Contemplating the death spiral

Contemplating the death spiral

All that stuff from Wednesday about the Air Force’s total commitment to the F-35A? That still stands. But a set of new updates indicates the foundations beneath the airmen and their jets may be already starting to crumble.

Item one: Air Force Secretary Michael Donley, on a visit to Australia’s capital, Canberra, acknowledged to reporters that DoD may have to cut or delay its planned buy of F-35s, even as the Air Force keeps its full and complete fidelity to the jet. He said he didn’t know what that might mean for the costs and schedules of the 100 copies that Australia wants to buy — and, by extension, the other members of Club F-35 — although one likely answer is they would be later and more expensive.

Item two: AvWeek’s Bill Sweetman has followed up on his earlier report about the tasker from Navy Undersecretary Bob Work ordering officials to do the numbers on what would happen if the F-35B and C were curtailed or cancelled. Here’s how Sweetman put it: “‘This relook must consider every plan and program,’ Work wrote. ‘Even cuts to long-planned buys of JSF must be on the table.’ The team was also tasked to define ‘the key performance differences between the Block II F/A-18E/F with all planned upgrades, F-35B and F-35C.’” Planning for something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, but it is politically telling: Secretary Panetta and other top leaders have said, for example, they aren’t making a backup plan in case the Doomsday Device budget sequestration takes effect, probably in part because if they planned for it, it might send the message that it was an acceptable outcome.


So if you wanted to read it this way, you could take the Navy’s decision to plan for cuts or delays as a message that it considers that a valid option — though service officials would certainly insist they’re just doing their due diligence here. It’s not surprising from the service that was always the most skeptical about a Joint Strike Fighter, and which has the most fallback options in case one does not materialize as planned. The Navy could happily keep buying and flying Super Hornets for another decade or beyond, and keep trying to get the stealthy unmanned attack jet that Work and others believe is the key to the long-term relevance of the aircraft carrier. The Air Force and the Marines, however, have no such luxuries.

All this again raises the prospect for an F-35 death spiral that could begin as soon as this year: Faced with the Big Crunch and some kind of headline-grabbing problems — suppose there’s another astronomic cost increase, or the F-35B’s planned shipboard tests don’t go well — the Building begins slicing jets off the top of its program. The tremors start immediately: Simple mathematics mean the cost per jet, already high, must climb further. The F-35’s many allies in Congress prevail on the Pentagon to keep it going, but the writing is on the wall: With years still left in development and no further appetite for Washington’s arms-sales roller coaster, international partners begin dropping out to cut their losses. (The Aussies, to return to them, already are thinking of rejoining the Super Hornet bandwagon.) The F-35’s cost per unit increases again. The Navy ditches the C, which eliminates the Royal Navy’s membership in the club — an event that might even be welcomed in Austerity London.

Now the Air Force and Marines need to cut their planned buys again, but they still cannot countenance losing their As and Bs — they literally have no choice but to buy ever fewer of them, no matter the price. The services will have flown their legacy aircraft into tatters and accept smaller fleets just to be able to keep operating.

History holds some grim lessons here, as the Military Times’ Bill McMichael wrote in 2009: He quoted defense analyst Barry Watts of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, who observed that the U.S. had four ‘stealth’ aircraft programs before the F-35: The F-117; the A-12; the B-2 and the F-22. Taken together, these represented a requirement for 2,378 aircraft. How many actually entered service? 267.

Can the Pentagon avoid repeating its mistakes yet again? What do you think?

Join the Conversation

Yes and what about those mistake jets:

Lockheed F-35 Wing Part Has ‘Design Flaw,’ Tester Says

Two of three models of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 jet have a “design flaw” that reduces the expected life of a wing structure to 1,200 hours, which is “significantly less than” the expected 8,000 hours, according to the U.S. Defense Department’s testing office…
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011–09-01/lockh…

So kill the A and B models?

who pay? not me :)

Why is it that today’s military leaders are so hell bent on doing the “stupid” thing?

Just like my Navy is hell bent on doing the beyond stupid LCS program, the air force brass is hell bent on bleeding the country dry with the F-35.

–Stop the program now
–Fire everyone that was pushing for it,
–and demand a refund and public apology from LM for fleecing this country and putting themselves above it

We need to bring back common sense and sanity to the DOD

Really curious at what all of this would mean if it got canceled..

Marines seem to be all in with few options especially with some of the reports about service hours on their current gear. If the F-35 dies I wonder if it is time to ask if we really need the Marines to fly jets.

Air Force is all in as well but has some options. The real issue with me seems to be their inability to realize and adapt to the fact that the world has changed. If the F35 dies its Officer/Pilot centric mindset could really become a liability. If you asked them tomorrow if they could only pick two (F22, F35 or a B2 replacement) which two do you think they would pick?

The Navy seems to me to be focused on ships first and plans second. I honestly (not everyone mind you) think they would be fine with drone based aviation as long as they got to keep their carriers or got new ones.

Army, so if the big winner the Army? Do they expand their drone and rotary force even more? Do they argue that since they are the only ones that seems to get the world has changed they should bear more of the burden and get more of the cash?

Well JT if I had to put money down I’d bet that the A and B models get canceled and the C goes on, but in a way with fewer bells and whistles, s simpler version if you will

The Marines really have no choose, the Harriers are worn out and they need replacing

The Navy is doing just fine with the Super Hornet and the X-47B seems to be coming along nicely

The Airforce made their bed and now they have to “lie” on it.

Looks like we will get a much much smaller air force instead.

“If the F-35 dies I wonder if it is time to ask if we really need the Marines to fly jets.”

Yeah, we could give Marine CAS to the USAF. It’s all joint operations these days anyway, why do they need integral air support? I mean, it worked out so well for the Army, why not continue a properAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry I couldn’t keep a straight face for long enough.

You forgot one:
–Alienate an entire industry that will negotiate harsher penalties on the Government for cancellation.

The mistake was making changes to the program that added costs without seeking out enough of the additional funding outside the program. Another mistake was funding a parallel luxury item, second engine.

No body wins in this type of zero-sum. F35s are what the air force intends to provide the Army with close air support, and while I don’t think the F35s all that well suited, something is better than nothing.

The A and B make up the bulk of the purchase if they go, the C model has to carry the entire program cost and will cause the per plane price to sky rocket 20 times the current cost. This is the down side to mass production, large scale purchasing. It tend to become all or nothing. Hence why its called a “death spiral.” They will trim total purchased planes and you’ll see the price climb, at the higher price that volume is unaffordable and they’re forced to cut more, which cascades to them with fewer planes for more money.

That said, the F35C is probably the lowest priority for the US but the greatest importance for our allies.

Jeff, in BigRick’s “C Only” scenario, the USAF, USN and USMC would all buy Cs instead of the current mix of As, Bs, and Cs. Price per plane should actually come down instead of going the route of the B-2 unit price. In that respect, it would resemble the 5,000 strong F-4 program.

it really sad that the people overseeing this program are so incompetent, the American people got
fleeced in a big way and we’ll probably never see “production” F-35 in service

only in government does incompetence get rewarded

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011–09-01/lockh…

And now the A & B models need a wing spar redesign and of course the mistake jets will need a retrofit which may prove problematic.

This program was the TFX all over again. When will we learn from history.

Sorry, but that is a remarkably poor (as in completely wrong) analogy. The F-35 program is more like the F-4 than F-111.

Cancel the program and split the money this way:

USAF: More F-22 Raptors and F-15 Silent Eagles
USN: Buy the International Roadmap F/A-18
USMC: Buy new and enhanced A-10 Super Hogs
USA Aviation: EH-101 to replace the UH-60

Oh yeah? How so, Master Sergeant? F-4 wasn’t designed as an all-service aircraft. F-4 didn’t take 15 plus years to develop.

I said something in another post yesterday about how the F-111A _not only_ went from RFP to operational in less than a decade, but we were already flying follow on variants within ten years, ’61 to ’71. And that program was a famous mess. The B-1 was another perfect example of a stretched-out, cost-busting mess. It was canceled, redesigned, and we still got an operational aircraft in LESS TIME than it’s taking to get the F-35. How come?

BigRick — I’m very happy to see the (JSF) turkey program get cancelled. Hopefully I’ll like to hear about more bad news about this failed program.

I have expected this “death spiral” for the F35 program for some time and expect the whole effort to implode. The procurement bureaucrats really only care about their jobs, and pay lip service to the real needs of the military to keep their jobs and make their empires bigger. The politicians only care that their district(s) get a the biggest possible share of the contracts for any given system.

The only successful military procurement programs seem to be the small ones that lurk in the shadows of the big monsters and escape most of the attention. Basically all work is now contracted out, which really only benefits politicians, not the military or the taxpayer.

Fundamentally the military procurement morass has become just another waste of our taxpayers money. While the words of lowest cost in reasonable time are parried about, in reality that is not the objective. Unfortunately no sense of urgency exists in military procurement, other than the real end users, but they are the tail of the dog, and are not in the real drivers seat.

I like your dry sense of humor, but the USAF, NAVAIR and even Marine Air do not want to perform any CAS. They ALL want to fly around in shiny, gee whiz, hi-tech aircraft and not get their hands dirty. Reguardless of the constant PR harping Marine Pilots are no better at CAS than Flyboys(actually the best Americans) or Swabbies.
Marine Air will be the 1st Major casulty of the the death cuts coming as Obama comes to grips that he is a one term President. SecDef Leon Panetta has spent most of his life trying to destoy two things, the CIA and the Military. He has left the CIA castrated, and is just getting started at DOD. With the budget cuts facing the USN there will not be a Gator Navy for a F-35B to land on anyway.

They cut the F-22 saying that we could get all of these F-35s, now they are going to cut the F-35 and say we can get more of what exactly? A new fighter that only exists on paper? UCAVs that can’t carry radar-guided missiles, need secure communications to operate effectively, and are limited to subsonic speeds? Super Hornets that have always been something of an interim aircraft and will be quite outdated within a decade? How typical it would be of the DoD to cut the F-35 after the hard work gets done, which is exactly what we are looking at happening.

You shouldn’t. Because we have no alternatives on the table that offer nearly the same level of capabilities to all of the services. At least the USAF could theoretically restart F-22 production but not in the numbers they need. The USN and USMC get screwed however.

If we actually carry through the what happens if the F35 is cancelled line of thought the options are pretty straight forward. Minus the shrill howls of we are doomed by its fans.

We could re-start the F22, although since they really aren’t ready for any sort of strike mission option yet that’s not a great option. Probably the easiest and most effective would be a mix of the latest block F-16s that were offered to India recently. It’s got almost double the combat radius of an F35 which is a step forward. Then see what Boeing’s Block III SH proposal actually is. I’ve yet to see any hard specs. That would leave a lot of doomsayers howling over the US’s demise to the Chinese hordes, but somehow I think we’d muddle through.

The next step would be to start work on gen 6 options. To make them happen more quickly and smoothly I would drop the ‘modular’ and ‘multi-role’ non sense and build a gen 6 air superiority platform and a gen 6 strike plane. Think F22 on steroids and reincarnate the idea of the Avenger II, not necessarily the plane itself.

The F-35 actually has to work. Almost 10 years into SDD and it hasn’t dropped one weapon. It is no where close to IOC. Production is not stable. There is not enough production learning curve to build the volume they want. The hundreds we should have had by now are just a pipe dream.

Over-optimism and faith-based program management. Expensive lesson in failure.

The F-4 may have started out as a Navy aircraft but it served effectively in all three services in one and two-seat versions unlike the much larger F-111. Comparing the F-4 to the F-35 is like comparing a stock car to a F-1 racer.The complexity in software, sensors, stealth, avionics, radar, internal stores, and STOVL explains the difference in development time and cost.

An F-4 today would cost around $15 million…but contrast the quality and features of a 1961 car to one purchased today. There is no comparison. The F-4 was little more than big engines and wings. Today’s complex fighter features guarantee that few nations can affordably compete in quality numbers beyond 100, unlike in years past when fighters were more equal and numerous. Even the Pak FA and J-20 will cost around $100 million, and still won’t match F-35 stealth, sensors, numbers, or single-engine reliability/affordability.

Of course we could always fight threat stealth aircraft and modern air defenses with F-16s and F/A-18s. Wonder how that would work? A tri-service stealth aircraft solution provides the greatest deterrence, doubles our carrier fleet, and preclude TBM targeting of a few in-range airfields.

I am not an engineer on the program nor am I an Aircraft engineer, just a simple engineer. Why oh why can’t LM take a few F-22 offline and retrofit them to talk to other aircrafts (like net-centric was supposed to do) and retrofit to accommodate different other weapons. I thought that LM was supposed to be smart. (they used to be). Are we saying that they cannot figure this out. What about those minds at Mitre. According to the DoD they are brilliant. I don’t agree, but lets put them up for the challenge. If not, why are we wasting our time thinking about the F-35 then?

Your final contention is based on a straw man argument that we would fight stealth aircraft and modern air defenses with F-16s and F/A-18s. To be intellectually honest you would have to take into account that there are many more variables involved in any scenario. The government should conduct an independent, unbiased Analysis of Alternatives to identify and compare the different courses of action we could take to salvage this mess.

Leaders that commit the nation to decades of mutli-billion dollar programs and develop no alternatives in case things go bad, which Murphy’s Law says will happen, deserve to be fired. No sane organization would blow its investment capital in such a manner.

the case for the F-35 needs to be much more compelling than “something is better than nothing.” Come on we are talking about $350B+ more of taxpayer investment. To not consider alternatives is inexcusable at best, and more likely demonstrates the epitome of foolishness, hubris, & corruption.

First , you say that few nations will be able to afford more than a 100 or so cutting-edge fighters, and then you turn around and ask how thousands of highly sophisticated US fighters (Including well over a hundred F-22’s. If they can ever keep them out of the hangars, that is…) will be able to cope with those few exorbitantly expensive fighters and advanced SAMs. What’s the deal with that?

BTW, which service operated single-seat F-4s?

JL

We are not talking about the entire industry, we’re talking about Lockmart specifically who has bumbled this entire program from day one. Also may I remind you that its vendors that work for the us, NOT the other way around.

The entire premise that the JSF was created on was flawed from the start — create a single aircraft that could be everything for all the services. That took us down the same road at the F-111 but much worse due to the size of the program and the participation of international partners.

The promise of commonality of parts between the variant aircraft was almost immediately lost which in essence means we’ve been not funding one fighter program but three!

This program should have died long ago, we need to move on.

Correct! Do we need a $200 million dollar stealth aircraft to perform CAS? Something is not better then nothing if the something is so expensive we can’t operate it or afford to build it.

The military and government learn from their mistakes from the past or history? No, they can’t and will never be able to because to admit a mistake is a fatal flaw for the supposed perfect people. As long as there are lobbyists around begging for more money for their private concerns the F 35 program will remain, even though the country would get more bang from their buck with the F 18 and the F 15 programs and upgrades.

Although I will get booo’s for my comment. Why not cancel the A model and buy all C’s. That takes one model out of the equation and makes interoperability a reality. Buy the Saab for the Marines — hold on now — They are built to operate off roads and unimproved runways. The airframe could be modified for carrier ops with changes to the landing gear. Saab advertises it is very doable as they built the airframe frame to take the mod if needed. Yes it takes the fighter “thing” from the gator Marines but how often do they use it. IF THE MARINES can only get 200 hrs per engine on the V22 can you believe the issues with the F35B when operating in the dirt. I think the EA6B line is still intact so build a lightweight bomber out of it like purposed back in the 80’s. Lots of range unlike the F18, can carry a load, proven airframe and you could canx the Growler as the air frrame could still be used for EW. WE NEED TO THIN OUT THE “NEED ONE OF THOSE TOO”. Why cannot the USAF use the grower but want a F35 EW verson — they fly the EA6B now.

Seems we need a common sense solution — and I am not bashing the USAF — but they don’t need their own model of everything. Cut their Special Air Services and transfer to the Army/Navy/Marines. They ave no business in this business and it’s costs.

NO WE LISTEN TO THE CONTRACTORS AND THEIR HIRED GENERAL/ADMIRAL FRIENDS.….…..

Lockheed Martin makes they aircraft they are asked to make. You cannot blame them for the whole JSF concept which is in my opinion pretty sound if we were to stick to the high-low mix and have fighters like the F-22 to complement them.

We need to move on? To what? We don’t have a fighter program to move onto at the moment, and with the mess everything is in I rather doubt we could field design and field a new fighter before 2020.

The real obstacle to developing alternative tactical fighter programs is a psychological one. The estimated balance of the F-35 acquisition program is @$300B. The Life Cycle estimated balance is $900+B. Surely we Americans can rassle up enough Yankee Ingenuity to atleast develop alternative course of actions should the program performance continue to trend poorly. We need to develop alternative COAs that measure what utility we can accomplish with those dollars. The F-35 program has spent $60B+ and taken a decade and they have not produced a program where the future costs are certain with any degree of confidence, in fact, they are going retrograde. This is not acceptable engineering, and if we do not stop tolerating it, the situation will get worse and worse, and DoD will lose more internal cohesion, trust, and faith. They have already lost a good deal of the politician’s and public’s trust & faith that is certain.

I’m wondering why we didn’t buy 200 of the YF-23s instead of all the 5th generation fighters from only LM? That way if there is technical problems with the F-22s the F-23s are still there in operational order and same is the F-23s have a problem the F-22s are still in operation.

And there’s the old “poor little contractor” routine. There’s an unchecked revolving door between government and industry, and millions of dollars of lobbying that makes your assertion nonsense. LockMart is in everyone’s ears and pockets. They are innocent of nothing.

As for the “only option”: If we go ahead with the F-35, we will lose capability. We can not afford to field enough of these planes. The USAF in particular has said they can’t afford to build them fast enough to realize the economy of scale on the program. That will effect the other services in turn. Because they are so late now, we have to find additional money in the budget to maintain the aging force this thing is meant to replace. Your “only option” is strangling our airpower. You guys never have an answer for that. Do you expect a miracle?

Winner take all.

The morons in Congress — are frankly — beyond moronic.

The compromises of the entire F-35 program were due largely to accommodate the F-35B.

Cancel the F-35B and that logic disappears. Secondarily — the F-35B allows the U.S. to deploy these jets on other NAVY PLATFORMS other than AIRCRAFT CARRIERS. That is a game changer.

I wouldn’t give you a plug-nickel for the dangerous, short-sighted politicians running this country.

Starting with the Commander-In-Chief. To paraphrase a line in CASINO — “I wouldn’t give this guy a mop-job”.

Well the arm chair generals and the anti-F35 spammers are out in farce.….and its understandable beings that the mentality with the budget committees is to gut the national defense of the United States to the point where we will face adversaries equipped with the latest Russian technology or the latest Chinese technology and fill triple the amount of body bags…just like Rumsfeld and Bush did when they invaded Iraq with equipment that was ill prepared for warfare today. See, like it or not, there is wars in the world. Fought with the latest in Russian and Chinese and Iranian technology, and yes we are running into that technology today in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The past decade we have canceled defense programs with billions wasted with nothing to show.Our technological base has eroded to the point for now when we want to build something we must go to other countries for the raw materials and manufactured parts so we can build these toys that are over capabilitized to the point that they are now useless…and money, manpower, and lives goes down the tube canceling the programs because some idiot at the Rand institute thinks we can save money.(the RAND think tank…want to save money? Stop paying these arm chair generals money to come up with bad ideas and make them get REAL jobs and pay REAL taxes…yeah that will help halve the deficit!) Like it or not all you arm chair idiotic generals and brainless politicians, we are still at war. Our equipment is getting busted up and worn out. We need new airplanes. New howitzers.New ships. And when you cut new programs to “save money” because the Chinese told you too, you cost the USA more in the long run.…lives on the battle field, technology, manufacturing capability, and skilled workers…all so you can put a swimming pool in your back yard and money in your pocket. Greedy corrupt inept leaders…this is what America today is all about.

All of the second and third tier suppliers of the F35 are the same suppliers for the F-18 and F-15 components, i.e. fasteners, engines, tires, landing gear, windshields, helmets, connectors, cables, metal, panels, etc, etc, etc. Scrap the F35 and buy more of the real in production aircraft and this willl keep the seocnd and third tier suppliers fully employed. All of those thousans of suppliers will remain in business. Congress needs to end the waste of the 35 and v22 programs. Spend money wisely.

What is also incredibly troubling is that the F-35 JPO continues to cover-up all program problems until caught. I thought this behavior would change under Admiral Venlet but the wing spar design flaw (A&B models) comes out, again from the only trustworthy source involve in F-35, from Gilmore’s IOT&E ouotfit. By the time this defective design hits the news Lockheed and the JPO claim they’ve already redesigned it and it is no big deal even though nobody really seems to know how hard the retrofit will be. This means that the the F-35 program has know about the defective design for weeks or more. Lies and cover-ups are all you get out of the F-35 program. Well ok, lies, costs, and schedule over-runs.

The “death spiral” is the contractors version of the perpetual motion machine. It fails economics 101 but then most of the fanbois would too.

I’m for buying all 3 versions of the F-35. Maybe a few hundred less of the A model and buy more of the F-22s instead. I don’t see why we can’t buy 20, 40, or 60 F-22As a year so that when 2015 to 2017 comes around and the PAK FA and J-20 starts to be put into service we aren’t already sittin’ pretty with 400–600 F-22s and a a few hundred more F-35s.

in other words: britain gets screwed again, since the usn doesn’t care about it, but the marines badly want if (for all the wrong reasons)

if they can’t use UAV for CAS role due to jamming for example, they sure as hell can’t communicate with the f-35 imo.

OK, you got me on the nonexistent one-seat. There was an original intent to have one through a modular front end but that changed.

Your point on a limited threat fails, though. Ample enemies can afford advanced air defenses and TBMs to target distant airfields and the few big carriers if that is all that we have on station…the poor country’s asymmetric response.

China and Russia easily can afford over one hundred Pak FA and J-20s. Do you want our current situation reversed with the enemy plane being invisible and most of ours are not? F-35s also will be used at lower altitude for ground attack. F-22s will be staying at FL 60. BTW, for those who say add the F-35 advancements to F-22, it cannot be done in some cases and would be cost prohibitive compared to F-35 in the rest. It is incomprehensible that a new 6th gen fighter would cost less than F-22, let alone F-35. And it would be decades before fielding.

I understand your frustration but sometimes computer design and testing can only predict so much. And without modern measurement electronics this issue may not have been found until an accident occurs. REF: The A6 flew many years with an unknown flawed wing root design that eventually caused a wing to fly off the aircraft on a bombing run in Or., killing the crew. Who knew — no one. The result was a fix and eventually the rewinging of the A6 by Boeing. And the Navy was hurting during that transition.

Ya it is frustrating but be glad they found the issue now rather than later.

William C — I should. Because their should be alternatives on the table that offer nearly the same level of capabilities to all of the services. And yes at least the USAF could theoretically restart F-22 production.

William C. I do blame Lockheed Martin for the whole JSF concept for the biggest stuff up they’ve created for the Allies to buy the inferior turkey.

If they would just put a thrust vectoring engine on it like one of the raptor nozzelsand give it super maneuverability that would make me feel alot better about the jet , and if it would be at least twice as good as an F-16 block 50/52 or 60 and carry a respectable load in bays. It would be a good aircraft, lets face it we are going to be stuck with it ‚and if we get around 1,200 of them. It would be like getting an F-16 on steroids with AESA and IRST , helmont mounted targeting system it will be a good jet. I am a F-22 nut ‚but we are not going to get anyone with a brain to start up the F-22line and make more so with inflation considered (nothing is cheap anymore ) let,s just get the A&C models and in numbers and at least we will have something in the air that is not 30 yrs old and at least give any enemies a fight.that’s good enough for me . At leastit is not a GATES turboprop!!! Maybe we can salvage our Airforce.

Part 1
It is more like the F-4 in the sense that the basic design was suitable for all the service’s requirements vs. one or ‘none’ — depending on who you talk to concerning the F-111.
The F-4 began in 1953 as a contractor initiative. The Navy signed on to sponsor development in 1954 of what was then called the “AH-1″. This development (with “extensive” redesign) produced the basic design called the F4H-1. The Navy ordered two XF4H-1 test aircraft and five YF4H-1 pre-production fighters in 1955. IN 1962, the F4H-1 was re-designated the F-4A. It was two days shy of 1961 when the Navy received its first production F-4A, and carrier qualifications were completed the Summer of 1962. Less than 18 months later, in November 1963, the AF received its first F-4B.

Part 2
Both the F-4 and F-35 began as service-level ‘interests’ but both were then altered to fuse multi-service needs into their requirements. It just happened ALOT earlier on the F-35 than the F-4 (which is just about the ONLY point where the F-111 makes a better comparison). The F-4A was essentially finished with its development when SecDef MacNamera ‘required’ the AF to sign on to the program and was allowed to make only changes to the F-4A necessary for their mission — it was CHANCE that the F-4 design met multi-service mission needs, it is by PLAN that the same is true for the F-35.

How has LM bumbled the program? Aside from bowing to the bean counters & designing an airframe that put low cost ahead of everything else — which resulted in an overweight aircraft that had to be redesigned…

The program is proving more & more every day that the premis was/is NOT flawed & that it is/will meet or exceed all three services requirements.

While there is no longer as much of a parts commonality as originally envisioned there is STILL a lot more commonality that just physical structure of the airframes…

Part 2 (odd, it posted at the bottom the first time — musta fat fingered it.)
Both the F-4 and F-35 began as service-level ‘interests’ but both were then altered to fuse multi-service needs into their requirements. It just happened ALOT earlier on the F-35 than the F-4 (which is just about the ONLY point where the F-111 makes a better comparison). The F-4A was essentially finished with its development when SecDef MacNamera ‘required’ the AF to sign on to the program and was allowed to make only changes to the F-4A necessary for their mission — it was CHANCE that the F-4 design met multi-service mission needs, it is by PLAN that the same is true for the F-35.

Part 3
About ‘development time’. If one were to note the years between the initial development and the delivery of the first of the definitive F-4Es in 1967, one would see that the major difference between now and then is that we drag out development times to deliver more capable systems earlier in the production and not push (and pay for) far less-capable aircraft out the door in the hundreds first. I don’t think that is exactly ‘better’, but it is what it is — and it is what it is because Congressional interests decree it so.
‘Mac’ is just fine, but if you use the rank, it is ‘Senior’ or ‘Senior Master Sergeant’. Six down one up, Old –School.

Can you name a fighter program since WW2 that did not have to make structural or other changes in development and early (or even late) production? Are they hiding the fact that it is still in SDD? or are they hiding the fact that one of those ‘D’s is for ‘Development’? No, they are not. A problem is only worth reporting if it impacts the program beyond what they were expecting or what can be fixed within current planning basis. When that has happened, the F-35 program has been remarkably transparent (I think more ‘intelligently’ than ‘virtuously’)-and it buys them is the incessant uvulating of the chattering class, but they keep moving forward, hurdles are overcome, progress is made. Sad but true that there is little by way of instant gratification in doing things that are hard.

This is a rogue post in reply to another. Ignore please.

First & foremost for ALL services the cancellation of the F-35 means starting over from scratch to develope ANOTHER 5th generation strike fighter (that will take LONGER & cost MORE than the F-35) because no matter how much you try legacy platforms simply will not be able to cut it in the not too distance future PLUS the potentially CATASTROPHIC loss of combat capability due to too many too old & obsolete aircraft and not enough money to even pretend to keep them ‘up to date’ &/or ”fill the gap’ with newer models while the new ‘not F-35′ is developed.

The USAF would choose the F-35 & a B-2 replacement. YES more F-22s are needed but larger numbers of F-35s makes for an overall superior force than fewer numbers of F-22s.

The only ‘ships’ that are a higher priority for the USN than the F-35 are SSBNs & SSNs… Drone-based aviation is ONLY a suppliment/complement to manned aviation & is a LONG way from being able to ‘replace’ it to any significant degree in high intensity warfare.

The Army is the BIG LOSER due to the inability of the USAF, USN & USMC to provide effective air operations/support.

No, the price per plane would go UP because the BOTH F-35A & F-35B cost LESS than the F-35C.

There is not enough money to develope alternatives. There wasn’t even enough money for each service to be able to have separate programs.

As every one of the half dozen or so Analysis of Alternatives have concluded all ‘alternatives’ are MORE expensive than the F-35 & result is a LESS capable force.

The F-16IN does NOT have anywhere near double the combat radius of the F-35A. In fact it REQUIRES the CFTs PLUS the fuselage drop tank just to achieve the combat radius of the F-35A has with internal fuel! Even with the CFTs plus THREE drop tanks (unless two of them are 600 gal tanks which CAN NOT be dropped & limit the F-16 to IIRC 3 Gs & <Mach 1.6) & guess what 1520 gal (10,184 lbs) of CFT/external fuel does to its flight performance, the F-16 only just exceed 50% greater combat radius than the F-35A with only internal fuel (& just ~20% greater than a F-35A with external tanks).

LM COULD if the US government would let them. There already is (AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN) a plan to upgrade/retrofit ALL USAF F-22s to be able to talk to other aircraft.

Half of that 10 years has been ‘lost’ due to having to redesign the aircraft because of weight issues.

IOC COULD be achieved during the next administration by accepting Block II instead of insisting on Block III.

Restore production rates & the learning curve would increase accordingly.

Because the C is the MOST expensive model & does not meet the USAF’s OR the USMC’s requirements.

Being built to operate off roads & unimproved runways DOES NOT translate to being able to operate off a LHA/LHD.

Even assuming the A-6 line is still in tack it would take LONGER, cost MORE & be LESS capable than the F-35.

No, the USAF does not fly the EA-6B. The USN does & the USAF (since the retirement of its EF-111s) relys on the USN.

The F-35 IS the common sense solution (unfortunately there is a sad lacking of common sense among the naysayers)!

Do you not realize how utterly stupid you sound saying that the USAF does not need its own model? It is the USN & USMC which have “special needs” that require different models.

I’m wonding how people think the MORE risky, MORE likely to experience technical problems, MORE expensive, et cetera YF-23 is somehow a realistic option…

Your right the program should have had only two models from the start. The “B” for the USMC and the “C” for USAF and USN. As for the cost the “C” Model would be vastly cheaper. Because of the projected Land Based and Carrier Based Models being combined. (i.e. Global Market) Then you have far less Development Costs and that doesn’t not even consider such things like Spares, Training, etc. etc. etc.

Really, it’s naive for anybody to believe three models are cheaper than two.….….…

Quite the opposite.

In fact, when it comes to ‘infoming’ the general public if just about everything (sorry national security & intelectual property rights DO trump your ‘right to know’) of any program in history.

The plane truth is that it is/was nowhere near as big of an issue as you (7 others) wish to make it out to be, IF it were YOU (& everybody else) WUOLD have most certainly known about it much earlier. It is only a ‘story’ now because the naysayers have become so desperate for ‘bad news’ about the program.

The ‘defect’ was detected back in Nov 2010. “Structural analysis predicted” that the root rib will have “less than the desired fatigue life.” And yes a safety assessment concluding it would NOT lead to a wing failure AND retrofits for existing airframes & design/production fix for new production (starting with LRIP 5) have already been developed.

Not without significant testing. Still a long why to go on that. The design has to be stable before production learning curve happens.

Brewster Buffalo II

Tired argument given the gross over-hype over the years. Look back through all the briefings.

The F-35 is not going anywhere and I doubt it will even be cut.….…Just more of the same Politics.

Some reading on the range game.
http://​www​.aviationweek​.com/​a​w​/​b​l​o​g​s​/​d​e​f​e​n​s​e​/​i​nde…

By the way pfcem, do you know you are actually kind of spooky in your obsession with the F35?

the procurement + rdt&e budget per year is $200B+. it’s probably too much RDT&E and not enough procurement. There is plenty of money. It is just used wastefully and ineffeciently. There are people who know how to properly develop and acquire systems affordably — they are not listened to by gullible Service leadership who want unrealistic systems in the first place sold to them by industry. And then the leadership cannot make decisions about requirements and let requirements get out of control the problem is more a lack of human capital, politics, and leadership, then lack of dollars.

The debt problem the USA is facing is NOT due to defense spending, which is at about 5% of GDP, its historical average. It’s due Congress spending money like drunken sailors on entitlements and vote-buying pet projects. The Stimulus package alone dropped almost a trillion dollars (think about that!) to virtually no effect. Medicare, Medicaid and SS are the big money adsorbers, not F-35s.

How about instead of canceling a much needed recapitalization the US air fleet, we get entitlement spending under some sort of control instead? How about the federal government get back to its actual core function of providing for the common defense?

can you tell me where these AoAs so I can review them and then expose their flaws & biases?

tea party has changed everything,and obama is likely to have a negative opinion of f-35. cannot assume the program will go forwrd with ‘business as usual’

I would only add that at the root of the assault on defense spending ‘pennies’ is a concerted effort to take our eyes off the real problematic ‘dollar’ drainers:
Near Term. Trillions in bailouts (crony capitalism) and spending (all of which is ‘statism’) that expands the size and reach of the Federal government.
Long Term and getting nearer: So-called ‘non-discretionary’ spending that has absolutely nothing to do with Constitutional responsibilities.
Take care of the near term now to make taking care of the long term as painlessley as possible.
All we need is some politicos with huevos–and to get those, the public has to find theirs.

My basic philosophy is ‘comparisons are odious,’ so the similarities really have to stand out. I’m not buying this. The Phantom is a product of its peculiar iterative design process, and also arrived at a harmonious crossover point in aviation with regard to the state of the art, economics, and politics. Chance and opportunism explain the success of that old program. In fact I believe that’s the ONLY way you get a success story like that, they’re nearly impossible to engineer. The F-16 wasn’t much different. But my initial reply had very little to do with which program is most analogous to the F-35. I’m more concerned about the history of cost growth in similar situations. I’ll attach the rest to your Part 3.

The development time and also the relative ease of the “birth process” end up being critical for these programs. The F-111 gave us fewer aircraft than anticipated at higher cost. That’s a pattern with many other complex programs, and it becomes worse the more drawn out they are. The complexity increases the internal friction, while the longer they spend ‘cooking’ exposes them to the vagaries of politics and economy. For those other programs, fewer and costlier units was undesirable, but we made do. With the F-35, that is absolutely intolerable, but that is where things are. The economic and political realities are not looking good, and there are many years to go to get a high-capability plane out the hangar door. Blame who you like, but Lockheed won’t sell very many of these. ‘Need’ just isn’t going to cut it as a sales pitch.

And I apologize for the demotion, they don’t exactly hand out those stripes.

You are correct, the Army is the biggest loser in the CAS field because none of the other services want to spend money on what is really needed for CAS. A slow mover with high loiter time and good(not great) dash speed. You will not have great CAS by throwing money at the Usual Suspects who want to sell the fixed wing operators what they all want. Another fast shiny hi-tech aircraft is not the answer. All the stealth in the world cant stop Browing M2 rounds when your on a low attack run, but a titanium armor tub will help.

I know you think you are real important but the purpose of the government isn’t just to run your own personal entitlement program.

stimulus package (to the wall street and car makers) was returned in full. and obamacare-like healthcare works perfectly well in europe.

Lockheed has not proven the B works. It was put on probation, but we really don’t know all the details, which could be classified. Lets see if it really works this year. If not, cancel it. Well, maybe we should cancel the B anyway. The British felt its ability to land vertically with full load was not impressive. What if, after a short takeoff, a problem forces the pilot to land on this non-aircraft carrier (must be a vertical landing)?

Incorrect. Citigroup and B of A still have uncertain assets “guaranteed” by the gov. GM repaid part of its debt with other gov money. Teens of GM loan billions are outstanding and 60% gov equity in GM is less than those loans. Most monies repaid were from Bush’s TARP, not Obama’s $789 stimulus where clean energy programs and short-term shovel-ready project have largely failed.

More importantly, if the gov did not impose such stiff CAFE standards for fuel economy, U.S. automakers would fare far better. Same for strict emission standards. EPA-supported actions concerning off-shore drilling, new refineries, & Alaska/Canadian piplines also increase reliance on overseas oil thus raising costs. If mortgage interest wasn’t such a major deduction, there wouldn’t be the extreme coastal housing inflation and mortgage defaults.

European health care is cheaper because there is less risk of litigation, and fewer societal problems like obesity. Also, I personally agree that medical technology and lawsuit-inspired defensive testing is overly the top in the U.S. Something must be done to restrict cost-growth in Medicare/Medicaid. U.S. rich do need to be taxed more as opposed to Europe where everyone’s taxes are high. In Eisenhower’s days the top tax rate was 90% applied to top portions of income.

Healthcare works perfectly well in Europe? and they don’t spend anywhere near what we do on defense? Why then are their economies in worse shape and the Euro teetering on collapse? I think it ‘worked’ well is more appropriate. The overly generous entitlements in Europe, coupled with US defense on their behalf, followed by burdensome tax levels, are coming together to strangle Europe.

Hmmmm. You have given me an idea for a post at my place.
And while I don’t agree with a lot of what you just posted — for instance the F-111s problems were manifold, beginning with too diverse mission requirements, you nail it on the longer they spend ‘cooking’ point. That has shown to be true time and again on any large, complex program: Boston’s ‘Big Dig’, Sydney Opera House to name two that come to mind.
If you base the ‘Lockheed won’t sell many’ on the BS cost projections being peddled by Congressional mandate, you’re going to be surprised.
No sweat on the rank — as I said, “Mac” is fine,

You people are such fools. You can cancel this fighter and the contractor will take their hundreds of millions of dollars in profits and laugh at you all the way to the bank, or you can continue this program and get a piece of crap fighter and continue to pay the contractor a profit on every dime they waste. You lose, or you lose. I guess that makes you all losers.

The biggest entitlement program in America is tax cuts for the wealthy. Upper 1% pay an average 17%. Average middle class pay 35% (combined income, social security, medicare taxes). There are large tax breaks for dividends and capital gains, where the truly wealthy get their income. The greatest health care savings to Americans would occur if everyone was put on Medicare, like Europe, Japan, Korea, and so on. If we did not fight endless wars of occupation, there would be plenty of money available for DOD.

I aree to a point. The “excellence” of the modeling and sim work has been used to justify untested production jets. These jets will then require retrofits that will be expensive and time consuming to fix. Maybe this one is an easy fix and retrofit, time will tell. Will the next one?

My main point was that the F-35 JPO continues to hide all problems which then makes you suspect there are still more things that have not hit the light of day. Another recent issue was the ungrounding of the production jets for the IPP problem where the DoD said they would remain grounded until a fix was made. A week later they are brought to flight status without the fix? Was that political? Was the safety community supportive of that change? No real explanation was given for this change (The SDD jets apparently had instrumentation which allowed proper monitoring of the switch position). Funny things are still going on.

If we really need 5000 aircraft like the F-35 that cant penetrate a modern IADS, then 5000 F-18s are a far better deal.

The die was cast for a much smaller and ineffective USAF when the F-22 production was curtailed, establishing the winners and losers. The winners are not the F-35 and F-18. In a short time they will be be lost too, because there is no financial support for the DOD. The days of US air dominance are over and the worsening trend will continue until a bottom is achieved. The bottom will be defined by a threat crisis, and a general realization of national helplessness. I am not going to waste my time trying to advocate. That would only delay the inevitable. Stopping the F-22 at less than useful numbers told everyone, friend and foe alike, that the US is done. So, keep your powder dry until the crisis. The seeds of a humiliating defeat to the USAF are being cultivated. Remedial action can only be effected after the demonstration of weakness. Unfortunate, isn’t it?

JAFO, your question reveals how good the media is at influencing public opinion. I will reverse the argument. Why aren’t other USAF aircarft required to have the equipment to communicate with F-22s without negating its stealth? Or, why would we go through all the trouble to design a comm-link that is secure and low probability of intercept and then give away the advantage by forcing use of an obsolete system? Here’s a fix for this “problem”…Have an all F-22 force.

Just a small advice for navy and royal marine for their Qmary aircraft carrier … BUY RAFALE hahahaha

It work … Good, very good :p

And now news that the F-35 may not be what it has claimed to be Air-to-Air:
http://​www​.​f​-16​.net/​n​e​w​s​_​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​4​4​1​6​.​h​tml

Without seeing the details of this analysis it is hard to say that it is definitive but it should at least make you question putting all of your eggs in the F-35 basket. Do we need more F-22s for the Air Force? Do we need an F/A-XX in the Navy. Is F-35 really the answer for where all of the TACAIR money should go for the next 20 years?

Weaponhead,

It’s ELP, can’t you guess his unnamed source?

LOL

Mac

i agree. this is BS, spending money like druken sailors on a program that will not work. we need to reinvest in our legacy a/c and keep the 35s we have built and fly the shit out of them and work through the issues. maybe in 2 to 3 years or so we will have enough experience and information that we can actually build a reliable a/c.

Yeah, the government has a lot to answer for if the F-35 program goes belly up. LockMart is doing a petty horrid job, but seriously, the government asked for this POS. The only alternative we have if the program is canned is to just stick with what we were using. As much as I hate the F-35 train wreck scrapping it really isn’t good for our position in the world. It could be that we need this kind of set back to get our poop straight but I don’t have much faith that it would help.

As for William C.‘s other point, 2020 is the absolute earliest anything new could be produced (if we started from scratch) and that is insanely optimistic. Any replacement program will be just as horribly managed if not significantly worse!

Here we go again. Lets replace the H-60? Why don’t they make these helo’s to last? I was flying in Huey’s when the H-60 came out. They got rid of the best workhorse they had, the H-53 in favor of a whirlygig airplane thing that still has issues and with a cabin almost as small as an H-60 and definately smaller that a 53. Oh by the way, the good ol hueys are still flying 40–50 years later.

Afraid that you are right; there is plenty of blame to go around. There always is, witness the still ongoing litigation over the A-12 fiasco. I guess its just those “enlightened” business management practices at work with a lot of good engineers and program managers trying to act like schylock lawyers instead of building an airplane. So sad.… .… .…

Exactly!

This has taken so long and cost so much. Its still light years behind the Soviet Yak-41M it was derived from. I started wondering wether it would cost less to refinance Yakelov air works(now gone). Start with the design Lock-Mart bought, plug in standard 2011 Avionics and Fire control systems and give it to the USMC for use on small flattops. At the current rate Lock-Mart will hit the milestones hit by the Soviets in the 1980s by 2025.
Then we do not have to engineer around the changes Lock –Mart made to be able to say we weren’t using a old Soviet design. Naysayers(Marines) take a look at the Yak-41M(Yak-141) videos on youtube and think about what Marine Fixed wing aviation is really used for, seems like a winner. Could be in the fleet before F-35 is ready.

F-22 line is shut down, A-10’s are clapped out, and USMC needs VTOL
Spend the money this way:
USAF: F-15 Silent Eagles + UCAVs
USN: More F/A-18s + UCAVs
USMC: Attack version of V-22
USA Aviation: more UH helos and buy some AV-22s from USMC

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