Surface Navy: ‘We’re not good to go’

Surface Navy: ‘We’re not good to go’

A pair of top Navy officials admitted Tuesday that its endemic readiness problems are basically unresolved — and may keep getting worse — before the service’s plans to fix its surface fleet finally take effect. Vice Adm. Bill Burke, the Navy’s top maintenance officer; and Vice Adm. Kevin McCoy, head of Naval Sea Systems Command, told a House Armed Services Committee panel that it took so many years, and so many interconnected decisions, to put the surface Navy in its current state that it would take a lot of time and effort to get it right again.

“We have a good plan,” McCoy told committee chairman Rep. Randy Forbes, a Virginia Republican, “We’re not good to go right now.” In fact, he said some negative indicators “may turn a little harsher.”

Over the past five years and beyond, Navy inspections have found that a growing number of the Navy’s surface warships aren’t ready to fight: The ships are in bad physical shape, carry broken equipment, insufficient spare parts, and can’t even rely upon their advanced weapons and sensors. But despite years of embarrassing reports in the press and harangues from Congress and top DoD officials, the fleet has been slow to recover, given the wide range of causes for its woes. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, when the “running government like a business” craze swept the Pentagon, top leaders rewarded commanders who could get the job done for less money, which then sparked a flurry of inter-related decisions that had the net effect of reducing the readiness of the surface Navy:


The Navy fielded smaller crews, making fewer hands available for regular maintenance; it cut human-led, hands-on instruction, preferring to teach sailors their jobs using “computer-based instruction,” which meant they weren’t qualified to do their jobs at sea. And simple budget cuts meant ships didn’t get the regular maintenance or spare parts they needed. On top of all this, Navy commanders blame an increase in operational tempo, which meant more demands on their smaller, poorly maintained fleet, which meant less time and money to do the full-scale repairs ships need to keep them in service for their design lives. Crews realized all these problems at the operational level, but it has taken years to get the top brass to acknowledge the failures of initiatives such as “top 6 roll-down,” “lean manning,” and the “fleet response plan.”

According to Tuesday’s hearing, all those problems are more or less still in effect, although Burke and McCoy told Forbes they acknowledge what’s wrong and they know what they have to do to fix it. The surface Navy is doing the inconvenient, expensive maintenance it has long put off, McCoy said, because it now accepts the need to keep ships around for their full lives — something the Navy traditionally has not done. McCoy gave the example of the cruiser USS Chosin, now in dry-dock in Hawaii: Initially the repair bill for that ship was estimated at $35 million, McCoy said, but when engineers did their deep inspections and discovered the state of its tanks, pipes and other equipment, they realized they would have to spend $70 million to get the ship into the best shape they could. This is why McCoy and Burke warned the Navy could continue to have bad results on its inspections, as long-hidden problems finally come into view.

McCoy and Burke said that about 70 percent of the Navy’s hoped-for fleet of 313 ships is in service today, but the service can only get to that goal if all its destroyers and cruisers, for example, actually serve for their full 40 or 35 years.

But Congress has heard Navy leaders give this explanation many times before, Forbes said. He pointed to statistics that showed an ever-growing number of Navy warships were being found unready each year — from 12 percent in 2009 to 24 percent last year, and 22 percent already this year. What is the Navy’s target for that number? Forbes asked. McCoy and Burke said the service is in the process of formulating one, but it’s a complicated situation. Forbes complained that defense witnesses always come before Congress with a plan for how they’ll get better, but they seldom appear to be able to act on it; as when DoD was unable to even conduct the basic audits of itself that officials promised they would.

McCoy and Burke repeated that the Navy is “stretched” by the number of forces it must provide to combatant commanders, who Burke said want more carriers, aircraft and submarines than the Navy can deploy in answer. Burke, a submariner, said that combatant commanders want between 16 and 18 nuclear attack submarines at any one time, but the Navy only has enough to deploy 10. He and McCoy said the Navy wasn’t forcing commanders to miss missions, but that the rate of operations today was affecting the surface fleet’s ability to do maintenance and could hurt the service lives of its ships. Overall, the admirals warned, today’s operational tempo is “unsustainable.”

But Forbes alluded to a classified report from the combatant commanders that he suggested found the Navy was forcing them to miss missions, although he said he and the witnesses couldn’t talk about it in open session. Forbes also blasted the Navy’s decision to under-fund its depot maintenance for ships and aircraft, a calculated risk by service officials to defer work in order to afford other priorities. Forbes hinted at a high “cannibalization” rate in the surface force, alluding to the practice in which crews’ swap their ships’ equipment when inspectors are due so they aren’t dinged for non-functional gear. Although surface sailors quietly talk about this practice among themselves, it’s very seldom broached publicly, and the Navy brass denies it happens.

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It appears that spending 500 mill plus on each LCS which are then found to be defective anyway would be better spent on restoring the readyness of the present surface fleet. As money will be the issue, Navy leadership will have to be put in place which is demanding and willing to think outside the box including incorporation of non-nuclear attack submarines and Eurofrigates and joint development of the Perseus missile system with BAE.

Chosin floated last week. She’s not in dry dock any longer.

Let’s make sure we always pay the defense contractors a profit on every day they drag out the development of these ships, then let’s pay them an additional profit for every dollar they can jack up the cost of both the development and the production phase of their contracts, because that’s working out so well for us. Stupid people and their money should be parted, and we’ve got defense contractors ready and willing to do just that.

So when is the Air Force going to admit the same with its aircraft???

Seems to me that the Navy want a 313 strong fleet but is incapable to maintain it. Maybe it should strive less to get the 313 number and make sure that the ships in service are in a ready state.
I’m talking about refunding the Navy, not cutting its budget!! Take a good look at its logistic and maintenance facility.

It appears the Mullins and his additional 1000 Afterburning Targets is still in the works with propaganda. Mullins has to show is worth and panic everyone like a good little “Integrator” prior to retirement. This is phatic. The Navy is a DEAD ISSUE!!!! JSF is a DEAD ISSUE!!!! How many ships does it take to do NOTHING???? The answer to that is Ask Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin Ship Works. That is where all this rhetoric is headed. These “GAPS” are none existent. JSF, B-2, NGB need to be cancelled as well. WE have enough Joint Stand Off Weapons to Destroy any Target. What we need to do is Shit Can the Navy and Give the entire Package to the Marine Corps. The Marines will tell you exactly what they need and why. The Navy does not have a Clue. The Senior Leadership of the Navy is worthless. They are padding their NEXT Position after Retirement. Cost, Capability and Warfighting be damned

The Only Fleet we Need is one that Makes things happen. We have ENOUGH DAM SHIPS TO CHOKE A HORSE. When was the last time we had to SINK A SHIP utilizing another SHIP???????? 1942????? Give me a Break. Give the Marines the Entire Navy.

MORE FUNDING AND MONEY is always the Answer.… More funds for Wall Street, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, makes Wall Street Happy.…. If bush would have went directly after UBL as did President Obama we would not be in this current mess. However, we did not track down UBL from the beginning for one reason.… MONEY!!!! The Prime Integrators i.e. Lockheed and Northrup Grumman want the war to continue until hell freezes over for one reason.… MONEY, Stocks and Wall Street. These integrators are greedy and of course bush was a complete moron. So here we are again, listening to the Navy complain about how they do not have the capability needed, when they are NOT NEEDED. We have wasted an entire Generation of Warriors, Capability and Funding for Greed and Wall Street. The Integrators are having a hard time being taken off the TITXXXX of never ending funding. This War would have been won years ago had we went after UBL to begin with.

Now the Integrators are Hooked on Money and addicted. JSF, B-2, NGB and F-22 need to be Stopped and defunded. STEALTH IS DEAD.… Google SA-21 and S-400. Let’s stop supporting morons at the Pentagon and Wall Street and Focus on the Warrior and what he needs. This Country is upside down, when yesterday a Hero received the Medal of Honor at the Whitehouse and it was not broadcast on the News. This shows the lack of RESPECT, just like our unfound remains of our Warriors at Arlington National Cemetery. These morons would rather watch the Morons from the Tea Party destroy this Country. They should all be Ashamed.

The high speed of the LCS is nice, as is the large helicopter deck and a few other features. Yet many of the planned modules seem to have vanished, it has all sorts of problems, and it still costs too much. We ought to halt production beyond those already in progress (we might as well finish those) and start building a relatively cheap, but well-armed, frigate.

As for non-nuclear attack submarines, I personally don’t believe these are a good fit for the US Navy. They typically operate at ranges where nuclear power provides a huge advantage.

I haven’t heard of this Perseus missile until now, but it should certainly be considered for the next generation anti-ship missile the Navy wants.

You should see a psychologist about whatever this is.

Saying “Google the SA-21″ doesn’t prove anything. The Russians would tell you it could do ANYTHING in order to sell some. Do you honestly believe aerospace companies have ignored the potential threats their aircraft may face?

@VF 143 Pucken Dog 01 what for a sense have this permanent span. You said nothing what can be considered as serious you bring against only platitudes and Russian and Chinese propaganda with brain-bound Ideological comments from masked communists like Barney Frank! As consequence the most people are just ignoring you.

I beginning to think what VF 143 Pucken Dog 01 will just flooded this Blog with brain burned Spam the most of Pucken Dog 01 written Postings are just copied Text parts, it seems what he has not any interest in a real discussion.

I see Harvard trained MBA’s have left their mark on our Navy as well as on the Banking Industry and Wall Street. They won’t fix it until some banana republic’s navy blows an Aegis warship out of the water with a barrel full of Chinese Fireworks. Civilian-managed DoD authorities only move their behinds when they suffer embarrassment in the press in keeping with all good theatrical tradition.

the U214 for example is harder to detect compared to nuclear attack subs and still provides a lot of littoral capability. It would complement nuclear subs. It is more lethal than the LCS at the same price.

Can we consider this moron a spammer, the same as the people who clog up this site trying to sell shoes and purses? He literally contributes nothing but paranoid, borderline insane, nonsensical rants about nothing.

Part1

As a 43-year Navy guy (36 uniformed, officer and enlisted), I’d REALLY like to see a non-military assessment of the NEED for a Defense department as big as we currently maintain. That assessment would include an honest risk assessment with out-of-the-box analysis of questions like “Under which circumstances would China attempt a militarily subjucation of their biggest commercial customer?” And, how could/would THAT be accomplished?

Ultimately, we must ask ourselves (and our supposed military and civilian “leaders”) about the notion of a Defense Dept that is really an Offensive (invader) Department. With very limited success i might add. If we cannot easily overrun/control 3rd world countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, why do we continue to spend more than the rest of the world COMBINED on this activity?

Please see part2 for the balance of my comment. thanks.

Part2

We simply must start acting in a way that makes best use of our limited resources. What is the tradeoff of spending money on the most deserving smart people’s education vs buying another carrier or submarine? Do we even ask that kind of question any more?

I’d suggest that the Defense Contractor lobby is too strong for any politician of any stripe to propose redirection away from them. Too bad America.

Hardly a big surprise. The primary goal of every Navy staff officer (<O6) is to win an MSM. For O6s it would be win a LOM, and for the Navy flags a DSM. Your program doesn’t have to work–it just needs to succeed to the next budget cycle. Buildiing good ships is too hard, therefore the leadership has concentrated almost endlessly on stupid uniform changes. In the meantime our Navy has become one (apologies to President Lincoln)…of the contractors, by the contractors, and for the contractors. Case in point: the Zumwalt class destroyer which has 50% greater displacement than an AEGIS cruiser and 67% of the weapons load. Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus because the Zumwalt class brings 15 new technologies (half of which are unproven or don’t work). This is proving to be the biggest present ever given to the big five defense contractors, at greater than $4 billion per ship for only three ships.

Maintenance folks — Same old story.
Not enough, of anything, never affecting OPS but might could.
This article could have been written in the 50s as well as now. Nothing changes in the Maintenance world.
Well meaning initiatives like the “Lean Crew” idea simply means there is no one available to clean bilges, water tanks and the endless dirty work.
One thing about areospace maintenance. If the Maintenance is not done, or improperly done, the systems tend to fall out of the sky.
Ships more than likely, simply don’t get under way.
end
Semper FI

After Review of the Posters.
1. DOD does indeed need a thourgh house cleaning. Long overdue.
2. USAF, USMC, USN and yes the Coasties, all have to do the DC Two Step, in order to get funds to do anything. Lots of rhetoric.
3. When the real whistle blows, as many here will recall, maintenance stops, the systems are used “AS IS”. We tend to forget that there are Sailors and Marines sittting in and on consoles of systems that defend the various systems they live in.
4. Denying a problem does not get it solved. Congress generally will give whatever is needed. Top Rankers are very far removed from the real problems. Computer readouts dont tell the real stories. Engineering inspections do. AKA the ship in Hawaii.
bt
Finally, understand we depend on these folks with their systems. If we, the USA Electorate continue to allow the denigration of the Sailors and Marines systems, then when the barbarians come over the wall, do not whine and carry on.
end
Semper Fi

I have to say that the Navy is different from other arms of the military in that it takes so long to build ships compared to planes and tanks and such, due to their size, complexity, and the fact we don’t have a shipbuilding industry in America anymore other than the naval shipyards. We can — and should — put off buying JSF’s for the Navy, but you can’t just stop building ships unless you want to stop having a Navy. As for the notion of not having a Navy, the U.S. is protected from any real enemies by two very large moats called the Atlantic and the Pacific. Without a Navy, those moats shrink to the size of roadside ditches. So this needs to be fixed, and if it takes going back to basics and properly manning the ships and the maintenance depots, so be it.

God forbid we should go back to what worked when we had a 700 ship navy. We would never want to go back to a fleet designed by the Naval War College (a design politburo — gasp!). No, we prefer to pay contractors at a profit to design our ships. Then we can’t figure out why it takes them so long to complete the designs. I mean, they couldn’t possibly be dragging things out so they make more profit, could they? No, surely not. They’d never do that, nor would they jack up the cost of the ships so they could make more money off building them. It is purely a coincidence that they make more money when the jack up costs. That’s all it is. Clearly our system leaves no room for improvement at all. Just ask the government contractors.

I don’t know the answer to this problem in this day and age and under what is going on in DC, Pentagon and Congress, and in the civilian world in one side wanting increased spending at the expense of the Pentagon and some wanting across the board cuts in spending. I am a retired Viet Nam era sailor who saw the results of a lack of maintance and upkeep from the Viet Nam era while stationed on a repair ship. I saw the PEB cross my ship to a tin can that had been rode hard and put away wet. Sometimes the ship didn’t even make it out of port before it returned and the entire engineering dept leaders were leaving the ship because of safety failures and mechanical failutes. Look to see more of that in the future if the heirachy don’t get correct their cranial-rectal inversion.

As a 23 year enlisted Navy vet it seems like there same old story but with a couple of differences. 1. Where are all the Destroyer Tenders and Repair Ships … gone either decom’d or scrapped. I wonder how many ships have a machine shop and a competent machinist on board. Now when things break, call a tech rep, pull and send it to the Carrier or IMRF, or just get a new one. And how many of the younger sailors can actual fix anything mechanical.,.there lie the problem…

As for the U214, good for “defense” of your own shoreline, not so good for offensive or defensive operations on someone else’s shoreline. Consider the very small nuke powered French Rubis class SSNs; all of the advantages of a nuke boat in something less than 2500t. Modernize some of the specific technologies and you retain the long unrefueled operational capability at perhaps a lot less cost than a 7800t Virginia SSN! (Geeze, am I actually using the French as a good example.… guess if the shoe fits… :-) )

Even with the hull cracks and corrosion problems of the LCS prototypes, I think that you have to accept that these “first of their kind” ships are going to have issues just as “first out” aircraft do. Those kinds of things have got to be anticipated even if the actual manifestations are unknown. The issues with the mission modules are perhaps far more important in the end result. The purpose of the LCS was (at least originally) to support and deliver “mission capabilities” into a patrol or combat zone. If the ships haven’t got those mission capabilities (aka modules), then all we have is just another small, (supposedly!) relatively cheap frigate with a patrol boat caliber deck gun and lots of sillouette for bad people to shoot at!

Guess thats just “good program management” principles in operation, at least in terms of the career advancement of PMs! (But only so long as the end result is pushed far enough out into the future that a PCS or retirement of said expert is insured! LOL!)

Glad to see that you are at least an equal opportunity heckler! LOL! But you forgot the Marines, Army, Coast Guard, IRS, Post Office, mother, apple pie and baseball! :-) Id recommend a couple of Tums, a nice glass (or two) of merlot, a good nights sleep and perhaps a little bit less Texas Pete on those well aged and moldy MREs. :-) Adieu, mon ami!

shipmates know not how to fix anything, send it ashore. no training.they say who needs tenders, they do thats who

It doesn’t help that we pay multiple contractors to design their own ship for the bid and the Navy has to pick the one they like best (or hate least). There could be huge savings realized if even one private firm designed the ship (working with the Navy so it was a joint project) and then have the yards bid on it, one design, as is, as close to the Navy wants as you can predict from a bipolar organization. That would help limit design creep (but only some) and it would allow the Navy to only put in what it wants, not what the shipbuilder wanted them to to make it easier and more profitable to build.

The ships are going to be around $3 billion to construct with $12 billion in R&D, so for 3 ships they are really more like $7 billion when R&D is included.

Agreed, well put.

Same old problems that were part of my daily life for 23 years in the Navy. Maybe it’s time to actually take up a defensive posture and forget all this power-projection stuff. After all, there’s not a single country who has the “lift” to deploy forces in our direction and get them here intact and there never will be given today’s technology both in surveillance and weapons. I think we’ve amply proven the absolute futility of fighting these “limited” wars since WWII. If we’re not attacked or in imminent danger of being attacked, what the hell are we doing in third-world pestholes except getting a lot of people killed? If kicking out a dictator like Saddam isn’t worth spilling their own blood, then screw them. If the Afghans don’t want to change, screw them too. Let’s mind our own business and defend our own borders. Plenty of work to do there anyway.

As always its about money, US in Debt SHYTT ROLLS DOWN HILL, greedy contractors we feel the effect to the fullest. Smaller overworked crews on run down ships is just the beginning, Remember if you cant deal with the navy’s bullshytt get out, thats what I plan to do, and i been in 10 years.

Tel ‘em Sailor! I hope you are running for some elected office where I can vote for you, I’ll work on your campaign. I’m also a 23-year Navy vet, and I’m with you bro. It’s coming anyway, we won’t be able to afford DFM for all our pretty DDG’s in a couple years anyhow!

Mmmm, people don’t seem to understand that our military’s job is not to prevent an invasion of our nation. Yes, no one can invade us and suceed. But they don’t need to.
We now import so many things from so many countries that if we don’t defend those nations, we will suffer terribly. For example, there is no magnesium in the US. We get ours from Africa. Without it, you cannot make steel, you know, the stuff we need to build everything from houses to ships to cars to toasters. We import more than 1/2 our oil. We import almost all our electronics. We import just about everything now, thanks to the systematic de-industrialization of our economy.
So if we don’t “Project Power” to countries we buy stuff from (which is about all of them) and they go down to an unfriendly power, we are done without a single shot fired.
And that means we NEED a powerfull Navy. Period.

Is it a co-incidence that our navy is just now not able to do it’s job shortly after they put women on combat ships? I know it’s not politically correct and all, but I remember we suffered though some hard budgets in the past and were still able to do the job, with the exception of the auxilary ships. Those were always broken down but had 60% women on the crew. The guys I talked to said they hate serving on them cuz they had to always help the girls on their work. Fact is, 10 guys can do a lot more physical labor than 10 women, and don’t kid your selves, most Navy jobs are hard physical work. I wonder if anyone will even bother looking into this for fear of being labelled un-PC…

I respectfully submit, Captain, that “spending money on the most deserving smart people’s education” is not an answer. First, it is the “smart people” who have gotten this country into the mess it is. Second, money and education are not synonymous. On the contrary they are inversely proportional: the more money spent, the less education achieved. How many high school grads today know what state lies above Missouri, for instance?

This is just the case of politicos trying to run the Navy and the Senior officers who allow it to happen. The maintenance types can only do what they have the material to work with. Cannibalizing one ship to *up* another for inspection is a common occurance wether or not the brass chose to admit it. As for the size of the fleet thats basically a non issue as long as they cant even keep the ships and subs they do hace adequately maintained why should the Navy get more? The operational temp the ships and subs have is simply grinding down the present fleet readiness. To allievate this problem they should send the ships into repair facilities and LEAVE THEM there until they are brought back up to full readiness. The present time in repair is more of a *lick and a promise thing* do just enough to get the ship back on line. I am a hospital corpsman (fmf) RETIRED AND know little of seagoing needs of ships but even I know you can only use a ship or piece of equipment for so long before it becomes utterly useless and a drag on the fleet until it is properly maintained and repaired. In WW2 the Navy had deployed in excess of 20 carriers of all classes with supporting vessels as well and did it with no problem. Something is not right in that area…now we cant even support and maintain a 318 ship Navy? Why? The political brass and the politicians dont want to spend the money to maintain them and then complain that the ships maintainence levels are poor? To be honest I smell money the more ships deadlined the more the defense contractors have to build to replace them. There is an expression used by hospital corpsman with the Marines that applies here.…we the unwilling led by the unknowing are doing the imposible for the ungrateful we have done so much for so long with so little we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.….the Navy IS RAPIDLY APPROACHING THE POINT OF DOING EVERYTHING WITH NOTHING WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THE BRASS HATS AND POLITICAL TYPES WANT.

I have been retired 52 years — it all started sometime RIGHT AFTER WWII — do more with less and become antiquated.

Too Much politics…!! Insufficient funds, lack of manpower training..railroad way of maintenance..fleet commanders more focus on politics rather than abilities and readiness.. Not telling the truth about fleet readiness-instead there continues the unceasing cover-ups which downgrade the ability of the Navy to perform it’s mission successfully.

WE ALWAYS HAD THE CAN DO SPIRIT IN MY 20 YRS BUT WE COULD REPAIR CYLINDERS AND MANY THINGS BUT THINGS CHANGES WHEN I WAS RETIRING IN 1974. WE COULD NOT REPAIR ANYTHING, TAKE IT OUT AND SEND IT TO A REPAIR FACILITY. WE ALWAYS HAD SPARE PARTS BUT THAT WAS OUTLAWED ALSO

Another mislead Democrat. To think that war doesn’t BOOM the economy is a falsie. Proven in history that a country booms war. Jobs are created in factories and military support. Whne the goverment spends money it goes right back into the American economy. Keep waiting on your “CHANGE” that Obama promised just make sure you are waiting in line for your free English as a second langue class!

The 18th of April 1988, the USS Simpson sank an Iranian gunboat the Joshan in the Persian Gulf. You can either verify this by going to the USS Simpson or you can check Wikipedia. As a former member of the crew and ESWS instructor for Combat Systems Department, that was an answer to one of the ESWS questions that we faced on our board. When we pulled into Boston alongside the USS Constitution, that was the first time since WW2 that two ships that had sunk other ships had been alongside one another.
GO NAVY BEAT ARMY!!!

This did not happen overnight and it shouldn’t be a surprise to our current captains and admirals.
They were steaming these ships as the ships accumulated their current worn-down condition.
They and the preceding senior naval officers had a responsibility to make this accumulating state of affairs known to their reporting seniors in the Executive and Legislative branches of government.
They had an obligation to be adamant and honest in their reports to their civilian seniors even if it cost them their self-beloved careers. But they didn’t and here we are.
This same situation occurred during the 1960s and resulted in a “broken down” Navy in the 1970s. The same lack of intestinal fortitude prevailed.
Moral courage used to be a grading factor on officer fitness reports. Maybe it should once more become a major factor the evaluation of an officer’s fitness for promotion and retention on active duty.

The maintenance went down hill when the Navy decommissioned the AD and AS repair ships. A ship in the Med could go alongside a tender and get almost anything fixed. Now the have to depend on foreign ship repair facilities that do not have the expertise to work on US Navy ships

Navy05Ret,

After my commissioning as an LDO engineer, I served as boilers officer on a carrier and three tours as the CHENG on large deck amphibious assault ships. It never failed that as soon as the ship went into a scheduled maintenance period, the Operations Officer would start from day one asking if we could get done sooner than scheduled due to the ship being needed for some commitment. It was always a battle between the engineers and ops and many times much needed repairs were delayed.

The only way to get a true assessment of a ship’s material condition is either by having an INSURV or PEB inspection. Ships being under manned and deployed continuously wears down the crew and the ships suffer as a result.

Also, I don’t give a damn what the Brass says, having women as part of the crew made things much worse.

I’m 63 y/o. I joined the Navy at age 17 in 1965, and I retired at age 59.5 in 2007. I have watched this computer silliness go on and on. You can NOT teach someone tasks in front of a computer. To learn to jump out of an airplane you have to jump out of an airplane. To learn to do brain surgery, you have to do brain surgery. Yet over and over all levels of the military are reducing training staff and placing kids in front of computer screens and then pronouncing them “trained.” Basic pedagogy theory teaches that we only remember 10% of what we learn in a classroom from a lecture. It’s even less in front of a computer. Let’s get real with this. I own several computer and use them all the time, but a computer can NOT replace a human being for training. I suppose that boot camp will be next in front of a computer screen.

Funny, most of you blast the contractors, which are a proble, and indeed the career-protecting actions of officers, again no argument there.

what surprises me is the fact that the biggest problem is at there is no leadership or discipline in the Navy anymore. Tail hook, TQL, and Quality of Life initiatives took all that away. Sailors get overpaid to do less and less; and except for submariners, aviators, and spec war to continue to leadnthe way; the surface forces are pathetic.

It’s a microcosm of society..how many of your 18–25 year olds are motivated to leave the house and work for a living? The Navy pays m to live out in town, when I was in, no extra money. The sense of entitlement that they have is three hundred times more than the work they put out. They don’t care about their work, don’t take care of the equipment, falsify training and maintenance reports; all so they can continue to play Halo or text on their phones. During a recent tour, I noticed a large screen tv in each workspace of th ship, connected to either an Xbox, Playstation, a WII, or several. Seems to me the emphasis is on fun, not on being professional Navy sailors. They don’t even take care of their own anymore

No wonder they are in the pits. Leadership has to man up to fix all of the problems

Anyone who has gone to college in the last 30 years has heard about grade inflation. The Military,as a whole, and the Navy, specific-ally,has done the same thing over the last 30 years +. We have a ton of flag officers holding billets that once were held by Captains(Names Changed). If the services cut back on some of those STARS, they could afford more STRIPES who would get some of that maintenance done. BZ to Tom Workman, whose comments re. AD’s/AS’s are right on target.

Let’s call this BACK IN THE DAY. I am a 27 year retired combat disabled
veteran. I have extra time
to more time to think
due to an Iraqi mortor round. I started in the Navy in 1979. Post Vietnam. Anyone who was in the fleet will remember the drug abuse. But even with that. Sailors had pride in their job and a lot were proud of the Navy. As a gunners mate I was very familiar with the term “gundecking”. For those not familiar with the term it is when one purposely fails to do PMS or knowingly skips steps in order to X off the job. BACK IN THE DAY when you were caught you were severely punished at Captains Mast or Courts Martial. Then you most likely got your *** kicked by your shipmates for dangering their lives. That was back in the politically incorrect Navy. Big deal someone lost teeth or blood. We maintained READINESS. Now 30 years later the Navy has lost it’s traditions. Lost its BACKBONE. LOST IT’S BALLS. Now most Senior personnel, both officer and enlisted only care about checking a day off the retirement calendar and to **** with the Fleet and to **** with the others. It was written that commands were encouraged to cut cost cut corners and cut morale. What happened to WASTE, FRAUD AND ABUSE??? In my day most anyone did whatever was needed to maintain operational readiness. It was a sin to have a system down and heaven help you if you had to send a CASREP. The crew would be all over you. I watched snipes strip down to underwear, climb into the engine room and run two big *** diesel engines without the manifold in 180 degree temperature and venting exhaust out the passageway. For anyone who served on a Newport class LST can atest to the conditions these sailors worked in for 12 hours in order to get close enough to the coast to get a seriously wounded sailor on a medivac. If a ship dropped the load leaving port you can bet the whole crew caught **** from the other ships. Because we had something BACK IN THE DAY. IT WAS CALLED PRIDE. You sailors of today. Look it up especially you CO’s. Start worrying about covering your own cute *** and remember YOU ARE THE NAVY. Set an example for others to follow. I never once saw a sailor punished for thinking out of the box, as it is said today. We called it COMSHAW. It wasn’t the right way but by King Neptune we kept the ship operational and WAR ready. Just because the Soviets are gone don’t think for a moment that the COLD WAR is over. Better to be tried by three than carried by six. Dmmit. Take pride or CNO would you like to see a bunch of ale carts show you how to run a ship and the Navy. Take politics out of your stupid heads and join LIFE. It’s not like a box of chocolates. Take it or loose it. But get GIV-A-**** back.

SFC/MA1/GMG2 combat retired and ashamed of what MY NAVY has become. Remember F.I.D.O.

Where does all the money go? Haze grey Birdfarms –End of story .…

Why doesn’t anyone else post their real name. ? Afraid to be Politically Incorrect? Like this dang site want let you talk like real people? Have to say CRAP, PEE, DANG, OH GOODNESS, **** OR BUTT, give me a poo poo break. The defication is SO deep. Act and be MILITARY.. NO GONADS
NO BLUE CHIPS. KISS MY
50 YEAR OLD POSTERIOR
FOR SAYING THE (WATER
HOLD BACK DEVICE ) TRUTH. BOHICA

Steve — magnesium is used in flares; manganese is used in making steel.

ENC USN RET
The tenders were life savers The SRF in Subic and Guam had some of the best repair techs anywhere in the world they could fix anything except a broken heart. The Navy leadership today is very poor to PC and bows to stupid pols

Well said on both parts. We need innovative leadership ready to make deep cuts and stand up to lobbyists and the status quo. Change is coming, hopefully we have leadership who is willing to answer these tough questions.

You want out? Then get out. Losers do not need apply. Help fix the problem that upper leadership can’t. In my day, we kicked a problems **** and drove on. We didn’t cry about the problem till AFTER we fixed it. Usually laughing at management who flew a desk.

I have been out for 20 years, we did not have as many problems as they do today. We strived to be the besţ. I do think however, that many of today’s military problems stems from from Washington DC. There are to concerned about what they can get for themselves. The Regan era believed in a strong defense, not having gay rights

Now you say Bush should have went after bin laden? Like Obama? History check. We, the USA, supported the rebels during the Soviet invasion. One of those rebels was bin ladin. Bin ladin hated that the Infidels were helping. He vowed revenge. He made good on several fronts. But let’s go back to the CLINTON administration. His was the first to be alerted by CIA that he needed to be taken out. They found him via satellite in the desert playing falcons with friends. Clinton was advised he was definitely id’ed and positioned. But oh my. A plane, C-130 from a supposed friend nation. So CLINTON refused the cruise missle attack. A few years later. Associates of bin ladin, under his orders, bombed the USS Cole. This was in the same country as that friendly C-130 came from. So it seems that Clinton failed to act. In turn allowing the death of US sailors. If anyone can name a President who did not mess up while in office. Please let us all know. Obama is living proof of life after miscarriage.

You are so quick to disparage the role of the Navy. when was the last time the Marines won a war without Navy support? No, no, no, not that one either, no, and no. Not once. Maybe you should try educating yourself, instead of living up to the Marine stereotype. The Navy has a much bigger role than just sinking other ships.

Actually it probably does help when the Navy has two or more contractors compete in a shipbuilding program. At least then there is some small amount of competitive pressure to contain costs, though obviously given the costs of the LCS, there’s not much. Let’s go on pretending the current ship procurement system is working, just like we pretend it’s working for aircraft, tanks, bombs, and bullets. After all, it’s making defense contractors rich, so what could possibly be the down side?

I used to work for SUPSHIP — which one is unimportant. I had 44 years of service and wasn’t seriously considering retirement until, one day, the word came down that we were supposed to be “teaming” with the Contractor. We were supposed to be PARTNERS with the Contractor. I took this to mean that I was supposed to find new ways to put more taxpayer dollars into the Contractor’s pockets (isn’t that what a “partner” does?) The Government can NOT be “partners” with private industry.

So I retired. In 2007. Couldn’t be happier. SUPSHIP was, at one time, the best civilian Navy employer of them all. No more.

I have spoke out on several comments. I am one of the few who does not care about PC. I publish my name, state my opinion and I DO NOT CARE what anyone thinks. I joined the Navy in 1979. I spent the next 27 years being military. Changing with the
times into PC BS. Not that I
wanted to but because politics said so. Now that an iraqi mortor round took away my life and forced to live this way. I officially state that PC is for losers. Nobody wants to tell it like it is. Just bend over and take it. Well not anymore. The DC politicos have ruined the military. Let’s save a dollar and kill another service personnel. Back in the day. If it was broke we fixed it. If it was still broke we stole another one and kept on keeping on. Not sitting around wondering what video game to play next. We had SIMA ‚AIMA, TENDERS and most of all independent thinking and the abilities on ship to stay mission ready. We had regular inspections of ALL systems then REFTRA to make sure we knew what we are doing and how to fight and save the ship. Now I hear a bunch of underage, under trained children saying how bad the Navy is. Well listen up sailors. YOU have the ability to make things better. But NO. You want to sit and cry about getting your toys than being MILITARY and fixing the problem you bunch of cry baby *********. If I went into battle prepared like you circle jerks. I would bring back a lot of dead bodies. We adapted, improvised, overcame and kicked posterior. I want to say it like real people talk but this PC FORUM will not allow cussing. Do I care that I might have offended someone? I hope so. Get a life you active duty punks or get thrown out with the other trash.
SFC/MA1/GMG2 combat retired

This is why I left the navy in 1999, thanks to the political ******** of the Democrats who dismantled in the 1990’s the Great Navy and military as a whole build at great expense by Reagan in the 1980’s, and made the Pentagon think it was a business (like the article points out) “…In the late 1990s and early 2000s, when the “running government like a business” craze swept the Pentagon…”

We are STILL paying the price for the Clinton years… when he took huge amounts of money from the military to make the make believe great economy of the 90’s…, which was a lie! And that is why I and many others like me walked away from the Navy, in my case with 13 years under my belt and just 7 more years away from retirement, because we KNEW this crap was going to happened, it was already beginning back then… no spare parts, no nothing! But hey, the “economy was honky dory, Monica, come to daddy”! The fools, we are NOT Sweden, we are not Belize, we are the United States, the superpower of this world, and the ones that (like it or not) have to do the job of cop of the world! This is what happens when you get morons in the White House making policy, morons with no clue what the military world is like….

Sounds like you need to pull your head out of that dark smelly place; it’s definitely clouded your thinking. Obama said for years, and campaigned on the idea, that we didn’t need to “get” Osama (use the internet to pull up some of his speeches about reaching out to him so “we could all get along”), then as soon as the military does the job, he wants to take all the credit. to paraphrase a great leader, as a military genius, Obama has proven that he is neither.

I remember preparing for a INSURV inspection, just a few years ago, when we spent hours every day cleaning all of our spaces. the inspectors came aboard and one of them looked at the equipment. The Combat Systems Officer (a commander) asked him what he thought. The inspector replied that in his opinion, it should be CASREP’d for lack of maintenance. The CSO’s response? “Yes, but look how clean everything is”.

As for designing and building combat and auxiliary ships. Let the ones who know how to do it do it. I mean the Navy of BACK IN THE DAY. We can design a ship for a lot less. Keep jobs here. Stop outsourcing. We have proven designs. With a little modernization a ship can be built for a fraction of the money in fraction of the time and WORK. If Congress of DOD would ask us. We would have one helluva military. But NO let’s close more bases. Such s was just done to Fort Knox. BACK IN THE DAY you did not have to
travel over 500 miles without hitting a major military base. Not now. Less bases. Less ships. Less aircraft. Less armor. Let’s invite the new country, South Sudan, to come on over. Someone earlier stated that no other country has the ability to invade. Back during the Clinton administration he closed Long Beach Naval Base. Then sold it to the CHINESE as a duty free zone not subject to US inspection until it leaves the port. How many RoRos and container ships does it take to covertly move a military division or TEN? Wake up people.

I agree with you. I’ve seen so many changes over the years, and not for the better. The Navy, and the military in general, was rock bottom during the Carter years. Then Reagan came along and we swelled with pride. The military was growing and getting things done. We were proud to wear our uniforms, we worked hard, we spent months and years away from home, but we were proud to do it. Then the 90’s brought Clinton into office and everything started down the steep, slippery slope of political correctness. I remember buying cleaning supplies out of my own pocket because our consumables budget didn’t exist. REFTRA was moved back to the US mainland so people could stay at home. Training slipped, maintenance didn’t get done, and everyone turned a blind eye. Today’s Navy is just a bad memory of what it once was, and I don’t see things improving in the immediate future..

Is that how you deal with all your problems? Bury your head in the sand and leave it to someone else? Somehow I get the impression that you’re getting out will benefit the Navy much more than it does you.

They could as easily send an entire infantry division across the Rio Grande. There are news stories every week about the Mexican army crossing the border. The Chinese have the largest army in the world, and as much as it hurts me to say it, if they invade we wouldn’t have much of a chance.

Instead of running down the Tea Party, which is trying to restore this country that the democrats are actively trying to destroy, why don’t you focus your blind rage on the party in power. Why not ask those who are in bed with the mainstream media. You’ll find out that the only time they care about the military is when it furthers their political careers. You should ask quickly before they find a way to tax that Medal of Honor.

You want out? Then get out. Losers do not need apply. Help fix the problem that upper leadership can’t. In my day, we kicked a problems **** and drove on. We didn’t cry about the problem till AFTER we fixed it. Usually laughing at management who flew a desk.

You sound so ignorant “Wooo lets kick some ***, **** yeah! Go America!” What did you(/we) accomplish in the 70’s or whenever you were in? Nothing, besides. This is about sailors, not the marines, or front line infantry, or any other combat ready gun toting soldiers. We are talking about huge floating cities and complex equipment that isn’t being maintained. Not about whiney kids who hate the military. THE NAVY DOES NOT NEED JARHEADS to run a sonar shack or track contacts, or repair complex electronics. Sometimes those people aren’t front line soldier material, but their minds are still needed. You may not like that they play video games and are in the military, but the needs are different now, the navy needs active intelligent minds as much as they need grunt work and work ethic. JARHEADS can protect the brains the same way the fists protect the face. All that being said I do think the navy is way too PC, however there is nothing major for the navy to do, no tactical puzzles or triumphs to achieve. So now the 0–6 or commander is a policy pusher and figure head for the navy, not a brilliant strategist, because that is what the navy needs now.

Mr Hunt before opening ones mouth know some facts. I started my career as a GMG. Serving on the USS Fairfax County LST 1193. Then I was precomm crew, 2nd phase, USS Ticonderoga CG47. Maybe you have heard of these? I then changed rate to master at arms patrol/explosive dog handler. Worked for protective services for two Presidents. I served on bird farms on down. Then I left the Navy for a job offer in law. No need to detail that because as you stated, know nothing about the latter unless you were in jail/prison. I served in two conflicts and a war. On the ground both as a sailor and a cavalry tank platoon sergeant. Got blown up in Iraq. Big deal. Served 27 years before being retired due to wounds.

Now child. I have been to and served in 28 countries. I’ve been blown up, shot, burned, poisoned, beat, tortured in my career. Now let’s look at this. 12 years active Navy, 15 years Army. 16 years law enforcement. This is military​.com which means ALL branches. Where does it say I can’t speak MY peace. Who made you GOD to tell ME what to do? I EARNED THE RIGHT TO SPEAK BECAUSE EVERYTHING I TALKED ABOUT I WAS PART OF. NOW CHILD. I PUT MY CARDS DOWN FOR ALL TO SEE. NOW YOUR TURN. BUT you want because you are a CHILD AND LOSER. Don’t **** me off or I’ll teach you a lesson you’ll never forget. Punk

This is supposed to be an intelligent reply. CHILD grow up. If you could read correctly you will see I stated that I served from 1979–2006. What did I do CHILD OF THE GREAT VIDEO GAME. I DID MORE IN ONE OF MY NAVY DAYS THAN THESE PUNKS NOW YOU INCLUDED. Want to compare 201 files? Come on punk. Speak up. Meet you anywhere and we will see who has done more. My 100% combat disabled body against your pudgey sweaty out of shape punk CHILD body. Don’t **** off a crazy man. I don’t give a crap about you or your screwed up beliefs. You prove what most of us have said. YOU AND YOUR KIND ARE THE REASON THE NAVY IS HOSED TODAY. FOXTROT OSCAR. If you need that last translated ask a REAL SAILOR. PUNK

There is nothing wrong in playing video games, however there is a world of difference in playing video games and actually learning how to do even the most basic maintenance. I remember a time when liberty was granted AFTER all maintenance was done. If you didn’t get it done by 1600, you stayed aboard until it was done. do that often enough and it was reflected in your evals. Nowadays, these young sailors are whining and crying because they have to stay until noon, and the maintenance isn’t being done. I see it every day where they don’t do it because they won’t learn their own equipment. Half of the time, they won’t even show up for watch on time. The command just turns a blind eye, and hopes their next command wuilol straighten them out. Especially if they’re female. No one wants to tackle that monster.

The demokrats turned this country upside down.

Out sourcing is the name of the game. Jobs that were routine going to civilian shops. The Old timers that had the knowledge were being forced out. It was decided that Tenders (ADs & ASs) were to expensive to operate and maintain. Crews on Surface ships and Submaries more closely resemble operators that repairmen. Equipment breakdowns the direct result of operators who did not follow operating instruction posted right in front of their noses. Are we flying tech reps around the world (at no small cost I might add) to fix basic problems such as a blown fuse that or a switch that needs to be fliped, don’t laugh! I have see it! How in the hell can your fix anything if you don’t understand how it works. Most Chief Engineers have never see the inside of a pump or have an inkling of how it works. I have dealt with Engineers that did things that they knew violated Regs because they didn’t want to ask NAVSEA for deveations to spec. I was once nicknamed “Reator Red” because of my blow ups with Brass Hats that could not follow Regs in the Nuc repair community. Where are the Men with Balls? Are they to busy covering their asses than do the right thing. And you wonder how we got to this point.

Why does the Congress insist that we spend money for military projects that are not wanted and then being told to cut costs even at the expence of Fleet Readyness? Something stinks in DC!

Steel and saltwater are a very, very expensive combination, both in terms of manpower and materials. We have been locked in two land wars for ten years and the DOD budget rightly goes where it is needed the most.

Competition in construction is great, but the Navy should work with a design firm to design the ship they want so they don’t add and subtract later on. Plus then you don’t spend about $1 billion on 2 seperate proposals to just choose one to proceed with, half the money you spent is wasted and the Navy still isn’t getting just what they want so they have to change it.

It’s easy to look at “Greedy Contractors,” but as a vet who now works for one, when I go onboard a US ship and am working on a system, where is the young sailor who is responsible for the equipment that might learn something while I’m there? Liberty call? Berthing? I don’t know, but they aren’t looking over my shoulder for sure. If you think you can’t learn anything from me, why am I on YOUR ship, fixing YOUR gear? My Chief would have been up my @$$ if a civilian was on my system and I wasn’t there trying to learn.

I post my real name. Last names are unneccasary as far as I’m concerned, but I post my real name. I do agree that some more people should, or at least not have such foolish posting names.

The Navy denies that “canibilization” happens??? What a croc!! As the Assistant Operations office for a large submarine squadron in the 80’s I can positively state that it does happen on a regular basis. If a part was transferred from the supply stores of one submarine to another it was called a “Material Transfer”. However, frequently the part would not be available in stores. Consequently the part was removed from the operating system of a submarine that was not expected to get underway immediately and transferred to the boat that did have to get underway. This is “CANIBILIZATION“and happened more frequently than it should!

The Navy and the military needs to stop trying to run as a business and get back to it’s mission of adequately and ably defending the nation. Politicians do not know how to run a military and it is up to the senior leadership of the military to stop sucking up and stop covering their own asses and educate Congress on what IS necessary to complete that mission. In addition, the senior leadership needs to stop pushing for super whammydyne toys and concentrate on what makes ships, submarines, aircraft and weapons systems work„„„,PEOPLE!!! In WW II and until the early 80’s the Navy had the knowledgeble SAILORS and facilities to operate cranes, supply ships, manufacture parts and repair ANYTHING THAT WAS BROKEN. We didn’t send stuff out to be fixed or bring civilian contractors in. If stuff broke at sea you fixed it there. You didn’t run back into port to have a contractor repair it. .

Speaking as an enlisted man, with 20 years experience in amphibious surface ships and submarines, you can automate systems to run themselves but you still need the SAME number of sailors with skills to fix the stuff when it breaks It was the sailors who tore stuff down and fixed it when it broke, both inport and at sea. It was the sailors who cleaned ships, who chipped paint, who primed and painted to maintain the preservation of ships, who greased cables and repaired rigging, The military was self reliant and we did it for a lot cheaper than it costs to bring in civilians and contract work out

Maintaining a fleet, ships, planes, land vehicles, needs to be done with the proper tools, parts, and training.
In the air force…“no tools…no fly” In other words, no maintenance…no fly. It is cheaper to maintain than to build a new carrier.

Via email to: Rep. Hall, Sen. Gillibrand, Sen. Schumer, Pres. Obama
Washington DC

March 5, 2009

Dear Mr. and Mrs. Yertle:

I apologize for disturbing you as your economic philosophy continues to make wealthy people poor, and poor people destitute; but if those of your ilk stay true to form you will attempt to balance your social agenda on the back of the national security efforts of the United States. Further, if past is prologue, you’ll make a list of the highest cost programs and begin to chip away at them regardless of how they fit into the overall tapestry of this effort. Before you do this please ask President Obama to secure from our enemies, current and future, an agreement that they will not attack us or our allies. Maybe Mr. Obama can get the same agreement that Prime Minister Chamberlain had Hitler sign?

I bring up the most infamous goose stepping Nazi because, one of, if not the sole reason we and our allies crushed his brand of evil was a result of the meteoric advances in aviation in that time. Admittedly this worked both ways, the French built the useless Maginot Line — only to have it defeated by a Nazi flying an air cooled piston engine with a set of wings that could generate enough lift to overcome its combined weight. As the decades past the United States military has required airplanes that fly farther, faster, and higher. These characteristics enable the military to meet it’s objective of securing this country by sending a clear message to other nations around the world; if you choose to fight in the air, you will lose, so don’t waste time and resources trying. Unfortunately, they did not get the message. They began to innovate methods to detect and destroy our aircraft, surface to air missiles, shoulder fired missiles, and attempt to eclipse our aviation efforts. It soon became clear that to maintain air supremacy we would need an airplane that could evade these threats and still engage the enemy successfully.

At long last we have it in the form of various aircraft that can accomplish this goal to varying degrees depending on their mission objectives. Mr. Obamas budget erodes this capability, and reinforces our current, and future adversaries notion that they can take us in the air. Please stand against it. Military aviation is the lynchpin of our national defense do not allow it to be routed in search of economic social justice (someday someone will have to explain that to me, to give to one you must take from another, just because they have more does not make it justifiable to take it, and in taking it from someone else, you diminish the very desire to make more of it). In fact stand against any effort that would erode our capacity to defend ourselves. In addition I cannot conceive of any greater stimulus for the economy then defense spending. Assembly lines already exist, workers stand ready to create product, lines of raw material supply are well established, and the propensity to spend the profit domestically on research and development is one of the highest of any industry.

In closing, if I were in your position analyzing and debating the cost and benefits of the various parts of the defense budget I would only consider if that weapon system protected my child, while giving him or her the ability to accomplish their mission, would I support it? If the answer is no than I would push for increasing those capabilities that would accomplish that goal. I would never take dollars from that budget to support domestic programs that, but for our strong defense, would not exist in the first place. Frankly, If we are all dead the only program we will need is the body bag program that FEMA runs. Remember that defending this country is an ongoing never ending effort that exists on, and under the sea, on land, and in the air; but if we seed supremacy in the air, or one day in space, no weapon system will ever accomplish its goal of defeating the enemy before they even chamber the first round. We are blessed that we have so many people willing to volunteer to protect us the least we can do is make damned certain we present them with a better mouse trap than the enemy has. If we one day become the paper tiger we were prior to World War Two we will incite the wider wars we work so hard to avoid; if that day comes even you will be singing “Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.”

Respectfully,

Joe Doakes

I live in Maine across from BIW, and can look out across the river and see two Aegis destroyers at $1 billion each at the docks. In the big sheds of the shipyard I can see the first Zummy being assembled. A friend with acess into the ship yard tells me these are the most complicated surface ships built. As for costs i have seen everything from $1.8 billion to $4 billion per copy. I doubt anyone really knows what these will cost until the final invoice is submitted. It’s all exciting for me to watch as I am a Marine vet from the 60’s but even still I ask myself why we need a 313 surface fleet? Who came up with that number? My guess is someone who didn’t have to explain how to pay for all this ‘stuff’ and could afford to ‘blue sky’ their lives away with no concurrent accountability. If the Navy can’t keep its current fleet in shape and working then how in hell will they manage a 313 ship fleet?

As a 20yr. Navy Veteran (both Surface Navy & Naval Aviation).…and while not a member of the TEA Party (yet!).…I find your comments BOTH asinine and insulting!!!
As to the recent Medal of Honor ceremony.…I watched some of it on FOX News!;.….guess cnn and msnbc wasnt covering it huh???
As to obama and UBL.….I gave credit to “resident” (thats NOT a typo!) obama for giving the “GO” on that mission-although there has been some doubt; it may have been in progress BEFORE he finally made up his feeble mind!.…BUT to give SO much credit to obama for the UBL kill is like going to McD’s and Thanking Ronald for the burgers.….its the guys cooking in back that deserve the credit, NOT the “foolish clown” in front.…
2012-We Can/MUST SAVE OUR Republic by sending the dangerous, weak, NARCISSIST, Pompus FOOL, MARXIST-would-be-tyrant, community-agitater-in-chief obama packing for chicago, kenya or B.F.E.!
GOD BLESS/ GOD SAVE AMERICA!

when you are Enlisted you cant fix financial problems higher up assholes in Washington control, honestly what can i LEGALLY do? if you have the answer to that then tell me.

when you are Enlisted you cant fix financial problems higher up *******s in Washington control, honestly what can i LEGALLY do? if you have the answer to that then tell me.

I understand, I am a GM2 been in 10 years and I work on VLS, when contractors are on my ship working I help out till the job is done, im also one of the only ones that did in my division me and the GM1, the others didnt care much. And not all contractors are greedy but some will only do the job for extremely high amounts, im only saying what another contractor for Lockheed Martin told me.

Stop using income tax funds except where they were originally set up for (National Defense)!!!!!!!! Cut the rest of government down to size, which means among other things , Cutting salaries & benifits of elected offcials & do away with pork barrel entitlements!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are right now I may be wrong for saying this but all the navy presence is pure intimidation especially in the Middle East for control of oil. If we secretly control oil in the Middle East by going to war (like we currently are) and cover it up saying we looking for terrorist then the rich ones in Washington secretly get richer. Once again its all about money thats how the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

I have observed as a Naval officer and retiree that most shipbuilding decisions are made by naval officers who are no longer sea-going but rather are now planners, dry-dockers, etc. They design and buiild ships but never go to sea on them — see a problem there? Most of them haven’t served in a ship since they were LTs and now they are Captains and Admirals designing and building ships.
The folks that ride our ships should have more direct input into design and construction. Ships Systems Command is now largely made up of bureaucrats. Consider it.

What does this sound like? To me it sounds just like what Reagan did with the Soviet Union, making them spend on military defense until they could spend no more. Our current President is on track to take us down the same road and to run the United States right into the ground until we are, in fact, so debted to the chinese, that we can start to call ourselves citizens of a Chinese owned colony. Hong Kong is nowChinese, so will New York and Los Angeles, and Chicago. I’m ready to move to a country that is just in the beginning of being totally poor…and maybe starting a business there makes more sense than trying to do it here in the USA. I don’t speak Chinese, or any dialect from China, but I am learning Russian and Ukraine! Ukrane is so poor, there is only one way to go, and that’s up. Keep it up Obama, and you will have accomplisshed your mission.…to turn the USA into ssomething other thana world power!

Sounds lie a likeness of a Dr. Spock has hit the Navy in their training areas? As Dr,. Spock created monster generation of children, it has allowed the Navy’s superior training to be diluted, and all but ruined, in need of complete overhaul today. Go back to the proven method of training and demands for skill…Flush the current modern down the head!

Sir, with all due respect, I have pride for the navy. It might not be pride for MY navy, but it is pride for what the navy was and hope for it to rid the politics and bring back the if it ain’t done then you aren’t leaving ways of life. As an ao on board the nimitz in the docks I can personally say besides the higher echelon, me and one other buddy stay behind to complete the task while others go home, just so we can meet deadlines. We fight and argue with the shipyard workers who take days just to screw 15 cable guards up, and insist on taking our guys away to work with them slowly. Lord forbid if that they take my guys away and I work twice as hard to pick up slack and I get dirty cause of it, then I don’t care about the navy. I lose pride when I get bitched at for completing my task ahead of schedule, I hate the money wasted, constant cleaning instead of real maintenance, political correctness when I’m in the military. But sir, I take pride in the fact that I’m a sailor, I agree politics has ruined a great tradition every generation of my family has helped to create.

You can find my real name anytime with a little gum shoe at Military​.com. Exposing too much information on the web is stupid in my book. I’m an IT security consultant, and throwing your ID willy-nilly all over the web, is a proven folly. I see it everyday, happening to my clients(victims).

Go to an IT forum or tech site and see how many folks are stupid enough to reveal their personal ID! X-(

“If bush would have went directly after UBL as did President Obama ”

You’re a complete dumbass. “Nuff said.

Get a load of MSMO another big Navy idea that is costing millions in maintainence dollars because under MSMO the contractor gats paid even when he does unsatisfactory work. He gets paid as often as it takes to get the job right.

I agree! I retired in 2003 as a GSEC and was apart of ATG (afloat training group) out of Norfolk. My job was to train juniors engineers. Most of the problems, I meet was no train in their techincal schools which are no longer teaching. The electrical training is a must on gas turbine ships. Things go bad on ships electronically systems, if you can not fix the problem you call a tech rep (state side). Not like in the day, fix it shipmate, we now wait for the tech rep ( no training). Before I retired I was involved in a survey to combined electrical and mechanical GSEs into to one rate so the navy could shink it’s manning. I say no way you can do this to our manning of our engine rooms. I did ask the gentleman who was conducting this survey, if he had military service. Yes was the answer! I ask if he was a retired commander, again yes. I told him if the navy needs to save money please get rid of the top heavy officers (01–010) who really don’t have a real job and leave junior enlisted E-1 — E-9’s whom the ship maintain the ships. Please use these savings to buy us repair parts!

To: Hon. Susan Davis, House Office Building, Washington, DC. From: Cordell R. Parker

Subj: US NAVY EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE DISPOSAL COMMUNITY WAY AHEAD.
1. Ma’am, I am a recently retired Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician Seinorchief. I have been assigned to staff duty for my last eight (8) years of active duty. My last assignment was at Explosive Ordnance Disposal Group ONE in Coronado, CA. During this time I watched my community go from one TYCOM to another in less than eight (8) years, 2004–2006 Maritime Force Protection (MARFPCOM) and, 2006-Present Naval Expedition Combat Command (NECC). As the military is directed to cut $400B in funding next year, I have a proposal that will help you as my congresswoman direct attention to, what I believe, an organization that can be entirely cut out.

2. Naval Expedition Combat Command (NECC), is a TYCOM for US Navy Ground Forces. I ask the question, why does the US Navy need ground forces? Every force within the NECC claimant CAN be absorbed by other traditional TYCOM’s in place. This is a factual and indisputable at any level. I understand the need to draw our forces down as the Global War on Terror becomes less burdensome. Before my time, our country made the hard choice to mothball battleships when they were once the pride of the US Navy. This choice would not be as difficult, and is fiscally the right thing to do.

3. US Navy EOD community has always been a force with substantial capabilities not found in any DOD EOD force. Since Sept 2011 all DOD EOD forces have been heavily involved in the ground war effort. However, US Navy EOD is routinely requested by SOCOM forces to provide EOD support for their direct action units due to our abilities to operate in any environment unlike our sister services.

4. My recommendation to you; move US Navy EOD forces under the direction of Special Operations Command (SOCOM). It is my sincere belief that SOCOM would take this asset with open arms even if directed. On a side note to this recommendation the USN EOD Force is currently 300 officers and 900 Enlisted. This ratio is one officer for every 3 enlisted. Nowhere does this ratio exist in the Navy except for USN EOD.

You are on the right track, but the basic problem is that the senior officers, starting with the CNO are the fundamental problem. We went thru this drill during the VN War and by the end 90% of the ships were floating junk piles. At that time the problem could be traced directly to the policies at the top civilian levels of OSD which grossly underfunded the Navy for maintenance over a period of at least 8 years. Today we have selfserving PC Flag Officers who have been addressing the problem by declaring they have “No confidence in a CO” when his ship is reported unready. Fire about a half dozen top level Admirals and you will see solutions to the problems come on line in a hell of a hurry. (Retired Captain USN)

All branches of the military prefer to spend their money on new weaponry vs. maintaining the old. I’ve worked as a DoD civilian for the AF, Army, and now the Navy, and seen this syndrome wherever I’ve worked (flashy weapons favored over practical but boring stuff, therefore our maintenance mode is reactive rather than proactive.) I’d say we need more former maintainers making spending decisions in the Pentagon, and fewer former fighter jockeys, then our corporate culture might favor bolts over bullets for a change.

On a policy scale, if only there was a way to uncouple the Services from the national ego! Our economy is an ever-smaller part of the diversifying world economy, but our policies and politics require that we continue to dominate the world and its oceans. My preferred solution would be to real-size our forces and ambitions to more closely match our means, and at the same time, urge our allies to shoulder more realistic shares of their own defense.

Maintenance is paramont. As divisional maintenance supervisor aboard a cruiser I was chastised for ordering a full working day of maintenance work and preparation for a major inserv. The LPO, Chief, and Division Officer all came down on me for working my maintenace crew 8 hrs a day inport. It came down to working only one half day to do maintenance and prepare for inserv. Needless to say maintenance inspection and inserv was a disaster, and when their finger pointed at me, I did a told you so and broke out the recorded documents that I had prepared. In the end the LPO, Chief and Divo conceived a plan with the inspection team to sweep all of the failed requirments under the rug. that is why in my opinion Maintenace on our ships has gone to heck in a hand baskrt!

Nothing new in this story. Merely History repeating itself for the navy…as it took place during the Clinton years.
I watched this process take place before I retired in 1995. The ships suffered because manpower (yes…not politically correct) was cut short drastically, and those standing watches at sea, and in port felt the pressure of having FEWER people to do the job.
We used to call it PMS…the system of Preventive Maint.…and now…the entire force of ships, and people are truly suffering from Political PRE-MENSTRAL SYNDROME.

As far as being highly complex, I can attest to that. My father is in charge of weapons alignment for the 2 AGS and 2 aft CIGS. He works through problems all the time (though I don’t know what they involve in terms of complexity, that’s classified).

NAVSEA is not getting it’s bang for buck in repair dollars by it’s choice of using cost plus contracts for ship repair. There is no incentive for contractor to work cost efficiently in a cost type contract. In fact the more people he can apply to the job, the more money the contractor makes. NAVSEA needs to go back to fixed price ship repair contracts and put the performance risk back on the contractor. Under the current MSMO contracts the contractor even gets paid to fix his negligent work. We paid a million dollars for a contractor welding mistake on the PORT ROYAL. NAVSEA does not want to hear that cost contracts are wasting taxpayer dollars, because the brass roll right into jobs working for the contractors. The MSMO Sprial II contracts are going down the same mistaken cost contracting path again.

Oh crap, just recommission those big 16″ gunned battleships and get rid of some of those wussy hi-tech overpriced worthless POS’s.

I agree with Luis. Admittedly, Clinton and his wife, as well as, Obama and his wife, hate the military and what they stand for. I enlisted in 1965 and got my commission in 1980 and then retired in 1990 and was proud of what I was able to do for my patients and commanders. Our group didn’t see computers until the late 1970’s and to see the shipboard spaces now you’d wonder if Dell or HP wasn’t a contractor. I retired because of a bad back and couldn’t run the 1.5 mile in my allotted time. We had problems getting spare parts for highly specialized medical equipment because the contractors couldn’t supply the quantity needed across the force. Did you see the sneer when Obama pinned the MOH on the young SOC SFC earlier this week?

Where are the facts that “more money spent, the less education achieved”. What a crock!. Not that it may not be true for some people but to lay that out as fact, and then use a high school graduate reference is ridiculous. Also, politicitians control the funding and federal budgets. I would hardly classify them as the “smart people”. Being a congressman, senator, or any elected official are the only jobs I know that carry massive responsibilities and require know job experience pre-requisites. They just have to convince people to vote for them. Not much different than being your school class president. To assume they are the smart people is.….well you know what they say about the word ASSUME.

Marine Corps requirements really did wonders for the V-22, EFV, and LHA-R (yes, they submit requirements for amphibs)…no one is free of guilt. Other than that, I am mostly in agreement with you, Pucken Dog01.

No shocker! I was complaining as a Chief that going CBT in all things instructional is a bad idea! I also was on a Spruance for 4 years (the bain of the surface fleet) and know the pain of undermanned and undertrained ships. I also complained about NAVSEA loosing the Aegis Training and Readiness program to ATG. It was a classic “you guys have the best training record in the fleet, so let’s change it” routine because some spineless officers couldn’t stand a training command outside of the NAVTRA armpit. The COs on the waterfront felt that they lost the best training tool they had. No, I’m not shocked the fleet’s suffering — just saddened.
EWCS(SW) Retired

I spent nearly 30 years in the world’s greatest Navy and retired in 2002. Sadly the focus of the Pentagon for the last ten years has been putting boots on the ground in Afghanistan, Iraq and building Africa Command in Dujoubti. The once mighty U.S. Naval Fleet seems to have been neglected while the Chicoms are quietly becoming formitable world sea power. There is no way that the United States can maintain it’s status as a world power unless we have a superior Navy and control the seaways that are imperative to ensure international commerce.

Our leaders in Washington should be focusing on maintaining security at our borders, destroying Mexican drug trafficking organizations with airstrikes and search and destroy missions where the narco-terrorists live and get out of the ridiculous notion of nation building and trying to force “American style” democracy on nomads in third world countries “lead” by hopelessly corrupt politicians who care only about where their next check from the U.S. government is coming from!

Good morning folks,

Well i see a lot of complaining here about the current state of the military. So i will ask this question, is there anything positive happening with the current state of the military or should we just start over?

Allons,

P.Day

amen. Our G.O. leadership doesn’t know how to solve the problems with the current systems we have. and rather than use resources to address these problems, fix what’s broke, improve on what works, they would rather “put their eggs in one basket” with their big $$ acquisition programs. In the process they create a whole new host of problems, that again they are not able to solve. the culture is corrupt. it cannot change unless fundamental values and new institutional culture is created, such as when CASF Gen Fogelman introduced Integrity First in the 90’s.

“destroying Mexican drug trafficking organizations with airstrikes and search and destroy missions where the narco-terrorists live”

So the way forward for our country begins with bombing Mexico?

To be fair we’re doing a pretty good job of wrecking their country with everything but military grade ordnance.But actual airstrikes into Mexico? Damns.

Which is it.…..Do we give credit only to the guys who took out OBL or give blame to the PRESIDENT for our current state? It would appear we only want to associate the negative with our President. Also, being a Navy Veteran(active 18 years and counting), I would never insult the office of the presidency with referring to it as “resident” You sir just proved what the tea party. What we all need to do is stop with the political party BS and focus on the country as a whole. Your last outburst of 2012.… is BOTH asinine and insulting!!! (to quote you) Each party, including your beloved tea, is only focused on proving their own agenda for the most part. We all better wake up and stop spreading this crap.

BTW irt to the original article — this has been the issue for years. It is funny how top brass only wants to report it now that we are facing budget cuts across the board.

Dfens– While there is always plenty of blame to go around, I wondered where in your analysis was the recognition of the ever present “requirements creep”, as a factor of cost?. The customer (in this case, the Navy) is seldom a responsible customer ready to adequately address requirements creep and what I call unfunded desirements. I’ve been on both sides of the fence (CWO4 Ret — former FCCS) and have worked for Raytheon, E-Systems and Lockheed over 20+ years. I can state with confidence the customer leverages their political ability to play poker with requirements creep at the expense of the tax payer’s dollar. Seldom is this recognized (it’s not smart to criticize your customer). Specific to the Navy, there are too few professional Program and Project Managers. While not perfect either, the Navy should consider how the Air Force handles their project management roles.

Do your maintenance and then cut out… if you have to stay late to finish your maintenance then so be it… I wish that was the case. Now it has become, you have to stay until 1600 no matter what you do. Do your maintenance and get it done by 1000… ok, now go find something productive to do and stay out of trouble until 1600.

The Navy used to be good like that. People realized that being deployed for 7–9 months sucked. So, when you are in port, as long as your maintenance was done, go on liberty. But, now, with mandatory hours, there is no motivation to get the maintenance done. The motivation is to keep under the radar so no one can task you with work until 1600, and find every excuse you can to get out of work. Politics and a slick tongue are more important now than morals, courage, and values. This is a problem with the entire COUNTRY and is just being reflected in the Navy.

The USA has moved away from it’s foundation on Christianity and God. Until we return to the values that built this country, we will continue to decline until we are destroyed (either from the outside or inside). It starts in the home and school system. That’s where the foundations of character are built. That is where the change has to start. Until those are changed, the rest is all useless talk and politics.

The Medal of Honor ceremony was broadcast by the PBS News Hour and the BBC. The Ranger who received the medal was a guest on Good Morning America.

I’ve been asking the same question and people look at me like I’m crazy. One of the primary reasons the DoD was established was to eliminate what was considered wasteful competition between the Army and the Navy. (USAF did not come into existence until 1947.) Can anyone show me where money was saved or is being saved by DOD? Can anyone point to a single problem that was solved by replacing two smaller agencies with a huge bureaucracy? (Consider the Dept. of Homeland Security, for example.) If Congress is really serious about saving billions, disestablish the DoD, demolish the Pentagon and tell the services to get on with it.

The more things change, the more they remain the same. I retired in 1976 (CPO, engineer) and steamed numerous ships built from 1944 to 1949. We actually went aboard ships of our same class in scrap yards and canniblized machinery parts to take back to our own ships while simultaneously super structures were being torched for removal over our heads. The nautical term “cumshaw” was still very much in use then.

The CPO mess needs to get off their asses and get to work. You dont need more money to clean, grease and in most cases properly maintain your equipment. The CPO’s used to be the technical experts — now they have just moved to the (my techs are working on it because I have no idea how that works, and anyway I have collateral duties that keep me busy) Oh and I am getting my OOD underway letter so I can advance — which will make me more of an idiot about the equipment I am charged to maintain

As someone who has seen both the Navy and the contractor side of ship repair, I would say there are a couple of problems. First, the sailors aren’t properly trained. Then, because they aren’t properly trained, they learn to rely on contractors, and are in fact discouraged from trying to fix things in case they make it worse. So maintenance goes undone, and conditions get worse, and the high tempo of the fleet means major overhauls get put off and put off.
Once a ship is in for repairs, there are certainly greedy contractors, but the government is also responsible for overruns and issues by the delays they cause in authorizing work. Look at the Chosin. How can the contractor effectively plan the job if the work doubles (and then keeps growing) AFTER the ship is in dry dock?

We just need to bring back Human led training and facilities for our troops. THAT is what helped us old school guys in the past. Computer based training? Not the answer!!! Remember, everyone doesnt understand what they read. Hands on training is best. Our sailors pass these computer based training courses because they pass the test around to one another. NOT GOOD!!!

Pearl Harbor where do we start.…IMF:integrated maintenance facility. worst idea ever. They shut down the surface sima, moved all the people to the submarine sima, then combined that with what ever is left of pearl harbor naval shipyard. Submarines get priority on all available man hours including QA personnel. The repair facilty usually takes at least 25% of the allocated manhours for a suface ship repair period before they do a lick of work. Then reduce the manning of ships with programs like “Smart Ship”. Sailors are then forced to do manditory training(Politcally Correct check box stuff), PT several times a week, do not receive QA training for ship yard jobs, use of low bid contractors that are qualified on paper but not in reality(again and again), jobs take approx. 2 years to be worked(unless it stops the ship from floating or going).

It’s not much better in Norfolk, Mayport or San Diego. The contractors they hire constantly do jobs that are not in specification and if they do fire the contractor a new one will form using the same people that worked for the previous group and be back doing the same crappy job again. I am not saying they all do a bad job, but there are enough of them that do not get proper oversight to cause the problems we are seeing.

I think it goes back to training, sailors are not trained to fix anything nowadays. If it breaks replace it, Call the Tech Rep. Reduce the mainenance and the sailors have more time to get that high dust. Have ATG’s train ships personnel to train themselves for deployment,. Man the ships with women even though there aren’t enough. Not enough CPO’s.…. make jobs like CCC, 3MC, PTC or DAPA jobs that will promote rather than skills in the job you are supposed to doing. And for gods sake stop with the flavor of the month managment techniques. If you want to manage..be a manager and take charge.

The whole Pucken Diog item is phatic.

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