The Marines’ next Super Stallion

The Marines’ next Super Stallion

The Marines’ next heavy lift helicopter wasn’t designed to be low observable, but it sure has been a stealthy program compared to the rest of their high-profile acquisition portfolio.

In case you were wondering, Sikorsky officials tell AvWeek superstar Amy Butler that everything is proceeding apace with the CH-53K Super Stallion, which will one day become the Marine Corps’ next hulking, thundering, steam locomotive of the sky. The K looks a lot like today’s CH-53E model, but it’s a planned as a whole new helicopter, and doubling the previous helo’s carrying capability was apparently not an easy goal.

Writes Butler:


The technical hurdles in developing a new rotorcraft in the same footprint as the CH-53E it replaces, while more than doubling its load, appear to have been retired, says Col. Robert Pridgen, the Marines’ CH-53K program manager. “There is nothing in front of us that is going to slow me down,” he tells Aviation Week. He acknowledges that flight-testing discoveries are possible. One of the main challenges—developing a new split-torque gearbox—has already been overcome, and “that was no small mountain to climb,” he declares. With this design, three GE38-1B engines separately feed into the gearbox, allowing for a lighter design than the helicopter’s predecessor, says Dave Zack, Sikorsky’s CH-53K program manager.

Background, per Butler:

Sikorsky won the $3 billion CH-53K development contract in April 2006 after submitting an unsolicited proposal; the Marine Corps was looking at options to upgrade its heavy-lift fleet, [which] comprised CH-53D and E models. Technology maturation early in the program for the main rotor blades and gearbox was critical, as both were at a technology readiness level of 4 instead of 6, which is typically when the Pentagon moves forward with a design.

Sikorsky’s development contract stands out among many Pentagon aircraft deals in that it is a cost-plus, incentive-fee arrangement. This means the Pentagon pays the cost of the work rather than capping the price—a strategy adopted to accommodate the immature technology early in the program. The Pentagon estimates it will cost $25.7 billion to buy 200 CH-53Ks. The figure includes roughly $6.8 billion in growth due largely to a quantity increase; the Marines originally expected to buy 156 rotorcraft.

Cost-plus was de rigueur in the acquisitions game, but years of punishing headlines about cost and schedule problems have made fixed-price deals more popular. The Marines even changed their arrangement on this program, Butler writes, to try to speed it along and guarantee they could being fielding new aircraft close to their onetime hopes:

The first four production CH-53Ks, dubbed system demonstration test articles, will be built at the West Palm Beach facility and will be used for the Marine Corps’ operational evaluation. These articles, as well as manuals and spares, will also be needed to declare initial operational capability in 2018. The company has not yet announced where full-rate production will take place, but a new facility in Florida is being sized to handle the K.

As with all current military programs, affordability is essential. Zack says Sikorsky is exploring ways to reduce the price of both testing and production. The Marines renegotiated the Sikorsky development contract last year; it originally included an award-fee schedule. The shift to an incentive-fee plan is spurring the company to deliver as much as six months early on key milestones, an achievable task, says Zack. “We wanted to incentivize them to meet some cost targets and some schedule targets,” says Pridgen. First flight is slated for the first quarter of 2014 based on the accelerated plan.

The last new rotorcraft the Marine Corps developed — the MV-22 Osprey — did not have a smooth and simple entry into the fleet. The Army has delayed building the all-new rotorcraft it yearns for until 2030. If the Corps can start fielding a fleet of all-new Ks just a dozen years after it began the initial work, that would be quite something in the context of helo-building.

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The CH53K is an awesome bird but it’s only superior to the CH47F slightly in range (100km) and 30% more in payload (21k vs 35k pounds) but it costs more than three times as much ($129mil vs $32mil).

This is a “good deal”?

Would creating folding Chinook rotors cost that much? Seems that having two helos at half the price for 25% more payload capability would be a bigger win.

The Super Stallion is a good bird better than the Army BlackHawk in many ways. Its a good deal it can use current CH-53D and E parts and has improved performance which saves what small DoD money will be around for several years.

Hope they fly them for decades more its a good bird.

Now reengineer your Chinook to operate in a marine environment. And “oh, it’s only got a 30% higher payload”. “Only”? LOL! Oh, and make it fit in the same footprint as the CH-53. (Good luck with that.)

And one other thing: you may not have noticed but it operates off ship. So your hypothetical two CH-47s will have to fit in the spot of ONE CH-53. (God, some days I can almost feel the IQ points leaking out of my ears reading the comments on this blog.)

CH53 is also shipboard compatible, has a refueling probe, digitized for the Marine Corps, and has a cabin that fits Humvee. Since you cant make the amphibs twice the size, you cant buy twice as many of something else to double up the carry capacity. Maybe its still not worth the cost, but it does some things that 47F cant, at least under the conditions that the Marines intend to use it. I wonder how well it stacks against the MH47?

Just love it when exuberance trumps intelligence.

The Chinook has operated in a maritime environment. It has operated off of gators (heard of TF160?). It can land in the water and launch zodiacs.

With blades stowed (like when they are when transported on cargo aircraft) the Chinook has a smaller footprint than the Sea Stallion (52′ vs. 60′ “folded” length and 12.5’ vs. 28.4’ wide). So you don’t have to do higher math, you can actually place two Chinooks in the footprint of a CH53. Oh, and the rotor disk diameter is wider on a Sea Stallion (79’ vs 60’) but identical in length w/blades (99′) .

You have a point that the Sea Stallion can lift 30% more but I just showed you two can fit in the shadow of CH53 with room (especially length) to spare with a 25% increase in cumulative payload and OVER 30% less cost. Are you aware that money is a bit tight right now? BTW, consider how often one really flies at MAX load.

You need to get out more and you need a mop to clean up that intelligence you left all over the floor.

Shhhh, nobody tell him that the Sea Stallion and Blackhawk only have a common manufacturer. They are entirely different classes of helicopters. It’s like comparing a rucksack to a buttpack.

Roddy your anger and ingnoance about aviation astounds me. I was noting the two planes did simular missions and the CH-53 is a better design than a UH-60 is

Two Chinooks fit in the space of a Sea Stallion with a 25% increase in payload and 30% less in cost. There’s some more stats above in response to sferrin. Easy to find he’s the guy with the mop. :)

Come on man you can’t deny the Corps’ BIG IRON it sounds so gnarly when it flies over and sucks all the air out of your lungs, flying freight train indeed.

The UH-60 is a medium-lift helo, and the CH-53 is a heavy-lift helo. They do similar things, but were purchased with different priorities and requirements in mind. It’s like comparing a Dodge Caliber to a Dodge Caravan. Also, the Army has a heavy-lift helo: the CH-47.

Don’t know why anyone would give you a negative. I thought that was a cool response (I gave you a plus). I could feel that Sea Stallion do a fly over. :)

We can all have our favorites. I was just looking at the numbers.

The Chinook can operate in a maritime environment does not mean that it was designed to. The CH-53 has additional features to improve its operational handling on a naval ship that a CH-47 does not have like a folding tail and the ability to automatically fold the rotors back. All of this stuff adds additional weight. Also additional safety features are added to naval helicopters because they operate routinely over water where they cannot make emergency landings on land.
I am not sure about the CH-47F but the CH-53K also has a significant amount more of armor then previous designs

Strange article. You seem to be portraying the K as a successful example of weapons procurement, ignoring all of the delays and costs increases that the program has experienced.

The K’s R&D cost has ballooned by 38%, from $4.4B to $6.1B. And despite the total program buy growing from 156 aircraft to 200, the unit cost has also increased by 6%.

Then there’s the program delay. When launched, the K was supposed to achieve IOC in FY-15. Even before Sikorsky made its proposal in March to build four “production representative” Ks for opeval, IOC has already slipped by three years to FY-18, and the “production representative” (read: “risk reduction”) proposal is likely to push IOC further to the right.

God help us if the K is an example of a successful procurement program!

Yeah, those two CH-47s are going to do you a lot of good when the payload isn’t one that can be shared. What do you plan on doing, chain them together? Jesus. Maybe you could “mop up” the IQ points I left on the floor and use them yourself.

Again, explain how you’re going to meet the requirement when your max payload is too low? Saying, “oh, well how often do you need it” doesn’t change the fact that you in fact fail. Furthermore, what are the fuel consumption, manning, and maintenence requirements going to be for two aircraft vs one?

They’re probably comparing it to the F-22, F-35 and V-22.

But, this kinda confirms what I’ve been saying for a long time, the military needs new aircraft, such as a new bomber for the USAF. They talk about some hypersonic superbomber that probably will cost a bajillion dollars and probably won’t ever see service the way Congress is going. The USAF expects and plans for the B-52H to keep trucking for decades to come, to make sure we have a capability until the new plane someday materializes.

Clearly, like Sikorsky did here, it’s possible to take an existing design, modernize and redraft it, and come out with a new successful aircraft, so why not just “redesign” the B-52 with modern equipment and come out with the B-52J? (Heck, you could say the same for the space shuttle.)

ben — I mentioned the folding rotors would need to be developed (not rocket science). The Chinook doesn’t have a tail and is shorter than the CH53 even with it’s tail folded.

What additional safety features are you talking about and one can’t speak armor unless one knows what both are equipped with which is doubtfully an issue. They’re lift helos not attack birds.

Not knocking the 53 just asking the good questions we should be asking ourselves.

When you come back with a load that is over 10.5T that can’t be shared get back to me. Sounds like scrambling for an excuse to me.

You better plug that leak. You won’t be able to tie your boots at the rate your leaking intelligence.

Ah, the old, “uh, I don’t have an answer to that” excuse. Bravo.

*cough*
http://​a2​.ec​-images​.myspacecdn​.com/​i​m​a​g​e​s​0​2​/​1​3​2/c

Lance, what parts do you believe are interchangeable between the CH-53D/E and CH-53K? Sikorsky has stated that the data plate is the only common part between the two versions.

The only reason the B-52 survived this long was the invention of the cruise missile. Let’s see how many seconds it lasts trying to drop a bomb over a country with air defenses.

BRAVO! So lifting LAVs justifies spending almost four times the amount of money on a helicopter. The four LAVs on a gator always decide whether a Marine amphib assault is succesful or not and we always move our LAVs that way. What the heck are those LCACs for anyway?

Good job on finding the ONE load that can’t be shared!

“When you come back with a load that is over 10.5T that can’t be shared get back to me.”

Cry me a river. It took all of five seconds.

“Again, explain how you’re going to meet the requirement when your max payload is too low? Saying, “oh, well how often do you need it” doesn’t change the fact that you in fact fail. Furthermore, what are the fuel consumption, manning, and maintenence requirements going to be for two aircraft vs one? ”

Here it is again since you seem to be avoiding it.

I’m hardly avoiding the subject and double posting doesn’t make you twice as effective. Your obviously butthurt based on the tone you’ve brought to the discussion. None the less, I’m going to try and help you.

The ONLY point you have made in the CH53’s favor is its ability to carry LAVs into combat. I did not realize that unique ability was so critical to the Marine mission to substantiate a near four fold expenditure to buy CH53s. Who would have thought that the USMC’s magic sauce is being able to lift LAVs?

You better get that mop ready. You make a case for fuel consumption but again fail to realize/research the Chinook is markedly superior. Besides the tandem rotor system (which is more efficient) it operates two not three engines. Of course it gets better mileage (2227 vs 1034gal, if you will 38mpg vs 72mpg or 48% better).

Manning, the same.

Maintenance? The CH47 is less than $2K/flight hr. vs. the CH53 over $10k (assuming Sikorsky can cut maintenance from over $20K/hr for the previous models). So IF you can believe the Sikorsky brochures (and saving you higher math) maintaining TWO CH47s is 60% cheaper (or $6K). Much MUCH more so if Sikorsky is off which is quite likely considering the development history of the CH53K. Oh and I made a mistake in cost savings fo buying two CH47s for a CH53. It’s NOT 30% cheaper. It’s FORTY SIX (46) % cheaper. Why didn’t you correct me?

Now this is the second time you’ve let exuberance trump intelligence. “Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy where the scores can really change? … “ If so bring your mop.

Posted an answer above (where you double posted). Try not to take this so personal and do a little research before posting.

Having not actually been on an amphibious ship you might not realize that the dimensions printed in some magazine have little to do with how a particular aircraft fits in the hangar while a ship is under way.

The CH47 issue is moot in any case as the Marines operate the CH53 and CH46, not the CH47. To modify it for extended shipboard use would make it a very different aircraft and thus loose much of it’s capability. And no, the CH47 has a larger footprint than even the CH53E, no matter what your measuring tape says.

On the surface your comments are very entertaining (can’t argue the Marines aren’t going to the CH47 no matter what. The Marines had the same attitude about the M1 Garand at one time also).

I don’t know everything. Educate me. What modifications are necessary for extended shipboard use (besides folding blades)? TF160 has worked hand in hand with special ops organizations and the Navy on board ships. Besides a gray paint job (in the 80’s) there was nothing ship specific.

Oh and I have been on amphibious ships, carriers, subs and even flown in the CH53 as a grunt. The tape measures on ships looked no different than the ones on shore or are you making the case there’s a corollary to Einstien’s theory of relativity that applies to ships where things are actually smaller than on shore. :)

Majr0d I really wish I could post that image of a CH-53E airlifting a CH-47 for you to see. Sometimes you need that extra heavy lift capability. The H-53 was also quite successful in a number of other rules like mine countermeasure. It is already navalized too, which does add to the cost for a variety of reasons. Plus it has greater range.

Yes I’ve seen it. Cool picture. Then there’s the picture of a CH47 lifting a CH47. Very few helicopters can lift their own airframe. Haven’t seen a pic of the CH53 doing that… So yes extra lift capability is good especially when it comes to having to recover one’s aircraft.

Navalized is nice. No one can explain what that means though or its costs. Nor do they realize or acknowledge that we’ve operated Chinooks from gators AND carriers for extended periods. The CH47 greatest need is folding blades. Right now it takes about three hours to put the blades on after an air movement which is inadequate for amphib use. Considering the CH47 unit cost is almost four times less than the CH53, flight hour costs are at least five times less and the manning numbers are the same seems there’s PLENTY of room to address the problem (if one wanted to).

There’s little chance the Marines will consider change but it’s amazing how many here don’t know anything else besides what their services uses (or is their BFF military hardware for the non vets) then defend their branch no matter the facts. The CH53 is a great helo but once one puts the emotion and chest thumping aside the numbers indicate a different story for a branch that prides itself with doing more with less.

Greater range? Yes, 841km vs. 741km. 100km/60m or 10% more range for almost four times the cost.

CH-47 not designed to ‘live’ aboard ship. Sure it can go out there for a few days at a time, but it requires significant operator compensation to live aboard ship. Four landing gear — difficult to taxi/Blade Fold???/Components not designed to live in a salt laden environment.. You can put two Chinooks in the footprint in a CH-53? Really — show me how you do that. Moreover, the CH-53K will have much lower operating costs when it is fielded.
The reality is the CH-53K will be the preeminent heavy lift helicopter in the world, and countries will be lining up to replace their old, expensive CH-47s with the CH-53K.

Manning is the same? Really? Two CH-47 have the same manning and maintenence requirements as one CH-53K (you know to fly the things, training, spares, supply chain, etc.). You sound like Boeing marketer. And speaking of “butthurt” it’s amusing the way you start foaming at the mouth over the ability to carry the LAV. As for “why didn’t I correct you”, you assume I care what you think. You’re obviously a rabid Boeing booster who can’t deal with the fact that the CH-47 DOES NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENT and is in a huff that the USMC doesn’t seem interested in changing their requirement so your favorite helicopter matters. Too bad, so sad.

I’ve seen pics of CH-53s hauling CH-47s (mostly in Afghanistan), a CH-53 hauling a CH-53, a CH-47 lifting a CH-53, and a CH-47 hauling a XCH-62. In all cases the heavy bits (engines, transmissions) appear to have been stripped out.

Something else to keep in mind about lifting capacity and the CH-53Ks advantage over the CH-47 isn’t just so it can lift an LAV. That additional capacity allows it to do more in hot-high conditions (supposedly about triple that of the CH-53E.)

And yeah, I went off half-cocked in the other posts. I apologize for that.

Not a Chinook fan, I actually spent a lot more time in the back of a Blackhawk. Just asking the hard questions that you won’t/can’t answer but subsequently punctuated with a butthole attitude that I’ve been fighting from sinking to.

I’ve shown you factually wrong on the CH47/CH53 dimensions, fuel consumption, manning, maintenance and besides lifting the LAV, a cheaper way to get 25% more payload at a 46% cheaper price.

Being that you couldn’t refute my points I’ll borrow one of your responses…

“Ah, the old, “uh, I don’t have an answer to that” excuse. Bravo.”

That’s much more sensible but then you say something insane like… “about triple the high-hot capability”! Yeah, if you compare a Vietnam era CH47 vs. the CH47F model. The F model was just happened to be improved to work in those exact conditions and has been doing so in Afghanistan. No. 30% possible and again you forget the tandem rotors are more efficient.

Let’s add honest to cordial in the debate dep’t

While it’s good that I’m entertaining, you’re missing the point due to your own arrogance. But I’ll point you in a direction that, with some thought, will possibly clarify things about carrier and amphibious ships and their aircraft handling capabilities.

Why are the CH46 and CH47 different from each other? Like the the theory of relativity itself, it must have something to do with not having anything that too closely resembled anything the Army has, right?

No arrogance. I actually admitted I didn’t know everything and asked for your help understanding.

You’ra actually the guy saying measurements are different on shore than they are on a ship. Now THAT’S arrogance.

No, that “triple the hot and high capability” is the CH-53K compared to the CH-53E, as I said. Not any variant of the CH-47. Sikorsky has that right in their brochure (yeah, I know but as far as I know it’s part of the requirement they’re on the hook to meet.)

A few days at a time? The British have operated CH47s at sea for extended periods (are you saying the brits can do something the Marines can’t) and the Aussies are getting ready with their Canberra class ships.

I really need to “show” you that two CH47s without blades can fit in the footprint of a CH53? Where the dimensions I gave wrong?

Four wheeled landing gear are difficult to Taxi? That’s just funny.

The CH53 is going to have cheaper operating costs “after” it gets fielded. WHERE did you find that? I posted what Sikorsky is saying. YOU know better?

C’mon, get a grip and quit making excuses.

I’ll give you the CH47 is not as navalized as the CH53. That said it’s not going to melt if saltwater hits it. Needs folding blades for one (which have been developed by a company called Ingenium http://​www​.ingenium​.com/​s​e​r​v​i​c​e​s​/​d​e​s​i​g​n​/​d​e​t​a​i​ls/?… ) The Chinook is in fact significantly “marinized”, with anti-corrosion coatings in all areas that would be exposed to salt water during amphibious (swimming) operations. Interestingly, the Chinook is rated to land and operate in the water at up to sea-state 3. CH-47 engines and other driveline components on the upper fuselage were not specifically treated for fresh or salt-water exposure and so fresh water rinsing would be required…much like the Australian Army Air Corps does with their CH-47D’s that operate at stations near their coasts. (Thanks Good2Golf for the input)

Does the Ch47 need work? Sure. At almost four times les the unit cost and 5 times less the operating cost there’s plenty of room to fix and STILL be cheaper. Just saying it can’t be done out of hand is arrogant, stubborn and/or lazy. Heard of the Blackhawk? There’s a navy version called the Seahawk and nearly a dozen variants. It can be done.

ROGER, majr0d.…. No Doubt This Is Why We Both Retired Brig.Gen .… Now … The DoD Is Cutting 30% Out Of The F-35 Budget, Doing Away With The Naval Variant, Decresing The Number MCAS Will Reveive. A Greatful Nation Salutes You Sir, For Your Service .…… <”()))))><

The folding rotors I agree with are not rocket science but they are a weight issue that land based helicopters do not have. Also a more subtle difference is in the engines. The engines on naval helicopters are meant to deal with salt water. Even when the engines are of the same design as a land based helicopter, the engine will in the end cost more for the naval helicopter then the land based helicopter.
It was realized in the beginning of the CH-53K program that CH-53’s were operating routinely in environments where there was hostile fire, because of this a significant amount of armor was added to both protect the crew and passengers.

Are you implying that the addition of folding blades will make the CH47 too heavy too fly or impact performance? Doesn’t seem to be the case for the SH60, the Huey or the Cobra.

Agree on your engine point but again I’d point to the Huey, Cobra and SH60 precedents.

As for cost, I’ve pointed out buying two CH47s is still 46% cheaper. Even adding a million bucks per engine would still be a huge savings.

What makes you thing the CH47 isn’t armored or the CH53 is “better” armored? Deagel rates both the Ch53K and CH47F a five in armor protection. CH47s have had additional armor since 2001. Troop area armor is being installed in the CH 47F (google COOLS) now and will be in place before the CH53K hits the fleet.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I would like to enter this thread saying Happy Memorial Day.

Again, its interesting to see another “Why do USMC/Navy do things different?” thread.

To truly understand this particular topic, we need input from a wide variety of people more than likely not here: Pilots that fly the helos, ship’s designers, and airmen.

Will a 47 in spot 1 interfere with a 47/aircraft in spot2/3? Can a flight deck full of 53s liftoff faster/safer than a flight deck full of 47s? Flying heavy lift over many miles of ocean, a third engine is a good backup? Elevator usage. Maintainence. Supply. Handling.

I also believe that the Navy/USMC heavily researched this with trial/error. There is a reason we don’t navalize everything.

We all know something, and that’s numbers don’t mean crap.

Here are the “numbers.”

After looking abit (glanced, its a FM), I see a minimum of 105ft in length for spots on the flight deck.

From what I see, a chinook has 99ft of length rotortip to rotortip vs a 53 that has 88ft.

It is safe to say, it maybe a safety issue as IDK if pilots are comfortable with 12ft of clearance.

Urls for review: http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​l​i​b​r​a​r​y​/po
http://​www​.boeing​.com/​r​o​t​o​r​c​r​a​f​t​/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​c​h​4​7​d/c
http://​www​.the​-blueprints​.com/​b​l​u​e​p​r​i​n​t​s​-​d​e​p​o​t​/he

Agree it would be good to have comments from those folks that know BOTH aircraft. I’ve been correcting misperceptions this whole thread.

Your source on the CH53 is not a ” K” model, it’s a “D”. There’s a difference.

Only when they don’t go your way :)

I still doubt they would change the rotor length.

When you need to lift 35K, 21K capacity won’t do. Like most things, the more you wring out of it, the more it costs. A look at similar problems with work vehicles, aircraft, rail, and non-transportation systems reveals the same. Even stereos can provide a good example. Compare the cost of a 100 Watt RMS per channel amp with less than .1% THD and the cost of a 300W, 500W and 1000W amp with the same quality requirements. The cost goes up by more than a simple ‘per cubic inch’ formula.

You’re guessing wrong…

The blades are new composite blades but the length is the same as the “E” model. Thalt makes the overall length of the “K” 99.08 ft from tip of the main rotor to tip of the tail roto rhttp://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=863.

Here’s a link to global security that clearly shows your mistake. The “D” was smaller than the “E” which the “K” is following.
http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​s​y​s​t​e​m​s​/ai

Either way, I am guessing the specs I posted earlier are the reasons that they originally went with the 53.

That and the third engine.

Looking @ some internet pages, it seems the Navy/USMC went against the SecDef, took the prototypes for comparision, and somehow convinced Congress the 47 was too big.

Too big? LOL its 8 ft shorter than the CH53 when the 53’s tail is folded even more when it’s not! It’s getting quite old explaining to people with little to zero knowledge of the CH47 that it doesn’t have a tail.

Nav/Marines should go for it on the new CH-53K Super Stallion.….……instead of the Ch-47F.….lol.……majrod must have stock on this. And do not get it confused with a black hawk..completely different airframes and it is a light lift. The AF got stuck with some Black Hawks and got them converted to HH-60’s Pave Hawk with air refueling capabilities and additions on CSAR equipment because the Army had bought so much of them and then some. And we could not get the medium lift helicopters and this what i heard the same Army personnel friends with a politicians that oppose the AF on the medium lift also the Army is trying to get the AF mission on CSAR.……Pave Hawks are ok for the missions but the AF wanted medium lifts for there CSAR ..just a little bigger. The AF still have the UH-1N and wanted an upgrade but heard more Army personnel complaining to get the black hawks that they have in storage instead of getting new UH-1N’s.….to help save on the budget…lol…There getting there new secrete package in 2030 of elite helicopters.

“The AF got stuck…“
“We could not get the medium lift helos…“
“this what i heard the same Army personnel friends with a politicians…“
“heard more Army personnel complaining to get the black hawks…”

FUNNY!!!! They got unicorns and sugarplum fairies too in this world you live in?

I’d like to ask you to document ONE of these allegations but it would probably take days for you tome out from underneath that drug induced haze. GOOD Stuff!

I was on the ground floor for the CH-53E roll out and assigned to the first squadron — WHAT A FUC___ NIGHTMARE !! They can say anything they want, this beast will be a night mare for some time. Really, how often will it use ‘max’ lift ???, not all that often.…the ‘E’ sure wasn’t used that much…This thing will be a maintenance nightmare to no end.…MSgt

LOL…must of struck a nerve…hahahah.…..was taught by the older elite in the AF and was the last to go. The newer or younger generation probably have no clues on what mention so i will leave it at that. And true the Army wants to take over the AF mission.

Agreed.….Flew CH-53E’s and HH-60Gs.….Marines are great…but this whole notion of Littoral combat or ship to shore with Heavy Lift is so WWII.…..Unsurviable.…outdated mission.…and at the cost of a small country to buy and fly.….what is the point of the range and Air refueling.…on-board ship the probes come off.…no tankers anyway to speak of…so no use in buying 200 of those tractor trailers.…Meanwhile the USAF flies less than 100 H-60G[s.…many with over or near 10,000 hours…and can’t get any love replacing them…and they actually deploy all the time.….It is nuts.. (the marines need $26B for unuseful Heavy lift truck never to be used…the USAF needs $11B and can’t get much of anything

Nah, I’m not bothered. I’m entertained. You’re a funny guy!

It would be nice if the USAF could replace its Pavehawks but the powers that be decided on other priorities. That’s why they are buying old Marine Hueys and rebuilding them. On the bright side the Air Force can say they are dong more with less and use hand me down Marine equipment.

*Sigh.….* SMH.

I have a pic of a Navy E hauling an older A out of the water. It’s pretty sweet.

I did not imply that the addition of folding blades will make it to heavy to fly but it does impact performance and what it can carry if it did not have it.

Doesn’t seem to have impacted the Huey, Cobra or SH60.

Our military is useless. We are totally UNPROTECTED!
It took over a half hour for those towers to fall.
Where were you?
You can’t respond to the biggest building in the biggest city in the world in less than a half hour?
FAIL!!!!!!

Every person should have been rescued from those towers and the fire should have been out. Ever hear of a hose? Think you can connect it to city water? You obviously know what a helicopter is. You just don’t know what the fuck to DO with them. So why should we buy you more copters if you are too stupid to use them responsibly? DIE! Fuck the troops.

Good point but I believe the CH47F is very slow, compared to the potential CH53K…

F.U.C.K. The Troops.

I am officially calling for the public execution of ALL military personnel who were active on September 11, 2001. Every last lazy scumsucker who sat on theri hands while civilians roasted and suffocated and went flying.

You had one job. To guard the lives of the american people. YOU FAILED. Goodnight, assholes.

Adam , you are a moron… Asshole.

Surely you Jest! When has the Corps gotten anything the air force could not? There is a reason the phrase “Marine Corps Improvisation” was coined.

There’s more common parts. The airframe hasn’t changed much.. If anything, the electronics are the upgrades.. The rotorheads may be different, but it’s the avonics that’s the main change.. Lifting capibilities probally aren’t too much different..

Nope, they both do 170 knots (196 mph, 315 km/h).

The CH-53E is the most under rated Helicopter, there is not a helicopter out there that can compete with it, it can even out fly a Apache. Everyone thinks the the CH47 Chinook is a better helicopter, faster and can lift more then the 53 that is not true and 53 out lifts a 47 and can carry more pay load and troops then 47 can and is even faster. I was a Crew Chief on the 53 A,D and E models for 8 years and I have crewed Black Hawks and Chinooks when in the Army and it’s the best Helicopter that I have ever flown and worked on. It’s the largest Helicopter in the free world only second to the Russians big ass helicopter but still can out preform that one to. Many people do not know that a CH-53 did a full over the top loop and there are not many helicopters that can do that, there is about 3 that have tried it and the ones that did outside the 53 where all much smaller helicopters. It’s by far the best cargo helicopter in the military and the world and the true work horse for the marine Corps. With the new 53K coming out is going to make the V-22 look useless like it is now and my opinion the 53E is a much better aircraft then the V-22 the only thing that it can’t do is fly as fast but out side that is can preform a whole lot more then the V-22 can that was the biggest mistake and the biggest waste of money that the government spend on a big peace of crap that many good Marines gave their life’s on and they want to talk about spending to much for the new 53K which like the 53A,D and E models that have been flying since Vietnam and is proven aircraft unlike the V-22 it;s really a no brainier. You are not going to find an aircraft that is kept up maintenance wise and easier to work on outside the Black Hawk which is a Sikorsky aircraft to, probably the two best helicopters in the military. For all those people out there that think a 47 or V-22 are a better aircraft does not k now what they are talking about. I am glad to see the Marine Corps getting the new 53K, Sikorsky makes the best helicopters in the world not just being a crew member on 53’s and H-60’s I also worked at Sikorsky on the Black Hawk and 53. Many countries fly some version of a 53. No doubt hands down the best helicopter in our military and in the world.

Nope, check the next to last paragraph…
http://​defensetech​.org/​2​0​1​2​/​0​4​/​2​4​/​3​0​-​m​o​r​e​-​y​e​a​r​s-o

To get more life out of their UH1Ns they are buying used Marine ones… Things are a changing…

Steve — Who’s saying the CH47 is a better helo one on one with the 53? Not here! Lifts less no doubt. The 47 though is almost four times cheaper to buy, five times cheaper to maintain, its fuselage is smaller, gets better mileage etc. One just can’t wish away the CH47 when you can purchase two, lift 25% more than a CH53 and save over 45%. That’s “significant” especially for those that pride themselves for “doing more with less”..

As for being underated, the CH47 takes that title in this threead at least. Look how many inaccuracies that’ve been corrected and as for speed you need to check your facts. The 53K and 47F are tied.

You have your opinion ref the V-22 but it’s a different mission.

Oh, many countries do fly the 53, six exactly. 20 countries fly the 47 and that 53 that rolled over, had to be totalled. Not saying the CH53 is a bad Helo. It’s not. It’s legendary but there’s an awful lot of folks that don’t know anything about the CH47.

No, it’s not really a good deal for USA. It’s great for; bankers, bird makers, dod procurment and some active duty folks. If it made great sense, they would not be perusing this option.

majrod…you make a good salesman…lol…“Steve — Who’s saying the CH47 is a better helo one on one with the 53? “…“It’s not. It’s legendary but there’s an awful lot of folks that don’t know anything about the CH47. “.…your good with artillery but you will not persuade some of these Flight engineers or crew chiefs who’s been doing this for 20 and 30+ years. True a lot of countries had bought these CH-47 compare to H-53’s but look how many Ch-47 crashes go on verse the H-53…just one that you mention and true there are some you cannot rebuild or repair due to there extent of damage on all types of helicopters. Try selling Naval Ships or B-52’s or will this come later after you get every branch of service to buy into the CH-47. What is actually needed is the DOD to do there job and figure out best suited for each branch with there own highly qualified air crew that would decide what is best for there branch or interact with the others if they like. For the V-22 the speed is great but the HH-53,HH3,CH-47 carries more personnel…it does not really have a mission..they did not use them for medivac while deployed to the desert.

Maybe we could trade you for that awesome chow and sub-standard berthing allowance?

I have flown on both a 47/46 and 53 platform as a crew member. From a defensive platform the 46/47 design has a great range of fire for guns, but I always felt the 53 offereed a better mission platform for Marines. It looks like the large fuel cells on the outside are gone. This looks more like a 53d model spruced up.

Mark, HMH464 New River? We may have crossed paths

I was with HMH-461 when they created HMH-464. Went back to the civilian world in November of 81.

You’ve never seen what a five-hundred-mile square of blank radar looks like. The B52 can do it. You can’t make it go faster, though– but then, versus the B1B and the B2, it still shines. You must remember that such “redesign with modern equipment” — also modern wings, tail, fuselage… has already been done for the 52 several times now. And cruise missiles are what everyone uses– it beats the daylights out of having 50% of your force shot down by 25 cheap-a__ fighters from Sukhoi. Check the history of the 8th AF. Until the P51 became a “long range” fighter, the big bombers were losing 1/3 their number on a single mission. In any case, what’s the substitute? Another $2 billion development project that comes up with 50% of what you need (F22), a project that may not even finish (F35), or a project which took 20 years to actually deliver?

so who knows what the downwash on this will be

I worked on the Dinosaurs out in HI and those things were pigs. They were great det birds and we flew the crap out of them, I can’t say the same for the E people though. I saw them work their butts off.

EPIC!! lol

Downwash. 135 kts on a CH 53D, Much too much for the Gemini pick up. Hypothermia for the seals that were to hook the capsule to the pick up strap. As SgtMajor of HMH 463 when the first A, D’s appeared in the sky over MCAS (H) Tustin in 1966 I had the experience of being there when the first Pilots went through the transition to the then new bird.. A’s and D’s could do a few things that the E’s can not but I flew in one at 200 MPH and flew as a crew member with the prototype pilots who wrung them out at Patty River. Spent a lot of time above I Corps in them and still think they were great.. It seems a shame that all 53 A’s and D’s were finally retired this year. I would liked to have seen Yankee Hotel 12 again.

Rich — just selling some truth and common sense.

BTW, of course there have been more CH47 accidents. Over three times the number of countries use them and God knows how many more CH47s have been built compared to CH53s.

I was 463 flightline from 98–02. I left a lot of blood and sweat on those beautiful beasts, and they left a lot of fuel and oil on me!

The engines and transmissions are totally different on a Kilo. The airframe is much bigger too. About the only thing that’s probably common are the seats, tire assemblies and the consumable hardware. There’s really nothing that you can take from a Delta and put on an Echo to begin with, other than what I’ve already stated either so I dont know where you’re hearing this commonality stuff from.

I worked on the “D“s as well. We affectionately nick named them shitters for obvious reasons. But they were USMC work horses not commercial passenger helicopters. They did require a lot of maintenance, but they weren’t that hard to work on. They perfomed great under adverse conditions and were intimidating as hell. I can’t speak for the “K”, but it’s “D” predecessor will always be one of the greatest of all time IMHO. And, yes, I know I’m predjudice.

So you are saying such a prototype trial never existed?

No, can’t you read? I said the Chinook’s fuselage is smaller. Knowing your record and the above corrections I’ve had to make to your inaccurate musings I doubt the Congress was convinced the C47 was too big and I doubt you’ll ever find a reference to confirm your speculation. Prove me wrong and your right “somehow convinced Congress the 47 was too big.”

MCAS (H) Tustin was actually MCAS (H) Santa Ana in 1966 when I flew with HMH-462. Not sure when it became Tustin but it always known at the LTA (lighter than air) because of the huge blimp hangers.

Correction on the year, in 1968 it was still Santa Ana (not Tustin). Sorry about that!

F.U.C.K. the useless troops. Get a job.

Are you carrier qual? Entering a battle of wits w/an unarmed ARES is futile.

Its all about increased payload, range, aircraft survive-ability, and being more maintenance friendly. With the advent of going back to a “dry” rotor head similar to the “D” and H-60, maintenance hours alone will decrease significantly. The engines, gearboxes, and blades are all new. Test bench max on the one of the engines yielded 8000 shaft hp. Granted they will be limited once on the airframe, but they will have considerable power over the 416A and the 419 which are being upgraded on wing currently. Sikorsky already has the swept, anhedral tip design on the S-92 and will be incorporating it with the Kilo. Echo guy here and while I agree that it will be a nightmare once it hits the fleet mostly due to fly by wire technology, what aircraft did not have issues after procurement? Look at how long the V-22 program took to get off the ground. Even now, that aircraft faces issues and is continuing to find its spot among assault platforms. I think Sikorsky has it right though and once its here, the K will be a true heavy lift beast. I hope to crew one before I leave our beloved Corps.

In 1972 I transferd to to K-Bay and HMH 463. where I took over as crew chief of YH-12 At that time we were the “Pineapple” squadron with those painted on our noses. Crewed it off and on until 75 when we went out on “Frequent Wind” and “Eagle Pull” on the “Hancock”.…..Don’t ask me the BuNo cause I don’t remember it was a D model though.…..Had LtCol Walter Ledbetter and also LtCol Fix as 2 of our CO’s Both made Col.… well deserved

Ecd…is the 8ooo SHP limited due to MGB input and what is 416A-419? Do not know the Marine lingo.Did not know that the new 53’s Rotor Heads were still wet, cant imaging how much the rotor would sling grease…lol.. but that’s cool back to a dry head. The 60’s were like you mention was pretty good, did not have to worry about uniform or flight suits getting greasy…lol…My Bro was a Marine 65–67 assign to1st wing 1st platoon and was in Nam. He was a grunt but rotated half the time he was there as a T.G. on the H-53’s. Took him to tell me this prior to his death last year from agent orange (cancer). I told him when i had return from Thailand at the end of Nam 74–75 also flew in H-53’s at night as a T.G. with naval size battleship NVG’s that was killing my neck at the end of flights from doing “NRS” missions (night reconnaissance surveillance”) alias Not Rather Safe…lol…
Retired AF 38yrs 5 H airframes

Chinooks have a limited internal cargo capacity, I bring this up because while I served in a joint command in the 90’s certain SOC forces were being asked to work together to perform a mission. The vehicles that one unit used was to wide to fit in the Chinook while two could fit in the 53. The 53 could also hold two of the other units vehicles. I know it would be cheaper in this one instance to replace the vehicles so they could fit the 47, but this is only intended to point out one example that they are not the same for a reason. Earlier there was a comment about taxing with 4 wheels verses 3, and you can turn a much tighter circle with tricycle road wheels. You may be able to put two chinooks in the same space as a 53, but you would need a crane or a forklift to do it. You can’t draw on paper the footprints and say look they fit, because you have to be able to practically put them in that space, and you can’t. I am not aware of naval forces anywhere using CH47s, I am however quite familiar with the CH46 being used. The 46 or Sea Knight is a medium lift helo that is significantly smaller than the 47. I am not going to pretend to know any technical specs about the two birds as my time in the Corps was spent with a radio on my back and a rifle in my hands, but I do know that there are pros and cons for each and that I personally would rather know that a Sea Stallion was on its way to pull me out of a hot LZ than a Chinook.

Fuel cells are modular for most any aircraft, expert!

Grammar…where did that go with all the “experts”?

I raced a 47 with a 53E, it topped at 160 straight and level, I hit 170 (yes my red line is 150). The book and reality are not always the same. The 53E beats the 47 is lift and speed. The idea is to improve things… otherwise we’d just by more CH-53E’s and call it a day.

if it’s all about price, then lets just buy a buttload of Jet Rangers, for the cost per pound of lift, they beat everything talked about here.

Of course I bet you have a reason why that won’t work… and all those reasons can also be placed to the 47 agains the 53K.

This is simply too expensive. $100,000,000 per helicopter? A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS EACH!?!? If $100M is not too much, then why not 500 million, why not a billion each? Why not?

There is no doubt that this would be a very capable aircraft, it is simply too expensive to consider. Give the Marines something less and they will make it work.

Cool helicopter, but we just can’t afford it. The scary part is that this is the “affordable” solution. (And yes, the Emperor IS naked.)

And the fuel bladders that are currently planned do not provide the same crash safety protection that the military has enjoyed since the introduction of crashworthy fuel system protection. All done to save weight by engineers who are more interested in selling helicopters.

I was a little sad to hear they finally retired the Deltas, but all good things must come to an end I guess. I know the Kilos are going to be awesome and I cant wait to see and hear them roaring by.

Nice HYPE on “THE NEW BIRD” nothing beats the CH-46 NAM era BIRD.

btw, what took the corps so long to get on board with no cost overruns. DUH !!!!!

Does your employer give you cost overruns ????

It is pretty nice to see the Marine Corps getting almost all of the equipment it needs especially in the rotorcraft area. I think the Marine Corps has gotten every new/improved helicopter that it has asked for unlike the other services.
Personally, I think the 53K represents the best improvement of them all because of the amount of armor they put into it.
Also, a belated Happy Memorial Day to all.

Gentlemen, it’s all about doing it right. As a former Echo driver and 8 inch self propelled “howie humper”, I once asked a CH-47D driver about a cute little picture of a CH-47D carrying a M-198 exteranal. Nice piece of propaganda? He mentioned that if the airplane took off with a full bag of gas, went once around the pattern, came back in over the load, picked up the load, took it once around the pattern, dropped the load, the aircraft could go around the pattern once more before needing to be re-fueled. Marine Corps needs more range than that. We’ve sort of outgrown the conventional range of the littorals. The increased payload and range of the CH-53K and the VM-22 are game changers, as the MAGTF will no longer be restricted to 200NM from the beach. These days we’re putting bad guys on notice that we’re building the MAGTF the capability to reach out and touch anyone within 1,000 NM of the beach. As for refueling probes coming off to stove the aircraft aboard ship, they do but they also come back on. As for tankers the Marine Corps owns a fleet of C-130 aircraft that are more than up to the challenge. Two such aircraft have been assigned to each MEU going out for some time. Put it all together and it simply doesn’t get any better than that. For those who still need a picture… get a world map, break out a large crayola and start marking up all of the continents 1,000 NM from the shore line, 10,000 feet and blow. Then ask do we really need to go into any of those spaces that remain uncolored? Game changer.

Indeed, $100million$. It’s all on you good taxpayer.…or better yet, on your grandchildren.
United Technologies Korporation thanks you..in spades.

But, it’s the price of freedom! you say!
It is not. It is the price of Empire. It is the price of the military-industrial complex which General Eisenhower warned us of. At one hundred MILLION $$$ EACH, you bet it is.

HMH-462 Heavy Hauler / 1980–1984

Phrogs Phorever!

No, but I can read. Like you said, a battle of wits.

Snarky is a great refuge for those with excuses who can’t explain their positions.

Congrats, so in your case the book is right for the CH53 but not the CH47. Uh, yeah…

BTW, on paper the CH53K is better than the CH53E. Oh right, the book is only right when it talks about the CH53.

Gus, nice story. Again, another anecdote (that can’t be confirmed) that contradicts all the data.

The CH53K increases the range 100km over the CH53E. So the Marines aren’t limited to 200NM. Didn’t realize that 100Km was a gamechanger. Never mind. That totally supports buying a helo that costs almost four times as much vs another where you can buy two save 46% and carry 25% more.

BTW, was talking about the CH47F model.

When the last 60 goes to the boneyard, the crew will fly home on a Huey!

Actually I do, will a “buttload” fit in the same footprint?

Interesting concept. Why don’t you put up a case like I did?

Note, it’s a reason, not an excuse. Many fans of the CH53 have been making them and it’s been quite vehement. After a while you’d think folks would start thinking and saying “Hmmmm, I didn’t think of that”. Reasoning doesn’t seem to be a strength among some CH53 fans.

I have seen the video of the top loop. Rumor is that 53 never flew again, impressive still. The V-22 is a killer, crew killer. The 53 and Huey are workhorses!

Recon — Thanks for the respectful tone. The number of wheels doesn’t determine the turning circle. Lengthwise distance between the wheels does.

Crane or forklift necessary to park aircraft next to each other? C’mon, that’s a little extreme. I bet the skids on Hueys and Cobras are a pain also. :)

ONE special ops units chose MH53s because their could fit two vehicles inside? What vehicles are you talking about? Do the conventional Marines own them. Why does TF160 use MH47’s exclusively? It may be nice to get vehicles inside but it’s quicker to have them slingloaded on an LZ (I know you know that). Even if you were right. Doesn’t make the case for the whole fleet. BTW, EVERY helo has a limited internal capacity.

As for, “I am not aware of naval forces anywhere using CH47s” try the UK, Australia (Canberra Class amphib ships) and Spain (Juan Carlos class ships).

After the Army has added force protection & other upgrades the CH47F has a high, hot (4000ft, 90 deg) external payload of 14,300# for 30nm, not 21K. Hardly the 25K at 110 nm of the CH53K. Ask anyone who has dealt with defining reqmts for the JLTV

Ohhhh you’re just asking to get stacked!!

I worked on 53D BuNos that were flying in Nam, and that was in 2001.

Really? You know I was impressed then I said to myself “This thread is FULL of misconceptions of CH53 capabilities (faster, more fuel efficient, smaller etc.), let me check that”

The Ch47F can lift 16K in high/hot http://​www​.fas​.org/​m​a​n​/​d​o​d​-​1​0​1​/​s​y​s​/​l​a​n​d​/​w​s​h​2​0​1​2/5

The CH53K can do 25K for 110NM at five HUNDRED AGL! http://​www​.sikorsky​.com/​S​t​a​t​i​c​F​i​l​e​s​/​S​i​k​o​r​s​k​y​/​A​sse

Want to be sure we aren’t comparing apples and oranges. Oh, and I made a mistake, max payload on the CH47 is 25K not 21K. So You can but two Ch47s have SEVENTY PERCENT increase in payload (35/50) and save over 45% unit cost and maintain TWO helicopters for more than half the cost per flying hour of ONE CH53.

Gus:

Thanks for your input and your service. I disagree, however, that these are a “Game Changer”. The game was already changed. There is nowhere on your map that cannot be reached already by the 82nd Airborne’s ready brigade. There is no limitation to using Paratroopers that does not apply equally to helicopter borne Marines; and the further you move inland the less useful the seaborne component. (And I can vouch for the fact that M198s airdrop just fine.) While the new Stallions may help the Marines, that’s not the same as helping the nation.

I don’t see any non-political reason why the USMC should not be limited to 20km from shore (or at least one that does not come down to “The Marines are better than the Army. Pffft.”)

Terrorists might be scary but the greatest threat to our nation is the fact that we are broke. Broke Broke Broke

Cheers!

John

HerkCO:

This is not the price of freedom… if we were an “Empire” then gas would be cheap and we would have battalions of Iraqis and Koreans fighting drug lords in Mexico.

This is the price of bloat. If you wanted to, you could probably get these for $10-20M instead of $100M. Remove government legislators from the acquisition process, instill some actual discipline in the process, waive all FAR regulation, enable open competition and watch the costs plummet.

Cheers!

John

If you do some digging in the orange county times archives around 1990 you’ll find a story about a CH-53 hauling another CH-53. and yes there is an accompaning photo. They closed the highway for the fly over as a safety percaution. both helicopters were based out of the then MCAS Tustin. NO WAY IN HELL could a 47 do that! additionally there was a system of modular fuel cells that went in the interior of the 53 to act as a forward refuelig tanker for various scenarios for vehicles/aircraft(harrier). not to mention it makes a better gunship and personnel carrier than the 47.

Yes Happy Memorial Day but you never answered my question when you said the CH53 was better armored. How much armor did they put in it? How is it better than the COOLS loading/armor system being installed in CH47Fs?

The operational characteristics of the H-53’s assigned to the 21st SOS and 40th ARRS were major determinants of the way in which the Mayaguez-Koh Tang operation was planned. Their flight and maintenance characteristics played a key role in determining the outcome—or rather in establishing the range of possible outcomes—for the battle hinged on a number of highly improbable events. If there was a single, unavoidable, critical path in planning and execution, it was the capabilities and limitations of the CH– and HH-53’s that transported the American Marines to their objectives and got them back. Several factors combined to make that path as critical as it was, not all of them readily quantifiable.

The first of these was the small number of H-53’s available, a straightforward numerical consideration. The second factor was maintainability and in-commission rates; of those available, how many could be brought into commission when they were needed, how quickly, and with what degree of assurance. Although less readily quantifiable than the first factor, this, too, can be addressed in numerical terms. Here we are concerned with the qualitative factors involved in keeping the H-53 in safe flying condition. The third factor was the basic performance parameters that determined what the aircraft could do operationally, parameters that owed much to the H-53’s Marine Corps origins. We have addressed these in gross quantitative terms, but there is more to operational effectiveness than speed, payload, range, and the tradeoffs among them. Some key factors, like maneuverability, are not readily quantified—not least of all because they are dependent upon aircrew skill, motivation, and knowledge. Many of the critical determinants of aircraft performance affecting combat effectiveness are heavily dependent on human factors and shade off into the subjective. It is those we are primarily concerned with here. What was the H-53 like to fly? What was it like to maintain? How much confidence did the crews have in it?

I do not pretend that my assessment of the H-53 as procured, maintained, and operated by the U.S. Air Force during the Southeast Asia conflict is definitive and unbiased. What I have to say here reflects my reaction to the machine as a pilot. As such, it is based on personal opinion. But what I have to say also reflects the information available to the men who flew in the Mayaguez-Koh Tang operation. There are matters on which honest men can differ, and I have tried to point these out. One point should be made clear up front: I am not concerned with the H-53 as procured, maintained, and flown by the Navy and Marine Corps. The Air Force H-53 was a very different kettle of fish.

The H-53 entered the Air Force inventory through a peculiar chain of circumstances that left an indelible imprint on the aircraft. Designed by Sikorsky Aircraft Company in response to a March 1961 Marine Corps request for proposal, the H-53 was a progressive development of the earlier piston-engined HR2S.1 The HR2S originated from the findings of a 1946 Marine Corps requirements board that called for a helicopter with a five-thousand-pound payload to support amphibious assault operations. By the standards of the day, the payload requirement was enormous—in 1946 most helicopters could carry little more than a pilot and passenger—and the H-53’s exceptional performance was a direct result of that far-sighted requirement.

By specifying their operational needs ambitiously but in general terms, the Marines got a superior machine. There is, I believe, a lesson here, for the track record of U.S. military aircraft designed through tightly defined specifications rigorously justified by cost-benefit effectiveness has been less than sterling.

Plus you have some redundancy. I one unit fails you still have the other one.

What good is a ’47 without blades? Apples to oranges! Have you ever operated aboard ship for extended periods of time?

Article says it was an unsolicited proposal from Sikorsky. This is not true. This was a sole source procurement that was approved by OSD(ATL).

Ah, that explains a lot. No competition or comparison. I’m understanding how the decision was made. Thanks for sharing.

From my last post: “Either way, I am guessing the specs I posted earlier are the reasons that they ORIGINALLY went with the 53.

That and the third engine.

Looking @ some internet pages, it seems the Navy/USMC went against the SecDef, took the prototypes for comparision, and somehow convinced Congress the 47 was too big”

Wikipedia: “In 1970, against pressure by the US Defense Secretary to take the Boeing Vertol XCH-62 being developed for the Army, the Navy and Marines were able to show the Army’s helicopter was too large to operate on landing ships and were allowed to pursue their helicopter.”

The older Huey’s and Cobra’s did not have folding blade systems from what i have seen.

From what I have read below the CH-53K will have significantly more armor then the CH-47 with COOLS. COOLS is just floor armoring. The CH-53K will have Integrated Seat and Wing Armor, Cabin Floor and Wall Armor. I do believe the CH-47F already has armor for cockpit but I have not heard of it having any armor for the walls or cabin seats.
Also, since the armor is being designed into the helicopter it is not an additional expense. Nothing like buying a set of seats and stuff and then just putting another set of seats and stuff in.
Please provide sources, I want to read more on it.
InRe to the armor http://​www​.asdnews​.com/​n​e​w​s​-​1​9​2​8​6​/​B​A​E​_​t​o​_​D​e​v​e​l​op_http://​www​.army​.mil/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​6​6​2​1​3​/​C​h​i​n​o​o​k​_​m​a​r​k​s_5
InRE to the CH-53K in general http://​www​.aviationtoday​.com/​r​w​/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​h​e​a​v​y​lif

You do realize you said the CH47 right?

Now I’ll repeat myself. “Knowing your record and the above corrections I’ve had to make to your inaccurate musings I doubt the Congress was convinced the C47 was too big and I doubt you’ll ever find a reference to confirm your speculation.”

The older skids had two blades, no need for a fold system.

Sorry, I thought you would understand I was giving credit to an issue that needs to be addressed (and I’ve repeatedly stated), folding blades. I’m a former Army infantryman. Why are you attacking me personally instead of addressing the problem? Run out of ammo?

You’re missing the very simple point. Adding a folding blade system isn’t a big deal. It’s been done for the Huey, Cobra and SH60 with no significant impact on performance.

The CH47 can also set up a FARP (transport fuel blivets setting up refuel points). That’s how the Army conducted one of the largest/longest Air Assaults in history (101st in Desert Storm).

The CH47 and CH53 are rated for the same number of troops, (55) though the Brits crammed 81 paratroopers into a CH47 for an air assault during the Falklands War (2 June ’82).

Finally the CH47 was actually served as a gunship. Google ACH47 or “Guns a Go Go”.

It all depends on what type of head they would use to do it. Elastomeric “dry” heads are smaller, lighter and less complex.

Payload is much more than just what the aircraft can actually pick up under ideal conditions, which are the numbers used to make the above argument that the CH-53K is not a “good deal”. These numbers mean very little, however, in determining the aircraft’s ability to perform the mission profiles it is being designed for. The CH-53K is designed to support Ship to Objective Maneuver (STOM). Which is associated with specific ambient conditions, and ranges required to infill and sustain a future Marine Expeditionary Bridage (MEB) with all of its associated personnel and equipment. Under that mission profile the CH-53K will be able to carry 27,000 lbs, and the CH-47 only 17,000 LBS which equates to nearly a 59% increase. When you measure this increase across subsequent waves of a single Air Tasking Order (ATO) cycle, there is no other heavy lift platform (in production or on paper) that can match that throughput and support the critical logistical requirements of the Marine Corps future war-fighting concepts, while still maintaining the capability to fit aboard an amphibious ship. A “good deal” ? I would say definitely!

And the 4 blade skids are using more powerful engines than the 2 blade ones.

Understand your point but you aren’t getting mine. Your replacing one for one which is not what I’ve suggested. Even using your payload numbers (which I don’t know how/where you got, especially the CH47), two CH47s would still provide a 15% increase, save over 45% in cost alone and drive the maintenance costs per hour down 60%.

May I explain how a government procurement really works? One of the services, lets say the Marines for example, decides they need a new aircraft. They figure out how much they can get authorized and go to congress and get that amount approved. For grins lets say they get 5 billion approved. They then write the detailed specs to send to contractors. Based on the specs, the bidding contractors figure the cost to be 6–7 billion. This is over what was allocated, so the government alters the specs so the bids come in at the amount approved. A contractor is selected and they begin the development. Over the several years of development, the government adds back most of the specs they altered to get on budget. Low and behold, somehow the costs gets back to the cost based on the specs (6–7 billion) and the contractor takes the hit for “cost overruns”.

After reading 1/2 the posts, it seems as if most are trying to turn this into an either / or , 53K vs 47F validation debate. They are (will be) two different overlapping classes of lift capability and potential mission sets for different services — services which will SOON be much more jointly operated and overlapped. That flexibility is a good thing. There’s no reason therefore why the pro 47F guys should feel threatened as nothing can touch the 47 in the 47 class! Two different birds there though, for two services, each being justified and each with limits or drawbacks.

I would opine however that the 53K would not be as efficient as an Army 47 in probably 80% of the missions, give or take.

But in reality, the Marines would not require many of definitely expensive 53k platforms anyway with a force structure slated for and likely to see continued reductions over the next 10–20 years… so look at the 53K as more likely a strategic role and specialty role when employed by a strategic USMC force element (an element which can be step up a further notch, with the 53K, in rare cases as indeed game-changing… even if only seldom required in such a high-end game-changing role). Still a nice future capability (extra strategic capacity) to have though — for a reduced-sized and elite capability force element. Something to keep a potential foe up at night wondering which greatly expanded and flexible lift capacity could be employed too ;)

Doing it all over again re: USMC procurement though, as arm-chair general like the rest of us here… I’d have to actually favor a mix of new H-60 (multi-mission, in lieu of UH-1N/Y which in turn could be sold off to bolster allies), a ‘cheap’ new CH-47 variant (in lieu of MV-22, the savings which could have bought said H-60 and most modern upgraded flight equipment fleet-wide) and the 53k for Strategic Heavy lift capacity to replace 53D/E at about a 2-for-3 ratio.. The CV-22, already being expensive, could have still be procured for US SOCOM which could be jointly operated by all-branch aircrews.

Mars — What would make you think anyone here thinks the 47 is threatened? It’s a 53 acquisition program.

“Eliteness” (assuming you buy the premise the USMC is elite, that’s another subject) as a justification for spending almost four times as much isn’t rational but emotional thinking.

Your “do it all over again” position is interesting but I stil don’t understand the justification for the heavy lift except if it’s for a load that can’t be split like the LAV which seffrin offered. Obviously that one family of vehicles aren’t the “magic sauce” to the Corps mission/success.

Mars — What would make you think anyone here thinks the 47 is threatened?…LOL on the comment twist on 47’s, just a few commentators feel threaten, its the 53’s here in question .….I agree with you 100% on your comment..

One Rotor vs Dual Rotors.….. instead of one rotor set to fail, you have two. That is two times the risk from four times the moving parts. And instead of one rotor disc area that could catch cannon shells or RPGs, you have two ; a much bigger, easier target.

But the main thing is that a single rotor can suffer serious damage to its rotors and still land somewhat safely, even with its greatly diminished lift. If one of your two rotor sets on a dual rotor gets seriously damaged, you get asymmetrical lift, and you tilt and slew in the direction of the rotor with less lift.

Helicopters obviously have zero lift when the rotor plane is perpendicular to the ground instead of parallel to it. When you start to slew and tilt to one side, as the rotor discs start to get tilted more and more sideways in relation to the ground, you lose more and more lift on all the rotors. Gravity pulls you towards the side of the rotor disc that is tilted closest to the ground, which puts you into and accelerating sideways and downward slip with rapidly diminishing lift, and you crash.

There is another way to get asymmetrical lift and go down. Ridgelines frequently have a very strong updraft up their face. When hovering along a ridgeline or cliff face, it would be quite possible for the rotors on one side to be in the strong updraft, but not the others. That could flip up the side of the craft that is in the updraft, tilt it sideways and cause a crash.

That is the big vulnerability of dual rotor craft; you have to maintain symmetrical lift and a pretty level plane at low altitude and low speed. Get seriously tilted for whatever reason, and you are fvcked. I assume the flight computer would be programed to sense and attempt to correct such conditions, perhaps by adjusting pitch on the appropriate rotor sets to keep the craft on an even keel. But with a very strong updraft or a seriously damaged rotor, it would not be able to compensate enough or quickly enough to prevent disaster in some situations.

Delete first paragraph: Should read One Rotor vs Dual Rotors.….. instead of one rotor set to fail, you have two. That is two times the risk from two times the moving parts. And instead of one rotor disc area that could catch cannon shells or RPGs, you have two ; a much bigger, easier target.

What no one on hear seems to be talking about that needs to be address is reliablilty. The Army tried for decades to sh*tcan the CH/MH-47 because its not worth a sh*t in reliability. The boeing helo has had more “maturation? problems than any other aircraft ever built. The drive train is a total piece of crap and the aircraft has to be worked on 200 hours for every hour of flight time. The engines are great but thats all that is good about it. The chinook should be thrown out and replaced by the much more relaible CH/MH-53 series. The stallion/super stallion will out work the chinook all day long and is way more reliable even thought it has those crappy GE power plants. I have worked on both aircraft for years and I would not own a ch*thook because myu life depends on it..but I would take a CH-53A even over any sh*thook

Oh and one more thing, the CH-53K may be rated for 27000 lbs but I have personally witnessed the CH-53E lift a flightworthy F-15E that weighed 51,500 lbs dead weight and carry it from the southern tip of Fla to pensacola and since the 53E has less caps than the K model, I would estimate the 53K at being able to in real time lift closer to 65,000 lbs underslung which would rip the CH-47 fuselage in two.

You can’t be more wrong. As I’ve said already the maintenance costs per hour are starkly different CH47F $2k/hr, CH53K 10k/hr (est. as Sikorsky claims they will cut the $20k/hr cost of the CH53E since the K isn’t fielded yet). You’re clearly making stuff up.

Still struggling for excuses? The CH46 has tandem rotors (uh not to mention the Osprey). No problem. The CH53 has a vulnerable tail rotor and a larger main rotor (with over twice as many blades). There’s just no evidence to support your claim especially when the previous CH53s had a wet rotor head that requires mountains more maintenance.

The fact is both the 47 and 53 are extremely reliable and safe helicopters. They wouldn’y have been in service since “61 and ’64 respectively (yep, the Chinook has been in service longer).

Come back with some reliable references.

Fair point about Eliteness, I should have re-worded that. Marines in the future (restructured and downsized) will still remain a strategic element even as a perceived ‘quick reaction’, aggressive, kick-the-doors-down’ deterrence and capability. So USMC is more strategic in that role, not elite.

As far as requiring a strategic high-end lift capability along with extra range and speed, even if it means high-cost… the procurement cost is perfectly doable, if USMC is willing to accept fewer units procured (just as the F-35 is going to see far reduced procurement due to high-cost). But the additional strategic lift capacity can be useful in rare situations where it would become a game-changing capability. And game-changing, even in a rare case, is justified even with high cost. It opens up possibilities not yet conceived for slung loads and mission parameters not yet considered as well as future capacity for new internal load applications which could be impossible to haul with other platforms. Add your claim that the K will cost 4x as much as a future specialized Marine CH-47 variant is not credible, especially when taking in LCC (crew and fuel costs over 20 years, comparing 2 CH-47 vs 1 CH-53K).

In future natural disaster relief eg, there could also be roles for such a heavy-lift capacity too, that could be a very strategic capability which one could not put a price-tag on.

I say if Marines can afford the MV-22 Program (with all the R&D) and can afford the F-35B Program… then no problem affording perhaps 100x CH-53k as a strategic heavy lift capacity.

Extra range and speed? Speed? 170mi EACH! CH53 841km, CH47F 741km. 100km/60mi Difference! At almost four times the cost! C’mon!!!

Don’t make the mistake of a 1 for 1 replacement. I’m talking 2 for 1 which STILL gets a 46% reduction in unit cost , 60% reduction in per hour maintenance costs, a 30% cumulative increase in lift capability (50k vs 35k) and a better fuel consumption at the cost of100km/60mi. (CH53 2227 vs CH47 1034gal EACH, if you will 2.64gal/km vs 1.39gal/km). Again, these are the numbers for TWO Chinooks against ONE CH53K. YES!!! Still saving around 50% or more in unit cost and maintenance per hour! BTW it’s an advantage (and tactical common sense) to split loads across two A/C than put all your eggs in one.

That is some real savings and increased capability TODAY at the cost of some yet to be defined or thought of “game changing” capability somewhere if ever down the road at HALF the cost. Heck, think about it. The Marines could but 200 CH47Fs and STILL have the money to buy 100 CH53Ks.

Was the first line chief for HMH-464 (RT)… hope that brings a smile to some of you.….and I still love the A, D and E. not sure what Mark was referring to as a nightmare.….

Its pointless to argue #s w/majrod b/c the #s are pointless w/out the context of its intended role.

The only #s that count are the 1s pointed out by 53Pilot. The criteria for the role intended for the 53K is clearly spelled out.

What good is having 200 CH47Fs if they can’t come close to performing the mission.

If the mission calls for 12 Heavies to perform at x-level you don’t solve the problem by adding 20 Helos that can’t perform, you only compounded it.

Arguing w/him about the margins of how the 53 is better misses the point b/c it argues picking helo then designing the mission around it. But thats not it, the helo was built to perform in the missions envelope.

To understand that he would have to view it thru the mission it needs to perform. So arguing w/him is Missing the Forest for the Trees.

That was a very elegant walk through the forest of obfuscation.

Nothing against the 53 pilot whose a great source for ONE SIDE of the argument. Why the fear of analyzing the decision? Afraid of an answer?

What kind of mission calls for 12 heavies and how often do TWELVE CH53s get deployed into the same operational locale? You are talking in generalities as to the requirements of some imaginary mission. Instead of making up fantastical unrealistic scenarios how about realistic comparisons? Oh no, can’t do that because you can’t write your own facts.

We’ve debated before and your enthusiasm never trumped hard facts there either.

I say the Corps should get some Dragons.… yes fire breathing Dragons. Seriously though I was a grunt in the Marines for 9 years. I personaly liked the 53’s better than the 46’s. It was nice being able to load on either side of the 46’s but I have much more exciting rides on the 53’s. I think the cost of these new birds is high but Im not a flyboy so I do not understand all the bells and whistles. As long as it doesnt drop from the sky Im good. As far as the V-22 Osprey I never and would never ride on one of those. I was at Lejeune when one crashed out the side gate back in 1999/2000 I can’t quite remember. The base General supposedly flew with his family on one to show they were safe after that. Not for me…

OK, I see how you’re getting your flawed data. Cost wise, your comparisons are inaccurate as you’re apparently using 2008 procurement cost estimates for CH-47F and not taking into account a would-be USMC required and specially adapted CH-47F model being procured say around FY14. That bird could easily be $65m.

Then, take into account LCC costs over 20–25 years including operational, crew and maintenance.

No doubt the ‘cumulative’ lifting capability of 2x 47F would be greater than 1x 53K, but that’s not a valid or rational argument given the context is procuring a strategic based heavy lift capability for a single platform.

And you lost me on your proposal for USMC to replace 150 +/- CH-53D/E with 200x CH47 + 100 CH53K?? Huh? I’d personally advocate something in the neighborhood of flat 100x 53K to recapitalize the Heavy-lift requirement.

If USMC wants to save money though and replace future MV-22 procurement with a Marine CH-47 model, then I’d be all for that and support you there as a prudent strategy shift.

Mars – thanks for keeping the discussion professional. We can potentially both learn something. Yes, I used 2008 costs. 2012 costs are about 15% cheaper $26.4mil http://​www​.bga​-aeroweb​.com/​D​e​f​e​n​s​e​/​C​H​-​4​7​-​C​h​i​n​ook.… . 2010 costs were $25.4mil http://​www​.chinook​-helicopter​.com/​h​i​s​t​o​r​y​/​C​H​-​4​7F_… I figured I’d worst case it.

Without justification I have to reject the cost of a navalized CH47 at $65mil? That’s over a doubling of cost! The SH60 which is much more capable than the average Blackhawk with additions like FLIR, marine coatings (the CH47 is already halfway done), stronger engines and additional capabilities to support CSAR & ASW ops but is only 25% more expensive. I haven’t researched what the different costs of early Army vs. Marine Cobras or Hueys were but I highly doubt they doubled in cost. Your SWAG is WAY off brother. BTW, even doubling the cost of a Navy CH47 you get more capability.

My previous #‘s example was to showcase savings not make the case for a mix of CH47 and CH53 aircraft. I’m also not buying your increased LCC costs with zero analysis. The Chinook is five times cheaper to operate per hour. That’s a fact. The CH53E requires over 40 man hours of maintenance per flight hour. Still looking for a valid reference but if Chinooks are four times cheaper per maintenance hour it’s a safe bet to estimate they are under 10 hours to maintain (they are actually less but I have to confirm before I speak) so in effect you could work the same maintenance crew hours that current CH53 crews work and maintain TWO CH47s with less effort/cost and the same number of men.

The only additional demand is the extra crew. Saving almost $50mil on each CH53 not procured and $6k for every flight hour provides PLENTY of cushion for five new crewman even assuming they serve 20 years and retire on 50% pensions.

Oh, I also reject the “strategic” buzzword. What’s “strategic” about a helicopter? How is it strategically based when they are spread across the fleet ready for the occasional hot spot? No, the CH53 is no more a “strategic” weapon than any other weapon system but it sure sounds good when trying to justify a four fold increase in expenditure. Just like “game changer”.

@ m-r

We’ve debated before & you’ve been trumped. But thats not the point, its not a knock to you but the argument.

Its not generalities but the performance specs the USMC required of a Heavy when it layed out STOM & Expeditionary Maneuver From The Sea. Amphibious Assault is the most complex modern military maneuver not the USMC’s only mission, but the one it uses as its requirements baseline.

What does it take to maintain Continuous Operation of a Marine Expeditionary Brigade-MAGTF across 200miles Launched fr/a Sea Base, which itself is spread over 100s of miles at sea Maneuvering Forces?

Constrained by space on ship the requirements of the next Marine H-Lifter were born fr/that. Not the size of the individual helo but the overall size of the Lift Package needed to move that force.

So how many more 47s would it take to fill the unique Operational Lift Role the 53K was Designed to fill. 12 53Ks to 20 47s, 10 to 17/18, 20 to 30? Each additional bird is more fuel, more pilots, more maintainers, Less Space.

Also, Marine Expeditionary Units routinely deploy w/up to 12 or more CH-53s & the MEU’s Long Range/Deep Helo Raid often uses all 12 53s.

You want to look at it thru whatever lens suites you instead of looking at it thru the specific Lift requirements the Marine’s have set & the Operational Role they designed their H-L to play, which Sikorsky built the 53K to fill.

53Pilot1 previously posted:

Payload is much more than just what the aircraft can actually pick up under ideal conditions, which are the numbers used to make the above argument that the CH-53K is not a “good deal”. These numbers mean very little, however, in determining the aircraft’s ability to perform the mission profiles it is being designed for. The CH-53K is designed to support Ship to Objective Maneuver (STOM). Which is associated with specific ambient conditions, and ranges required to infill and sustain a future Marine Expeditionary Bridage (MEB) with all of its associated personnel and equipment. Under that mission profile the CH-53K will be able to carry 27,000 lbs, and the CH-47 only 17,000 LBS which equates to nearly a 59% increase. When you measure this increase across subsequent waves of a single Air Tasking Order (ATO) cycle, there is no other heavy lift platform (in production or on paper) that can match that throughput and support the critical logistical requirements of the Marine Corps future war-fighting concepts, while still maintaining the capability to fit aboard an amphibious ship. A “good deal” ? I would say definitely!

@ m-r

We’ve debated before & you’ve been trumped. But thats not the point, its not a knock to you but the argument.

Its not generalities but the performance specs the USMC required of a Heavy when it layed out STOM & Expeditionary Maneuver From The Sea. Amphibious Assault is the most complex modern military maneuver not the USMC’s only mission, but the one it uses as its requirements baseline.

What does it take to maintain Continuous Operation of a Marine Expeditionary Brigade-MAGTF across 200miles Launched fr/a Sea Base, which itself is spread over 100s of miles at sea Maneuvering Forces?

Constrained by space on ship the requirements of the next Marine H-Lifter were born fr/that. Not the size of the individual helo but the overall size of the Lift Package needed to move that force.

So how many more 47s would it take to fill the unique Operational Lift Role the 53K was Designed to fill. 12 53Ks to 20 47s, 10 to 17/18, 20 to 30? Each additional bird is more fuel, more pilots, more maintainers, Less Space.

Also, Marine Expeditionary Units routinely deploy w/up to 12 or more CH-53s & the MEU’s Long Range/Deep Helo Raid often uses all 12 53s.

You want to look at it thru whatever lens suites you instead of looking at it thru the specific Lift requirements the Marine’s have set & the Operational Role they designed their H-L to play, which Sikorsky built the 53K to fill.

Eric:
How do you arrive at this being a “good deal” when you have not addressed how much it costs? These are $128 million dollars each. I think that this is, on it’s face, way too much to pay for a cargo helicopter.

If you do not think that $128M is too much to pay, would $250M be too much? $500M?

There is no doubt that this is an awesome helicopter and any unit that gets one will have much more capability. But does that mean that it is automatically a good deal for the US? (BTW, we are broke.)

Cheers

John

You’ve never trumped me. Remember, you’re the guy saying the 101st got stuffed at Al Nasiriyah and needded the Marines help (101st wasn’t there), then you changed it to Najaf problem is the Marines weren’t there, then that Al Nasiriyah was an Army objective when it was always a Marine objective and had been planned for over two months, then that the 3rd ID tried to save the 507th Maint Co and got kicked out but the fact was the 3rd ID was 130 miles north. You are living in an alternate reality where losing is winning and you imagine yourself a Marine having never worn a uniform. Get off the meds and get a grip.
http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​2​/​0​3​/​0​6​/​u​s​m​c​-​3​-​s​t​a​r​-​par

Back on subject. MEU’s can be task organized but they typically consist of 12 CH46s NOT CH53s. (Uh, there’s a difference) http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​M​a​r​i​n​e​_​E​x​p​e​d​i​t​i​o​n​ary.… Excellent example of why you’ve never trumped me. You can’t even get your facts straight.

Oh and two Ch47s use the same amount of fuel as ONE CH53 yet carry more 30% more (granted for a whopping 60 miles less). At least you can say one thing about your inaccuracy, you’re consistent.

BTW, double posting doesn’t help your case. You just double how much you’re wrong.

And as I replied to 53pilot…

“Understand your point but you aren’t getting mine. Your replacing one for one which is not what I’ve suggested. Even using your payload numbers (which I don’t know how/where you got, especially the CH47), two CH47s would still provide a 15% increase, save over 45% in cost alone and drive the maintenance costs per hour down 60%.”

Sure I got the name of the Army unit wrong doesnt change the fact the Marines were not assigned the city of Nasiriyah their mission was to secure 2 bridges for bypass.

The Army’s 507th (Army Pvt Jessica Lynch’s Unit) took a wrong turn into the city & was ambushed. The Marines were then requested to takedown the city to retrieve the survivors of the ambush.

(A quick google search will prove that lie rod)

On the MEU subject in the years before the MV-22 was fully intergrated but after the CH-46s were being mothballed several MEU’s deployed w/all 53s.

Darn, you really can’t help being wrong.

“Marines were not assigned the city of Nasiriyah their mission was to secure 2 bridges for bypass.”
Check http://​www​.tecom​.usmc​.mil/​H​D​/​P​D​F​_​F​i​l​e​s​/​P​u​b​s​/​O​I​F/A… TF Tarawa planned to take Nasiriyah 6 Feb p.6 (that’s 2 MONTHS before the 23 Mar Nasiriyah battle started!). Btwn 15-17Mar plan was upgraded to “be prepared” mission p6. 22 Mar Gen Natonski received orders to execute “be prepared” mission AND relieve the 3rd ID unit at the bridge EAST of Nasiriyah.(p7) Relief conducted at 0300. The 3ID tank company raced to catch up with the lead elements of the division which were 130 miles NORTH of Nasiriyah. (p8).

“The Marines were then requested to takedown the city to retrieve the survivors of the ambush.”
Nope. http://​www​.tecom​.usmc​.mil/​H​D​/​P​D​F​_​F​i​l​e​s​/​P​u​b​s​/​O​I​F/A… Would differ with that. The “be prepared” to take Nasiryah mission turned to an execute HOURS before the ambush and the plan to do so existed for two months. The orders to rescue the 507the came from Gen Natonski who pulled LTC Grabowski (1–2 USMC CDR) aside and said, “Rickey, you have to do whatever you can to Und those missing soldiers. They would do it for us, and we need to do it for them.” p8 There was no request, the Marines were the first to come in contact with surviving elements unless you consider Gen Natonski’s order a request?

“On the MEU subject in the years before the MV-22 was fully integrated but after the CH-46s were being mothballed several MEU’s deployed w/all 53s.”

Your record of lying (pointing to the previous examples) speaks to your credibility. Heck, you don’t even know how to use google. Frankly, I’m surprised you spelled it correctly.

Eric, we went over this months ago. We linked Army and Marine OFFICIAL HISTORIES of the war describing how Nasiriyah was 1stMARDIV’s mission from Day 1, the city was in 1MEF’s Area of Operations, and the Marines came upon the 507th hours after the ambush (which the survivors walked away from in their own vehicles without help from anyone). The Army went around the city because it was never on their to-do list and the tip of the spear was almost 100 miles past the city when the 507th ambush took place. Oddly enough, you stopped arguing with us during that debate after we linked those documents. Quick Google search? It took Maj Rod and I minutes to locate the Army and Marine histories of both the invasion (with maps) and the 507th’s after action report.

Of course it’s pointless, Mr expert CO,army, of Artillery of twenty yrs and only flew in them a couple of times. Gathering info on the H’s for selling on his own believe or for money in his pocketbook but has no knowledge of actuality of the difference in performance,maneuverability and capabilities in flying and no experience and just hearing a few with no concrete facts but just selling. I pay i higher in tax dollars where i live and I’m OK with the Nav/Marines decision on purchasing the H-53’s. I know both platforms and what they can do. Just for a few lingo in abbreviations terms from other branches.

Thanks, and thank you as well for keeping a discussion professionally opinionated and interesting.

Regarding Strategic… everything is relative… ie, doing things on a need to do asymmetrical basis, if required, in which an alternative platform simply could not achieve. No, it’s not operated as strategic on a day to day basis, but if required and called upon, the strategic CAPACITY is there. Also one could take into account extra survivability of a CH-53K if one engine is lost, vs the CH-47.

Regarding your argument on maintenance cost per hour, are you really trying to compare an old CH-53E (requiring either complete refurb and re-engine install, or outright new-build recapitalization), with a new build CH-47F entering service in 2012? Comparing an old CH-53K with a new-build CH-53K?? How about instead we give each model 5 years in service and then compare maintenance ratios (giving some margin slack to the K as a high-end strategic platform)?

Furthermore, the CH-53K unit cost estimate being quoted here as part of your argument includes Development costs! The quote being used is based on 200 units procured and R&D.

No doubt though, the CH-47F is a cost-effective system and FY14 unit costs could be $32m +/- when all said and done (minus specialized equipment). As such, I’ll take back my $65m USMC CH-47m quote as that was truly speculative as well. A Marine CH-47 variant however, would likely be something closer to a CH-47G though, including extended range and additional all-weather capability + survivability. So in fairness, it would be considerably more for an hypothetical FY14-FY15 unit buy than a baseline CH-47F quote.

Doing it over again, a 2nd time (if you’ll allow me to refine the plan), one could indeed argue that CH-53K should have been merely upgraded incrementally with avionics update packages and possible engine efficiency upgrades and just kept in production. That would have saved substantial procurement budgets at the trade-off of added heavy-lift capacity. But the Marines/DoD are stuck with the K now as being the offered model and there will most likely be substantially reduced orders than the 200 as a reality (I’d fathom somewhere in the 90–100 unit production range).

But again, let’s debate a Marine CH-47 variant replacing future MV-22 buys, then we can have a rather interesting debate.

The $128m estimate includes R&D and is based on 200 units procured (likely an unrealistic acquisition to begin with given a future downsized Marine Corps and austere budget environment). So it’s an apples and oranges argument when comparing a high-end 53K procurement cost vs an hypothetical FY14-FY15 CH-47 variant’s unit Gross Weapon Cost (probably something closer to a G, than F).

Also, CH-53K will be far less costly to maintain than old CH-53E. To compare old CH-53E maintenance costs vs a new-build CH-47F is further flawed.

If the Marines can’t afford the originally stated 200 units, then that’s a money decision. They’ll have to buy fewer birds (which would seem to be obvious), just as USMC will not be able to afford anywhere close to the number of F-35B originally conceived.

But as Eric makes the point too, the K model was designed and ordered to fulfill a USMC mission requirement — a requirement which would need to be reduced if an alternative platform was substituted for the required Kilo.

As for the helos, Your still missing the point that everything is seen thru the lens of a Force Entry MEB package.

The capability need was drawn up for overall movement efficiency, meaning you only have so legs to lift with. 1 53K is going to move 60% more than the 47.

Where do you park your 2 47s in the place of 1 53 for a combined whopping 15% lift increase?

This ain’t some sandlot in the desert. Where do you put the extra air frames, fuel, pilots, maintainers, crew? The Marine Expeditionary Brigade was designed to fit on to 17 ships but now has to squeeze into 14.

Less room on ship but you say add twice as many airframes, twice the pilots & crew, twice the fuel & maintainers for 15%more lift.

If the Marine’s never got on another ship you’d have a valid point(wouldnt have to worry about space or weight). If STOM & EMFTS werent extremely efficient ways to Project Force & conduct Forced Entry you’d have a point. But they are & they have unique requirements which the 47 doesn’t fill.

Mars – I’m willing to concede the CH53 is a strategic system if you are willing to concede the CH47 is also. We would not be able to conduct ops in Afghanistan without it. The point is mute as it pertains to justifying an exorbitant cost. As for survivability the CH47 has two engines. Again, not a point to justify the extravagant cost.

CH53K cost includes R&D? OK so does the CH47F. Again, mute point. The MH47G is an entirely different case and you really don’t want to bring it into the discussion. It has 30% more range than the 53K, adverse weather capable (FLIR, multi mode radar, inertial navigation), huge situational awareness capabilities and aerial refueling for only $39mil. I’m trying to be fair to the 53K.

No I wasn’t comparing the 53E against the 47F. The maintenance man hours per flight hour is readily available for the CH53E. Not so for the CH53K or CH47F though their hourly costs are (CH47 $2k/hr, CH53K $10k/h est.) and there is a correlation between hourly costs and man hours. The 53E takes over 40 hours of maintenance crew “work” per flight hour. Sikorsky “says” the 53K is going to be half that. OK, that should make it about 20hrs. The 47F is around 10hrs extrapolating from flight cost/hr (like unit cost, I’m giving the 53 the benefit of the doubt again). That’s how I get the maint crew req as being the same vs. contrary thought which is based on nothing but perceptions by folks with no experience/knowledge of the 47 (a VERY common phenomenon in this thread).

Still not buying your revamped position. Still too expensive (sorry) but the whole discussion is mute. There is little doubt the Marines aren’t going to change. My intent was to demonstrate the huge waste that can only be attributed to organizational inertia. When you get a chance research why the Marines waited four years to adopt the M1 Garand.

I can’t fault the Marines desire for the Osprey nor is it a fair comparison with the CH47. Its speed IS a game changer (100mph more than the CH47 or over 30% faster). It carries 20% less but has double the range at twice the cost of a CH47. Compared to the CH53K it’s downright thrifty!

Wrong again!!! You nor 53pilot would state where they got their numbers. The max payload for the 53K and 47F are 35K and 25k lbs each. The 27K for the 53K applies to a specific mission profile with MOST flight at sea level. The 17K for the 47F is the carrying capacity of the forward and aft hooks not the greater capacity middle hook. NOTHING to do with CH47Fs high/hot capability which is 16k lbs at 4000 ft for 50 nmi. The 53K is NOT MEASURED with this profile. That 110 nmi is mostly at SEA LEVEL!

Again, apples and oranges comparison by folks not looking/experienced with both aircraft and those that would parrot them without doing their own research.

BTW, the Army’s high/hot standard is tougher than the Marines (4000 ft, 95 degF vs. 3,000 feet on a 91.5 degreesF). http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​s​y​s​t​e​m​s​/ai

Apples and Oranges.

From what I understand this was the Boeing CH47 VARIANT they marketed. The XCH-62 was the PROTOTYPE name. If you want to blame anyone for that failure on not marketing the 47 properly, then it was Boeing ITSELF.

If you want them to do an updated trial, go ahead and start making phone calls. You said you at least had some connections somewhere.

From wikipedia:

In 1973, the Army contracted Boeing to design a “Heavy Lift Helicopter” (HLH), designated XCH-62A. It appeared to be a scaled-up CH-47 without a conventional body, in a configuration similar to the S-64 Skycrane (CH-54 Tarhe), but the project was canceled in 1975.
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​C​H​-​4​7​_​C​h​i​n​o​o​k​#​D​e​r​iva

Mars: Thanks for the reply

If you are looking at outsized strategic load capacity, we already have that. From a gross capacity standpoint, the 200 MH-53Ks can move 200 LAVs to some Littoral “Strategic” target. But our C-5 Fleet can already move 300 Strykers to a global strategic target. (Airdropping 3 Strykers is a reasonable, if unproven load for the C-5.) And we still have almost 200 C-17s for other loads. And it’s paid for. The biggest problem with the Airborne solution is that it is not a Marine solution.

I disagree with spending 25 BILLION dollars to give the Marines the capability to do something that we already can do. It would be nice, and sure is a cool helicopter, but I don’t think that we need it.

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If you want to argue that this is a reasonable capability at a reasonable price, that’s a different issue and I would ask if there is some top limit of what you think is reasonable to pay for a transport helicopter. The Chinook looks to be reasonably priced, or maybe a little high; the Stallion is outrageously overpriced. It has followed the same catastrophic cost trajectory that most of our DoD aviation programs follow. Sometimes the services come up with real cost effective winners of systems (Project Liberty, Harvest Hawk.) At $128M per aircraft, this is clearly not one of them.

I understand your point about reducing Marine requirements…. I am all for that! I think that it would be appropriate to ask why our amphibious forces are running around the desert or in the mountains of Afghanistan. But this is a different question with answers rooted in hundreds of years of history and not based on logic; I don’t want to go down that road.

The greatest threat to our nation is that we are broke. There is no “IF” it is a money decision, at this point they ALL need to be money decisions.

Cheers
John

I am not sure if Airborne would be best for the very possible war with china.

Please argue with this scenario:
http://​defensetech​.org/​2​0​1​2​/​0​6​/​0​4​/​a​i​r​-​s​e​a​-​b​a​t​tle–

Keep in mind, every US service branch imaginable has been running around in both the desert and mountains of Afghanistan.

The XCH62 was TWICE the length of the CH47, had the legs of a CH54 Skycrane which made it twice as high and had THREE engines. The fuselage alone was almost as long as the current CH53 WITH ROTOR BLADES! The XCH62 is a “variant” of the CH47 as much as the CH46.

First with the wrong length reference for the CH53, then trying to justify it and now looking for a nonexistent reference. You can’t even tell the numbers aren’t the same?

Again your quote was “it seems the Navy/USMC went against the SecDef, took the prototypes for comparision, and somehow convinced Congress the 47 was too big.” You can’t back that up without trying to lie and say the XCH62 was the CH47.

Don’t see where the case was being made for a war against China and the Marines aren’t going to take on China all by themselves either.

AirSea Battle is a publicity campaign anyway. It’s a ploy to fence budgets. It talks about branches working together as if it’s new. We’ve been doing that for decades.

BTW, “The USMC landed on Tinian Island utilizing C-130s and the roll-on-roll-off high-speed catamaran logistics ship the WV Westpac Express.” Yep, not a CH53 in the sky which is what this thread is about. http://​aviationintel​.com/​2​0​1​2​/​0​5​/​2​5​/​g​e​i​g​e​r​-​f​u​r​y-2

Orly?:

I followed your link and then went on to read up on Air-Sea Battle. I am convinced of the worthlessness of this doctrine… there is simply nothing of value there that competent militaries don’t already so. And the doctrine locks us into the same things that we do already, it just overinflates the threat generally and fails to identify specific objectives while trying to avoid offending anyone. Or allowing any USN or USAF funding to be cut. The Army is totally excluded from the plan, which should tell you something. It is a plan by bureaucrats on how to fight for money, not our nation’s military objectives.

This doctrine and buying these helicopters are not technical or operational decisions; they are political and emotional ones. The heroic Marines will probably get their expensive, gold-plated helicopters and the cheap and workable but pedestrian Airborne solution will be overlooked. The Marines will have contributed to our nation’s pending bankruptcy but nobody will blame them, so it doesn’t really matter to them. It IS distressing that these are so outrageously overpriced and that nobody can see that.

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As for all forces running around the desert… the Navy SEALs who got Bin Laden are a good example. The Navy wanted part of the action, they paid for it (with our money), and they got it. They wanted to cover themselves in glory and they succeeded. Notwithstanding the fact that there is no rationale for the Navy even being there, nor is this in any way related to core Navy missions. It’s politics, it’s common, and it’s wrong, but our senior leadership is without the character or fortitude to stop it.

Sorry for whining. Our spending has put nation is in danger like it has never been before, and we, its defenders, are part of the problem.

I still submit that the Airdrop solution is a more cost effective one that would accomplish the same mission as the Stallions if it were legitimately pursued. And based on my very limited reading of the document, there is no call for these helicopters, either.

Cheers!

John

I was in HMH 464 as well and agree about the nightmare. If I remember correctly it was 60 maintenance hours to one flight hour although they advertised it as one to one. The fact of the matter was that the Marine Corps had to sell the concept to congress as a retrofit as opposed to a redesign. This was putting 10 pounds of trash into a 5 pound bag. It all came to light when the first disconnect came apart. The K will be pushed as it keeps people employed.…Billy Jean King ring a bell ???

Hey RT.…I worked for you back then.

Todd, I think we may have crossed paths as well.

I’m a former grunt and I accept your surrender.

Special operations aviation *had*a large cabin capability until AFSOC retired the MH 53. It might be interesting to ask the customer whether that large cabin was a plus. According to those former Pavelow crews, it was some thing that the customer would have preferred to not do away with.

You are out of touch with what the CH-53E is doing now — it had been doing all of the work for the 46, and now is doing the work for the MV-22. It is the work horse of the Marine Corps!

I’ve never understood why we even have medium lift helos. I’ve seen 46s barely get off the deck in hot weather. Echos are the workhorses but they were brutal to maintain. It was 44 man-hours for every flight hour in my time. Since the Echos are now older I would surmise the man-hour to flight hour ratio has gone up.

We recently lifted a CH-47 spook bird with the CH-53E, the CH-47 weighed in at 30K lbs. Directly after we did that TRAP we lifted a British Merlin. CH-53E> ALL cant wait for the Kilo to come out.

The parts are not interchangeable. As an MMCO I used to get freaking Delta parts for the Echo all the time, They are not interchangeable. Look at the usable on codes in the manual.
James you are ill informed the Deltas on a hot day could barely lift anything. I just came from Afghanistan where they could only make a small contribution on cold nights. We are talking 2 vice 3 engines lol. Seriously.

They’ve come a long way MSgt, plenty of TRAPS in Afghanistan lifting 30k payloads. Lifted a CH-47 with a CH-53. got pictures to prove it. The E is the workhorse of the Corps. If you mean nightmare as in maintenance hours and parts, I agree, but its the best lifter we have in the fleet currently. An elastomeric head will hugely decrease maintenance hours and O&M funding requirements.….….…Capt & prior Crew Chief

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