Fleet Forces boss urges for a ‘back to basics’ Navy

Fleet Forces boss urges for a ‘back to basics’ Navy

In a farewell message to U.S. Fleet Forces Command, Adm. John C. Harvey urged a return to basics in manning, equipping and operating the surface Navy.

And a big part of that message appeared to be: Go back to running it like a military and not a corporation. It’s not the first time that someone told the Navy to quit trying to operate like a business, but it’s probably one of the strongest to come from a four-star, even one sailing into retirement.

“We shifted our primary focus away from sailors and ships – the fundamentals of surface warfare — to finding efficiencies/reducing costs in order to fund other important efforts such as recapitalization,” Harvey said in a Sept. 1 message to the fleet. “We took our eyes off the ball of the main thing for which we were responsible – maintaining the wholeness and operational effectiveness of the surface force.”


Harvey retired on Sept. 14 after a 39-year career. He was succeeded as commander of Fleet Forces by Adm. William Gortney.

In his final message – actually a 2,200-word email to surface warfare flag officers – Harvey offered a mea culpa as well as an assessment of where the Navy went off course.

“I realize how much more I could have done to fully evaluate the impact the actions I’ve described to you had on our surface force’s overall mission effectiveness,” he wrote.

As a flag officer, he said he focused too much on daily tasks and responsibilities without taking time to look at what effect his and other commanders’ decision were having on the Navy.

And when leadership did get together, he said it “did not get to the heart of the matter” – whether the Navy’s sailors and ships were collectively ready to carry out their missions.

“We could have done better,” he wrote. “You must do better, because now we know better.”

Harvey said he began working to put things right after being named commander of Fleet Forces three years ago. Working with Vice Adm. Kevin McCoy, commander of Naval Sea Systems Command, they began to clear out “a lot of the underbrush.”

But the work needs to continue, he said. The Navy must square greater focus on assigning the correct responsibilities to the accountable officers to ensure the Navy is “getting the full value of every readiness and maintenance dollar we spend.”

Harvey claims that responsibility for programs shifted from a single officer or office to be spread out among many. Decisions were made by committee. The Navy opted to toss overboard traditional rules on crew size and the kind of routine maintenance that had historically served the Navy so well.

The Navy has pushed for optimal manning on ships, with crews at about 90 percent of the lowest requirement. It borrowed from the “lean” or “just-in-time” logistics systems that have been widely adopted by corporations and adapted them in areas of maintenance.

Navy leaders believed the money saved in these efficiencies could be used to fund other programs. But those efficiencies never really materialized. Capabilities and assets deteriorated even as costs continued to rise to fund existing and new programs.

“When the assumptions behind the man, train, equip and maintain decisions did not prove valid, we didn’t revisit our decisions and adjust course as required,” he said. “In short, we didn’t routinely, rigorously and thoroughly evaluate the products of the plans we were executing.”

Remaining on that course caused the problems with the commissioning crews of the LPD-17s – the amphibious transport docks from which Marines deploy to shore – he said.

“We shifted maintenance ashore, scaled back our shipboard 3M [Maintenance and Material Management] program and reduced our preventive maintenance requirements to fit a smaller workforce, and then failed to fully fund the shore maintenance capacity we required,” he said.

Performance and reliability suffered. The ships increasingly failed critical material inspections done by the Board of Inspection and Survey, or INSURV, which Harvey called the “gold standard” for measuring ships and crews.

One place where the Navy has hurt itself is in manning. Leaders accepted ship crews that were 90 percent of the lowest requirement and simultaneously lost the necessary mix and experience of more seasoned sailors to train the younger ones.

As Harvey recounted events in his message, the problems began about a dozen years ago, as the Navy steamed ahead to introduce civilian, corporate-like efficiency programs.

Defense analyst Franklin “Chuck” Spinney said the Navy been hurting readiness with corporate processes for more than a generation.

Writing in May 2000, Spinney said the Navy already was in serious trouble.

“This deplorable state of affairs is the direct result of a conscious effort over the last six to eight years to make the logistics system more efficient as part of the ‘acquisition reform’ agenda,” he wrote.

These acquisition “deformers,” as Spinney called them, are attempting to lower operations’ costs by writing up budget plans “with assumptions based on predictions of future efficiencies.”

“That way they can transfer the ‘savings’ into modernization budgets in their futile effort to bail out the procurement accounts,” he wrote.

To Spinney, the Navy’s readiness problem was “a self-inflicted wound … brought about by rising costs, aging systems, and phony savings in the name of greater efficiency.”

“The admiral is trying to blame the problem on ‘just in time,’ when the real problem is increasing technological complexity of hardware and concomitant organizational structures to maintain that hardware,” Spinney wrote in an email.

The promise always asserts the higher acquisition costs of the new replacement weapon would be offset over the long term by lower operating costs thus resulting in lower life cycle costs, he said. The Pentagon began operating this way in the late 1960s, with the promised savings always increasing but never materializing, Spinney said.

He said the situation has only become “more extreme and outrageous over the years as the disconnect between the promises and reality have gotten worse.”

Join the Conversation

In the words of the proverb:

“Too soon old, too late smart.”

Never better exemplified than by this:

“[The Navy] borrowed from the ‘lean’ or ‘just-in-time’ logistics systems that have been widely adopted by corporations and adapted them in areas of maintenance.”

If you figure that a capable military is one that is robust against external perturbations, then implementing JIT is to be done only very carefully and in very small areas. With a wary eye to the potential downside risk.

We know from the civilian economy that JIT is brittle. The 1995 Kobe earthquake shattered JIT delivery chains all over Japan, and did disproportionate harm as a result. Large segments of the Japanese economy ground to a halt.

For earthquake damage, read “battle damage” in a Naval context.

In the early 2000s we tried something called “prime vendor” where a known vendor could get us something quickly (another name for JIT). The thought was we’d save on not having stock in warehouses. The flip side was every item we bought cost 25% more than normal because they were all rush deliveries.

I don’t know if I want to congratulate him for coming out and admitting the brass has been screwing up the Navy for so long, or piss on him for waiting until the day it’s no longer his problem to solve to say it.

Seems like a lot of officers are going through public confession at the moment. Between Bogdan’s comments about the F35 and now this. Nice to see at least some lip service paid to truth. Now if it would just translate into someone being un-dumb in DoD.

The downward spiral for maintenance and readiness started 20 years ago and has gotten progressively worse. It was only a matter of time before someone woke up. Fortunately there was no shooting war in the interim. Corporate polices and technology enhancements just cannot replace sailors on the deckplates. The policy of 90% of the minimum required manning was flawed from conception. With the coming budget cuts and high deployment levels it is doubtful that the policy will change, but at least now the cat is out of the bag.

I think a lot of it also has to do with the budget drying up as well.

Funny how once the Navy got into bed with the defense contractors, letting them design their ships instead of just building them, the whole thing went to hell. Harvey should be apologizing for looking the other way when all the kick-backs and bribes started happening, but he’s obviously not sorry enough to go to jail for his part in selling out his country.

Good idea but why did he wait until he was going out the door? It put the onus on the back of his replacement. The military is not like a business as some would have you believe. It has never made a profit. It’s good fodder for hiring more contractors to help put you in line with the current buzz words. Guess who the contractors happen to be?

good observation

Harvey was a major part of the problem for the last 12 years.

Just –In –Time —Promotion , Good-Time, Party-Time, On-Line Yes! Sir, My Wishes –at –Once , NAVY-Mine– to-Corporate-as-CEO, BUNOS-ORIENTED– NAVY. Please let me get out too, just-in-time.

JIT

The US Navy is in the business of defending our country and our interests, not competing with and/ or beating the US Army. Until “any Projections are Proven”, then and only then can we afford to reduce manpower and expenditures for the “Benefit” of cost savings (efficiency). The penalty for being wrong is not “going out of business” but a loss of our country’s place in the market of international trade. I believe once that is lost, it is an extremely monumental expense and effort to regain. Our country has too many competitors who would gladly take our market share. Defense, not efficiency is the art and the business of the Navy.

This article is focused on the Navy but, in my opinion, applies across the board in DoD.

Especially the part “The Navy must square greater focus on assigning the correct responsibilities to the accountable officers to ensure the Navy is “getting the full value of every readiness and maintenance dollar we spend.….Harvey claims that responsibility for programs shifted from a single officer or office to be spread out among many. Decisions were made by committee.”

So many processes have been put in place that no one is now actually responsible for anything. We are losing (or already lost) the “art” of leadership. Everyone is so scared of making a mistake because, even minor ones, are career killers. If you haven’t made any mistakes, you have done or learned anything eventually resulting in personnel being promoted to positions of authority (note, not responsibility) without the background to go with the position.

I am leaving the pulpit now.… :-)

I have been saying this for years. The higher ups get all excited over fully automated vessels, plug and play electronics and smaller crew, manning. Now we can’t maintain the vessel properly without going into the shipyard, we can’t fix the equipment at sea because our guys are trained to just replace components, rather than to diagnose and repair existing equipment, and the ops tempo is wearing out the smaller crews…(port and starboard watches, anyone?).… It doesn’t matter how much you automate the functions, it still takes the same amount of personnel to clean, maintain and preserve a 360 foot vessel. Perhaps, if some of these officers spent less time with the “cover our @ss” paperwork requirements and more time with a needle gun or paint scraper in their hands, they’d place priority on manpower, where it belongs. It is personnel who man, maintain and operate ships, submarines and aircraft.

In addition, the military is not a corporation. Corporate personnel have little risk in dying during their workday. They do not work in an inherently dangerous environment, be it wartime or peacetime. Being a chef in a New York restaurant is not as hazardous as being a Mess Management Specialist on a nuclear powered submarine. Being an administrative assistant in a Philadelphia office building is not as hazardous as being a Yeoman on an aircraft carrier with armed fighter jets slamming violently into the flight deck above your head. Being a plumber is not as dangerous as being a Hull Technician on a warship surrounded by weapons magazines and weapons launchers.

They also aren’t tied to their profession 24/7/365 for 4 to 6 years. They generally get to go home after work every night as opposed to being rudely awakened from a sleeping bag in the field, or a coffin sized rack onboard ship, when people start shooting at you or you have a shipboard casualty. When you take the above into account you recognize that corporate pay is better that the average ENLISTED servicemember.

If a servicemember reenlists, he’s not doing it for the money. They don’t pay enough for the hazards and the sacrifices in living conditions, time with family and sometimes the loss of life to “defend and protect the Constitution of the United States” the most ethereal of reasons…the ideals which define this country. A majority of them reenlist because they believe in something greater than themselves.

In claiming the military is a corporation and should be funded and run as such has marginalized the above facts and sacrifice in order to justify both government and higher ups in the Pentagon to attack and whittle away at military benefits every time a budget battle starts. Yes, pay has increased during the last decade but benefits such as Tricare and retirement pensions are threatened. Those benefits may not matter much to a Captain or Admiral who retires and goes on to a cushy consultant job for a defense contractor, but to the average enlisted person it matters a lot.

It is time all of us started recognizing the Navy and the military in general for the unique entity it is and stop trying to compare it and run it like a business. And, in doing that, start redirecting funding and resources back to where they belong. Training and retaining good personnel and moving back to the basics.

Corporation stopped stocking merchandise as soon as 1929, where overstock was one of the big factors of the crisis.

If that admiral had balls he would have said this during his career and tried to make changes himself. Instead, he did what all climbers do and wait until he can suffer no repercussions. Way to be a Monday morning quarterback Admiral.

Folks, as a non-military citizen, I’ve been reading the criticisms up above, and I fear they’re a bit misplaced. I would not argue that the concept of running the Navy “like a business” is at fault as much as incorrectly running your business is.

If you lose sight of your core mission and competencies and focus on the minutiae of day to day things, you’re running your business wrong. Leadership must remain strategic; day to day is what the underlings are for… (continued…)

… Cont’d
If you’re spending time worrying about recapitalization and efficiencies at the cost of spending the proper amount of focus on your core mission and competencies, then you’re running your business wrong. Businesses with call centers that tried to replace those functions with scripted non-professionals have discovered the hard way that the book efficiency achieved cannot be at the expense of losing a level of core competency. Yet the smart, agile businesses recognized that and readjusted. Dealing with capital costs and finding ways to increase efficiencies is a vital, necessary thing, so it should never be ignored, but again, if you do it at the expense of who you are and what you do, you’re doing it wrong.

If you did not assign proper accountability for functions to the proper authorities within the organization, then you are running your business wrong. (Cont’d…)

… cont’d
If you are making decisions by committe, you are running your business wrong. Authority always rests with the manager, boss, COO, CEO (organize the hierarchy whichever way you want). You MUST confer with the affected parties, and you are foolish to not listen to them, so you cannot make the equal but opposite mistake of being the King and Dictator of the organization… but at the same time, you cannot let the decisionmaking be too distributed. Any final decision on vital strategic matters must always be made by the person in charge. If your hierarchy does not identify who’s in charge, then the hierarchy is malformed and must be corrrected.

If you do not “revisit (your) decisions and adjust course as required”, then you are running your business wrong. It is not a successful business practice to charge full ahead and ignore mistakes; only companies that get bailed out (like the auto manufacturers) or companies with massive capital assets (like Blackberry’s parent company RIM) can survive such an act; all others Darwin themselves out of existence. Doing this is running your business wrong. (Cont’d…)

… cont’d
There’s more, but my point is that I fear that many comments here attribute Navy failures to the fact that the Navy tried to run itself like a business. I fear that this misidentifies the fault. Running like a business should not per se lead to the sort of failures being described here; it’s “Running Your Business Wrong” that does. I would hope that, just as the business world has TONS it can learn from the military, that the military can identify which successful aspects of business operations can be correctly and properly applied to themselves. All I ask is that commenters do not automatically discount applying busness concepts to military operations. Yes, many will not fit, but the errors above are not those sorts. They’re simply failures to apply the concepts properly.

We need more Admirals. At least one per surface ship. Oh, already have that many.

Contact him at his future corporate/consultation gig.

Where have all the Destroyer Tenders gone. If you out and about, deployed, ask these questions: do you have a machinist aboard that can cut wearing ring, machine a new coupling, reseat a HP valve, rebuild a bearing support for a radar, or machine a whole new shaft for a fresh water drain pump o0n distilling plant. If not you were not one of my deployments on a DDG. Another question how many of today’s sailors can even if most of their gear. MMCS(SS)(SW) USN Retired

Adm Harvey.…are you by chance suggesting the NAVY get back to basics, even removing all of the HIGH TECH Weaponry??? Is this telling us that Our recruits are unable to progress into the 21st Century, and all of the DUMBING DOWN of Our educational systems have caught up with us finally??? What are the BASICS Admiral as you actually see it/? “Clarity” is needed I’m sorry to say.…..

Slider: “Goose who’s butt did you kiss to get in here anyway?“
Goose: “The list is long, but distinguished.”

Seriously, while the Admiral is making some effective points, it’s still not an ‘either or’ proposition and as black and white as he’s apparently simplifying the situation in the above quotes. It’s very complex and arguably requires a continuously adapting ‘balance’. Absolutely… when implemented reforms and changes in policy are just not effective, then modify them and seek to enhance them, even at cost if that’s what’s necessary to ensure the mission.

But also crucial one could think, is that USN command absolutely needs to be diligent in pursuing and exercising ‘efficiencies’ in the modern age, as she did in the past? Moreover, USN needs to place PRUDENT recapitalization strategies and requirements (eg, new surface combat ships requiring fewer crews) at the top of the list in order to sustain continuous readiness and capabilities. So I’d have to beg to differ with that emphasis of somehow downplaying the need for being efficient in operation and to also downplay required, prudent recapitalization, if that’s what he was implying. It should be about adapting and seeking to achieve the right balance!

Other than that, of course… The admiral is correct in insisting to “get the full value of every readiness and maintenance dollar we spend.”

We don’t need more Admirals, we need more Commodore’s and bring back the Commodore rank for Senior Captains who are not ready for Rear Admiral but need more time as a Commodore before Rear Admiral. Having too many admirals would create a glut and too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

Amen! The Navy( and for that matter, the entire U.S. Government) is not a business, simply because there’s no profit motive. For us, the profit is in the results…when we win battles and wars.

Ok Adm Harvey, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have good intentions on speaking the truth after you retire

But I say the admiralty needs to adapt a “Conduct becoming of a flag officer” pledge

It would go as follows
As an admiral of the great United States Navy I hereby swear to
–always lead by example
–to always tell the truth no matter the consequences or risk to my career
–to lead from the front, I will put myself in harm’s way just like I ask my sailors and marines to do
–never put politics ahead of sound military decisions
–always put our sailors and marines first
–I will never assume that I know best simply because I wear a star(s)
–if I need to relieve any commanders in my command for cause I will publicly admit that I too displayed a lack of leadership and I will personally apologize for my failure to the crew, ship, boat, command, or squadron and I will personally take temporary command until a replacement is found
–to do everything in my power to maintain the readiness of the fleet and our forces
–and I pledge to not work in the defense industry, paid or unpaid, in any form or fashion, for a period of 7 years after my retirement
On these point I swear so help me God.

Well put torquewrench!

Big-Dean has the right idea. Before any man or woman is sworn in as an admiral or general they also need to swear that they will lay out all the issues and problems and tackles them from an engineering approach and not a political one. And the first time they don’t they forfeit their star.

But in out advanced technology world, we really need to break down the officer-enlisted roles. Like the Spartans, leaders need to lead by example, not just command others to do things. For example, every admiral and general must live in the worst quarters on the base. Must eat the same food as the enlisted; no officers mess. Not benefit by through “math”; a 2% increase in pay and benefits for an officer is disproportionate to 2% for an enlisted person. (Raise the pay at the bottom; freeze it for 5 years at the top.)

But we also need fewer admirals and generals. About half less will do.

One of the many fundamental problems has been disconnects between responsibility, authority, and fund control. (one reference to this is “colors of money”)
Another one is implementing “just in time” from a stand point of reducing standing inventory, and then using the same old time consuming procurement practices. (one to two years delay in recognizing the actual usage, and then another one to two more years to get a contract out the door to buy replacements.)
Long lead times and small production quantities are other ones.
Order 10,000 at $1 ea, or 20 at $50ea when you actually need 100 each year. Often, it’s not the actual cost for the hardware, it’s the cost of the mountain of paperwork and limited funding.

He is not talking about dropping the high tech weapons. He is saying that the Navy must operate as a Navy, not a corporation. That is the basics he reefers to.

Huh, maybe AF leadership should read ” Go back to running it like a military and not a corporation.” What a novel idea. Focus on fixing and flying jets instead of someone having a 40 inch waist. The US military is not the force it used to be and we will pay dearly for our lack of foresight and poor leadership eschelon. Poor decisions made at the top affects everyone all the way down to the E-1. Its shows in the quality of people we allow into the service, to aquisitions, to poor quality equipment dumped on us by shady, subhuman defense contractors. And due to the fact that we are not a corporation, all this PC crap has to stop. It IS a global war, not a “contingincy (spelling?) operation” as our current leader wants to call it just to pacify the muzzies. ITS A GOD DAMN WAR!!! Call it what it is. We are not supposed to pander to anyone or cater to another countries sensitivities. We are a war machine, nothing else. We kill people and destroy stuff. We need to stop tip toing through the daisies and get back to what we are supposed to be doing as what is supposed to be the most powerful military in history!

The US Navy (and other service branches) have preparing for the war they want to fight instead of the wars we are likely to fight. They completely ignored mine warfare, and when they finally started to consider the littorals (as opposed to blue water) the best they could do was the LCS (considered by many: too lightly armed and no ability for long range attack, hardly capable of taking a hit, and short legs). Other nations have come up with similar designs that seem to be far more capable for far less money.

The USGC National Security Cutter classes are superior sea frames, cost less, have longer legs, can be easily up-armored, and carry a larger variety of weapons. The added bonus would be shared hulls and lower costs, which would only enhance inter-service compatibility.

The acquisition system is a disaster (all services) and needs to be extirpated and reorganized. The USA, arguably, gets the lousiest deal for the taxpayer dollar on the planet. The general staff (and admiralty) are bloated beyond belief, and the revolving door between weapons program managers and the defense industry does this nation and its taxpayers a disservice and provides a blatantly corrupting influence.

Yeah, that’s the only case, if you can’t see the forest for the trees. The 600 ship navy that cost less and did more in the 1980 can figure out how to keep less than 300 little crappy ships floating today, but there’s only one type of ship that’s a problem. Must be a wonderful world.

your right, the LCS wouldn’t last 5 minutes in a fight,
the National Security Cutter, while not perfect, would be 1000% better than any aluminum foil, flimsy, fragile, no weapon LCS

The National Security Cutter can be up armed easily with Harpoon, ESSM, 5 in gun, (2) 25mm auto mounts, Phalanx and it can have Kevlar armor added to vital spaces without suffering too much weight penalty.

We’ll also need to up grade the electronics, air search radar, etc., and add a sonar tail and a ASW helo with a couple of drones added for recon. Adding a sonar dome would probably be too difficulty since the ship was not designed with one.

So in the end we’ll have a true ocean going light Frigate with real capabilities, long range, endurance, necessary speed, offensive and defensive weapons, and the ability to cruise and prosecute the enemy independently.

Your right. The NSC is far better than the LCS and if the US Navy went with the NSC than the LCS. The US Navy would have had a true Multi-role Frigate with littoral capabilities. The NSC can be up armed on the cheap and with current off the Shelf inventory including Harpoon, ESSM in quadpack, 5 in gun, (2) 25mm auto mounts, Phalanx, Torpedoes and towed array sonar. On top of that the NSC could possibly have room for STANFLEX as well.

I thought “decisions being made by committee” was a good thing? Now it’s not? Now there’s someone who needs re-educating.

I don’t think that mark on. I agree the LCS came out way it was suppose to be. Ship almost designed by committee, verse needs what it was suppose to doing. Patroling the Coast line and being handle itself on low-threat fights, now its being billed try fill in for the Frigate.

I do not agree that the USGC National Security Cutter’s Multi-Function Patrol Frigate version could fill in. The design had numerous problems and cost the USCG billions. I support American built products, but i think something bit more relayable to replace LSC is in order. Using MEKO family designs (like Aussie’s Meko 200 variant) which shown to be built as a Warship. Not a design built on commerical standards not meant to deal with surviving in combat.

I had no idea Emanuel Bronner posted on this site.

Where you are correct the NCS had its problems — many of them resulted from the USCG being completely out of practice w/r/t ship building & acquisition. Industry sources have since indicated that these problems have been ironed out, resulting in a very useful sea frame (presumably, because they started with a strong foundation to begin with).

The LCS isn’t built to take any serious punishment, and in its current configuration isn’t designed to deliver any punishment either (even with additional weapons packages), especially at long range.

Nicky, perhaps you are not familiar with the Navy’s rank structure. The Navy used to have two types of Commodores. One was a one star admiral and the other was in charge of a squadron of ships.

The one star admiral rank has changed names several times but it is a name change only. The one star rank is currently called Rear Admiral (Lower) or RDML but it really does still exist as it has for many years now..

The position or job as Commodore of a squadron of ships still exists and is seen in Destroyer, Amphibious and Submarine Squadrons. The Commodore of a Squadron such as I listed is a Captain job known as a “Major Command”. There are certain large ships that are also Major Commands and command of one of them is considered equivalent to a Squadron Commodore position.

Did you ever serve? If so in what rank? Have you ever been in command and then tried to eat/socialize with your men? If so, you’d know why there were seperate quarters and messes.

By the way, in the US Navy, the crew and officers eat the same food, just in different places.

As for your “great” idea about how to apportion raises, please tell me any other organization where the exact dollar raise to the lowest paid member dictates the raise for the highest paid who might have 30 or 40 years in service.

Those of us in the surface navy in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s knew that very well especially in the FFG-7 class ships and their minimum manning concept. It was difficult to keep the maintenance up in the engineering department on the active ships but when you went to the reserve ships of that class it was almost impossible without working 7 days a week whether in port or at sea. The overly long hours with little time to spend with your family was a major part of my decision to end my career at 14 years. At least now it appears that the flag level has noticed what we knew back then. Just the thoughts of an old GSMC(SW)

Stop spending money on expensive weapons systems that the Navy does not need in order to stop corruption between defense contractors and the brass. Spend your money on personnel! That’ s your biggest assets!

Come back, come back to the pulpit. Maybe this is why we are seeing so many Naval commanders being relieved of commands. There is a difference between authority and responsibility.

Thank you chief. Somehow I can’t immagine just in time inventory on a deployment. What happens when something goes blooey at zero-dark-thirty and that spare part — well it was statistically unlikely to fail so you don’t have it. We saved a nickle by reducing inventory carrying cost but now it’s going to cost you, and those who are depending on you. It’s not a business and UPS doesn’t deliver to places you can’t talk about.

We seem to have forgotten Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution of the United States Of America; to wit: The Congress shall have power To provide and maintain a Navy. I don’t think “just in time” inventory comports with that mandate. Nor does the idea of manning to 90% of the minimum requirement. What is the reality of these ideas, where can that reality come from? When did minimum requirement stop meaning minimum; period. In times of the violent application of diplomacy “just in time” is more likely to mean “just to late”. That would bring a heavy cost to the failure of not following the Constitution in its simple mandate — to provide and maintain a Navy.

Aye Aye Sir better late than never we let our future foes grow stronger while we nit picked our Navy to death.
God bless you Sir. I don’t know the correct saying so I do it my way. “May the wind be always be at your back your sails be full your ship heading to open water a mug of coffee in hand a smile on your face as you see the aft of a Marine a click ahead of you. Good luck the Navy will miss you the Marines will smile upon you. And above keep your brass polished like the old Gunny said Shine like a diamond in a goats ass.
Your next thought though should be run for senator you make a good one the GOP needs you.

From a Marien Semper Fi

For many years I have been saying what many have said. We have lost our capability and ability to steam a ship for months on end without having to bring some out side group on board to repair something that is broke. The navy has spent more time concentrating on little league, early morning runs, computer generated items. You got it I am from the old school. If I had equipment down that I and my people could fix we fixed it. On one deployment we ran out of shafts for our 50 ft motor launches, we manufactured some in the macine shop from round stock. I could fill page after page during my 22 plus years in the Navy of things that were repaired underway by the crew of real working sailors. It is a shame the Navy has taken the attitude that if it breaks we will call in outside help to fix it. Not too long ago I ask an individual who did the ship’s force work package, the reply was the Industrial activity. It is no wonder we spend so much on keeping the ship operational. We have a Navy full of operators but very few mantianers. Maybe things will change with new leadership.

Perhaps the Navy should also take a hard look at the current policy of firing the skipper for any real or perceived error in their unit. This environment has commanders so concerned with not getting fired that they have lost focus as warriors. It doesn’t take much common sense to realize that if you are going to keep an attack dog in your house, that every so often it will poop on the rug.

As a retired USN SCPO, (1960s –1980s) I have always said,and will continue to do so, that the CINC MUST be prior military as a requirement for office. To have a CinC in the White House who doesn’t even know that a USN Corpsman is not a “Corpse“man says it all ! It is now run as a politically correct quasi –civilian business with the civilian mandarins / bean counters hands on the controls..Too many senior CO’s (particularly NAVY) are now being relieved for “loss of command confidence” ! Is it now a popularity contest to stay in a Command position. ? I find it extremely hard to believe that it is “command” confidence ‚more like the political confidence in that speaking out/disagreeing with the PC guidelines issued from the White House is the driving force.The Armed Forces are becoming a laughing stock because of political correctness. The military is NOT a democratic society,and shouldn’t be,but those who’ve never served are hell bent to make it so. I despair what is happening in the USA at large,but especially the military,because without it,the country’s security is at risk.

I will not apologize for being negative about Mister Obama, and his threats to our Military.
My previous post was DELETED because I stated Honest, True facts.

He was right on the mark, but was prevented from making such remarks PRIOR to his leaving active duty. This is why the OBAMA/DEMOCRAT machine in Washington is so successful in controlling the Pentagon. They can prevent everyone in Uniform from speaking, or using their Constitutional freedoms by hanging the threats around their neck…SHUT UP, OR YOUR GONE.

The U.S. Navy is here for one reason and that is to Blow S*** up in defense of our nation. It is not a business and should not be treated as such. I have served in the U.S. Navy and have first hand wittnessed the Business like manner that it is ran. Before I get into that let me tell you I am no rocket scentist but I do have really good common since. I think what the Adm was trying to say was he has seen the problem for along time and did what many of his fellow or jounior offercers did, NOTHING to stop it or prevent it and only whined about it at his retierment speech. Did he say anything about good serving sailors with families who got a phone call and said (sorry) your out in a month due to PTS (GO HOME). OH WAIT HE WALK WITH HIS RETIERMENT. While most of our Navy know how was thrown out on the street and our Navy’s Fleet and and airpower was left holding it’s hand out asking for change to try to get there job done before they run out of gas money

“now we can’t maintain the vessel without going to the shipyard”…is this not what CONTRACTORS are really up to?..More money for them to work on these “vessels” that is why “they” design the Navy ships and placed sophisticated gadgets into them so that “90% minimum required manning” can be made…and more work and money for the contractors once the vessel is in the yard.….

I thought somebody commented that “if you haven’t done or learned anything eventually resulting in personnel promoted to position of authority, not responsibility without the background to go with the position”…Don Meadows..a few comments up…

Sorry MMCS (Ret).…The Navy do not have dogs in the Congress to lobby..CONTRACTORS do…Without Tenders and Tender Lovers..they get the bulk of the job once the “vessels” are in the shipyard or on the pier for maintenance…the “vessels” are now full of automation..meaning “90% less minimum” crew.…I love the old Navy tough…

I’m sorry, but my spin on all this is that it’s Congress, not DoD, that’s screwing up. They are buying votes with jobs building weapons systems that cost an arm and a leg, but the DoD does not want. So we pump more and more money into useless systems (e.g., what’s the threat we use the F22 to counter) while allies, Ambassadors, and citizens are being slaughtered by a few radicals using Molotov Cocktails, the weapon of the 21st century.

So we get the F22 and more allies in Afghanistan are knocked off by a few hundred Taliban dressed like allied military because we don’t have enough trained personnel who have studied the Afghan culture and who can speak the language. C’mon folks, this war, which has been ongoing since RFK was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan, a Muslim terrorist, is about asymmetrical forces, not dog fights in the air.

Couple points: First, service members haven’t been allowed to publicly speak ill of the President pretty much since the days of Washington. Second, he can say “the Navy has issues” without saying any disparaging remarks about his superiors. In fact he did just that. He was still on active duty when he sent out that memo which could be summarized as “The Navy has problems, and we the Admirals failed you.”

In the 60’s and 70’s covering most of my service we had pretty clear missions; Cold War Viet Nam (brown water and blue water) and reasonably predictable deployment schedules with 1000 ships to cover the commitments. Today the missions are much more diffuse and more difficult to define. We now build ships we can’t rearm at sea and the weapons they carry may be wrong for the missions assigned.We attempt to solve this problem with ever more complex, larger ships. A 9000 ton destroyer is an oxymoron.. And now we’re manning these floating computers with 90% of the required crew? I fear for the future of our navy. Perhaps I’m fighting the last war but being able to fight that one is better than not being able to fight at all.

Rumsfeld’s influence unfortunately.
As a Human Resources consultant who began my career in corporate information technology, I have seen corporate America make the same mistakes. Corporations ‘buy” the efficiencies of technology (technology replaced people) when in fact, more technology creates more complexity which necessitates more tech support. Smart corporations have adopted the TCO –total cost of ownership model of technology and hopefully the Navy can learn the good corporate lessons and not be bamboozled by the ‘Rumsfeld doctrine of high tech (low personnel) readiness.

I believe his comments merit a business case study.

Adm Harvey started trying to fix the Navy when he became FFC. He realized the CBT don’t work and worked to change them. He realized that taking away the RMC’s was a bad decision and he changed that. No you can’t run the Navy like a corporation but we can change, if Washington changes and funds us better. But if current leaders prevail we will get a 10 military budget cut next year so it won’t get better in the near future. With better funding we can ramp back up the manpower, the parts and training.
Having once served under JC when he was a commander and CO, he empowered the chiefs mess and the enlisted, he used to say “got an idea and solution to a problem let’s hear it” The enlisted are the backbone of the Navy and the enlisted MUST lead the way. Chiefs must get back to being chiefs and not division officers; teach your junior enlisted not just the training topics but everyday maintenance. Officers quit trying to invent 17 new training programs; the fleet can’t take more useless training! 9 month deployments and then to come home to train, train, train doesn’t work! Get back to basics, Refresher training and then workups and deploy. Money for maintenance and parts, Officers let your people work on the gear, that’s the only way they learn how it works. For the most part leave Plug and Play to the Air Force, we need techs that can fix gear or think out of the box on how to repair the ship after a battle hit.
This isn’t just an ADM Harvey issue, it a Navy leadership issue that must be solved from the top down.

Now that the Admiral has admitted that some mistakes were made, does that mean that those GOOD Sailors separated by ERB will get the call to suit up and come back? One of the biggest failures of leadership I witnessed (probably THE biggest) was the ERB and the process by which it was carried out. Leadership can say publicly that no Sailors of the Year were separated, or no Sailors were separated that had adverse information in their records greater than 5 years before the board convened, but I can tell you first hand that is simply not true. Sailors will do anything you tell them to do, but it is critical that leadership is honest in their dealings with subordinates. Hearing the “company line” gets old, and the Navy will pay for this in manning shortages when the economy turns around (we’re already seeing signs that it is).

Leaders, we expect our Sailors to live by the core values of Honor, Courage, and Commitment. It’s time that senior Enlisted and Officer leadership live up to that same code.

Senior, the Navy has been going this direction for many years before the current CinC was elected. Also, if you know the reasons that some CO’s have been relieved, you would know that it has nothing to do with the White House or being PC. If you are the CO, you cannot get shI#-faced drunk and molest female crewmembers (true story.…he’s now doing time at Miramar), nor can you have relationships with junior (enlisted) females in your charge, nor can you get drunk and beat up junior Officers in public, nor can you brandish a handgun at crewmembers, or threaten to “fu$%#ing kill” a fellow officer. I understand that a segment of the population does not care for the President, but to put the blame on him is misguided. Oh, and plenty of CO/XO/CMC’s were relieved when Pres. Bush was in office, so this isn’t a “democrat” thing.

I spent 30 years on active duty and retired a couple of months ago. I can tell you first hand that the military is NOT a laughing stock. If you sit idly by and listen to somebody spewing that BS, you are just as culpable. Times have changed Senior. Times have changed in small towns, big cities, corporations, colleges, retail establishments, the world, and lastly, the military. If you despair at what’s happening in the U. S., take your monthly retainer and move somewhere else.

The military is not going out of business. We are staffed with smarter people than when you and I joined. We are staffed with young men and women that are eager to serve, whether out of patriotism or a desire to learn a skill or get money for college. Recruiters have more people that want to join than they can take in many recruiting districts. The country’s security has been at risk, and we’ve paid the price in human lives. But for the last decade, the men and women of the armed forces have suited up to go fight an enemy thousands of miles from home. Many that are now in uniform were only 7 or 8 years old when 9–11 happened and have grown up with war. Yet, they still have joined.

Lastly, if you want a former military man in the White House, you’ll have to rally the troops and get Ron Paul in there. Of the 2012 field of those running for the GOP side, he is the only one that has military service.

I saw this coming twenty years ago when Brooda became CNO and the emphasis was on education not deck plate sailors, more time was spent in the classroom than on 3M and the material condition of the fleet slowly degraded to what it is today, this is a direct reflection of why so many co’s/x0’s and Command M/C’s are getting relieved. In the “old Navy” ships went to sea manned at close to 100%, I was told one of the carriers set out for WestPac at 80% manning-how are you going to keep up with ops and 3M, you know ops wins so 3M suffers-gundecking and the eventually failing the INSURV and I could go on and on, but it is good that someone finally put the bell on the cats neck-now only if the CNO will act on it.

We also should “Civilianise” the above and require it of our Senators and Congressmen. Then again it is difficult to teach a politician anything, other than lying and cheating.

Right in all your comments. It was great to see Admiral Harvey comment on the plight of corporate style ways of running the military, even though he had to wait until it was time to retire before he said it. The bean-counters in government and other businesses have ruined much of the old ways of running things. Military service members, as shipmate Collins has noted, “reenlist because they believe in something greater than themselves” and our military must back them up in every way.

Sure wish all of the active duty military flag officers would step up and take a public, non-political stand on the status of the force. From the outside looking in, the current track is decimating readiness. It will take years to rebuild. Or, maybe the flag officers think that this is acceptable? That is not a view I share. A green force is not a current fiscal reality, maybe it will be in 20–30 years, but right now we are wasting dollars that could be better spent.

That’s not fair to ADM Harvey. He has been the first Fleet Forces CDR who recognized this problem long before he took the job and from his first day in office has worked to fix it. It has nothing — NOTHING — to do with national politics and everything to do with trying to overcome fifteen years of massive organizational momentum in the wrong direction and then inertia when he finally started it going in the other direction. He has never “been prevented” from making remarks and within the active duty surface navy (of which I am but one of many Captains), ADM Harvey has been a breath of fresh, common sense air for his entire term as CFFC. He has listened to department heads, chiefs, petty officers, junior officers, captains, and combatant commanders and taken positive steps throughout his tour to reverse this problem. He drafted retired admirals and chiefs who shared his view and had them conduct independent assessments to influence the rest of the Navy and the budgeteers in order to help make his case. This isn’t a new realization on his part or a parting shot as he retires. It is a charge to the rest of Navy leadership to keep his reforms going.

Hear Hear! As another Surface Warfare Officer, I have spoken with ADM Harvey and read much that he has sent out within the lifelines of the Surface Navy. He has long been concerned about the direction of the Surface Navy and has done much to try to reverse the negative trends. In a different vein, he personally reached out and changed the people and procedures involved in bringing back Navy personnel who were on Individual Augmentation tours with the Army in the Middle East and corrected the slow and slipshod way in which they were being treated. I was fortunate enough to be part of a private social network where ADM Harvey participates and saw the problem and then got to see the results.

Fair Winds and Following Seas to a LEADER to “Got it”

“And a big part of that message appeared to be: Go back to running it like a military and not a corporation.“____________________________________________________________This should also apply to the Air Force. Both branches think they are apert of DoT and not DoD.….I say put them under FEMA, and let the Coast Guard run them.

This is the Military, not a construction company. Enough said.

I suggest you check the Constitution — military service is NOT a requirement for presidential eligibility. If you want it to be, you’re going to have to do more than root for Ron Paul — you’re going to have to amend the Constitution. Do you think you’re wiser than the founding fathers? There’s a reason they didn’t make military service a requirement for president. There’s also a reason they specifically did NOT provide for a standing army. You might want to read some history, take into account the founders’ intentions and reconsider your proposal.

Another thing we have apparently forgotten: The civilians in DoD give Navy the money and personnel (m/p) to play with and the officers in the service divvy up the m/p according to how loud/vociferous their staffs can be. Note that the staffs are largely GS18-GS15 and have held DoD jobs since Day 1. And it is those civilian staffers (starting with SECDEF) who volunteer to accept a Budget Cut of 5+ percent of next years $‘s so they can be seen as ‘players’ within the current administration. So who is it that accepts the 90% manning? My point is that the Admiral probably made his feelings known ‘up the line’ during his tours, even if he was just ‘pissing in the wind’. It all starts with the U.S. Budget created by Congress and their civilian staffers. Ladies and gentlemen you had better get out and vote. Seriously, I hear we are heading for a Navy such as we have not seen, one that is akin to pre-WWII. Try that in your 90% manning furor. Would you guess 35% and with ships to match the cuts in personnel.

Hell it be even better if a MCPON had th eballs to say it vice worrying about how they look in a picture on their FB page. However the CMC program is strictly a political chess game now for all the lap dogs..

To those that can — please fix it.
Be smart. Not political. You know what needs to be done.
Let us know how we can help.

I agree with almost every comment posted on this issue regarding: top heavy personnel (O-7 above), cutting manning in the enlisted ranks, worrying more about “Evals./FitReps.,” politics in every thought and decision and trying to run the Navy as a “Corporation.” As a retired YNCS with 27 years of Active and Reserve time and having a degree and experience in Business, it is not a bad thing to keep abreast of corporations’ successes and failures. However, their ideas and outcomes must absolutely be reviewed very carefully, honed and configured to the mission of the U. S. Navy to have it be an efficient and effective operation. WE SHOULD NOT and CANNOT EVER forego the primary component of the U.S. Navy–Personnel and their safety, and protecting this country and the people to which we take an oath to protect and defend.

The old saying about one walking in someone else’s shoes should be an integral part of the chain of command regarding the tasks aboard any of our vessels. A person will have a greater appreciation and understanding of the will and work if he/she has done it–even if only for a short period of time. Respect has always been a requirement of the military going up the chain of command, but it must also go from the top DOWN the chain of command. My final note is that I have read about numerous investigations and/or firings of CO’s, XO’s, CMC’s, etc. over the last couple of years and been disgusted and disheartened. Almost all of them were sexual issues either with or without consent of the other person, i.e. harassment and rape. If everyone kept their focus on the “Mission” and not looking how to get primitive needs met inappropriately, the U.S. Navy would again be a force to be reckoned with. If it is accepted that “Boys will be boys,” then those boys” do not belong in the U.S. Navy. We are supposed to only recruit and retain “Men and Women” to serve and defend, so let’s do a better job of screening at all levels: the beginning, the middle and the end of someone’s Navy career. We need to enforce “The punishment should fit the crime.” Someone being asked to retire is not “fitting the crime” no matter how high the rank or years of service. Maybe the show “Law and Order“‘s principles should be adopted by the Navy ASAP! (Just for the record, I am not a victim.)

“Fixing and flying jets” and being fit (i. e., NOT having a 40-inch waist…) are not mutually exclusive concepts. As you said, “ITS (sic) A GOD DAMN WAR,” and we need to be fit to fight it.

Ah, yes; Congress…

I read some where the only way America will be destroyed will be from with in and by God you can see that happening. Our leadership are just as GREEDE as most of our senators and congresmen and corporations that have bought them. To bad our citizens keep electing them who dont care for our country and our brave troops who are being miss used for corporate interest.

Its easy to see the Navy wants there new Carriers but don’t want to pay 5,000 dollars for a Admirals toilet. The Contractors want to make a profit to stay in business and cant give the Navy a Aircraft Carrier for free. There has to be a balance there. The contrator needs to make a profit but not an over charge and the Government cant be a cheap skate and want something for free. If the Navy does not like it then train the people at Puget Sound Naval shipyard to build carriers. They got a dry dock big enough and have scrapped nuclear submarines and cruisers so know the nuclear side of the job involving the reactors. Or reopen hunters Point in Mare Island. That way all they have to do is pay hourly wages and for building the ship and of course the companys for the materials and fittings. They are paying the ship yard workers anyway and maintaining the shipyards for maintaining of the fleet. Why don’t they build the fleet as well? They did in WW2.
My idea would be to open back up Hunters point in Mare Island for fleet maintenance and drydocking and convert PSNS in Bremerton to ship building. Most all the CVE’s in WW2 were built in Bremerton or Seattle. (TODD Ship yard) So they know how to build ships. They got 6 dry docks. (Was stationed there before on Nimitz)They can build the Ford class Carriers and other ships of the fleet with those dry docks with a little refresher training. They got some of the best ship yard workers I have ever seen. They can move Stennis to Everett NB or Mare Island.

To all the arm chair quarterbacks, ADM Harvey is one of the finest, most straight talking leaders I have ever served with. Confident that if you ask any sailor who has ever had the honor of serving with him that they would all agree that he has never had anything but his sailor’s and Navy’s best interests at heart. Fair winds and following seas sir.

It’s ALWAYS the senior NCO & O-1s to O-5s — sailors, soldiers, airmen, Marines and Coasties who lead innovation during the bad times, paying the price in toil and blood, and overcoming the terrain, weather, wrong equipment and the enemy to prevail in our Nation’s hours of need. The greatest weapon our Republic has are the men and woman who serve her, and us, in uniform. I’ve never had a greater burden nor a greater honor that to do my small part in leading them.

I think that ALL good, but I believe that the seven year waiting period would get it all done on it’s own. It takes the post service incentives out of the flag rank’s equation.

Sometimes I find it hard to believe that it was only my parent’s generation that had the balls to fire bomb Tokyo and Dresden. It will take a mushroom cloud over NYC or DC (God forbid) to get us to that point.

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement

AdChoices | Become a fan on and follow us on
© 2013 Military Advantage
A Monster Company.