A bleak forecast for the Army’s industrial base

A bleak forecast for the Army’s industrial base

As you’ve read here so many times, today’s official line from the Army is: We get it.

All that stuff you need to do to successfully buy complex weapons and equipment? They’re going to do it: Control requirements. Play hardball with vendors. Test before buying — have you heard about the fantastic Network Integration Evaluation we do out west? Oh, you have.

Anyway, what else — oh yeah: Go evolutionary, not revolutionary. Don’t be afraid to pull the plug. Make “tough choices.” Say to the general: General, y’know what, sir? This is jacked up and I don’t think we should do it.


In short, the Army acquisitions we used to know were gone. Going forward, it was going to be a new ballgame, with a fresh set of test cases with which its leaders in and out of uniform were going to prove their new skills: Network modernization. The Ground Combat Vehicle. The Joint Light Tactical Vehicle. And eventually, so far down the chart you almost got to your own doodles in the margin — a new helicopter for the long-suffering aviators.

But defense commentator Loren Thompson, an industry advocate with no great love for the Army, does not buy today’s leaders’ rosy outlook about their new chapter. In a column for AOL Defense, he took direct aim at the prospects for the Army to redeem itself with its next set of high profile programs:

[W]ith the Army now extricated from one conflict and beginning to wind down its role in the second, service leaders need to give more thought to how they will modernize their fleet of combat vehicles and weapons systems. Unfortunately, there isn’t much evidence they have learned from past mistakes.

Their program to buy a next-generation troop carrier called the Ground Combat Vehicle is certain to falter, because it proposes to counter hundred-dollar IEDs with super-heavy vehicles that will cost over $10 million each. Their pricey next-generation jeep, the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, has recently suffered a near-death experience on Capitol Hill. And a plan to modernize battlefield communication networks — supposedly the service’s top modernization priority — is coming unraveled due to the meltdown of a joint radio architecture and pressure from policymakers to reprogram half the funding for the backbone of the warfighter network.

So there is reason to suspect the Army’s latest modernization initiatives won’t fare much better than earlier projects did. You’d think service leaders would draw the obvious conclusion and hedge their bets by preserving the handful of programs that are going well, but in fact they are proposing to shut down much of the Army’s remaining industrial base in order to generate money for new initiatives.

Ah yes, there it is — the other shoe dropping. Thompson is miffed at the Army’s desire to idle the manufacturing lines for its Bradley Fighting Vehicle and M1 Abrams tanks, as we’ve talked about here before. Given that we know the Army will never get this right, he argues, why not at least keep doing what it knows works now and get the maximum benefit? The risk is that it will lose its industrial base forever:

For all the Obama Administration’s talk about revitalizing the manufacturing sector and sustaining a robust defense industrial base, there just isn’t much evidence that military planners give the subject any thought. There always seem to be a dozen more pressing concerns facing Army leaders before the subject of the industrial base comes up. But after a dozen years of bad decisions and mismanagement in modernization programs, the Army has finally brought its supplier community to a point where it could atrophy quickly once spending on overseas conflicts ends. If the service can’t start thinking coherently about what it must have for the future, it may soon find itself unable to obtain much of anything in a timely or affordable fashion.

The Army brass, for its part, thinks it can bring off the stoppages without permanently losing its vendors, and save money to boot. Whatever happens, everyone will be watching.

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And thus Too Big To Fail ™ spreads to other industries.

“It’s uh wuta makes da world go-round.” –Peter Griffin
Likes a disease, systems failures spread through organizations so long as they are connected…and we are all connected.

lol buy gold…

Oh look, another imbecil who thinks we’ll magically pull an industrial base out of thin air in 20 years by doing nothing today. Some of the posts on this board scare me. To think there are people that naive that get to vote. *shudders*

And can goods & Ammunition

NIE will do fine that is a upgraded soldiers can use in all conflicts. JLTV can work BUT the prototypes need to be reworked they are TOO BIG and WIDE for conventional combat they make a HUMVEE which was too BIG look small. A scout jeep needs to be smaller maneuverable and hard to see, the JLTV are all the opposite so maybe reworking it would be better. The Author nailed the failures of GCV. As well as the even more the ICC is wasting money as the army has upgraded and buying ALOT more M-4A1s. they need to go. A new replacement for the M-1 tank would be nice since the M-1 design is over 30 years old. As well as modernization and upgrades to Army helicopter fleet would best make use of Army money.

These Army Leaders have not learned. They are still directing half efforts or less. Their focus is all spiffy Powerpoint presentations with little real content.

Developmental testing at the labs is superficial.

Yes, these generals can expect to be promoted in spite of the fact that they push overpriced and under-performing garbage out the door.

There is no accountability and we deserve what we get.

The Chinese did

On the contrary, I think some Industry should be preserved. However, our current massively inflated defense-industrial complex does not need to be nearly the size it is. It won’t hurt us for Boeing, LockMart, etc to have to downsize some. Hell, half of these corporations have assets spread over into civilian markets anyway, we do not need to “bail them out” just to preserve unsustainable jobs.

This is not about the health of our defense stockpiles, it is entirely about pork politics.

Yes because they had a massive as in more than the entire population of the US cheap workforce to do it with and basicly a free hand because they could force everyone to do something.

Whats more that industrial base still can not manufacture a decent jet engine with any consistency.

The US also loaned the chinese alot of crap and we bought their goods and about a dozen other things. And it took 30 yrs even then.….……

There is no need to replace the m1a2. Thats the beauty of the evil military industrial complex it can take one of those tanks complety disasemble it, referbish it, and rebuild it with more modern upgrades quite quickly.

The M1 is the best tank in the world still.

The GCV is a abomination BUT is the end result of the armies bradley obession. Its everything so its 52t the size of a house and cost tens of millions per unit (by the time its done it would go WAY up people).

The army needs to just build a good APC and a good light tank.

Yeah, right.

The industrial base issue is a legitimate concern in an era of declining inventory. That’s why, even though U.S. military forces will have to shrink by at least a third to help balance the budget deficit and debt, the American public will sign up to a smart fixed cost approach to maintaining key industrial capabilities if it is property articulated as a national defense capability. That means keeping an M1 production line open, but sending only ten tanks back and forth, assembling and disassembling vehicles for practice. That means deciding which production (usually private) and maintenance (usually government) faciltiies will need to be combined at operated at minimum capacity. That means building very few ships at minimum rates at high average costs, and even maybe giving them to our “allies,” just to keep engineering capabilities. The U.S. will go the same way the European have, with not enough orders to support multiple companies in each country. Time to get smart and make some long term decision for the next twenty years, when there will be no money for the military for any more of their little, but very costly, foreign adventures. This is why generals and admiral should NOT be driving the acquisition process.

Maybe we could not follow this European route of gutting our military and industry to pay for unsustainable social programs. And since when is it the military’s foreign adventures? Does it no longer belong to the rest of the country or those idiots in Washington?

The army is evaluating two examples of the Israeli Namer AFV for the GCV role. Some of the Namers are already being made in the U.S. by General Dynamics, so it would be very simple to set up production for the U.S. if they wish.

Who cares about an industrial base? The defense contractors want that free money they make off of development. When the defense contractors are happy, everyone is happy!

No development costs, passive and active defenses, US-based production line and the ability to share upgrade research with the IDF.

Of course they are a tad heavy.

The Army is too engrained with the acquisition system that currently gives the US taxpayer the lousiest bang of the buck of any western nation. While the US outspends all other nations massively on defense, there are many huge failures (Sgt York, IFV, FCS, etc.), massive cost overruns (JSF, F-22, LCS, DDX, etc), that have resulted in a culture that is all but incapable of fielding a new, and successful weapons system as part of an integrated strategy.

Does the army get it? I doubt it. But they aren’t alone: neither does the Navy, Marine Corp (to a lesser extent), Air Force, or Coast Guard. As long as they continue to fight the old wars, and continue with an acquisition system that acts more like a system of corporate welfare programs than a DoD that coordinates threat analysis, strategies to defeat, with weapons systems and personnel required to defeat those threats we will not only continue to have an inefficient military, but one that costs the taxpayers well over double what they should have to pay for the same levels of defense (or offensive capability).

Defense spending provides next to none of the wider economic benefits of those “unsustainable” social programs you’re drooling to slash away at. If you honestly think most Americans would sooner let Grandma’s “socialistic” Medicare benefit lapse before cutting into some defense contractor’s profit margin, you are seriously out of step. Let defense contractors deal with austerity measures; they can’t seem to provide the platforms and systems we need on time and on budget, but it’s civilian spending that needs gutting? You’re a joke.

You know, the same old “evil contractors/Republicans/whoever want to cut grandmas benefits and throw her off a cliff” line gets really tiring after awhile. You might want to try something new. Maintaining a strong industrial base is also very important and not just something that’s “nice to have”. Do you want us to follow the British route of gutting defense every several years in order to pay for social programs that have become too bloated and that nobody wants to trim back? Everybody should have to a part to play in these austerity measures, not just the military, which is currently taking the overwhelming majority of these cuts.

Namers are massive 60+ tons or basicly 10 tons less than a abrams main battle tank.

We dont need the namer. We dont need a GCV. We need a APC.

Remember weight is VERY important. Bridges tend to not like 50–70+ tons riding on them especially ones in the backwoods places where troops are often deployed. Add in the lessening of how much ships and planes can carry.….….….…

The nation is too broke to carry on with trying to be the world’s policeman. The other nations that have benefited from ad have little to show for it, and remember buying friends only work when it’s in the perceived interest of the “friend”. In short, the nation has for decades, spent far more than it can afford on the military. We can no longer just “print money” as was done from the far past and continues to this day. Our roads, bridges, and other “infrastructure” is falling apart at the seams. We gave away our industrial base. and even worse our technology to those that profit to our loss.
On a percentage basis, many of those classed as “rich” pay less in taxes than the average working person.
Many large corporations pay even less.
The Democrats want to “spend our way” out of the economic situation we are in, and the Republicans want to raise taxes indirectly on the working class, and have the “rich” and corporations pay less tax than they do now. “Social benefits” are to be cut, hurting those who “just scrape by” the most.

The Army is merely doing what the USAF and USN have done for many years. Propose total abandonment of a key capability (in this case, close the Abrams/Bradley production lines) and Congress in an election years will throw gobs of money at you to keep them open. Money that in a non election year would could only fantasize about. Congrats to CSA for finally figuring this out.

Yes, the funding to the welfare programs grows and grows and nobody complains and over the years the programs transitioned form worker programs, where people actually had to do something for the money, to hand out programs.

It’s also interesting that nobody ever talks about the medical industrial complex. If you want to see some really awful scams then look at how prices are set in the medical world.

Yea I get it the Chinese have lots of natural advantages. But not settling for excuses seems to be the the big one.

Typical rubbish. Half the cuts are comming from benifit programs.

But bear in mind that William C is famous for suggesting that contractors should fund itself by defrauding the American taxpayer. So his morals are somehwere between rattle snakes and dirt. So lying is typical.

Except for the fact that light APC’s have for the most part been proven unsurvivable on the modern battlefield and are death traps for the troops inside.

Weight is all nice and dandy, but when you consider that you will only need to bring one Namer (60 tons, 12 troops) that is survivable and less likely to take losses compared to a Bradley (33 tons, 6 troops) that you will need two of to equal the troop capacity and according to army commanders were completely unsurvivable on the modern battlefield:

“Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army chief of staff, told an audience at the Association of the United States Army meeting in February that the vehicle “hasn’t done very well” in terms of survivability, and that in Iraq, “we lost more Bradleys than any other combat platform — and we haven’t used a Bradley in five years.”

Not to mention less gas, simpler logistic, etc.

And on a modern battlefield with APS systems the Bradley’s TOW’s are no longer a very good offensive capability, it will need to be escorted by tanks in any case. Which means that it will have to go where the 60+ tons M1A2’s can go anyways.

There is a reason why every modern army is looking at heavy APC’s as the future.

Joe – Your analysis is faulty. “Light” APCs have been taking casualties since they were fielded. It’s not the modern battlefield that has changed as much as our sensitivity to casualties.

The Namer is a great vehicle for a country that doesn’t have to deploy them across oceans or has many rivers to contend with (e.g. Israel).

IEDs are dangerous. They are one of many weapons out there. Your fixation on them is faithful to the axiom of fighting the next war like the last one.

I’m on the fence with the GCV. An unmanned turret on a stretched Bradley may likely transport the nine man squad under armor on the battlefield. It would also be cheaper/lighter. The GCV in the end might be some sleight of hand to justify Bradley II. I just don’t see us buying it in this budget environment especially when it doesn’t get us a huge survivability bonus.

BTW, the general’s statement doesn’t include HMMWVs since they are not considered a combat platform. Using your logic the HMMWV should be scrapped and replaced with something that’s twice the weight to move troops around the battlefield. Nor does every modern Army looking at heavy APCs. Check out just about every European country looking at upgrading (Germans, Brits etc.)

The Namer is definitely not restricted to IED defense, it has more armor than most (probably any) MBT in the world and can resist/survive top attack missiles (it was designed to) along with mounting APS. Not to mention being able to shrug off AP rounds from other tanks.

And it is the modern battlefield that has changed, 2006 proved it. The U.S. has been lucky enough to mostly avoid ATGM’s up till now, but going against a future more advanced adversary and we know what the results will be.

“Using your logic the HMMWV should be scrapped and replaced with something that’s twice the weight to move troops around the battlefield.”

HMWWV = 5,200 pound curb weight
JLTV = 12,000 pound curb weight

:)

Reread my post. You aren’t getting it ref IEDs and the next war.

You’re ignoring deployability.

You’re making my point on the JLTV and fighting the next war like the last one. The Pentagon is also following the axiom. You’re in good company but it’s still wrong.

Did you look up the Puma, the CV90 and warrior upgrade program in comparison to your comment that “every modern army is looking at heavy APC’s”?

;)

I addressed deployability, as in the total-tonnage-per-soldier-transport remains the same or actually goes down (when counting logistics).

As for your listed vehicles:

Puma = 43 tonnes with armor
CV90 Mk3 = 35 tonnes (not even the APC version who’s weight I can’t find)
Warrior = 30 Tonnes for the previous to latest version (Warrior 2000), I can’t find the weight for the latest upgrade that adds a bunch of armor.

Joe the namer only carries 9 troops and im not sure if that takes into account the larger size of Americans or not.

One thing to remember is this, You cant win. Everyone said that the Merkava was safe from ied’s? Really? Nope just need a bigger ied. Plus their are armor penetrating ones.

By the end you will have a force that takes Months to get anywhere is inflexable and slow.

No you have not addressed deployability. You made up some strange tons per soldier comparison. Don’t you realize a Namer equipped Infantry force takes twice the amount of assets to deploy. (Uh, Four vehicles make up a Mech Inf platoon.) Simply put four bradleys are half the weight of four Namers.

Maybe this will help, think two C17s vs FOUR or two Ro-Ro ships vs. FOUR.

(and we’ll forget for the moment that the middle east doesn’t have a lot of bridging requirements unlike the rest of the world)

BTW, those vehicle weights are equal or closer to the Bradley (or what you misname as a “light” APC than the Namer or heavy APC). You still haven’t realized “every modern army ISN’T looking at heavy APC’s”?

“Namer is able to carry up to 12 troops (crewmen and fully equipped infantrymen) and one stretcher”

Wonderful, now they need a to make a few much larger and more complicated IED instead of many smaller ones that can be used against a larger number of vehicles and infantry.

And I am not sure where you are getting that “it takes a force months to get anywhere”…

My math:
–You have 24 soldiers / 6 soldiers per Bradley = 4 Bradleys x 33 tons = 122 tons.

–You have 24 soldiers / 12 soldiers per Namer = 2 Namers x 60 tons = 120 tons.

And I view a light-medium APC as a vehicle with the weight between 12–35 tons, above that and you are equaling MBT’s in weight.

And the bridging argument is a poor argument on the modern battlefield due to the poliferation of ATGM’s and advanced MBT’s, the Bradley’s aren’t going to survive on their own without an MBT escort; in which case they are limited to the bridging routes anyways.

P.S. — You are right that I should have said ” ‘nearly’ every modern army… ”

Ah, there’s your problem. As I said, Mech Inf platoons consist of four vehicles not two. The plan for the GCV is to have three nine-man squads, a HQ section and a hvy weapons sqd/section (javelin). The Army is finally recognizing its Mech Inf was short infantry. The reorganization with the GCV will align mech inf platoon strength with stryker and light infantry units.

As to your relative light – heavy IFV categorization, the Puma also weighs 31T and 43T with max armor protection. The Bradley w/max armor (Bradley Urban Survival Kit) weighs almost 38T. It also qualifies as a “heavy” using your standard.

Bridges and ATGMs? ATGMs do not determine where God puts rivers. You obviously haven’t been involved with moving mech forces around that battlefield. First as a Mech Inf CO I commonly had a tank platoon but I operated pure plenty of times and on other occasions had to travel by different routes because of bridge issues the tanks couldn’t cross (or even my M2A2 Bradleys). Then consider movement behind the lines staging for operations besides those in contact with the enemy.

One can’t wish away logistics issues with fuzzy new organizations nor the reality that every bridge is not rated for 60+tons.

BTW, it’s not even “nearly every modern Army” unless “nearly every” = the Israelis and us.

The first $487 billion in defense cuts over ten years merely flattens the Pentagon budget. The next sequestration $500 billion over ten years simply pulls back on the doubling of the Pentagon budget over the last ten years. DoD is 90% better off than before 9–11 and they can’t make do?

You’re right, I should have said “nearly every modern army that has engaged in asymmetrical warfare” . (damn you! :) )

Russian: BTR-T
Serbs: VIU-55
U.S. (and by extension some of its allies?): GCV
Germany: Puma

Now, I will more than respect your experience at commanding Mech Inf, where I served all infantry are considered mechanized but I never commanded them.

The M2 BUSK weight is listed at 35 tons but I’ll take your word for it. But it is entering a gray area since it was not designed to defeat modern threats the same way AFV’s coming off the drawing boards are; all the BUSK is doing it trying to bridge the gap (while adding a lot of weight doing it). Would you agree with that?

And my other question was a major though on your mind a ATGM threat such as Kornets, or modern enemy MBT’s (such as enemy T80’s, Leopard II’s, M1’s), etc? Because when I was in the (Mech) Inf those were priorities right up there with your bridges and as such obstacles such as rivers, ravines and bridges were as big as problems as nearby hills that must be secured. (I don’t want to elaborate more due to OPSEC).

The U.S. as far as I know has not come up against a massed ATGM warfare, correct me if I’m wrong.

And if you are going to realign your existing forces in order to meet an upcoming vehicle (GCV), then what would the big problem be to reorganize them to meet a vehicle like the Namer?

BUSK is no different than what the Puma is doing (and at a comparable weight).

We’ve never expected APCs to have the same armor protection as tanks nor should we. They aren’t supposed to take on tanks even though some may have a turret or AT capability. The Kornet will defeat almost every MBT on the battlefield including the Namer. Should we make something bigger? This sensitivity to IEDs and all AT systems is more a function of our hypersensitivity to casualties and prepping for the next war like we fought the last.

Massed ATGM threats like the Kornet require more of a fixed line (it isn’t an RPG) and we have a plethora of systems to deal with them starting with arty. I also don’t follow how a massed ATGM threat = tank like APCs. We trained for defeating soviet defensive positions during the Cold War and expected them in DS. Doctrine remains the same. When faced with heavy ATGMs you DISMOUNT! The Israelis relearned this lesson in the ’73 war when they threw their armor against Sagger equipped infantry without their own infantry (which rode UBER “light” 18T M113s or WWII Halftracks!).

As for the Namer I told you the problem. Twice the resources required to deploy it. That’s something the Israelis don’t have to worry about (along with very few bridges in the desert)

BTW, enemy tanks have even a worse problem than we do. Check out the javelin and how an SF tm in Iraq held off an Iraqi Tank battalion (Roughneck Nine-One). The BTR-T has not been fielded even though it was developed in ’96 and are you making the case for the serbs being a cutting edge “modern Army”? ; )

That’s the point, the Kornet would probably not defeat the Namer. The Merkava 4 in 2006 repelled hits from the Kornet, and the armor on the Namer is even stronger than the Merkava 4. When combined with a modern APS and you have a tank that can survive asymmetrical warfare. And it’s not just IED’s or ATGM’s anymore either, you also have EFP’s that can penetrate the armor of most MBT’s, make no mention of Medium APC’s.

You are absolutely right in that the way to take care of a KNOWN ATGM threat is to dismount. The problem in asymmetrical warfare (such as witnessed in 2006) is that you don’t know where the threat is located. The first warning of an ATGM threat is the missiles flying towards your APC’s and tanks.

You really aren’t connecting double the assets to deploy severly impacts getting the vehicle to the fight are you?

You aren’t getting that you can’t build APCs to withstand weapons designed to defeat MBTs? (see sentence above)

You aren’t getting that planning to fight the NEXT war like the last one is a mistake we’ve always made after a war?

Our hypersensitivity to casualties didn’t make an impact on you? (It’s as big an achilles heel than our reliance on satellites and reliance on arab oil.)

You aren’t getting that the Kornet can defeat even the Namer depending on where it hits? You can’t take one incident and generalize for all vehicles (it was reported the Kornet damaged two M1s in early OIF, should we be replacing the M1?)

The problem is that even the newest M1 Abrams main battle tank can be taken out by a measly 40lb missile. Essentially an APC is good for only small arms fire anymore as even RPG’s can take an APC out. What is needed is a revolutionary leap in armor. That and iron dome anti RPG/missile/mortar needs to be placed on all vehicles. That is the main reason for the additional weight. Anti missile/RPG/Mortar technology that the IDF invented. These systems cost $$$. If you are not going to add these anti RPG/Mortar/Missile systems to troop transports, may as well stick with what we already were using in IRAQ as they are essentially just as survivable and a heck of a lot cheaper.

Just as a general proposition, it does take time for defense companies to restructure and compete in the commercial marketplace. Not all of them will make it. When my mother got married, she had been working for an outfit called the “King Powder Company” — long time gone: reduced demand, technological progress, and competition with larger, more successful firms did them in. Black powder explosives were also used in coal mining, but safer methods prevailed. The problem is that we are not sustaining the technologies that we have, much less those we have not yet perfected.

What I found interesting about Thompson’s quotes above is that all his opinions are right and all his facts are wrong. None of his criticism of Army modernization makes any sense unless you look at what preceded GCV, JLTV, or NIE. Remember when Murtha was going around saying you could have reset of the current force, or you could build the Future Force, but not both ? Well, here’s how the Army is solving that problem — by going light, presto chango, you reduce the reset requirement to nil, and all is well.

A good light tank ? Dream on. You just don’t build an excellent light tank every day. At least not if you are the United States Army.

Sorry I couldn’t get into this thing til now…I’m not going to comment on the relative advantages or disadvantages of any potential IFV replacements, other than to point out that the Army is making this problem really ugly from the standpoint of economies of scale. By departing from a common chassis — the unit cost impacts should be self-evident. By taking heavy force brigades out of the force structure, you kick the can down the road and make the affordability problem worse. And this is all politics, every stinkin’ bit of it. Intraservice politics, interservice politics, and partisan politics. Co-producing foreign designs is the last dregs out of the barrel…but you don’t get the same economies of scale by co-production, do you ?
Good heavens — the Germans designed developed and fielded the Panther tank in two years after the superiority of the T-34 was demonstrated — on the battlefield. Is that the kind of wakeup call we need ?

There has never been a time in my recollection when we assumed that infantry fighting vehicles were invulnerable to hand-held antitank weapons. When I was on M60s, we also didn’t assume that we were invulnerable to the RPG-7, which after all was nothing but a clone of the WWII genre Panzerfaust. And that didn’t stop us from training to fight and win. And we are used to seeing ATGM missiles that at least theoretically outrange the tank main gun — but try discussing the value of FCS-style beyond-line-of-sight fires on this board and see what kind of reaction you get. If the only weapon you have to suppress long range ATGMs is a dwindling and overtaxed artillery arm — does it make any sense, any sense at all, to just pile up armor on your vehicle as opposed to giving it the long range punch our sensors and line-of-sight kinetic systems could support ? And yet we have cancelled systems like that, again and again and again for the past 20 years. The battlefield is no place for the stupid or the arrogant, living on the myths of superior American technology.

Ah, echoes of FCS… The good old days!

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