China: We need at least 3 aircraft carriers

China: We need at least 3 aircraft carriers

Chinese leaders want to field at least three aircraft carriers — apparently not including their current one, the Shi Lang — to keep pace with their neighbors around Asia, according to a report Monday. That adds up to an ultimate goal of four ships, although Chinese leaders’ official view seems to be the Shi Lang is a “training and research” vessel, as opposed to a full-fledged warship. Here was the account from Agence France-Presse:

“If we consider our neighbours, India will have three aircraft carriers by 2014 and Japan will have three carriers by 2014,” General Luo Yuan, a senior researcher with the Academy of Military Sciences, was quoted as saying by Beijing News.“So I think the number (for China) should not be less than three so we can defend our rights and our maritime interests effectively.”

His comments, published Friday, came after China sought to downplay the capability of its first aircraft carrier, saying on Wednesday the vessel would be used for training and “research.” Beijing believes that the three Japanese carriers it referred to, built for helicopter operations, could eventually be converted into full aircraft carriers.


China recently confirmed it was revamping an old Soviet ship to be its first carrier, a project that has added to regional worries over the country’s fast military expansion and growing assertiveness on territorial issues.

“We are currently re-fitting the body of an old aircraft carrier, and will use it for scientific research, experiments and training,” defence ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng told a news briefing. Asked whether the carrier’s addition to China’s military arsenal would significantly raise the country’s military capability, Geng said only that to “overrate or underrate the carrier’s role are both incorrect”.

What a helpful answer. But you have to deal with a lot of official doublespeak when trying to understand the Western Pacific naval arms buildup — as the AFP story mentions, Japan doesn’t consider its Hyuga-class warships to be “aircraft carriers.” The 18,000-ton, axial-decked, aviation-optimized ships are “helicopter destroyers,” you see, or DDHs, and today do not operate squadrons of fixed-wing aircraft. India, on the other hand, does concede its aircraft carriers are aircraft carriers, but its naval projects take so long to finish that there’s just no way it will have China’s feared class of three flattops by 2014. They’re there on paper, though.

It’s very interesting that China’s professed motivations for building a carrier fleet are to keep up with the Joneses. Although Midway-type sea battles don’t seem likely or desirable from an American perspective — today’s carriers are for projecting power, not fighting other carriers; if you want to sink the other guy’s fleet, send your submarines — maybe the Chinese disagree. Their desire to have at least one carrier for each one fielded by their neighborhood rivals is an echo of the old dreadnought era, when you had to have at least enough battleships to match the other guy, on the assumption that they’d duel it out in a Jutland-style surface action. Admirals chose not to consider the disruptive effects of submarines and naval air power until actual wars forced them to.

Do the Chinese want aircraft carriers so they can fight other aircraft carriers? Could they really be that old fashioned? Why not just say, “we want at least three carriers because we feel like it,” as opposed to citing the size of other peoples’ fleets? The answer, as some analysts have argued for years, may come down to the reality that fielding carriers, for China, is as much a matter of pride as it is of strategy.

 

Photo: U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence illustration of a notional Chinese aircraft carrier

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argh, americans and the necessity to find one potential big enemy

Text excerpt: “Do the Chinese want aircraft carriers so they can fight other aircraft carriers? Could they really be that old fashioned? Why not just say, ‘we want at least three carriers because we feel like it’, as opposed to citing the size of other peoples’ fleets.”

Does the U.S. Navy drive with all its aircraft carriers only up and down the U.S. coastlines, or does it deploy them globally instead, even EVERYWHERE ELSE BUT in front of a single U.S. coast? So, whoever wondered about China’s plans for 4 aircraft carriers, did that person also consider China’s FUTURE size and strength (which may even lead to the “defense of strategic interests abroad”. Very “old-fashioned” indeed…), or only China’s size of today?

Don’t worry. In ~ 36 hours they’ll eat out of our hands.

The question will be will they buy all SU33 or go for multirole fighter like India has with the MiG-29K.

I think you’re just re-stating the question. What are their true intentions. They say because everyone else is. Do we plan and deploy with that as the reason, or is there another reason not being stated. I think that’s the point of the article.

The Mig-29K is newer and more economical than the Russian Navy’s SU-33 though lower in range/payload. The Indian navy adopted or rather had to adopt the Mig since the Admiral Gorshkov carrier could not handle the much larger SU-33 with everything from hangars to elevators requiring extensive modification.

China does not face such a restriction with the Varyag being a specialised carrier unlike the Gorshkov which was a converted STOVL-missile cruiser. They will almost certainly adopt their J-15 variant of the SU-33 with newer radars and systems, which would most likely outclass the Mig-29K.

No, I’m saying that if the U.S.A. never stated any clear reasons for having so many carrier groups (what are “national strategic interests abroad” ?? How many countries have this thing?), then why should the Chinese be transparent about the purposes of their own aircraft carriers?

You first!

Ignoring the idea that a US-Sino war would be suicidal for all, the Chinese getting into a shootout with their carriers would immediately make them seafood in a carrier vs carrier fight with us unless we’re talking countless years down the road. We’ve got decades of experience fighting other ships, employing the aircraft, and supporting our fleets. If the Chinese want to protect their sea-lanes and territory they should be building fleets of subs. Carriers are floating airbases. What do the Chinese need floating airbases for?

FFB, while we haven’t exactly written a manifesto, we have fleets of carriers to reach out and bomb any particular terrain feature on earth if we choose. We’ve gotten pretty good at it. You seem to be implying that our possession of a fleet of carriers is a bad thing and who knows maybe you’re right, but if that’s the case shouldn’t we be making sure of the Chinese reason?

Ok, one more time. There are four geographic ocean footprints: Atlantic, Western Pacific, Eastern Pacific, Mediterranean/Indian Ocean. Each footprint requires THREE aircraft carriers for a full-time rotational cycle. One deployed, one training and working up for deployment. One standing down, getting repaired/modernized, taking on new recruits. That’s why the U.S. wanted 12 carrier battle groups (now called carrier strike groups or CSGs).

Part 2: So China having THREE would support one full-time deployed carrier group, which is=t would use to patrol its South China Sea area and protect its sealanes. After all, who’s container ships would they be protecting? Theirs of course, because we don’t own any any more. Which also means, when we are protecting “American commerce” we are really protecting Chinese merchant ships! Whoa! Not only are they better at capitalism, but they got us to pay for protecting their ships!

Chinese need aircarriers to put some in the other side of Taiwan coast.
That will divide the airdefenses capabilities. Can you imagine the spitfires during the batle of England being divided to defend from the Irish coast as well?!

Besides, if you are a almirant it’s a hell of a toy to have :)

We have been pretty clear about locations we see as national interests and maintaining a permanent on station presence. To do that you need like 3 or 4 per location.

What Mr. Ewing really wants to know (but doesn’t say it. Or write it. Or think it) is whether the grim, baby-eating Communist Chinese are building all these aircraft carriers to use them against the U.S. Navy, or not.

(Of course they do, but Mr. Ewing would very much like to hear it from them)

It why all the nations mentioned by China have three “carriers”…everyone wants to defend their sealanes. For China its a very big deal 60% of their food supply is imported and comes through that sealane. I don’t feel we have to worry about China’s carriers till they make it obvious they want more.

Again… don’t let the facts slow you down.

We’ve been VERY clear about the purpose of force projection with our carrier groups since the Cold War. There are other reasons we give as well but we’ve never gave stupidly evasive asnwers about the purpose of our fleet. (Scientific research?)

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Personally, I also prefer to have heavily defended naval bases (or air-naval bases) in every single maritime country and on every island over having 100 carrier battle groups. This way I can sink all your fleets with only a tiny percentage of the ordnance you need to destroy all my bases!
I’m also much better stocked-up on land and therefore better prepared for a protracted war (air bridges with large cargo planes included) than you will EVER be on sea!

I’m sure that during the Cold War the Soviets felt the same: It’s cheaper, easier, faster and safer to build a large base anywhere and to pile up Tu-22M “Backfires” and S.A.M.s on it than to build carrier groups (whose planes, weapons and ammunitions are ALWAYS SMALLER than land-based ones, on top of that!) and to learn how to operate them proficiently.

(Continued)

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However, despite its giant size the U.S.S.R. only had a single warm water port with free access to an ocean (Vladivostok), only a handful of unevenly dispersed maritime nations offered ports of call to the Soviets and even less nations allowed them to have permanent military bases on their soil.
In the end, this forced the Soviet Navy to experiment with aircraft carriers themselves, not to depend on land for their operations.

Problem is: The Chinese are even much less charismatic in the Third World than the Soviets ever were (which is only their own fault. They have no internationalistic vision, they’re completely materialistic and selfish), so they have no choice but to compensate that lack of friendly ports abroad with lots of carrier battle groups.

When you see a big flattop and its battle group sitting off your coast, with armed fighters launching and recovering, its a very clear message that even the most egotistical megalomaniac must understand. Its called “gunboat diplomacy” for the 20th and 21st century. (BB’s used to work, but we dont have any anymore! :-( )

In spite of the fact that a submarine could, in principle, carry at least as much distructive force as a CBG, how do you inspire the imagination of some tin-horn dictator with a submarine? Ok. . I will concede that there is a way, .. . but find one that does not require actually flying a Tomahawk through his bedroom window? On second thought, you can launch Tomahawks from carrier-borne fighters too! LOL!

You mean you would REALLY prefer to have all of those nice concrete runways with permanent GPS coordinates and consistent overhead recon opportunities? Sounds like a recipe for smoking holes to me! :-)

Let me see, add one B-52 to the mix with a belly full of ALCMs, SRAMs, and JDAMS, and a set of GPS coordinates (Note that it could just as easily be a Bear or a Backfire), and.… Say goodnight, Gracie!

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And in times of peace (and legally / technically that includes times of extreme tensions like ultimata, too) nothing and no one forbids your enemy from finding you on the high sea either, making you look like a fixed target yourself, and circling with his maritime strike aircraft around your carrier fleet like a school of sharks, finger on the trigger.

But once the glorious carrier is in the enemy’s sights, it can still save itself with “power projection”…

To the poster “Thinking_ExUSAF”

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You wrote: “When you see a big flattop and its battle group sitting off your coast, with armed fighters launching and recovering, its a very clear message that even the most egotistical megalomaniac must understand. Its called ‘gunboat diplomacy’ for the 20th and 21st century.”

That is very effective gunboat diplomacy indeed. And I’m sure you would even pay to be on that aircraft carrier, too, parked in visible range ( < 20 km = half of modern artillery’s firing range) from a “egotistical megalomaniacal dictator’s” eyes.

(Continued)

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Unfortunately it is also a form of gunboat diplomacy whose subliminality escapes you. Because the ONLY thought in the “egotistical megalomaniacal dictator’s” AND in the U.S. politicians’ minds is what happens to the “egotistical megalomaniacal dictator’s” country, if he accepts that irresistible, vulnerable bait. The trick usually works… even if it doesn’t quite work the way you think it does.

Believe me, politicians do think in such terms. But don’t worry: Whatever happens, your rôle on that exposed aircraft carrier will always be of historical importance.

Ask some surviving “U.S.S. Liberty” crew members.

OK, you cant have it both ways. Either surface ships are prohibitively vulnerable or they are totally immune to the threat. It would appear that either answer is acceptable so long as it is yours. Oh well, .… . . And by the way, you do not have to lay eyeballs (i.e. < 20KM) on an aircraft carrier battle group to be very aware that it is present! :-) But that is somewhat a trivial point with ASCMs having ranges of hundreds or thousands of miles. Enjoy, but .… . . adios, el pequeno! :-)

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but does anyone see the huge potetial to retire a big chunk of our debt by selling 3 or 4 Brand Spanking new Aircraft Carriers to China and maybe a few to India while we’re at it? Hell if I worked at a British shipyard I’d be yelling to sell them 8 and by following the American example of over pricing every single part by 300%, then we could afford our 2 new carriers.
I remiss, If we sell them 3,4 or 5 carriers and tell them we will turn a blind I when they take back Taiwann in exchange for 5 trillion in treasury bonds being retired it would be worth it. Hell lets sell them to everybody including Iran, we need the jobs. Don’t think the Dreamer and chief has not had this day dream while missing putts at Andrews AFB.

Actually they could really help their position and economy if they started eating each other. China just wants to give us what we here in the USA always need a big, bad Boogey Man. That way, anchored by WAY out of wack Defense spending, we can spend ourselves into the 3rd world. They are destroying us without firing a shot. Taxpayer is 100% correct, they have us jumping thru hoops for them by playing our fears and arrogance at the same time.

Your economic approach worked pretty good in the early 1900’s. Any shipyard with the capablity went into the dreadnaught business, selling perfectly good battleships to places like Chile, Argentina and other countries that could not keep their citizens fed. LOTS of money changed hands for the status symbol of owning just one of those big bruisers. (Of course if you didnt have enough to line up against the US, Britain, Germany, France, or Japan, the wartime value, aside from the symbolic “me too!”, was limited to little local squabbles!)

Weren’t the worldwide economies somewhat in shambles at those times as well, i.e. perhaps in a recession or maybe some apolitical types would call it in “depression”? :-)

Well, I know the writer of this story is a little off. I was in the navy stationed on the Nimitz CVN-68 and we had exercises again allied Carriers. When I was there we battled one of the French Carriers in the Med. (Clemensau) Sorry if I spelled it wrong. It was a Foch class Carrier. We also battled the Missouri BB-63 Surface Group in 1988.
The doctrines we learned in WW2 at the height of having the Essex Class Carriers has not changed. Back then we bombed land targets as well as sank enemy ships. The same today and the future as well.

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