CSBA: Our weapons mix is ‘out of whack’

CSBA: Our weapons mix is ‘out of whack’

The Pentagon must continue to tweak its weapons mix if it wants to meet the military challenges of this century, a member of an influential think tank told an audience of field grade (and at least one general) Air Force officers today.

Discussing the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Analysis new operating concept for dealing with an increasingly well-armed Iran at the Air Force Association’s headquarters, CSBA’s Mark Gunzinger said the Pentagon needs to buy more survivable long-range strike and ISR gear while trimming spending on weapons that may not be in high-demand in the coming years.

Citing the increasing numbers of countries such as China and, specifically Iran that are building their abilities to strike enemy bases and aircraft carriers near their borders Gunzinger asked:


What are the implications if we don’t have close-in bases? Obviously, our shorter range capabilities will have a great challenge to overcome, and we’re not just talking about land-based, we’re talking about sea-based. What if our carriers can’t get within 300 nautical miles, 400 nautical miles of Iran in the future? If they’re equipped with short-range fighters, F-35C, they’re not going to have a lot of coverage inside Iran.”

As I’ve said before, CSBA’s ideas and recommendations frequently tie in closely with what becomes Pentagon strategy and policy, so it’s always a good idea to pay attention to what the K Street-based think tank is saying.

Given that CSBA’s ideas of Air Sea Battle — which its Iranian concept is based — call for long-range penetrating strikes that take out heavily defended command, control and ISR infrastructure — a “kill the archer not the arrows” approach, as one of Gunzinger’s slides read — small, slow and unstealthy weapons will have less use on the modern battlefield than they have over the last three decades. He then listed the categories where the Air Force, Navy and ground forces can invest in:

I haven’t got any argument’s as we’ve briefed this about the fact that we need to adjust our mix of long-range and short-range capabilities, and I’m not just talking about the mix of fighters and bombers, I’m also talking about UAVs. We need to take a hard look at our UAV force. The majority of our UAVs are optimized for what? Operating in very permissive environments, they’re not stealthy and a lot of them don’t have great range and that’s a part of the mix we might want to adjust to our more sophisticated and advanced unmanned capabilities with greater stealth.

He went on to suggest that the ground forces invest more money in long range weapons like MGM-140 ATACMS and directed energy missile defense and that the Navy seek to buy Virginia class submarines modified to carry a large number of Tomahawk cruise missiles to replace the aging Ohio class guided missile submarines.

He then moved on to discussing where the Pentagon should do more trimming before circling back to where the DoD should invest:

We simply can’t continue to throw money at problems and hope to solve them that way because the money’s not going to be there. One of the main reasons why the U.S. military developed new concepts like Air Sea Battle and Outside In, is to provide new lenses to take a look at challenges and what the capabilities are that we need to address those challenges, not just prime capability gaps but where we may have invested too much or where need to accept more risk, and there are some areas where we would all agree we might want to do that in the future in order to resource higher priority capabilities.

 

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Agreed more Ohio and LA sub upgraded while more Virgina class and new SBSS subs can be supplied. More F-22 Raptors and F-15 upgrades are needed. Have the F-35 replace the F-16 and 18 Scrap the stupid ICC JLTV and GCV which are about fighting Iraq all over again forget it. More strategic weapons are needed.

Apparently the one thing we can afford to continue is the policy of paying our contractors more to fail. What difference does it make if you intend to build long range or short range weapons if all we’re going to do is pay a contractor to drag out the program for 2 or 3 decades and at the end not build a damn thing. Or maybe we’ll buy 20 like we did with the B-2.

Wait, what did the contractor have to do with the decision to cut the B-2 back to 20 examples?

The A2/AD and Outside-In Advocates seem oblivious to the concept of aerial refueling. They show slides depicting only fighters from Turkey and outside the Straits of Hormuz able to reach Iran. Meanwhile if we use Desert Storm and OIF/OEF as an example, there would be hundreds of aerial refuelers over Saudi Arabia and Pakistan providing support so that F-22s and F-35s could bomb the entire of Iran.

Considering the cost of soon to be discontinued Global Hawks, its hard to envision a cost-effective stealth UAS loitering over China…where J-20s would make short work of them since they would be unescorted and some aspect of them would be detectable or visually evident. Nevermind that UAS could not find SCUDs in OIF in far more open terrain than China. Do they believe the Chinese would never use those 3000 miles of tunnels and the hugging of civilian cities to disguise those TBM?

actually, our problem is also that our missiles including our land-based ICBMs, tomahawk cruise missiles and antiship missiles are outdated and need to be replaced with more effective and survivable systems. Tacair and forward airbases are very vulnerable and money should be directed away from it. Nevertheless, investing in long-range strike is very expensive and not financially feasible without tax increases which the GOP rules out thus gutting our miltary.

If long range strike is what is needed then fund and develop the FB-22 Strike Raptor.…

2000 NM combat radius
Parts Commonality with the F-22
Established Operational Experience & Production-Logistics-Maintenance Support
Rapid Development and Deployment Time

The Next Gen Bomber pictured with the article is a noble cause but probably not possible in Austerity America, go with what is actually possible if the USAF and Congress are willing to act…

You mean 2500 F-35s aren’t helpful in the western Pacific? No way.

The SB-22 is dead long before 2012. A F-15SE would be better the FB-22 was killed years ago not going to happen.

I believe the USAF has said they would cut other programs to fund the NGB. The air force has this as one of, if not their most important priority right now.

The NGB was mentioned in the just released defense strategy policy about 2 weeks ago more or less by name. I think that pretty clearly spells out where the $ is going.

Here’s the problem. Every country is figuring out that they have to bury their strategic assets in mountains to be safe from America’s air power. The types of bombs (like the MOP GBU-57A/B) required to penetrate mountains can be carried ONLY by heavy bombers.
I think the NGB is also necessary because the vulnerabilities of forward bases and carriers. Forward air bases can be made inoperable in less than 30 minutes with ballistic missile strikes, and possibly our carriers, as well. Even if the Chinese ASBM’s can be neutralized with countermeasures, do you think we’re going to try to get in close while coming under fire from them, if we don’t know for sure? I think we would be waiting days or weeks to neutralize them on the ground or to take out their tracking satellites. So, what do we need to have until then? The NGB.
And, yes, the defense contractors are going to rape us.
The defense contractors may be a bigger threat to national defense than Chinese ASBM’s. I remember during the Reagan defense build up we got a lot for our money and things went reasonably well. Yes, there was corruption, but nothing like today. What did we get during the Bush W. buildup??? We don’t have much to show for the amount of money we spent. I don’t even need to explain to regular defense blog readers. Look at the PATTERN of low-balling followed by cost over runs, production delays and just problem after problem after problem. They have made a mockery of Nunn-McCurdy.

I think programs like Prompt Global Strike is a perfect example of the Pentagon’s realignment towards long-range strategic capabilities.

Hire and fire mentality, outsourcing, only promoting MBAs, large defense companies have killed engineering as a career. It shows — we get lousy engineering.

Guest is completely correct. DOD primes are no longer engineering firms, they are management and sales firms. That would be OK if they were capable of managing engineers but that skill does not take an MBA, it takes a degree in early education, a ton of patience and enough actual knowledge to be dangerous. JBJ is correct also except that DOD primes are already raping us. We pay more, get less and partisan political money and pork allow this. The only thing with as rotten a management cost to delivery cost ratio as DOD acquisition is healthcare — also completely broken in this country.

When, as far as the DoD customer is concerned, the most important engineering tool is PowerPoint and not a sliderule.… you get what you pay for.… and pay for.…. and pay for.… .

Engineers (at least good ones, and I, along with many that I know, try very hard to deserve being placed in that category!) are not politicians! Furthermore, we have plenty of examples to prove that the converse is no more correct!

The contractor sold the Air Force on a set of capabilities that could be had for a price the USAF decided they could afford. Turns out (surprise) they had exaggerated a bit, and the actual price wasn’t affordable. So they only bought a handful. See also F-22, Global Hawk, JTRS GMR, etc. etc.

The services pretty much never radically reduce the quantity because they decide they didn’t want that capability after all. They do it because they can’t have the capability they were sold, or the price for it climbed significantly from the original estimate, or both.

Wrong… President George Bush the First was the decision maker on the 20 B-2 purchase. This was because he thought “…imperial Communism is dead…”, and the savings from canceling the basing plan of the whole purchase (130+ aircraft) could be put to a better use in the USA. The USAF told the president 20 airplanes was not enough, and it would be better not to purchase and base any B-2s. I think Bush’s response to USAF/DoD was “… you’ll take 20 B-2 aircraft and like it!” Production parts for 20 aircraft was already finished, so he stopped production at 20 B-2s, plus spare parts.

Oh, and in the above article, it mentions we should go to Directed Energy Missile Defense Systems. Keep in mind the Airborne Laser program successfully shot down 2 missiles with a mega-watt class laser in 2010: one of those missiles was a Foreign Military Asset missile. We are now canceling the Airborne Laser R&D program, and the aircraft is to be cut up into pieces. All of the cutting edge technology in optics, jitter control, and COIL, gone. GO USA!!!

Engineers are the victims in the entire acquisition problem. I have never seen as many unhappy technologists as I have in the last 3 years. Senior members, technical staff can’t get out because there are no replacements, younger guys are so focused on getting thier MBA’s they can’t contribute on a discovery level. I would propose that the DOD is contributory to the STEM challenge in this country, not a viable option for those engaged in STEM endeavors. Argon, JPL, MIT, APL now derive so much of their earnings from the DOD that where does a young person go besides academia?

The problem is perhaps even more insidious than you suggest. Within DoD (and the rest of the high-tech government acqusition world!), the engineers are expected to “monitor the contractor”, which on one hand means that any competancies that they have atrophy from disuse, and worse, if they ever actually find something from the contractor that is WRONG, they catch the blame for disrupting the managerial mantra of CPI and SPI.

From the contractor side, the engineers quickly learn that they must provide the “right” answers almost without regard to the unfortunate technical facts, if they are to be granted future contracts! In either case, as you suggest, its the MBA and a willingness to “get along by going along” that gets you ahead. Now toss the political appointees, and those that aspire to that lofty pinaccle of success.… and the current state of technical impotence is not all that surprising!

Its different in some small niches, but.… . . if you have been in the business for a while, please tell me that Im wrong!

I think that there were still some serious technical challenges before the ABL would have become a truely viable weapon system, but.… those were engineering details, the science of firing a high powered laser from an airborne platform at a rapidly accelerating, high-crossing rate, target at tactically significant ranges had been solved.

Its a shame; AND if, as you suggest, the aircraft is going to be “cut up”, verging on ridiculous if not criminal! Id think that parking it in the boneyard at Edwards (or at Mohave) might make a lot of sense in the long run. (Shoot, but Ive even kept my narrow ties and white leisure suits on the outside chance.… . . oh. .. nevermind!)

Well the true gods are the senior program managers for contractors. Primarily because they are composed of either very, very smart managing engineers or ex-mil engineers hired away or post muster. They make or break any program via their interpretation of technical need and application of manpower to achieve that need. The problem is that by default they are one step at least removed from discovery on the engineering side no matter how smart. Accordingly, they may shoot high for what is “sold” to the DoD or shoot high on what their employer can achieve, both resulting in delays and cost over-runs. The JSF is a spectacular example. The killer on this program has been quite simple: rf technology and FO interconnect technology has evolved faster than the subs could master it, hence delay, re-spec, repeat. BUT that has not stopped the Primes from promising it…

It is different in some niches — those technologies close to commercial validity tend to function more smoothly because of the larger pool of existing expertise. Conversely, the less likely a technology is to achieve validity for a program need, the more likely it is to move ahead and become useful “organically” as in: please leave us alone to think, I’m sorry you won’t be needing this but someone will… Although I have not seen it, a friend told me that JTRS had over 6000 individual specs when fully spec’ed. Way to go army, but lets blame the Prime there as well, they have a huge manufacturing operation in the SE US that needs to build things and they do virtually no commercial work anymore.

Let’s not forget we’re also killing the USN’s research on free electron lasers and railguns. GO USA!!!

Yes there were challenges. I wonder how the politicians think those challenges are suppose to be overcome if we quit? I guess they’ll just wave their hands at some point in the future and voila, all problems solved. Idiots.

It is not about MBAs or Engineers — it is the Capitalism. Vendors are businesses and businesses, under Capitalism, must maximize profit. You can put an engineer to lead a defense contractor, the result will be the same.

I agree and wonder why the military doesn’t build their OWN weapons.

Stick with the proven F-15 better range, payload, speed, price. Plus we already have the logistics and training in place.

LoL! You say “idiots”, I say “politicians” and I would not give you a plug nickel for the difference! And you are exactly right that eventually the challenges will need to be faced; but I suspect that they viewed those as too challenging for “their watch”!Sent from my iPhone

LOL! I have certainly met my share of PM’s, senior and otherwise who placed themselves above mere mortals! Could that be part of the problem? Doh!!!!!!Sent from my iPhone

I don’t want to fly an F-15 through a modern IADS, do you?

Let’s use the Hyper Falcon to take care of the underground bunkers. Another option could be the Orbital Test Vehicle dropping a kinetic weapon out of its bay. This would save the time and effort on developing a long range bomber. Once the command and control centers are dealt with, shorter range carrier based airplanes can take over.

It is about training, managing, and motivating engineers for decades. Thousands of engineers. Once management says, all engineers are interchangeable, we want the cheapest (fewest years experience) engineers, not the best, it is all over.
The problem with the MBA is that these people feel empowered to manage something they know absolutely nothing about. Now make all your senior managers MBAs, well, we can see the results.

Perhaps today, you are right. On the other hand, once organizations that provided the technical wherewithall for the military were led by men like Ben Rich and Kelly Johnston. ‘Nuff said!

NO, but then I would not want to fly an F-22 or an F-35 through a modern IADS any more than absolutely necessary either. Id think that an intelligent approach would “roll back” the IADS very much like what was done to Saddam’s air defenses during Desert Storm.

I’ve also got that uncanny prickly feeling that if today’s commanders fail to use sound tactics while blindly believing their own “Congressional sales pitches” for the invulnerability of the “stealthy” attack planes.… . we will relearn some very hard, and very expensive lessons. Reduced signature makes a lot of sense and brings a very useful tool to the table, but its not an excuse for bad tactics. Flying through an IADS for the fun of it is solidly in the realm of BAD TACTICS.

Better to pay a defense contractor more to drag out development and jack the cost of the weapon through the roof than to build their own weapons. If they built their own weapons, there would be no CEO to make millions/year on the back of the US taxpayer. As we all know, there had to be a CEO that makes more in a day than the average taxpayer makes in a year, otherwise the weapon is no good. Just ask NASA employee Werner Von Braun.

It is all about capitalism. We put the capitalist profit incentives in place so that a defense contractor makes more money if they drag out development. It doesn’t take a crack bunch of engineering geniuses to do that. Hell no! The defense contractor that wants to really drag out development hires plenty of morons to f things up. MBA’s being the richest source of morons, how could the resist hiring and promoting a bunch of those?

But…. think of how many more bailouts and handouts can be financed now! I must be getting very cynical in my old age.

You have got to remember that Von Braun did not BUILD much of anything after he escaped from Peenemunde, and even there his labor force was out of the slave labor camps. What he did do through was to provide the design concepts and the technical direction to a bunch of US manufacturers that ended up producing the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs. Chrysler built the Jupiter missile and Convair built the Atlas used in Mercury. Martin Marietta had the Titan for Gemini, while the Saturn was a product of Boeing, North American and Douglas.

Contractors played a very vital role in the US space program and should be proud of that. Dont try to hang the mouse on todays contractors either. They will do whatever they are paid to do, just as with the Von Braun team. In the case of Von Braun though, they had a very technically savvy team directing their efforts and monitoring their progress. Could THAT perhaps be where the finger needs to point today? :-)

You do understand English, right? So when I say that we pay a contractor more to drag out DEVELOPMENT, that does not mean our procurement system pays them more to drag out BUILDing weapons. I’d hate to think you were putting words in my mouth just to confuse taxpayers who are pissed off about how the government is wasting their tax dollars.

Look at engineers the way the defense contractors look at them. If you hire a good engineer and let him do his job, he gets the weapon designed as quickly as possible and puts the most effective weapon he can design in the hands of the military customer — that is to say, he causes the company to lose money! If they hire Yo Moron and promote him properly, he/she/it can get in the way of any good work engineers try to do and cause confusion, anger, and general chaos. This maximizes the profit the contractor makes. So now, if you’re a defense contractor, who do you hire and promote? The good engineer who causes you to lose money or the abject idiot? Clearly you’re in business to make money so you hire and promote as many idiots as you can find that meet the technical definition of “engineer” as far as your customer knows, right? The big money does not, therefore, go to keeping good engineers happy. Instead it goes to the CEO who leads the lobbying charge to perpetuate the crappy system by which This scam is not that hard to figure out. It certainly isn’t rocket science.

Last I checked, I speak, read, and write English at least to the level that I can functionally communicate. My skills certainly could be improved, but as an engineer I dont think I need to be up to the standards of some of the novelists around here! :-)

Furthermore, I would NEVER think to put words in your mouth, and Verstehen Sie Englisch? :-) The contractor teams DEVELOPED and PRODUCED the referenced rockets, with a lot of technical assistance from the team of NASA German scientists. And yes the taxpayers SHOULD be upset when the government (not just the military!) wastes their tax dollars. The issue is to a great degree with WHOM should they be pissed!

And at least in my humble opinion there is more than enough blame to be spread far and wide. Start with the elected officials in Congress who’s #1 agenda is to make sure that they have some sound bites for the next campaign with “pork” programs. Add in the government procurement agencies that featherbed the organizational structure and pile on administrativia, and gold plate the procurement requirements, AND insure that they are never held accountable. Toss in the contracting community who’s performance sometimes ranges from outtright fraud to simply following the lead of the procurers, to the watchdog agencies that sit, watch and do nothing to fix the problems. Its not just the lying, cheating, stealing contractors, Doroth..… er.… Dfens, its the whole process, end to end, and THAT my friend includes all of us in the system!

Von Braun designed the Saturn V. Revise the great history of your beloved Soviet Union if you want, but leave American history alone!

ROTFLMAO! Afraid that my ancestry and allegiances are pretty solidly American. One ancestor stepped off of the boat at Jamestown as an endentured servant in the late 1620s and on the other side of the family an ancester was actually from Siberia, but they have been here for around 12000 years or so! :-). Suggestions of other allegiances would violate an oath that Ive taken many times over the last 30 years and verge on what is normally called “fighting words”. Im thinking that as such, they probably are not all that acceptable under the rules of engagement for this forum. :-) Adieu, mon ami!

Aside from the unpleasantness with respect to my allegiances, lets take a look at some good ole American History as recorded by NASA itself! :-)
http://​history​.nasa​.gov/​m​o​n​o​g​r​a​p​h​4​5​.​pdf

Von Braun certainly was the father of the concept, and midwife to the birth of the Saturn V, but to an engineer, the concept is not the design. The design work is what happens once the concept is clear and someone has to make the elements of that concept work. The above article is a discussion with many of the people who actually took Von Brauns ideas and turn them into hardware.

More misinformation, comrade? We have seen what NASA can do when they pay a contractor more to screw up. After all, NASA lead the way in that kind of contracting. It took Rockwell 10 years to design and build the shuttle after Von Braun had designed a host of prototypes, the Saturn 2 and the Saturn V in the same amount of time. Rockwell’s abortion kept our manned space program from exceeding the bounds of low earth orbit for 30 years AFTER Von Braun’s Saturn V had made the voyage to the moon seem like a walk in the park.

Anyone who believed in the power of capitalism would believe that paying a contractor a profit incentive to f up would result in the most creative methods for f’ing up ever, which is exactly what we see our current defense contractors doing now. There are many options, many other ways to do business that does not involve paying a profit incentive for stupidity.

I totally agree with your basic premise, i.e. that the US taxpayer should not be footing the bill for inefficiencies or even incompentancies on the part of the government contractors. The evidence you offer to support that view is just not valid. Sorry.

My evidence being that when Von Braun designed rockets for NASA they, what, didn’t work. Everything worked better when Rockwell designed their nifty shuttle that kept manned space flight stuck in low earth orbit for 30 years? You are welcome to believe that, but no one else does.

I believe that the Shuttle was the single biggest disaster for US space operations imaginable, and that would not even consider the two “accidents”. It was a total “dead end” of limiting technologies and political “bombast” that cost NASA and the US space effort dearly as it sucked the funding and tossed a great wet blanket on any thoughts or truely innovative spaceflight.

That does not change the fact that Von Braun and his crew were a very capable, very insightful group of thinkers that TOTALLY conceived the US space program of the 60’s and early 70’s. The point of contention is the word “designed”. Conceived? Without a single doubt! Did they do the “down and dirty” detailed DESIGN work? Nope. And Im thinking that even today, those very intelligent and forward-looking engineers would NOT be willing to accept the credits for the design work that they did not actually do. Although I do know of many current PMs that will attest to their having “designed” many different pieces of equipment, I dont think that the Germans would have.

Not sure what the hangup is? Is it just with the definition of the word “designed”?

Maybe your problem is that you don’t know what it means to design a rocket.

Could be. Only spent a few years working on booster avionics for good ole Martin Marietta out in the “Watertown Canyon” west of Denver. :-) And THERE my idea of design was formed more around construction drawings, and the component engineering/testing that went into them, than concept drawings.

I think that we have run this line of invective far too far underground, so… CU! :-)

There is a reason why some vehicles are more than the sum of their parts and others confound the efforts of even the best part designers to remain perpetual pieces of crap. It takes good work at all levels to design a good vehicle, but if the top level design is crap, there’s no fixing the vehicle that results. If the top level of design is good, then even a design that gets a rough start can be hammered into a great vehicle. It is a shame that we have forgotten these expensive lessons in engineering today.

Just go to this guys website, take some time to read through, his thoughts make this generals look childish!
aviationintel​.com

It appears to me that the intention of this report is being warped by politicians with agendas. By putting in the teaser at the very end — implying that there is in fact a trade between close-in and long-range capabilities, CBSA managed to drown out the portions of the report that assert precisely the opposite. It is still, in my view, too defensive, as if the US would offer the Iranians a sanctuary in Iran if they struck first. Don’t think it would work out that way. All the options, from deterrence to missile defense, have this passive character.

All the services are in a mad headlong rush away from anything that looks like a farmer with a bag of fertilizer and a detonator. Exactly the same thing happened after the defeat in Vietnam.

The air-force and navy only want to fight wars where millions of Americans will die in a nuclear Holocaust, the army is optimizing to get out of anywhere as fast as possible while the ever simple marines grand plan is to concentrate on just staying on their boats.

None of the services are adverse to doing a bit of an operation here or there, as long as the casualty risks are minimal, and winning isn’t required.

60 years of too much money has created a bloated bureaucracy that cannot even defeat the poorest nations , optimised for nothing else then spending more money.

or LRASM outta supadupa DARPA-LOCKMART

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