Listening to the machines

Listening to the machines

One of the keys to keeping the Army’s fleet of ground vehicles in fighting shape may be equipping them to ask for help, the service’s top logistician said Tuesday. It could present a big business opportunity for vendors to monitor or service the Army’s thousands upon thousands of tactical and stateside vehicles.

Lt. Gen. Mitch Stevenson, the Army’s top logistics officer — known in green-speak as the G-4 — pointed out during a panel discussion at AUSA that most of the cost for a piece of military equipment is operations and sustainment over its service life. Army mechanics and contractors are good at servicing vehicles and aircraft based on the calendar, Stevenson said, and they know to perform service or replace parts after certain numbers of miles driven or hours flown. But the Army might be able to save money and prevent accidents if it gave vehicles and aircraft the ability to report on their own readiness, he said.

Stevenson said the Army is looking into the possibilities of what he called “condition-based maintenance,” in which onboard computers in vehicles or aircraft could tell soldiers in detail about the shape of their internal workings. He compared to General Motors’ OnStar system, which monitors your Chevrolet and can alert you when it’s time for an oil change, or when one of your car’s major components isn’t working anymore. Multiply that by all the vehicles and aircraft in the Army, and you’re talking about a lot of boxes, network integration and potential service contracts.


About two-thirds of the Army’s helicopters are set up for at least a basic version of this kind of self-reporting, Stevenson said. He described it as a success and cited “documented cases” in which soldiers have prevented an accident “because we got information from a platform that a component was going to go bad and stopped it from happening.” The Army isn’t where it wants to be with instrumenting its aircraft fleet, “but we’re in a basic state,” he said.

If more of the Army’s tactical vehicles could do the same thing, “Think about what that could mean for a commander who’s about to go outside the wire,” Stevenson said. “Commanders would want to know, ‘Is it ready?’ and ‘Am I about to have a failure?’”

There’s no telling how big the potential market would be for these kinds of services, but at least one major player is already interested: Chris Chambers, vice president of tactical vehicles for BAE Systems, told Buzz in July that his firm wants to explore opportunities for expanding this kind of monitoring. The question now is, will the service deem it a big enough priority to fund it, or will this become a casualty of the Big Crunch?

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Interesting that “prognostics” are coming back to the surface again after the FCS fiasco. Yes, that program where the vehicles were going to order their replacement parts before the failure. Sure, BAE is interested. The Army will flush millions their way only to get nothing worthwhile in the end. Just like FCS. Ever notice how the Army brass will preach on how to prognosticate failures, but can’t prognosticate the budget?

I agree. I can’t see this being of any value in what the Gen is spewing out. Sound like he’s on his way out and ready for retirement. When PM’s see SPI and CPI numbers look bad, when does the PM tell the bosses? Houston … We have a problem! Instead, its easier to report … No issues here „„ Sir.

This is such BS, Somebody is obviously looking for a contractor position after retirement. The more monitors and electronics you put on vehicles the harder they are to maintain in the field and more likely to break down. The troops just need to do thier PMCS and be held accoutable for doing it. Just switching from TH400’s trans to 4L80E electronic trans has caused so much more maintenance problems and breakdowns due to the modules that it’s not funny. NO MORE GADGETS PLEASE.

I love how he compares it to OnStar. I don’t understand how having an expensive computer telling me to change my oil is cheaper than checking the engine at intervals and pulling the dip stick. OnStar’s real purpose is warranty management for the OEMs. It marginally benefits consumers and its biggest claim to fame? unlocking your car.

I don’t think they want wireless unlocking on the battlefield.

Why stop at vehicles? How about a self monitoring/self-diagnostic capable, satellite linked, netcentric, 5th generation shove…oops, I mean, “entrenching tool” for the warfighter? With mm wave AESA radar and Multispectrum 3D hi-def imaging to show the battalion commander back at the HQ exactly how deep each and every foxhole is, of course…

I mean… do we really want our brave troops on the ground to have to settle for anything less than what’s best for retired general officer VP’s and their shareholders?

BITE (Built-In_Test_Equipment) is, and always will be the single hardest part to troubleshoot. The Army has moved away from having more proficient mechanics, so this move toward much more complicated trucks is just plain stupid. Has Stevenson ever been more than PowerPoint deep on maintenance?

The ignorance and arrogance of senior leadership is both stunning and tragic. The General is a victim of “greedy reductionism” — eager to jump to the conclusion that vehicle readiness & maintenance can be reduced to compenent failures reported up through a centrally controlled system. Did the General take into account RTOK, poor network connectivity, intermittent failures, operator error, software reolading, or the infinite # of other glitches that can bite you? The Army (and all the Services to be sure) needs to invest in its maintenance corps, and ensure design for maintainability is integrated into system development. The real thing. Not lip service, and then in reality industry-friendly solutions are the decision driver. You hit the nail on the head about flushing dollars but the order of magnitude is billions, not millions.

Nice thing about OnStar — the two-way transmitter system. The Feds once lost a case when busting a drug dealer by listening through his OnStar (back in the day it was a one-way OPEN channel) cause they were interfering with a contract (an open line, whether used or not). Bet they’ve fixed that now.

Excuse me, but this is just a dumb comment, especially from a “tanker” — a typical example of low-tech, troglodyte warrior sour grapes. Look at the automobile industry. The car you drive is wired up full of sensors. The sensor readings are what your mechanic checks to see what is wrong with your vehicle. The car I drive even reports low tire pressure up the to dashboard. There is really no reason at all why the army’s vehicle fleet cannot and should not be outfitted with a system like this — and no reason why our soldiers cannot be trained to use such systems intelligently. Exactly what is the problem with networking vehicles to make readiness reporting more efficient and accurate ? There are enough hard problems out there to whine about, instead of whining about the easy ones. Speed and Power.

Namecalling isn’t going to help advance the debate, especially from someone that doesn’t understand my position. I sincerely desire a productive discussion. The analogy between the automobile industry and warfighting equipment fails for a number of reason. It’s pretty d*mn depressing to see the Army grasping at straws from the auto industry, vs learning lessons from their past screw ups. Automobiles operate under much less severe environments on smooth roads and the rules of behavior are well defined and enforced. War, and the process of acquiring weapons for war, is chaos, quite frankly. The auto industry has much more characteristics of a free market than the defense industry. Autos are much less tightly coupled and constrained and perform a much different set of functions than military gear.

Let me clarify my position, I’m not opposed to diagnostic systems. I’m saying the investment and faith in diagnostic systems needs to take into account life cycle, operational suitability & effectiveness, affordability, and complexity. The ignorance, under appreciation of, and woeful neglect of UNCERTAINTY & RISK, in systems acquisition is demonstrated again and again. Monte Carlo Simulation is ignored and feared by the innumerate culture. There are much more simpler, straightforward solutions to diagnostics, maintenance, and readiness, building upon lessons learned from past systems, then chasing the latest marketing gimmick.

The whole networked maintenance concept reeks of leadership desperately grasping for centralized control over what they really don’t understand. Chaos & uncertainty of war, and the lessons of history, beg for decentralized solutions, distribution of risk, and an end to micromanagement. So please, the Army has enough “hard problems” to solve already that need resourcing and for which applied resources could yield better returns with less risk than the latest high promising technological Tower of Bable BHAG.

If they really want to make the vehicles and gear more robust and dependable then they need to start listening to the people that fix them on a daily basis. The HUMVEE for example — we told them going from manual to auto trans was a big mistake rather than continuing to teach troops how to drive a stick, as a result we rebuild over 200 trans a month and scrapp ones that are to far gone to rebuild because they wouldnt listen, then there is thier weak engines with no power issue — rather than listening to us they stayed with the same poor GM engine design and added a turbo and larger injection pump, nothing gained but expense, for the same money we could had converted them to cummins 4 cyl turbo engines capeable of pulling a tank and with a proven longer lifespan. As for the suspension we have been trying to get them to upgrade to the readily avail at the same cost heavy axles for years but they wont do it because of all the paper work to change the design specs and TM’s. This along with maitenance training is what is wrong with vehicle dependability. (THE TOP BRASS IGNORING THE SYTEM EXPERTS/OPERATORS)

Correct. The Brass will filter out all those lessons learned from the operators and instead pursue an industry-friendly risky unproven high tech concept such as “Networked Conditioned Based Maintenance”. We’ll get more crap like “let’s be like OnStar” or “NASCAR replaces engines in 5 minutes we can do it to!”

Wow, I’m really surprised by all the naysayers above.

On board monitoring computers have been standard kit for rotary wing aviation for several years now and they work. Instead of learning the hard way that a generator or starter has just failed you at some far off fire base the new system sees the change in vibration or performance and predicts the failure before it happens.

Not having to swap out good components when they still have useful life and learning which components have gone bad before the calender says they’re due for time change is awesome and it saves money.

The amount of paperwork and man hours that goes into tracking Time Before Overhaul items would make your head spin. Having a system that makes most of that unnecessary is worth the investment and gets more maintainers out of the office and into the field where they belong.

This system is not about losing our mechanical know how, its about using technology to improve efficiency.

You can judge a person’s professionalism and crediblity by the degree to which they resort to namecalling and won’t engage in actual discussion of the issues. The “smart” diagnostic systems are LRUs that cost money to develop and take up size, weight, and power resources that could be used to provide or enhance other operational capabilities. The LRUs themselves fail. The embedded software costs money to develop and maintain. Ever had to deal with ambiguity issues from different diagnostic systems?? What I’m saying is that you have to carefully and objectively measures the pros and cons, costs and benefits, of any type of maintenance philosophy that you want to implement. Plus, you too are reducing system maintenance to “remove & replace bad components”. It’s infinitely more complicated, and the design of the system support structure should show appreciation for that.

But there is a big difference between maintenance training of aviation and ground vehicle personnel as well as their operational areas and contrlled maintenance areas. When talking about vehicles you are talking about the operator being able to maintain the vehicle in a fwd deployed dirty area unlike pilots who have ground crews that do the maintannce for them. Just as you cant compare trucks to ships that have all the electronics you can think of which would not work on a combat vehicle either.

Good heavens, man, do you even have the slightest idea how simple all this is ? Assume you have sensors onboard the vehicle monitoring the kinds that happen on your car. These sensors run 24/7. The data is resident in the system. What you have to do — all you have to do — is get it off the local platform and put it in a form that can be read. How you interpret the data, who has control of the data, when you access the data, and what you do with the results — all of these are design features, but we need not paint the system into a corner. The vehicle commander can access this data: so can the motor sergeant, the XO and battalion maintenance. Like any automated system, you have humans in the loop. Well designed software honors what humans do best and gives them control. Honestly, I’m out of patience with these arguments. Just do it.

We are not asking anyone to turn off their brains here. So, you are driving down the road and your “check engine” light comes on. Your experience tells you that nine times out of ten, the sensor has activated, but there is no serious problem, so you keep driving the car. But every time this happens, if you are wise, you look for evidence that it is not just the routine “It has been a while since I’ve been serviced” warning — that your engine really is malfunctioning and the problem could be serious. Not everyone is a shade tree mechanic and we cannot depend on that level of knowledge for many, if not most, of the systems we fight with. If we recalled all the cars whose “check engine” came on too often, people would be riding around in public transportation and buggy whips would be back on the market. Get real.

They want the grubby warrior tank gunners and loaders to perform fault isolation, remove & replace electronics in the field, load software, ops check, and calibrate systems. Inspect for and replace broken/bent pins? Inspect for and fix chafed wiring with wire strippers and heat shrink? Properly tie wrap and clamp secure wire harness to frame to prevent chafing? Don’t forget to test for nuke hardness HEMP and make sure everything’s grounded! Don’t forget to log all this maintenance in the system either. Ridiculous. We need simple, rugged, functional designs that people can depend on in war. Shake out all the high tech concepts in labs and test environments, but don’t promise and count on them to replace war proven fielded systems until they have proven their worth in realistic conditions.

just a moment…just a moment… I’ve just picked up a fault in the AE35 unit. It’s going to go 100% failure within 72 hours. (http://wavcentral.com/scripts/log.msql?id=2887&sound=http://WavCentral.com/sounds/movies/2001/72_hours.mp3)

Luke Skywalker to Emperor: You’re overconfidence is your weakness. Your maintenance concept sounds easy. Put it in the fog & chaos of a realistic test environment and lets see what happens. Plus keep in mind every dollar invested in whatever path you think you can design in perfection is a dollar that could be invested in an alternative path, one designed with KISS and applying lessons learned for continual improvement in mind. I don’t have a problem with exploring your concept. All I’m saying is that I’ve been down this road and maintained a system where contractors made all the promises you are making and making it all sound easy.

“Plus, you too are reducing system maintenance to “remove & replace bad components””

That and PMCS is all that operator level maintenance is. Higher levels of maintenance then repair the broken components and put them back into the system. Those same higher maintenance levels never actually touch the vehicle the component came from.

O-level maintenance is much more than R^2, atleast if you want it done right. See my first reply to Tanker above. It takes a certain mentality and skillset to make a good armor crewman. Electronics maintenance is a completely different world. The more electronics we put into our systems, the greater our already embarassing depending on contractor FSRs will become. I refuse to believe in this concept unless there is a large scale realistic live fire war game that demonstrates this is viable. The Army is free to explore this for all that it’s worth, but this is not ready for prime time integration into a MDAP. We’ll probably end up with something like LandWarrior. Decades & millions/billions blown before someone in authority acknowledges it was a bad idea.

All systems have limitations. All systems malfunction. No one is asking for the design to be excessively complex. No one is saying that the system does not have to be ruggedized to the extent that it will be used in demanding and hostile environments. No one is saying that you will not test the system to failure. You will do all of those things, and more. But if mechanical devices were more accurate and reliable than electronic devices, we’re still be using mechanical range finders on tanks. Miniature sensors are all around us. They work, often with out our knowing about them. In your house, you don’t even notice your smoke detector is on until it goes off, rightly or wrongly. Again, get with the program and just do it.

The Supply Sergeants, vehicle Mechanics Creed, ” Need one, order three, maybe get two. Gotta have spares.

I really think you are selling our young soldiers short here. For one thing, they have grown up with electronic devices, and while the two previous generations may have found it manly to tinker with auto mechanics, these kids have an intuitive grasp of electronics. Now, in the past, maintaining electronic devices has in fact been pluck and chuck. I always felt a little bit sorry my turret mechanics. These were good smart kids, doing little more than using the diagnostic equipment and following what the manual said to do. But on other hand, my communications sergeant was a busy guy. Our radios were crap, and he had to fix them when they broke — often. I don’t accept the notion that armor crewman are all brawn and little brains. They have a need and a duty to keep their system up. Although much maintenance training is procedural, you need to teach these guys the cognitive side of it. Otherwise, they don’t really know what they are doing. That applies to gunnery skills as well as auto mechanics.

I had a platoon sergeant who could do all those things — except for loading software. This guy was borderline autistic, but the best shade tree mechanic I ever saw. I imagine he could learn to load software as well (sarcasm on), but we didn’t have that requirement on the M60 tank. I had guys with GT scores ranging from 80 to 110 — I think the average in 1979 was 96. We can use lazy and sometimes we can use stupid, but in today’s Army, there is no place anymore for lazy and stupid. Especially in the Armor Force, which for some reason, the K Street crowd thinks is appropriately consigned to the reserve components.

DFL, Please wake up. We’ve sold the farm to the contractors. There are dang few true mechanics suppporting the groound forces today. Vehicle broke? Order a part. When asked why the vehicle is broke just say “the parts on order”. While I’m basically in favor of the CBT concept, I don’t think we’re there yet. the one question I keep asking and nobody answers is “How do I know for sure that the diagnostics are not the problem?” Basically how do you troubleshoot the troubleshootinbg hardware/software.

MSG RET 63Z

there is a chasm between what is possible in the commercial world with mil-spec, operationally suitable gear. You are the one that is not with the program. I’m the one that knows how to navigate this stuff through the fed govt. You don’t even have an appreciation for it.

nope just being realistic. The Army does too much of this operator/maintainer BS. It is very wise to have clear descriptions of functional specialties. Expecting too much “pentathletism” from systems & peoples is a recipe for disaster. “these kids have an intuitive grasp of electronics” Let’s add “generalization” to your list of cognitive shortcomings.

Condition-based maintenance might help the cause of convincing brass to upgrade components. Such systems will generate logs and other data that can be analyzed and used as evidence to back up operators’ and maintainers’ claims of underpowered engines, transmissions which fall apart, etc. Managers, whether military or civilian, love to measure.

That, quite frankly, is a self-inflicted wound. What you are saying, in effect, is that onboard diagnostic sensors, subject to milspec, extensively designed and document, ruggedized and thoroughly tested, is inherently inferior tp what private industry does all by itself in the free market. Guys like you continue to preach that we can never trust the contractors, that nothing ever works, that we just have to accept second-rate Soviet-style technology, because that’s just the way it is. Do you really expect the readers of this site to buy that argument ?

No. Because that’s not my argument. Think so more about it. In the meantime i’ll get back to steering systems through necessary verifications, and helping professionals (real professionals wouldn’t fear transparency and process discipline) make better decisions through scientific forescasting of future possibilities, as opposed to getting suckered into inadvisable COAs by biased, profit motivated, unscrupulous salesmen. That’s never happened before now has it? Before you resort back to the straw man, let me assure you I have no ill-will towards industry in general. Organizations that produce quality products that meet spec, play by all the rules, act IAW stated corporate values, walk their talk, etc. deserve all negotiated fees and I wish them all the success in the world.

The Marine Corps tried this 5–6 years ago; Autonomic Logistics; couldn’t find a home on any of the conventional vehicles; now it is re-packaged into Enhanced Position Locator System and the hard sell is on the MRAP; no surprise, they are the program with all the money! My 2-cents, if the Maint guys continue to do the PMCS all will be fine; this is more “techno crap” that costs a fortune to fix.

If the combat systems have electronic health monitoring, then their ability to support a mission can be immediately judged and integrated across the force to help in rapid planning, and to speed up the logistics pipeline.

Just wanted to say that the commerical trucking industry has been using these kinds of devices for several years. Yes I’m aware that military trucks are not the same thing as commercial trucks, but they are more similar than not with respect to engines and components.

Hell they even have basic stuff on cars now . Last month the rental car i had gave me a message that the tire pressure was low in one of my tires, good thing too cause’ i was getting ready to get on the highway.

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