‘It’s no longer our army. It hasn’t been for years.’

‘It’s no longer our army. It hasn’t been for years.’

Back in the summer, Tom Ricks linked to what sounded like a very interesting article in the American Academy of Arts and Sciences journal Daedalus. Andrew Bacevich was trying to wrap his arms around one of the thorniest, but most important, issues of our day: The civil-military divide. The full story is behind a pay wall, but here was the excerpt on Ricks’ blog:

‘We the People’ need to understand: it’s not longer our army; it hasn’t been for years; it’s theirs and they intend to keep it. The American military belongs to Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright, to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, to Hilary Clinton and Robert Gates. Civilian leaders will continue to employ the military as they see fit. If Americans do not like the way the army is used, they should reclaim it, resuscitating the tradition of the citizen-soldier and reasserting the connection between citizenship and military service. … [A]s long at the tradition of the citizen-soldier remains moribund, reversing the militarization of U.S. foreign policy will be a pipe dream.

It wouldn’t be fair to comment more on Bacevich’s specific article without access to the full text, but from the snippets available online, parts of his thesis sound highly compelling. Since Vietnam, both deliberately and accidentally, the Pentagon has drawn away from main street (for lack of a better cliche) which has given it the ability to act more freely, with less public accountability. A downsized, all-volunteer force requires fewer sacrifices from fewer Americans than ever, and has created what Robert Kaplan calls a separate ‘warrior caste’ in American society. Fast-forward to today’s force, in which the least Americans serve than ever before, and in which many of today’s service members are likely to be the children or younger siblings of other service members.


All this has been rattling around in my head since July, and two things this week brought it rushing back: First was Tuesday’s testimony by retired Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, former head of the National Guard Bureau. Blum told the House Armed Services Committee that his biggest fear for the U.S. in the 21st century isn’t China or cyber-attacks, but “complacency.”

In this dangerous and unpredictable world, a relatively tiny number of service members and their families bear a hugely disproportionate share of the load for defending the country, Blum said. “I don’t want Americans to view the military as a foreign legion, or a mercenary unit … What they do behind those gates is pretty much ‘who cares?’ to the general population.” We’ve got to make sure, Blum said, that Americans are in the fight.

The second thing was a story Wednesday morning by AP’s Bob Burns, which reported that one of every three veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan didn’t consider the wars worth fighting. Burns also wrote this:

The poll results presented by the Pew Research Center portray post-9/11 veterans as proud of their work, scarred by warfare and convinced that the American public has little understanding of the problems that wartime service has created for military members and their families … [It] reflected what many view as a troublesome cultural gap between the military and the general public. Although numerous polls have shown that Americans hold the military in high regard, the respondents in the Pew research acknowledged a lack of understanding of what military life entails. Only 27 percent of adult civilians said the public understands the problems facing those in uniform, and the share of veterans who said so is even lower — 21 percent.

Despite all this, the Pentagon leadership loves its all-volunteer force and hates the idea of a draft. It has a strong memory of the last time the burdens of war were borne somewhat more “equally” across the population: During Vietnam, which was a nightmare no one in uniform or elected office would bring back. Because despite the complaints by today’s thinkers and troops, there’s a downside when the general public is “connected” to the war effort – it might oppose it. Today many Americans say they want to wrap up the war in Afghanistan, but there are no mass demonstrations and no real pressure for Washington to take any action.

What the Pentagon specifically and Washington generally learned from Vietnam is the more isolated it is from main street, the more freedom of action it has. As Bacevich implies, presidents with an ever-smaller, professional, all-volunteer force could use it to settle scores, prove points and knock down tin-pot bad guys because the Pride Was Back and it was Morning in America. So long as Americans weren’t in danger of being called up to serve in these various adventures, many of them didn’t really care – and as we learn from Blum and Burns, this has lasted right up until today.

But it’s important to note that many Americans don’t really care about anything — complaining about American disengagement is like complaining about the weather, and it does as much good. Voter turnout, a reliable barometer of citizen interest, was about 37.8 percent in last year’s mid-terms, according to the Federal Elections Commission. As important as they are, commanders and service members shouldn’t take it personally that many of their countrymen are tuned out.

Still, if the Pentagon was content being isolated before, it has great reasons for wanting to break through now: Thousands of Americans are dead and tens of thousands are wounded. Service members and their families have endured years’ worth of grueling deployments; many of them struggle with depression, addiction and even suicide. Some $4 trillion is gone. After decades of satisfied isolation and independence, now the military wants to engage with the general public, if for no reason than just to make it understand the true cost of American power.

The reason this is so complicated is that Americans say they do understand – you can’t get through a baseball game without a standing ovation for some returning troops, or watch TV without seeing a sentimental homecoming in a beer commercial. “Thank you for your service.” When the football commentator says his program is being shown on AFN, everyone in the booth has to go on record trying to out-do each other with their thanks for the troops. There’s always an uneasiness about all this, though, isn’t there? As if all the celebrities and TV personalities need to jump onto the bandwagon because they and their audiences – many of us – are being reminded, however briefly, that we sent others into harm’s way while we did what we wanted.

Here we some to the crux of the problem: How can the popular perception of the military be so positive, and the pop culture warmth shown to service members be so universal – and yet only 21 percent of new veterans believe Americans actually get it? Service members and their families appreciate all the sentiment, but they clearly aren’t buying it.

One reason Americans may be so disconnected is they haven’t been asked to “sacrifice” for the troops and the wars in the way they used to – by paying for them. Washington financed much of its last decade with borrowed money, not with new taxes or even war bonds, and now faces the Big Crunch still deeply reluctant to ask voters to pay more. But there is a growing chorus of military voices in Washington that believes that today’s high-quality, veteran military is worth the cost to maintain no matter what, and if that means more taxes, so be it.

None other than HASC chairman Rep. Buck McKeon, in a bizzaro-world moment for a modern Republican, has said that if his back is to the wall and he has to choose between deep military cuts and new taxes, he’d opt for the taxes. Retired Gen. Richard Cody, the former vice chief of staff of the Army, gave the same message to the HASC on Tuesday.

“We have to realize this a terribly unfriendly world,” he said in response to questions from ranking Democrat Rep. Adam Smith. “If we have to tax more, I’m all for taxing everybody.”

There’s no telling whether this kind of movement will gather steam, but based on the lukewarm reception to President Obama’s proposed new taxes on the wealthiest Americans, you probably shouldn’t hold your breath. But would asking Americans to sacrifice more, in the ways they can, bring them closer to the military? Could anything do that in our disconnected cyber-age?

What do you think?

Join the Conversation

The only people not sacrificing in America are the wealthy. Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there aren’t any wealthy or decendents of wealthy in the military. The middle class has been outsourced to 3rd world countries by the wealthy. And all they have to do is send more money to politicians to pay them off (Perry received $17M in one month!).

Yet we can’t find the money to make sure our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines coming back from MULTIPLE tours of combat are taken care of. Instead we put more of a burden on their shoulders and then say oh well.

This isn’t going to change until we force our government to change.

I would love to bring back the draft for no other reason than to share that burden (without being able to skip to go to college). And the article is right, Iraq would never have happened if there were a draft.

Draft won’t work, politically or fiscally. Few of us (very, very few) who lived through the 60s want to see it return. The U.S. public’s “disconnect” with its armed forces is not a new phenomenon nor unique to the U.S. I would be willing to bet that most or all countries that have/had a volunteer army could share similar experiences. I recall the predictions of doom for the VOLAR back in the 70s, none of which has panned out. The all volunteer force has proven to be quite successful, albeit extremely costly. In my opinion its is those costs that should be the focus of the debate, not lamenting the public’s “disengagement”. We need a coherent strategy and a consensus of what constitutes a threat to the “national interest”, not some talking head or political hack blubbering about on TV about the “Chinese threat”.

The high regard most citizens feel for members of the armed forces in the United States is genuine, the obverse of the contempt in which most of the elected officials are held.

Maybe we should go back to the constitution (Article 1, Section 8, Congress shall have the power “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;” instead of letting the Commander in Chief usurp that authority.

Robert Goldich wrote an excellent piece, “American Military Culture from Colony to Empire”, that points out the same disconnect between civilian society and military culture. We are in danger of becoming the “legionaires” of the free world with what the warrior’s believe is a higher standard of behavior than comtemporary society. Many view themselves and their Army as better than the general population and there is an inherent danger in that line of thinking. I am a 32 year veteran and have seen this devide coming for some time.

Very interesting article! I would offer up that in WW-II a lot of the rationing was instituted (or at least maintained) to intentionally focus the US civilian population on “their contribution to the war”. Whatever the case, it worked! :-)

Also, to a degree, the tie between the civilian population and the military was sacrificed with the demise of the draft and the institution of the “professional, volunteer military”.

Some countries still have the idea that public service is a prerequisite for full citizenship. Heinlein, in the juvenile novel “Starship Troopers” promoted the idea that one had to serve in order to vote or hold office. Think about it for a while… with such a policy (and something like the WPA or CCC on a military-like pay scale for the honest “COs”), we could get a LOT of things done in this country that need doing. Public works could be financed on the cheap (like the 1930s power dams and bridges), and the voters would have a deeper respect for their franchise. AND the military would be re-integrated into society!

I work with and personally know a number of veterans. I deeply respect their service and appreciate their sacrifice…but, honestly, no I don’t “get it”. I have no real clue what that sacrifice is like. And there’s something wrong with that.

Maybe we need to require that Congress include payment any time they authorize the use of force, it seems to me that if I don’t think the cause behind a particular war is important enough to pay higher taxes to fund it then it certainly isn’t important enough to ask _someone else_ to die for it.

Contrary to “The rich don’t serve” I will offer that depends on what you call “rich”. I agree that the kids of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet don’t serve but there are lots of people who are Upper Middle Class and above who do serve. One guy who I served with as a junior officer was the son of the President of Lear Jet. Another was the son of an executive board member of AT&T. It’s been widely reported that John McCain is wealthy, two of his sons are currently serving, (one as an enlisted Marine). The Bidens are reportedly well off and Vice President Biden’s son was deployed a couple of years ago. My wife and I are upper middle class income wise and we have a son who is currently serving in the submarine force.

CORRECTION: The Bacevich article, and a dozen other excellent pieces, actually appears in Daedalus, the journal of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. (MIT Press publishes the journal for the Academy.)

The volume, titled “The Modern American Military,” explores a wide range of topics by a number of scholars and military experts. Details about the volume are available at: http://​www​.amacad​.org/​p​u​b​l​i​c​a​t​i​o​n​s​/​d​a​e​d​a​l​u​s​/​1​1​_su…

Maybe we should cut entitlement spending to pay for overseas operations…yeah, that will go down well. But how about high-speed trains to nowhere, green energy subsidies, ethanol subsidies, ObamaCare (hey, there’s a trillion!), etc. etc.

But perhaps more to the point, we need to define what our national treasure (read: taxes) should be spent on, and what the priorities should be. But that might require a broader engagement by U.S. citizens in the political process, something Mr. Ewing has already pointed out is problematic. And that may point out an even more fundamental problem: People don’t believe it’s their government anymore — and that might be their own fault.

Like children, they look to government for “solutions” that it cannot provide, and in return become merely a source of funds for someone else’s dysfunctional “vision” — such as the establishment of a peaceful democratic government in places such as Afghanistan or Iraq or a “free lunch” national health insurance plan that promises to reduce the deficit.

Thank you for the correction — my mistake and the post has been updated with a link to reflect the change.

In response to your first point, read this article about who actually serves in the military. It will clear up some misconceptions. http://​online​.wsj​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​S​B​1​0​0​0​1​4​2​4​0​5​3​1​1​1​903…

The public may have high regard for the military, but I wonder how many have no idea what it is they are regarding. Since 9/12/01, politicians, commentators, celebrities, and some overzealous neighbors have stepped all over each other to “support the troops.” Most of them have no clue what goes on in military life, what’s actually happening in the wars, or give a damn besides flying a flag and saying “America, F*ck yeah.” Most of the people I’ve come across that know what they’re talking about are former and currently serving troops and their families. I’ve personally witnessed plenty of people who “support the troops” but wouldn’t pay a dime extra for the wars or advocate for their family members to serve.

You say we shouldn’t lament the public’s “disengagement” but should clearly define what our threats are. We don’t have a clear strategy in part because the public doesn’t know or care to know what’s going on out there in enough numbers to change anything. You said the public holds most elected officials in contempt, yet they keep reelecting them (the ones who bother to vote).

I like the idea of earning your full citizenship in a meaningful way

Maybe a national Defense sales Tax. That way everyone would see what it cost on every transaction. On base purchases and all deployed personnel would be exempt. This way the congress would know just how muchit could spend each year and would not rob the defense budget to pay for their pet programs.

Utter partisan political hyperbole… and not true. Other than military families very few people in the general population have sacrificed anything in either of these wars. I haven’t seen the first rationing of food or material nor the skyrocketing prices of goods due directly to the conflict. The military is rife with children of extrememly wealthy people and poiticians. Your post is all over the place bouncing from talking point to talking point but the general theme of “the poor go off to die” hasn’t been true for a couple decades… not since the last draft.

Gifts, no matter now valuable, are very rarely appreciated as much as those things you have earned. :-) I cant help but think about the elections where far less than 50% of the elegible voters even bother! Who knows, a “proud and participative” electorate might just make it a whole lot more difficult for the politicians! (and can that be a bad thing?)

It would also, I think, solve some of our immigration issues as well. Just as with the French, serve in the Foreign Legion and become a Frenchman! No questions asked! LOL!

This article speficially mentioned the wealthy, their power to manipulate, and their lack of participation in the sacrifices of this Country. All of which are true. That is what I addressed, not the problems of social entitlements because that wasn’t addressed in this article.

More to my non partisan point: The MIDDLE CLASS is shouldering the burden just as we always do, even the very partisan Heritage Foundations report indicates that. 25% of 18–24 year olds from middle class familes serve this Country. That percentage is SIGNIFICANTLY lower for poor but the same lower percentage as the wealthy.

Throwing out a couple of names does not make a broad statement made by me false. There is no doubt in my mind who is sacrificing for this Country in both blood and treasure.

Considering that Ricks posted his on his FP blog back in July, one wonders…but just to clear things up here. MIT Press has a six month wait time until it release Daedalus articles into the public domain for free. Otherwise, you end up paying 12 bucks a pop to read one of their articles, or go to your local college library. That said, and not having had the chance to read the whole thing…it just isn’t clear to me how a smaller miltary and a citizen militia go together. In times past, I’ve advocated a draft into the reserves, but the hassle of trying to make people who don’t want to be there into productive servicemen and women doesn’t seem very attractive. At the same time, for some communities within the US, the military offers a way up — and a way out. The more technologically advanced our military is, the more the nation benefits economically from people who serve 5–10, even 20 years, and then go on to something else. Bacevich seems to want to return to the days of From Here to Eternity, by making service in the regular military as brutal, unrewarding, boring and futile as possible. Not a very enlightened position for a cavalryman to take.

Make overseas contingency operations part of the pay as you go funding? Have a surcharge or tax passed right alongside Congressional military authorization?

This might be a good approach for getting a handle on the entire federal budget. After all SS/medicare have a separate funding stream through FICA, why not national defense/fed law enforcement/intel services? They are after all mentioned in the first sentences of the constitution. Some sort of graduated fixed # not subject to deductions or credits or the political whims of politicians. If you start to separate out the critical functions of govt, provide a separate revenue stream, I would imagine that would really lay bare the pork and make it much harder to get away with. There is a lot of BS that gets rammed through because it gets attached to defense authorization bills.

Those kids are the ones that will be running for office in the near future and they needed that 3 year hitch to put on their resume.

The whole military industrial complex is a bunch of cockroaches loathing the light. They live their lives cloaked in darkness and when something embarrassing happens they classify it to keep it from ever being exposed to the light of public scrutiny. And they get away with it because all the American public wants to know is what’s on the next TV channel. When all they can get is channels that preach Mao’s little red book to them in fluent Chinese, they’ll have got what they have coming to them. Freedom isn’t free. Some pay with their lives, but when most can’t even be counted on to vote or show up at a city council meeting once in a blue moon, then they get the freedom they’ve earned.

Surely there must be other meaningful ways of earning a full citizenship, unless one wants to prevent — say — the handicapped & diabled, or convinced pacifists (like Jehoves Witnesses, and Quakers, to mention just a few religious ones), from voting and holding office.

A friend of mine and I (both veterans, now successful entrepreneurs) were discussing that in the circles we run in (wealthy tech execs) there is still a perception that if your kid ends up in the military they’ve failed somehow. People are surprised that we’re veterans and proud of it. I think to some extant there is danger that the only people that encourage the next generation to serve are prior service.

That aside, I am quite happy with a volunteer service and not overly concerned that civilians don’t entirely “get it”.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with you not getting that sacrifice. You don’t get the sacrifice of cops, firemen, teachers, priests or many other roles that are critical to functioning society but are poorly paid and unglamorous.

I think it’s OK for people to have a vague understanding that they need to support things without fully living it. That’s how society works.

I think it is true. If you fall under the UCMJ you are held to a higher standard and it needs to be that way.

Priests, teachers, cops and others are held to higher standards in their roles in society and there is good reason.

In the novel there were other ways, just as in Germany you don’t have to serve in the military but you have to serve in some capacity. A German friend of mine worked in a government run retirment home cleaning bedpans instead of military for his service.

Really DC2?
My father served 43 Years, I served 31 years and my son has already served for 5. Do you really want to tell ME who is sacrificing in blood and treasure? You really don’t want to go there.
Statistics are funny things, you can pick and choose among them to make your point whatever the point is that you want to make.

I don’t know much about the Bidens but considering the McCain’s family service tradition, I’d venture that its not “3 and out”. Actually, the one who served with my son will definitely put at least 8 in but I think its more likely that he’ll do 20 or more like his father, grandfather, and great grandfather

I think every American should be required to serve their country once they turn 18, whether it’s in a military capacity or in some sort of a civilian service corp. This would reconnect people with the concept of citizenship which requires service and sacrifice. After reaching 18 the free ride should be over. This should be a minimum 2 year commitment and it should create training and job skills as well as an expanded and well funded medical care system along with the VA. People should be trained and serve in job that are vital to the nation’s infrastructure where someone must be on-the-job 24/7, which are often high stress and high turnover jobs.

Jennings — you singled out the rich. Your words, “The only people not sacrificing in America are the wealthy”. Later you say the poorest and the wealthiest serve in the same percentage (actually the rich serve a “little” more) but you still single out the rich for your disdain and I suspect envy.

You may not like the “partisan” label but “if it quacks like a duck”?

BTW, 20+ year vet from a ghetto in Brooklyn.

Mr Ewing — It’s tough taking your writing seriously when you use the $4tril cost figure for this war. A standard of measure never used before is applied to this war and is as loaded a concept with partisan politics as the jobs “created and saved” mantra. I encourage you to ditch it.

I share your interest in the relationship between America and its defenders but American indifference isn’t limited to the military. Every point you made about America’s estrangement from its military can be made for the same lack of interest in our gov’t and we’ve paid a hefty price. Instead of focusing on re-engaging America with its military (worthwhile) let’s focus on a the greater apathy Americans have for its gov’t?

Some universal service ideas would benefit that end as woud term limits to eliminate the professional political class. Just like in the Army, no one should be so essential that the organization would fail without them. That thought pattern is what has created a political class that is MUCM more out of touch with America than the average servicemember. The military may one day become a threat to Americans. Our out of control spending is a clear and present danger.

What do you expect? We have no free press in Iraq or Afghanistan. Its embedded. You do at the beck and call of the commander. At least in Vietnam the crimes and waste was reported. Now, its no big deal, boys will be boys. Only rarely do things get reported, thanks to a courageous enlisted that stood up to the Sec Def about ‘hillbilly armor’, yet this year body armor is NOT tested and the Army thinks that’s just fine, no big deal. With 1:1 contractor / military its nothing but fraud, waste and abuse and guess what trickles down to the GDI grunt in the field? We build permanent bases there with what oversight? No wonder the returning vets think its all a waste. Don’t even ask about the combat losses. That’s the 600 pound gorilla in the room.

Unfortunately, the public indifference to members of the military dates back to our American Revolution. Returning veterans were treated as outcasts and in many instances taken advantage of regarding worthless government script (money) and the theft of their government bounty land..

As an 18 year dual-service disabled veteran of the U.S. Navy and Air Force, I do believe that there is a great divide between those of us who have sacrificed and served honorably and those who have not.

I personally take offense to many of the civilian populace who half-heartedly extend their hand and tell you that they appreciate your service. I look in their eyes and know that the statement is not sincere.

Most of my fellow veterans are of the mind-set that, “only a veteran will take care of a veteran, and only a veteran knows what another veteran has experienced.”

Until we build a bridge to connect the veteran and civilian communities, this divide will continue to broaden.

Ever since we dropped the draft and gone to a all volunteer force the President and congress seem to have no problem starting wars all over the place. The idea seems to be that they asked for the job and being killed or maimed was understood as part of the job at the beginning. One of the worse things this country ever did was drop the draft. The fact that my son in is not in danger of fighting and dying fills the American people with a don’t really care attitude. And it is true that rich kids are not found in foxholes, but then again where they ever? I am a draft dodger and proud of it. When the draft was nipping at my heels I went to my Air Force recruiter (the only LEGAL way to dodge the draft. Of course the rich kids were professional college students.

So as the average family makes no sacrifice they have no interest. And our government have forgotton the African saying “When you ask a man to lay down his life it must be for something of value.”

During the early days of The Vietnam War when most of the draftees were lower to middle class there weren;t any protests,The Protesting began when college deferments were done away with and the upper classes were being drafted.
We don’t need to reinstate the draft but everyone at age 18 should be required to serve at least 2 yrs. of service,it seems to work for European countries.

There is no excuse for keeping a military like this. I want REAL defense for our cities. I don’t call it defense when anyone can just hijack a few planes and turn them into guided missiles with absolutely no opposition whatsoever. Big plane out of radio contact, headed right for a building, and $100,000,000,000 per year can’t do a thing about it. FAIL!!!! $100,000,000,000 per year failure. I would be building an enormous aircraft capable of latching onto any other aircraft or sea vessel while safely neutralizing any weapons, taking control of the vessel or craft, and rescuing any humans in there. For $100,000,000,000 a year, we should have tractor beams and atomic particle transporters by now. FAIL! History tells us that during the last great depression, FDR and his big government policies saved the union, and they did. History also reveals that people eventually corrupt the big government with greed and abused power, winding us up with a ONE-HUNDRED-BILLION DOLLAR PER YEAR FAILURE, instead of an honest economy with honest jobs and enhanced social security for elderly and disabled people. Nice job, americans. Now we have no choice but to revolt against wall street in order to fight for our country properly. The president, who controls the military, is bought and sold by wall street companies, who are destroying our world with this unchecked offensive military, while our families and citizens are UNDEFENDED. Yes, we are undefended. $100,000,000,000 PER YEAR to not even be safe at all. The time has come to fight for your country against wall street, to take apart this military by force if necessary, and start building a real defense for our cities and populated areas. Defense against ANY attack by other humans or by natural disasters. Go.

The real disconnect is between the intellectual class (and would-be intellectuals) and the military establishment. The latter–and especially military culture–seems to be the only remaining segment of the society that gives more than it takes.

A few of many problems with a strictly National Service requirement and draft:

1) Too many at too high a cost at anywhere near current private pay, especially since you would need to include women to be fair
2) Too long a gap between decision to institute draft and involvement in a conflict
3) If you forced folks into the military instead of offering other National, State, or City Service alternatives, you would still face waivers for education and physical fitness…especially with fatter kids today.
4) Still a great disparity between those in “safer” services and those likely to get blown up by IEDs, etc. How do you decide who goes where?

1% of the eligible persons serve this country. Only 1%. That 1% isn’t the sons and daughters of the wealthy (not even the “I think we’re wealthy” crowd). The military is a place for folks with a hard luck story or a brilliant delusion. The Roman republic started its decline when Roman citizens no longer had to be in the Legions. And so, our decline will follow. Perhaps the survey taken at 29 Palms USMC base which disclosed a staggering number of Marines who would fire on U.S. citizens should be a wake up call.

It all started unraveling IMO when Vietnam rolled around.
I saw it close up and personal and it was almost like ‘them and us’
WE did not want that, but that was what it was like. I still remember how
they went out of their way to make life rough if you had the audacity to wear a uniform
into town or drive a squadron car, as I was required to do initially until I told my boss “no more“
I also found it unbelievable how they felt that we just had it made. I mean what could we want.
Wasn’t it all given to us?
I heard this when my father served, 30 years, and when I served.….….…it never changed and
some of it so condescending including remarks from our own family.
To this day I have very little contact with civilian people. Most of my friends are ex military
The mind set of civilians is just too dependent on many things that I find a waste of time.
Basically, the American public is not affected unless they have a personal loss.….….
They mean well in all the clamor to acknowledge etc., but when push comes to shove
it isn’t there.

Unfortunately, the public indifference to members of the military dates back to our American Revolution. Returning veterans were treated as outcasts and in many instances taken advantage of regarding worthless government script (money) and the theft of their government bounty land..

As an 18 year dual-service disabled veteran of the U.S. Navy and Air Force, I do believe that there is a great divide between those of us who have sacrificed and served honorably and those who have not.

I personally take offense to many of the civilian populace who half-heartedly extend their hand and tell you that they appreciate your service. I look in their eyes and know that the statement is not sincere.

Most of my fellow veterans are of the mind-set that, “only a veteran will take care of a veteran, and only a veteran knows what another veteran has experienced.”

Until we build a bridge to connect the veteran and civilian communities, this divide will continue to broaden.

Read more: http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​1​0​/​0​5​/​i​t​s​-​n​o​-​l​o​n​g​e​r-o…
DoDBuzz​.com

However, what if you required some form of National, State, or City/Town/County service for every high school graduate or 18 year old. Pay would be minimum wage for a year with 6 months of military training followed by immediate 6 months of deployment, chosen by scores but placed in service at random. After one year they could choose a border patrol, DEA, prison guard, or state police/fire/rescue job for the remaining year at slightly higher pay and stay in government owned foreclosed housing. Non physically kids never receiving military training could perform:
1) TSA duties
2) Other homeland security
3) Customs inspection duties
4) State or city transportation, highway trash pick-up/mowing
5) City/town/county admin jobs and animal control
6) Emission control inspection

When you get to High School you’ll learn a bit more about Economics, Political Science and History. Best of luck.

@DC2: As an Infantry Vet of RVN..and the “draft” era…nobody could’ve said it better than you have.

I joined voluntarily but never thought the draft a good idea except in times similar to those faced in WWII. In bridging this gap we need to compensate our military folks in ways truly appropriate to the sacrifice and permanent such as a life time tax break, a policy that pays for and reserves seats for qualified veterans in Ivy League schools, free life time healthcare, etc. These things should also be extended in some form to the families also. There are many things that can be done to set our military folks apart as they rightly are. Why should people in uniform be equal to those who don’t serve? While I do not act on the following sentiment I simply do not hold non-military folks in high regard. They’re not exactly a lower life-form to me just not entitled to all the respect they might otherwise have. Now, there are the cases of civilians who’ve done exemplary and self sacrificing things for the betterment of others and people like this I honor and regard highly but the average bobble-head all into their own little lives and stupid little things, sorry, can’t get next to them; they don’t measure up.

Heinlein was absolutely Right!

The public has no idea what the sacrifices are — and doesn’t care. The mercenary army of VOLAR is taking care of things, and the upper class doesn’t have to worry about their sons life plan’s being interrupted by military service. I would abolish VOLAR as well as mercenary “contractors” — let the public see exacrly what the cost is in dollars and lives.

I feel that the only way we are going to stop these expeditionary wars is to get an amendment passed that military service in combat is a requirement for the presidency. Too many draft-dodgers and fakers have occupied the office. You’d have to go back to George Bush Sr. before you found that person.

I truly believe

I cannot disagree with your proposition; there is a certain wisdom to it.

God Help US! I just happen to agree with your remark citizenship should be earned with service. There is a very large portion of the population that would be totally lost if or when their power goes out for 4 days or so. Just look at New Orleans after their little blow. The only people working on their day to day needs were the military. I don’t count people breaking into stores to get new radios or TVs. Breaking into a store for food, water or more ammo I can understand under those limited circumstances. There has got to be a way for the average citizen to have some skin in the game considering a very large portion of the population doesn’t even pay taxes. USAF-SPOI 74/80 and a retired police sergeant.

Liberals are recently floating the “return to the draft” idea because it harkens back to their heydey in the 60’s, when they were able to have meaningful impacts on a war that they havent had since 2001. What liberals should remember is the terrible cost to the liberal reputation, begun with actions during the 60’s, that continues to this day; *thats* the reason everyone falls all over themselves thanking the military when you watch football.

And after your friend finished his service, Id bet that he might have had trouble admitting it, but I suspect that he honestly was proud of having carried through with his duty. And society, or at least that retirement home was a little bit better for him having been there.

The liberals are a bunch of self loathing losers. They know they don’t cut the mustard and it kills them.

I disagree with your class warfare comment. I was born into a wealthy household, enlisted into the Army, and have been enlisted for almost 16 years. Stop the class warfare, and understand we all need to share in this burden of self-defense.

Too easy for them but I do like 4, second half of 5, and all of 6. Good work for people too lazy and selfish to serve.

Move_Forward gave me a great idea; fat kids. Take all the fatties, and there’s a lot of them, and train them up to be lean green fighting machines!

Just a thought but… perhaps pay could be the “equalizer” between the risker jobs and the “safer” service positions. Think of it as the equivalent of “combat pay” that the military option would allow, and the folks cutting hiking trails or running day-care centers would get a significantly lower pay but STILL get their franchise! You could also allow a 3-yr military term and a 4–5 yr non military option. Lots of ways of “equalizing” and also of attracting volunteers to the different options.

As for the “waivers”, what about the Israeli option, i.e. delay but not waive. And perhaps medical issues could make some of the “options” impossible, but not waive the selection of AN option.

Every one is missing the point.…if the “army” is no longer “our army” could mean that the polititians believe they can use “now their army” to put down civilian protest against government excess and violation of the Constitution.…..I trust “our army” will always uphold their oath to protect the US from our enemies from both outside our borders and within our borders.….….it is also important to rememember that an all volunteer army is still made up of dedicated and patriotic US citizens.

You are so right —–In retrospect, how smart were those college kids in the 60’s?? They read through the political bullshit —–But then we have always had 20/20 in the mirror .…

Someone mentioned Germany having folks work in retirement homes which is a good idea. So might be working in emergency rooms after 6 months medical training applied to college credit in nursing. Both would reduce rising health care costs. Veterans with disability assistance is another possibility. The fact that they would live in government owned foreclosures…multiple per house…would help solve that problem.

States, cities, counties would only be eligible for support from service personnel if they reduced their sales tax or property tax by a certain amount and that was replaced by a federal diversion of that tax of the same amount. Otherwise, unions would just jack up their own pay. Cops in Silicon Valley start at $80K, It’s that kind of craziness (and housing prices there) that more imperils our nation than military expenses.

You’re a conceited, pompous twitl, Norwood, and the mindset you display is exactly why “military folks” should never be given more consideration and respect than the productive civilian population whose hard-earned money feeds, clothes, and houses you.

Just take a look at the countries where the members of the military (or the police)are privileged over the people who support them. In every case, you see institutionalized repression and tyranny.

Sorry, but elitist blowhards with stupid little delusions of grandeur like yourself do not measure up IN ANY WAY to the citizen-soldiers who actually answered the call, and made the sacrifices, when their nation was in true peril.

The Military is disconnected in many ways and none more glaring than their double standards on pay and benefits, etc. Who else has penions at 20 years AND significant chunks of income tax free; taxpayer-funded medical care while working; and education benefits accruing as part of your benefits package? The real world of workers gets none of that and maybe, instead of whining that they are not understood, some military might just be glad no one is digging too deeply.

Folks could go in the Guard for 4.5 years after their active 6 months training. The daycare option is another possible job, but it’s also pretty easy to envision pregnancies increasing prior to age 18 to avoid service. Your idea of having to do it later is a possibility. Or they could be required to work in the same daycare where their kids were.

Another possibility is to have some perform contractor-like jobs overseas feeding troops, etc. That would not require physical fitness. Rather than higher than minimum wage pay, other benefits such as reduced GI bill would be an option. Servicemembers electing to continue service for their second year would get more GI bill than those going back home after a 6 month tour overseas or on a ship.

Thank you. I posted some comments that point to same earlier.

I think every American should be required to serve their country once they turn 18,

Maybe it they did, freedom would be more dear to the whiners in particular.……

Seabee — I take a much more charitable view of the citizen. How can we expect them to understand (70% former airborne infantry combat vet here)? It’s really beyond description to many. Even my family doesn’t understand sometimes. I had a cousin invite me to an obstacle course the other day and was a bit surprised when I explained my experience with obstacle courses. LOL, go figure! When told thanks I just thank them for paying their taxes and affording me the tremendous honor and privlege of defending America. I believe it sends the “right” message and gets them thinking.

Agree with the majority of your post though. Vets take care of each other I believe and yes, American has shown an almost historic indifference or distatste to its military. Frontier soldiers were expected to spend but not party in the communities they were stationed close to or charged to protect. That force was also completely volunteer. Many forget our history or were never taught it.

How much you need to learn.

YES ‘use’ is the correct word.
Our founding fathers warned about becoming involved in foreign intrigue. We have failed to
heed the warning over and over again and paid in blood and $$$$$$$.

Having served in SOCOM, I am well aware of the “elitist” attitude of the military but magnified by 10 for Special Operations troops. It is a very difficult attitude to overcome but overcoming it is a must. Otherwise, the next step from “I am better than them” to “They should be my servants” or “They should be treated as inferior or sub-human” is just too easy to take. Even casual study of Hitler’s rise to power shows how masterfully he step-by-step, trained the German people to believe his propaganda and support his policies. In the summer of 1933, not one German thought they would be stuffing fellow human beings in ovens and making lampshades out of their skins. Don’t think it can’t happen in the US…because it can…and in some respects, it has already started. The vast majority of people in this country do respect the military and law enforcement. However, when the troops and LEO’s start acting in superior fashion or abusing their position and breaking the law with impunity, that respect evaporates quickly.

Servicemen tend to forget that THEIR families and friends are just “civilians” to some other serviceman or LEO. Take note. It is my belief that in the near future, many of America’s servicemen and Law Enforcement Officers will be asked by their respective Governments to commit acts upon the US population that are blatantly un-Constitutional, immoral, and downright criminal. It’s happened already and almost nobody blinked an eye as the media propaganda machine has refined their art of lies and deception. I only ask this of you members of the Armed Forces and the Law Enforcement community.….You took an oath to uphold the Law and to defend the Rights of others as demanded by the Constitution. Stay true to that oath. Defend your honor, your word, and this country from those that would destroy it with subversive politics. You have the right and obligation to refuse an unlawful order. You are honorable men and women. You know when you are being told to do something that isn’t right. True courage and bravery isn’t following the crowd along an errant path. Doing what is right by our most basic of laws concerning human decency is what matters. You people are what matters. How you react to the upcoming tribulations that our society will face will steer the course of this Nation for generations. Will Americans be proud to say they brought their country back from the brink and preserved the Nation or will be look back in horror at our inhumanity to each other and our ability to inflict cruelty and misery on our own countrymen because we were to sheepish and cowardly to stop it?

Remember, the life you save may be your own or that of a loved one.

Count me as one of those who believe that “Americans don’t get it!” And I include all those elected officials who utter the words “thank you for your service” as if they were saying “gusundheit” after you sneezed. Only those who serve and their families can really appreciate what the impact of military service is on the military member and his/her dependents. If civilians really appreciated our worth they wouldn’t be talking about replacing military pension plans with 401Ks, or requiring retired military personnel to pay premiums for Tricare for Life. You old timers might remember when you were promised “free medical benefits for life for you and your dependents” if you stayed in for 20. So much for government promises. Perhaps the next war will be out-sourced because no American wants to fight in it! Don’t believe me? Watch how soon America forgets our latest crop of veterans once we’re out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Along these lines, 375Ranger, I have never heard a single active duty general or admiral with the courage to stand up for the Constitution and tell them and the public that the war in Iraq was not just a mistake but morally and legally wrong. What does that say? Troubled times are coming.

George Orwell was a few years ahead of his time. Big Brother is here (U.S. government intrusion into our personal lives, thanks to the Internet and all forms of electronic banking and retailing). War is Peace (and permanent war is good for U.S. business — war is a core U.S. industry, but it also means people die). And Some Pigs are More Equal Than Others (our good friends on Wall Street who never served in the military, went to business school and bankrupted this country, all for a buck).

I meant to say “and tell the President, the Congress, the Secretary of Defense” and the public…

Rosalee, I didn’t serve in Nam but very suprisingly I’ve suffered a similar disdain by some of those that served but didn’t make it a career.

i am a Vietnam Veteran who’s now paying more dearly for strength and a new day . when we came home there was no fanfairs, no one at the home gates of the airport except our wives and some of us were fortunate enough to have a woman who’d put up with our sorry attitudes. 1 year in hell was enough for me while others had it rougher or better 1 year was all i could stand. i try to tell each person whom i see that served in any war since Vietnam i am glad to see they came home and thank them for serving in America’s military..

but i must admit at the same time i find it hard to see the ease they have in getting VA attention and benefits where the common vietnam Vet had to fight bitch argue etc to get any benefits.
the American public has no idea of the haunts of any war and as for taxes ..hell no.. dont raise taxes.. stop borrowing cash from RED CHINA and then GIVING IT TO EV MUSILUM NATION for so called humanitarium needs. take their oil to pay the war debts.. bring our prices back to normal.

the Musilum nations have poor folkls this is true but its their greedy ars leaders who starve them not americans..
we should stop paying immediately .. 1 year alone when Sadamm was in power we gave that govt 52 billion dollars.. think about it..they rape us with extreme prices, and take our cash FREE and i doubt the peoples even recieved a buck.. its soon coming a time where the average american will be called upon to serve this great Nation and it wont be by the politicians if things keep going the way they are.. and in case anyone wants to bitch about blacks and homeless and whites etc gonna get new jobs with The Idiot we now have as a leader, forget it„ many were stupid once listening to his crap. now after 34 months in office and he wants to bring a work package into the game„ what about 3 months after he was elected „after all those were his promises.. sorry if this seemed to go south but ev thing ties into our leaders „

let congress make the declarations as they should„ let congress kick out millions who are here illegally. damn it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see 11 million mexicans working here taking away american jobns. anyone can be American if they want to pay the price.. end the no win wars „ stop all the billions to musilum nations and many more„ take care of Americans first, teach the sacrifices the American troops make and have made, never forget them as they did us …

Hitler and Germany destroyed the best military in the world by allowing it be a politcal ball for the politicians to contiually interfere with the field generals! The greater the inferernce, the GREATER the losses!!! Now take a good look at our Pentagone, and our politicians in DC, it is a perefect match of Adolph’s Germany, and their BLUNDERS!!!!!

If a draft WON’T work in this country then consign yourself to being 2nd class citizen in a system indistinguishable from feudalism.
That’s what has ALWAYS happened when elite classes made up of rulers and warriors take over a country

You haven’t learned to live until You nearly Die. For those who fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know. USMC Combat Vet

Great, fine, I’m all for that. Next time, all the othe other a-holes can put on a uniform. We’ll stay home and watch and laugh. Your notion of the citizen soldier is FOS and exactly why some look down on the services and expect, or would like, to go back to the days of getting our cans shot off for $80.00 a month; it’s expected but, expected of who exactly? I can tell you however who expects it — the ones that expect, the ones who see it as someone elses dirty job. As for measuring up, I’ll leave you with your own uninformed ideas. I know what I did, I knew what I was doing and why when I enlisted in a time of war while others burned their draft cards, and I live with that hole in my life every veteran knows but does not regret. I’m proud and happy I fought for my country and people and nothing in that requires a sense of respect for the ones who duck out; it’s about duty and honor and service.

And by the way, if duty and honor are elitist notions of grandeur I’ll take it 24/7.

I have not served but in my 64 years I have learned a few things. As Americans we tend not to value what we don’t have to pay for in some way. Yes we pay taxes but that’s not what I’m talking about. Personally I believe we, as a country, need a serious course correction. One idea would be for everyone on their 18th birthday, to either join the military in some capacity or to give two years to the county in some other way. The vast majority of us view our lives as an entitlement, our due, without payment or sacrifice. If we all as a matter of course have to give the country two years as a minimum in the military, a work authority, helping in schools or hospitals or the like, then we will all feel we’ve made some personal payment for the advantages we all enjoy. Again, we don’t value that which we don’t have to pay for.

CDragon, your ignorance is showing, and the envy even a greater black mark on your face!

One thing bothers me. The Military is used as a scape goat by our “displeased civilians” and run by our “Politicions” and accordingly, blamed for what ever situations our “so called Government leaders” have put us in. How is anyone supposed to understand our Military, ie, Congressmen, Senitors and last, the Top Leader, who is “supposed to be the ultimate Military Leader” that doesn’t even show proper respect for our Flag or what our Founding Fathers based our Country on. “ALL of our “so called” ” leaders” need and should be called on the carpet for using the Military as an excuse to what ever end they choose. God forbid, anyone in the Military saying ANYTHING dirogitory abou ANY of the Politicions. They are censored to the extream. FREEDOM OF SPEECH! HA! They ALL want and do, blame ALL of the problems and National Debt on the Military’ s budget. We The People need to stand with those that put there lives on the line for us as well as those that need us to staand for them. Vietnam’s blame was our so called leaders responsibility , NOT THE ONE’S IN UNIFORM and EVERYONE IS STARTING TO FORGET THAT. We, as Veterans of that period, are seeing a lot that is STILL wrong, but, we are considered as defective by our leaders so, what we say, according to those in power, should be dismissed as peranoia, unfounded ranting, or just unsubstanciated lies. Blame those that are supposed to be in charged!

I don’t think the draft or the all volunteering has nothing to do with this or having every 18 year old sign in for the military for couple of years won’t help either. It is today’s society. Everyone got spoiled because we new we were the greatest. The greed started with the manipulators of politics in our government system and they did help themselves with there friends. And most of them don’t care, we are there slaves of army. Now our country is going broke except for them or their friend of big corporation running there business from outside the U.S. The jobs are gone, the respect for thy neighbors gone and the name calling begins with slander and violence in our cities, people going homeless and this is just the beginning. Who cares? From the past wars and the Vietnam war era there were many vets standing up for the vets of Afghanistan and Iraq for better changes as they filter out and better VA programs to help them out. You would think from the past our government would have had that in mind before they started the war with these two countries to assist the combat soldiers and put money aside for the modern technology for a better recovery from wound to mental health. No way Jose!!!! They don’t have compassion, It was there pocketbooks they were thinking about and there own private army to protect them. I’m hoping for the betterment of our country. They did the opposite of what JFK said ” It’s not what this Country can do for you but what You Can Do For This Country”.

I was among the last draftees (inducted in January, 1972) in the pre-All Volunteer Army. The first draft lottery was held during my freshman year in college so I had a student deferment for four years until I graduated. By that time I was married and ready to get on with my life but that would have to wait for a couple of years. What I assumed would be two wasted years turned out to be a very interesting and valuable life lesson, though I did not appreciate it at the time. I was exposed to and learned to deal with a very diverse spectrum of people that I would have never been exposed to had I not been drafted. It also requires you to learn self-discipline. (continued in next comment)

I also think that military service gave me more of an investment and involvment into the future success of the Country. I wouldn’t call it “Love of County”, that is not the right term. By then, I had invested two years of my live into serving my county so I had and still have a vested interest in seeing that country continue to be successful. I am certain that not everyone who served in the military feels that vested interest, but I know many who do. I do know for certain that anyone who did not serve does not. Today, we have more social class division, intolerance, lack of self-discipline and concentration on self-gratification rather than the common good than at any time in my 64 years of life. I think that at least part of that may be attributable to lack of a leveling, shared expience that military service used to bring.

Elizabeth Warren said during a debate that she believe all Americans should carry the burden of defense. i agree with her.

I have a daughter in the US Navy. She deploys often and for long periods of time. Her consolidated time out at sea is about 4.5 years now. My job is to raise my granddaughter when Mommy is gone. My daughter is a very intelligent girl a fire control chief, and a very hard worker. I just visit her on the ship sometimes and know I could not do it, the cold steel, you get yourself hurt banging your head, arms, legs and what have you. She tells me that she loves her job but it is hard to leave her daughter. She made the choice to join, she could have gone to college and be a engineer or something, but she wanted the structure and discipline and I guess at the time the challenge to go where few women went before her. There are so many hard working men and women who love doing what they do, enjoy the camaraderie when they are out at sea. and hate the extended absence from their families at the same time. We do not know what they do, but we all should take more interest.

I agree that reconstituting the draft would be a failure. The freedom of choice is paramount to our society and free way of life. That said, I also agree that there is a vast disconnect between society and our military. Why? Because such a small percentage of our population has actually served. As far as a coherent strategy or consensus — good luck on that front. The whole political system is corrupt and run by special interests.

If the middle class is the middle third, then 25% is not a high enough number. If the poor and rich are each less than 25%, then those numbers don’t add up to 100%. Your point lacks clarity just by the numbers.

Thank him for me! My son served in Iraq!

In his novel, “In the Wet”, Nevil Shute described a multi-vote system that has possibilities. A person could have/earn up to 7 votes:
1) Basic vote — every one gets one since they should have a say.
2) Raise 2 or more children to age of majority without criminal problems. Shows stability.
3) Own a business that has more than 10 employees. Producers should have an increased say.
4) Earned a college degree from an accredited institution. Education broadens the mind.
5) Earned your living overseas for 3 consecutive years. Travel broaden the mind.
6) Received an honorable discharge from the Uniformed Services. Shows a willingness to serve/sacrifice.
7) Honorific vote awarded by leader of country with concurrence of the legislature.

Such a system would make it awfully hard for the political class to parse and divide the electorate.

America needs UMT. Universal Military Training for all males and females at the age of 18. Manditory service for 1 year. This would end that disconnect. Not to mention teach a genration that has had so much handed to it to appreciate things just a little bit more.

I strongly suspect that its only the self-styled “intellectual elite” that really excuse themselves from service these days. My son watched 9/11 unfold on TV and decided to become an Army officer. He signed up, even though he did not have to, just like many other young men and women with a good way of life (even if perhaps not with that silver spoon twixt their teeth!). He will almost certainly never run for political office. Still, I would gladly consider voting for him and most any of his comrades in arms, even those with “John Kerry special” Purple Hearts, knowing that they were willing to put it on the line for the country and hoping that they would do the same from the elected position.

Considering the depth of analysis, or I should say the lack thereof, and political pablum in the rest of his comment, a small math problem is almost forgivable.

Even though Im a strong believer in one vote per citizen (in spite of living in MA for many years!), there is a certain merit to the concept. Underlying this multiple vote system is STILL the concept that votes , and the “say” that comes with that privelege, should be earned.

Im noticing that you say “awfully hard” instead of “impossible” though.

Id suggest that with just a little bit of creativity, forms of service amenable to any set of political or religious beliefs, handicaps or other limitations could be devised. Dont make the service “token labor”; make it productive; make it tough; make it challenging and the person that comes out of the program is a very different person than the person that might have a “welfare job” where very little is expected and often nothing is produced. The guys in the WPA and CCC worked their butts off for very little pay, but they PRODUCED and had the pride and self respect afterwards to go along with the paycheck. When the country needs jobs AND needs a revitalization of that ill defined thing that you might call “national character”… WPA and CCC starts looking pretty good I think!

There is no benefit to taxing the rich… they will just pass it on to the lower and middle class. Instead of hiring the new kid, they’ll give everyone else a greater work load and maintain their profits… or they’ll lay off some more employees and do the same thing. Either way, the lower and middle class pays for it…

I agree as well… that’s why the civilian marksmanship program got started… “Behind every blade of grass…”

American citizens are the original “first responders.”

I think that we are just scratching the surface of the various options that could be available. The bottom line would be “Mandatory Service” in some way that is beneficial to the country. An “intelligent” approach might be to have a regular buffet of options that the young citizen-to-be could choose, with the associated benefits of each option “adjusted” regularly to reflect the current needs of the country. For example, in times of war, the “non combat” options could loose some of the bennies at least in a relative sense, and the front line military options pick up combat pay, shorter committments, or ????. You just have to get over that initial hump of accepting “mandatory service” and the box is wide open!

I totally agree
It would give people a better understanding of what this country is about and give them a sense of pride for participating in the big picture instead of everyone for themselves.

I’ve read the article, and I’ve read some of your comments, personally, I think the article is wrong about a lot of things. Perple join the military because it’s their choice to join or not join, thats part of what makes us(the USA)who we are. While most of us think(me included) it’s a good thing for every citizen to serve for at least three years, the truth is, it is their right not to, thats why I served. We have always been free because of the sacrafices of a few, thats what we do, we make things possible for the many. The probably is when the system is manipulated by the wealthy for their own personal gains, it has happened before and it will undoubtedly happen again. Politicians take money from the rich and help them(the rich) acheive their goals, and that is to make more money, I call it “Exploitation of the Military”, it’s Unamerican, and that is wrong. The only thing “the people” can do is not vote for those politicians.

Some States have manipulated voters into thinking that the Government is the problem, by those same politicians that make up the Government, that’s why we have a divide. The wealthy pay the Politicians and the Politicians manipulate the voters, 17 million will buy you a lot of manipulation.….And both sides do it, one side started it, that forced the other side to do it just to “balance” things out.…what a mess!!!!

Victor says (Re: 7 votes):” Such a system would make it awfully hard for the political class to parse and divide the electorate.”

To the contrary, such a system would only make it easier for the ‘political class’ to get what they want. Because those votes, like any other valuable commodity, would often end up for sale to the highest bidder.

And the highest bidders would continue to be the people backed by corporate Big Money, ie; the same old“political class”…

That may be true bob, but it’s the conservatives thats fight the idea of a draft. My thoughts are, if we need a draft, then we draft. If we don’t need a draft, then we don’t draft.…simple.

That is not wisdon, that is lunacy.

Mabe the “real workers” should join the Military CDragon, we did. Or mabe the civilian sector jobs should come up with a benifit package thats the same as the Militray’s. They won’t do that because it take away too much of their profit. They got people fighting for that Dragon, they are called unions.

If you were never part of the military (which I’m guessing is true) then you wouldn’t understand. Having lived through the 60s, you should appreciate what the draft did by “engaging” the public. And there is ABSOLUTELY a disconnect, with no need for quotation marks around it, between the public and servicemen/vets. And there is NO appreciation of what these 22 year olds with 3 years of combat under their belt are going through upon their attempted return to civilian life. We appreciate the pats on the back. But that doesn’t mean you have any appreciation for what we’ve done or what we’re going through. And the article is right–where’s the public outcry in one respect or another. You’re exactly the person this article SHOULD speak to–someone who remembers what public involvement was with regard to military actions. In the last 20 years the military has fought in at least a dozen different, armed conflicts all over the world. The Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa. And no one in the public is organizing a rally to ask “WHY?”. You are wrong, and it’s rather sad that you’re one of the people that should understand what this article is about.

As a retired Air Force E-8, I can only say that I don’t want to see the draft come back for my grandchildren. The disconnect between civilian and military has been there for, dare I say, centuries. Here’s Rudyard Kipling’s comments in excerpts from his poem “Tommy” written before 1936. I’m sorry I had to cut this up to make it fit but you can always go on-line and read the whole poem.

For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”; But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide, …

You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires an’ all: …
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!“
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country,” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
But Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

There’s an argument there. As for “lunacy”, you have a thin definition for it. I’ve seen lunacy, this doesn’t come close.

Ok, I see your point.… the middle class has been outsource, the wealthy never serve, etc. But raising taxes on that outsourced middle class is somehow the answer we are looking for?. How about we quit running business out of the country to find cheap labor, lower taxes, and less government envolvment? How about we curve these greedy unions that muscle business into 3rd world countries? or quit letting these unsustainable (and over bloated) pensions of public servants go unchanged?

So you know, I have served throughout 3 wars, been poor to middle class, to poor again. I have seen Poor, middle class, and rich alike use tax brakes to their fullest capabilities and I have seen substantial dollar figures paid out in taxes but all classes. I have seen and realized Free market and trickle effect actually work. Politicians are the ones that typically go unscathed by taxes, insurances, retirments, pensions…etc. you want accountability, then don’t suffer the middle class, the poor, or the rich. instead hold the corrupt politicians accountable, they are know by their actions. truth is easy to see when you know what you are looking for.

I come from a country that has a microscopic sized volunteer military — yet, it has joined the US in almost every conflict on the planet. At present, I live in a country that doesn’t have a war-time draft, that does require every adult male to serve 2 years in the military. For all the discomfort of people knowing they will serve in uniform (pre or post college), they just do the unglamorous job of soldiering.

The result of this involvement is that every family in this nation with the population of the US knows and understands what the military is about and what it means to sacrifice for the national good. And as an unintended consequence of service, this country has has a population of relatively healthy and fit individuals and a volunteer military that is strong and respected.

There is nothing wrong with every family serving the nation and even a good reason for doing so when economic times are tough.

The reserves were omitted in the article. LBJ never called up the reserves during Vietnam, but the current force couldn’t function without them. They make it a truely middle class Army and draw on the backbone of the American middle class.

The wealthy families supply about 20% of the volunteers in ‘our’ military. Check DOD numbers.

Congress doesn’t want us citizens to ‘sacrifice,’ they want us to SPEND. You can’t sacrifice when you are trying to ‘buy’ your way out of a recession.

The draft seems like a good idea in theory with the goal of equality, but there is no equality. All that would end up doing is upsetting a lot of people and they would only draft middle and low class male and female alike. Our country doesn’t like to admit that there is a lower-class, they are the ones that enlist to provide themselves with a future, benefits, good pay etc. Being a soldier is supposed to be an honor. Our country’s leaders are abusing our military. They clearly do not care about the American people.

the only people that would be paying the taxes are the families of the soldiers that are fighting this war. so they would be paying not only with blood, but sure why not add more taxes as well. They only keep going up. The soldier will always re-enlist so they can afford to provide for their family. Think the job market is bad? what will all the soldiers do for jobs once the war is over?

Every single American both male & female should be required to do 2 years Active Duty upon graduation from High School. This would not only provide them with an appreciation of what troops lives are like in the Military, it would also give them a chance to mature, learn responsibility for individual actions, and give them a sense of pride and teach them that they are capable of far more than they think they are as individuals. It might also lead more young people to choose Military Careers over the civillian sector.

It is strange to hear an American say …I personally know veterans…Perhaps that is part of the problem right there. A young man married into the family was at our family reunion. He asked who, besides me (a female) was a veteran. I pointed out 3 generations of veterans from WWII to the current, including hot Cold War assignments. This included all branches of the military including the Merchant Marine (WWII) and the Coast Guard. I think, as anew veteran said to me, “Civilians care more about a flooded Walmart than what is going on in the sandbox.” How many Americans can look at a map and show where the Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan are?
I do agree, members of government should participate in the risk process. Putting the money up front might be a good idea but who can keep a secret in the BeltWAY? Those who are on the other side would know when the money would be spent. Marksmanship is not a priority in BCT—stay alive get training on the side.
When they send MY kids and grandkids there, i would like THEIR kids to be part of a camera crew on a fact finding mission. I don’t want the politicians over there on a boon-doggle that costs us tax-payers more $$$$$$$—yup, that much. I want the parents to see the looks on their childrens faces when they describe what they have seen. And, I hope to God no one gets raped and it be swept under the rug because the person didn’t struggle enough (just another hazzard of war, girlie).

Maybe I will ease your worry here a bit. The soldiers will not all be out looking for work when Afghanistan and Iraq are over. It looks like 50 to 100 thousand fewer active duty will be drawn down but that is not all at once, it will take place over 5 or so years

Who gets a pension in 20 years with free medical and education? Well, let’s see; everyone living in Greece, Italy, Spain, France, England, Ireland, Sweden, and Norway. In this country: teachers, police, fireman, postal workers, and just about all of the big unions. Wake up my friend.

In the current system the political class only has to look at the largest group or a small number of groups and craft a message that appeals to that group/groups. They just need a small majority of one vote. With a multi-vote system it is more difficult to craft a message that appeals to a person that has votes 1,2,6 and to another that has 1,3, 5 and another that has 1, 4. Not to say that it cannot be done, but breaking out a sufficient number of votes for victory out of such a diverse group would be more difficult than appealing to one or two large interest groups.

On my last business trip, I caught a wonderful movie titled “The Eagle”. It is the story — mostly fiction — of a young Roman Centurion posted to Britain after the Ninth Legion disappeared and Hadrian’s Wall was built. While historians believe that the Roman Ninth Legion was decimated in the Bar Kokhba revolt as well as the Twenty Second Legion, the story line in the movie is that the Ninth Legion was massacred in Scotland, losing its eagle standard there. After being crippled in battle, the centurion goes up into Scotland with one British servant to recover the eagle and his family’s honor. And the rest I’ll leave for you all to see. But the movie plays on this theme of sacrifice and honor in a situation that would not be unfamiliar to our young men and women, out on the frontiers of freedom, in dark and friendless places where courage is a way of life.

Read the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.

That’s bs about the rich don’t serve. I personally know five kids of millionaires who are either currently serving or did serve in Iraq or Afghanistan, and at least three kids of billionaires. these are all oil and gas money people from Texas, it was much rarer event on the east and west coasts.

I don’t know about the Army reserves but i do know people who were in the A.F. reserves and ANG that were taking supplies into Vietnam whether it was aircraft, food supplies ammo ‚weapons,etc. maybe omitted to get into the actual war action.

I agree with you 100%.

without the draft, the poor and middle class will always be forced to bare the burden of military service. Two years of mandatory service works in Isreal and other nations and it will work here. Two years for everyone, no exemptions, no school loans or government services or assistance without it. Mandatory after high school. Pay would be less, but if you want the big bucks-Join

I agree with you J Shaw. We should consider the risk that going to an all volunteer force will have on the US Military. We shouldn’t engage in a grand experiment and restructuring of our military just because we have bad politicians. Instead we should hold politicians accountable for their poor decisions at the ballot box.
Plus, we have a Congress that can’t even pass basic Appropriations bills, why would we think they could pass divisive and complex legislation such as a draft? Meanwhile, opportunities to fix our economy, national security, and address other problems get missed as we become further divided and disillusioned.

If the army prefers to keep itself separated from the American People to retain its independence — then it loses the right to complain when the people ignore it and/or its needs. I consider this a serious mistake. When it comes to involvement in the nations affairs, you can believe that the invasion of Iraq wouldn’t have likely happened if the draft had been in effect, because then everyone with children of draft age would’ve been PAYING ATTENTION. And that is what many in government do NOT want.

I don’t think its a matter of wanting to ‘retain independence’. I think it’s about wanting to have the most motivated, quality people organizing, training, equipping, and operating the forces providing our national security. There is no reason to believe that if there was a draft then the invasion of Iraq wouldn’t have happened, because at the time we were trying to defend ourselves after 9/11 and the Iraq was was authorized by a bi-partisan Congressional vote. Contrast this with the Libyan War, where Obama didn’t even seek a Congressional authorization. I don’t think a draft is the answer. Smarter voting is.

The problem with the draft as most of us know it, is that even when its working, only a relatively small percentage of those “eligible” end up loosing (or some would say, winning) the lottery! Forget the draft, as you suggest, just make it universal mandatory service. Everyone gets the benefits of living in the US (or whatever nation you might choose), everyone pays their dues, one way or another, in uniform or running a daycare center or cafeteria for those who are in uniform or whatever other “service to the society” role you can conceive! :-)

There are a lot of people who are supposed to be representing the public and good hand full to work for the people. The local and state are just drawing a pay check. They can’t help Vet’s or working class start companies, only pay large companies to come in and suck the economy dry. The representatives don’t care it it is voluntary or draft, just as long as the big players make money to put in their accounts. Who we have to do the public’s work and represent people’s concerns, including giving care to the nation’s future by declaring the wars certainly isn’t doing their jobs. It is more than the President. The congress is to busy with lobbyist to take a balanced and careful view of the people’s business. The locals are just yokles who may or may not get the streets fixed. God Bless American People to elect representatives and executives that are fit to govern, manage and represent.

How many cliches did you pack into that??? I’m sorry, I’m just a red Maoist, Commie-fascist sympathizer.

Ah, the old let’s bring back the draft to make these fat civies more grateful to the powerpoint rangers serving in Qatar and Kuwait for tax free pay trick. That certainly didn’t work in Vietnam. Sorry patriots, professional armies are the way to go for many reasons. Even Russia is moving away from conscription.

So Lincoln, FDR, and many others would have never been president. But the guy who did 3 years as an admin clerk in the rear “busted his ass” for god and country nonetheless…

I think 99% of service members forget the reasons for CIVILIAN control of the military and the fact it is codified in our laws.

Nor would I ever want a General/Admiral or NCO to lead the country. Military members are trained to do one thing: to fight and win wars, not lead a civilian populace with diverse interests while defending and grow an economy.

defending liberty, not enforcing martial law or UCMJ

So mutinous, how dare you question military bennies on a website with 99% military readership that would anoint Douglas MacArther with a crown because he is a “military man.” I wonder what is considered “reasonable pay rate” for military personnel since someone will always complain.

I’m not talking about the E-4 that has to request foodstamps since he CHOSE to have 5 kids on an E-4s salary yet decided to forgoe actually saving money and buy that shiny new mustang from his downrange pay. I am a former infantryman, so shut up.

The defense budget is on draft 5 year out. It is only approved one year prior, I do not know how you can match revenue with the expenditures that way. Create a tax before the purpose of its funding exists or may not exist? No one would support any military action that way. “Don’t deploy that 82d yet, we don’t have the tax bill authorized yet.”

Nothing like mandatory “make work” programs to force a patriotic nation. If the kids have nothing better to do, at least they can break rocks or pick up cigarette butts to keep out of trouble.

Maybe we should have mandatory fly the flag day, that would force those bastards to post the old glory in the way she was supposed to be on every house on the block. Also, mandatory yellow ribbon bumper sticker day and pin on flag on lapel day and all hail G.W. “liberator of Iraq” Bush day etc…if an “American” decided not to follow any of these mandatory patriot days, we would deport their asses to Cuba since they have shown themselves to be traitors and subversives.

Perhaps you draft-philes like the idea of human wave armies in the model of China, N. Korea, and WWII Russia where life’s cheap (and so is the gear) but they get the job done?

Do the draft supporters see any interesting correlations with draft countries and their economy/reputation/quality of military etc?

http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​C​o​n​s​c​r​i​p​t​ion I didn’t know we can’t put html links here.

More of the same class warfare the Dem’s are using to kill the spirit of those who don’t know how this economy works! As the daughter of a Ret Marine I, and most people I know, wouldn’t mind paying higher taxes to SUPPORT our military. The problem is the money never goes dowager higher pay, better benefits for the military and their families, instead to lobbyist and pet projects of the politicians. I guarantee if a fund similar to Wiunded Warrior or the Red Cross was set up it would receive billions in voluntary donations. I just don’t want to pay more so the money can be WASTED on the Likes of the Solyndra’s and other black holes. Even scarier to me though is that with the moral, ethical & economical mess our country is in that more people don’t inform themselves and vote common sense instead of “What Can My Gov’t GIVE ME”!!

You get a shot at a cheap M1 rifle and free ammo too!

I“ve always thought a sales tax was smarter. The customer will only pay so much for the produce on the shelf. If the merchant has to lower the price to get them to buy it; then technically the merchant pays the tax. Texas does this very well. The state is big enough it doesn’t pay to jump the state line to avoid the sales tax. This can also control inflation, because it discourages frivolous purchases, or impulse buying.

Both parties would scream about how it would hurt the economy of course.

Maybe what we need is a kind of “Peace Corp” draft; only it would just be a short term project to expose folks to the problems the military soldier and families are suffering from — for that matter, firemen and police too! Make them help the families of our heroes, even if they don’t get exposed to gun fire. They could even integrate it with the present Peace Corp for that matter.

Drawing them into the part time reserve and guard will soften the blow. At least they’d have a part time job.

I agree TanksAway; I’ve predicted for a while that this could creat dangerous societal problems much like those in history where similar systems existed.

I agree on the character building part of your statement; but spending money on that kind of infrastructure is just busy work and won’t ad to the economy. We already have that infrastructure in place, and repair funds a also there, if they would just tap them.

The best idea I’ve seen yet, was a proposal to build electric grid services to tie together all the new solar and wind-power stations that are being built already without tax dollars. The power companies themselves could pay for it with a transmission fee. This would solve so many problems that I can think of — I’m not sure there is room to list them all. The jolt to the economy would be substantial. and ALL of it would stay in the US!! The satisfaction that the oil barons of the middle east would be losing out, also entertains me no end!

There are wind farms in Texas just sitting there idle because certain political factions are blocking the construction of such transmission lines. While we are at it, we could make it a smart grid, so all the battery cars coming into auto show rooms this year, would be used as giant storage farms for emergency power, and peak generating periods.

Hmm! My buddy joined the Air Force and ended up getting shot at in several firefights to defend the base. Probably not a good formula if you just want to avoid getting shot, or drafted into a likely posture, as such.

I think the Army learned there lesson at Waco on that one. And even then it was illegal the way they forced them to participate in that particular action against civilians.

I’m not military. How is this different from any number of other current issues where our government seems disconnected from the expressed interests of the American people? I’m thinking Tea Party, and the “Occupy” movement as an expression of this. Yet, if anything, there is more ligitimacy in the notion that democracy does not follow the flag, and there is an imperial component to government policy in foreign affairs. ____Maybe the problem is not the permanent army in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the permanent army running Washington. Somewhare I read that there is less turn over in our Congress, than in England’s House of Lords. Talk about an army of occupation. Naturally, under these circumstances, inevitably, most people will act in their own interests and impowerment.____We can change this without a draft. Difficult as it may seem, we do have the power to do it every election day.

The Posse Comitatus Act generally limits the use of the US military from “putting down civilian protests” or even the enforcement of laws within the US. The National Guard (when under the orders of the state government) and the Coast Guard (in times of peace) are specifically exempt. The concept of Posse Comitatus is one of the somewhat unique features of the US federal law. There is also the long tradition of the US soldier being under the command of the ELECTED US government, whether that soldier supports that particular political party, or not. The “prohibitions” of Posse Comitatus have been generally eroded over the last 30 years or so, but.… . . its still part of federal law.

Sounds as if the ONLY answer from your point of view is a “dictatorship of the proletariat”, but if you remember, that particular political model crashed and burned miserably in.… lets see.… 1991?

Perhaps for all of its “warts”, one citizen — one vote (freely given and by force of law at least, uncorrupted!) might not be such a bad approach.

The Army or all military branches just need some better public relations people. The military and all of America is in a recovery and transition period. This all ways leads to confusion and misinformation. Its an all volunteer service now, so no one is to be blamed because people of wealth do not join. Our Armed Services’ relations to civilians are very different during times of war than at times of peace. During times of was the service must maintain a certain amount of secreacy to protect operation plans, troop movement, supply lines, the list goes on. No one OWNS the military. It is a Service under the command of The Commander-in-Chief, The Senate, and The Congress of The United States of America. Our ELECTED Officials.

Perhaps you might be able to explain how so many protests were raging during the period 1966–1969 when college deferments were quite freely available? Deferments were only dropped when the lottery was introduced, which didn’t happen until December 1969. Indeed, there were major protests in the spring of 1970, but they were but the mere culmination of quite extensive protesting against the war which had already occurred. What drove those spring 1970 protests were the Nixon administration’s blatant violation of its powers by openly invading Cambodia and thereby widening the war for little gain. So, the exposure of the upper classes to the draft had done little to fuel the protests against America’s widening involvement in the war in Southeast Asia.

The Army was not at Waco., The CEV’s that were loaned from ATF came out of the Texas National Guard. Any issues with Posse Comitatus should be addressed to the former Governor of Texas, one Anne Richards.

This was a Federal action. I saw the congressional investigation that put the Army officials in the light they didn’t want to be in. The Governor still only has limited reach, as the Guard is not a militia despite what Hollywood says. There was a great conflict in this operation as the Army new they were in the envelope of responsibility. Army assets paid for by Federal dollars. State assets like that are rare, as most states can’t afford but very obsolete equipment. I know this because I was in charge of Divisional MTOE in two states, one of which was Texas. I’m also very familiar with this case and have studied it for years.

To the Army’s credit, they did fight very hard to block the use of the equipment and any Army trained personnel ( Guard personnel are Army, not state as is supposed). Governors do have limited ability to call out Guard assets during emergencies, but not without clearance from the Feds in certain enforcement actions, and usually the President on military action.

There are many loopholes in this; remember Washington putting down the Whiskey Rebellion? This set the precedent to certain actions. I suspect Ann Richards tried to duck responsibility, since this was a Federal action and since these were Federal assets. But Governors actually have very limited powers with the Guard in the first place. This was reiterated when President Reagan over-road State Governors in military call outs during his Presidency. The State Governors only have complete control of State Militias, which are rare now days. Texas has one, but Texas didn’t own the hardware assets. A lot of people would have probably had their butts handed to them on a platter if the Oklahoma bombing hadn’t diverted attention from the congressional investigation.

Another unique situation with Texas is that the Governor is actually quite hamstrung in power all around. This happened because of the carpetbagger days of the Civil War Reconstruction. Only the Lt. Governor actually wields power at all in Texas. This is why Governor Richards can beg off all responsibility; if the feds thought they could get away with claiming that she ordered the action, they were ignorant.

Correct!

My cousin was in the Guard when he graduated college( another fallacy that you could duck the draft with college and being in the Guard). He was so busy ducking 20 mm gun fire from fratricide in the jungle from our fly-boys, he thanked God for making it back in one piece! He was at least relieved to be an officer so he could be in charge of his own, and his men’s survival.

Posse Comitatus was was enacted after the US Civil War when Federal forces still “occupied” the defeated Confederacy. :-)

The President has “first dibs” on the National Guard, but when not formally “federalized”, the Guard belongs to the State Adjutant General and is available at the pleasure of the governor of the state or possession (Samoa or Puerto Rico) for roles ranging from disaster recovery to law enforcement.

I ignore Posse Comitatus. The fact is — the US Federal government owns the Guard lock stock and barrel. Governors only get to play with them for the purpose of local disaster emergencies. Even Governors got a bad taste in their mouth at Kent State. This is one of the main reasons, the Army wants out of those kind of civilian operations. They are either too political, have religious connotations, or are usually just badly hatched law enforcement plans. Ask the FBI about Ruby Ridge, I’m sure that one tastes like stink bug in their mouths.

I sometimes ignore speed limit signs and no parking zones, but afraid Im not quite so bold as to ignore federal law! :-)

As for the governers’ shying away from some of their constitutional and legal authority with the state National Guard, I amost think thats a good thing. Not sure if I would want to have Bradleys sitting up “speed traps” with a few rounds of API to slow down speeders, but.… they DO belong to the governers except for when federalized. And when under state control, the Guard is exempted from the standard Posse Commitatus restrictions.

I sure recall the end of the draft and active combat in Vietnam in the same year–1973. Two yrs later N Vietnamese tanks crashed through the US Embassy in Saigon and the party was over as desperate refugees clung to Huey chopper skids. It’s been pointed out over and over that less than one percent of American adults are in a military uniform, active and reserve. Everytime I see a serviceman or woman I thank them for their service and commitment. I’m an army vet, W. Germany, early 60s, non-combat. Helicopter flight operations. I enlisted at 18 several months out of h.s. and served a total of over 5 yrs and made Sp5 E-5.

My son is light infantry 10th mountain division, we own a multi million dollar company and he has a trust fund that would pay for any college he might choose. Service and sacrifice has nothing to due with a persons wealth and everything to do with their character.

@ Crm,

Oh yeah? Well both of my sons are in the Army, one as an MP and the other as a legal clerk. I am also a millionaire and my sons can do whatever they want.

@DC2 Jennings,

What do you mean, “The only people not sacrificing in America are the wealthy”? That’s absurd. The children of wealthy families serve, and wealthy business owners are the ones to provide jobs to veterans. Military service members, enlisted included, on average have more education than compared to civilians of comparable age groups. You’re ill-informed.

Think about the civilians you deal with on a daily basis…do your really, REALLY want to put your life in the hands of many of those people in combat?

Actually the book itself does not mention other paths to citizenship outside of being a veteran (and remember that as kim brought up that included voting rights not just the ability to hold office).

Heinlen mentioned in interviews that his intent was means of Federal service outside of the military but it is never explicitly stated in the book itself.

The irony of a confessed draft dodger making claims regarding who is and who is not in a fighting hole.

Sooo the best way to stop expeditionary wars is to make combat service a prereq for the Presidency?

Got it.

Citizens and Civilians… there is a difference

Magus47, you are no draft dodger by joining one of our nations Armed Forces…the US Air Force. Thank you for your service! As a “ground pounder,” I really appreciated having A-10’s above (and those who supported them) to pull us out of a jam. Not everyone is the right fit for the Infantry of the Army and Marines and that is fine! We are happy for support services and what they bring to the fight! Thanks, and don’t compare yourself to those who actually really ran away during the years of the draft.

jka, That Douglas MacArther was a good General is a fair statement to a degree but no one in our country deserves a crown (think Revolutionary War, Declaration of Independance and US Constitution). General MacArther deserved to be FIRED by (a former combat veteran of WWI) President Truman. Oh, statement is from a combat infantryman too.

Good point!

This is such a non-issue. Draft? If you want to return to the drugged out, fragging military of the 60’s. Complete with a rise in disciplinary problems and loss of combat effectiveness. When it comes to serious issues, as they say on the internet: too long, didn’t read (tl;dr). Most Americans would rather watch “American Idol” than the news.

The wealthy? Seriously, stop flogging that dead horse. Service is about volunteering. It’s about the will to fight. I don’t care if the “1%” won’t sing up. I’m active duty military. I care if the soldier to my left and my right has my back. Or has swept the stairs before inspection.

The fighting spirit, loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service. You can’t draft it, buy it or find it in a store. An adult has to sign on the dotted line, attend basic training and graduate. And then attend MORE training. After that they have to show the will to preform their tasks according to the standard (or above the standard if they want to get promoted).

Forrest Gump is roadkill in the modern military. We don’t need numbers, we need SOLDIERS (or sailors, Marines and Airmen). Random dude/dudette off the street will either pop hot for drugs, have a criminal record or just doesn’t want to be there.
Many jobs require technical skills that the average xbox playin’ 17–19 year old doesn’t have.
Many young people are overweight and can’t pass the height and weight body fat standards. PT injuries many trainees each year, a draft would simply add to that number.
We need more than numbers. We need people who WANT to serve. Many people who want to serve can’t because of family issues, health problems or legal troubles. The Army alone kicks out 2% of soldiers for substance abuse. That’s in peace time with people who want to be there. Wanna go back to the draft era 20% popping hot for drugs?

It’s the American people’s own fault if they have the disconnect. I’m stationed at Fort Bliss. It’s an open post, You can drive on post with a valid ID. Most CONUS posts are like that. they have tours and special events.

I’d bet 50 pushups Mr. Ricks has never visited any post recently.

I also figure that he hasn’t read the technical or field manuals for our current military. many are online. The Cold War-era high school dropout or draftee wouldn’t pass muster these days.

You go to war with the military you can get to graduate basic, not some fantasy military you wish you had.

You can’t force values down peoples throats. They just vomit them out. I want the soldiers to the left and right of me to have my back, not nursing “conscript syndrome”. I don’t know and don’t care what the “1%” think about me or want of me. My crew drills and what my SGT thinks is more important.

Any public service should be a calling, not forced. As for the politicians, who voted them in? Yeah, we need to think before we pull that lever.

Yea it’s real pity the Nazis aren’t running Europe isn’t it. What a nut-job.

The draft should be re-instated, although with some qualifiers. The goal should be to draft the Good, Ugly, but NOT the Bad. I got drafted, it didn’t kill me.

I did– and still do. So many are unwilling to serve and protect. Although near 60, I am a volunteer police officer. We must find a way to bring back honest patriotism, or we’ll be speaking Mandarin.

Unfortunately, the public indifference to members of the military dates back to our American Revolution. Returning veterans were treated as outcasts and in many instances taken advantage of regarding worthless government script (money) and the theft of their government bounty land..

As an 18 year dual-service disabled veteran of the U.S. Navy and Air Force, I do believe that there is a great divide between those of us who have sacrificed and served honorably and those who have not.

I personally take offense to many of the civilian populace who half-heartedly extend their hand and tell you that they appreciate your service. I look in their eyes and know that the statement is not sincere.

Most of my fellow veterans are of the mind-set that, “only a veteran will take care of a veteran, and only a veteran knows what another veteran has experienced.”

Until we build a bridge to connect the veteran and civilian communities, this divide will continue to broaden.

I agree that the Military etal, is not fully understood by the US ELectoral base.
However, this is not new news. The Cold War vets, Nam Vets, and way back there, the Korean vets, experienced the same “lack of understanding”/
Budget wars have and will be fought each and every cycle of Government. To press “lack of understanding” as a reason de terre for more money, more equitable taxation AKA tax the wealthy, is inappropriate.

PR, education by sites like Mil​.com and others, Wounded Warriors, and mulitple other organizations are fast closing the “lack of understanding” gap, if there even is one.

Recall the days of airport home comings in the 60s. Vets did well to run the gauntlet of ANTIs in those days. A real live “lack of understanding” existed then, no where near what the article implies exists today.
end
Semper Fi

And yet the Nimitz still seems to feel like High School all over again…

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement