CSAF: ‘Long-range strike’ is coming in the 20s

CSAF: ‘Long-range strike’ is coming in the 20s

Outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz leaves behind a very different service from the one he found.

As our senior blue-suit correspondent Michael Hoffman wrote Wednesday, Schwartz’s Air Force embraced unmanned aerial vehicles and C4ISR; picked its nuclear mission up off the ground and created Global Strike Command; and tried to shed some of its traditional big war perspective to focus on Iraq and Afghanistan.

It also, at long last, signed a contract for a new fleet of KC-46A tankers and leaves another important legacy: Its much-thought-about, seldom-discussed new bomber.


Schwartz told reporters at the Pentagon on Tuesday that his presumptive successor, Gen. Mark Welsh, has a different job in trying to execute the tanker and bomber programs, as opposed to just getting them officially on the books, but that he remains confident the Air Force will field “long-range strike” in the next decade.

There’s a lot of secret-squirrel stuff involved, but Schwartz stands by the goal of relying on a system family of systems to threaten all the bad guys’ targets, of which the new bomber (inspirationally dubbed “LRS-B”) would be a part. But as Air Force Magazine’s Mark Schanz pointed out, we normies haven’t been able to see much progress so far. Never you mind, Schwartz said — stuff is going to happen.

Per the transcript:

Q: You mentioned in your opening statement that the long-range strike family of systems — during your tenure, the next bomber program came back onto the books. Unless something has changed, and you’re still looking at about a 10– to 12-year timeframe for that going out into the ramp, to an outsider, I don’t believe there’s been any official requirements document made for this program. So is that timeframe realistic at this point from where you stand?

GENERAL SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I think, you know, we’ve talked about beginning to field the platform in the mid-20s. And there are requirements. And we’re going to pursue this program in a very disciplined fashion, and do it in a way that capitalizes on already proven technologies, in aircraft manufacturing, in sensors, in you know, avionics integration, and so on and so forth.

So, we succeeded in persuading the secretary that this is a capability the country must have, that being able to place targets at risk wherever they may be is an American strong suit, largely performed by the United States Air Force, and that is extending a sense of vulnerability on others is a tool of statecraft and one we should not concede.

Problem is, the Air Force’s plans to keep much of these efforts secret will make it difficult to know what’s what at any given moment. But given the Air Force’s recent history of managing its acquisitions, including its tanker saga and its attempts to award a contract for a Light Air Support aircraft, its leaders today and tomorrow will probably continue trying as much as they can to stay out of the public view.

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I wise investment that is long over-due. Now they need a KPP for cost, we do not need to repeat the insane cost & schedule growth of the F-22 and F-35 programs. They should also consider increasing the LRSB buy beyond 100 and reducing the F-35 buy since the F-35 will lack the range and payload (and survivability) needed to address many of the targets and no longer represents a bargin in terms of capability for a given cost. If done right, the LRSB could represent a bargin in terms of the ability to address targets per total cost to prosecute those targets.

I felt a similar notion when GEN Pace retired as CJCS. He did a round-the-world farewell tour telling troops deployments would soon be down to 9 months(and this was in the middle of the Iraq surge). That didn’t happen until this year.

We could probably build a bomber today with OTS tech that would be a leap over what we currently field. Somehow if it isn’t going to happen until the mid 20s I don’t think we are using current tech that “capitalizes on already proven technologies” if we aren’t going to have them for another decade. Which means we will piss $ down some rat home while contractors whisper sweet nothings in our useless general’s and congressman’s ears.

Yet the B-52 will out live it ;). Overall this is up in the air sequestration and cuts may make such programs years longer to produce. Overall a updated B-2 would do the trick for now.

With “Sequestration” right around the corner, I really don’t think the ‘Long Range Bomber Program” will survive if it happens. The Air Force will pour what $$$ they get into for the JSF. Which is a HUGE Mistake, but that is what they will do.

I agree with ( STemplar ) if they do avoid “Sequestration” , they wont use OTS tech ( which could get a Highly Advanced Bomber relatively Quickly ) and we will be in for “Another Contractor Fun Filled ULTRA EXPENSIVE money pit ’

The US Air Force can extend the life of their fleet of B-1B bombers further by upgrading the engines to PW F119 engines from the F-22 Raptor as this would allow the B-1B bombers to fly at Mach 1.5–2.2 and give the US Air Force a capability it doesn’t have as well as time to decide on whether they want a successor to the B-1B or the B-2.

A bomber that flys at Mach 1.5–2.2 equals a bomber that is useless against an advanced air defense system. Even Syria could handle it. I’ve yet to see the rationale that demonstrates that the B-1 is no longer adequate, much less the B-2. Neither China nor Russia is concentrating on long range bombers, preferring instead to work on missile technology to destroy long range bombers. Apparently, they feel that if they can knock bombers down, so can we, thus the lack of interest in blowing more money.

The only use I see it for is special opps where a huge bomb load may be needed speedy quick in far off locations, that can’t be reached in time with anything less than several squadrons of fighters with mid air fuel support(kinda overkill — really) Even then I could envision it being an exo-atmospheric vehicle that would actually reach speeds many times faster than that. This would also be why it is being pushed out to the ‘20s, while advanced materials improve, and the way to manufacture it becomes mature and cheaper to make. This is part of why the F-35 was such a boondoggle in cost — I estimate — Of course, I’m no expert, so I’m just guessing. I do try to keep up with the latest in aircraft design, and sometimes visit a shop or two, to see what’s up.

And of course, their is always stand off weapons to evade the best of the best in anti-aircraft — I doubt anyone can shoot down a vehicle of such speed though. It could not loiter worth a crap, but then follow up missions could arrive using more conventional aircraft.

They are still going to need a basic bomb truck to replace the B-52. I don’t see an end to bombing support, like that, for skies that we have complete control over (providing we keep that edge). If it were any cheaper than missiles, maybe a return to the ideas of Gerald Bull on the HARP project are in order. These “cannons” could be placed in several strategic points on the globe, to reach pin point targets in record time, with no launch signature, and almost no, or very little warning of incoming. I actually can’t see why these trans-linear accelerators, couldn’t literally be used for resupply missions, providing the load can take such accelerations, and re-entry heat. Imagine being able to supply totally independent spec-ops missions in deep in country, with no other air assets!!

Pardon my skepticism, but I can’t help thinking that any manned bomber we build is going to be nothing but a large, expensive target with a very short life expectancy, unless the enemy air defenses are totally degraded first. And if we’ve totally degraded the enemy air defenses, you might just as well kick the bombs out the back of a C17.

I had always hoped that the air force would build a stretched version of the F-22. There were a lot of articles about the FB-22 years ago, but the concept never took off. It would have stretched the F-22 fuselage by 10 feet, allowing for more than three times the amount of bombs and increasing the range from 600 miles to around 1600 miles. The FB-22 could carry 30 SDB’s instead of the 8 an F-22 can carry.
It will never fly, but it would have added an interesting set of capabilities to the air force arsenal. http://​www​.globalsecurity​.org/​m​i​l​i​t​a​r​y​/​s​y​s​t​e​m​s​/ai

Which threat is it that we can’t currently “thwart”?

The USAF isn’t going to be able to afford this. They canceled the C-27J to feed more money to the F-35. If they couldn’t afford the C-27J I wonder how they plan on getting funding for this.

They won’t be able to, the ( MONEY PIT ) JSF will drain very precious $$$ away from programs that might actually work. But as long as they get their F-35, that seems to be all they care about.

Having spent many years foing the “Secret Squirrel” stuff, I do not worry about our future aircraft, We had the F-22 ready to go and build fleetwide in 1993. It was cancelled by President Clinton, it took up to Bush2 to finally get the program going and by that time it was ready to be retired on our schedule — then everythoing had to be updated on an 18 year old plane. The SKUNK WORKS builds them on time on schedule and as inecpensively as possible, and does a great job. It is the politicians that mess it uo afterwords by going competitive and even then looking at Foreign aircraft which the Armed Forces have plenty of and the supply line for those can be stopped by one wrong word of Mrs. Climton or President Obama to the suppplying country. =NIGHT STALKER

Civilians with AK47’s buried in the bottom of the garden and visions of paradise.

Given a nice uniformed enemy with tanks and ships and jet fighters, Yes the US can whip them three ways from Sunday and still have time to sit in the shade with an ice cream after.

take away the uniforms and submerge them in the general population and the US army is hamburger. too many ROEs and non-violence orders from congress get in the way.

I don’t think these guys have learned anything from past debacles. CBO says it will all go to hell by 2030, so they may be waiting in vain.

Check back for your history, it was Cheney as SecDef in 1990 with his Major Aircraft Review which made the first chop in production and put the first production back to 1998.

The only concession the US need make to the rest of the world, possibly, would be the adoption of the metric system as its standard… And then, only as a means to create jobs and expand warehousing and transportation to accommodate the change. The US is the leader in globalization, innovation and integration and as such has the necessity to maintain and protect that status.

Upgrade the B-1B to the B-1R, this is something that we could have now and will be effective until 20 years from now when they finally field the new bomber. We should upgrade all F-22s and replace all F-15Cs with F-22s.
Money? Well maybe it would be worth more and not cost so much if we weren’t printing it like it was going out of style. Maybe we would have more of it if we weren’t subsidizing the rest of the World’s defenses (Europe, Korea, Japan, Afghanistan, etc.).

My sentiments exactly! Except maybe cutting the F-35.

You’re completely wrong. The NGB will be very stealthy and thus able to operate even inside environments guarded by modern IADS. It may even itself be tasked with eliminating these IADSes. And it will certainly have a long service lifetime, just like the B-1, B-2, and B-52.

By cutting back on the $388 bn F-35 program, that’s where.

The B-1 is no substitute for the NGB. B-1s and B52s are not stealthy, have large RCSes, and are therefore unsurvivable and easy to detect and shoot down.

Good story. 1. Just enough facts. 2. Those that are missing seem to make the (paid and unpaid) chattering class unhappy.

Detect and shoot down — by the Taliban?? When have the Taliban ever shot down a B-52? What enemy are you planning for combat with — the Chinese? We owe them so much money that we could not fight them. The Russians — our partners on ISS?? We depend on them to get our folks to our space station. North Korea — they are just trying to keep from starving.
Stealth is neat but is a solution in search of a problem.

WTF? Just sail a carrier to the region and smoke ‘em! Who needs the AF?

When the Country can can technologically with technological transferable stuff and make our GDP larger and better in the tradable market=GOOD. If this is self servicing and doesn’t expand our GDP capability, like supersonic commercial transport then find another efficient means. SDI or star wars techniques are still the way to handle things at close to light speed.

Im just dreaming here, but the YF-23 could be stretched a little longer, build it for 2, pilot and WSO, see im dreaming..

The USAF already rejected the FB-23, just as they did the FB-22.

Ah yes, the cost-effective Boner. When times are hard… : )

No, they chose the F-22. Im talking about NG’s F-23 “Black Widow” which was considered by many to be the better aircraft. An upgrade of the B1-B is more practical, buys us time too.

Wow good memory on that. Cheney “Mr. Sec Def” canceled it. What foresight he has had. He has the reverse “Midas Touch” Midas turned things to gold, while Cheney turns things into DOO DOO. Aside from that, he’s a great American…[?]

The Army and Marines who call in CAS from the Air Force everyday in the landlocked nation of Afghanistan.

The fact that according to this news, ‘not too much has been seen yet, with respect to the LRS-B’ is nothing but an absolute god send. The worst possible scenario would have been that something expensive ‘and whiz bang marketed’ was hot-sold 2–3 years ago and fast tracked in order to have spent so much money on it by now to not be able to politically back out on it. Enter head banging on wall smiley here.

Yet I could not call more, on DoD/USAF jets to be cooled on this Program today and give it very serious thought about what is truly required as part of a next-gen mix of long range strike (manned and unmanned), what would be reliable and most importantly… what would most likely be sustainable and affordable as part of this mix of Programs.

One should be thinking about what is most cost-effective, going forward, even if it means re-examining some of the less sexy options to include being innovative for at least part of the future mix and potentially upgrading or evolving at least 1 currently existing platform already in the USAF inventory. That and evaluating whether or not more investment in advanced capable stand-off munitions could offset some of the deterrence and capability value platforms typically would be perceived of representing. Simply, as buying power is increasingly reduced, typically less thought about, outside the box and unconventional solutions will need to be studied and implemented more than any time in the modern era.

And it’ll be cheap and easy like the F-35. And pilot-friendly like the F-22. And It’ll be produced rapidly because it’s an L-M product, and we won’t really have to discuss requirements for it because all of our current AF generals will be LM employees by then.
Which is the same time the Coast Guard will get its new Security cutter, with six 120-horse Evinrudes and a 500-foot roll of 10-inch duct tape. This will be really easy to do ten years after they get the same stuff for the LCS.

Ya wanna survivable IC bomber? Forget stealth and get hyper.

The C-27s would have been nice and a worthwhile alternative. The C-17s they just stopped making would have been nicer: we’ll need more of those. An F-22 that works safely now would also have been nice. And the F-35 may never work unless you use them only for groundbound simulators or large leaf blowers.

All interesting points but we are talking 2020’s. We can’t determine what is going to happen next year. If there is another bomber prgram, it may be space based. The X-37B has proven it can styay out in space fpr over a year and has no pilot. Time will tell, but think we have more urgent things we need to figure out. Like JSF that is a sink hole right now.

Your mother obviously raised a doofus…

What most posters on this forum fail to realize is that no one, except those that need to know, know what we have in inventory or what we have the capabilities to do right now. The USAF has numerous options and capabilities that may, or may not, have been seen thus far. The general wasn’t going to come right out and tell reporters, who get paid to tell everyone stories, exactly what he knows and he shouldn’t have done so if he was so inclined. This was a good story, although, the whole turth is yet to be observed when it is needed.
SECURITY is the thing here that has been overlooked by a lot of people in this forum. Be glad everyone is blind to what we truely have. It may be secreted for a reason. Just my two cents.….

Doctrine of “Mis-information” should prevail. Make it plausible. Spend more on R&D for Materials, and Propulsion remembering that the next fun and games must be faster and finished before we have to prove we don’t have the numbers we once had. Keep it as a DARPA dark hole project and hope the top level Administration can keep their lips shut. ‘Loose Lips Sink Ships!!

Wow, thinking like this is why the Federal govt is $17T in debt. Last time I checked, there are already 3 bombers that can fly a long range strike mission, including one that has full stealth capability and another with supersonic terrain following capability. Maybe instead of adding a 4th bomber to the fleet, perhaps consider infrastructure vulnerability within this country, and how the supply of everything we take for granted (water, food, gasoline, electric power, etc.) can be impacted by rogue nations. Oh wait, we can’t discuss something outside the official USAF operating paradigm. My bad.

Did Rockwell finally fix the B1 systems integration problem between the Loral EW pods and the Collins’ radar altimeter? We can’t afford flying anymore aircraft into Montana hills.

How about the wing deicing systems and those loose avionic cluster fasteners? Can’t help but remember how they tried to call me up (back in the 80s) to fix THOSE design errors for them too.

Would any of YOU drive 1600 miles to work for $10/hr with no per diem, travel pay or place to sleep to fix design errors created by highly paid corporate engineers — when they only promise a few weeks work? E3s get more than THAT! Alexander H is right — only it doesn’t take a ‘rogue nation’ to disrupt our essential systems — just one smart hacker with a laptop (Mitnick?)

I’m SICK OF IT! Tell those Tea Partiers to target the REAL CAUSE of our malaise — FW&A!

NO MORE throwing our tax dollars at politically connected contractors pushing weapons systems which don’t work as advertized or endanger the lives of the people expected to fix or field them — UNTIL the kinks are worked out by the designers themselves! (early M-16, M-247 Sgt. York DIVAD, M4 carbine, F16, B1, B2, Crusader SPG, F22, etc, etc)

While working as an R&D tech on DOD/NASA contracts I found SO many incidents of FW&A, which cost the taxpayers WAY over the estimated budget — but no one in official circles wanted to touch them! How many know the DOJ and NASA had the goods on the contractor in the Hubble Space Telescope fraud yet CHOSE to ignore eye-witness testimony which would’ve gotten them 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in fines?!

If this is any indicator of the rest of DOD/NASA contract enforcement fully 1/2 of our national debt could be due to FW&A while exposing our forces to needless risk in military ‘actions’ begun at the behest of those same ‘politically connected’!

The F-35 should never have been put into production. At the time this was done we already knew that i would cost at least $100,000,000. per copy and at only 75% of that price it was a bad deal when measured on designed performance against the F-22’s designed performance. We are now spending more on upgrades to generation 4 fighters than it would cost to build brand new F-22s that would have the capability to do the job, and which exceed their designed performance.

As for the new bomber, I believe that there was information at one time about a Northrup expansion of the F-23 into a slightly larger and much greater range bomber, and I believe that the F-23 was also stealthier than the F-22. Based upon the “black Ops” capability to build the F-117 and the A-11 and A-1 and the SR71 without anyone knowing, do we already have a next generation bomber.

Even if we don’t, we still have two very capable aircraft that can be launched from our Enterprise class carriers. Both the F-15 and F-22 have take-off runs of less than 1000 feet. Put arresting hooks on them and launch them with half a tank of fuel to the already airborne tankers and that problem is solved. It would also go a long way to solve the problem of a saturation attack on the fleet with air launched anti ship missiles.

My apologies for my typographic errors. The A-1 is supposed to be A-12

Well at one time Baghdad was the most heavily defended city in the world with integrated air defenses and the unproven F-117 flew though there with impunity.

Amen, TJ, Amen

And if they build them faster than the recent rate they will cost much less also.

And James, just how do you expect to stop the air launched anti ship missiles, of if the carrier is that close the surface launched anti ship missiles. You do understand that these things can be launched in the thousands, don’t you?

Unmanned bomber, I thought that was what we called ICBMs or Cruise missles.

Good point. What ever happend to those night hawks anyway. Although there was one sot down in Cosovo. Can they only be used at night.

Are we even sure about the F-22 it has seen any action yet. Know at least the F-15 has a proven track record. The F-15 does have a tale hook for emergency landings, but not sure it has a the capabilty to be catapult launched.

Many have posted astute comments, but one thing is certain, the cost overruns which the military (and no them alone) incurs, especially for it’s exceptionally large programs, are not only tied to the contractors and the military industrial complex, but there is a concerted effort by many senior leaders to build out these programs, for their advancement in rank. I’ve seen where a colonel started with a shop of 14 military and 20 civilians, to a conglomerate of 45 military and 200 contractors. It’s pathetic the way these programs grow and then there is incredible inbreeding as contractors move from one contract and company to another. By “creating” these larger programs, with the attendant budgeting and acquistion “category” of a program, they feather their promotional nest.

Just re-elect O’dumbo and we’ll be so EFF’in backwoods that it won’t matter. Under that squirrel we’ll be like the Weimar Republic and playing with blowup tanks and wooden guns.

The metric system is the standard in the U.S., it has been for over 100 years. The problem is, it is taught wrong in our schools and nobody outside of chem labs and medical will use it. Check NIST web site for info on standards.

Our bloated military spends more than the next 25 nations combined. Same old story that goes on and on, more dreams, more budget increases, more security for the next generation of military beuracrats; all the expense of the needs here in the real world where people strugle day to day. Make the military live within it’s budget (if there really is one),

1 B-52 exceeds the firepower of a carrier.

And the money is going to come from where??? The national healtcare cost will push us further in debt, a debt that the interest alone will demand more and more — without a spurt in GNP and tax revenues.…agaon, where is e money going to come from, we’ll do well to just keep those B-52s in the air. We’ll never be able to afford another stop gap like the B-1 or B-2, where we pay out billions for R&D then cut the production line because of cost overuns.

Seriously, I doubt we’ll see a full production run of the new tanker…we’re broke folks… And every retired 4 star pension keeps adding to the tab that we are paying on credit…

Well it almost doesn’t matter now.…if the weather stays as bad as its been (heaven help us next year), we’re going to be much more concerned about food than new tech weapons. It doesn’t matter if you are a supporter of climate change ot think it is all liberal propaganda, the results are still the same where it matters, those huge crops in America’s food basket baking in drought.

If there were any secrets related to LRS-B, the White House would’ve leaked ‘em by now ;-)

Not to mention the Chicom anti-ship version of the SA20

The need for great numbers of F-22’s and F-35’s is really not there. The F-15 line is still open and being built for our allies. A slightly upgraded version in large numbers can be built to replace the F-16’s and the older versions of the F-15 still in service with the Active Duty, Guard and Reserve units. Do not get me wrong the F-35 should still be built in lower numbers so that the technology in the industrial world can continue to develop.

What happened to the C-141s with dispensers to dispense Migit Minute Man Missles? A C-141 could carry a bunch of them, a simple cargo aircraft in which a rack is just pulled into its cargo bay and it is ready to go and it can fire right after it is airborne thousands of miles away. We have done a lot of R&D work that was done decades ago that could be refined and used today, already tested and paid for.

“Upgrade the F-23″ Really. Guess what, that is now 25 year old technology. No thanks.….….….

It is absolutely essential that we keep information such as this Top Secret. No one except those whose duties require it need to know about these operations. I have seen the damage done when military data is released to the public. That to me is a damn crime. How many times for example have our troops been killed because of their movements and other data being published by our media who has no concern over the security of our troops or our nation.

Maybe cut 150 F-35 from the USAF, with those funds we can by 100 fully funded SU-34 Fullbacks and adapt then to US avionics and weapons. Plus we would have money left over for the very neglected USAF golf course system.

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