South China Sea standoff

South China Sea standoff

Chinese warships refloated a Chinese military frigate Sunday that grounded July 11th near a disputed shoal 70 miles off the shore of the Philippine province of Palawan. It was the latest standoff between China and its neighbors who have staked claims to these potentially gas– and oil-rich shoals.

Most of the shoals barely peak above the sea, yet it’s whats underneath that has left foreign investors salivating and led to tense standoffs between the navies in the region. China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines have all staked claims to shoals and reefs that make up the island chains throughout the South China Sea and stand to make whatever country owns them very rich.

China is seen as the bully in the region repeatedly sending military ships on patrols near these shoals. For its part, the U.S. has butted into this dispute holding recent exercises with the Philippine and Vietnam navies. Similarly, U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta made a much publicized trip through Southeast Asia in June. During a stop in Vietnam he announced the U.S. would increase the percentage of naval ships it deploys to the Pacific region from 50 to 60 percent by 2020.


The announcement falls in line with the new U.S. defense strategy that further emphasizes the Pacific. Some defense analysts even questioned if Panetta’s trip was spurred by tensions that have built up in the South China Sea.

In April, a standoff occurred when a Philippine warship caught Chinese fishermen sailing next to the Scarborough Shoal, another disputed shoal both countries have claimed. Two Chinese warships sailed to the fishermen’s defense cutting off access to the shoal to the Philippine navy.

Eventually, cooler heads prevailed, but the incident has sparked only further questions about this most recent Chinese frigate’s grounding. There were even reports in the Philippines that the Chinese deliberately grounded the frigate to set up a military outpost near the disputed Half Moon Shoal.

Despite being allies with the Philippines, the U.S. has conveniently remained on the fringe of full support for the Philippine government in their territorial claims of these shoals and reefs. The U.S. continues to provide support, though, with their naval presence.

In the midst of this most recent standoff, the USS George Washington aircraft carrier made a routine port visit in Hong Kong after exercises with the Japanese and South Korean navies. Analysts say the countries in the region will become even more dependent on the U.S. to increase their naval presence as these South China Sea standoffs persist over territorial claims.

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This is why the Philipphines really need to start building up their Navy and start buying into a multi role frigate. They need to get started on buying used Multi Role frigates

China better be careful before we come after them with our LCS’s and F35s…
Note: I’m being funny.

Same with Nicky Time to sell older Destroyers to the Philippines and F-15A and F-16A fighter to there Air Force. They need them.

especially those LCS’s armed with ‘friken lazers’ ;-D

How many ships will be cut with sequestration? I’m only asking because increasing Naval ships deployed to the Pacific by 50–60% may be hard to do after the axe starts to fall. Especially if we are still “worried” about Iranian shananigans and our resurgent Soviet friends who may see it as a sign that Europe is ripe for the taking.

And let’s not forget about the naval presence that we have been trying to establish in the Strait of Hormuz. I have to agree with you, we sure do seem to be spreading ourselves pretty thin as far as the Navy is concerned.

Wasn’t it the Phillippine government that told us it was time to leave back in the early 90’s? I remember us having a nice, large military presence there at one time. So our military is only necessary when they need them? They just don’t want us polluting their society when they aren’t being threatened.

More cost effective to buy SSKs if they want to keep the Chinese off balance.

Let Europe handle Europe. New NATO members join to drag us into their conflicts, and they don’t even spend the minimum on defense.

I am a christian and I do not believe in wars. I also believe they need to defend themself in an event of attack.

The Philippines are awash in corruption. Its why we left (forced out) to start with. Until the Philipino people decide to start living a different way, its a hopeless situation.

How do you propose that they defend themselves then?

Maybe the US navy should sell the ships to the Philippines and contract out the crews to man them. That would give the Philippines time to build and train their own forces before the crews wire brought home.

The lord is my shield, sword and my salvation. If they believe in God, they should do the same.

Can the Philippines afford this stuff? Currently we are giving them our old cutters?

Nope, point to you, however, if they are looking for the most cost effective way to challenge the Chinese on the ocean and for control of various island chains, subs are the way to go.

From what I heard, The Italians are looking to give the Philippines the Maestrale class frigate, Lupo class frigate and Minerva class corvette. Their are rumors that Italians may unload the San Giorgio class amphibious transport dock to Philippines as well.

We are bankrupt. So is the Philippines. That’s why they rely on donated Coast Guard cutters. If you want them to have a real navy we should just give them some of ours. The US can’t afford its fleet. Then let them defend their territory. And yes, the Philippine is a very corrupt country, no matter which politician is in charge.

It’ll be hard for the Philippines to operate, manage and maintain equipments. Graft and corruptions alone is the culprit. Ask any of the generals in the Armed Forces of the Philippines.

How many UH-1H did the US government hand over to the Philippine government since 1990? >300. How many are left flying? <20. How many C-130H were handed to the Philippines? How many are still flying?

It’s not a question of “what equipment can the US government hand over to the Philippines”. The question should be “how LONG will this piece of equipment CAN BE in service”. You can give Perry-class FFG to the Philippines, but if the AFP doesn’t have the funds to maintain the ship’s structure, electronics and weapons, then what chance does an FFG against a Type 54A?

If facing China larger ships like a few Cruiser and destroyers will be better than a frigate.

How would the PN pay for the cost of manning, maintaining, and equiping this force? It wouldnt.

We are not bankrupt. We have credit and still can come out of this it just takes reviving our economy, reforming our tax codes and our MONSTEROUS social welfare cost.

Yes Mark and that is the question that has been asked for quite awhile.

Yes but they cant afford to equip or maintain them so the point is mote.

Lulz i picked up a hater :)

I think a better use of our resources rather then providing them with new equipment would be to help increase the training of there military personnel and to help build additional schools.
For the long term equipment issues, enacting a program like we did with the F-5 during the 1960’s for a corvette and frigate size ship would provide a dramatic increase in performance and availability for poorer country’s in the Pacific. This will greatly benefit both the national security of both the country receiving it and the U.S.‘s. All of the Coast Guard ships, helicopters and aircraft we have given them in the past 20 years have been old when we gave them to the Phillipines, so of course they were going to have a hard time maintaining them.

Here’s a more recent rumor that Philippine Air force is looking at getting attack helicopters from Italy such as the Agusta A129 Mangusta or South Africa’s Denel AH-2 Rooivalk
http://​www​.engineeringnews​.co​.za/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​p​h​i​l​i​ppi

I think the best thing for the Philippines is to look to Russia for Ships, Aircraft and hardware. Look at the reliability of the Russian Hardware such as the AK-47 and the AK-101. Since the Philippines have problems trying to maintain their ships, aircraft and hardware. I think the Russian route is the best way to go since they have maintenance issues.

If I were the Philippines, I would look at getting a Krivak class frigate, Neustrashimyy class frigate or the Talwar class frigate. Even the Steregushchy class corvette would be a good option for them and the Gepard class frigate as their corvette fleet. The Buyan class corvette would round out as their patrol fleet. If they want submarines, a used type 209 or a used Kilo SSK would be perfect for them.

That whole area is studded with atols and shallow water. Subs are NOT the solution there. They are far more likely to run aground than a surface ship. Now blocking Chinese ports… yes. Defending atols and islets? No.

Just take a very quick scan on Google earth for a very brief inspection of why the Philipines/Inonesia are a horror for subs let alone surface shipping.

Pipelines in the gulf. If the best hand for Iran is blocking hormuz (or saying that they will block it). Work to soften the impact. Build pipelines from the gulf states to Oman/Eastern Saudi Arabia.

China is dangerous. They have more than 3000 nuclear ballistic missiles, more than 30 attack submarines, more than 100 missile boats, more than 20 destroyers, more than 2 million military personel„ more than 4 million reserve, etc.

@Belesari: Don’t mock me. I LIVED in the Philippines for 30 years. I saw what has happened to the armed forces. I saw what equipment were given by the US government to the Philippines. I saw corrupt Philippine Army officials hand over crates of weapons and ammunition to different rebel factions in the south.

F-5A sitting on tarmac in Manila. Unable to fly or even perform simple 3G turns because metal fatigue. Frigates and corvettes beached in because the water pumps won’t operate and the hulls are full of holes. C-130H flying from one end of the Philippines to another on two engines (two others turned off on purpose) because of lack of fuel.

Dude, if PRoC want to wipe out the Philippine Armed Forces, they can in a heartbeat. China sends half a dozen Type 54A and it’ll be over.

Probably it’s a good idea to help the Philippines built its self defense force. The sooner we help them the sooner our obligation will be. Self defense force like missile shield , missile defense, anti aircraft defense and anti ship defense. The Philippines is a peaceful country but it needs its defense force to defend itself from an attacking force like China.

Probably it’s a good idea to help the Philippines built its self defense force. The sooner we help them on helping them build their defense force the less our obligation will be. Self defense force like missile shield , missile defense, anti aircraft defense, anti ship defense, technological transfer, building it’s own submarines, missile boats, missiles, aircraft for self defense. The Philippines is a peaceful country but it needs its defense force to defend itself from an attacking force like China. The Philippines is willing to defend it’s territory if attack by China. But it needs technology and help to build its competent self defense force to withstand the threat of China on the territorial conflict and disputes.

It is already being done.

The Philippines cannot afford a modern Navy. It is to the US’s best interest to use the Philippine Navy as its proxy in the area. Much like what we do in the fight against Abu Sayyaf. Philippine military do most of the fighting.…we supply a lot of the equipment, intel, etc.

But, all this is REALLY about the Civilian Money Makers and the Billions of Dollars to be made from Gas and Oil. This will (could) lead to War and who will profit ? The SAME SOB’s that today collect the billions in profits from the world’s existing Gas and Oil. And it will be your sons and daughters who will die (meaning all countries involved), and the SOB’s sons and daugters will drive a new(er) Porsch.

After analyzing the would be scenario, Nobody will end up a winner on this if war erupt. There would be millions of civilian casualties. And our God above wouldn’t want that.

China is a world power we don’t want to get involved with. They could stomp out the Phiiapines in no time if they wanted and a war with China would become a World War. No one would win economically.

Let the Phillipines suffer, they had the chance to keep our protection in place and chose to rid their country of the US presence as well as the financhial aid.

Not at all. It’s not about NATO members trying to drag us into their conflicts, please… let’s talk sensible here.

Europe is still today the core and common ally of the USA despite our often times differences at the political and economic level. Personally, many times I actually side with Europe on these differences, even though I’m a yank. Nevertheless, if the USA took this attitude following WWII ie, “Let Europe handle Europe”… things would look a whole lot different today in terms of Cold war stand-offs, liberal western civil rights, successful economic integration and development, quality of life, and overall security.

So how do we translate a proper mindset today, fast forward to 21st Century? Far more calculated and competently than it arguably has been over the past 10–12 years for one thing. But when times are in crisis mode and a future in significant uncertainty, I’m sorry, but we don’t blow off our top allies and common partners, with an yet further arrogant and ignorant attitude by saying “Let them handle themselves”.

Partnerships and alliances need to adapt, reform and modernize in new ages… not self-destruct.

Jennings, I realize you only put into thought 3 lines worth of comment but I feel you might be slighting or missing the deeper Pilipino history nonetheless.

The Kingdom Arkipelago as a whole has until very recently been literally either heavily influenced or controlled by external spheres of influence, or outright administered by colonial rule since the late 1400’s. Probably more than any other modern Southeast Asian country. Prior to then, there’s not much history other than being an out flung autonomous archipelago region of Southeast Asian peoples capturing as much trade along the expanding and prospering trade routes. Going way back, during the last ice age 20,000+ years ago, good folks from the African continent (negritos), among others across South Asian region and greater Asia, made their way by foot to modern day Philippines to settle somewhere more prosperous and peaceful.

What was a clear set-back with the newly independent Filipino govt post-WW II was their deep plunge into autonomy during the height of the Cold War when everything was corrupt and corruptible in the name of survival and security. The timing for a Kingdom of Philippines developing as an independent ‘Asian Tiger’ was very unfortunate.

How does all this tie into a response to your comment? I just think we should give the Filipino people more respect and credit for asking the US to leave post-Cold War, taking advantage in part of the Mt. Pinatubo disaster. Finally trying to begin the long process of some semblance of national autonomy and independence and development with minimal strings and control attached.

Recall, it took China over 700 years in modern era of this sort of development and trouble-shooting process to achieve such unification, independence and distinctly Chinese capability, albeit experiencing much setback and harm along the way.

I just think we as the US (and others interested) need to support the Philippines archipelago now at this critical juncture only, in order to support them in boost-starting and accelerating their respective modernized independence process, development and self-sufficiency.

You forgot to add… Hence, China would never attempt to militarily stomp out Philippines in no time at all, as PRC political leadership would not allow such potential for economic damage created by a likely expanded military confrontation.

Respects to your 30 years vantage point worth in Philippines. Although as of late, systems and methods are starting to change there too, like most everywhere else today…

As you might know, AFP has started to take initiative in studying and investing in upgrading home-grown capabilities. For instance, one such initiative involves an exchange programme in Vietnam to learn how to better maintain and build small boat shipping. Philippines is on track to becoming more capable in these regards.

However, perhaps a relatively cheap and effective way to counter-balance that invading fleet of Type 54A you envision, omg, would be to procure some surface and ground launched anti-ship cruise missiles. For pure conjecture sake, let’s propose a NSM class munition operational by 2018. Base some ground mobile AShM on Palawan. These could be supplemented by a single or dual-shot armed indigenous/license-produced patrol boat of perhaps around 25-30m class. Very doable and sustainable within 5–8 yrs progress. Just something asymmetrical along this line would add fairly significant self-defence credibility. For a cost-effective and reliable air component, I’d ponder the single-engine Super Tucano turbo-prop being equipped with stand-off Brimstone II and eventually the follow-on SPEAR 3 extended range variant?

It isn’t an increase of 50–60%, it is increasing from 50% to 60% with homeport shifts from the east coast to the west coast. The article is misleading in that nature.

Agreed! Besides, I see more and more, that our allies see their responsibility expanding now anyway. After the Libya cooperation, this gathered strength. I think they saw how difficult it was with our limited cooperation.

Besides the fact that MacArthur’s father ran a fairly obnoxious campaign against the Philippine people after the Spanish American war. The only thing that repaired part of that resentment was the cooperation in getting rid of a worse enemy in the Japanese occupation.

MacArthur probably prosecuted one of the first asymmetric wars after the US native American conflict. He made up for his lack of guerilla tactics by simply killing them all, and letting God sort them out. When that backfired on him, he finally captured their top leader alive, and made a peace pact.

It would still probably be cheaper to train and man them with their people; even with the corruption. We used to pay Turkey to take WWII assets off our ships in port, that we were donating to their military, so they could afford to unload the supplies. Now look how well Turkey is today. Probably one of the West’s best allies in the Middle East. I put them way ahead of any other such country, as they put their troops into western conflicts since before the world wars. Even though they may have picked the wrong side in WWI, this has been a good source of cohesion between the Middle-East and the West.

Sell them the LCS debacle to recoup the taxpayers money and then develope a TRUE FRIGATE that can meet the requirements for less money.

The Mt. Pinatubo volcanic eruption did it for us not the Philippines wanting us out. Southern Philippines is a much better port anyhow. This is why we have a “refueling” station there. We have a rich history of alliance with the Philippines. The government, the constitution, the military, etc. based on ours, however on a Spanish framework much like Puerto Rico. This is why they’re both corrupt.

damn.… we malaysian use 2 subs from dcns to patrol there… no big deal if u got enough oceanography data on the disputed area…

It is in the best interest of The United States of America economically, politically, diplomatically to help the Philippines build its defense force. Being a big brother to this paradise islands, the sooner USA assists the Philippines builds their defense force the less USA obligations will be. Philippines self defense force like missile shield, missile defense, anti aircraft defense, anti ship defense, technological transfer, building it’s own submarines, missile boats, missiles, aircraft for self defense. The Philippines aside from being a peaceful country, it is almost similar to USA where democracy reigns. Initially, businessmen and investors were lured by China but this will change overtime. They will have to tap and unearth the hidden treasures of the Philippines, it is her people.

God bless the Philippines, the United States of America, the Asean members, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Greece, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada.

Time to open up Subic Bay.

China PLA military is currently pointing their ballistic missiles possibly armed with nuclear warhead at the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan and USA forces in China sea.

http://​www​.youtube​.com/​w​a​t​c​h​?​v​=​9​s​4​-​f​G​7​T​z​5​Y​&​a​m​p​;fe

1st of all we do not have an Obligation to the Philippines. The Best Idea would be for us to stop opposing the Chinese expandtion in their own sphere of influence. There is a reason its called the South China Sea.
Same goes for the Persian dominating the Persian Gulf, how stupid are we thinking we can turn back thousands of years of history with little treaties and aid to corrupt governments
If there is a threat to the South Carolina Sea or the Straits of Detroit, well thats different.

Yes DNA tests for all vets so we can reunite over 300,000 Filipino-American children(now adults) with their loving Daddies.

More targetsfor us to hit, its a no brainer, sounds like a ww2 senario. Japan had more ships, more planes, more men, more subs, and so on„,guess who won .….….….….….….. don t throw in the towel so fast.

Dont worry about this stuff. Americans are only happy when Walmart is open 27/7.

I am a little (a lot) confused. The US govt keeps sanctioning more and more technology and manufacturing intelligence export to China, and at the same time we seem to be in an escalating conflict with them. I am very, very confused.

I just had my showers and saw this on the net today.

China’s Sea Defence System
http://​www​.youtube​.com/​w​a​t​c​h​?​f​e​a​t​u​r​e​=​e​n​d​s​c​r​e​e​n​&​a​m​p​;am

china can have numbers.…. several nukes thrown own them and the 6 million army will be reduced to dust

China also owns more of our debt than any other country in the world. They can crash the dollar in a heartbeat.

Its amazing how so many people are not up to date with their knowledge of the Philippines. First of all, they are now a creditor nation. They even sent IMF last month 1 Billion dollars to help bailout the Europeans. They have one of the lowest debt to reserves ratio in Asia having 80 Billion in reserves and about 60 B in debt. They have ordered a dozen TA-50 (f-16 lite) for their LIFT program to prepare for the MRF program after 2016. They also ordered 2– Maestrale class Frigates from Italy and is about to fully arm the 2 Hamiltons with ASW, AShW, AAW systems and its about to BUY another Hamilton. Coast Guard just bougt 10 patrol boats and 2-1000ton brand new cutters. MPA’s, C-27j’s, Centauro B-1 mobile gun systems etc. The hottest stock market in Asia and a booming economy. Please check your sources before commenting. You maybe 20 to 30 years behind!

And some corrupt generals in the AFP’s and government has been indicted etc..etc.. Most of us seen the news about corrupt officials and a lot of policemen…one reason why we think the whole nation is corrupt.…not true..there are still patriotic officers and officials in that country who worked for a living..i know a couple of generals whose family do not live as well as they would like to because of their dedication.. True„the last president and her family were so corrupt it was an embarrassment It is a hard life , hard living in the Philippines and can’t blame some of them for being what they are..they call it in english “hanging over the edge” in the Philippines..hanging unto the blade of a knife…

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