Navy eyes extended SSN deployments

Navy eyes extended SSN deployments

Waste, delays, cancellations, drama, heartache — does DoD do anything right in the world of acquisitions? In the eyes of many people, yes: The Virginia-class fast-attack submarine is considered to be a rare bright spot of efficiency and economy. The boats arrive on or ahead of schedule, and on cost, and although the Navy has made some sacrifices of its own to get to that point, service officials are very proud of the program.

But even at a planned rate of two new Virginia-class boats per year, the Navy can’t add enough attack boats to take up the extra work now borne by its current fleet. As AP’s Michael Melia wrote, the sea service may ask its silent service to plan for attack sub cruises that last an extra month — seven, up from six — to accommodate all the missions at hand.

Wrote Melia:


Extending deployments permanently would save resources because the Navy could complete more missions with the nuclear-powered submarines that it has available. The fast-attack subs travel to far-flung corners of the globe for missions including intelligence gathering and firing missiles, but they can maintain a presence only for so long before making the time-consuming journey back to U.S. bases.

Navy contractors began stepping up submarine production this year, but pressure on the defense budget has raised uncertainty about future procurement. While some critics describe the multibillion-dollar vessels as costly relics of a different era, Richardson says submarines remain integral to America’s nuclear deterrence strategy and the security of a nation that conducts the vast majority of its trade by maritime channels.

He continues:

Beyond the strain on sailors and their families, U.S. Rep. Joe Courtney said, the longer deployments reflect an increasingly acute security problem. Although Navy contractors received approval this year to double production of Virginia-class attack subs to two a year, he said that will only slow the decline in the size of the fleet and will not fully replace older ships as they are taken out of commission.

The number of nuclear-powered attack submarines in the U.S. force has fallen from a peak of 98 in the late 1980s to 53 at the end of fiscal year 2010, a decline that roughly matches a drop in the overall size of the Navy since the end of the Cold War. Each Virginia-class attack submarine costs about $2.6 billion and carries a crew of roughly 135 officers and sailors.

Courtney, who is pushing for an increase in attack sub procurement, said they are unmatched in their ability to deliver firepower and do surveillance without being detected.

“Look at Libya. When President Obama said ‘unique capabilities,’ what he was really referring to was the USS Scranton, the Providence and the Florida, which in a matter of an hour obliterated Gadhafi’s air defenses,” said Courtney, a Democrat whose eastern Connecticut district includes the sub base and the Groton headquarters of the Navy’s primary submarine contractor, General Dynamics’ Electric Boat.

Currently, the submarine force can accommodate only about half the support requests from combatant commanders, according to [Vice Adm. John] Richardson, who said sub deployments are currently extended a month or more to meet demands on a case-by-case basis. He noted that surface ships also face extended deployments, as all branches of the military contend with increased demands.

Depressing — even the Navy’s most successful shipbuilding effort isn’t enough to make ends meet, given today’s high operational tempo. This is the sort of thing for which the long-sought grand strategy might be helpful: If the Pentagon decided to make some of the much-discussed “tough choices” among the things that are “on the table,” maybe officials could find ways to reduce the demand on ships and their crews. Or maybe DoD could elect to free up the cash to build the number of submarines it needs.

What do you think?

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Have they considered trading off one or two costly CVBGs (escorts and airwings included) to beef up the sub force? Have they considered that the current deployment schedule may be excessive or a carry over from the days of cold war optempo? Honestly, the Navy (and all of DOD for that matter) have to confront fiscal reality: we can not police the world anymore. I know the Navy: 7 month deployments will grow into 8 or 9 months. DOD has lots of smart people working for it. Come up with a plan. We have a lot of resources invested in the sub force; don’t give sailors a reason to punch out. Are we trying to do too much?

Either way we’re screwed..reduce the demand and we run the risk of missing inportant intel, plus less at sea / underway time. And, if we lengthen deployments we could loose some good Sailors due to even more “burnout”…not to mention the extra wear and tear on already tired ships that are (and will continue) to lack the neccessary funding for MRO.

I just hope that the DoD takes the “strategy” review seriously and budgets the correct priorities. What’s the point of the Navy putting all it’s eggs in the aircraft carrier basket? It will cost over $12 Billion to purchase an aircraft carrier and the air wing. For that, they could purchase about 5 Virginia SSN’s or 5 Burke DDG’s, or some mix. In my opinion, a battle group of SSNs and DDGs is better than one aircraft carrier.

We could get around some of this buy purchasing conventional subs from Sweeden or Germany and outfitting them with our own electronics, sensors and weapons. SS boats can get in closer and are quieter and dont need to charge batteries on a daily ritual like the old fleet boats everyone thinks of. They could easily take over a lot of these missions, can be built faster than nukes at a big savings and with no reactor can pull into more ports for supplies enabling them to stay deployed away from home port. Having our own SS boats was also a valuable tool in training nuke boats on how to track them.

“Have they considered trading off one or two costly CVBGs (escorts and airwings included) to beef up the sub force?”

Yes

Incorrect. We’d need additional ships and additional bases to support forward-deployed SSKs, which would add to material and manpower costs. The “closer and quieter” line is a marketing ploy by the European yards that sell conventional subs, not reality. And unless the shipbuilding budget is increased, every SSK is taking money out of the SSN budget, so the loss of capability is compounded.

Said better than by me: http://​tachesdhuile​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​0​6​/​d​o​e​s​-​us-…

Sorry fella but I spent many a year and many a patrol on both US conventional and nukes, conventionals can get closer and operate much shallower than nukes, the decoming of the grayback left a void that no dds nuke can fill for putting specwar into a country from shallow water, Conventional subs are more than capeable of transoceanic patrols just as the old fleet boats did out of groton and san diego during WWII. Myself and many would forego another nuke for 4 to 6 conventionals, nukes pull into a lot of ports during those 6 month deployments to reload supplies so a conventional doing it takes nothing away. On another issue they could also start blue/gold for the DDS converted 688’s 4on 4off with 30 day upkeep to keep them more maintained and at sea more with less crew stress, as well as extend SSBN’s for 1 month on/off to cover intel gathering after they come off deterent station. I have deployed on many allied SS boats because they could go places nuke boats cant, and they are very useful for sub hunting in choke points that nukes cant due to depth and speed limitations.

CONTINUED: as the first flight and older vls boats are being decomed for the new VA boats the crews from the decoms could be transfered in whole to one of the DDS 88’s to form the 2 crew concept. In reality they could do it with any boat class — I just chose the DDS boats to keep them more avail for specwar ops as well.

A better Solution is to continued the build of two SSNs peer Year but at same time to kill the entire LCS Program to buy with this money SSK from Germany. But exactly what you not have to do is to buy SSK with money from the SSN Budget or to make the epic mistake to declare SSKs as comperable with SSNs. It is right what SSKs are for some mission better them a SSN but they have also massive disadvantages in compare with SSN in critical areas like the speed and operational range and also in there size of there arming. As consequence a SSK can be only a supplement for the SSN and never a replacement for them, them you buy SSKs you will though continued to need a SSN Fleet of more them 48 Boots but the SSKs can be a cheap and meaningful supplement for the Navy in compare with idiotic ships like the LCS but this also how long you buy them from foreign countries and make the mistake to developed a own SSK.

Probably we need other developing aliied countries like Philippines, Singapore and Australia to develop this for us, it could be pennies on the dollar after overall cost. Considering the material, middleman, labor cost and their defenses boost we don’t need to be part of. They only need design and manufacturing supervisions.

News flash — EVERYBODY is stretched thin. That’s what happens when you keep a high tempo for a decade+ and at the same time go on a procurement holiday because you foolishly think there’s such a thing as a “peace dividend”.

Not too bad. Canada has 4 subs total. How many are deployable at this time? ZERO. Scary, considering Canada has the longest coastline in the world.

Grayback=diesel sub?

What’s the range on those? Do we have forward sub bases where they could be regionally stationed/supplied/maintained?

Well we really didn’t go on a procurement holiday considering all the projects in development during the 90s and early 00’s. The problem is most of that was flushed on RMA style, future weapons that could never deliver on promises. They did keep the contractors exceptionally happy though.

Actually there was a procurement holiday. Many programs were cancelled and those that weren’t had the EMD phase stretched out so the government could pay less per year on R&D while not actually procuring anything.

We could at Guam, in Japan, perhaps some of the other Pacific holdings we have. It depends on what steps the Chinese take in determining how welcome we would be in allied ports. The problem is are we trying to win a war or are we looking to have a force in place to counter the Chinese on the high seas? If there isn’t some overt act by China that leads to conflict and we end up simply having to be able to counter them on the high seas, if we put too many resources into diesels we will be stuck with boats that can’t keep up with Chinese naval task forces on the deep blue sea. Diesels are great as trip wires and sneaking around in the littorals but they aren’t an option for shadowing task forces back and forth across the Indian Ocean, potentially for months at a time. I think a better idea would be to put naval funding in the right places and step up SSN production and tie the SSBNx to a dual use development including a SSGN variant.

Well Canada has Oberon class SS boats that while good are old school technology and they mainly use them for training thier surface fleet and ASW aircraft. Modern SS boats can run just as fast underwater as nuke boats (because nuke boats become blind if they go too fast) you would not need any overseas basing to foward deploy the SS boats they can operate just fine from Diego — groton — Bangor — and Hawaii stoping overseas occasionaly for new supplies just as our nuke fleet does on deployments. the sweed and german boats have 21″ torpedo tubes so they can fire MK48 torpedos, harpoon & tomahawks like a nuke boat or deploy MK67 mines as well. SUrface fleets take off and leave nuke boats behind all the time because submerged speed is limited by sonar which is why subs are stationed in multiple overlapping locations. The SS boats would be good for coastal survelience and specwar insertion or close in shallow water attacks while the nuke boats patrol the open ocean. And I agree with cancelling all the LCS and putting it into more nuke subs and a lot of ss subs along with destroyer upgrades.

Well They did do away with DADT.….……those long, long mission.…better load up on the vasoline!

Doing away with LCS is an option but since we’ve contracted for 20 already I don’t know realistically if that would happen. We could switch to some other frigate/corvette option that costs less and roll the savings into SSK purchases. Of course we could also explore savings in some other ship purchases.

Good idea –However, it will go in that circular file —-

We need to deploy the small to middium size fast attack subs in New Jersey and around the sea shore borders around 200 nautical miles from our (USA) land. We Iran, Russia Cuba, Valenzuela as a old threat we need these defense tools in addition to the air and land defenses.

We need to deploy the small to middium size fast attack subs in New Jersey and around the sea shore borders around 200 nautical miles from our (USA) land. With Iran, North Korea, China, Russia Cuba, Valenzuela as the old threats we need these defense tools in addition to the air and land defenses.

Actually Canada has 4 ex Upholder class submarines, the Oberon class was retired years ago. What Canada really needs is 8 or so Astute class.

Sub tender boats… a couple of mothballed Landing Ship Docks would house a relief crew and suffient spares and supplies. instead of sailing the sub back to base, sail the tender out to a point close enough to cut all the return-to-base time off the deployment, but far enough from the Ops Zone that the opposition can’t work out where they are deployed just from where they surface and resupply/recrew. It would be a lot faster to fly crews to nearby ports and helo them to the tender than to sail the crews back and forth in the subs. so for same deployment lengths in manhour terms, longer times on station can be achived.

Canada’s Oberons are history. Canada has 4 newer ex-British Upholder Class (now Victoria Class) SSK’s. None at at sea at this time.

Wala ka pa ngang capable Attack OPV and destroyer plano ka na naman ng Submarine, unahin muna ang Destroyer or Frigate; ang hirap nitong mga military sa atin pag sa plano ang yabang pero pag sa bilihin ang poor, unahin nyo yong FFG-7 na dalawa at sundan pa ng isang FFG.37 at isang FFG– 32 yan pag na mobilize na yan then plan for submarine, e wala ka ngang mga capable destroyer tapos submarine agad puro bobo talaga tong mga taga AFP,
Oliver hazard perry class ang sagot problema sa maritime border natin, hindi ang submarine. kung binili na noon pa yong USS george philips at ang sister ship nito di wala ng bully ng chinese sa spratly kahit yong Vietnam na karatig ay andap din,alging sinsabi walang pondo pero kung sa kanilang mga wife mag bakasyon may pondo, yong mga retired gneral di pagolf course kunin ang budget na yan at ibili agad ng perry class frigate. after you all destroyer and frigate ok purchase ng sub. di tapos na ang yong plano. wala pa ngang isa doon ka na sa pangatlo.

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