The Falklands War plus 30

The Falklands War plus 30

This month marks three decades since Argentina’s invasion of the Falkland Islands, and by all accounts, the Argentines still want them back.

Protesters burned a Union Jack and an effigy of Prince William outside the British Embassy in Buenos Aires Monday.

The United Kingdom, as we’ve seen, is still committed to defending them. It’s deploying its newest Type 45 destroyer, the HMS Daring, to the South Atlantic in an unsubtle reminder of that fact.


What will come of all this posturing? Nothing.

Although the prospect of a second Falklands War is a perennial topic in the defense world, the odds seem impossibly remote. As the AP’s Brian Hendrie reports, there is almost no appetite for war among Argentines, and it’s hard to imagine a British public deeply disenchanted with Iraq and Afghanistan would go along with an actual shooting war to defend the Falklands again.

More practically, neither country’s armed forces seem up to the task. Both sides today field such smaller fleets of ships and aircraft that it’s hard to imagine commanders risking them in a stand-up fight. The Royal Navy escaped by the skin of its teeth in the Falklands – “six better fuses and we’d have lost,” as the quip held – and neither it nor the Argentines could absorb the same losses today.

The conflict is worth remembering, however, because it teaches some unpleasant but important lessons about technological war:

The fight you plan for may not be the fight you get: The Royal Navy of the early 1980s was shaped with an eye to protecting transatlantic convoys in World War III against the Soviets, not expeditionary amphibious campaigns. Among other things, this meant its air defenses were not ideal – commanders had to pair frigates and destroyers in miniature pickets to compensate for the gaps in the other ships’ sensors. That also meant Argentine pilots could fly in low and score hits on the British fleet in San Carlos Water, although, luckily for the British, several of their bombs did not explode.

We’ve heard so many DoD and service officials cite this principle in their calls for “balance” in the coming build-down, given that there’s no way to know exactly what kind of conflict may come next.

You’ve got to fight with what you have: The Royal Navy got rid of its last traditional aircraft carrier in 1978, leaving it only with the “Harrier carriers” HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible when the Falklands erupted. The Hermes was very old and the Invincible was originally designed for anti-submarine warfare – and neither could field the vital airborne early warning aircraft the navy once had. So commanders had to make do with repurposed ships flying a handful of repurposed aircraft to defend the task group with very limited domain awareness. It worked, but only just.

Your losses are going to be worse than you think: The British lost six major ships, including two destroyers and two frigates; ten were badly damaged. The Royal Navy and British Army’s losses could have been much worse if more Argentine weapons had detonated and Argentine pilots attacked more of the British troop carriers, as opposed to their warship escorts.

The war cost more than 100 Argentine aircraft, according to John Roberts’ history of the Royal Navy, “Safeguarding the Nation,” as well as its cruiser General Belgrano, a submarine and other vessels. And a single loss can have disproportionate consequences, as with the sinking of the cargo ship Atlantic Conveyor, which carried the helicopters British troops were counting on to carry them across the Falklands. Without them, they had to walk.

The units or capabilities you think will change the game may not: The Argentine fleet, including its carrier, stayed mostly in port after the sinking of the General Belgrano, removing a threat from the British task force and a potentially potent Argentine weapon. The Royal Air Force, which attempted a long-distance attack with Vulcan bombers on Argentine positions on the Falklands, had little effect on the war.

Troops on the ground are what win the war: The Royal Navy standing offshore could not have fought and beaten the Argentine troops that occupied the Falklands. It had to deliver the forces that actually ejected the invaders.

Your battle fleet is not the full measure of your combat power: The Royal Navy’s task force depended on support from merchant ships taken up from trade, as well as its own auxiliaries. The ability to marshal this kind of logistics support is as important as fielding warships.

What other lessons should we draw 30 years after the Falklands?

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“The fight you plan for may not be the fight you get”- “we’re only going to be chasing pirates and drug dealers, that’s why we building the LCS”

“You’ve got to fight with what you have” All of those fancy new flight IIA Burkes are going are to be very sorry they don’t have any ASW and ASuW capabilities. Secondly, we going to find out very quickly how very precious our few oilers really are.

“The units or capabilities you think will change the game may not” Stealth will not win the next war, numbers will be the ultimate decider

“Troops on the ground are what win the war” Yep, AND we will not have friendly ports, runways, and months and months of time to do it next time

“Your battle fleet is not the full measure of your combat power” Logistics will be key for any future major conflict. Without the luxury of close friendly ports and airstrips, the oilers, supply ships, troop carriers will play the most important roles. Does anyone remember the concept of convoys-guess what? We going to have to learn that minor skill all over again.

“Some conflicts never die. The combatants in them just take a break.”

In this case the Argies had all the technological advances, night-vision, fully automatic FN’s, Minefields, Artillery, anti-ship missiles, the list goes on. It was superior training, determination, and resolve that won this war for the British, despite all the technology.

Overall the Argentinians attack in the wrong decade now would be better since the UK has NO fighter or any fixed wing aircraft for carriers and lacks enough surface ships to protect a amphibious force. Overall superior training and tactics proved superior over the Banana republic army’s of South America. Some are modernizing Brazil is one exception but overall look at the Royal Navy of 82 vs 12 its night and day. Fell sorry for British sailor having the politicians take there mighty Navy away.

and a LOT of luck, they could’ve easily lost 3 or 4 more ships and perhaps the entire conflict

As the article points out, Argentina might have a slight edge over the Brits for a repeat performance, but would the Falklands be worth having their military smashed in a second time? Whatever they would lose in such a conflict they’d probably never be able to replace.

If the Argies managed to take the islands, I’d say we’d have a tough time taking them back, near impossible without the Invincibles and harriers. But I’m not convinced they’d be able to take them this time around. The garrison is far larger now with a flight of Typhoons at RAF Mt Pleasant.
The sneak attack element is also out now. With the intelligence aparatus we have, we’d know it was coming weeks in advance and would fly in reinforcements to RAF Mt Pleasant before the Argies even left port; troops and vehicles by C17’s, as well as extra Typhoons and Tornados in a matter of days.
The Type 45 on station would make mincemeat of Argie aircraft, not to mention the couple of Trafalgar class submarines probably lurking somewhere in the South Atlantic, armed not only with torpedoes of course, but also Tomahawk cruise missiles, which this time around I doubt we’d have any problem firing off at mainland airbases such as the one in Tierra del Fuego from where most of the Argie sorties were launched last time around.

And in response to the article itself which doubted the will of the British people — you’re right that we’ve probably had enough of Iraq and Afghanistan, but if the Argies took another crack at the Falklands, in my opinion the entire nation would support a swift and very violent response.
That all being said, lets hope cooler heads prevail this time around. Rest in peace to all who didn’t come home last time, on both sides.

Possible they could take it but this time I seriously doubt the US would remain neutral and the Brits would have serious US support, at least one CBG and USAF logistical support (tankers, airlift and AWACS/Rivet Joint/Global Hawk) at a minimum…

Once again they would be ejected and suffer a mortal military blow, this time not just confined to the Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falklands…

As much as we’d appreciate it mate, I’m not sure we could count on US support if it happened again. Reagan and Maggie Thatcher were close personally, and US support was vital in 82. However Obama and Sec. Clinton have both referred to the Islands as “Las Malvinas”, and called for a negotiated settlement on the issue. A slap in the face to the so-called “special relationship” if you ask me.

Where is Exeter, Ajax and Achilles when you need them? Or Cumberland?
The UK is still a maritime nation and they should not forget that.

Disagree man. The U.S. would most likely give a lot of support with Special Operations troops and logistics. Special Ops is going to be how we fight our wars from now on anyway. (We finally got something right.) And as far as logistics, we’ve become pretty proficient at moving crap halfway around the world. But I do think the troops on the ground, and that you see on TV would be British. I mean it’s ya’lls fight. It’s been that way for us in Iraq and Afganistan. Yeah there have been British troops there the whole time with us (which says a lot by the way) but they’ve been guys assigned to a specific task or rather are uniquely skilled.

The announcement of large oil deposits in and around the Falklands puts a new focus on the area. The development of Oil resources there should be a boon to British Coffers and maybe an incentive to work together for a more fruitful and Peaceful region. It could be a Win-Win for both sides if handled properly…

The four Ohio class SSGN conversions have proven themselves very useful to the US. Maybe the UK should consider acquiring a few SSGN based on their upcoming Vanguard replacement SSBN. Those could be similarly useful to the UK, and might also give pause to Argentina and others who might consider trying to bloody some Brit noses.

The Falklands are a potentially mineral rich source of future vital necessities for the UK. They know it. The Argies know it. The whole world knows that! The thousands of Falklands natives there wish to remain British. They fear and hate Argentina… with good reason. There is no legitimate reason for the Argies to attack and seize this island group, which the Brits took from Spain back in 1833. It would simply be a naked imperialist power grab by Argentina, meant to deflect a never ending series of internal problems to “a greedy, external ambition”. At best, Argentina has shown itself neutral in every conflict involving we Americans. We owe Argentina nothing. Hopefully, we will never lose our resolve to provide the UK with what ever is militarily required to stave off Argentina’s fanatical desire to seize the Falklands. Nothing more needs to be said on this matter!

What I think we learned from the Falklands War was that if you’re fighting a well-trained high-morale force with modern equipment, there is no “make do with what you’ve got”. If you put ships with no antiaircraft capability into a narrow strait that’s within strike range of supersonic aircraft, you’re gonna get your clock cleaned no matter how much fighting spirit and inventiveness you have.

So, 1833 + 150 years exactly from this British taking of the Faulklands? Pretty coin idental timing i think Maybe there’s a reason Argentina expected it to be their land at the end of 1982??

Different actors same story. Give a man a fish and you will have to give him another fish the next day. Teach a man to fish and the next day he comes back with armed friends, takes your equipment, and tells you, You can not fish there anymore. Happens with US business all the time in the middle east. China is doing it to Apple right now with software. Iran did it over oil, and Cuba did it over baccker and sugar. Nothing new under the Sun.

The comment about the British being weary of Afghanistan and having no appetite for a shooting war to defend the Falklands again could only have been written by a youngster with no sense of British history and resolve. The Brits are indeed war-avoiding diplomacy-loving hand-wringers — but only up to a very certain point. Just ask the Germans. Once you activate their British steel backbone, insult their flag, and threaten their island nation (keeping in mind they have a genetic predisposition to defend ANY British island) then you will see the ghost of Nelson and the Spitfires of the new millennium rise once again. Never underestimate the Brits. Piss them off, and they will come for you.

I agree. Obama would stand back and cheer for the Argies. At the same time telling the Brits we’re behind you (way behind)!

The British public is undoubtedly jaded about our involvement in Iraq. Primarily because our than leader Tony Blair deliberately misled us about our reasons for going to war and Iraq’s capabilities. The publlc is unsure of what our involvement in Afghanistan has actually acheived and how its preventing terrorist attacks in the UK and our allies. The original war may have had a lot to do with our desire to prove to the Soviets that we would protect W. Berlin and W. Germany from Soviet attack and that threat is no longer present. However anti-Argie feelings are never far from the surface and if there is one thing we do like it’s a nice scrap with a hated enemy. Every Brit firmly believes that the Falklanders are British and want to stay that way.

As for the idea that we took the Falkland’s off the Spanish that’s bit off a fallacy. In fact because the Falklands are quite large and desolate Britain and Spain had settlements there for years without either side being aware of the presence of the other. When Spain “handed” over the Falklands to Argentina when it retreated from South America, it just simply wasn’t the Spanish to give as by than they were 100% British.

British naval capabilities and our military in general have unfortunately being severely reduced especially since 2010. With the loss of about a quarter of the infantry, half the armoured cavalry, the loss of our carriers, Harriers, Nimrod Maritime Reconnaissance aircraft as well as the continuing problems with the Eurofighter Typhoon. However the Argies have virtually no decent ASW capability, their subs are poor, no carriers, and no new frigates or destroyers since the ‘80s. The Trafalgar and Astute classes of SSNs combined with the Spearfish torpedo should make short work of their fleet given the right Rules of Engagement. The Type 45 destroyer whilst new and un-battle tested would make light work of their Super-Entendards and any remaining A-4 Skyhawks.
If the Argies were to carry out a proposal that they had in 1982 which was to remove Britain’s claim from the Falkland’s by killing the entire British populace. Public support for an “above ground nuclear test” in the Falklands killing the entire Argie occuping force would become extremely popular.

Don’t get me wrong mate, I’m sure the US people and military would be right behind us, but I don’t think Obama would be willing to throw down, I just don’t see it. He doesn’t seem to understand how important the Falkland Islanders’ sovereignty is not just to Britain but to the Islanders themselves of course. Calling for a negotiated settlement on “Las Malvinas” as he put it, was a slap in the face to the long standing, close bonds between our two countries which share so much in history, values and culture. Based purely upon his handling of this issue (along with Sec Clinton), I unfortunately lost respect for the Obama administration, hoping Romney wins in November.

That oil revenue belongs to the Falkand Islanders, not the UK. Argentina are just trying to get their grubby little paws on it. If they held the Falklands, how much revenue do you think the Islanders would see?
Of course, there is a benefit to the UK in that British companies will be getting the contracts for pulling the oil out and it will give the UK some oil independence in the form of reliable supplies not from the Persian Gulf, but other than that the benefit is purely for the Falklands people, who understandably do not want to share it with Argentina and will not be bullied into doing so.

Amen mate, Rule Britannia!

There is a difference, though. The Brits have built up their military presence on the Falklands. 30 years ago there was none. Now, the RAF has an airbase on the islands with aircraft and other military resources.

The UK needs to hold their ground in the Falklands. The population is British and proud of it. And, they want to remain a part of the UK. That is a position the U.S. should support.
http://​pnews​.falklands​.info/​i​n​d​e​x​.​p​h​p​?​o​p​t​i​o​n​=​c​om_

If there is any question about the Falklands, take a look at the newspaper website. http://​pnews​.falklands​.info/

Sad, but true. 0bama is no friend of Britain.

Even more specifically, Argentina in the mid-20th century was a friend to fascist movements in Italy and Germany — it was the last Latin American state to sever ties to Nazi Germany, ties that remained until January 1944. Things got so bad that the US established a legal embargo of Argentine goods and concocted a scheme with Brazil to overthrow the Argentine government. Argentina only declared war on Nazi Germany in March 1945 and never declared war on Italy.

Except for Carlos Menem’s term, the nationalist/socialist/Peronists that have dominated Argentine politics since have been no friend of democracy or the US, refusing to support any international criticism of Cuba and claiming ownership of swaths of Antarctica, in contravention to major treaties on the issue.

It is a total write-off.

The Spanish removed a British settlement in 1770, that would seem to allow the British to treat any future visitors to the islands the same way.

If only Britain had that still!

Amen.

As the Army build a “Ground Combat Vehicle” that’s only 30 tons away from Hilter’s Maus. As the Air Force cuts A-10’s and dumps the C-27. As the Navy goes gaga for the LCS…

The Brits can show weakness at times, but when you start messing around with what they perceive as their territory then watch out. This is just a case of the Argentine President trying to impress her buddy Hugo Chavez and show how tough she is. This is going to backfire, bigtime!

The Falklands are inhabited by English speaking UK citizens threatened by a Fascist state determined on colonialist expansion. Self determination alone should decide the issue.

If you follow the Argies logic Cuba should be an American state.

Not to mention the F-35 series…

The US has repeatedly stated it’s neutral in the current disagreement. Anyone who thinks the current administration would side with Britain to any real extent is fooling themselves.

Britain would be YOYO.

It will be interesting when the Official Secrets Act relative to the Falklands War expires in the UK. Lots of rumors and sea stories among the US military that will, once made official, rewrite what we think we know about what happened thirty years ago.

1) Did the RN sink a Soviet sub on May 1 that got too close to the task force? We know the Soviets offered to sink one of the Brit carriers for the Argentines, that’s been documented in numerous sources, including Freedman’s offical Falklands War history and in SecSt Haig’s book. The RN’s expertise was tracking and attacking Soviet subs, so they’d have been very capable of doing so.

2) Did USAF KC-135s in-flight refuel British aircraft during the war? Not just Black Buck raids, but also Nimrods, Victors, Hercs, and RAF Harriers (that flew direct to the task force)? I’ve spoken to former KC-135 aircrew who’ve confirmed they did refuel the Brits.

3) How much help did the Brits get during the war from South Africa? If what I’ve been told is true, a lot. Most of it was logistical support, and may have included British access to the former RN base at Simonstown. Also rumors of SAAF aircraft (Shackletons?) providing anti-sub/maritine patrols ahead of the task force as it sailed south. In return, the South Africans are said to have gotten badly needed spares for their Buccaneers. The cooperation was kept very quiet due to the world’s opinion of the SA apartheid policies.

4) What was the true extent of Peru’s support of the Brits. Some of this has come out, but rumors are the involvement was much more significant that what’s been reported.

xbradtc–

Come now. Mr. Obama would direct Mrs. Clinton to form a committee to work on a plan to considered asking the Argies to pursue a nominally peaceful approach while at the same time asking the UN to look into the matter.

That’s called an “aggressive foreign policy”.

Not necessarily. The US supplied the Brits with, among other things, the AIM-9L all aspect missile which was a distinct advantage over the 9Js the Argentines had.

Ironically, however, the all-aspect capability of the Limas never came into play, all the missile shoot downs were from dead astern, or very close to it.

The Argentines only fired missiles at the SHARs on a couple ocassions, I think they Israeli Pythons, not Sidewinders.

What lessons should we draw from 30 years later? Building warships on the cheap means dead sailors. Damage control requires more men, and modern ships have automated so many tasks to save on crew requirements that the ships are likely to be dead in the water on the first hit. We have focused so much effort on lifesaving of the crew that we have neglected the primary mission : keeping the ship as a viable fighting unit. Its a nice sentiment to save as many of the crew as possible to fight another day, but it doesnt make any sense to spend 50% of the design/build costs on crew lifesaving measures if the ship wont survive the impact of a single enemy warhead. It would be better to put some really good anti-missile defense and some anti-penetration countermeasures like reactive armor than it would to put a fire suppression system that renders the ship unusable. And for the sake of future engineers/designers, no more aluminum superstructures!

g) Britain is nowadays the major military power in the South Atlantic (the argentine government itself said this!).
h) Even if the invasion occurs and Argentina wins, we have to remember that the UK doesn’t loose a war since the American Revolution (1776/1783!). No british government can accept to loose a war without a fight. Like in 1940, the government would try to get enough time and resources to rearm the nation. They would probably get back the aircraft carrier that is off dutty because of the cuts, envolve France in the fight (because of the french carrier that France shares with UK), destroy the argentine bases with tomahawk missiles, enroll merchant ships to the fight, etc. Then they would give an ultimatum to Buenos Aires and send a task force.

I think we should not forget this:
a) The argentine navy is much weaker now than in 1982, and this time they don’t have the element of surprise. The british intelligence would find out about the invasion weeks before it was launched.
b) The royal navy is smaller in numbers and doesn’t has carriers (at least until 2018), but it is still the 2nd most powerfull in the world, in terms of power projection and firepower. It could stop the invasion with just two nuclear submarines and a type 45 destroyer, that is probably the most advanced anti-air ship in the world. The Rafalles and other old planes pf the argentine air force wouldn’t stand a chance against a Type 45 destroyer.
c) A single RN nuclear submarines would not only keep the whole argentine fleet in its harbour (like in 1982), and also bomb Buenos Aires itself with Tomahawk missiles (that they didn’t had in 1982). It’s a considerable threat. A single submarine with Tomahawk missiles could blow with the presidencial palace in Buenos Aires and the argentine navy and air force wouldn’t have the capability to stop it.

d) The British are a proud people and they would’t accept the argentine invasion. It would be a war to defend british soil and not to get iraq’s oil. The people knows the difference.
e) The RAF has 4 Tiphoon jets in the islands, and also a airstrip that didn’t existed in 1982 and that can be used to quiclky send reinforcements from the UK. The argentine air force has no chance against the tiphoon.
f) There is a strong british garrison in the Falklands, that can be reinforced in just 72 hours.

Josh, You are corect 100%! Obama’s complete foreign policy is based on his father“s anti-colonial views. He, Leon Panetta and Secretary Clinton view the Falklands(and all of the world) as stolen from its rightful owners, hence the “las Malvinas” statements. Lets not forget one of the lynchpins of his Nuclear Arms Reduction treaty with Putin was to give away all the availible info including targeting info for the Royal Navy’s Balistic missles. The British have been with us thru thick and thin for over 150 years, we, the USA, have been the unreliable ally the last 24.

Actually Josh, that moron referred to them as “Las Maldives”.…and I would be insulted if I were a Brit, too.

I think they lost the War of 1812 too…

About the only thing that could have and will stir both nations to aggresive operations is oil deposits. The Chaco war between two peacful nations Bolivia and Paraguay went to war over it and in this case history will repeat itself.
http://​militaryconflicts​.blogspot​.ca

Despite the morality of using violence to achieve personal or political aims, the fact remains that Countries exist because of wars fought against their neighbours or rivals. Independence is largely secured through the employment of armed forces and the willingness to fight if threatened, this alone prepares us all for such an eventuality.

I commend you on your site it contains a lot of quality information and is well done.

http://​www​.greatmilitarybattles​.com/​h​t​m​l​/​b​a​t​t​l​e_o

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