DoD warns of second-guessing in helo crash

DoD warns of second-guessing in helo crash

A top Defense Department spokesman cautioned Tuesday against second-guesses and rushes to judgment as the shock wears off after this weekend’s CH-47 Chinook crash in Afghanistan. Until the various investigations gather all the relevant facts, no one can say whether commanders acted properly or whether the crash could’ve been prevented, said Marine Col. Dave Lapan.

Although Lapan and other DoD officials have not confirmed this, the Chinook helicopter itself apparently was a regular Army aircraft, not a dedicated special operations bird. Could that mean it may not have been as well equipped for combat as an MH-47E or G model? Why weren’t any of those helos involved? Pentagon officials confirm the Army Rangers who called for help from the SEALs suffered no casualties, and were able to break away from their firefight with the Taliban to guard the crash site. So how serious could their situation have been? Was this whole thing a Taliban trap, as Afghan officials have claimed?

“I’m not about to second-guess decisions of commanders on the battlefield,” Lapan said. “None of us in this room were there,” he told reporters. Only after the various investigations are complete — the Army’s into the crash of the helicopter and ISAF’s and SOCOM’s into the overall incident — will all the facts be in, he said.


Some things are already clear: DoD officials say they’re “reviewing” whether to keep using Chinooks around Taliban firefights, but they don’t have much of a choice: The powerful, twin-engined helicopters are the among only ways for troops to reach the high altitudes where they need to operate, and there’ll be no replacing them anytime soon — we all know how good the Army is at buying new helicopters. Besides, for the most part, they and the rest of the rotary wing fleet have been able to operate in Afghanistan safely.

That fact could be one thing contributing to a tendency for blame-finding or second-guessing: American troops make thousands upon thousands of flights a year in the war zone without a scratch, even when they’re going in and out of combat. And in battle, U.S. helicopters are supposed to be the ones dealing out the damage, not taking it. But if you fly big helicopters low enough, slow enough, for long enough, the chances get better and better that one of them will run into trouble.

Another contributing factor is special operators’ reputations as the ultimate stone-cold warriors. How could the guys who killed Osama bin Laden put themselves into a situation that could go so bad? Or there’s a flip side to that coin: Are these guys hot-headed adrenaline junkies who have no oversight or accountability, and did they charge headlong into danger without thinking things through? Did they buy their own hype and forget the potential consequences?

It could be weeks, months — or never — before the public gets answers to any of these questions.

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“But if you fly big helicopters low enough, slow enough, for long enough, the chances get better and better that one of them will run into trouble.”

Unfortunately, you are correct. Recall the ’53 that went down in Iraq with similar loss of life. This is a very dangerous, high risk business. Let DOD finish their investigation.

Leave the finger pointing, second guessing, screaming, shouting, and Monday morning quarterbacking to Congress and the White House. After all, that’s what they’re good at.

Amen!

we SHOULD second guess an organization (DoD) that spends billions upon billions in failed development programs like SBIRS, NPOESS, EFV, FCS, F-22, and F-35, etc.. and budgets a crummy $4B for entire ATIRCM (helicopter defense) program. ps you losers out there that’s for the entire program which includes procurement and delivering of fielded operational systems, not decades in development h*l for piss poor tacair modernization (who must be better at keeping congressional districts happy)…

What does any of what your whining about have to do with commanders in the field making decisions that puts people in high risk situations like this?

ever heard of resource allocation??

Second guess them on the procurement fiascos, perhaps even more seriously when those disasters turn into battlefield fatalities, but in this case, you might was well “second guess” them on the weather, the Sox loosing a ballgame or whatever else you care to complain about. This was a tactical situation and our guys got killed. Sadly that is what sometimes happens in the very best of situations. Dont worry, given the media frenzy, if anyone can be faulted in any way, they will be hung out to dry. The fact is simple though, sometimes the bad guys win.

Should I bother to point out that ATIRCM (or flares, or chaff, or a jammer, or.…)would only work with an IR or RADAR GUIDED MISSILE not an RPG. Matter of fact, that, along with availability, are probably the reasons that the very simplistic RPG is used so often against our helos. Take the rant elsewhere.

apparently you missed out on root cause analysis, reinforcing feedback loops, and vicious circles… Weather definitely can be a factor, Sox losing a ballgame has nothing to do with aqs & ops. Poor command & control, logistics, maintenance, leadership, readiness, and ability to mass sufficient quantities of forces due to inadequately funded O&M acounts (since the establishment’s priority is acquisition programs at any cost) have everything to do with what is wrong with DoD, translating into loss on the battlefield. Cripes how much human intel, weapons buy back programs, and hearts & minds could have been paid for with the $$‘s going into doomed to fail development programs???

neither engineer or economist.

got plenty of creds to say otherwise.. but THANKS for your input.. pure genius.…

More lessons from Vietnam forgotten !
Rest now .

No, lets start honest criticism of what happened. Why were 31 Seals on one helicopter? Could it be the US military has an insufficient number of helicopters? We are told normally there would be around 10 Seals per helicopter, with all their gear. I am sure the Navy will conduct a thorough review of what went wrong as they have to be very unhappy with what happened. DOD telling us not to second guess them makes me think the Obama administration might be, in some way, at fault here. Insufficient resources? Inadequate equipment? Obsolete helicopters?

Are you kidding me? What does the administration have to do with our troops being set up for an ambush half way around the world?

Dude, they were AMBUSHED! It had nothing to do with their gear, or anything else your going on about.

The fact that the SEALS were called in for help and had to scramble to get a helo lift to the hot zone makes me think this whole op was poorly planned from the start. Why was there no stand by reaction force in place with transport, gear and air support/arty at the ready for this RANGER unit in the field? this was always std procedure in the past? are the assets no longer avail(because they have been turned over to the afghans (i.e. given))? or did complacency set in because nothing had happen in that zone for some time so they skipped it? I dont know — will have to wait and see what kind of answer they give for breaking protocal.

study fog and friction of war, Sun Tzu, Musashi, military doctrine, close air support, systems engineering, logistics, CMIC, politics, decision analysis, leadership, risk management, organizational dysfunction, command and control, sociology, cultural clashes between specops & conventional communities, human intelligence, the counter-insurgency manual, everything about John Boyd, and get back to me when you can put two and two together. There are many death spiral practices going on in many communities that are bringing DOD and our NATION down. wake up.

do you think these commanders had adequate ISR, intel, CAS, and logistics support that would have made a difference in their operation??? What about Blackhawk Down? Do you think if those guys had more ISR, intel, CAS, and logistics that they could have had a better chance of not getting shot down??? why does our leadership not learn from our past mistakes?????

Prayers out to the troops and their families, so sorry for your loss. my two cents … smells like a set-up to me, … likely some afghan traitor tipping off the enemy about who the crew was. Where were the blackhawks? Wouldn’t you take your best in on “corvettes” vs. a “schoolbus?”

“Are these guys hot-headed adrenaline junkies who have no oversight or accountability, and did they charge headlong into danger without thinking things through? Did they buy their own hype and forget the potential consequences?“
Do they realize they are talking about SEALs? I could see this comment made towards maybe a group of grunts, but not SEALs. High intelligence and mental stability are requirements for their training. I highly doubt they went in and didn’t have any plan at all.

“Creds” can mean two things. You may possess lots of “wall paper” and you may personally consider that “creds”. On the other hand you may garner “creds” from others for the way you handle yourself and express your opinions. And there is the additional respect you may harvest for having carefully considered, well supported and perhaps less histrionic opinions.

Be very sure that your “creds” are not just in your own mind! :-)

The ambush was without a doubt, a classic setup. However, I dont see how they could have had any idea who would have responded to the call for help, since that probably wasnt known by anyone until the initial ambush on the Rangers unfolded. The bad guys were planning on ambushing whatever helo or relief column appeared, nothing more.… nothing less! Why make it any more difficult than it is.

got plenty of whatever, no need to have to prove anything to anybody that wants to throw in a cheap 2 cent shot. fighting against stupidity here (not just here, here), don’t have time or patience to ‘carefully consider, well support, and be less histrionic’ haha don’t even know what that means. the “dark side” has billions for marketing, thousands of congressional district jobs, and many stars & political careers and uses every deplorable tactic in the book. i do what i can…
ps changing my handle…

Bravery is normally defined by knowing the risks and dangers and going ahead to perform your duty. SEALs are known for bravery, not stupidly charging into a mass suicide. Just be very glad that, to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill, (who always did have a nice turn with words!) you can sleep soundly knowing that hard men, just like these brave souls who gave their all, are protecting you and yours.

There is a chronic shortage of resources available to deployed forces. Meanwhile, the brass & Congress will fight to the last for failed acquisition programs like FCS, EFV, and F-35. After hiding dirty laundry for years as standard practice, It takes a tragedy for our leadership to experience their “come to Jesus” moment. you have to appreciate how radically corrupt and incompetent DoD & the federal government is. don’t believe me? check out the Gansler report on Army deployed contracting — http://​www​.army​.mil/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​5​9​0​6​/​g​a​n​s​l​e​r​-​c​o​m​m​i​ssi… — and now think about how many government endeavors do not get such independent scrutiny.

And that’s we are all in debt to those and all the others who gave all they had.

“nothing less!”

It’s a complete and abject ABSOLUTE shame — that’s why! Afreakn school bus.

“The NATO command in Kabul identified the downed helicopter as a Boeing CH-47 Chinook, not the modified version, the MH-47.

The MH-47 Chinook is configured for nighttime missions by the 160th … ‘This was a regular Army crew and bird, so the crew would have less experience, training and countermeasures compared to a 160th,’” http://​www​.washingtontimes​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​2​0​1​1​/​a​u​g​/​9​/co…

In combat you are typically short everything except enemy.

Hmmmm, I have and more. From a BS from West Point to Masters in Leadership Development and Counsleing and a grad of the Combined Arms General Staff School (and most of the little stops on the way like a CIB etc.). You are comparatively looking at the butterfly flap in Brazil that caused the CAT 5 hurricane that hit New Orleans when you should be looking at the decision making process in New Orleans that kept the school busses in the parking lot. How about coming down from the stratosphere and discussing the decision making that went into putting some SEAL on a mission to reinforce the Rangers?. Otherwise we’ll call you when we want to create the starship Enterprise’s transporter room.

I really don’t know what level of ISR, intel, CAS or logistics they have out there. I wasn’t there and I probably never will be. This is war, people are making life and death choices on the fly out there and the last thing they need to hear is some “Captian Hindsight” 12,000 miles away sitting at home telling them what they should have done and how they should have done it.

doubt if i’m going to get anywhere if you’re going to be this snarky. the fed gov & DoD are cluster f’s from the top and it all trickles down can we agree on that? if you don’t think that systematic failed leadership and rotten culture at the top translates into inadequate resources at the operational level, well then we aren’t going to make much progress will we. cuz right now everyone plays a happy tune until sh*t (like space shuttle(s)) blows up, M-16s jam, troops don’t get armor, psychs with TS’s shootup a hospital, jets shoot down helicopters not squaking IFF, wounded soldiers live in rotted filth at Walter Reed, initial cost estimates for Iraq War $50B actual trillions + and THEN we need all the outside investigations, front page stories, & other help in the world for real improvements to be made. have a good day, Major.

Yeah and when the shiz hits the fan I’d like to see you take all your theories and studies and apply them in a practical manner with rounds coming up range with seconds to spare. Stick to counting beans.

got one buddy commanded prt. his secfor stripped soon as he gets in country. he got back busted up pretty bad. got another confirm there is shortage of everything. don’t trust me, well then look up SecDef statements re: ISR. Pentagon is trying to do too many things and messing up on multiple fronts. The priority is the dream world acquisition portfolio and defense contractor /congressional district jobs, and the prima donna is F-35. the eye is off the ball on this taxpayer’s priorities.

stick those beans up your 6. i’m in it up to my eyeballs where i’m at and do what i can.

hey Major this transmission just came in from the Enterprise. they want you to re-read everything above because it apparently did not take. I don’t know how much systems engineering you could have understood with a Masters in Leadership Development and Counseling, but if you keep trying you might get it someday. since you are so learned i would love to know what was your position on Army’s investment in FCS? maybe resources would have been better expended in providing more attack helicopters in theater?

CLOSE AIR SUPPORT COULD HAVE DONE THE JOB WITHOUT THE SEALS SUPPORT> ANOTHER MACHO DECISION BY THE ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!

The Administration, through the Secretary of Defense, is responsible for making sure are troops are correctly armed and deployed. There are many unanswered questions regarding this operation. Remember Les Aspin was the first Secretary of Defense who had to resign, after he turned down the Army request for tanks, which they then had to borrow from other countries, after Blackhawk Down. Commander in Chief is more than just a title.

quit second guessing .we wer,nt there.snap dececisions were made.the enemy got lucky,but they have already paid the price and got blasted​.so now lets get our butts out of there.we don,t belong their.

Actually, my last assignment was a project officer for the FCS program when I served at the Infantry school’s battle lab on . FCS relied on untested/proven technology. Its proponents convinced the Army to spend way too much money on immature technologies that emphasized people over machines. It was a bean counters dream because it said we could replace troops with information technology to make us more effective. Just like you the proponents were in the stratosphere and could never explain how we’d actually get the bad guy hiding in a hut/cave/jungle without using the good guy with a pointy stick. It was a “systems engineers” heaven but wrecked on the shoals of reality. I could discuss ad nauseum what thoe at the top think but it isn’t going to make a hill of beans difference where the rubber meets the road. You can focus on DC. The rest of us will focus on the field. Let’s see who finds an answer first?

The Russians tried that. Didn’t work out too well for them. Besides the indiscriminate nature of aerial delivered ordnance I gues you know for a fact there were fixed wing assets circling overhead just waiting to drop bombs? I love air power but sometimes its not there when you need it and can’t do things like capture prisoners for intel. Maybe not so macho Tonto? Not promising what it can’t deliver either…

whether i’m in the stratosphere, DC, or in the field, putting dollars, people, systems, organizations, and 1’s and 0’s at work to defend the nation, one thing I do is get my facts straight. fyi FCS was Boeing’s, Army G.O. and careerists dreams, it was a nightmare for those of us in the know. it was the bean counters and system engineers who called them out on the insanity and nipped it in the bud. if they had listened to us sooner they’d be a decade and billions of dolalrs ahead in Army modernization and recapitalization.

Ruskies didn’t have smart-bombs, predators, sophisticated sats — you’re talking apples and prune pits.

According to all the commercials, we should have had those silver bullet, V-22s available. It certainly is looking like a procurement issue.

Sir, agree with almost all (and also rubbed sholders with FCS!), but… “Systems Engineers” Heaven? Not by my experience.

It was a PowerPoint purgatory of bad systems engineering, (starting with the lack of any real tactical input and objectives). It was technologists trying to find relevance and a techno-geek project trying to make IT the ultimate “doomsday” weapon. They wanted to turn electrons into bullets (Making sure that everyone knows the color of the enemy’s bloomers, in real time, and with FMV, is much more palatable than simply killing him I guess!).

Good, honest systems engineering (or program management) would have held up the red BS flag very early in the program and waved it to tatters! Office politics, tender “catch and release” sensibilities, and BAD systems engineering kept it going as long as it survived.

Im thinking that your moniker may be a freudian slip. The sheepdog in the cartoon was always lifting the hair from his eyes trying to see the predaceous wolf. Try it! :-)

I’m not comparing different fruit but you’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Were there fixed wing above the Rangers? Were there Predators? Were they armed with smart bombs? The Rangers are extremely well resourced with combat multipliers unlike the conventional guys. There’s a reason the Rangers wanted troops on the ground to stop the squirters. Precision munitions need a precise coordinate. Moving targets don’t have precise coordinates.

“one thing I do is get my facts straight.” Still waiting to hear some. Instead you use generalities and heresay. Be specific. No doubt the Army would have been better served by not pursuing FCS but which G.O.‘s were pushing it? The Generals I advised (Eaton, Freakley) voiced numerous reservations about FCS and how the individual soldier and Infantry in general where fused into it. Which careerists were you refering to? Are you saying buearacrats saved the Army from those in uniform? LOL, that would be a first but more importantly how does this impact the operational decision to use a Chinook in Afghanistan? Ditch the space suit and come back to Earth. The Military Industrial Complex is as much to blame for this decision as much as America’s focus on American Idol.

how did FCS get canceled? was it because Gen Schoomaker and co. said looks like we hosed this up? nope. FCS perpetuated the flawed acquisition strategy that pursues exotic yet operationally unsuitable technology, setting off vicious circles of failed programs, poor modernization, low readiness, unaccomplished missions (how long we been in Afghanistan?), and yes, poor results on the battlefield. cheers.

Doing the analytic studies/simulations & experiments to provide “proof” that FCS was worthwhile, I agree with your PowerPoint and IT insanity.

Systems engineering is fine. Without a very fundamental understanding of what ground combat is and isn’t the brightest sytsems engineer isn’t as worthwhile as the input of a smart seasoned NCO.

I place MUCH of FCS’s ability to survive at Rumsfeld’s feet. He was enamored with what technology and special ops could do and wanted to cut troops numbers. We had a problem when people at DC were considering air power as a replacement for artillery, making the case for a five man squad or saying we were going to have 90% certainty of where the enemy was. Rumsfeld bought it and soulless minions worked to prove him right.

We are leaving the subject far behind.

A few warthogs could of cleared the LZ. And, extraordinary assets, like SEALS, should have that luxury. Otherwise, it looks like a conspiracy to send a message to Team 6 — to keep their mouths shut about a so-called “Bin Laden” death.

Well, the second guessing is going to happen regardless, even by those that KNOW that this kind of thing will happen anyway. You can’t second guess after the fact, at that point all you can do is try not to make that same mistake again. Besides who knew what the enemy was thinking, mabe it was a set up, or mabe they just took advantage of a perfect opportunity. It can happen if you keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome each time, that is called insanity.

As a systems engineer by trade and training, may I add that knowing what one does NOT know (in this case, ground combat realities), is at least as important as what one might actually know! ;-) I’ll take that sharp NCO and maybe even a reasonably intelligent, and combat seasoned Major on my systems engineering team any day! LOL!

Remember the discussio of “creds”? Credibility is a wonderful thing, but incredibly easy to loose when the mouth is engaged before the brain is in gear; and very hard to regain, EVEN if you change your pseudonym.

Just sayin.…

it’s lose, not loose. thanks.

Concur

Long ago a grizzled Vietnam vet who happened to be my first platoon sergeant said, “L T no one knows everything, listen to enough guys that know what they are talking about and you’ll come close”. Sage advice that has served me very well.

Don’t like to second guess either. However, I share the same concern, why were there so many in a CH 47 which is highly vulnerable. I also agree that the close air support would have done the job, In the book “Soul Survivor”, we lost an entire rescue team, copter and crew in what seemed to be a job for close air support or attack copters to kill the vermin before attempting rescue. Heavy Heart

No doubt, I am so PO’d @ The International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) — NATO’s
“puppy” — that can’t put Apaches, Comanches, warthogs, ordinance, NOTHING on site ‘cept a suicided/assisinated squad of elite. Were all the blackhawks (like in the “Laiden” raid ) flying Rasmussen and brass off to the ball or what!?

“we SHOULD second guess an(y) organization” or we are fools. This tradgedy — not just for THE SEAL TEAM SIX, but for all those aboard — is obscene. NATO (money masters) have stretched US that thin, or so it appears. At some point, you have to wonder, is ISAF looking out for “whom?” My second guess leads me to believe that it ain’t US. Sabe’s?

Now we know it was apparently NOT a “a regular Army aircraft” — try CG. First casualty of war — TRUTH~! RIP brothers. An independent ivestigation would have (at least) reassured me. I realize bait and ambush are old war tactics. I also realize that a perpetual war to serve the oligarchs of Europe and fill the coffers of the international banksters is a planned financial implosion of the only lighthouse of freedom EVER on this earth — the United States! RIP US.

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