The rise and fall of Air-Sea Battle

The rise and fall of Air-Sea Battle

Everybody’s talking about Air-Sea Battle this week, and no wonder — when two of the topmost military officers in the land take a few hours out of their day to get together and say something, they draw an audience.

And even though their subject was one of the most maddening and elusive in the defense world, people actually seemed to get it: “Air-Sea Battle” dictates that if there’s a target somewhere, commanders have to be able to dream up new ways to hit it, because the old ones may not work anymore. To do that, the Air Force and the Navy must be able to get into places and stay there for awhile, if necessary, even if the bad guy doesn’t want them there.

Simple enough. Plus, it’s kind of fun: Now, you can take the pieces from your Navy box and play with them on the same board as the ones from your Air Force box. In fact, your green Marine Corps and Army men are supposed to be able to play on the board, too. With all of them together and under your command interchangeably, no one can bar you access or deny you an area. You hope.


That, as of this week, and as close as open-source normies can know, is approximately Air-Sea Battle. So why is it called “battle?” It’s not like its antecedent, AirLand Battle, which prescribed a much more specific doctrine: How to respond to the advance of a Warsaw Pact land attack with maneuverable, integrated defenders and airstrikes deep into the enemy’s supporting forces to cut off resupply to his vanguard.

Air-Sea Battle, however, is a “focusing lens,” as we learned in last November when the Pentagon stood up its office dedicated to this “concept.” It applies anywhere; you can scale it up from your breakfast table to the Western Pacific. Here’s what one of the DoD briefers said that day:

“Anti-access/area denial is about systems, it’s about technologies and capabilities. It’s not about a specific actor.  It is not about a specific regime.  It’s about our ability to confront those systems and overcome them no matter where they are or how they’re presented.  To that end, for example, we see state actors with well-funded militaries that possess the most advanced kinds of anti-access/area-denial capabilities and technologies — in some cases, multilayered across all of the war-fighting domains.”

In other words: China. Although Air Force chief Gen. Norton Schwartz on Wednesday slapped down a request to talk about how Air-Sea Battle applies specifically to China (“that’s unhelpful,” he said) we all know that’s the origin of this whole thing. But, at least as Schwartz and Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert explained it, there was nothing terribly novel about it. The Pentagon already has buzzwords that cover the vision they laid out: “Jointness,” “interoperability;” “fusion.” One of its key precepts is already a blue flame that burns in the heart of every airman: Hold any target at risk.

So … what was the point?

Air-Sea Battle might be the biggest example of buzzword back-filling since “citizen journalism” or “active learning” — a nifty-sounding castle in the air under which someone was forced to improvise a foundation. When defense officials first started talking about Air-Sea Battle back in 2009, it was in hushed, reverential tones; this was going to be It — the greatest capital-S Strategy since containment. It was going to bring the 21st century into focus as though you’d just put on new glasses, and, oh, by the way, it was going to justify next-level hardware like you wouldn’t believe — death rays and cloaking devices and “Avengers”-style flying aircraft carriers.

Meanwhile, the unlucky staffers who were tasked with turning the phrase “Air-Sea Battle” into something more found themselves in the same position as the writing team charged by Disney with turning gummi bears into a children’s cartoon: They had to work backward from somebody else’s end product. Plus DoD wanted to signal to China that it was planning for war, even as it denied stridently it was doing so, and yield something at least partially public — as opposed to a classified campaign plan for a Taiwan Strait flare-up, for example, that DoD would never release.

When DoD officials used to talk about Air-Sea Battle, they talked about it the way they talk about the Quadrennial Defense Review: A bound, printed document that hits your desk like an oar slapping a lake. There’d be weeks or months of “study,” lots of staff chop, drafting, printing, and here’d be this final product, a doorstop called “Air-Sea Battle.” It would explain itself. The Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, bless its heart, appeared to have expected just this kind of document in its “point of departure” whitepaper from 2010. It called for Pentagon guidance that would mandate “significant changes in its program of record” and offered its own detailed suggestions for how to prepare and arm for The Big One against China.

(CSBA’s recommendations included “mitigating the missile threat to Guam and other selected bases, and to maritime forces” and “Developing and fielding directed-energy weapons.”)

But something happened. Or, rather, nothing happened. “Air-Sea Battle,” the tome, never materialized. It still hasn’t. According to November’s briefers, there may never be one. Greenert and Schwartz didn’t mention one this week. Instead we got the Air-Sea Battle Office, which is helping with “more than 200 initiatives,” as Greenert said. Hill and Building sources have said Air-Sea Battle was “finished” awhile ago, that it was “on Secretary Panetta’s desk,” yet something apparently happened and it became a non-thing.

“The secretary of defense has acknowledged the work as credible work and has given us the green light to move forward with the implementation of the Air-Sea Battle concept,” one of November’s briefers said. As we said at the time, maybe that meant Panetta was so blown away he greenlit the Air-Sea Battle TV pilot to become a full series. Or maybe he said, “I don’t understand a word you’re saying, colonel — you guys need more time on this thing because I can’t make heads or tails of it.”

Either way, if you take away  “Air-Sea Battle,” a lot of what Greenert and Schwartz said this week were things they and their predecessors have been saying for years: We have to work better together. Our platforms have to talk to each other. We can’t afford to duplicate what we buy, and we need to collaborate better on what we do. “One team, one fight.”

Meanwhile, there are no death rays or cloaking devices or flying carriers in the Future Years Defense Plan — that could be the real reason why the “Air-Sea Battle” we learned about this week is so meek and mild compared to the one we were promised. Pentagon leaders may have looked at their steady or declining budget projections and thought: Before the death ray, let’s make sure all of our ships can talk to all of our airplanes.

Join the Conversation

The “Air-Sea Battle Office.” So, in a year when everyone’s talking about cutting deep into the DoD budget, the Pentagon wants to role out a whole new bureaucratic group developing “200 initiatives.”

Let me guess, it’ll be full of flag officers, staffers, industry liaisons, computers churning out Power Point presentations, and printers pumping out paper, paper, paper…and the money it sucks in will be just that much more money that *doesn’t* get to the operating forces.

Nothing new we always integrated sea air and of course ground power into conflict look at the PTO in WW2 new fancy words makes this cool to new congressmen but the sense and idea of ground sea and air battles is NOT new.

Dead-weights on funding commitments like LCS, F-35, DDX-Zumwalt–, a fantasy $500M each long-range bomber… and a bevy of poor senior leadership. Add the refusal to see China as a threat and not bulking up Taiwan for fear of angering the communists and I think the Air-Sea Battle is DOA.

We already have a “Air Sea battle” plan in place, it’s called the Navy/Marine Corp team :-D

All kidding aside, I totally agree with Geoffery, we don’t need another bureacracy

What we need is realistic training scenarios that will weed out problems and bring to light issues that we haven’t thought of before.

My last point is that we have to be prepared for “Shock and Awe” not giving it but receiving it! I dare to say that our forces haven’t been on the receiving end of Shock and Awe since the Korean War, we have forgotten what it’s like and I’m afraid that we haven’t trained for that scenario for a couple of reasons. First, we think that we have perfect knowledge and that no one can fool us, and secondly, we underestimate potential future enemies. We haven’t had to face a near peer since the cold war and we’ve gotten fat and lazy (figuratively speaking that is).

isn’t the management structure from what i see of this air battle concept what centcom is supposed to be? or maybe centcom needs to go deeper into all the services. just a thought

You should credit the Navy and Air Force specifically for “Air-Sea Battle” instead of the Pentagon. Haven’t seen one Army or Marine General promoting it. Seems more like a strategy to secure their funding as primarily the army and to a lesser extent the Marines take it in the shorts.

The Pentagon is not adverse to spending our money but this time it’s a much smaller and specific crowd.

Whenever they talk about Air-Sea Battle it’s all about area denial operations and tactics. You wont ever hear about the stratgey part. Because the strategy is to escape from the defeats in Iraq and Afghanistan and the collapse in our influence in the middle east.

Our military is like the battalion that has been overrun and wiped out and all the surviving mad raving Col can talk about is how his dead troops need better uniforms.

You should credit the Navy and Air Force specifically for “Air-Sea Battle” instead of the Pentagon. Haven’t seen one Army or Marine General promoting it.

No because thats the whole point of Air-Sea battle — to avoid another humilliating land defeat. And for that the Army and Marines are terribly grateful.

What the hell are you rambling about this time?

When was there a “defeat” in Iraq or Afghanistan for that matter? Is your idea of “victory” our troops being in both countries for a century or so like they’re some sort of Roman Legion? Iraq will eventually stabilize but Afghanistan’s a tribal wasteland and is going to stay that way no matter how many drugged up fanatics we kill and no matter how much money we give them.

The Air Sea Battle Office did not cost new manpower…instead they refocused manpower from other offices and even closed a few down. Army, Navy and USAF manpower working together.

That’s my take as well. The USAF has received a disproportionate amount of funding since it’s inception and now that it is being curtailed they are squirming.

Ignore Itfunk — he’s loony. He rambles on about all kinds of stupid things, for example he thinks all government contractors are evil.

I think this is a repackaging / rebranding effort adding additional layers of bureaucracy & architecture on top of previous failed strategic concepts. It dumbs us down and deflects attention from actually having to make hard decisions and solve problems. I wonder how integral F-35 is to Air Sea Battle. Having a monstrous too big to fail construct makes it harder to modify or terminate a program based on emerging realities if it is integral to the construct, which makes a mockery of other governance/bureaucratic/architectual constructs such as JCIDS, DoD 5000, PPBES, Goldwater Nichols, and ad hoc task force organization that provides tailored forces for Combatant Commanders. Keep up the great reporting Philip! Too commit decades and billions to vague, one size fits all, unproven, untested hypotheses, without debate, is foolishness.

GWoods said: The “Air-Sea Battle Office.” So, in a year when everyone’s talking about cutting deep into the DoD budget, the Pentagon wants to role out a whole new bureaucratic group developing “200 initiatives.“
Let me guess, it’ll be full of flag officers, staffers, industry liaisons, computers churning out Power Point presentations, and printers pumping out paper, paper, paper…and the money it sucks in will be just that much more money that *doesn’t* get to the operating forces. — - well stated and exactly correct. There is way too much paper work, re=does, and just making changes of words in government documents for no reason at all.

The ASB concept seems like a great thing to develop and that is where it is now, developing. Finding new ways to combine the USAF and USN capabilities to acheive a better total capability is really a must. The problem is that there is no money left to fill gaps that become evident from develping the concept into a battle plan and and acquisition strategy. As the funding black hole, known as the F-35, continues to drain every penny from the DoD coffers, we will be hard pressed to field a new bomber, build up the USN fleet, update our sub fleet etc.

Some things that we may need that are not really in the near term plan right: long range survivable carrier attack aircraft (FA-XX or UCAV), a long range air dominance fighter (F-X), more attack subs, high speed long range weapons (like the arclight concept), low cost cruise missiles for internal/extenal carriage, a next generation A/A missile, a LO tanker etc.

Maybe ASB will lead us to better prioritize our DoD spending?

Electro-Magnetic rail guns can cover 600 miles.When equipped with Excalibur precision guidance the grenades can replace the fighter bombers from carriers. The carriers can be equipped with hundreds of these canons and will be powered by the nuclear reactor driving the ship as well.

Agreed… ASB is a developing concept. It goes along with the NSS to refocus on the Pacific Rim which was a cost trade strategy choice — it should cost less. South Central Asia and the ME are expensive places to conquer let alone stabilize. Even regarding the ‘refocus’ we must maintain a influence in the ME at least because of the geographic commons and resources that flow out but it will not be what we have done lately. Israel will likely continue to fill our needs, remain a balancing factor as our resources are withdrawn to ‘refocus’. Truly, there is nothing new about ASB that was not thought about during WWII in the Pacific. The actors look different but our application of power is Air and Sea dependent. The hard part of ASB in developing the concept is how to hollow out the forces without appearing hollow ; that is the strategem we must apply.

Interesting idea Theo. It does point out the huge need to us to start thinking outside the box

1 million dollar cruise missiles, 500 million dollar fighters and 700+ million dollar little crappy ship isn’t going to cut it in the future

we need cheaper, better, faster, weapons that can put major hurt on the enemy. As it stands right now, these weapon systems hurt us more then they hurt the bad guys

I’m giving you a chance to back that up with documentation, or your agreement that you are a USAF hatred who will resort to espousing myths to support your biased views http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​M​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​_​b​u​d​g​e​t​_​o​f_t

The biggest problem with the Air Sea Battle concept is that both of those forces cannot occupy land. I think these plans should be seen as something to help either the Marine Corps or Army (situational dependant) to secure a piece of land.

Modifying an Aircraft Carrier into a Battleship is probably not cost effective.

A nuclear powered cruiser could do what is necessary and would cost a lot less then an aircraft carrier that is modified into a battleship

Nice…but what if you can’t get close? In some AORs (like the Western Pacific), 600 miles is nuttin…

Excalibur http://​www​.youtube​.com/​w​a​t​c​h​?​v​=​V​-​l​j​5​Q​v​Z​YBo
In 1918, French inventor Louis Octave Fauchon-Villeplee invented an electric cannon which has a strong resemblance to the linear motor. He filed for a US patent on 1 April 1919, which was issued in July 1922 as patent no. 1,421,435 “Electric Apparatus for Propelling Projectiles“
Railguns have long existed as experimental technology. However, in recent years, they have become feasible military technology. For example, in the late 2000s, the U.S. Navy tested a railgun that accelerates a 3.2 kg (7 pound) projectile to approximately 2.4 kilometres per second (5,400 mph)

In simplest terms, “strategy” defines a desired end result (victory conditions) and the general method for achieving it. Nothing that CNO has said in public comments or that CSBA has written in its AirSea Battle document addresses the end result (of course, to have an end result you need a defined enemy but I’ll let that pass, for the moment). Thus, there is no AirSea Battle “strategy”. There is no “strategy”, period. There’s just some random tactical wishes (inter-service communication, for example — wait, wasn’t that the conclusion after Grenada?), generic needs (shoot down ballistic missiles, for example), and incredibly simplistic concepts (the CSBA rollback). It’s fine to discuss these things but they do not constitute a strategy. My concern is that the professional military leadership may not recognize the distinction.

Yes, the professional military leadership, from the 4-stars down to the O4s, recognize the difference.

Pull out a map of WestPac Theo…I don’t think you can get close enough to use an electric cannon.

Huh?? Let’s be realistic. ASB is designed primarily to counter Chinese strategy in the Pacific, and, to a lesser extent, Iranian strategy in the Persian Gulf region. In neither of those instances are we going to occupy land. At any rate, ASB is really a “kick down the door” CONOPs which would need to happen first before any ground forces really come into play.

Yes But I am speculating on a trajectory through space (above the atmosphere) with a velocity of 7.000 km per hour. It has been said that a 600 km range is feasible. Indeed, I have studied all coasts in the world and the idea is that with 20 old oil tankers equipped with these rail guns and a submarine type nuclear reactor the mass strike momentum will be reduced to hours instead of weeks or months. it will be cheap, and the coastal area ranging hundreds of kilometers inland can be wiped clean for the foots on the ground. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-57367745–52/fut

a sure sign of a declining military is turning to wwonder weapons to solve strategic failure. This is no different

People say there is no strategy but that is wrong. The strategy is to keep the money flowing and add to it — boyd

In a permissive environment, that would be fine. But, ASB is designed to counter a near-peer in a very non-permissive environment. I’m not saying a rail gun wouldn’t have uses (I’m sure the Marines/Army would love to have some on-call rail gun arty 200 miles inland), but it is not a viable option to crack the nut ASB is trying to crack. The rail gun ships would be on the bottom before they got close enough to get a shot off.

Door kicking strategies aren’t decisive. There must be a plan for what to do after the door is kicked in unless one is willing to accept a strategy that requires one to come back again and again or create a history of conflict between nations that eventually are addressed in other regions of the world or in more destructive ways.

China is not only improving their Navy and Air Force. Iran invests heavily in Hezbollah and its ground forces.

I’m not proposing we occupy China or Iran but the total exclusion of ground power in this strategy is shortsighted at best.

First, ASB is not a strategy…like I said, it’s a CONOPs/investment framework. The demonstrated ability to defeat China or Iran’s anti-access strategy would certainly be decisive for them…hopefully decisive enough to deter them from being aggressive in the first place. When I say “kick down the door” I mean having the ability to defeat the other guys’ defenses so that we can strike him at times and places of our choosing. When we can do that, it is highly unlike the Chinese will bully their neighbors or the Iranians will try to shut down the straits. But it’s getting harder and harder to say for sure we can get it done…

Huh?? That statement doesn’t really make much sense…

Let’s just say that ASB is a CONOPS for a moment and ignore that CONOPS include strategy as part of their elements.

We can defeat China and Iran now quite handily and will be able to for much of the future. We can attack at times and places of our choosing today. That doesn’t deter Iran or China in the least. The fact that doesn’t deter Iran or China at all today is quite predictive of ASB’s supposed deterrence value in the future.

Iran’s can at best shut down the straits for a short period. We are much more at risk with their ability to unleash Hezbollah and conduct conventional/unconventional ops against our interests and forces worldwide. ASB doesn’t touch that capability either.

ASB isn’t new except that it fences the Navy and Air Force budget. I’m all for maintaining our technical edge and branches working together. Putting together a “CONOPS” that singularly ignores ground power while protecting one’s budget should be called for what it is.

Strategies are swell. New secret weapons are all well and good. The problem we have with achieving decisive military victories has nothing to do with a lack of military capability and everything to do with convoluted missions, and no clear mandate. In the same way it was more or less impossible to deliver a win in Vietnam the same is essentially playing out in Stan. If we are going to let an adversary step across an imaginary line on a map that is wide open and unenforced without challenging them we will never win. Given the reality on the ground in Pakistan I’m not sure what would be needed for that win would necessarily be in our interests. That leads into how much are you looking to accomplish in Stan and pie in the sky notions about imposing 21st century progressive western secular government on an eastern nation in the dark ages. Having said all that it would be nice if the USAF and USN could actually talk to one another.

I assume, or at least I hope, that you’re right. My concern is that military leadership is not articulating a coherent strategy, at least not publicly. It may well be that valid, coherent strategies exist in-house and are simply not being publicly divulged. If so, that’s understandable, I guess.

What I’m failing to see, however, is evidence of any coherent strategy in the procurement programs. What we’re purchasing doesn’t match any reasonable strategy I can imagine. Leadership is giving absolutely no indication of having a strategy for China, Iran, N.Korea, or other potential problem areas.

General Cartwright, USMC(Ret), in his recent speech pretty much explicitly stated that we had no strategy or at least none that was being applied to procurement. If you’re interested, here’s a bit more on the topic: http://​navy​-matters​.blogspot​.com/​2​0​1​2​/​0​5​/​s​t​r​a​t​egy

Do you see evidence of a strategy even if it’s not being discussed publicly? If so, what do you see?

Thanks!

When you have a President who endorses AirSea by cutting another one billion dollars from an already depleted military budget, what you end up with is Hollow Force II.
Day #1: North Korea attacks South Korea.
Day #14: While American land, sea and air power is diverted (in a desperate struggle, wholly unprepared) to stemming the massive invasion of South Korea (and most of our munitions have been expended) China “suddenly” attacks Guam, strikes at Japanese and American naval forces and air bases, shuts down the Panama Canal with cruise missiles, and launches an invasion of Taiwan.
Entirely predictable, which is why North Korea is simply a front for what is a Chinese atomic weapons program.
End Game within 15 years.

Anyone who reads the document on AOL Defense (Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China) will quickly realize that China’s strategy is multi-faceted, along diplomatic and military lines (non-confrontational, or rather, indirectly confrontational). Hence — they have no interest in direct conflict with the USA — but they’ve already outsmarted the US on the economic and diplomatic fronts, because our political and industrial “leaders” are more interested in short-term gains than long term national security.

The key is in balancing diplomatic, economic, industrial, and military policies with a long-term strategy to retain American power on all fronts. While military power is essential, it is the USA’s economic power that has long been far more successful in maintaining the peace via diplomatic means. Protection of the USA’s intellectual capital, manufacturing base, economic well being, and education systems are key to long term national security.

And China would launch a surprise attack on its numbers 1,2 and 3 trading partners for Taiwan? Really? What for?

Well, we can agree to disagree. We ARE currently detering China and Iran…just ask Taiwan or Saudi Arabia. Our ability to strike with inpunity is waning, if not already gone. Hezbollah poses little to no strategic threat to the US, Nobody is writing off ground power…PACOM will have plenty need for that in Korea, but there’s not a lot the Army is gonna do in the South China Sea. If you know of something, please let us in on it…

Did Iran give up nukes? While Hezbollah may not be able to do physical strategic damage they can conduct 911 type attacks which would no doubt have strategic consequences.

As for China, this story is three hours old. http://​www​.thetrumpet​.com/​9​4​2​9​.​8​2​9​9​.​0​.​0​/​a​s​i​a​/​c​hin

We can agree to disagree but the facts hardly support a view that we are detering Iran and China.

If you want to limit your “CONOPS” to the South China Sea maybe it should be called that?

Yes, the facts certainly do support that US military power, in both CENTCOM and PACOM, deters the aggressive powers in the region. China would have long since taken what they wanted had the US not been there…Iran would have choked off Europe’s oil and tried to force the EU to back off of it’s impending oil embargo. As for Iran giving up thier nuclear program…you are confusing coercion with deterence.

If you don’t realize why the US can’t officially call Air Sea Battle the “CONOPs to Beat China”, then I just dunno how to explain it to you.

It’s not the “CONOPS to beat China” that I reject as much as my original point. It’s the “CONOPS to protect the Air Force and Navy budget”.

Then answer the question: What do ground forces bring to the fight in the SCS…or against Iran?

Ground forces will be involved if we want to do anything besides a punitive action. Simply put, decisiveness.

As I said before, “I’m all for maintaining our technical edge and branches working together. Putting together a “CONOPS” that singularly ignores ground power while protecting one’s budget should be called for what it is.”

“Singularly ignores” is the key component. Do some research and find out how much Army representation is in the ASB office. Answer = 0. Yet Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Kuwait and Afghanistan along with a host of other nations are in the AO.

Ask yourself why the SCS and Iran are the only threats being addressed by ASB? Has the rest of the world discovered world peace?

That’s what I thought…you can’t (or don’t want to) answer the question I asked. But that’s OK..by now, I think everyone else knows the answer.

I answered the question. Did you want the specific locations ground troops would be used? Sure, right after you identify the specific targets for the ASB “CONOPS”. It’s simply hypocritical that you want me to cite the specific employment of ground power while talking in clouds and general directions when talking ASB.

I’ve answered your question and I’ve let you get away with saying we are currently detering the Iranians and Chinese. The reader can judge what that looks like. What I’m not letting slide is the repackaging of what we already do as some new approach instead of what it really is, the latest effort to protect certain branch’s budgets.

interesting thread you two ;-D

let’s me put in my 2 cents worth

“deterrence” is as much military as it is political, without the political will behind the strategy, the military is an empty threat

I would have to say that our influence or deterrence on Iran is just about zero right now, that’s why they continue to do what they are doing-building nucs.Tthe same with China, that’s why China is flexing its muscles and claiming the entire South China sea and everything in it

It is also true that our true and our perceived military power is on the decline. We are bleeding our budget slowly to death with programs like the F-35, LCS, etc while we are shrinking the fleet, handicapping the Marines, etc

Lastly, we are totally neglecting one very important area no one talks about-logistics, i.e. supply ships/tankers. In the next major conflict we finds ourselves in our supply ships, what few there are, will be more precious than gold

Resorting to Myths? What do you expect from someone defending a service that in the current conflicts has bordered on irrelevant. The only effective aircraft it has are either 50 years old(B-52/KC-135) or on the chopping block (B-1B/A-10). Its show piece, the F-22, is too valuable to use and its future, the F-35, will be 10 years obsolete by the time one squadron is formed. The only effective USAF units in South West Asia this past decade were the contracting flights in Ballad, who kept the fresh veggies and TP500 moving out to Soldiers and Marines. As for actual operations, I haven’t met a ground pounder(79 month OIF/OEF total) who did not prefer Dutch, Norwiegen or French CAS over USAF/USN.

The USAF hate never gets old. Actually, it does.

On one hand, people complain that the F-35 will be obsolete by the time it enters service, but on the other hand the alternative most people give is operating less capable aircraft.

Yea like we did in Japan and Germany. No wait they were successes, we only compaire ourselves to losing wars now.

Two different types of wars…two vastly different end-games…apples and oranges.

Notice GE is slowly withdrawing from China because they can’t compete with Chinese companies. GE is going to focus on raw materials in Australia, something that requires cash but not much brainpower. J20 is now estimated to be operational in 2018. Our government has rewarded robber baron CEO’s. Policy must change to build strong US companies that server that national interest. The greed of the CEO does not match the national interest. We want companies that maintain a strong engineering and scientific base. Those companies that do not will fail over time. IBM comes to mind.

PolicyWonk… There remains a policy gap (and a power gap untested in recent history) between PRC’s civil leadership and PLA’s military leadership.

http://​www​.army​.mil/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​2​9​5​5​4​/​i​s​-​t​h​e​r​e​-​a​-​c​ivi

You maen we’re not???

Were they? Seems to me the state of the middle east is a pretty big leftover from WW1 and WW2 that was never properly addressed. We beat and structured the fight out of the Germans and Japanese and now neither is of much use to us in current security matters. So I’m not so sure long term that WW1 and 2 were as big a success as people always hold them up as. To say nothing of the fact they were both far more brutal than anything that followed.

Rick – Can’t argue w/political will and logistics. Note neither apply to ASB because it’s all about the money.

Blam! (“Hey! Cut it out with the facts and figures! This is my bubble, and I like it just the way it is, thank you very mu”–POP!)

I thnk you give to much credit to Iran and China. Check out this article…that’s deterrence in action. It is no coincidence this is happening when there are F22s sitting there looking at Iran and two carriers are in the Persian Gulf.
http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​1​2​/​0​5​/​2​4​/​w​o​r​l​d​/​m​i​d​d​l​e​eas

I completey agree with your point on logistics. Logistics is the 1200lb gorilla in any Pacific scenario, especailly when it comes to gas and munitons…not only getting them there and sustaining them, but protecting our logistic hubs as well (hint, hint, Army…)

Uh, you were the one that brought up Iran and China as the raison d etre for ASB? Oh, and the F22s and two carriers are not ASB “CONOPS” just good old fashioned business as usual..

BTW, don’t limit protecting hubs to what the army brings to the Pacific. Air defense, ballistic missile defense, cyber forces, forced entry assets as well as whole lot of numbers are all applicable and IGNORED by ASB. Moral of the story is “follow the money”.

I was just pointing out that IMHO the US still has a good deal of deterrence leverage over Iran…hence the reason they are now coming to the table.

I’m not sure why you think ASB ignores cyber, space, DCA, BMD defense, etc. There is a good deal of Navy/AF work going on in those areas and believe me…both services would love it if the Army could work some BMD defense magic over those airbases and log hubs.

The basic idea behind ASB is not far off from the AirLand Battle of the 80s-90s…except land is much more scarce in the Pacific. I’m not sure why you find that so hard to swallow. MRAPs just don’t float very well…

Same reason you fail to acknowledge there’s nothing new with branches working together and ABS is about protecting one’s budget.

I said ABS ignores ground power completely (nice try misdirecting), there are ZERO Army officers in the ASB Office and AirLandBattle acknowledged ALL the branches. Keeping the sea lanes open and reinforcing Europe was critical. (Note the difference e.g. ignoring one branch’s potential contributions to protect one’s budget vs. a comprehensive “CONOPS” to win decisively)

Another example of the totally parochial nature of ASB is it only discusses Navy and USAF cyber, space, BMD systems. This isn’t about working together. It’s about protecting the money.

It’s so obvious it’s becoming apparent why you don’t get it. It’s all about the money and protecting it at all costs…

ref Iran “coming to the table”, just reported they walked away from it.

Not that I’d naively attribute Iran’s insincere efforts to “negotiate” on our military deterence (the pending boycotts are a much more plausible reason if one is inclined to believe the mullahs give a crap about their people but most likely Iran’s hugely successful duping of the West like N. Korea has done for decades)

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