The Army’s Abrams gamble

The Army’s Abrams gamble

The Army brass has heard from almost everyone by now that there are reasons to worry about its plan to idle Lima, Ohio’s tank plant for the next few years. Got it, the service’s top leaders said last week — but we’re still doing it.

Army Secretary John McHugh and Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno told House lawmakers they think National League-style small-ball foreign military sales can help keep body and soul together for General Dynamics Land Systems until 2017. That’s when the Army plans to begin modernizing its M1A2 SEP Abrams tanks, and GD’s plant and workers would ramp out of their production bathtub.

Leaders don’t seem happy about this, but today’s Austerity Army has little choice, as our eminent colleague Matt Cox reported:


“This is something that is of great interest; it’s something that as I said we are looking at very hard,” McHugh said. “We are willing to pursue any reasonable path to ensure that those particularly critical jobs remain viable.”

Shutting down tank production is just one many cost-cutting strategies the Army is now proposing … That said, few proposals create as much worry among lawmakers as one that might suggest that the Pentagon might not have enough M1 tanks to go into a major ground war with North Korea or even China.

The Army’s M1 fleet is roughly 5,000 strong and according to Army Chief of Staff Ray Odierno does not need to grow any larger right now.

“Our tank fleet is in good shape, and we are not going to need to start recap of that until 2017,” Odierno told lawmakers, adding that the temporary shutdown stands to save $2.8 billion.

The Army would have to buy at least 70 M1s a year just to keep the production line open, McHugh said, “which is not just far beyond our fiscal ability, it’s far beyond our need.”

There’s a case to be made that tanks today are the horse cavalry of the early 20th century — kept around as much for nostalgia as for battlefield utility.  But as soon as you declare that conventional warfare is over and dispose of all your armor, North Korea invades the South and you’ve got a Larry Bond and/or Harold Coyle situation on your hands. This is exactly why the Army leadership is so keen to preserve “balance” in its force and why Secretary Panetta specifically mentioned Korea in last week’s congressional hearings.

Although DoD officials usually are coy about the exact campaign plans that inform their force structure requirements, Panetta spitballed a rollicking airport novel: North Korea attacks the South (where, one hopes, the handsome young Army tank commander can hold the line) and, at the same time, Iran blocks or mines the Strait of Hormuz (where, one hopes, the handsome young surface warfare officer can hold off a small-boat swarm attack).

The military will be structured to deal with this scenario, Panetta said, and that means keeping tanks. But an overall doctrinal commitment does not guarantee business for GD or jobs for the engineers who work on these machines — or that an idle tank plant would start back up when the Army now projects it would.

Join the Conversation

Good luck. Can’t wait to see how much costs rocket when they try to start it back up.

Well its the simple economics… 5 years of buying 70 tanks/yr or 5 years of pay alot less and then an uptick in cost to restart, which is greater? 5 years is a long enough time frame that I’m inclined to believe it isn’t worth running a low volume production and it’ll be difficult for any mark up to bring the cost up more than $2.8B.

Tribal knowledge and adept production skills that will be lost cannot be measured in dollars. We just can’t flip a switch and be right back to where we are today if the production goes off line for 5 years. No job means people have to move on. So who knows what the guy you jire 5 years from now is like. The trends aren’t going the right direction. Each generation seems to be incapable of out working the previous generation, but they want more money per hour for that decreased capacity.. I’d take 5 years of 70 tanks in a heart beat to maintain skillsets and knowledge base.

Exactly right… a 5 year break means starting over, there is no “restarting the line”. The machines will be inoperable and the people will be gone.

5000 tanks is way over any operational requirement, we can shutter the plant permanently and live off mothballed tanks for decades.

In five ears we will be in worse economic condition that we are now — no chance that anyone would be foolish enough to start making tanks then.

Its probably the only chance for our defense industries to regenerate. “Each generation seems to be incapable of out working the previous generation” eventually leads to zero productivity. The correct approach is to kill the organization and start again.

hey itfunk, maybe we should shut government down for five years, then maybe, just maybe when we ‘restart’ it they will all have forgotten how to be corrupt, waste our tax dollars, and how to sell out our country to foreign interests

Face it: only warmongers want more tanks. We have enuf. U can shut her down. Stop wasting money.

That just might work actually.….

(OK, I’m only half-kidding ;)

And what will we spend this saved money on?.…..

At the cost of how much? I’m not against the idea, but only if we have the money to restart the industry; otherwise, we’ll be buying all our tanks for the next war from China.….

How about paying down the debt?

Why do we have National League small-ball in this serious story, and who are Larry Bond and Harold Coyle?

I have a great idea, let’s start more entitlements programs so that instead of consuming 3/4 of the federal budget entitlements would then consume 95% of the budget then everyone will be happy happy joy joy and everyone will love us and the world will live as one in peace and harmony, we’ll all live on beet farms and sing cum-ba-ya (psst, hey pass the bong pipe brother)

Can’t they just modernize more M1A1 to M1A2 SEP standard in the interim while the M1A3 is in development?

Maybe replace the current gas turbine engine too while they’re at it.

Nope — it doesn’t work that way. We aren’t building new tanks here. This is all about refurbishing the tanks we have in the force. Think of it like your car. I got one of my cars up to 275K+ miles. After awhile the normal wear and tear means that if you want to make Old Bessie run, you have to rebuild it from the chassis up. Of course, there could come a time when we’re actually building new designs, but even with the old designs, you need to keep the line open. Period.

Because to the author of this piece, war is a figment of his imagination.

It’d the F22 production sceme all over again.

Why don’t we just take that money we were spending on making tanks and use some of it to upgrade our current tanks with TROPHY?

Agree, in addition even if the low volume is continued when it is restarted to a higher volume there is going to be a training time for the new employees no mater how good a worker they are.

Using that thought then let us shut down all of the military production and live off what we have on hand now? Look at how much more money could be saved. And if the US is no longer a threat to the rest of the would other nations would no longer to produce so much military gear either.

Ok, BigD, er, Rick–I can tell u spoil for war, but r u a Chickenhawk, sir, happy to send someone else’s kids to fight it, eh?

That is a splendid idea.

Makes too much sense, I don’t see where we can waste billions in this scheme; back to the drawing board.

If you get rid of the employees now, who will be your trained foremen and supervisors in the future. If you keep at a survival level and then expand, the people that you kept on become the foremen and lead engineers of the expanded effort

“We have enuf. U can shut her down.“
Really? What is the right number? How many do our potential adversaries have? Tanks are enormously heavy and difficult to move so how many do we need in forward deployed storage to meet time phased deployment plans?

Do you actually know anything about military equipment and total force planning?

What if we upgrade to Trophy and then immediately scrap the tanks — that would waste a lot.
Oh I see William C has already suggested that.

Russia and Iran and Syria pose more of a armored threat than North Korea or China would. In the Korean War tanks on both sides where infantry support weapons as the terrain is against conventional tank warfare. Both North Korea and China’s tanks would be on par with current US British and Russian and Ukrainian tanks in service. Numbers do matter but with the Army wasting money on lousy MRAPS and Striker vehicles while cutting tank forces. So this is just a bad combo for US tank forces the USMC has more tank training and inventory soon than the Army will have.

Q: Who is the current, or projected credible threat to US national security that will require thousands of tanks to counter?

A: Nobody

The more than enough tanks already in existence can be maintained and upgraded without a producing new tanks.

Lance’s claim that Nork tanks (and esp Nork tank crews) are on par with modern Western tanks is utter nonsense. And any armored invasion of the Chinese mainland would almost certainly guarantee a nuclear response.

As Americans who value the advantage the M1 Abrams has given our soldiers on the battlefield. How can we even consider putting skilled Mechanics, Engineers, Troubleshooters, Painters etc. on the Unemployment Line and divide a workforce that has provided our soldiers with the tools that keep them safe and take the battle to our enemies.….as a reward for there service we should close them down are you serious? Money is wasted in so many areas but lets weaken our defenses sure why not…it’s not like we live in a volatile world or anything right?

Plug the spending hole, and then we’ll discuss paying the debt off. Otherwise, we’re throwing money down the toilet.….

This is a cultural and behavioral problem. You have to have an experienced person to hold the line and maintain standards. Otherwise, the “new guy” in charge will have a crop of “new guys” that side by side produce less for more than the current assembly line.

The US has over 5,000 Abrams Tanks in the field the reality of that needs to sink in. Abrams use in the past 20 years has been trivial in numbers that includes the first Iraq war. Politics aside, the reality is we have superiority in performance and sufficiency in numbers. At 70 tons + ammo + fuel the Abrams is the big boy on the world stage and what makes more sense than an over abundance of Abrams is a new generation of more deployable systems and you will never get there by continuing to produce and field these huge systems. The unrealistic what if is not productive to field the next generation of lethality needed by our troops.

Cutting the DOD budget to ZERO still does not keep us from having a budget defecit. Talk about penny wise and pound foolish! How about we cut the myraid of social programs that reward non productive people and live off the taxes that productive people generate… Your unarmed and debt riddled “uber culture” of feel good college kids wouldn’t last a generation. Wake the EFF up…

they would make great coral reefs (NOT) — this just bites the big one — AGAIN~!LOSERS!

The point should never be “who is our enemy?”… The point should be that we have such an overwhelming adavantage that nobody wants to be our enemy. The M1A1 is several decades old in design. At some point, it will have to be replaced or significantly upgraded, which is taking place. If you stop working on that process now and go idle for 5 years, you do not take a step forward in evolving something. Everything along the entire process takes a step back. Would you rather have an ever evolving state-of-the-art bad ass tank that we have 5,000 of indefinately, or do you want those 5,000 M-1’s to slowly be replaced by newfandangled tanks that have so much R&D $$ behind them that we only get 1000 because they cost 4 times as much and are riddled with design flaws?? Quantity has an quality of it’s own, especially when you have an F-35 as both your CAP and CAS…

Let’s put the stablemen, grooms, farriers, saddlemakers, feed bag sewers, haymakers, oat growers, and swordsmiths back to work, too!

In case you haven’t noticed, not only is the Warsaw Pact extinct, the US is broke. And arms manufacture is about supplying equipment vital to national security, not make-work corporate welfare projects.

How about we just dump the massive financial black hole also known as the JSF, and put a few of the billions saved into building that unnecessary armor?

That suit ya?

Bond & Coyle: Clancy-esque authors specializing in ground wars. Good beach reading if you like your main characters to be equal part human being and hardware

Larry Bond wrote some detailed WWIII novels that took place in Korea and China. Basically the force on force war everyone dreamed of commanding growing up.

Um, Lance, you realize there are more Army tanks on just Fort Hood than in the entire Marine Corps right?

hey Melvin from Berkeley, I have served my country, not doubt you haven’t from the way you talk, and you’re too much of a coward to do anything but complain to those who have served.

So why don’t go back to smoking your weed or shooting up or whatever the h e ll you do to amuse yourself.

I imagine the South Koreans would bear the brunt of any ground war against the North anyway. By the time U.S. tanks make it to the battlefield, the North Korean army will have already been defeated.

And what does that have to do with building more GDLS M-1s?

Nothin’, so if your boyfriend from Force Protection, Inc doesn’t mind giving up his fun place for a moment…

Again, your ignorance is astounding. Your coffee table history book background and fanboy adulation of everything with an Eagle Globe and Anchor fail you again.

It was actually NK tanks that smashed through Task Force Smith and there was quite a bit of tank action up to and including Pusan. Army tanks led much of the offensive up to the Yalu and there was an Army tank company at Chosin. During the stalemate armor was relegated to an Infantry supporting role.

The Marines have about 200 tanks in the whole Corps. There are more than that in ONE Army armor division or heavy infantry division. The Army has several of those. As for tank training, the Army trains Marine tankers.

Most are being phased out in favor of more MRAPS Strikers and other infantry vehicles.

Your insults are nothing ore than ignorance itself. Some tank battles did happen early in the war BUT it was few and far between. most of the Korean war was fought by infantry NOT armored units. the hilly terrain restricts I did NOT say Chinese and NK tanks where on par with ours I said they are not. the Marines have there own training program now since the armor training center at Knox is closed and moved.
http://​www​.marinecorpstimes​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​2​0​1​2​/​0​2​/​m​ari…

I did not say NK and Chinese tanks where on par I said they where inferior.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

You have no clue what you are talking about. All we have been doing for almost two decades now is REMANUFACTURING existing tanks to keep them in service. The only NEW tanks have been for foreign sales.

MRAPs are not MTOE equipment in our formations. As soon as the war is over, most of them will end up in prepositioning warehouses and training areas. Since the Stryker’s inception, 5 brigades have transitioned from their tanks to the new vehicle. With the transformation of the Army to a 4 brigade division, a brigade each from the 1ID, 3ID, 4ID, and 1AD turned in their tanks and their brads in favor of humvees or walking. There are fewer armored vehicles overall in the new construct, not just tanks. The biggest winners in the transformation was the scouts. They just about tripled in size. Did a lot of tanks get mothballed? Yes, but so did a lot of M2s as well. Are “most” being phased out? Hardly.

All we have been doing for almost two decades now is REMANUFACTURING existing M1s & M1A1s to either M1A1 AIM or M1A2 SEP standard (the two standards themselves having been inproved somewhat through the years) while the M1A3 has gone nowhere.____A replacement engine was developed in the 1990s but was cancelled with the Crusader SPH.

We haven’t buitl a NEW tank for the US in almost two decades! All we have been doing is REMANUFACTURING existing tanks to keep them in services.

That is not how it works. You do not & CAN NOT base your force structure on just one threat.

We haven’t built a NEW tank for the US in almost two decades! All we have been doing is REMANUFACTURING existing tanks to keep them in services.

pfcem, was that a glitch or did you really just give the same reply to every single comment on this article?

Lance, that article talks about follow-on training for 2nd Tanks at Lejeune. Initial MOS training will still be done at Benning with the Army.

I think this is politicians as usual trying to use fear as their favorite tool in elections. I am pretty sure the deal GDLS signed the end of last year to produce potentially hundreds of Namers for the IDF will probably keep a few skilled workers gainfully employed in the same Ohio plant this article mentions until 2017.

I’m sure there were plans for a M1A3 back during the Cold War, but I’m talking about the most recent iteration reportedly in development. If it’s going nowhere that should be corrected. There are many things that could be improved upon.

So when it comes time for MBTs, IFVs, APCs, or other armored fighting vehicles of a new design, where do we turn to build them? Industry is something that needs to be maintained.

Accelerate development of the M1A3. Get that going by 2017 instead of just another recap program.

The years of living off the government dime are over, get a real job hippie.

“Industry is something that needs to be maintained.”

The only people who say industry needs to be maintained are those in under-performing companies. If you cant perform you don’t “need to be maintained” you need to die and make way for companies that can.

Oh GDLS will still be around, but what about their expertise in regards to the Abrams series?

Do inform me what other companies in the United States are manufacturing main battle tanks at the moment? You can’t go to your local Ford or Dodge dealer for that sort of hardware.

Says the guy talking tough on an internet comment board…

Pure insanity!!! Well, I guess we can kiss Fulda, The North German Plain & Danube River Valley goodbye!!!

The comment from “As Americans…” is a tad twisted and sick. Why disadvantage others by giving a “reward” to those who built the GD tank. They had jobs, got paid. We can’t afford to do it, and it is wrong anyway. All of these people, regardless of role, want someone else–the Taxpayers–to pay for it, or call them “heroes” or some such. This is pure BS and a vicious slam at all the worthy people in this country who don’t get their due. And it just prolongs the slimy takings of all who drink at the trough of the Mil-Ind Complex. It is revolting, and the person who wrote that comment ought to apologize to us all, eh?

Almost right, VeP. The point a lot of people are missing is that 3/4 of the Abrams fleet has already been upgraded to M1A2 SEP. The remaining quarter simply aren’t urgent. If you pay to mod them in the near term, you can’t afford to do things that ARE urgent (like replacing M113 and HMMWV) or things that the Army cares about more (like developing a real communications network and replacing Bradley IFV).

That said, I’m having a hard time figuring out where that $2.8B number comes from. It hasn’t been costing the Army anything like $700M per year at Lima in recent years, and annual production has been ~21 units (way below the 70/year “minimum” that Odierno cited).

25 years ago before the USSR fell apart, we and NATO feared 45,000 Russian/Warsaw pact tanks coming through the Fulda Gap. Now, we are involved in the Middle East and desert warfare which is the perfect terrain for tanks…With all the economic problems we have and becoming weaker in all spheres of society, we are becoming a “set-up” for enemies/potential enemies…Seems to me we need to at the very least maintain current levels of military strength, get maintenance and training up to par and consolidate our forces…And WTF are we still in Afghanistan for??..Get out, bring troops home and worry about Iran and other radicals…And watch out for Putin!!..he is already blackmailing eastern Europe..He’s wants old USSR back, and he is former KGB/old school…mark my words…He is smart, sly, cunning, dangerous and media savvy!…He is not to be trusted!!!

Its crazy to shut the tank plant. We need to build or rebuild something there to keep the skilled craftsmen and women sharp and available. Larry Bond and Harold Coyle write about armored warfare for those that dont know.

Its just as bad a shuttering the F-22 plant and then shuttering the F-15 plant. What are we going to do when we need those craftspeople? Even if you leave all the manufacturing ability there, the people are going to move where they can use their skills.

Talented designers wont just vanish they will have no trouble finding jobs in the companies formed to manufacture tanks better and more efficiently than GDLS.

The only people that need be worried are the dead wood.

IWhy don’t we learn from history? Tanks save lives. Why don’t we poll the groubd pounders and see how they feel.

LOL how is 1985 ?

When we served it was to serve America not to protect our own entitlements. How things have changed.

You can hear pfcem in 2060

“We haven’t made an aircraft in decades we’ve just been fixing the JSF for 50 years”

Both feet in your mouth without having to sit down. That’s talent!

And that’s gospel!!!

We do not need to pay ‘reserve’ foremen to build one tank a month for the next decade just so that we are prepared to crank up to full capacity in the future. Allow these trained people to go to caterpillar and contribute to our national production again. If they are actually required sometime in the future conscript them through SS as technical experts like we did in WW2. Before anyone says a tank ain’t a bulldozer I agree but the technologies you find in today’s heavy equipment will maintain familiarity.

Well gee we don’t want them to move where they can use their skills to benefit the economy do we — I mean much better we have a make work program that pays them to be unproductive while we wait for a need to arise.

Seriously? Please tell me which of today’s heavy equipment includes a gas turbine engine and associated high speed trasmission? Which have a stabilization and vision system ?
Which have an advanced fire control system? Heck, just look at these three things. . 1. Multiple inches thick armor plate, Gun Barrels and Reactive Armor and tell me where we will draw the expert people to work on them from.

Sorry but companies won’t form to manufacture tanks under Oblat/Itfunk’s system of only paying companies back for their costs. Since there is no profit/fee, there would be no money to pay for the capital improvements and workforce training requried to build tanks so I guess the US will have to use Toyota pickups as their next armored vehicles… just like the advanced forces of Mogadishu

>The point should be that we have such an overwhelming adavantage that nobody wants to be our enemy.

That obviously doesn’t work because we already have an overwhelming advantage and we still have enemies.

Its the military entitlement economy, they think the rest of America should service them.

Sure they will, the entire capitalist system runs like that in fact we shouldn’t pay any of their costs either — let them go and get the money from the market like everyone else has to.

Otherwise simply nationalize the industry.

Oh, I work in private industry and this may be hard for you to grasp but everything that we sell is “marked up” with profit. When we send a tech out on a service call, we charge what it costs us PLUS a profit. I recognize that you think that GDLS, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, etc should not be allowed to get a profit but the rest of the capitalist companies can and do get profits for their work.

Do I have this right — shut down tank production to “save”: $2.8 billion but flush sway hundreds of billions to now bankrupt Solyndra? You can’t make this stuff up! The budget, any budget, is a statement of priorities. The armed forces have their priorities as does POTUS and the 535 clairvoyants on the Hill. Billions for solar, ethanol, bio — fuels (I hear the Navy is paying about $20 per gallon for bio-fuel for its ships), bird choppers and unlimited love for owls, minnows, woodpecker, lizards regardless of cost. A cynic might say military manpower, ships, planes, equipment, training and ammunition well down the list of national priorities.

The M-1 is exactly as relevant to the modern battlefield as the A-10.

“hundreds of billions to now bankrupt Solyndra? ”

WTF? Which alternate reality do you live in?

Solyndra received a $535 Million dollar loan, where the heck did you get billions from?

So what’s a few hundred million dollars lost to a political scam-it’s nothing, Forget about it, It happens almost daily, it’s no big deal. It’s how business is done. It’s normal. Shit happens. Don’t worry about it, Go back to bed. The corrupt politicians and the white house have everything under control, you can sleep soundly now knowing full well that everything will be alright.……ok ok? Your a good kid now, so I know you won’t bring this up again, right? I explained it all to you, everything is cool, now go to sleep now.

He didn’t say they shouldn’t get a profit; he only said they shouldn’t get their profit in advance. Makes sense to me.

(I would add that they shouldn’t get that profit if the thing they produce doesn’t actually work… but I’m a dreamer.)

50 years ago, aerospace companies designed and developed planes, built prototypes, and THEN tried to market them to the military. That system has the advantage that the developers make sensible tradeoffs between desired capability and probability of success. That’s the part of acquisition that is broken at the moment — the services want atomic flying death rays, and the contractors say “No problem, we can develop that for you — cost plus”.

No, he has complained over and over and over again about defense companies that bill the government $1.10 for $1.00 in costs that they incur. That difference is rheir profit (also known as fee) which itfunk says they should not be getting on government work.

@Lance: In your own words: “Both North Korea and China’s tanks would be on par with current US British and Russian and Ukrainian tanks in service. ”

I don’t see “inferior” anywhere in there.

North Korea has a 1.5 million man standing army. So by the time the Abrams roll onto the battlefield, they will all be dead. Your stupidity is mind boggeling. Let me guess. Your 21 to 24 years old, live in your mom’s house, no job, 1.5 years of junior college, and have every type of gaming system available.

To close or not to close, that is the question. But make damn sure we tell the world what it is we are doing, when we are doing it, how long we are doing it, and what the ramifications are. Every enemy we have spends ZERO dollars on intellegence gathering when we are concerned. Why should they, we tell them everything.

Everybody is so focused on urban warfare and smart robots, munitions, and surveillance. What happens when you have an old fashioned fire power battle? Goodness gracious, Cuba has over 500 front line planes and how many tanks? Are we going to go nuclear at the start of an international crisis? What happened to “millions for defence, but not one cent for tribute”? Loss of the workers that can make tanks and planes, and the facilities they work in, is cultural suicide, budget be darned.

except the bad guys

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement