Despite whistle-blowing pilots, AF is unmoved on F-22

Despite whistle-blowing pilots, AF is unmoved on F-22

So what if two Air Force F-22 pilots went on “60 Minutes” Sunday to warn the jet might be unsafe and admit they’ve asked not to fly it? The Air Force is so confident in the F-22 it volunteered its defense a day early.

The service had an official story posted Saturday headlined “ACC confident in F-22,” — for Air Combat Command — and it quoted ACC boss Gen. Mike Hostage affirming he was so confident in the Raptor, he’s going to start flying it himself.

Here was the word:


Hostage said he understands there are still concerns about the aircraft; however, he explained that there’s always a certain amount of risk involved, and the risk must be balanced with the requirement for the capability.

“In a peacetime training circumstance, we want to operate at as low of risk is prudent for the level of training we get out of a mission,” he said. “When we go into combat, risk goes up, but the reason to assume that risk goes up as well. We live in a community where risk is part of our lives,” he said. “If we think the risk has gone to a level where we just can’t accept it, we either reduce that risk or eliminate it. But right now, we believe that risk –although it’s not as low as we would like it — is low enough to safely operate the airplane at the current tempo.”

Hostage said he believes this risk is not a risk he expects his airmen to take alone. In an effort to learn more about the aircraft and get a better understanding of what F-22 pilots are dealing with, ACC’s commander will soon begin flying the Raptor.

“I’m asking these guys to assume some risk that’s over and above what everybody else is assuming, and I don’t feel like it’s right that I ask them to do it and then I’m not willing to do it myself — that’s not fair,” he said, adding that the day they figure out what the problem is the day he will stop flying. Since the aircraft resumed flying operations in September, the F-22 has flown more than 12,000 sorties and returned to operational capability.

But Hostage’s “daring young men in their flying machines” rhetoric contrasts badly with the accounts of the two Virginia Air National Guard pilots who talked with “60 Minutes” on Sunday. Maj. Jeremy Gordon and Capt. Josh Wilson told correspondent Lesley Stahl that the Air Force is effectively using its Raptor pilot corps as test dummies, “collecting data” on problems with the jets’ onboard oxygen systems because the various standdowns and investigations didn’t work. Stahl quoted an email from a third F-22 pilot that said the Raptor drivers had become “the most expensive group of lab monkeys ever assembled.”

And as Stahl reported, the Air Force’s attempts to resolve the oxygen problems were, in some cases, making them worse: When engineers fitted charcoal filters they hoped would protect crews from bad air, it actually caused pilots to inhale the charcoal itself and cough up black stuff after their missions. Even before that attempt, Gordon said there always was a “Raptor cough:” “In a room full of F-22 pilots, the vast majority will be coughing a lot of the times. Other things– laying down for bed at night after flying and getting just the spinning room feeling, dizziness, tumbling, vertigo kind of stuff,” he said.

Gordon, Wilson and “60 Minutes” characterized the Raptor problem in the starkest possible terms: Unless the Air Force no-kidding fixes this airplane, there could be blood on its hands, they warned. Pilots could lose their situational awareness flying over a populated area and not only put themselves and their fighter in danger, but everyone below. And although Stahl and “60 Minutes” didn’t mention this, DoDBuzz readers know the F-22 line is closed, so any Raptor losses would diminish the full fleet without any chance of replacement.

Now this hot potato could pass into the hands of Congress, where lawmakers have nodded eagerly and accepted the reassurances of Air Force officials who have promised they’re getting to the bottom of this. The Senate Armed Services Committee’s air-land panel is scheduled to meet Tuesday, and if the F-22 issue comes up, it’ll be interesting to watch whether the Air Force continues digging in, or begins to moderate its messaging.

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A quote come to mind: “This is why we can’t have nice things.”

I seriously think the USAF screws over the other services with it’s expensive bomber and fighter programs. The amount of money that the JSF and F-22 have sucked up is obscene. For all that money we only got 187 Raptors that supposedly threaten the life of the pilot just as much as they would an enemy and no results at all with the JSF. What the heck is going on with the USAF?

Couldn’t have said it better. I have no saying in the difficulty it takes to fix these types of issues and i am sure its very strenuous work trying to solve it, but with that said i feel like it shouldn’t be this damn hard, especially with lives in unneccesary danger.

We only got 187 Raptors because Congress cut the amount to be procured, not the Air Force. The service just went along with what they were told to do. As for the JSF, that’s a joint service aircraft that is still in development. What the hell are you talking about with “no results” when it’s not even operational yet.

I’d also like some examples of “nice things” the other services aren’t getting because of the Air Force.

Exactly what “whistle” was blown here? The implication is that some type of cover up is going on, and I don’t think there is any indication of that. The AF is extremely aware of this issue and it is receiving the attention of some extremely smart people and some extremely senior people.

I bet the Japanese and the Aussies would still buy them if they could

I wonder if Skynet is behind these crashes…

And don’t blame the Air Force for the amount of money going into the F-35. Don’t forget that the Navy is in there too developing the Navy version and also the Marince Corps version.

Congressman Kinzinger’s plane doesn’t have any OBOGS issues. I’d say just let these to ANG guys jump on over to a KC135 or a C130 and keep flying.

These pilots are little bitch3s

There should absolutely be Congressional hearings. Our military culture has deteriorated to the point where we cannot trust anything officers say unless a report is made by independent government investigators with the power to subpoena witnesses who must tell the truth under the threat of jailtime for perjury. Look at what Maj Jeremy Gordon said during the interview about the F-22 when asked what makes the F-22 so special: “The ability to know what’s going on all the way around you all the time.” Capt Josh Wilson: “It is just a phenomenal, phenomenal machine.” When our military members are so brainwashed that they will still repeat the F-22 marketing propaganda over and over again even when refusing to fly the systems we taxpayers have paid millions, billions, and trillions to train them on, then we need to FEAR for our country. Time to clean house. We need a new President every 4 years and a new Congress every 2 years until we get some serious reversal in trend indicators.

You should read the whole 60 Minutes story. The pilots requested to be put on do not fly status, which means they won’t get flight pay, and will likely have adverse impact on their careers. They have applied for protection under the Whistleblower’s Protection Act. http://​www​.cbsnews​.com/​8​3​0​1​-​1​8​5​6​0​_​1​6​2​-​5​7​4​2​7​4​3​2​/is

someone posted interesting comment on the 60 Minutes page at cbs: “Cybdiver”: “my 2 cents. The weapons bay is sealed during flight and the missles have toxic fuel. No one finds the toxic fumes becuase as soon as the plane goes wheels down the fumes are vented out. Try venting the weapons.”

The potential for hypoxia is outweighed by NOT GETTING SHOT OUT OF THE SKY during combat!

The worst thing about the F-35 is the requirements for VTOL and to be able to operate off of carriers. We need an F16 replacement, not an “everything” replacement. If the marines want a VTOL aircraft let them go develop one and let the navy develop it’s own carrier aircraft.

That’s an interesting theory, I hope it is read by someone within the program who can look into it.

The F4 , A6, A4 etc all had bottled O2 and I don’t remember issues. Not fancy — they worked. Why do we have to make something complicated that isn’t. I cannot believe there isn’t room in that plane to place the older system that worked. A heck of a lot cheaper way to fix the problem than ruining pilots whose careers are finished or replacing an airplane. Please tell me what is at issue. I do understand extra ground equipment but———-

Congress cut the funding (because that’s their job), but they were split on the issue. SECDEF Gates made the decision to cut the F-22 in favor of funding the F-35 and got enough of Congress to agree with him. Plenty of Congressmen with a stake in the F-22 didn’t want it to end yet.

If the problem is as serious as the pilots allege, then the potential for hypoxia means falling out of the sky before the enemy even shows up to the fight.

I wonder is the AIR FORCE scientific advisory board the only group of qualified engineers that have investigated the issue? If so, then I suggest Congress legislate for & fund a fully independent engineerining team to interview all relevant parties to determine the problem and to develop engineering modification options to the system.

I read it, but I see nothing new. If they don’t want to fly, then don’t fly, or go fly something else. The whole tone of the 60 Minutes piece indicates there’s some sort of cover up going on…I fail to see it.

Black Owl you are correct that the $ sucked by JSF and F-22 is obscene, however your statement that the “USAF screws over the other services” is unfair and may reveal signficant bias on your behalf. All the Services commit acquisition, and other, blunders, and one could argue that all of these expensive failures screw the other services.… however no one makes these accusations about the other Services, they only make them about the USAF. What’s up with that???

Nobody is designing new aircraft with LOX. LOX is hard to get at/to austere bases and hard /dangerous to produce at sea. The F18 uses OBOGS, although I think it is a different OEM. And…I have read where they have had issues as well.

The AF whole identity is wrapped up in this aircraft. It could be a flying coffin and they still wouldn’t give it up.

But it’s not just these 2 pilots. The USAF senior leaders are under immense pressure to validate the F-22 and prove it is a combat ready capability. But it’s got a serious problem and an unacceptable % of the Raptop pilots, possibly even a majority, do not have faith in the system and want it fixed, which will cause more time, money, and embarassment to USAF leadership. There is a serious question that needs to be addressed if the plane should be grounded or not while problem is investigated. I’m sure the USAF leadership would like this handled as quietly and least costly as possible. But if we truly care about the pilots, then we need an independent investigation and technical solution developed that is free from the constraints of coercion and bias caused by the pressure on USAF leadership to keep the Raptor flying.

or atleast investigate & develop a solution that is free from the constraints of cost, schedule, and political pressure. The 60 Minutes story said about the USAF “They plan to install a new filter — date undetermined”. 60 Minutes did a disservice by not investigating this further, like asking the pilots about their opinion on what they think of the next proposed solution, and also not really pressing them on the question of whether or not they think the USAF should ground the jet again. Both pilots dodged that question.

ain’t that the truth people should review the accident rates from the 50’s and 60’s. Navy jets with 8000–10,000 lbs of thrust and no margin for error, these guys get paid to take risks if their acceptable risk is too low to fly then they should resign and move on and mow their lawns on the weekend.

I like how some hardliners are calling these pilots weak. While in the old days accident rates were much higher… this could be attributed to price and mass production. For the price all of us americans paid in tax money for this system… i dont mind mishaps as they are a fact of life… but lingering safety issues?

one of the pilots received a Distinguished Service Cross. and the 2 pilots are hardly alone in their criticism of the aircraft. There are systematic problems with the F-22 and its community, as well as ACC & USAF HQ, that need to be investigated & addressed.

As long as Air Force Command will claim any future losses of the aircraft are listed as pilot error, why would you as a pilot want to fly one. You and your family would have that stigma attached to you when its the aircraft fault due to lack of oxygen. Dont say that wont happen because it does happen more often than you think. Aircraft has a problem, crashes and they always blame pilot error whether it is or not because it takes the monkey off the military if you blame the pilot espescially if he is dead. He cant defend himself from the grave.

Maybe I’m just focused on the USAF because they are the ones that have done that far worse than the other services, but you’re right. The Navy’s LCS is starting to look a lot like the F-35 and I can’t say that the V-22, which is used by all of the services was exactly as smooth as it could have been in terms of design and cost.

That’s true. The Marines put all their eggs in the JSF and have been pushing hard for it. The Navy at least has a back up plan with the Super Hornet. A sizable part of the Navy quietly would like to just ditch the F-35 and buy Super Hornets, but will continue to give public support to the F-35C. I personally think the Navy’s being pressured into doing it because if they drop F-35C the prices of the other models will increase.

didn’t they blame the F-22 crash in Alaska on the pilot.…. because he couldn’t find the emergeny oxygen pull ring?

DC2

It is a Catch-22 for the AF. They grounded the jet previously and collected tons and tons of data, which has been crunched and crunched. That did not produce a “fix”. The only way to figure out the issue is to fly the airplane and collect more data; hence the “lab monkey” comments. We all assume this is a technology problem, but it may be physiological. The Navy is having similar problems, but you aren’t hearing about it.

Having worked many issues like this.. many times the answer is already there in the data, or the people closest to the situation already know the answer, but there is a cultural problem with implementing the solution, like fear of reprisal, lack of money, or reputations at stack. Defense acquisitions have been on GAO’s high risk list for years for systemic problems. You need something like the Gansler report on the systemic woes in Army contracting to get the cold, hard truth about what is wrong, if you want meaningful, lasting, cultural change. http://​www​.army​.mil/​d​o​c​s​/​G​a​n​s​l​e​r​_​C​o​m​m​i​s​s​i​o​n​_​R​e​por.…

The problem is the USAF leadership has stuck there head in the sand not wanting to hear there gem of the last decade needs a major overhaul in a key are of its features… life support. Overall how many incidents will happen before they move to act. Its just sad.

Yes, they did. I’m betting he was blacking out pretty hard to not be able to find it.
The brain doesn’t work without Oxygen. Getting to the stages of tunnel vision and “Gone Fishin” doesn’t take long. By the time you realize you’re in trouble it’s usually too late.
I’d bet my god that he knew exactly where it was and was physically able to get at it but was too delirious to manage the thought process.
Go look at those Astronaut trainings where they spin around until they black out. You go from WEEEE to zzZZZzzzZZZzzz in no time at all. Same thing only you’re lacking the blood instead of Oxygen.

I remember reading about a week ago that other pilots in the air force were having this problem. Namely the U2s.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the altitude they fly at.
The story is in this months Air and Space.

If Donely and Schwartz were found to have interfered with the federal whistle-blower act, (they are ultimately responsible–they are the boss) they need to be fired.

Wow, you guys are total assholes. Have you ever had to risk your life or career for anything?

Interesting alternate reality.

Not sure what hood it does for the GEN top hop into the cockpit. He’s got plenty of air in his head to offset whatever definciencies pilots experience. Of course im sure extra precautions will be taken during his flights … as addes negative press wouldnt be good :)

I seriously think you need a long stay in a padded room. You and the rest of the hysterical old women on this thread need to get a grip. Lots of aircraft have had issues to work through. There’s a reason the F-16’s nickname was “Lawndart” at one point.

So, Gen Hostage is going to get qual’d in the F-22. So, does that mean the Air force is going to discard the lessons it learned from the Lt Gen Bobby Bonds and Gen Creech incidents?

Install the autonomous ground avoidance system on expensive fast jet like this.

The internet…gotta love it.

Older models of USAF aircraft used liquid O2 with no problems. LOX requires some special ground handling equipment; however, it isn’t complicated, and the Air Force was using it in the early ‘60s. Over 50 years experience with LOX should be sufficient.

As for the JSF: IMO, that is civilian foolishness revisited. The services were forced into the TFX — - and the “joint” portion ended up in the scrap heap. The F-111 was the only product. A Joint fighter is going to result in tradeoffs that are detrimental to an aircraft designed for a single Service. Why do USAf aircraft airframes have to be built to withstand carrier landings and catapult takeoffs. Even the avionics are patched for Air Force, Navy and Marine birds, as the missions and armaments differ. And, as for building them for export — - — that requires even more compromises.

Oh, and does anyone REALLY believe the JSF will survive in any form of an air combat role against Russian and Chinese fighters?

None of the planes you mention had to tangle with Boyle’s Law and Armstrong’s Line.

Just a thought.

For all of the discussion that this issue is getting, and rightfully so, I am surprised that almost nobody mentions Boyle’s Law and Armstrong’s Line. I am actually disappointed in how relatively simple and basic people’s criticism of the issue tend to be. Are we that far removed from what level of technology a fighter aircraft has and what limits we are talking about having to overcome for the F-22 to actually be as advanced as it is? When I read about Boyle’s law and Armstrong’s line, and how U-2 pilots have now been involved in assisting with the Raptor pilot issues, I don’t conclude that this plane is a waste because the F-4 didn’t have this issue, I come to the conclusion that this plane is the most recent example of us trying to push the limits that we haven’t tried to push in decades.

Sorry, but my generation doesn’t seem akin to pushing limits much anymore and I think that society as a whole, has become overly risk averse. We designed this thing to operate where others simply cannot. And not just operate, but to thrive. How many of those bad ass aeronautical engineers from 20 years with experience in the space program, the SR-71 and U-2 ago are still around? How long ago did the F-22 achieve true Operational capability, where we had adequate numbers to train to fight at altitudes and speeds beyond what our previous fighters do? Is it fair to say that the F-22 finally got up there and ran into this issue as a by-product of being a pioneering platform?

Don’t get me wrong, pilots being exposed to this kind of continuing risk is unacceptable but these are the only pilots in the world that do what they do. The Air Force should settle for nothing less than a 100% solution. My fear is that maybe it isn’t as simple as it sounds and maybe we aren’t as smart or experienced about overcoming these types of issues as we used to be when we had more of a pioneering and “overcome anything” disposition.
I am not intending to be dismissive of others ideas or criticisms. I frequent many of these sights and hold many of the bloggers and commenters here in relatively high regard to issues that I simply don’t have enough information myself to form an educated opinion.

My intention is to get responses that generate discussion and better inform me and other interested readers on what this issue is actually all about..

Regards,

For the little that I know the f-18’s OBOG issue was caused by exhaust getting in the system. The f-22, however, seems to have a problem of a totally different kind, and should be thoroughly investigated.

I also believe that they should implement bottle of medical grade oxygen, the same that most if not every worker in chemical industries are breathing,. from company like air liquide. For the little count of f-22 out there, logistical problems won’t be that big.

This OBOG should be still tested, not implemented.

I agree.

An astronaut risking to be killed by space garbage, somehow is part of the jobs and to some extents totally unavoidable. It can be an exciting risk.

A worker being exposed to UNKNOWN chemical substance with UNDEFINED effects, while no corrective decision are taken is a complete different risk. It may not just kill you, at best you can end up sterile, at worst you can end up having child with anomalies, retarded, sick; the same can happen to your wife.

There is a huge difference between a pilot risking his life with an old fighter jet and one risking his life because of chemical exposition. That’s where we are with the f-22.

And for those who think that toxins only mean a little something to fight, those whom got informed about chemical hasard while working in a McDonald, should read (link below) this, more specifically the ‘Hazard symbols — Health’ and ‘Risk phrases’. And be aware that many chemicals substance are categorized as having unknown effects, including <Put some Risk phrases here>.
http://​www​.hse​.gov​.uk/​c​h​i​p​/​p​h​r​a​s​e​s​.​htm

Its greatest impact will be that the pressure inside the bottle will increase, with implication. That’s hardly unmanageable.

Nasa already used oxygen tank during the early apollo missions. It’s not the ideal, but considering the circumstance and (I guess) the cost constraint, it would be an acceptable solution by interim.

risk averse? are you joking? if our society were risk averse do you think we’d be so stupid to find ourselves $15+T in debt with $100+T in unfunded liabilities?? I think the problem is most people don’t have the foggiest conception of how to consider risk in decision making.

Yes, risk averse. Where to start?? Removing playgrounds from schools for the fear of lawsuit due to injury… Sorry man, when I grew up playing hard and falling off shit was part of the program. It toughened you up. In my field, we make fun of so many managers that make the easiest decision as possible just to avoid the possibility of being wrong. You only get better by doing and learning from whatever mistakes you make. That builds true experience. Managers in so many industries are affraid to make risky decisions because somehow, there is so little room for error now. Mistakes tend to be disproportionately weighed against accomplishments. This leads to being tentative or hessitant really lead. Trust me, there’s a generation of “yes men” in senior positions that are there not because they’re more talented, but because they made the least ripples along the way.

What toxins were measured? In what concentration? With with what instrumentation?

The purpose of Congressional hearings is to humiliate the witnesses or showboat the Congessperson. How can that hot air possible help solve any problem, much less a complex health issue like this? Talk about a toxic atmosphere, that’s it.

The F-35 may be a ok bomb truck but in a dog fight the JSF won’t be able to preform in the Air Superiority role with the new PAK-50’s, SU-35’s and J-20’s coming at it, to do High G turns in a dog fight with the advanced dedicated Air Superiority fighters of it’s most probable adversaries. It’s not going to be pretty, and won’t last long, unlike the F-22 which is a true Stealth fighter ( All Aspect Stealth) the F-35 is only Stealthy from the front and with the advanced ” L Band Radars ” in the PAK-50’s & SU-35’s and their IRST systems, plus their “Thrust Vectoring” engines. The F-35 will be seen, then shot.

That is an amazing accusation. I am not willing to commit myself to it. Certainly, the pilot’s union is dealing with real symptoms resulting in frustration and fear. Since it has been years now, confidence in the committee entrusted with finding the problem and fixing it is near zero. Even the MDs on the case can’t agree on why it is happening. Maybe give it to the back benchers now? It is just possible that Donely and Schwartz are looking at a pantload of symptomatic events with no correlation to hardware malfunction, breathing gas mixture or blood chemistry, and no medical concensus on the cause of the symptoms. Everyone’s got a theory, even me, but so far I guess the measurements don’t lead anywhere except here: Park the jets permanently. It isn’t woth anyone’s career. We don’t need them and there is not enough quantity to matter. The Cold War is over. Problem solved.

Yes. He is trying to restore confidence by taking the same chances as his subordinates, and if affected by the same phenomenon it would be a weighty testimonial. Granted, it should have little effect if the pilots have their own experience.

If they knew what precautions would be effective, they would be well on the way to solving the problem.

What does that mean? Care to explain??

It’s either unknown or classified. But the concentration by itself is not relevant because whatever it is, it’s capable to jeopardize pilot’s health and the mission. 150ppm of H2S won’t put your life at risk (on the ground) but 150ppm of Chloride will kill you.

And my main point is to not be fooled by word that doesn’t say directly a word like ‘lethal’. Like the R33: Danger of cumulative effects. That mean everything except that it’s inoffensive.

Don’t forget that a measuring instrument, does not and cannot control all the molecules one by one. The best example is an oscilloscope. While it can measure electical signal at Ghz, you won’t be able to see everything on the screen. You could get a rare fault within the oscilloscope resolution and it won’t display, because of the acquisition rate. One of the option is to let the oscilloscope run during a determined period of time, which can be very long.

Back to the subject, according to the official information they don’t know what is going on. They think it is a toxin, but they don’t know.

I would argue that being optimistic is a lot different from being confident.. I would much rather Americans respond to this F-22 issue with a tone of “hey fix the problem, we do not fail. period” than, “other planes didn’t have this issue, what a waste”. It’s sadly dismissive of the evidently lost desire to continuously advance capability and push through difficulty in order to maintain superiority. The other examples you use are directly related to being responsible and accountable. Some time ago, our government, and then a lot of our society, decided that rolling up your sleeves and earning something was no different than just simply not having it. Big homes and fancy cars exploded because the fantasy of everyone should be able to have them overtook the American dream of work hard and you can earn anything. As much as some people don’t like to admit it, in life, there are winners and losers. The right to pursue happiness also gives us the right to fail in that effort. Increasingly, the politicians that get elected are so because they offer the optimism of making things easier.

there’s a lot of ugliness to them for sure. However if you look at how meaningful change has happened, you will see alot of it has happened after Congressionally mandated audits, reports, and hearings.

That is excatly what is being done. The F-35 A, F-35B and F-35C are different aircraft and are being developed to meet each individual service’s requirements

Guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The missiles have solid fuel

Issues, bugs, and fixes are a natural part of the process when pushing technology. Does anyone remember F-16 wire bundle chaffing?

then they had better prepare for more deaths and more loss of aircraft.….

We taking bets to see if the General will actually fly this plane? I’ll give 4–1 odds he wont.

Actually, the O2 bottles were replaced by oxygen generators on both the F-4J and E, the A-6E, and on late-model export versions of the A-4 Skyhawk (including the A-4AR). Oxygen generators have been used on the F-14, the F-15, the F=16, and the FA-18, all without incident. This is old, well-proven technology, and one is forced to wonder whether or not the issue isn’t psychosomatic.

Never the less, this sounds like an out gassing problem of materials used in construction or coatings not completely cured of volatiles. Need to collect samples while in operation for testing with a proper spectrometer. If they are using an on-board 02 concentrator they should start there if they haven’t already done so. Then move to the environmentals and go system by system checking independent as well as interactive operations.

In Viet Nam when I flew A4s VMA 311 we had flight ops when all the avionics wasn’t up to speed and the pilot in command could abort the mission/sortie, well 99% would fly as long as the tacan was operational. That was then and this is now. One thing we knew when the guys on the ground needed support we would be there for them no matter what.

JSF is not only the Air Force. Get a clue. Its JOINT SERVICE and its not in service as of this date so what are you talking about about No Results. You know how much just one Nuclear Aircraft Carrier with its full compliments of planes and helicopters cost? Hellloooo!

Yeah, The General’s gonna fly it. Only one airplane always, and maintained by a select crew of folks that’ll see it gets an unusually high numbers of maintenance hours per flight with the oxygen system cleaned minutely after each and every flight, and between flights also. That way he won’t die.
Let him jump in any airplane and fly it. They’re all the SAME. Stay up for a few hours and do what the little guys do. If he survives flying all the airplanes in his command., well then the plane must be good.
No scientific principles of troubleshooting for the General. Just lots of man hours on his airplane which alone he will fly.

You are on! I believe senior officers should fly more. It is good for career prospects in general and the survivors are worth having!!

And just how many Marine Osprey have killed people? Didn’t two more just die in Morocco last week?

The Air Force need‘s to go get Chuck Yeager and put him in the F-22.We need more people with ball‘s like that man has.These two that don‘t want to fly it should help them figure out what the problems are rather than being cry babies and whining.I was an MP in Vietnam in 67 and we had problems with equip„,like the M-16,but we found out you had to keep it clean and you had no problems.( you also had a AK-47 as Backup).I‘ll take that bet on the General flying the plane.He will.

F-15s don’t have the problem, never lost a fight, are a fraction of the cost and can always be retrofitted with the latest gizmos.

I believe that inthe late 50’s when the F-4 Phantom was developed it had a problem thta crashed several of them on take-off in the first couple of years. Burt Rotan was hired to ride in it and he figured out that it was a pilot procedure that needed to be modified to allow the Pilot to compensate for the planes ideosecricy(sp?)
on takeoff and that problem was solved. There are always problems that have to be worked out on new things. We see this in every area of our lives. Why not change the O2 system to what’s tried and true and then continue developing the new system until it is right. We should not rush to judgement just for expedience sake. “If it ain’t right, it’s wrong!!!”

How about cutting the ANG A-10 Wings from 6 to 3? The most effective CAS platform in the history of the world, cut to help pay for the F-22 and F-35 debacles. ~90 million/year to run anentire 18 aircraft A-10 ANG Wing, and $200+ million for a SINGLE F-22 airframe. How about no F-22’s ever deployed to combat? Just doing what you’re told to do doesn’t make it right, and the USAF also heavily lobbied for these platforms.

Anybody have any insight as to what exactly is going on in the system? Would seem to me that it just needs a dedicated group of investigators and engineer’s to determine what is going down. Hypoxia is easily measured with real time blood oxygenation probes in hospitols all the time. Fit these to pilots and see what a system is doing to them. If it’s failing to deliver O2 in certain flight phases determine what they are and start the TS process.

IT just seems someone with kick ass mentality and authority needs to run this investigation and the people and gear through the wringer to get to the bottom of this…

There’s a deep hole in Alaska where A raptor bulleted in. Theres’ a family that lost their dad and husband… We’ve got billions invested in this plane… Why isn’t this being fixed… Lockheed needs to take a rap on the knuckles… Being sorry isn’t enough, fix that system .…

Put a LOX bottle in the plane and get on with the mission!!!

To Boeing and Lockheed Martin — Shut up and just fix it! Mistakes are made, nobody’s perfect, quit worrying about being wrong on something and just get the job done.

You guys will be argueing about this all day, and still won’t get any where. Things are what they are.…thats all. The bottom line is, this bird still have problems, and will continue to have problems until they are solved, solve the problems, thats who we are, thats what we do. it’s as simple as that.

Just a thought. Are the Navy Blue Angels and the Air Force Thunderbirds going to both transition to the F-35? Can’t see them both flying the same aircraft.

How long was the F-22 in test with Lockheed and nobody noticed this problem with the life support systems, maybe the USAF should look over the Lockheed test plans to see if the current problem was tested. Seems strange that no one noticed the oxygen problem in test, maybe that would have cost Lockheed some profits for a on time delivery and let the USAF and taxpayers pay for the fix of a “tested” plane.

Not to worry. Soon, there will be no more Air Force or Army. The Navy will take over national defense. The navy is the only one that can have effective boots on the ground (Marines) and planes in the air anywhere in the world within 24 hours.

The Air Force is an expensive little group that needs to become the “REAL” military. Not Hollywood. They need to live by the same limited budget and cutbacks that the rest do. Has that ever come to pass, NOT!!

This is a point of view I have LONG held as James Gnol. The Air Force was a great commodity in World War 1 and 2 as a separate entity. (The Air Force had more people killed than the Marines in WWII, God love them.) But like anything else, evolution is always going to be there for everything as well as the military as time has shown. It is time to shed the “this is the way it has always been” attitude and make our military more efficient (and I don’t mean cut out more money, it is a killer now.) Sometimes we need to make sure that we are not remaking the wheel.

Weapons systems just get more complex and this is the result. What was wrong with the old oxygen system? And why not let Lockheed figure this out.….they built it! With production of the F-22 stopped, there are a very limited number of these airframes that cost hundreds of millions each. And the AF wants to risk these AND the pilots by continuing to fly when they haven’t figured out what’s wrong?! Unbelievable!

You are again worshipping at the altar of supposed Chinese and Russian superiority. They have, for the most part, the same old crappy engineering, production and pilots.

there are cultural problems that prevent problems from being solved, and there are cultural problems that cause people to make the same mistakes resulting in the same problems over and over again. so if you think it’s ok to just keep soldiering on and on, wasting more and more money on failed programs, as opposed to changing our culture and strategy when it comes to acquisitions, that’s fine. but there are much better approaches and methods. the answers are right in front of us and have been advocated by some individuals for years now, their voices are drowned out in the marketing spin and chaotic noise.

I can understand the AF’s comment of “risk is part of the scenario” and yes flying and combat are definately high on the risk scale and America’s best pilots accept that fact BUT what do you do if your own flying machine is slowly killing you? Isn’t it enough to have one enemy without worrying about lack of safety as another enemy just waiting for the moment to hit during flight. I’m with the whistle-blowers!!!!! I have a brother-in-law who blew a whistle on fraud and abuse in the army and they put him into a military mental institution with no defense of his actions. It was even covered in a 20–20 episode by Sam Donaldson and still there was no action. The military should not have this much power to ruin soldier’s lives in response for doing the right thing.

Good comment, consider the opposite direction, divers going to insane depths need special air. These pilots may need more than Oxygen. Outfit a system or two with sensors that capture actual samples and record the air mixture; with a mask on, it has to be a closed system. Prove or disprove the mixture as a problem. If it is just a matter of the human body being too far behind the acceleration forces that is another issue.

I know some former Air Force Aviators that transitioned to the FBI who would jump at the chance to help push a very thorough investigation wherever it leads.… Pulse Oximetry will determine O2 levels and the systems are cheap and very simple to operate… The smoking hole in Alaska was a rush to judgement to protect the AF bottom line and top brass…

I’m no expert on F-22 systems, but I do know this much: My gut feeling is that early in the program they went with an O2 Generator instead of LOX because of the risks associated with having LOX in a composite aircraft. The epoxy holding those carbon fibers together make a really efficient fuel in a LOX fire.

One more thing, spilling cryogens on a composite structure can do really bad things to the composite because of uneven thermal stresses.

Weren’t they tested before the AF took the full order, or are the upper brass getting so much in kickbacks they decided to look the other way? This is just another example of whats wrong with our country. The President has to fix the way the government operates first, that’s our biggest problem. That’s the biggest problem in the world…all the corrupt governments.

Agreed Chaostician.
I’d like to see us get back to the basics that “top dog” describes in his last 2 sentances. I think that would go a long way to keeping issues like the current F-22 hypoxia issue from ever getting as bad as it is for as long as it has.

Its time the Air Force is disbanded or give them a solely tanker/cargo mission. This branch of the service serves no other purpose. The remaining services can do what the Air Force does, better, cheaper and smarter.

But that was then and this is now. These folks are such candy-asses I can’t belive they have wings on. S/F QB

And I think it would be good for us to understand why we even attempted to acquire the F-22 in the first place, why we didn’t cancel it when the threat environment changed, and why we rather dump endless buckets of money into pushing the limits of unachievable technology, as opposed to FIXING PROBLEMS and improving upon the systems that we have today, or developing more competetive sourcing of systems, and fixed price contracting, to control costs.

What about the stealth not working, except under extreme cases?

@LLC your statement that “As for the JSF, that’s a joint service aircraft that is still in development. What the hell are you talking about with “no results” when it’s not even operational yet.” Considering that the original development contract was awarded in 1996, and that there is still no official date when the F-35 will become operational, I think you’re making Black Owl’s point for him.

@Claim Jumper, I have to agree with Cha0stician here. I don’t think that these pilots just shot their careers down in flames over a trivial defect. F-22s weren’t just expensive to build, they are expensive to maintain, and you can bet that it were discovered that F-22s aren’t mission capable some folks in high places would find their heads rolling. Even Lockheed Martin can only absorb so many fired and retired generals on their payroll. How many combat deployments has the F-22 had? How many combat missions has it flown?

Seems like having the engine air intakes about one foot from the cockpit would reduce the air pressure beyond that due to the altitude, especially with these powerful engines. A low pressure zone due to the engines could affect close ground crews too, as was reported.

Congress did you a favor and cut the funding so you didn’t have even more flying junkpiles sucking up every dollar in sight so that you can’t afford a real weapons system. Next time you see a congressman, kiss his boots and thank him for it.

Hopefully the F-22 stand downs will save enough money for someone to buy the air force a real air superiority fighter. Maybe even leave a bit of money over for the navy to buy a few ships capable of fighting it out with shore positions or flotillas of suicide bomber motorboats — both capabilities sorely missed by planners of hypothetical actions involving the Strait of Hormuz.

Well, we should act in our own best national interest, sell all our F22’s to them and develop something decent. E. g. make new F16’s or F18’s or F-20’s (presuming Northrop will still even do that kind of business with the air force) with thrust vectoring, or look back at the YF-23 and re-evaluate it.

Or how the early F-16 nav systems would get confused, decide the world was upside down and flip the airplane over shortly before landing on final approach?

That definitely gave the pilots a nice adrenaline rush!

Has the USAF ruled out infrasound induced hypoxia? If not should be investigated. Ground crew who have demonstrated hypoxis are not hooked to lung pressure suits or oxygen hoses like affected pilots. They are not hacking up Raptor sputum. Some SBIR PIs are available to help run this to ground if USAF wants to.

Maybe you’re Air Force, but the Navy TFX eventually evolved at Grumman into the F-14 (after MacNamara’s Naval F-111 failed suitability [so badly]).
Commonality mandates came from SecDEF Mac, not the services!
On the JSF, we’ll see; somehow somebody should’ve found a way to keep RADM Craig E. Steidle on the project. After years of faltering around, he was “the guy” who showed up, was given the hot potato JSF project office (bitch’n, incongruent services), and was able to marry up the services by meeting (not compromising) on their requirements if the JSF had to be single engine (which it did [for you Air Farce guys]). Don’t forget, Craig brought the F/A-18 E/F in ahead of schedule and under cost. Ever work for Steidle? If so, you’d know why he (was the only one who) could do it. When Steidle is on it, don’t bet your ass on it — bet your soul along with it with your ass!
Now on the JSF, I ‘m more confident in Lockheed managers/VPs over military officer; don’t forget that it was GD that brought you your “ahead of its time” (Hustler, F-111, and) F-16, and you know who bought GD.
You want to bitch about your Vipers, too?

That points out your Moore’s Law. Wasn’t wiring for the F-16 what was status quo for the time? Except status quo usually only partied around 6 g’s, not the F-16s’ routine 8 — 9 g’s. Prior generation I guess creep’n in to follow-on generation manufacturing. And don’t forget, like this debate here today, somebody’s puddie probably would’ve gotten whacked if some energetic engineer had the foresight to foresee the chaffing, and recommended the more expensive insulation/coating and other “mods” compared to the standard status quo.
How do you balance a prototype Ferrari costs with taxpayer funds?
Tax the 1% like we should? Like they do in the rest of the industrialized world?

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