Report adds still more gloom to Navy ship outlook

Report adds still more gloom to Navy ship outlook

The Navy faces a range of steep technical and funding challenges in trying to reach what once was billed as an easier, less expensive goal for upgrading its destroyer fleet, Congress’ watchdog agency reported Tuesday.

The fleet’s restarted Flight IIA Arleigh Burke-class destroyers are going to be more expensive than their predecessors, concluded the Government Accountability Office, as will the Flight III follow-on — which also could be much tougher to design and build. Tomorrow’s planned Air and Missile Defense Radar will push the 1980s-era Burke hull past its limits, GAO warns, and the Navy may have to make a lot of sacrifices to shoehorn it on there.

Service officials are debating between a new radar with 12-foot arrays or one with 14-foot arrays. Both concepts require more power and cooling than today’s DDG 51s can generate, meaning they’d need to cram more support equipment aboard, and they also will add significant amounts of new weight. The new radars and their supporting systems mean designers must increase the ships’ “design density” — in other words, their complexity — which could cause a lot of problems, GAO concludes. The Navy might have to remove weapons or other equipment to free up weight, giving tomorrow’s DDGs less of a punch, “effectively reducing the multi-mission functionality of the class.”


Just building them could be tough, the report said:

Not only can density complicate design of the ship as equipment needs to be rearranged to fit in new items, but Navy data also show that construction of dense vessels tends to be more costly than construction of vessels with more open space. For example, submarine designs are more complicated to arrange and the vessels are more complicated and costly to build than many surface ships. DDG 1000 was designed in part to have reduced density, which could help lower construction costs. According to a 2005 independent study of U.S. naval shipbuilding, any incremental increase in the complexity of an already complex vessel results in a disproportionate increase in work for the shipbuilder, and concluded that cost, technical and schedule risk, and the probability of cost and schedule overrun all increase with vessel density and complexity. Therefore, further adding to the density of DDG 51 to incorporate AMDR is likely to result in higher construction costs and longer construction schedules than on Flight IIA ships.

The submarine force got really frustrated with its highly complex three-hull Seawolf class, and one of the reasons it loves its Virginia-class boats is they’re much simpler to build and maintain. As you read, the surface force also learned this lesson on DDG 1000, but with that ship also truncated at three copies, it doesn’t help tomorrow’s shipbuilders or sailors.

Big Navy does not get a very flattering depiction in GAO’s latest report. When investigators worried that Flight III would exceed the DDG 51 hull’s service life allowance — the amount of load its hull can safely bear over the ship’s design life — Navy officials said, aaah, that’s not that big of a deal. GAO then ginned up a table describing cases in which over-loaded hulls have caused the surface force problems before:

Adding Aegis to the Spruance-class destroyer hull to create the Ticonderoga-class cruisers has led to cracking and buckling in the ships’ superstructures — a well-known deformation in the fleet. The ships in the fleet today need “structural modernization” to get them to serve for the Navy’s goal of 35 years apiece. As for the Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates, low growth margin meant the ships were maxed out of potential upgrades, and 21 of 49 “have been retired early after an average lifespan of only 17 years.”

All right, Big Navy said, but look, we might go with a smaller 12-foot radar array, which would help with the hull load situation. OK, said GAO, but by your own metrics, that would provide less capability than “marginally adequate” for the scenarios you’ve envisioned in tomorrow’s battle space. What’s the deal? Oh, don’t worry about that, Big Navy responds:

[T]he Navy now envisions multiple ships that they can operate in concert with different ground and space-based sensor assets to provide cueing for AMDR when targets are in the battlespace …  However, this program (envisioned as a constellation of missile tracking satellites) is currently in the conceptual phase, and the independent Radar/Hull Study red team stated that the development timeline for this system is too long to consider being able to leverage this system for Flight III.

Yes — it’s the old “system of systems” concept — oh, sorry, “family of systems,” as we say now. How… transformational. GAO goes on:

Senior Navy officials told us that the concept of sensor netting is not yet well defined, and that additional analysis is required to determine what sensor capabilities currently exist or will be developed in the future, as well as how sensor netting might be conceptualized for Flight III. Sensor netting requires not only deployment of the appropriate sensors and for these sensors to work alone, but they also need to be able to share usable data in real-time with Aegis in the precise manner required to support BMD engagements. Though sharing data among multiple sensors can provide greater capabilities than just using individual stand– alone sensors, officials told us that every sensor system has varying limitations on its accuracy, and as more sensors are networked together and sharing data, these accuracy limitations can compound. Further, though there have been recent successes in sharing data during BMD testing, DOD weapons testers responsible for overseeing BMD testing told us that there have also been issues with sending data between sensors. Although sensor technology will undoubtedly evolve in the future, how sensor netting will be leveraged by Flight III and integrated with Navy tactics to augment Aegis and the radar capability of Flight III is unknown.

Keep in mind that the original concept here was that the Navy would take a stable, proven design — its workhorse DDG 51 — and just bolt on some wham-o-dyne new accessories to get improved new copies at an affordable price. Now the Navy apparently has two choices: A middling upgrade that relies on an as-yet uninvented new form of battle space sensor fusion, and a better system that its ships might not be able to handle.

Still reading? Thanks for sticking with it — here’s the point: All this technical risk and uncertainty in the centerpiece of the Navy’s long-term shipbuilding plans does not help the odds it will close the projected shortfall in its number of large surface combatants, as we heard about at the Surface Navy Association show. The Navy does not plan to buy a new-model destroyer, given the placeholder name “Flight IV,” until 2032. Until then, this DDG 51 plan is it for large warships. If it doesn’t pay off or starts to slip, tomorrow’s fleet could wind up short that many more combatants.

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Ok Navy listen up, we need warships today, not 10 years from now.

Forget about trying to squeeze “flight III” stuff on board, it won’t work, stick with what works and let’s get going

here’s what you do, go with the flight IIA design but add:
–CIWS/SeaRam on both ends, (like the flight I has)
–add Harpoon back on, there’s room on either side of the stack (O-2 level?) for the launchers (what good is a destroyer if it can “destroy” other ships)
–add AN/SQR-19 Towed Array back on, lengthen the fantail by 10 feet if you need to (what good is a destroyer if it can’t find submarines)

this will give us what we need without much more cost than the last Burke we built

we’ll call this flight IIB, and it’ll be the last Burke version, we’ll build 10–12 of these
the shipyard with the best quality and cost control wins the total contract-fixed price (Bath?)

and in the meantime, we’ll be designing it’s replacement or building more DDG-1000 and we’ll be designing the replacement for the Tico’s (hopefully nuclear powered).

and we’ll cancel the LCS program outright and use those monies to do critical maintenance to get our force
back up to 100% (what good is a destroyer that has critical casreps)

you’re got your orders, now move out :-D

Maybe it’s time that the US Navy realize the Frigate Gap and that if the LCS dose come up short, then the US Navy is going to have to start Frigate shopping again. I think they should have killed the LCS anyway and have gone with a European Frigate design such as Fridtjof Nansen class frigate,De Zeven Provinciën class frigate,De Zeven Provinciën class frigate,Formidable class frigate,Valour class frigate or the FREMM multipurpose frigate. Have it built in US Shipyards as well.

Or a hybrid of the Absalon class support ship and Iver Huitfeldt class frigate made by the Danes.

Do you think it would be feasible for the Zumwalts to be nuclear powered considering how much fuel will cost in the next decade and beyond?

ha ha, we haven’t had a “Frigate” since they de-fanged the Perry class years ago, since that time we’ve only had very large gunboats

yes, it may time for the UNTHINKABLE. We may have to buy a foreign design since we can’t see to get our act together and everything we’ve done lately cost 100X more than original estimates and it doesn’t work (the exception being the Virginia class subs).

Even if we start the frigate replacement design now, we won’t actually see a new frigate for 20 years and when we do it’ll be 10,000 tons, 600 ft long, and cost $10 billion a piece and it’ll have a single weapon/gun a.k.a. LCS style, but it’ll have a very powerful power point projector which will dazzel and frighten our enemies with our slogans and mataphors.

That’s what I was thinking as well, I would order the US navy to seriously look into buying the Absalon class support ship and Iver Huitfeldt class frigate. Even bringing one over to the US for a Test Drive.

YES, I believe we really need to start doing nuclear cruisers/destroyers again. The advantages are many

–new nuclear plant design will last the lifetime of the ship, no need for refueling
–new nuc plant designs are easier to maintain and require fewer watch standers and maintenance
–cruisers need to be nuc powered so that then can “sprint” with the carrier when the need arises
without worrying about fuel or where the oilers are.
–if the carriers escorts are nuc powered, then that give the CBG commander many more options, i.e. he can run at high speeds for long periods of time if he wants/needs to.
–obviously, nuc plant give out a lot of power and will be suited platform for future laser/electronic
weapons
–lastly, it will reduce our oil dependance

disadvantages:
–build costs are higher, but lifetime costs will be lower
–requires high shipyard skills

Be better now to scrap the LCS and use the funds for DDG 1000 and DDG 51 upgrades for now and leave LCS on the back burner for now.

good god, I mean what is wrong with the Zumwalt? These new Burke class ships don’t even have Anti Ship missiles and they don’t have enough power for the new radars that the Navy is trying to stuff on them. The Zumwalt is DESIGNED with these kind of improvements in mind. I wonder what happens when the tree Zumwalts planned end up blow the Burkes out the water in wargames, due to them actually having Ship to ship missiles, being alot more stealthy and having better radars.

Zumwalt’s can’t do ABM and that is the big mission for the Burke’s. Before it’s all said and done who knows, they may build more DDG1000s, who knows. Clearly the USN is going to very shortly be forced into blunt hard decisions.

One more disadvantage of a nuclear reactor is its retirement cost. The retirement cost is usually as high as a new reactor.

The Spruance and Ticonderoga classes shared much hull commonality, where the Ticonderoga had additional lengths of hull to accomodate its armament. Does anyone know if Arleigh Burke class hull design is modular enough to support the addition of extra middle hull sections that would lengthen the overall ship but allow for the accomodation of this new radar system? In that way they could retain density of design and make the 14′ radar a more self contained modular addition; the flight IIIs and flight IVs would have the larger arrays and flight IIs just make due with the smaller 12′ array upgrade.

Id bet that the Burkes are no more or less “built for expansion” than the Spruances. Building a ship cost money and that cost, at least for the hull, can just about be measured by the tons of steel incorporated. It would make little sense in the DoD budget to design and build a hull with extra robustness UNLESS a “stretch version” was pre-planned. The Ticos and the USCG upgraded Island class cutters are pretty much standard fare when you try to “after the fact” simply extend a existing design for a ship’s hull. It just does not work well….…and is very rarely simple.

And the Zumwalts are not exactly the biggest gorilla in the valley when it comes to surface action either! Those 155mm guns are obviously better than a basic 5″, and the two 57mm can be very useful in close, but.… compared to a small missile boat loaded with Sunburns.… :-)

And be very careful about what you might assume to go into those VLS tubes on Zumwalts and with any additional assumptions about the “simple” modifications to allow for more options.

Anyway, you would not want to make a DD (that is as big in sillouette as a battleship) appear to be overtly “dangerous” or anything by putting too much offensive ordnance onboard! ROTFLMAO or perhaps just laughing so that I dont cry!

ERrrr.… I believe that last proposed weapon you mention is already specifically prohibited by the Geneva Accords as a device intentionally designed to blind the enemy and numb their minds.. :-)

That gigantic deckhouse that each Zumwalt will sport, are quite stealthy from everything posted in the past 3 years of testing it. Navy brought it out here to California and tested the deckhouse a few years ago and it really is very radar stealthy, as the Navy has stated in their various PR releases.

(but don’t forget that the deckhouse is made out of steel, aluminum, composites and an awful lot of thick balsa wood). I think it’s really a peacetime experiment just so the many bureaucrats can do RDT&E on their latest ideas that they dream up while spending 30 year careers ashore in cubicles. It’s really no more a warship than an LCS, which at least don’t have balsa wood deckhouses !

And I guess that if it were not for the Royal Navy’s total superiority in RCS control, Nelson would never have been able to defeat the combined French and Spanish battle line at Trafalgar! ROTFL!

Stealth is one of those very funny things. Just because we control the RCS we imagine that the ship is INVISIBLE! Exactly like the square riggers of a past era, if the Zumwalt is on the horizon (or for that matter within eyesight!) it will be very hard to miss with the Mk.1 Mod 0 eyeball, Since a solid radar track is not required, a broadside of 16-, 32-, and 64-lb solid shot flying from the vast cloud of gunsmoke issuing from the Santissima Trinidad would make a terrible mess out of that deckhouse (as would a salvo of 107mm rockets or a few RPGs, which dont need radar guidance either! LOL!!).

Another disadvantage is the possibility of a major ecological disaster if the reactor is damaged in battle. This is less of an issue with the CVNs due to the number of escorts surrounding her, but when virtually every ship in a carrier battle group is carrying a nuclear reactor on board it becomes a valid concern. What would the consequences of attacks on the USS Cole or HMS Sheffield (or for that matter, the ARA General Belgrano) have been if they were nuclear powered?

For a modern US Frigate design the Europeans offer a variety of very capable designs. However, US requirements/missions may require a more robust design — while leveraging the success enjoyed by the Europeans.

The Absalon/Iver Huitfeldt design offers a tremendous starting point. Modifying the design by installing a either a AN/SPY-1F or AN/SPY-1K combined with 1 5″ gun, 1 or 2 CIWS, 4–8 Harpoons, MK-41 with 24 tubes (possibly “quad packed” with ESSM’s), 2 MK-32 mounts (or 2x2 fixed ASW Torpedo mounts as seen on some European Frigates), ability to carry 2 CB-90’s (or replaced with 2 LCVP’s as required — see below) and add an aviation component of at least 2 SH-60 helicopters (plus 1–3 UAV’s) — plus retain the “flex deck” of the Absalon.

Add to this the ability to jointly carry — on a temporary basis — a COLT (USMC Company Landing Team) alongside another new Frigate. You could created a modern APD.

Dude I’ve got an idea. Why don’t we just write our congressman/woman and senator imploring them to look at this option. It’s a start and could lead us somewhere. You never know. (No sarcasm or wit intended)

All valid points gentleman.

gentlemen*

Better yet…try to get the concept published in USNI Proceedings! Oh yeah…already tried that. They weren’t interested. (No sarcasm or wit intended.) The COLT concept plus flex decks and UAV’s offers plenty of opportunities — plus the UAV’s could support sanctions enforcement (ala Libya) or ASW by creating “black skies” over a task force or (God forbid we ever had to) convoys.

The GAO, “We’ve never found a weapon system we didn’t hate.” If the USN said “fine, we’ll stick with more Zumwalts” we’d see a paper from the GAO tomorrow moaning about what a bad idea it is.

Wow that first bit was quite the downer. But hey you have to be optimistic you never know what will happen. Let’s just keep pushing for it.

Even with that big cost to build and decommission reactors they’re still more cost effective, right up until you have to deal with ecological disasters. I tend to think cruisers should be the smallest nuclear surface ship for the sake of mitigated risk.

A frigate doesn’t really accomplish the goals of a corvette sized ship. So its kinda like saying “now the DDG1000 isn’t working out, we need battleships”… different ship classes different purposes. One of the big reason the Navy want LCS is that our destroyers and frigates so out class the capabilities of allies in Asia we can’t currently conduct joint excercises with most, or operate within their fleet structures without so drastically dominating it. Our most common ships would be better than the flagships of most of those navies and when you’re inserting US assets to operate in concert with an ally you don’t necessarily want that.

Obviously we have at least one Stealthy Technocrat in our midst! It would appear that I lost my nominal 1 point for social incorrectness in suggesting that the eyeball is an adequate fire control sensor! :-)

Tom, think for a moment what all of those mods would do the Absolom hull “girder”. The stresses designed in would be significantly different in any sort of sea state. Then look at the history of the Ticos and the USCG Island class cutters when the existing hulls (Spruance hulls in the case of the Ticos) were just modified slightly, stretched, added to, etc.

Good luck with the USNI.

My goodness… put that way, obviously we should never send anything more threatening than a bass boat with a BB gun outside of the breakwater! All sarcasm fully intended!

I have a sincere problem figuring out why we would want any warship that did not overtly pose an overwhelmingly menacing threat to anyone who might ever consider themselves to be an enemy of the US. Somehow that kind of ship would seem to be a very comforting presence to any REAL ally, and to the other kind of “allies” let them be afraid, no, make that, VERY afraid!!! :-)

I believe that when we truly find out how much the LCS is going to cost the Taxpayers, I wouldn’t be too surprise that Congress kills the LCS program and starts looking at buying some decent frigates Europe. Heck Europe has some decent Frigates that do everything from Air defense, ASW, ASUW and even some Land attack in one frigate.

That’s why I am all for Killing the LCS and start looking at buying the rights and designs to the European Frigates and having it built in the US by US Shipyards. The Frigates I am looking at that the US Navy should seriously consider are Fridtjof Nansen class frigate,De Zeven Provinciën class frigate,De Zeven Provinciën class frigate,Formidable class frigate,Valour class frigate or the FREMM multipurpose frigate

Besides what dose a Frigate do that an LCS or Corvette can’t do, Drum roll Please.….….…SHOW the FLAG and presence as well. Isn’t that what a traditional frigate can do that an LCS or any corvette can’t do.

USN is feeling the squeeze now, not the budget squeeze (at least not directly), but the squeeze of capabilities vs platforms. FFGs are absolete because the AAW requirement has outgrown the platform, thus the move to LCS to replace these FFs in the ASW and SuW role as well as the MCM role.

As for the large Surface Combantants, you are trying to push a Aegis Cruiser and a ASW Destroyer into one hull, in a more ideal world you’d have a new CG(N) class and a new DDG class being procured, each specialized to their respective roll while complementing the other in a CSG.

Sadly we can’t afford both, and as it turns out we might not be capable of building the chosen alternative.

The GAO report indicates Navy did not use an approved Intelligence Community air and missile threat in their Radar/Hull Study. Moreover, Naval Intelligence did not participate in or review the study. (See GAO 12–113 Report, page 18). If Navy can ignore/modify the projected threat as a variable in the analysis, any preconceived technical solution can be justified.

AEGIS Flight III appears to be insufficient given the approved Intelligence Community threat. Moreover, technical feasibility is highly suspect, leaving great uncertainty in cost for this $58 billion to $64 billion dollar program.

Based on Navy acquisition decisions to date on AEGIS III the decision authority should be elevated to ACAT 1D where the increased visibility would add sunshine to what based on the GAO report looks like a very troubled major program.

How about a frigate (FFGX) based on the 5 Norwegian “Fridtjof Nansen” frigates. Using the Navantia hull and all US weapons. Not very different from the Norwegian ships which cost about $700 million — $800 million per ship. Replace Perry class and stop LCS procurement at no more than 20 units. Also cancellation of Flight III Burkes would allow for purchase of 2+FFGXs for each planned Burke unit. Use gap in DDG/CG construction to allow DDG-1000 and future tech such as railguns to mature by early 2020s when “Flight IV” design starts. Navantia’s basic design is used in 5 Spanish and 5 Norwegian units (+ 3 for Australia).

If the US Navy really wanted money really fast and in a hurry, I would order the US Navy to call up the Taiwanese Navy and ask how much are they willing to pay for the Mark-26 Twin-Arm Launcher Variant of the Tico’s left in the inventory and make a deal where they would pay for the pick up and pay for the upgrades and installation of any equipment that they want.

USN has lost the ability (desire) to procure lower end vessels (frigates and corvettes) that could perform many missions performed by FFG’s and Burkes (LCS in future?). Political considerations, tight budgets, and Navy’s “gold-plated” mentality prevent procurement of vessels such as Absalon/Ivar Huitfeldt (Denmark), Aquitaine/Carlo Bergamini (France/Italy), Fridtjof Nansen (Norway), Alvaro de Bazan /Hobart (Spain/Australia), and Sachsen (Germany). Pick one. Build in US or Europe. Or even crazier, build hulls in Europe, fit out (electronics and weapons systems) in US. Danish will soon have an available shipyard (Odense). I know sacrilege!

Here’s one crazy idea that may work. If the Danes can get a ship like the Absalon class support ship which is a Frigate and a LPD in one. How hard can it be for the US Navy to turn the San Antonio class amphibious transport dock into something similar to the Royal Danish navies Absalon class support ship. We can take the San Antonio class amphibious transport dock and add some Frigate weapons and systems on it and use the Stan flex system as well.

The challenge with using the San Antonio class Amphibious Transport Docks is there relative slow speed — 22 knots. The Absalon is quoted at 23 knots — which in its’ own right may be a bit too slow to escort CBG’s. This issue may be in the reliance on MTU diesel engines on the Absalon. The solution may be in the use of a combination of diesels and LM2500’s to offer better dash speed as required.

In addition, the San Antonio is equipped with a well-deck for use by LCAC’s. This imposes speed limitations (due to hull form limitatiosn) plus far greater mechanical complexity.

The ability to operate either CB-90’s and/or LCVP’s combined with helicopters/UAV’s would provide the ability for a USN “Absalon” FFG/APD to operate successfully in the Littorals confronting various (but not all) asymetric threats plus (possibly) conducting raids/direct action operations (while carrying a SOC-capable USMC COLT) in support of the GWOT.

So how hard is it to tweak the hull form and swap out the engines on the San Antonio class Amphibious Transport Docks. Then add modular off the shelf infantry based weapons including some Harpoons, a box full of Hellfire missile, A box full of Stinger Missiles, Sea Ram, 57 MM main gun and even two 25 MM Bushmaster cannon. Maybe add some VLS launchers for ESSM missiles. You can add the ability to carry a SOC-Capable USMC COLT team operating with CB-90 boats and or LCVP’s

It would give the US Navy their version of Absalon FFG/APD that can get in so close to the littoral environments and even provide a platform for special forces or USMC SOC COLT teams to operate from. It would be able to deal with all types of asymetric threats and possibly conducting raids/direct action operations including anti Piracy operations as well.

What about just “biggy size” upsizing the Burke hull form? That’s really what Navy did with the F/A-18 so it’d have the legs to go the distance and carry more ordnance.

Several DDG-51 Flight III proposals have been floated, including:
http://www.jeffhead.com//aegisvesselsoftheworld/2…

The US Navy is a reflection of US policy, we need a lot more ships if we’re to defend every country in NATO and this allows NATO countries to cut their Defense spending to almost nothing because if there’s trouble, the US will come to their rescue as it’s time for Europe to stand alone because we don’t owe them anything and they’re not afraid of anyone as France is selling helicopter carriers to Russia.

Ecologically speaking, a nuc ship is much healthier for the environment-NO pollution from the burning of fossil fuels for 30+ years.

If our design are hindered by this thinking then we need to give up on all of our nuc submarines and carriers and go back to coal fired plants or maybe even sails

don’t forget Nicky, THE major function of the LCS is to make our friends “feel good” (straight from the Navy’s mouth).

I believe getting ABM capability on the Zumwalt’s won’t be a major issue. I can’t remember where I read that, but some executive said it was a matter of programming.

But commisor12 is right, the Zumwalt’s have the power, cooling, and capacity for more. The Burke, as great as ship as they are, and will continue to be for some time, are simply at the limits of their design capacity. You can’t put a size 12 foot in a size 9 shoe and expect it to work-which is what the brass is trying to do.

There is not enough consideration of alternatives to solid state radar transmitters which require a lot of cooling. There is a better way to get the power required, with less cooling, taking up less space. But it wasn’t invented by the big guys, so it can’t get into the conversation.

here’s a link to some of the Navy’s thorough testing of the Stealthness of the DDG-1000 Deckhouse. There are other publically released testing results on google search. Looks like this piece of Zumwalt really IS performing as intended: it has low observability, just as planned:
http://​www​.compositesworld​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​s​/​d​d​g​-​1​0​00-…

a piece of good news in this massively expensive R&D project.

Except we can’t make the San Antonio’s work. They are a cluster, and one of the worst run programs in USN history. Recent reports have them incapable of combat in high threat environment.

And it suffered wing drop problems that took awhile to sort out and still don’t have the legs promised. Its easy to scale things in AutoCAD, making them work in the real world is something else.

Hopefully you are right on this aspect. On the other hand NONE of the USN or IJN strikers had radar at the battle of Midway, and ships way smaller in terms of optical signature than Zumwalt were acquired, targeted, engaged and SUNK! Hmmmmm, makes you wonder how that could have possibly occurred now don’t it? LoL!Sent from my iPhone

The issue is technology has now driven us back to the need for cruisers. No armour can stop a modern rocket, but cruisers are the accurate word for what we need. A standard design, with the size and weight carrying capacity to handle modern needs. To carry enough long range UAV’s and missles to be a credible threat to any place on earth. Paired with a replenishment missile carrier ship optimised for air defence these pairs would the core of a comparatively low cost fleet. 50 such pairs would be less expensive than the mish-mosh of undersized ships. The radar, fire control etc. from the cruiser, would be backed up in a limited way on the replenishment ship: basically the replenishment ships would have the ability to transfer missiles to the cruiser or fire them with the cruiser providing the fire control.

I miss when there was actual non-political agenda in the service. They had need, they design new class of ship for the job. Not playing political potatoe where the service is forced to stick with a 30+ year design to be able pass the polarized members of the US Congress. Its stupid, design new design with so much room and stick with it! They got keep from doing these high-tech ships and low tech ones. Repeat DDG-52 isn’t a repeat if has all new equipment, repeat means same equipment! If the newer equipment don’t fit, you design friggin new design! Stupid Congress canceled CG-X project would been correction to the DDG-1000 design. US Navy is doomed if this nonsense keep going on.

A merchant ship of 20,000 tons typically has a 20,000 HP engine and travels at around 20 knots. The 8,000 ton Burke’s have 100,000 HP. So normal people drive around with a 1 to 1 HP to tonnage ration while our destroyers are banging out 12 to 1. Is this really necessary? The best way to get the weight down is to cut the HP in half, just like every other navy in the world and their destroyers. You could even leave one of the 2500’s there for ships power, and be able to put the fancy radar in that they want to buy. The all electric Zumwalt was a try at the future, but we built it too soon, and too gold plated, as usual. Future surface combatants will likely be all electric ships, outside of the nuclear navy, but let’s get the tech right first.
And for those wishing for an all nuclear navy, go ahead a keep wishing it, but it will never happen.

Bruce, the reason US destroyers traditionally have plenty is power was the nature of their mission
escort, formation maneuvering, picket duty, ASW, independent cruising, all of which require the ability to “freely maneuver” and to “sprint” when need be (especially when chasing submarines, or being chased by one). They don’t have to be fast, but they do have to be quick

Being in the right place at the right time is half of the battle

All destroyers and cruisers should be able to do 30 knots. But then again we don’t need to take it to the
extreme and have speed replace capability (as in the LCS)

Sounds like the brass in charge is having a little trouble justifying what their corporate masters want versus what the Navy really needs. Lockheed and Northrop could care less about trying to do the “right” thing but milk as much money out of the budget as they can get. And the brass and bozo’s in Washington will just go right along with it. Instead of being able to defend the country and its naval interests, the Navy will soon not be able to do much of anything but watch its best sailors and officers leave the service once they are done with the silliness.

Why do we need ships at all anymore? I thought Obama was going to repair all those broken relationships that Bush had allegedly messed up where “everyone hates us” and now we’re all friends again?! (ya, right!!)

If we stop doing business the way we’ve always done it because politicians bring home the bacon to their districts, and we had real competition and locked down the design to avoid the requirements creep that bankrupts every program we undertake, we’d be able to make a ship that we NEED without every bell and whistle that someone sees at a trade show, and we’ll get the ship made at a fair price and be able to field it in less than 20 years before it’s obsolete as soon as it hits the fleet!

I was in the Marine Corps not the Navy, but my friend who was assigned to a Cruiser told me that in the Navy there are two kinds of ships: Submarines and Targets. Yes we definately need to modernise our surface ships but we need to have that absolute best attack subs and plenty of them.

A merchant ship, for the most part, is designed to operate at the most economical speed, aka “hull speed” or something close to that. They take a long time to accelerate to that speed because the engines are sized more or less for nothing more than the economical speed. (SOME of those merchant ships are actually quite fast by the way!). A naval vessel also has a “most economincal” speed, but by the nature of the business, they need to be able to accelerate rapidly, and in some cases they need to exceed the “economical speed” by a fair amount. Id suggest googling “hull speed horsepower”. Once you exceed the hull speed, the horsepower requirements go up rapidly. If anything, I think that many of the more recently designed DDs, frigates and corvettes may actually have MORE horsepower per ton than a Burke, but that might take some research to confirm.

Lets just think about this for a while.… what would it take to put SM-3 on a Zumwalt.…

Perhaps a new (actually “old” compared to the current version) radar, aka the ABM-enabled AEGIS currently in use on the Burkes, with bigger radar faces (if I remember correctly), way up on the side of that huge deckhouse. Now you have to replace all of the internal radar electronics with the equivalent AEGIS boxes.

Now you have to figure out how to modify those “peripherial VLS tubes” to accomodate the extra long SM-3 missiles (and since they are along the edge of the deck, you cant just extend them above deck level as was done with the Burkes’ tubes.)

Im sure Ive missed many other details of the project but.…Hmmm.… does not sound all that easy to me, but then what do I know… but Im sure that all you need to do is modify the software.…LOL!

I have a funny feeling that the “programming” you heard about might be the programming part of PPBE that signals the start of a rather large and expensive modification/redesign program! :-)

I’ll bet that 16 inches of WW2 Class A armor plate could take on most anti-ship missiles.

Eh, have any source about the difficulty of adding the SM-3 to the Zumwalt? Using published information, the current SM-3 should fit in the cell with about 20″ to spare (wiki and Raytheon document on the Mk-57 PVLS).

And, lets compare the problems:

Zumwalt: Perhaps extend the VLS tubes, (the MK-57 has a greater diameter and weight capacity, thus it can take a larger missile), include the combat systems for the AMDR, and install the AMDR in what appears to be a much more spacious deck house.

DDG-51: Rewire the entire ship for higher voltage, cram the AMDR into an already overfilled deck house, fix the center of gravity problems, install a new powerplant (thereby changing the entire engineering section of the ship), and finally include the combat systems for the AMDR.

From an objective standpoint, all the Zumwalt has to do is install the combat systems, the radar in a much more spacious area, and perhaps modify to fit the SM-3. And already, the MK-57 is bigger, thus allowing it to hold larger future missiles.

The Burke has to reset its entire superstructure to handle the larger radar, which the Navy admits won’t even be sufficient for the task, as well as add more power generation capability, rewire internal electronics. The fact of the matter is that the DDG-51 flight 3 will be for all intents and purposes a brand new class of warship, akin to the Ticonderoga’s development from the Spruance. In that case, there is nothing to be saved by going with “proven legacy,” especially as there is another ship which has a better base for future weapons.

It looks like I may have to offer a “mea culpa”. My memory was that the PVLS could not accept a “Strike” cannister, which is what is requireed, length wise, to accomodate an SM-3. Now it would appear that the Mk57 will in fact accept that longer canister. I remembered, incorrectly it would seem, that the Mk57 used a “fatter” canister but not the longer cannister. Sorry, my only excuse is that its been a few years.… :-(

As for the radar… it would also appear that there are 15 Burkes already outfitted for SM-3 and more to come, without the benefit of the AMDR. If we dont NEED the AMDR, we dont need to accept the added heating or power loads, or the increased weight of the new system. If you dont have to generate more electricity, you dont need the new power plant… etc etc etc.

ALSO, I would suggest a quick study of metacentric height and the impact of the increased weight of the AMDR up high on the deck house. Stability is a terrible thing to loose! :-)

In essence, I do agree with you that “modifying” a Burke to take a bigger, heavier, and more demanding radar system would not be very easy, but I would say that doing that to the also finalized and in-production DDG-1000 design would be no less challenging and certainly subject to the same risks as the Tico development..

I bet you LOVED the “Arsenal Ship” concept, didnt you? LOL!

For the small to mid sized ASCMs (Exocet, Penguin, etc), you would be looking at a little touch up paint… maybe! For the big and nasty “carrier killers” like the “Sunburn”.… .

From Wikipaedia
The P-270 Moskit (Russian: П-270 «Москит»; English: Mosquito) is a Russian supersonic ramjet powered cruise missile. Its GRAU designation is 3M80, and its NATO reporting name is SS-N-22 Sunburn.

It weighs in at about 3 times the weight of an 18-inch projectile from the IJN Yamato, perhaps 1.5 times the weight if most of the fuel is burned out, and hits at about 1.5 times the impact velocity of the Japanese gun round. At the time when 16in of armor was considered adequate in most cases, the 18-inch shells were the exception. F=MA each and every time, so… not sure that the 16 inches would work against a Moskit/Sunburn.

The thing is, that if we can add frigate weapons and systems including adding some CB-90 boats as well. It may not do well in a high threat environment, but in a low to medium threat environments such as counter piracy, it would be perfect. You can make a standard San Antonio class Amphibious Transport Docks, stretch it, swap the engines and turn it into the US Navy’s version of the Absalon class support ship by making the systems modular.

The five ships you are talking about (CG 47– CG 51) were decomissioned in 2004 — 2005. I believe some of the five have already been physically disposed of (CG 50 as target in 2006) or will be shortly.

Here is a thought that might work and get the design of what they want or a present platform redesigned to what they want also:
Write all your specifications and everything else you want. Like length, width, weight and everything else down on papers. Then you go to high schools, colleges and some design firms that has not time to the government or who people in the government; this also can be done to with foreign school and business. Show them what you want and ask them for a design that will work. When they submit their plans go over them with an open mind and pick the ones that will work and go from there, you will get a design at a lower cost. You can reward the people who submit the best design.
Another thing you can do is like it was said in a few comments get a foreign design that all ready afloat and work from there. This is not rocket sciences so don’t make it a mountain out of a mole hill

The only thing we should do with the San Antonio class is scrap them and add a chapter to naval ship design titled “What not to do”.

to hell of with the ships, Obama is firing 100,000 soldiers who have no future after Obama has destroyed the families, no homes, no jobs, benefits extremely reduced, cars and homes repossessed, men are of greater value than ships, rarely ships are used in combat and we have hundreds of them and remain the largest and most lethal Navel force in history with the best Tech, screw the Navy 100,000 living breathing soldiers and their families tossed to the curb with no future is far more important

Bringing back military jobs should be a high priority. It’d be cool if we cut our dependance on Private Military Contractors, raise the age enlisted limit from 17 to 21, and start a harder crackdown on rape of female personnel by male personnel. Too bad the DoD’s policy makers are too fuc#tarded to make that happen and to a further extent the financiers are fuc#tarded in their own right for letting the banks cause this domino effect to happen.

I say put missles on the Coast Guard Cutters and let them duke it out with the bad guys. Seriously — who is the surface force enemy? Iran? North Korea? I think a few gunboat battles might be in order there. I’m betting on
U S sailors winning that tho.

A few comments on the comments noted above. No. 1, the Nansen class frigates are no more than an FFG with a modified super structure ( hulls are identical), I have worked on both US and NorFrig programs back in the 90’s. No. 2, DDG 51 class vessels are indeed over powered and at flank speed guzzle in excess of 6600 gallons of JP-5 an hour to accomplish speeds equal to a WW2 French destroyer of the Le Terrible class i.e. , nothing new here…, save that the French ships burned far cheaper fuels and and for their time were even more advanced in weaponery than the comparable Burkes are currently, yet France was still over run by the Germans. No. 3 a reference to the DDG 1000 does not take into account the 20 year history of this politically concocted fiasco. Billions have been poured into this piece of naval conjecture and to date no completed product has yet to appear save an incomplete midbody section recently paraded at Bath Iron Works (it will most likely be rusted out by spring and ready for still more re-work…). Magnificent desertations have been authored in defense of this vintage hull design by all the usual suspects an yet the gullible public is unaware that the Navy and it’s contractors still haven’t found a mission for this plastic encased Toad. Multi-tasking of these ships has a history of over thirty years as pioneeered under the MEKO system which provided for easy interchange of systems throughout ships developed under MEKO, our Navy still has’nt learned anything from the European experience. Instead, we have the idiocy of a Navy caught in the past discussing guns that can launch projectiles 50+ miles !!! Hello out there…A well placed volley of guided missiles could wipe out one of these 5 Billion dollar (i.e. Zumwalt) toys faster than you could say CIWS! Even, provided the key was readily accessible . The Navy needs a little injection of introspection and perhaps a reality check. Space has made stealth a myth and it is likely that if such an asinine system was used close-in against conventional forces, it would likely be taken out by something as simple as a well placed Howitzer, thus destroying the equivalent of the GNP of at least 20 emerging economies not to mention billions of hard earned taxpayer dollars!!! We are now the victims of a type of warfare that we essentially pioneered against the British. It has cost us over a Trillion dollars to execute with no end in sight and our enemies are showing us the they can, by attrition alone, bleed us militarily and economically into bankruptcy and yet… the “Navy” (which by the way hasn’t seen ship on ship combat in almost 67 years), is still of a mentality that somehow our enemies cannot “get” at us… We shall see.

“We are now the victims of a type of warfare that we essentially pioneered against the British.”

The one thing that I can really take to task on a factual basis. The form of warfare that the American colonists waged against the Brits was a rehash of the Germanic tribes’ tactics in the Tetoburg Forest against the Romans or the Thracian and Scythian tactics against the classical Greek hoplites. When warfare becomes “technical”, in the other examples, technical meant armored disciplined units, the folk without those technical means resort to what we today call “guerrilla” tactics. Except for a few pitched battles the American Revolution was very much a “Guerrilla War”, waged at the edge of the British logistics domain. Today, we are the “priveleged” and the unpriveleged resort to their opportunites at hand. And we call it “unsymmetrical warfare” when a wooden dhow takes down a Burke DDG while the DDG is sitting in port.

The Iranians and N. Koreans certainly offer the most immediate “threats”, more due to their belligerance than their real capability, but its still a capability that needs to have a counter in our quiver (and honestly, I think that although the onboard firepower of our surface ships is necessary, if only for self defense, the true “counter” to the Iranians or N. Koreans, is naval strike aircraft not deck guns!).

If you want to get the cold pricklies.… think about a confrontation 10–15 years down the pipe with either a fully rejuvenated Russian fleet or the Chinese fleet, particularly if that confrontation occurs “in their back yard” and not off the coast of the US.

You are of course correct, my reference should have been to guerilla warfare in the modern sense for political gain and consolidation of a political base. Arminius had only a tribal interest and was not politically as sophisticated as the Romans or able to maintain cohesion amongst his forces. Shortly thereafter he utilized the initial victory to consolidate forces which, ended up fighting amongst themselves. Luckily for him the Romans were otherwise occupied some what further South and East. In as much as you are playing fast and loose with semantics I see no symmetry in the chaos of war, save that for “interfacing” with your friends. The attack on the Cole was a deliberate attempt to let us know that we are in fact quite vulnerable and if I may correct you, I believe the attack was conducted by a somewhat more conventional fibreglass speed boat and not a dhow i.e., a classic wooden lateen rigged sailing craft sometimes powered by a small diesel engine.

The “asymmetry” is refering to the technologies, on one hand a small wooden or fiberglass boat laden with what appears to be trade goods very nearly sinks a $1B+ state-of-the-art destroyer, or a capped off section of sewer pipe filled with fertilizer and diesel fuel and triggered by a trip wire tosses an M1A1 30 ft into the air, or.… .a highly destructive strategic strike is conducted in the middle of your enemy’s major cities using comercial airliners. In other words, warfare by something other than the currently accepted methods of “civilized” warfare.

Arminius sucked the leigions into a disadvantage using the terrain and relied on the cohesion brought about by the opportunity to attack and loot the hated Romans. If he had fought in an open, flat plain, in a pitched battle, the Romans would have likely handily have slaughtered the German tribesmen!

Considering that the USCG is “guarding” coasts far from North America’s borders, I’m surprised they don’t mandate more firepower for when they’re overseas.

Another beef I have with the lack of intelligent rational thought NOT being used in USN warship design: when we design a ship wit the intention of showing the flag, of making a physical, visual presence with Old Glory waving from its mast, a ship covered in all kinds of bits and pieces that stick out like a sore thumb, why the HELL do we feel we need to waste money incorporating Radar Absorbent Material into its design, or sloping sides to change reflected radar returns? Especially when we arm it with anti-missile missiles and other countermeasures systems anyway.
If we want “clean” ships that don’t show off their presence to radar or even IR sensors, then don’t cover them in all kinds of radar-reflective parts, gizmos, and gadgets, and don’t go “showing the flag” in broad daylight!

No common sense.

Heh, see? We CAN agree on some things…

Aww,…did I strike a sour note with somebody?

As I was trying to say,
the 155mm AGS is going to be a fail point of the DDG1000 program. It was, way back, initially thought of to fire both standard 155mm rounds and smart rounds, but is now limited to just the big LRLAPs. The physical size of these rounds readily suggests that, in order to be strong enough for gun launch, they are going to be expensive, especially considering all of the 3 ships will have 6 guns between them, and each will, moore than likely, never fire a full magazine’s worth over their entire lifetime.
The USN has failed at least half a dozen times with gun-fired PGM programs, from as far back as the laser-homing shells intended for the failed 8inch MCLWG. And not one 5inch PGM has been produced for service in any credible numbers.
Now we folks thinking of railguns, and regardless of velocity, to hit point targets at greater ranges still means end point precision guidance, making guided railgun projectiles even more expensive.
Am I the only one who realizes this?

hey Willi, I can’t disagree with some of what you said but when you put out “facts” out as lies then your entire thesis goes out the window because you lose credibility

here what you said “the “Navy” (which by the way hasn’t seen ship on ship combat in almost 67 years…”

let me point this “little” battle (the largest since WWII) that you may have forgotten about
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​O​p​e​r​a​t​i​o​n​_​P​r​a​y​i​n​g​_Ma…
The surface action started when an Iranian fast attack craft fired a Harpoon at the USS Wainwright, the USS Wainwright, Simpson, and Bagley returned fire, the battle went on from there-it’s an interesting read.

The Ticonderoga hull is the same length as a Spruance. The difference in overall length sometimes cited is due to the addition of the bow bulwark on the cruisers. No change to the hull lines. There were internal changes to the structure & plating to improve the allowable displacement/KG (as I recall from “Electronic Greyhounds” the watertight subdivision was extended upward by one deck, for instance, and the scantlings were changed). Norman Friedman’s “US Destroyers” gives the same waterline length for both the Spruance and Ticonderoga–529ft.

According to Norman Friedman’s “US Destroyers,” the Burkes do not have the same designed service life allowances that the Spruances did. The Burkes reverted to “minimum” ship design philosophies to save cost. “Controlling margins was a way of controlling displacement. The [Burke] would, at this stage, have a 10 percent service life margin in displacement. The Spruances [were] designed for 12.2 percent…” and “Both the [Burke] and the Perry had 20 percent electrical margins; Spruance had 34 percent. Most of the latter was used up when Spruance was redesigned as Ticonderoga; the latter had only an 11 percent electrical margin. Similarly, accommodation margins mattered, because new equipment would require more personnel. Again, the [Burke] used the same margin as a Perry (10 percent), whereas the Spruance offered 20 percent (cut to 8 percent in Ticonderoga). None of the ships had any margin at all in speed and power…” (US Destoyers, page 424). The last statement is contradicted by “Electronic Greyhounds” where it is stated that a miscalculation by the Spruance design team caused the vessel to end up faster than planned.

Ironically, unlike the Spruance design, the Burke hull actually was extended to become the Flight IIA.

Thanks much for the info. My limited experience suggested that there really wasn’t much “growth room” built into any DD design, but .….. Did not know for sure.Sent from my iPhone

:-) That must mean that at least occasionally one or the other of us is correct and we agree (or equally wrong, and we agree!)! LOL! I dont disagree with a lot of what you seem to think, but.… its those insignificant but crucial technical details that I get hung up on sometimes! :-)

Very poor comparison of Merchant ship horsepower to warship horsepower because of the laws of fluid dynamics as they apply to ship design and performance. The fact is that (for a destroyer/cruiser type ship) 30 kts takes more than 4 times the power that 20 kts requires. Considering that most of our destroyers and cruisers used to be built to achieve 35 kts.
Just for your info, an old Forrest Sherman class destroyer could get to about 25 kts on 1 boiler. With all 4 boilers, it could get almost to 35 or so.

According to some friends who are part of the 155MM AGS, it will be able to fire “regular” 155MM ammunition

My suggestion would be to CANX the LCS Program, use that money to recommission/ modernize the Battleships until we can figure out what to do next. Just wishful thinking…

I think that Id probably want to ask them exactly which of the “conventional” 155mm rounds have been through, or are on contract for, the qualification testing for onboard use. I know that once the plan was to have LRLAPs as the “silver bullets” in the magazines and the majority of the space occupied by conventional rounds of different flavors, but… none of those rounds was actually up to USN standards for shipboard ammunition, at least in terms of qual testing and certification. (you could carry them as “cargo” of course, but you were not supposed to load them in the magazine!) I seem to remember that the qualification testing was to have been eliminated based on cost.… :-) Hopefully, Im wrong and some of those “conventional” rounds have made it into the USN inventory. Im thinking that while the 57mm 3P round is a good choice for small boats, an XM396-style 155mm beehive might make some seriously “strong medicine” for those hated “small boat attacks”!! :-)

I hear ingalls Shipbuliding is presenting their idea of a patrol frigate based upon the US Coast Guards NSC called Patrol Frigate 4501 and Patrol Frigate 4921. Here’s the link to the post http://​seawavesmagazine​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​1​2​/​0​2​/​i​nga…

The Russian nuclear submarine Kursk blew the whole front off the boat, and sunk almost immediately killing all but the rear engineering section, and the nuclear propulsion system safeties still managed to trip saving the pile, even though it went to the bottom.

Now if we can’t built a surface ship any safer than that Russian junk, we got more problems than just bad planning.

The nation that runs on alternate energy is the one that wins when the oil runs out. The Germans almost learned that, but too late for WWII.

They should at least try Stirling engine propulsion, as it will run on virtually anything, including nuclear. Those new ****ums designs come to mind. I spell — Kilo — Oscar — Charley — Kilo — ums;
K o c k s u m s.

There’s no doubt — high velocity is a guaranteed ship killer. We proved that to the Japanese in WWII Pacific, with our dive bombers. However, I also remember an engagement by Admiral Thomas L. Sprague’s Taffy 1, whose ships were shot thru and thru by armor piercing shells, but his steel was so thin, they never exploded, so damage control kept him afloat long enough to chase the Jap fleet off!

Too bad missiles don’t react the same way.

Same thing happened in the Falklands and Gulf of Tonkin. Thin skinned DDs (HMS Broadsword in particular!) ended up with large steel plates on either side to mark where AP bombs went straight through without fusing! The NVA shore batteries would shell the old WWII vintage gun DDs sent in to pick up fliers and the AP/AT shells for the heavy AAA would detonate 50yds after passing clean through!!

When you talk about armor though, it’s either a shaped charge or old fashioned kinetic energy that works. A Moskit is bad news.

Sent from my iPhone

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