans were holding prisoner in the vicinity of Weimar.

Patton’s wartime memoirs are full of acerbic, candid and distinctly non-PC observations, but I didn’t see any disparaging comments about the French army. On the contrary, when the 2d Armored (French) and 4th Infantry (US) Divisions arrived in Paris, Patton was tickled to hear the French troops had proudly announced to the press that they were still part of the Third Army (much to their disgust, they had to be transferred to the First Army to accomodate their participation in Paris’ liberation).

The only time he mentions problems with the French was, during the drive on Argentan when General LeClerc heatedly complained that he was not being allowed to attack fast enough — never a type of complaint to upset Patton’s temperment. “In spite of a little rough talk, we parted friends,” Patton concluded.

The only other time he mentions anything remotely critical of the Fench Army was when he related a dinner conversation he had with an old WW I friend, French General Koechlin-Schwartz, who had been a leading instructor at the Army General Staff School at Langres. Patton asked him why he thought the French Army performed so poorly in 1940. Koechlin-Schwartz blamed it on the French Army’ emphasis on the defense during the 1930s. And that’s as critical a passage as I could find.

So, in my humble opinion, the “quote” just doesn’t seem to fit with what we know of Patton

ANOTHER COMMENT ON SNOPES​.COM :

I read a biography of Patton, a pretty short one aimed at a junior-high level. I recall a scene during the invasion of North Africa when there was some kind of obstacle in negotiations where American officers were trying to secure the cooperation of French forces on the scene. They had brought a complicated formal proposal, various measures of which were objected to by the French.

Patton, as the American commander on the scene, listened, thought a moment, then tore up the agreement, and said words along the lines of: “Gentlemen, in the last war, I acquired a great deal of respect for the word of a French officer. I suggest we don’t need any formal agreement. We will do this and that; you will do thus and so. Agreed?” The French said “Oui” and off they went.

It doesn’t prove Patton might not have made the remark, but he still doesn’t sound like someone who would disparage the French fighting ability (or spirt) in general.

Not too long ago there were 7 countries without a central bank. Iraq now has one, and when Libya falls, there will only be five left. (I realize the terrorists … I mean rebels, have a central bank). Funny how if you follow the money, it all leads back to the fourth reich, you know, the new/(one)-world-order. And, as Rothschild proclaimed, (paraphrasing) “give me control of the money and I care not who makes the laws” — ’cause, he’ll be above the law by being able to buy off the lawmakers, as seems to be the case today in every country that has a central bank.

Well, I think that when considering the current state of affairs, we have to consider the French participation in WW-I and even the Napoleonic Wars, where there could never be any doubt about the French soldiers’ “fortitude”, even though even the French sometimes question the quality of their leadership in even those instances. We in the US have not always set the gold standard for intelligent and stalwart military operations, so… we must either be careful about the pot calling the kettle black, or simply point to each others’ “faux pas” in a mature and considered but hopefuly, humorous manner.

If Patton made that (in)famous remark about the French forces in WWII Im sure it was based on SPECIFIC issues he had with the commanders, and particularly the politicians, at the time and not because of the bravery of the individual soldiers. Afraid that even today we here in the US have never managed to completely corner the market on dumb politicians, even though from time to time it appears that we have tried! Perhaps Im not quite so gullible?

In spite of everything, I do believe that most of Le Clerc’s Free French were armed with M-1s, Thompson SMGs, and Colt ACPs, eating bread, beef and beans from Nebraska, and driving Sherman tanks, Dodge trucks, and Jeeps. Most notably, however, they were USUALLY more than happy to kill Nazi occupiers, even if not always in the manner and at the times prescribed by the Allied joint staff! :-)

@ perhaps-not-so-gullible “Thinking_ExUSAF” :

No “if”, please. Patton never made that (in)famous remark. If you have any doubts, just try to source it or to trace it on the Web pre-2002.

“even if not always in the manner and at the times prescribed by the Allied joint staff! :-)” …
… That is an interesting point. Leclerc, Juin and De Lattre were pressing for quicker action. Let’s not forget that the initial US plan was to bypass Paris, in order to avoid long and costly urban fighting. Leclerc pressed at military level, De Gaulle pressed at political level, and finally Leclerc got a reluctant green light from Eisenhower. He was proven right : liberating Paris was quick and caused limited casualties. The same nearly happened again a couple months later about Strasbourg, recently liberated (by French troops acting so quick that they got the Germans by surprise, making thousands of unexpected prisoners — once more in spite of US reluctance) but under the threat of a German counter-offensive (codename Nordwind). In this case, the French General in command of French troops in Alsace simply ignored instructions from his US superior, and gave orders to dig in. At the same time De Gaulle screamed at Eisenhower, who naturally screamed back but finally realized both the symbolic importance of Strasbourg and the political impossibility to deny support to the French, and ordered his general in charge of the Alsatian front to change his plans and fight alongside the French. Hence Strasbourg was saved from near-certain destruction (Hitler had publicly vowed never to let the Cathedral of Strasbourg fall into French hands again), and is still a gorgeous mediaeval city, where American veterans are always welcomed guests — largely thanks to all those Sherman tanks, Dodge trucks and Jeeps :-)

“in WW-I and even the Napoleonic Wars, where there could never be any doubt about the French soldiers’ “fortitude”…

… Not just in those wars. In 1940, the quality of French leadership was appalling, but the French troops DID fight. In fact, the Germans had casualties far higher during the few weeks of actual, full-scale fighting, than even at the worst times of WW I, and that’s saying something. Of course what happened on the Belgian and French front in 1940 pales in comparison with what happened a couple years later (especially on the Soviet front), but the Germans had more than 150000 casualties (and lost 800 tanks + 1200 planes) in a couple weeks ! The men they lost didn’t die from the common cold, and the 300000 French casualties didn’t get killed or wounded by being shot in the back. The French were crushed by superior tactics and logistics (and by an army both larger and younger, reflecting German/Austrian demographics).

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