China’s ability to make quality jet engines

China’s ability to make quality jet engines

While there’s no question that China is rapidly growing and modernizing its military, analysts have long seen the PRC’s lack of expertise in making high-performance jet engines as a major obstacle in Beijing’s quest to field a 21st Century air force.

Right now, the PRC largely relies on Russia to supply the engines for its modern fighters — something that makes it too reliant on an outside power. However, China is making strides when it comes to jet engine development. A few months ago, U.S. Naval War College professor Andrew Erickson released this analysis of China’s ability to produce modern fighter engines. Now, Erickson is taking aim at China’s advances in building jet engines for large aircraft for both military and civilian use.

Here are some key points from Erickson’s latest report that he co-wrote with Gabe Collins:


– Buyers in China are expected to purchase 5,000 commercial aircraft and more than 2,300 business jets in the next 20 years, a number of aircraft that could require nearly 16,000 commercial turbofan engines to be purchased in the base scenario and 13,000 engines in the pessimistic growth scenario.

– Major large aircraft buys by China’s military could easily add another 500–1,000 engines to these totals.

– Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Commercial Aircraft Engine (ACAE) plans to spend an average of US$300 million per year on jet engine R&D during the next five years, according to People’s Daily.

– This is much less than the current jet engine market leaders (Rolls Royce, GE, Pratt & Whitney), who spent between US$1.4 and US$2.0 billion each on R&D in 2010 (8.3% to just under 13% of their respective sales revenue).

– ACAE’s lower investment level may not enable it to catch up and develop a competitive commercial (and military) jet engine construction capability.

– Civilian aeroengine development has military implications. The same large high-bypass turbofans used in civilian airliners can, with little or no modification, power large military aircraft including tankers, transports,Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, and others. The major U.S. heavy lift aircraft (C-17 and C-5), tankers (KC-10 and KC-135), and AWACS and others (E-3A and P-8A) all either are, or can be, powered by engines that are basically identical to commercial aircraft powerplants.

Now here’s a very interesting point made by Erickson and Collins — the West, in its rush to supply the booming Chinese aviation market may be helping to develop China’s military edge:

– Joint ventures with jet engine market leaders like General Electric (GE) have the potential to give the Chinese aerospace industry a 100 piece puzzle with 90 of the pieces already assembled. Enough is left out so that the exporting companies can comply with the letter of the export control laws, but in reality, a rising military power is potentially being given relatively low-cost recipes for building the jet engines needed to power key military power projection platforms including tankers, AWACS, maritime patrol aircraft, transport aircraft, and potentially, subsonic bombers armed with standoff weapons systems.

– While already a significant source of potentially damaging technology transfer, the imperative to prioritize quarterly profits today over long-term profits and strategic concerns may be exacerbated as long-term military spending constraints in Europe, Japan, and now even the U.S. may drive Western aeroengine manufacturers even further into Chinese joint ventures to replace revenue.

Here’s the full report: A Chinese “Heart” for Large Civilian and Military Aircraft: Strategic and commercial implications of China’s campaign to develop high-bypass turbofan jet engines.

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Airbus has already given them an A320 assembly line. Their reward is the Chinese “designed” COMAG 919. Compare it to an A320.

Then there were the high speed trains. The europeans shared their technology. Look what happened.

GE has been abetting China’s technology drive for years. Their CEO says one thing (he’s one of Obama’s advisors on job creation after all), while keeping his options open. I doubt that GE is an “American” company anymore; they see themselves as “global”, a “corporation for the world”.

Nothing new here.

you wouldn’t want them attacking us with cheap Chinese knockoffs would you?

seriously though, there are no American corporations or French corporations or Japanese corporations or… all large scale corporations (and most medium scale corporations) are “non-citizens” looking out for their own [usually short-term] interests. I suppose there might be an exception for government-owned corporations but even they tend to get controlled by people with other interests (either the national elite or the employees…neither is very good but at least the employees represent a larger portion of the general population)

What?! A tubular fuselage with a swept wing and two engines slung underneath it? Those thieving bastards! /s

Engine technology is a completely different animal. It’s no surprise that they are using western engines on their passenger aircraft. And IMO those last ten pieces of the 100-piece puzzle will be very difficult to recreate.

The real danger here is that we “presume” that the Chinese advances are just stolen (or otherwise acquired) western technology. Aside from any sort of social or racial egotism, that could lull us all into believing that turning off the faucet would stop the process. They have a huge supply of very intelligent and well educated engineers and designers, access to at least all of the “open literature”, and a desire to be second to none in aviation and military technology.

Here in the west, we may still have the ability to make game-changing advances in the applicable technologies, but I really question our “willpower” to make it happen. If we continue to think of the Chinese only as “knockoff artists”, that “willpower” never regains its vigor, and we will all eventually have to brush up on technical Mandrian.

Yet they have bought aircraft, reverse engineered them, and built copies, just like what they did with the Su-27. Not very ethical, but it works.

Yep, just like the (high speed) trains, those planes. They could have done it in their sleep without having to resort to stealing the technology, right? Not!

And refusing to use good design concepts (and even blueprints) if you have them is a smart way of doing business? If you dont have to worry about the patent lawyers forclosing on your business, all is fair.… . :-)

If we had been able to make mass production copies of the Me-262 or the Japanese Long Lance torpedos in 1942, do you think that we would have hesitated one picosecond due to any ethical concern?

We gave the Chinese B-2 technology when Boeing outsourced the construction of the 787 to China. Now we’re outsourcing the engines to China too. But it’s ok. They are our friends. When we can’t produce anything here, they won’t attack us because they are such good friends of ours.

The engineers, veterans of Boeing’s work on the B-2 stealth bomber two decades ago, told investigator Rick Barreiro that technology and know-how developed for that secretive military program would be used in manufacturing the company’s newest commercial jet.

The engineers refused to sign forms declaring that the 787 program is free of military data. One said he feared signing would leave him open to federal indictment.

Their assertions set off flashing red lights at Boeing. Federal law prohibits U.S. companies from letting militarily sensitive technical expertise go abroad.

Yet Boeing’s entire global manufacturing plan for the 787 hinges on having foreign suppliers build large structures out of advanced composite materials.

The Seattle Times, Jan 22, 2006 (http://​seattletimes​.nwsource​.com/​h​t​m​l​/​b​u​s​i​n​e​s​s​t​e​c​h​n​o​l​o​g​y​/​2​0​0​2​7​5​4​2​2​4​_​b​o​e​i​n​g​i​t​a​r​2​2​.​h​tml)

Feel free to read the whole article. It goes on at length telling about all the hoops Boeing had to jump through to send B-2 technology to China legally. It is a victory for globalists everywhere.

Did a 2011 two-theater QDR ever see the light of day?

it was that or let Airbus destroy Boeing in the commercial sector. Bail out Boeing at the expense of Northrop, Lockhead? Defense industry goes in cycles, they need a commercial market to hedge so they don’t collapse. Should the US
government pay exorbitant prices
for their products to keep them
going all the time? Their money at any product they pitch all in the
name of national security?

Throw money, not their. Lots of tough calls the export decision. Yet people complain that we have draconian export controls. Damned if you do…

Japan got it’s start making cheap knock-offs, then surprised the world with benchmark setting products (ahem, Toyota, Honda, et al).

America’s first jet fighter was a knock-off of a captured German jet fighter.

Henry Ford built his first internal combustion engine using blueprints out of a magazine.

Everybody gets their start somewhere.

China is the winner of the hyper-globalism game. They just don’t seem to follow the King Arthur Knights of the Round Table “fair play” rules. The long term national security interests of our nation are secondary to short term profits of global corporations and China knows it.

Right.… the composite rudder built in China for the Dreamliner somehow compromises B-2 tech despite the fact that the bomber is a rudderless aircraft built of completely different material.

The part was a token gesture to the Chinese to be able to sell them completed 787’s… saying they “gave them B-2 tech” is a tad over dramatic.

BS — they’ll be ahead of you in aeroengine ceramics, superalloys, digital controls etc. in a few years if they are not there already — just common sense as they are not going broke and have lots of cash, are transferring technologies both legally and covertly, doing massive domestic R&D, and are training their engineers and scientists en mass at home and abroad. Just forget this smug attitude towards the “yellow man”…

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Yeah, “people” complain about export controls. What “people” are those who are complaining? Oh, you mean “people” as in Wes Bush, CEO of Northrop (http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​0​8​/​1​7​/​n​o​r​t​h​r​o​p​-​c​e​o​-​p​u​s​h​e​s​-​f​o​r​-​u​n​m​a​n​n​e​d​-​e​x​p​o​r​t​-​r​e​f​o​r​ms/). Yeah, now there’s a representative sample of one. Hey, I think I see a trend…

I can’t blame them for it, the problem is that we keep selling them stuff anyway.

The 787 uses advanced composites for sure, but it isn’t using whatever fancy radar absorbent composites the B-2A may be using. More likely, the connection between the two programs is related to making and assembling large scale composite components.

I’m not saying it this is a wise move, but this is the way the economy works today.

China has most of what they have because they stole it from us. So when you look behind the green curtain you notice a lack of ability to innovate and quality control problems. A great deal of Chinese ‘industry’ is literally done in the living rooms of people’s houses.

As a side note, even with all our regulation it’s still cheaper to produce in the U.S., when you consider the cost of rework. Most bean counters won’t deal with that, because moving to China is a bury and forget proposition for them.

J-10B powered with WS-10 engine.

Here’s the deal, William. Stealth is mostly shaping. I know the defense contractors don’t want you to think that, but it has been true from the start and it is still true today. Coatings and edge treatments soak up a lot of money, but most of stealth is shaping and that will continue to be true well into the future. When you give a country like China the capability to make airplanes and you show them pictures of your stealth airplanes — and what the hell, they probably have already stolen the CAD models of most of our stealth designs — you’re pretty much giving them everything they need to build their own next generation aircraft. Honestly I think we made a huge mistake by relying so much on coatings and edge treatments at the expense of speed and mission readiness.

You have obviously never been to china.

The funny thing is that the Japanese got there initial reputation for cheap stuff because they were mainly selling to American companies and that is what they wanted in the 60s and 70s. Just as the Chinese do today.

While China’s R&D is accelerating ours is in rapid decline, Chinese kids want to be doctors and engineers American kids want to sing on TV, the result is quite predictable.

Stop free trade and the evils of globalism crowd, I presume? Sure, nationalised industries are better?

The Harrier is a high bypass turbofan powered airplane. It redirects the bypass air for vertical lift. Even though the large fan disk keeps it subsonic, it makes a good fighter/attack airplane. Similar aircraft could be designed around a CF-6 or a derivative that is 90% of a CF-6. Most fighters cannot fly supersonic loaded with ordinance and fuel anyway. None can dogfight supersonic. The most they can do is run away at supersonic speed given they’ve got enough altitude. The other attack airplane to put turbofans to good use is the A-10. Of course, if you fix all the compressibility problems that design has you up it’s top speed from Mach 0.6 to 0.85 burning the same amount of fuel as it does currently. Not that China has any top notch designers right now, but if one guy with some aptitude designs enough planes he will typically get better as he goes. Anyone who sees the difference between the way the P-38 and SR-71 deal with compressibility can see that Kelly Johnson learned a lot as his career went on. Of course, we’re too sophisticated to have one guy design our airplanes now. We have faceless, unaccountable committees to do that now.

You are a Liar. China is a very professorial thief stealing Western military and industrial secrets.Are you a true Chinese? Do you believe what you said-chinese kid s want to be doctors and engineers?hohoho…… let me tell you​.In China,almost of kids are very eager to be a so-called ‘Gongwuyuan’ , a non-election government official which is completely controlled by Communist Party of China. The Gongwuyuan is much too rich than the doctor or engineer. He or she can make lots of money by renting political power in China.So,what you said is completely nonsense.

yes, so true

Standard Oil/Rockefeller found a cheap source of labor and was a NGO in Japan way before China looked cheaper. So, the funny thing about “that is what THEY wanted in the 60s and 70s.” (emphasis mine), is that “THEY” are the international banksters who fund our politicians. China didn’t have to steal the high-tech missile lathes, the Loral-made sats, the waiver for Hughes’ transfer of advanced sat encryption systems while Clinton was trying to lift the ban on exporting nuclear technology to China. Clinton gave it away, most likely just getting his strings pulled by his biggest (bankster) campaign donors. And, likely, not much has changed since. It’s not theft if it’s a gift?

You might be interested in this article. Even the Russians have figured out the Chinese .
http://​www​.strategypage​.com/​h​t​m​w​/​h​t​w​i​n​/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​s/2…

General Electric, General Motors, Ford, the electronics companies, mining companies, and the banks are all international companies, beholding to now country or its self-interest. This is why transnational corporations are a threat to American interests. We are in denial to believe anything else. That’s why we should require them to spinn off their foreign operations so we can treat them as beligerents and corporate insurgents..

Three points: (1) Our companies will sell anything to anybody to make a buck. Some even sold to the Nazis through the Swiss in WW2. (2) We graduate 30,000 new engineers each year. The Chinese, 300,000. How long do you think it will take them to catch up? And then pass us? (3) China and America are separated by an ocean. Last time we were afraid of Asians was Vietnam. Cost 58,000 lives and now Vietnam is our trading partner making London Fog, sneakers and sports goods. So why bother? We don’t go to war with our trading partners, which is what China is. Plus we owe them $850 billion. Best option: Cut the military and buy stock in Chinese companies.

These joint ventures all but eviscerate ITAR efforts.

You can’t reverse engineer a stealth aircraft from a bunch of typical pictures. CAD models and actual program data is a different story, and there are examples of the Chinese stealing these. If anything that shows the overlooked need for much improved cyber-security. That is more dangerous than China making the rudder assembly of the 787.

Yes, the greatest portion of stealth is in shaping, but don’t underestimate the materials factor. RAM does require special maintenance, but things continue to get easier in that regard. When it comes to ease of stealth-related maintenance, the F-22A was a massive leap from the F-117 and B-2. The F-35 is a major improvement over the F-22 in that same area.

As far as speed goes, I don’t think either the F-22 or F-35 are capable of reaching speeds where the RAM coatings would be damaged by the heat.

It’s so foolish to fear of China. China is just a buffoon

This is the part where you list your credentials so that we know whether or not to take you seriously. (My money’s on not.)

dude

you do not know how to spell “ordnance”

why are you posting on a milblog

I do know how to spell imaginary fears. China lack of war experience while US geting through Iraq and Afghanistan. just take look at our weapons, no need worry about China. Yes, we are in pretty much sovereign debt crisis. But China can not be optimistic about its economic condition as well, high inflation rate, low public satisfaction, large gap of wealth. dude, don’t focus only on military, you shall read more THE ECONOMIST

The problems is that there are two China’s that we deal with on a regular basis and they are polar opposites. Our relationship with Chinese business vs. our dealings with their military are completely different. Ignoring the latter’s rush to the build a huge and modern military which they seem to have no trouble using to bully their neighbors seems fairly short sighted.

You’re asking me to list my credentials and not the guy claiming the 787 rudder somehow exposes B-2A stealth technology to the Chinese?

The F-35’s stealth may be more durable then the F-22/F-117, but the 8 million+ lines of computer code needed to make to make the plane fly can hardly be called an improvement of any kind.

The F-22’s speed is limited due to both its composite structure and the fixed inlets for its engines.

The F-35 flying at its max speed of Mach 1.6 is pretty much slower then any of other modern fighter aircraft (except for the Super Hornet) so not damaging its stealth coatings at this level of performance is not saying much!

China and Russia prove on a regular basis that nationalized weapons industries are better than paying a contractor more to fail. If you actually put any stock in capitalism at all, you’d be able to figure out why that is. Capitalism works. It can either work for you or against you, depending on how you write the rules. When NASA actually worked, Werner Von Braun designed their rockets as a NASA employee. Do you think NASA is better now?

I love the “China makes junk” and “China can only copy” memes. Like Freddy or Jason, they refuse to die. We ignore the PLA at our peril. Yes they have some supply issues. But they DO make jet engines. The USN assumed that the A6M was junk at the start of WWII, many pilots died before they took it seriously.

A nation that can build nuclear weapons AND put a manned capsule in orbit is to be taken seriously. An air force with stealth/low RCS aircraft is not to be dismissed. An army with an ICBM that could sink a carrier is very bad.

Once the PLA irons out their engineering problems (really most of this is quality control) watch out.

And I might add that some of the “quality control” problems might be just a different perspective. An old Russian made AK-47 had all sorts of appearance issues that would NEVER have made it out of a US factory… but it would always shoot. It would shoot even if dumped in ditch full of swamp water, run over by a truck and buried in the mud.

I remember an article a few years back in AvWeek that sort of sneered at the Chinese for routinely using oak tiles as a heat shield on one of their recoverable satellites. I have to wonder.… Is it more “backwards” and crude and less sophisticated to use $200 of oak for an ablative heat shield, rather than $2,000,000 worth of exotic ceramic tiles? Or could it be just common sense and good innovative engineering (which along with our national debt, we seem to have shipped across the Pacific!) ?

If return for short-term financial gains, the western nations have transferred engineering and manufacturing technologies and techniques (many of them dual use) to China. Hence — since the western governments have given away the farm w/r/t technologies (something they never did with Russia/USSR) and trade agreements (sacrificing the manufacturing base and jobs), we are now fueling the massive Chinese military buildup while WE DECLINE.

DO NOT BUY CHINESE-MADE PRODUCT. COMPLAIN TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVES: PRESERVE/PROTECT AMERICAN JOBS AND THE MANUFACTURING BASE.

Oh no, in 20 years of linear economic growth, China may be a major military power. But aren’t we supposed to be speaking Japanese according to the same prophets? If you, and the Chinese, despite all the mutual free trade interests, want escalation and a self fulfilling prophecy of war, I’m sure it can happen. Don’t try to use some simplistic Pearl Harbor analogy.

And don’t be so sanctimonious to think the US and its allies don’t spy on each other. There probably is a contingency plan to defend and invade Canada in the Pentagon collecting dust and the equivalent in the Canadian MoD.

In the big picture China has alot going against it such as an ageing population, massive pollution, declining birthrate, massive government and private sector debt with funny accounting. We should be more concerned with a black swan events such as airplanes crashing in new york then preemptively nuclear bombing Bejing. Do you think Russia, Japan, or anyone else like to see China’s “destined“rise to power?

Much as I would like to discuss the various conflicts within China it’s hardly relevant. The amusing thing is that the Chinese are even more fragmented then America in that regard and like so much else they are even more American then Americans.

The mistake is thinking it’s all in the secret source. If you cant get sustained innovation and execution the secret sauce wont help you — you have already lost the game. It’s as old as recorded history, Americans complaining now are no different then the Greeks complaining about the Romans.

To equate all Chinese or all from China are thieves is akin of saying all Whites belong to KKK party and all Muslims are terrorists.

So pathetic and narrow-minded!!!

If America did not buy from China especially on the low-end product, Wal-mart will have to source them from other developing countries like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc and the jobs will still not return to America.

On high tech ones, America may not able to produce that amounts of talents — that is why she out-sourced to India, China, Japan etc etc. So again these works will also not return to America

China has experienced 20 years of double digit GDP growth. Growth compounds. That means (for the mathematically impaired) it is not linear. Japan has 130 million people living on a series of islands. China has 1.3 billion people in a nation roughly the size of the US. So let’s keep exporting our jobs to Communist Red China and see what happens. I mean, what could possibly go wrong with that plan?

The problem is the Chinese fixing some minor production issues. When they do the DoD will have it’s Oh Crap moment.

It s interesting to see that analysis’s in Europe Japan and now even Australia are starting to talk about the awful truth — that being in a military alliance against their major trading partner doesn’t make sense.

To the poster “Dfens”

You wrote: “When NASA actually worked, Werner Von Braun designed their rockets as a NASA employee. Do you think NASA is better now?”

Technically, the “Ares V” beats Von Braun’s “baby”, the “Saturn V”. But I admit: Sometimes I also wonder what N.A.S.A. would look like today with a larger budget, with Von Braun still alive and with Von Braun as its director, not as its “employee”…

They’re going to take over the world and one day I think they will land their troops on our soil and the second american revolution will begin. I know it sounds a lot like the Homefront scenario but its probably true, I mean no one on this planet will ever in their right mind use nuclear weapons no one EVER.

Good Morning Folks,

I see the editor of the site is one again trying to shake up the butternuts.

The aircraft being talked about although not mentioned is the Chinese c-919 a 168 seat commercial aircraft scheduled to enter domestic service in China sometime between 2016 and 2020. It is not licensed for international or US use.

An article a couple of years ago in the WSJ pretty much said it all. Most of the c-919 is being produced by foreign manufactures. Other US contractors to the c-919 are Honeywell (flight controls), Rockwell Collins (communications and navigation systems), Hamilton Sundstand (power systems), Eaton (fuel and hydraulics systems) and Parker Aerospace (flight controls, hydraulics).

Mentioned in quite a few post is China reverse engineering US defensive systems. I noticed that no specific systems are mentioned, maybe because there are none?

Contrary to US right wing mythology China has a very poor record at copying US or even Soviet era technology. While it is correct that several US defensive systems have been sent to China via spies including the W-88 nuclear weapon in 1978, and technology transfers by US companies including IBM, Lockheed and Boeing but China like Germany in WW II with the Norden Bomb Sight (in 1939 Germany aquired a working Norden, plans, specification manuals and operational manuals) just can’t reproduce US technology.

As per jet engines or for that matter any other power plants China is reliant on foreign sources for all. The Chinese have yet to design and build an all Chinese Maritime Diesel, aircraft jet engine, Gas Turbine etc.

China building its armed forces, how could that be when the size of the current PLA is about have of what it was in 1978 when the four modernizations were announced?

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Oh, so that space station they just lauched is a hoax?

If a war was to be instigated with China, it would most likely occur if China decided to call in the hundreds of billions of bonds they have sitting in their treasury. This war would be started by a US warhawk since it’s not fun to play capitalism when you’re on the indebted side.

Does China have much to benefit by doing such a maneuver? Not a lot, only if they are pushed in a corner but they can hold that threat over the US’ head for time eternal. Such an action would be a pyhrric victory, as the world economy would be disarray if the US goes down, so not likely.

The moral of the story? Calm down, neo-NeoCons. It’s not practical to shut off from world trade and globalism and be “self-sustaining” like N. Korea either.

Another trip down alternate reality lane with the top “butternut” of all. When you’re ready to have a REAL conversation on the Chinese military without regurgitating the same broken record China can’t do anything mythology let me know.

Meanwhile I’ll go back to the real world and read about the new Chinese space station module that they launched yesterday.

http://​spaceflightnow​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​n​1​1​0​9​/​2​9​t​i​a​n​g​o​n​gla…

Good Evening Folks,

Sine you butternuts want to change the subject, I can only assume that the questions I suppose are unanswerable to any of you. I will go with it.

China’s space station. Look at the foreign contributions to the program. The Chinese Space Station is far from an all China project, but so what. The Russians make the engines that Lockheed uses in the Atlas Space Launch vehicle, yea big deal.

The best space launching country in the world is the Russian Federation and in thirty years still can’t get the Topol M ICBM to work.

Last week was the eleventh failed test out of seventeen attempts. US missile experts figure there have been over 30 test attempts and over 25 failures.

It is quite clear that there is little technical connect between build a space launch vehicle and an ICBM, as there is little connection between a commercial airliner and a tactical hauler.

To lka. China is always buying and selling US Treasury Bonds (June 1st 22011 numbers) of the appox $14.5 trillion US Treasury Bonds issued about 30% $4.35 trillion) are held by foreign interest of which China is holding about 30%. or $1.31 trillion.

That is less then 10% of the total debt. I would suggest that really doesn’t give China the leverage to do much and anything they would do would reduced the value of their own holdings so what’s the point?

In short China has far less interest in going to war with the US the The Heritage Foundation has in the US going to war with China. For China it would cost money for Heritage they would make a bundle.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

The huge problem here as all debates about Chinese capabilities is under estimating their ambitions and learning curve. They have a great intelligence system, and can steal technology like no other country can. And with traitors in American business like Boeing, Sikorsky, GM, Ge and others, they have the know how to produce advanced jet engines, and in large numbers compared to other western countries. Give them a few years and their technology will be greater than ours. Although the Chinese have a large, and ill equipped armed forces structure, they are making great strides in getting modern weapons on par with ours. The only solution here is to stop selling the Chinese their technology and know how through commercial products like jet engines, and air craft and advanced computers.

The western nations are giving China enough technology to allow further development of a complete unit. While our companies are seeking lower cost in building engines, aircraft, or any technology, in the future it will cost the west dearly. It is not good to ship defense manufacturing to a potential enemy because of cost. We have politicans in government who only care about reelection. Granted, trade between countries is necessary, but not out defense. While we spends billions on development of our defense, we then give part of it to China which allows China to spend millions to complete the job. We are a country of fools.

Nation building exercises and helping export US taxpayer dollars for the DEFENSE of other nations and their industries is quite harmful to long range US interests also.

Its not a great feeling when the US is building a multi-billion dollar missile shield for the richest regional economy on earth (EU), or having US soldiers protect Chinese mineral/oil companies in Afghanistan, exporting American (Edward Deming, father of the Quality revolution) talent to post war Japan so they can destroy our Auto and tech industry, the list goes on.

Good Morning Folks,

To @7thwave. I disagree. There are no indications that China has any ambitions outside of any country that shares a border with China. Even those countries the concern is defensive not offensive. Tibet is a special case.

Personally I haven’t a problem of being critical of US business that export technology to China are any other country but that is what one gets in a world based economy. But if you are going to manufacture goods in another country it only makes sense that you must send the technology too.

The Chinese learning curve is rather long and with not much of a slope. As a Chinese acquaintance told me, China’s industrial base is nothing more the the assembly and packaging of goods designed, created and engineered in the US and sent back. We went on to discuss the reasoning why China can’t copy or create its own technology but I won’t go into that here.

To the best of my knowledge there are no major military platforms/systems that were take buy what ever means and reversed engineered and became a successful Chinese platform. The Chinese do have an active and productive spy/espionage groups/individuals working in the US and they have been incredibly productive since WW II but when the information get to China is dies. Again if anyone know any exceptions to this statement please put it up, I for one would like to know.

The reasons are rather lengthy in description and complex that deals with theories and cultural differences between the US and China and I doubt that any of you could grasp the arguments.

Currently the arguments that those peculiar institutions of stink yanks are making to build up a China that quite simply isn’t are only meant to justify to brainless members of congress to spend money on defensive platforms/systems that are not needed and will never be used.

Here is one item that may surprise you betternuts. The PLA is no longer the largest military/para-military group in China. The PLA/PLAR/PLAN/PLAAF/PLANMC/etc is currently about 1.5 million this other group has surpassed 2 million. A clue it’s not the old Peoples Militia which has officially been disbanded, but still exists as something like a Veteran organization.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Do you even know that China’s C-17 class heavy cargo plan will be revealed within a year? And it will be equipped with engines based on the WS-10A core? You claim that Chinese could not reverse-engineer American technology, but Chine maintains a large active espionage ring in the US sounds self-contradictory, and is obviously contradictory to official and expert opinions. J-20 and ASBM has no Western equivalents, and China and US are the only countries that have successfully conducted direct-ascend anti-satellite test and mid-course interception of ICBM so far. China has the world’s fastest and 3rd fastest supercomputers. China is the 3rd country in the world to deploy it’s own satellite navigational system. And you are right, none of these are copies of Western technologies.

So the entire tailplane structure of the A350 did what, give them next generation bomber technology?

Good Evening,

To gen kin. Lets see according to US “experts” the J-20 is little more the a Su-27 inside, the engines are built in Russia and bought through the Ukraine. The J-20 still uses hydraulic control systems. The ASMB has yet to be invented by anybody including the United States. The anti-satellite technology was first demonstrated by the Soviets in the 1980’s and the single take down of a satellite by Chinas has some unanswered questions regarding a homing device in the target.

China has not done a test of of mid course interception of an ICBM, they did do a ABM test and hit a target at 500 km. with a missile that has a range of only 300 km., another one that US intelligence is still trying to figure out.

On a navigational satellite system Chins is in the process of putting up a constellation. The US, Russia and EU already have operational system and have for years. On satellite on 2009 for the big CCP bash and showing off military/space technology China had only a single working communications satellite of the over 100 satellites it has put up.

On computers since China has not chip production capacity not controlled by foreign companies that are not about to transfer any current technology to China, any computers that they have in the class that you are referring to would be most parts commercially imported or acquired in some other way from outside China.

China’s spy/espionage activities have been well documented and there are dozens of book out there dealing with the topic.

The principle reason for Chinese and Taiwanese born nationals, first and second US born Chinese and Taiwanese for transfer information to China is that they are trying to help China catch up wit the west in technology, not for money. The Chinese even when they pay for material don’t pay very well.

Come on butternuts you can do better then this.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Sorry gen kin but you statement just don’t hold up. They are all part of the myth about China.

Keep bending over for your masters in China if you want. I’m sure you’ll get what’s coming to you.

NASA’s average budget now is the same as it was when they worked on the Apollo program. The high peak for designing the first-of-its-kind Saturn V isn’t there, but the average funding is the same. And the Ares V isn’t shit. It was designed by a room full of faceless, unaccountable bureaucrats who hadn’t designed so much as a toilet, let along a rocket. It’s not even good for a first year engineer’s design project, let alone something worthy of the greatest nation on earth.

Oh yeah, that’s what we used to be. I keep forgetting.

hohoho, You are a foolish rumormonger from CPC-owned China. CPC is verry good at making some low-quality imitations of Russia or America for domestic political demand. what you said so-called space project J-20 BMD ASAT are political projects. CPC made all those for conceal demostic crises and contradications. You forget the most important issue that PRC-owed China loses the largest territory and territorial sea in the world.You should feel ashamed to be a Chinese.

Now you got me going! LOL!

The NASA of the 60’s was a HUGELY different place than now. They went from flying the Redstone/Jupiter (a slightly scaled up V-2) to the Saturn V in less than 10 years! The Redstone had about 83,000 lbs of thrust in the first stage and the Saturn V, 7,500,000 lbs of thrust)! Show me a 10 year long, technical development program that increases performance by a factor of two orders of magnitude with today’s enlightened “program management”!

China said the following.

We used to work for them
and now
they work for us.

Lessons learned..

We gave them the technology for free
now they have it
and they are going to out sell us with cheaper products at more afordable prices for the consumer.
This is very dumb!!!!

PATHFINDER22554

Not only is what you say correct, but let me add that this was the first time rockets with that magnitude of thrust had been designed. NASA’s Ares rockets have had all kinds of problems. The useless “stick” design had such a huge pogo stick vibration problem they had to have active dampers to keep the crew alive and a second stage that was bigger than the first because the 5 segment solid would be all burned up by the time the stack cleared the tower — if it cleared the tower and didn’t smack it on the way out. They would have sent Von Braun to help the Soviets if he’d been as big a f’ up.

Good Morning Folks,

I see the old Heritage Foundation propaganda is alive and well still. In todays left wing rag the Wall Street Journal a front page article: “China Bullet Trains Trip on Technology” by James T. Areddy and Norihko Shirouzu.

A quote for the article: “…China’s high speed rail network was in fact built with imported components-including signaling-system parts designed to prevent train collisions-that local engineers couldn’t fully understand…”

The article goes on to say: “Key signaling systems were assembled by Beijing-based Hollysys Automation Technologies Ltd., one of the few companies China’s Ministry of railroads tapped to handle such work. In some cases of the signal system it supplies, technology branded as proprietary Hollysys contained circuitry tailor-made by Hitachi Ltd. of Japan to Hollysys specifications, according to people familiar with the situation.”

“The problem, these people say is that Hitachi-fearful that Chinese technicians night reverse engineer and steal the technology…”

I think this statement says the level of Chinas technology base. The bullet trains are a $300 billion project and the crown jewel of one of the four legs of Chinas 1978 modernizations.

As this China can do stuff is just a wagon full of horse droppings.

I’m still interested in any major US defense platforms or systems that China has reversed engineered and were successful in making operational. This appears to be a question that you butternuts just can answer.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

The Chiness built the Great Wall while Europeans were just discovering how to build a fortress. They are doing what advances technology most effectively. Make Scientist and Engineers priveleged people (as opposed to sport stars and entertainers here) and the technolgy will be developed. Sure the short cut is to get what is already developed and reverse engineer it. This is a great learning tool for their engineers. Progressing as they are they will be on a par with military technology with the USA within a few decades at most. The profit taking of corporations simply expidite the advance. We live in a world too interconnented for technology to remain held secret. It brings intelligent people to realize we have in essence let the genie out of the bottle. Unless the genie is directed by a moral person all hell can be unleashed. .

LOL! Von Braun would have spent the last two years of WWII on the Eastern Front! You are forgetting that for quite a while he had one of the least forgiving bosses the world has ever seen!

You will hear all of the BS about the moon landing being a national project, having a dead president behind it, and all the rest, but.… the path from a Redstone that barely exceeded the capability of a V-2, to a Saturn V had at least as many technical “wickets” to get through as an “evolutionary” airplane or ship program and those “low risk” , “low challenge”, “easy to do” developmental programs that take 20+ years! The Saturn V, which not only increased thrust by 100, but also changed fuels, changed from a single nozzle to five, and was the biggest baddest rocket the world had ever seen, actually took less than 10 years! WHY!

And dont tell me that they managed BECAUSE they used slide rules and did not have those great labor saving computers we have today! LOL!

It’s about time military technology jobs go to China, everything else has already!

Please pay attention to reply levels.

We can all go ostrich and believe the emperor is clothed i guess, but it is starting to sound hitleresque since i am non-affiliated (just a concerned Patriot) — kinda like, turn in your weapons, we’ll pound ‘em into plowshares and become the greatest agricultural nation on the planet. ‘Cept, they were pounded into bigger guns, and the rest is history.

Our military, instead of being the policeman for NATO/UN, should remain in a position to project all the power we’ll ever need — and then some. The two-theater pier-opponent strategy would seem to better serve our purposes vs. being in a state of denial for political expediency in regards to the ever-expanding influence of our largest investor?

Put this in the martini and see how it tastes. Just suppose, they (as the ruskies did ) feign weakness, so as to allow US to lower our guard so they can smash US with their clenched fist. Ever play poker? Sometimes a bluff isn’t.

Good Evening Folks,

You butternuts just don’t get it. You are locked into you comic book views that you can’t see reality.

The bullet trains are the biggest project that China has ever attempted and national prestige is on the line. This project cost more then a decade of China’s defense spending and they blew it.

China need to compare themselves with with the rest of the world. They were comparing the superiority of their rail system to Europe and Japan, don’t worry about the US we don’t have anything close.

The reason China went to great expense of building an aircraft carrier is not because of the United States, they saw that of the permanent members of the UN Security council they were the only ones with out an aircraft carrier (the Russians current lack of one make no difference they have had one in the past).

History means nothing, what Germany did with rockets means nothing although it appears that the work of Robert Goddard seems to forgotten.

The failure of the four modernizations could present a serious challenge to both the secular government of China and the CCP. Don’t be surprised to see political fracturing with in the PRC.

ALLONS,

Byron Skinner

Let’s just say the commies will stick together. As for China, the cyber war has been on for years, the trade war is just heating up, and the commies (frr/prc) have had us in check, or in stalemate in many ways since WWII. When the Muslim — Zionist fight hits the fan, sides will be taken and I’m pretty sure the prc isn’t coming to the aid of the Zions, but you know we will.

After reading the article and going through the comments, I feel I’ve never been more proud to be a Chinese citizen.

The amount of anger, fear, and willful ignorance I observe here is ample proof that my people, and my government, are on the right track — as a Chinese proverb says, the mediocre attracts no jealousy.

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