High stakes in the JLTV competition

High stakes in the JLTV competition

Lockheed Martin would like you to know that just because it’s an aerospace titan that moonlights as a shipbuilder, that doesn’t mean it can’t also build a new fleet of ground vehicles for the Army and Marine Corps.

The company’s media day outside Washington this week provided a reminder of just how huge the world’s largest defense contractor really is — it makes Air Force fighters; Air Force cargo aircraft; Navy littoral combat ships; Navy Aegis equipment; satellites; bombs; missiles; radars — nearly $50 billion worth last year alone.

But it wants more, ever more, and that means breaking into the green services as well as the blue ones. Lockheed is one of six competitors trying to build the Army and Marines’ Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, but unlike most of the others, it’s never been a big vehicle company.


AM General; Oshkosh; BAE Systems; Navistar and General Dynamics — these are ground vehicle companies, and they’re also competing on JLTV. But Lockheed? Even with a division of BAE on its team, this is still the same vendor that its critics say is stuck in quicksand with the F-35 Lightning II — just the kind of program that’s supposed to be its core competency. It’s the same company that got out of shipbuilding, then got back in, and produced what congressional critics and public watchdogs have argued is a lemon of the seas.

You will not be surprised to hear that Scott Greene, Lockheed’s vice president of vehicle systems, sees it differently.

“From a capability and technology standpoint, ground vehicles seem to be a natural evolution from a Lockheed Martin perspective,” he said. “The major reason is this: If you go back 20, 30 years ago, there was a clear demarcation of the good guys one side of the line and the bad guys on the other side of the line. Things have been devolved over the last 20 years or so and I guess the phrase we’re coining now is asymmetric warfare … a vehicle can be in harm’s way at any time. So the vehicle has evolved, from a capability standpoint, and at any point in time could be in harm’s way. This is not just something that’s running bread and milk around. For the most part, in this asymmetric environment, now you’re in a complex environment.”

That, Greene argued, is Lockheed’s forte.

“Now you’re in a complex environment where you have some requirements that, to some, would look somewhat orthogonal: We want you to be very survivable, but we want you to be very lightweight. We want you to be very agile, and we want you to have great gas mileage. We want to have low total ownership cost. Those requirements don’t all line up nicely, so that’s the perfect opportunity for someone like Lockheed Martin, who’s got the whole systems-type thinking, to take a look at this problem and then, from a prioritization standpoint, say, ‘How do we be innovative; how do we get a design that meets these different demanding requirements in an affordable package.’ So from that perspective, it seems to make a natural progression for us.”

It is what it is — company officials weren’t going to say, “Y’know, yeah, we’d better stick to cranking out C-130s and not try to grow our profits with this potential business opportunity.” With most of its income coming from federal contracts, Lockheed wants the broadest possible range of work as a hedge against the coming plateau — or precipice — in the defense budget.

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If it works then fine I dont care what American Company made it as long as it works, and its American. Overall I dont see JLTV going far very soon with budget gridlock and sequestration coming I see this more of a post 2016 vehicle entering service.

Sure Lockheed has decimated the airforce and turned the navy into a laughing stock where else to turn it’s gaze of greedy desruction but to the army.

They must have hired a retired zero from the Army or Marines to “consult” and “lobby” for the contract. I wonder how many retired officers are employed at L/M in the F35 and LCS programs. There should be a law but of course they all believe in Duty, Honor, Country…and pocketbook. Plus they are retired and do not have to fly or sail in the crap they “design” and sell.

I really hope they don’t get the JLTV program. Their quality has plummeted over the last decade and this is going to be a front line vehicle and we don’t need any more issues that can be fixed after they are in service. Let one of the experienced American vehicle manufacturers do what they do best and make these vehicles. And phase out LM over the enxt 20 years, they produce junk now and our tax dollars deserve better not to mention our troops deserve much better.

Navistar has changed the way the US Gov’t does contracting with companies. No longer does teh US Gov’t have to pay to have things explored. Companies are now taking the iniatitive upon themselves and their own dollar by coming up with ideas and solutions for the US Gov’t. Navistar deserves the contract.

And I assume you don’t think these other defense contractors do not also employ retired generals, admirals, etc.

There is a law restricting them (05 and above) from working for contractors and lobying for 5 yrs, been there for decades but no one enforces it unfortunately. All the big contractors do it and the pentagon lets it go because it’s there old CO’s and buddies we are talking about. Kinda like our immigration and anchor baby laws that dont get enforced.

With LM’s current recorder as a benchmark if they get it, it will be way over budget and years behind schedule.

Rich Sr. Thanks I should have included all beltway Bandits not just L/M.

What law is that?

Old Navy — obviously an officer hater. “Zero”? “Duty Honor Country… and pocketbook”?

Officers I served with never referred to enlisted men as “E’s” or pay grade. Just shows a lack of a respect for the grade a servicemember achieves vs. referring ti a paygrade. You swim in the same scum covered pond.

It’s a shame the “Old Navy” didn’t have any NCO’s teach you anything and I could only wonder what you were caught doing that you shouldn’t have to hate officers and promote division. I have a great deal of respect and affection for the NCOs and enlisted I SERVED with. They were not cut from the same cloth as you.

I can’t say much for LM, but as far as the program goes, I hope AM General gets the lions share. I’m a bit biased though, since I live in South Bend-Mishawaka (home of AMG). I’ve got family and friends who have worked for them for years. Now that the Hummer commercial line is dead, and the contract for the Hummvee is waning, we really need this to keep going. We’ve got a city full of proud Americans that take pride in doing our part. Since WWII, South Bend and Mishawaka have contributed to the war effort. Studebaker, Bendix, and Ball Ban to name a few.

Oshkosh Corp has also used its own resources for Tand D phases of this contract. They also got the contract for the M-ATV which served the marines and other branches. Dont be suprised if they win this thing outright. I think the biggest advantage for OSK is that they have the suspension and drivetrain that is proven. Their prototype was run throught a vigorous baja event where many trucks dont even finish. They are also very flexible because they run their trucks down a line and not bay built. Could help save money and help them bid lower.

An aerospace company designing a truck. Wow. The last time the Army turned to aerospace industry to design a truck was the M561 Gama Goat. LTV was the company. 14 universal joints with no easy access. Lots of aerospace hardware in a lowly truck. Where are all the Goats today, besides on eBay?

No offense, but that was the Vietnam war. Things have changed a bit since then.…..

Even though I retired in 04 I still consider myself Old Navy. ZEROS and RING KNOCKERS (if academy)were used to respond to commisioned officers of lacking knowledge and personality (because they are commisioned they are in charge and enlisted cant be trusted). You have them in the Army as well and the enlisted guys use the term frequently amongst themselves. When ever officers make decisions based on career or finances with little to no regard for the men carrying the load, They are a zero in many a folks opinion.

if your asking about officers working for contractors I believe it is in 5CFR, I’ll look it up in full soon as I get a chance. IF your asking about anchor babies, INS states that the only way for children of immigrants to obtain citizenship is for the parents to become legal citizens before the childs 16th birthday. Illegal aliens is a given, they are breaking the law — fugitives from justice — any law enforcement can apprehend a fugitive, it is unlawful to aid or harbor a fugitive under penalty of imprisonment. If you let me know which one exactly your interested in would be helpful.

No doubt there are officers that don’t meet the standard of selfless service. There are just as many if not more NCOs that do the same. A simple search will reveal plenty of cases of immoral behavior. The difference is there’s no condoned stereotyping of NCO’s especially by officers. Any officer that would dare to speak poorly of enlisted men based on his rank with allegations of incompetence, untrustworthiness or stupidity would be corrected, disciplined and shunned by his peers. Never saw it in 24 years of being in uniform.

It is unprofessional, divisive and disloyal to do what you are describing. At the individual sure, but not the office or in general which is what you and Old Navy are doing. The NCO creed (if the Navy has one) specifically rejects such behavior. You sure you want to put yourself in the same group of officer haters?

Never said I hated officers, just stated I dont have any use or respect for bad ones any more than I did bad enlisted. Unfortunately though bad enlisted are easily washed out or cinfined for recalibrating while a lot of the time bad officers are just moved and or promoted so they could be moved. During my 24 yrs I had some darn good officers I worked with, had my share not worth anything as well and I let them know how insignificant they were.

You never “said” you hated officers but you obviously have a prejudice against them. (Try getting rid of any NCO above the most junior. Not easy.)

The use of therm “Zero” and “Ring Knocker” is derogatory to ALL officers or Academy grads. Don’t think so? Note the original post was deleted (I didn’t report it.). The same argument can be made for the selective use of mildly racist terms. Think about it… “I’m not refering to all ______, just the bad ones.” You can keep defending the use of the term. It reflects poorly on you.

I’ve had the privlege of serving with outstanding NCOs who never used those terms in my presence even when speaking of poor officers. If it’s not a term you would use in front of an officer you respect there’s probably something wrong with the term. Like many that are prejudiced you don’t even realize it.

My 1st BN CO only had to explain once (in passing) how unprofessional referring to soldiers by paygrade was. “An E-5 is a SERGEANT, a NON COMMISSIONED OFFICER with all that entails, not the fifth highest pay level.” Saying it’s easier to say “E-whatever” is lazy. I stopped right there (and for the next 20 years) even when NCOs have used that term to describe each other. When I had the time I’s simply ask why they called each other by their paygrade instead of their rank and what message they were sending those listening. You may want to think about that one also. I never allowed subordinate officers to use the term and rarely had to make the correction. There’s a lesson there. You have to respect yourself before you can respect others and you should be showing it if you expect to get it.

Well I never heard of anyone mentioning E whatever at anytime other than when writing evals just as officers were never called 0 whatevers. I guess it all depends on where you serve, I have heard other officers use the term ring knocker and zero on many occasions. Granted E-7’s and above are harder to get rid of than E-6 and below. Luckily for me I didnt have to worry about it too often until injuries and surgeries sent me back to the regular fleet where I had to deal with straight legs and line officers, They werent all bad, most were very good and those with the wrong attitude I had no trouble letting them know how insignificant they were as a senior enlisted should ocasionaly to ensure they become a good officer.

Bring back the Jeep.

Oh, so it’s a Navy thing… I’m understanding better and better.

All penalties in Japan seemed to use that E-6 and below system as well.

Made it easier to penalize everyone on the island.

Boomer — Your last sentence was illuminating… “those with the wrong attitude I had no trouble letting them know how insignificant they were as a senior enlisted should ocasionaly to ensure they become a good officer.” I’ve seen many an NCO “help” an officer, heck, I’ve had a few “help” me and I’m better for it. Never did they make the officer feel “insignificant”. Most appealed to the individual’s duty ethic or what enlisted men expect but no making them feel insignificant, that’s pretty appaling. Heck, I learned as a cadet making anyone feel insignificant wasn’t leadership.

Funny, you think better officers are made by letting them know “occasionally” that senior enlisted like you thought they were insignificant. Yeah, you aren’t an officer hater.

Actualy I’m not, some of my best freinds are mustangs and my platoon skipper was my best man and daughters god father. If you put everything into context from all of my responses on this post I have been reffering to officers that come in with the attitude that they are supperior beings knowing all and enlisted are at thier beckon call. Yeah I would quickly let them know how wrong they were and they didnt have enough time on the pond to make any decisions to make without going through me that didnt involve which shoe to put on first.

By the way, I spoke to a group of Army enlisted and warrants yesterday and they all knew that ring knockers are academy/point grads with attitudes and zero is used to describe a worthless officer. and yeah there are slang for enlisted also. So no its not just a Navy thing.

Oh Lockheed could build it but it will be over budget and behind schedule 6 months after they get the contract. Take a look at the Orin space contract and the Aerial Common Sensor Lockheed won, with 6 months they told NASA and the Army, oh we are behind schedule and over Budget. The ACS was cancel casue of this and the Orin ended up being cancel cause of the schedule

“No, I’m not an officer hater. I have mustang friends.” You don’t even see your prejudice. “Mustangs”? Only prior enlisted that became officers huh? Yeah, you aren’t an officer hater.

They were still comissioned officers, and the skipper was academy. Most regular officers outside of specops units wont hang and become friends with enlisted — That fraternization thing you know, gotta follow that book. I dont hate anyone, not even taliban or liberals, Ijust got no respect or use for some individuals that are a waste of good breathing air. You remind me of a major I had a run in with in kabul sayin me and my guys were gonna cause an international incident from using Isreali ARM’s to kill muslums. I could get it into his head politely that none we encountered knew what type of weapons we carried so I had to get him off my guys back less politely. Face it a lot of Army enlisted dont have much use for thier officers either, It’s not racist when it falls to all in the catagory equaly — it’s based on actions and not skin color. It’s not just a Navy thing.

All these companies employee dedicated American engineers, technicians and assembly workers, men and women, competing to do their best for our soldiers.
We’re all Americans and they deserve our respect and best wishes.

“They were still comissioned officers” yes but your BEST friends were mustangs and then, “Most regular officers outside of specops units wont hang and become friends with enlisted” making it the officer’s faults that they aren’t your “buddy”?

You don’t get it. Competence has nothing to do with friendship. Just because someone won’t be your “friend” doesn’t mean they have an attitude nor does it impact their competence.

You continue showing your prejudice and an inferiority complex. Now you say I remind you of some officer that gave you a hard time that you got rude with? Yeah, not an officer hater… You have a chip on your shoulder also and you camoflage it by blaming officers and sowing divisiveness in the ranks. You and Old Navy ARE cut from the same cloth.

Here’s a clue. Those “Zeroes” and ring knockers might not be the problem. Your personality isn’t too attractive.

My point was an remains that the use of those terms is insulting to all officers just like when someone refers to an NCO by their pay grade instead of their rank or stereotypes NCOs as untrustworthy or stupid.

If you want to keep using the terms and say they only apply to the losers that’s fine. Some racists use the term N—- and say it only applies to the bad black people or S— for the bad hispanics.

Honestly I think you have an issue knowing all officers are not regarded as highly by thier peers as they regard themselves. I have mentioned getting along with quite a few good all officers long before I mentioned mustangs being some of my closest friends and an academy grad as best man and godfather. As far as fraternization goes — brass made that ruling and I have yet to see any push by regular brass to do away with it.

Numerous quotes from my previous posts that state officers are not perfect or infallible (including me).

“No doubt there are officers that don’t meet the standard of selfless service.”

“I’ve had the privlege of serving with outstanding NCOs who never used those terms in my presence even when speaking of poor officers.”

“I never allowed subordinate officers to use the term and rarely had to make the correction. There’s a lesson there. You have to respect yourself before you can respect others and you should be showing it if you expect to get it.”

“I’ve seen many an NCO “help” an officer, heck, I’ve had a few “help” me and I’m better for it. Never did they make the officer feel “insignificant”.”

No doubt some enlisted men don’t respect officers as much as some officers think they should and in many cases the enlisted may be right (the same goes for the other direction). My point is that it is not professional to use terms disparaging a group of leaders as you are doing. Officers don’t do it to enlisted or they’d be crushed by their peers and superiors. Unfortunately this blog is not an adequate venue to teach you the professionalism you didn’t learn in the Navy.

And I never said I used it that I only knew what the terms meant and that I have heard them used frequently by Army personnel thus it is not a NAvy thing, I have even heard officers use the terms more than once (Navy and Army). You keep insisting it would not be tolerated in the Army but it is there anyways along with other items the military frowns own. We might be able to force troops to follow orders, stand at attention and say yes sir no sir all day long but you cannot force anyone to respect you, it must be earned. And to me professionalism is getting the job done and taking good care of your guys, it has nothing to do with being politically correct or kissing six.

“And I never said I used it” Then why are you defending the use of the term after I clearly stated they were insulting?!?!?!?! “Even though I retired in 04 I still consider myself Old Navy. ZEROS and RING KNOCKERS (if academy)were used to respond to commisioned officers of lacking knowledge and personality (because they are commisioned they are in charge and enlisted cant be trusted).”

“You keep insisting it would not be tolerated in the Army”

Where did I say that? I’m stating there’s a double standard. You don’t see derogatory terms used by officers to describe substandard NCOs because it demeans the entire NCO corps. Heck, it was considered poor form to even refer tol NCO’s by their paygrade.

Don’t put words in my mouth or work on increasing your reading comprehension. This argument was started by a former SAILOR using derogatory terms to describe officers. His post was subsequently deleted by the mods (not at my request). You continue to justify the double standard of prejudice and defend the ue of those slurs. For the THIRD time, compare it to ethnic slurs. Aren’t ALL offended by the use of a SLUR whether it’s directed at them or not. Quit camouflaging your prejudice.

OK so now its officers dont have buzz words for enlisted?? You raised the BS flag on that one not me.

We do? If they are derogatory slurs, I’l be happy to condem their use. Enlisted men and NCOs should never be treated with disrespect or stereotyped. What are they?

cricket…cricket…cricket…

NOTE I’m not making excuses for disrespecting anyone that wears the uniform.

BTW, it’s not officers here talking about enlisted in a deragatory manner as you try and change the subject.

Navistar stole their JLTV design from BAE. We built our TD Phase vehicles in their dump of a plant in West Point Mississippi. They promised us an assembly line and 30 personell. It turned out to be a corner in the back of the plant and 6 of the dumbest workers they had. That build was 5 months of hell. Navistar was a terrible partner who ended up stealing our design.

When is contract award expected for the EMD phase?

I sure hope you are right! I work for Oshkosh and I know we build quality!

lockheed has been hood winking the USA for many years. if they are allowed to put any army vehicles in service there should be a requirement that an m1 abrams be required to follow it around as they will build the most unrealiable piece of crap at a the price of buying the best politicians money can buy. lockheed has even gotten caught cheating on the red light cameras in san diego and other cities by reducing the yellow times so they could collect their % of the fines.

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