Navy pushes back against LCS critique

Navy pushes back against LCS critique

John Sayen wrote a stinging critique of the Navy’s Littoral Combat Ship program for Time’s Battleland Blog. He’s not the first and certainly won’t be the last defense commentator to square his crosshairs on a program that has seen deadlines fly by and and costs spiral.

What’s different is the manner the Navy is so publicly pushing back against the arguments he made against the LCS. Navy’s Chief of Information Rear Adm. John Kirby wrote a stinging rebuke to Sayen’s article on the Navy’s blog, Navy Live, picking it apart in a piece entitled “LCS: Lets Talk Facts.”

It’s rare to see a service spokesperson so deliberately counter an article by writing an article of his own. Often, public affairs officers will circulate talking points to commanders to dispel the article, or simply put out a statement. You could call Kirby’s piece a statement, but rarely does a statement go on for more than 1,500 words.


Navy PAOs have taken notice to Kirby’s  pro-active approach in discussing controversial Navy programs since he took over as the Navy’s top spokesperson. One Navy PAO wrote that Kirby has been “sending out regular missives to us PAO’s and challenging us to not be just a glorified answering machine for the Navy, but rather embrace our role as spokespeople and represent the Navy and it’s programs to the media.”

As for Kirby’s piece, it speaks for itself. Read the full blog here.

He tackles the questions over the ever increasing cost of LCS ships within the program writing:

“Yes, there has definitely been cost growth. Can’t deny that. The Navy initially established an objective cost of $250 million per ship and a threshold cost of $400 million per ship (seaframe and mission modules included). The first two seaframes of the class, which were both research and development ships of two different variants, cost $537 million (LCS 1) and $653 million (LCS 2), respectively. 

“But that was then. This is now. We have 20 LCSs under fixed price contracts. The average price for LCS will be below the congressionally mandated cost cap.

“And the tenth ship of each production run will beat the cost cap by several tens of millions of dollars. That will allow us to inject added capabilities, if desired or required, without breaking the bank—just as we have done in the Arleigh Burke DDG program for the past 20 years.

“On balance, for the LCS’s size and capability, we believe the Navy — and the taxpayers –are getting one heck of a bargain.”

In regards to the Congressional Research Service’s study that found the LCS is not survivable in a “hostile combat environment,” Kirby wrote:

“Like all warships, LCS is built to fight. It’s built for combat. 

“Nobody ever said this ship can — and no engineer can ever design a ship to — withstand every conceivable threat on the sea. But the LCS is significantly more capable than the older mine counter measure ships and patrol craft it was designed to replace, and stands up well to the frigates now serving in the fleet.

“It is fast, maneuverable, and has low radar, infrared, and magnetic signatures. Its core self-defense suite is designed to defeat a surprise salvo of one or two anti-ship cruise missiles when the ship is operating independently, or leakers that get through fleet area and short-range air defenses when operating with naval task forces.

“Its 57mm gun is more than capable of taking out small boats and craft. Its armed helicopter gives the LCS an over-the-horizon attack capability and is lethal against submarines. LCS will stand outside of minefields and sweep them with little danger to its crew—and be able to defend itself while doing so. The ship has extensive automated firefighting systems and can remain afloat after considerable flooding damage.    

“We’re more than comfortable that the ship can fight and defend itself in a combat environment, especially when acting in concert with larger multi-mission cruisers and destroyers, exactly as we designed it to do.”

There will be plenty of defense observers who take umbrage with some of Kirby’s arguments. Kirby says he encourages the discussion and finishes his piece writing this:

“I don’t expect the LCS debate to cease anytime soon. As I said, I welcome it. It’s healthy for us and for the country. But I do expect the criticism to be based on facts — current, relevant facts.

“Let’s try to have THAT discussion.”

Well, then.

Join the Conversation

The Navy has no excuse for the faults of the LCS and stupid amount of money that went into making it. The LCS is a massive spending screw up.

Funny how you have to crow about the 57mm because NLOS went down the tubes.

I wonder if an ATACMS could be fired from an LCS…

From mst reports the Lockheed LCS dose work the other not so much maybe we need to stream line the LCS ships and production to make it a better success. And more bigger ship like DDG-1000 are needed.

A 57mm gun isn’t much armament unless the adversary carries little more than machine guns — the LCS is little more than a glorified coast guard cutter and is armed identically. It’s own ability — even according to the navy specs — to take a punch is questionable (especially given the small size of the crew).

There is no long-range kill capability — no Harpoons, etc. It has to be up close to be able to fight back. The LCS will be a sitting duck for a real adversary.

SAYEN: “Its RIM-116 [me: Rolling Airframe Missile] lacks the range to protect other ships. Its 57mm gun is short-ranged and cannot support troops ashore.”

OK … but the LCS was never designed to protect other ships or to support troops ashore. That’s not its job.

Its job is to protect the sea base and high value naval units from swarming boats, hunt down and sink diesel submarines, and clear mines in littoral waters.
——————–
“was never designed to protect other ships.…its job is to protect the sea base and high value naval units from swarming boats”

RAM definitely isn’t meant to extend some kind of anti-missile umbrella. You’d need a SPY-1 of some sort and Standard missiles, and that comes from Ticos and Arleighs.

At least this part is somewhat true…

“It will have a better anti-submarine capability than the frigate it replaces.”

And we’ll see about ” And it will be superior to the mine warfare vessels it replaces.”

I was under the impression from multiple articles that the two designs balanced fairly evenly. LCS-2 has the huge mission bays and the higher (36′ vs. 19′) / larger (7300 sq ft vs. 5200 sq ft) / dryer flight deck plus its range is 4300 nm not 3500 nm and the LCS-2 also has a higher cruising speed, 20 knots rather than the 18 kts that LCS-1 publishes.
And they both are nearly un-armed for any threat more than 10 or 15 miles out… So is there a plan for any medium/long range armament on the horizon?
The article below is two years old, but it does give a pretty decent summary of the two ships.
http://​www​.defensenews​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​2​0​1​0​0​5​0​3​/​D​E​FSE

I’ve been wondering if they could just carry gmlrs. That should be alot easier to shoot.

I think they should use a container like the russian klub missiles, we should be able to fit the launcher nicely in a container.

A gmlrs shot is 90k vs 1,200,000 for a harpoon.

I though there was a plan to use tactical length MK-41 VLS to give the LCS classes an offensive punch. The international version was supposed to have them port side of the hanger deck but there doesn’t appear to be space for them in the current LCS-4. What is in the hatch just aft of the 57mm? 3 years ago there were diagrams showing tactical length VLS there, as well. It seems like they were contemplating putting offensive weapons anywhere they could be possibly conceived as fitting.

“But that was then. This is now. We have 20 LCSs under fixed price contracts. The average price for LCS will be below the congressionally mandated cost cap.”

You’ve heard that amateurs study strategy and tactics, while professionals study logistics?

In the same line, amateurs focus on up-front acquisition cost, while professionals focus on lifecycle cost.

And lifecycle cost for LCS is shaping up to be horrendous. These ships are already fragile pier queens. They already have severe corrosion issues.

Plus, the minimal manning model means that what crew are aboard are going to be scrambling from watch to watch simply to keep the vessel operating in peacetime. No time left for basic maintenance and repair.

Of course, the _contractors_ will end up doing the basic maintenance and repair. Except they’ll charge an arm and a leg for it. On top of the higher baseline costs that come from deferring needed work until making port where said contractors have a footprint.

An LCS without Harpoons or other long-range antiship missiles is useless as any much smaller and numerous missile boat will take it out from 200 miles away with a Brahmos or similar missile. Nothing can fix that deficit. I hope it gets cancelled yesterday. The entire Nayv leadership should be fired particularly after Romney wins.

“At least this part is somewhat true…

“It will have a better anti-submarine capability than the frigate it replaces.”

And we’ll see about ” And it will be superior to the mine warfare vessels it replaces.”

And we can all debate that once the LCS can actually do it. He’s debating costs when the mission modules haven’t been tested or fielded yet.

I think Frigates, corvettes, Virginia class subs are more better than LCS.

Indeed. Also trying to hope enough LCS gets built to amortise costs. And if not.…

To early to tell about ddg-1k.

Its screwed up already anyways. No space to grow into no room for more sailors to make it work when they find out a ship built for optimal manning cant keep itself together.

You all think the LCS is a piece of c ra p?

Question, what’s more incompetent than the LCS?
What’s costs much more than it’s worth?
What’s full of happy happy talk?
What promises much but delivers little?
What cannot justify it’s existence?
What has no basis in reality?
What needs to be replaced NOW?

That’s right folks, the Admirality!!!

Your just insulted all of the fine people in the Coast Guard ;-P

I’d take a cutter any day over the LCS

Romneys’s first day on the job goes like this

8:01 am — repeal ObamerCare
8:02 am — fire every Admiral who’s ever supported the LCS
8:03 am –cancel the LCS program
8:04 am –fire more Admirals just to put the fear of God into them
8:05 am — get the Navy out of the F-35 program
8:06 am — fire more Admirals until the ratio of Admirals to ships is no longer 1:1 but 1:15
8:07am — call all defense contractor CEOs to the oval office and tell them that he’ll “cut off their balls if they keep screwing with the American taxpayers” and then send them on their way by saying “have a great day“
8:08 am — reinstate Navy shipyards

etc etc

That hatch is where NLOS was to go. Putting 8 Mk-41 VLS (SD length) there would protrude above deck, but that’s no unworkable thing; RAM/RAS skirting around it would look fugly, but that wouldn’t hurt *this* ship.

Downside: VLS requires radars and computers not currently installed, so the total cost of building the ship goes up. It also requires a human or two to operate and maintain, so the total cost of ownership also climbs.

I read through the entire load of articles on this, including the navy’s reply to the critics. And what I’ve concluded, is that while the LCS is at least built to navy (as opposed commercial) standards, the navy has completely failed to answer to the concerns about the lack of armament for the LCS. Claiming that you have an “over the horizon” attack capability because you have a helicopter aboard isn’t very reassuring (it is in fact — weak).

The attempt to answer the critics concerns is (IMO) a fundamental failure. It might be a fun ship for taking a ride in — but if it comes to a fight the lack of even a box o’ harpoons to ward off the bad guys (and/or reach out and touch someone), the LCS is not a dangerous opponent — but it sure seems that it would be a dangerous place to serve should the shooting begin.

That wasn’t my intent — I apologize!

Remember the Candians thought the 57mm was adequate for their 4000 ton Hallifax frigates. A 57mm has max. rate of fire (rof) of up to 220 rounds/minute (RPM) with each projectile weighing 2.5 Kg with a range of 21 Km. Most Arleigh Bukes are equipped with Mk 54 Mod 2 127mm gun, with a max. rof up 20 RPM with each projectile weight 32 Kg and range 23.7 km. The FFGs which the LCS is replacing have the Mk 75 76mm gun with a rof of 85 RPM, 6.4Kg projectile and range 19.2Km.
Thus the LCS has a gun weight of shell (rof x projectile weight) and range almost the same as most DDGs and superior to the FFGs.

Solid article, Mike. I would say that the tasking to us PAOs.…as taught from the opening stanzas of the training at the Defense Information School.….is to be more “trusted advisor” than “spokesperson.” That trusted advisor role goes above and beyond the canned statement and facilitation of an interview. It requires message alignment and total investment in the issues affecting your command. Answering the critics with frank, open and substantive dialogue is part of that process. In that sense, RDML Kirby’s response to Time is right on target.

As part of his job, the Admiral has to protect the program. Specially with so much money spent on the program. They straighten things out financially for future production, but its going be expensive swarm ship. Destroyer Escorts with mimnmum self-defense abilities, design go in and do anti-mine, light anti-ship and other side tasks too important for Navy’s Mainline Destroyers. Face its, the fleet is now being reduced to force main-consisting of Guided Missile Destroyers, Submarines and Carriers, with supporting elements like the LCS. Module system is very good, but designs their using are poorly executing this, modules should been in done better. There been use of modules before on smaller ships by European navies. Their finally using them on Navy Frigate size ships, but not for mainline service.

LCS should not have been put into mass production, not until limited class could flesh it out.

While I agree that the folks that determined LCS would somehow prove to be a useful asset to the navy given the budgetary pressures of today, especially in light of the sophisticated, stealthy boats coming down the slipways of our allies should all be canned — I wish I shared your optimism w/r/t/ Romney.

My family and his lived in the same town, and we’ve known him on and off for years. His own neighbors refused to support him in his senate campaign (for a lot of reasons).

Ya know, we used to build ships around weapons systems, Aegis, SQQ-26, ASROC, SM-1/2, VLS, etc. Now we build them around vaporware systems.

The Navy loves to use the terms “seaframe” to describe the LCS-WTF? SeaFrame is the equivalent of saying
truck frame, house frame, it’s just a shell. Which is what the LCS is-just a monster sized 4000ton shell

Just image if we built an Nimitz aircraft carrier without any aircraft (don’t worry about the aircraft-we’re working on them they would say), a submarine with no sonar or torpedoes, a Aegis destroyer with no Aegis radar nor weapons-just big black holes in the deck and then we go on to explain how each of these are ‘revolutionary, transformational, networked, game-changing, blah blah blah. We’d get laughed out of town

But somehow the LCS keeps getting funding and the Navy brass thinks it’s the best damn warship in the whole world.

I do believe my Navy is insane

Agreed. A SPY-1 would pump the cost up to unsustainable levels.

Perhaps the real question might be if a “networked navy” would allow a DDG or CG from afar to pick up targets, then have LCS fire weapons and hand off terminal guidance to the DDG/CG to get things done?

Of course, this would suggest the acquisition range of a SPY-1 is far greater than the range of its own weapons: otherwise the DDG/CG would just do it themselves?

May be his team is open to suggestions. Have not been successful in getting John Lehman’s email

If you mind looking, Halifax class frigate got more firepower like Harpoon and SeaSparrow.

And the Otobreda 76mm have a range of up to 20 km and 30 km and 40 km, depending of the ammunition used. That make a long run for the LCS to escape its range.

57mm might not be much but it beats the pair of .50cals of the mine sweepers and patrol boats that the LCS was inteneded to replace.

I’m doubtful of that scenario. If its operating “in concert with larger ships as it was intended” who would target the relatively tiny radar and IR profile of the LCS when it’d be surrounded by much larger more costly targets.

Your assumption require a vacuum where a complete failure of planning and fleet organization would have occured and an LCS is sent solo against an enemy that even an Aegis equipped ship would struggle with.

Anyone who thinks the LCS is a presidential issue is silly. The entire program for 20 ships costs less than a single Ford class aircraft carrier. This isn’t even a significant portion of the ship building budget next to the carriers, nuclear subs, and additional destroyers being purchased. People who want Romney to wave a magic wand and make LCS and its supporting Admirals disappear are fooling themselves. The Navy is justified in purueing the LCS ship, because it painted itself into a corner where the LCS or something similarly expensive is the only way to match disperate needs that have come about through the over emphasis of capital ships.

Romney’s position, assuming a degree of consistency on his part, would be to say its the unfortunate consequence of years of Navy budget constraints that prevented the Navy from addressing this issue earlier when these needs could simply be addressed as wants… where time could have been given to develope classes of ships dedicated to these missions.

I think the aircraft carrier is actually a good example of how the LCS has been developed… you just have to go much further back in time than the Nimitz. The first aircraft carriers simply utilized modified pre-existing aircraft modified for short take offs.The aircraft really didn’t exist, but were eventually developed. The greatest strength of the aircraft carrier is its open ended mission architecture where its composition of aircraft can be altered to accomodate a changing battlefield landscape. This type of adaptability is what they’re trying to bring to the LCS.

It might not have all the capabilities it was intended to, but the important thing is that easier than any other ship in the fleet, those capabilities can be added at a later date.

Additionally the simple fact is the Navy could never complete developement of any mission modules until the ship designs were locked in beyond the first development ships. Now that we’ve moved beyond that point the Navy has started moving pretty quickly having acquired both surface warfare and anti-mine modules for both ships. Those are currently undergoing testing at this time. If the Navy is guilty of anything its for not building a testbed ship just to support mission module development.

that’s the error in strategic thinking. In battle, the larger ship may be incapacitated making the LCS a sitting duck. A ship without weapons for 800 mill/ship. We won’t stay a superpower much longer.

Take your stars off, don a faded t-shirt, some steel-toed workboots, get yourself a badge and sneak onto the floor of one of these ships under construction. Blend in like you’re an old-timer just having been transfered to this facility. Listen to the crew, the supervisors; watch them “work” and you will find a cloud of sloth, corruption and indifference to the safety of the future crews of these vessels. You can have all the best engineers, designers and technical genius provide step by step instructions but you can’t make a union member give a damn. Start by repealing the Davis-Bacon Act then add navy qualified enlisted personnel to the construction floor and you’ll solve 90% of construction cost and competence problems. Add some crippling fines to the personal pockets of the upper management of these contractors and whala! You’ll have ships that work as intended. Oh. And one more thing. Make Big Dean Navy Secretary.

Davis Bacon is to ensure that federal workers aren’t paid less than the “local prevailing wages”. During the depression, when there were no jobs at all…then what is the local prevailing wage?

I wonder who would bid on construction projects for the VA if the VA could only pay them less than local prevailing wages? Chances are the “free market” would force VA bidders to pay prevailing wages to recruit any workers…unless there was a recession going on, and people would happily work for peanuts. By then, local prevailing wages would skew downwards to begin with…so, what do you have against Davis Bacon?

What does adding navy qualified enlisted personnel to the construction process do? Perhaps tankers and infantrymen will learn how to use CNC lathes to build their own rifles? It might be a throwback to the 1770’s when Pennsylvania gunsmiths built rifles and then went out to fight their enemies with weapons they built, but…

As for “crippling fines to the personal pockets of upper management”, that…might work. Well, depends on if [contractor A] knows some guys in HASC…

Twenty ships + R&D or buying something from the Danes off-the-shelf and saving R&D to pay for JSF, or perhaps to buy fancy upgrades for aircraft…or invest in R&D to deploy a reload-VLS-tubes-at-sea system?

Thanks Admiral, prospective Enemies now know that the ship can defeat “One or Two” ASGM’s, so they will send ten.

The 57mm rapid firing cannon is very capable regardless. It and the NLOS are totally different weapons. The NLOS was designed to take out ships at over the horizon distances not in close. Would you say the same thing if it was the 3″ Italian Otomelara — longer range but slower firing like we have on out FFG’s? Tgat mount is likely too large for the LCS design and is older technology.

Curious to know if the RBS-15 from the Swedes could be an NLOS replacement.
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​R​B​S​-15

Halifax probably uses the arm-launcher that the USN deprecated for the Perrys and didn’t consider for NLOS. I think we’re in love with VLS like systems.

Edit: Appears not. Specifically, Harpoon 1Cs, 2x quad mounts.

Depends if you’re on the receiving end. The 57mm is a Swedish Bofors design used by 14 countries with sonme very effective ammunition designs. The Sweedes use them on ther PC and fast attack boats.

The Perrys weigh in at 4 kilotons, the Freedom at ~3 kilotons and the Independence at 2 kilotons.

If the LCS is expected to be littoral, it won’t just be duelling with small boats, it may have to deal with land-based fighters, ground-launched anti-ship missiles, ATGMs, or even some guy with a Carl Gustav (or an RPG-7) popping away at it. Depending on how littoral you are, you may even get tube artillery and mortars.

Littoral is probably not a misnomer, but it’s more greenwater than a brownwater ship. There’s no way they would take it that close to shore…

If we’re going with LCS being an anti-swarmer, then it should be the mothership to a capable class of smallcraft, something like the Mk V SOC or the brown water navy of Vietnam.

For the LCS operating the periphery of a fleet’s anti-missile umbrella, they aren’t expected to survive waves and waves of missiles…

The LCS is only better with a towed array. Ithas no real hull sonar, not for sub hunting. Leaked reports indicate that it is incapable of even detecting an inbound torpedo. Hopefully that is false, or has been remedied, but we’ll see. To be fair you’re pretty well screwed if a torpedo goes active anyways, but I digress.

Iran has kilos. North Korea has minisubs, and we learned after the Cheonan that perhaps we do need those capabilities.

I suspect the Navy is hoping that some kind of ASW module (with USVs and the like) will compensate, but…what if you bring a mix of capabilities aboard modules but come up a little short in the wrong place?

I can’t comment on the veracity of it, but I’ve heard more than one old hand say that we lost a lot of capability when the Naval Yards were (mostly) closed by Congress.

If I understand you correctly, that was rather my point. I like the LCS just fine, but not the Navy’s decision to not build a new class of frigate. There are some tasks that LCS just won’t be up for.

I agree with your previous post, I’m just noting my own justifications for doing so, and trying to guess at the Navy’s intent as to why they think the LCS has ASW capability.

Maybe the LCS is a sort of frigate, in which case…does it need to be littoral? A different class of boat is what you need for anti-swarm: that would be an even smaller boat that is more brown-water than green or blue water, as the LCS is.

When were all the navy yards closed? I know Brooklyn was closed in the ‘60s, Mare Island got the BRAC; and perhaps the rest got privatized…?

Canadian navy definitely have to deal with small budget, they are still flying 50years old sea king helicopter, still waiting for the CH-148.

Apparently the next warship will replace both frigate and destroyer. I hope it won’t be based on the LCS. ;-)

After reading this document, it will be interesting to see the trade-off chosen by the canadian navy.

It contain an interesting risk analysis of different approach, although it’s not a thorough one. http://​pubs​.drdc​.gc​.ca/​P​D​F​S​/​u​n​c​6​0​/​p​5​2​6​4​7​4​.​pdf

The Naval Yards have been out of the new construction business for a very long time. I can’t think of a major ship that was built in them since the 60’s. I have been on ships in both commerical (Newport News for example) and Naval (Philadelphia) and the commercial/private was much better run. Actually, Bath Iron Works and Pascagoula were very good shipyards.

Closed, not really privatized. There are 4 left, two per coast

Aren’t Norfolk and Puget Sound the only navy yards left?

after all, the LCS are cheap and built to be expendable ;-P

Just cancel the LCS and go with either a multi-role frigate from Western Europe or go with the US Coast Guard’s National Security Cutter design. The LCS as it is, is nothing more than a death trap for any potential Sailor, chief and officer. The people responsible for the LCS debacle, should be put in Federal prison suit and hauled off to the nearest federal prison.

Go Nicky!!! :-D

I think we should stop producing the “module” LCS for now and buy the export grade one…the all-rounders instead of the specialist module-boats.

Once the hulls are validated, resume production of the specialist hulls. And by then the module tech should be mature.

No
Portsmouth (New Hampshire) and Pearl Harbor

I wish there was away to fix the LCS problem. Frankly & unfortunately it would be too costly. Too much years of design work, infrustrature and supply lines been established to break it up. I doubt Congress would even pass a new design with grid lock, i think that part of reason why they went back to the Burke DDGs in the first place.

The ship is a support ship or suppliment fighting ship, thats that. In away, big navy sort combat is thing of the past. So, it maybe not as bad. We can only hope its not put to the test.

You are correct. Also, what do they do with the dead and wounded. Throw them over the side. The Navy has been fucked up for the last fifty years that I know of. I did ten years and then could not stand their stupid attitude anymore.

The LCS does have a vulnerbility issue. From what I have gleaned from the Navy’s own documentation concerning the USS Freedom, the ships lack the capability to UNREP which would require the vessels to constantly put into port for fuel and stores. While it may be possible to receive stores via VERTREP it cannot take on fuel in this fashion. We should all be aware of the hazards of fueling in port when looking at the USS Cole incident, and one wonders what possessed 5th fleet to arrange a fuel stop in an obvious unfriendly state such as South Yemen.

what about WASHINGTON DC NAVY YARD ??

I see it on the TV show, “NCIS” every night !!

seriously, that really IS a Navy shipyard, right ?? After all, it is located in a combat zone, right near the WASHINTON NATIONALS Baseball stadium. Hazardous duty pay for working in the Washington Navy Yard ???

…?

http://​www​.navytimes​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​2​0​0​9​/​0​5​/​n​a​v​y​_​l​c​s​_05

The ship is a big WW2 PT Boat and a sacrifice like the PT Boats were in WW2. At least with the ones in WW2 you could get a possible quick strike in with torpedos before they bit the dust. This new ships needs a powerful punch and only a volunteer crew that knows their gonna die if war breaks out because they can only be in the front line like in places like SE Asia or the Philippines like the PT Boats were. I don’t like the idea of weapons modules. That means if the ship has a surface module and runs into a mine field its screwed. Cannot go back to port to change modules. So I guess they plan to have several working together with several different modules. If several Chinese destroyers come over the horizan on patrol and you only have 1 surface module then I guess your screwed as well again. Instead of a helo why cant they have a VLS and give them a AUV like the Missouri had during the gulf war. Another topic but get rid of Zawalt and bring back the IOWA Class Battleships and mount the new rail gun in them with guided muntions plus a nuclear reactor and VLS.

Are you really serious?

Washington Navy Yard is not a shipyard and as far as I know hasn’t been one for a very very long time (if ever).

To me the Government is paying double. They pay the work force in the NSY to maintain and scrap the ships even nuclear (PSNS) and pay the civilians to build them. I understand that during ww2 when the economy went to war production that civilian yards were given contracts but I know that before the war allot of ships were built in the Navy Shipyard. I think we need to get back to that. There will never be a world war like ww2 were we have time to rev up productiion to build ships like then. I think in the next world war I doubt it will last to long with the weapons they have now. I know, as we all know a land war can last awhile if it is an insurgency but not if it is fighting like ww2. hat the Navy can build before then is what it will have to fight with. So I think Hunters Point in Mare Island needs to be reopened for fleet maintenance and dry docking and the PSNS has a dry dock big enough to build the Ford Class Carriers, they need to prepare and take over construction after the first three are built due to contracts already with NPNews. Then PSNS can use its 6 dry docks as construction dry docks for the fleet. (CVN’s, CGN’s, DDG’s etc)

“Sea Frame?” Is that the latest Minitruth-approved term for “hull?”

Strangely, the term popped up in 2004.
http://​marinelink​.com/​n​e​w​s​/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​l​c​s​-​t​e​a​m​-​c​o​nfi

Navy’s trying to keep the shipbuilding business alive. Otherwise once you start losing the expertise, you’re kind of toast.

The LCS is the largest PoS, since the “diesel DEs” of the late 50’s/60’s!!!

Given the fact Romney was investing with the Chinese national oil company while they were buying oil from Iran, he’ll probably look in his portfolio to see how much he can make from 40 LCS’s

From all I’ve heard here I think the LCS would do great in a Hollywood movie.

As a former senior systems engineer who worked seven years in the Army’s FCS program, I would gently inform Rear Admiral Kirby that it is by no means unlikely that the Navy tried to make LCS “too big to fail”. I’ve seen that strategy used elsewhere and LCS rather strongly resembles it.

I would also suggest that there is ample evidence the Navy suffers from a requirements process that is deeply broken, and a cadre of government cost estimators who couldn’t find their own behinds using both hands on a sunny day. I served over 40 years experience as a systems engineer and acquisition manager on both sides of the Service/Industry interface. From that background, the idea that costs can be driven downward AFTER design is frozen, isn’t supported by real world experience for systems as complex as ships, produced in limited numbers. If you don’t design to cost and to stable, realizable requirements, then what you get is the cost of whatever design dream sheet you’ve forced Industry to sign up for.

If the requirement isn’t right — and technically feasible — then the acquisition never will be. High technology may thrill safely distant career bureaucrats and contractors who will promise anything to make a profit. But high tech isn’t the friend of sailors and soldiers whose bosses can’t afford enough of it to fight effectively and on terms appropriate to the threat lethality they actually face.

put one comment on and it is deleted in the first 20 seconds? Wiskey Tango Foxtrot???

I am working on a plot for hollywood! Look on redditcom soon!!

Title : The Littoral Report .…..

The LCS isn’t as heavily armed as a PT boat was: at least the PT boats carried (many configurations/modifications made during their service lives) a huge variety of weapons: torpedos (PT boats sank/damaged some Big Boys — something the LCS cannot do), dual and single 30 and 50 cal MGs, 20MM Cannons, 37 MM’s, 40MM (Bofors), Mark 50 rocket launchers, and depth charges, etc. They were in fact, the most heavily armed boats per ton in the US navy — if not the war.

focus is what is needed!! focus on the mission that the vessel is designed for. the uss cole is an example of what will happen with poor planning, leadership and attitude of leaders. the 57 m/m is not a combat weapon for offense, i think the reason for this poor weapon is self defense and it won’t stay online very long due to heat problems and numerous other problems. hope they don’t need it, the helo will be downed either by maintenance or weather, hope the vessel has lots of speed and vigilant crew. if the mission is going well and they get to perform it the vessel will be worth it’s weight in gold, mines and subs are a real problem.

It seems to happen once in a while.

You might want to try with javascript disabled. For firefox: edit->preference->(content) unmark ‘javascript enabled’.

Otherwise, you might want to try by making a post in many parts. I suspect that there are some blacklisted words here at DoD Buzz. If nothing works, email the admin like I did last time (few month ago).
http://​www​.military​.com/​C​o​n​t​e​n​t​/​H​e​l​p​/​H​e​l​p​E​m​a​i​l​For

You guys are forgetting about fuel it, runs out quickly and can not keep up with a battle group.

prove it

The LCS is going to be a fundemental platform in our ability to take the fight to the enemy inland. The current MCM’s require so much maintenance and are completely unprotected. No single surface weapons platform the Navy has or will have can be completely autonomous. Every vessel design we have ever developed went over the initial cost projection as the design enevitably changes and the needs of the package changes as well. Blaming contractors for the increase is less than professional and those making those remarks have no clue what it takes to design, build and maintain these systems.
I work on 4 MCM’s in Southern Japan, we know they have outlived their design and capabilities. Lets focus on facts rather “gut” feelings on the shape of our fine Navy. The most powerful Navy in the world.

Why can’t conservatives use Google?
http://​digitaljournal​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​3​3​3​510

Sigh! The French La Fayette class, Singapore’s Formidible class and South Africa’s Valour class frigates, are slightly bigger and can do the job better. The German Braunschweig and Turkish MILGEM class corvettes are slightly smaller and still do the job better. You have to wonder what in the hell the US Navy is thinking.

The Independence class LCS is a great ship, and I should know I’ve been a part of it since 2008. The OPTEMPO is Faster than other ships but, the crews do not scramble from watch to watch as you state. If you want real gouge on how they operate talk to the crews, they are proud and Love these ships.The crews do most of the maintenance while contractors do the other portion. In my opinion the real issue is that the two yards in which they are built needs to be moved to someplace like BIW in maine where they are used to building Naval ships. You would then see them being turned out at the pace they should be.

8:09 — Have a good day

The Independence class is a very capable ship and a soild platform for many different types of missions. You have to remember that these ships are built for close inshore types of missions. I should know I’ve been on the “INDIE” since 2008 . The biggest thing to remember is that they are designed for the mission at hand and able to swap out those various mission packages in about a day.This is very easily accomplished on the LCS-2 class and has been done many times. Most people can’t get the traditional ship style and traditional blue water missions out of their systems and that is a shame, as the world is changing and so must the NAVY in order to keep up with new threats and way to engage them.

The Independence class is a very capable ship and a soild platform for many different types of missions. You have to remember that these ships are built for close inshore types of missions. I should know I’ve been on the “INDIE” since 2008 . The biggest thing to remember is that they are designed for the mission at hand and able to swap out those various mission packages in about a day.This is very easily accomplished on the LCS-2 class and has been done many times. Most people can’t get the traditional ship style and traditional blue water missions out of their systems and that is a shame, as the world is changing and so must the NAVY in order to keep up with new threats and way to engage them.

I have never said that there are not any good concept inside the LCS, it’s just that I believe these needs would be better served with a ship with more range, and that can go beyond littoral. I am sure that its high speed capability is a plus, but it seems to infringe too many other capability to remain really flexible. I am tempted to figure out how robust the LCS is by doing a live fire but its cost make it hardly possible. I hope that there is a clause for free towing at the expense of lockheed.

Can the LCS pass through Cap horn in most condition (iceberg excluded) without significant damage? With that flight deck someone could paint “I survived Cap Horn” on its stern.

Littoral indeed. Pirates and drug runners beware. Unless they happen to have an airplane. The primary LCS AAW weapon, RAM, is an aging, 25yr old system replete with a vast array of documented design and operational limitations. Can’t fire into the sun, susceptible to flaring decoys, etc etc., all explained away by Raytheon as “it ain’t a valid RAM target”. Sure. From what I’ve read about the LCS it would seem LCS and RAM deserve each other.

Each class carries a certain number of Hellfire missiles, sonobouys, helo-dropped torpedoes, etc. There certainly are plans for fairly large sized magazines aboard both classes.

Question for you since you are in the arena, and actually “out on the playing field” onboard LCS-2: Have you guys finished all your required tests for a brand new first-of-class ship type yet ? Things like CSSQT, INSURV, TECHEVAL, OPEVAL, FCT (Final Contract Trials), and has COMOPTEVFOR issued its final report on your new ship ? Thanks for serving on this new type of ship, by the way.

With a country as large as ours, the U.S. Navy should be able to afford large quantities of small LCS’s, medium sized frigates, large destroyers, and even a few huge cruisers. That our leaders won’t obtain the necessary funding from our huge country to accomplish this essential strength, shows that America is heading downhill fast.

I hope your correct about Independence. Its interesting design, but love for ship won’t hold up under enemy fire. A FACs armed with 8 anti-ship missiles and 3 Inch Rapid Fire Metro cannon could overwhelm LCS. My impression this would be typical surface unit that LCS would be fighting along with its modules being used for other tasks.

I wish they had widened LCS-2’s bow section bit more. Least that would have given more room to add more systems. I’m sure there reason for it, but i don’t think big/wide enough.

He won’t reinstate navy shipyards because he believes in the free market. If anything, he might just get the Navy *out* of the shipyard business.

The Burkes and the Virginias would be, in his mind, an example of Navy procurement and construction in private sector working /just fine/.

hell does it matter what the LCS was built for. well if alot of dont like the lets go back to dark ages, like PT bouts which were built for what. thay could not protect a fleet ethier. i say build them. at less 6 of them 3 on the east 3 0nthe west. think about it why do the navy have hover craft for there use is not that good. a bullet hit the air bag it goes no were.

Wouldn’t reinstating the Navy yards would be up to Congress in any event?

True, though when has Congress really disagreed from POTUS on military matters that involve putting more money into defense?

Exactly! I hope that’s exactly what he will do on his first day as President.

Today the USN has 336 Admirals but only 285 ships!

Whats funny about Romney, is that what he claims to be replacing Obamacare with are the exact same features of Romneycare, which is exactly the same as Obamacare. So if you’re looking to waste taxpayer funds exchanging one for the other, — vote for Willard.

Just be prepared to be treated just like Seamus the Dog!

given that Romney was perfectly happy to accept a federal government bailout for Bain while he was running it — doesn’t that concern you that he was against helping the US auto industry? It was great for him — but not anyone else now that he got his…

I’m sorry but you are misinformed on that point about LCS being unable to Unrep. LCS can take take fuel underway just like any other Navy vessel. She does not have a CONREP station (read no Kingpost) for other stores though and must move any other commodity than fuel by Vertrep or small boat transfer, a limitation to be sure, but not an insurmountable problem.
Dave Hart

This reminds me of building a bridge to nowhere. Exactly what is this suppose to be, a ship of war or a publicity stunt?

AND just what does “littoral” mean to you?

How DUMB, DUMB, DUMB of the Navy to design and accept a ship that cannot even UNREP! The Navy goes and stupidly SINKS a perfectly good, multi-mission capable LHA, USS Belleau Wood (LHA-3) gator that was superior and much better armed than this thin-skinned sh*t metal LCS junk! Undermanned, under-armed, vastly overrated and overpriced LCS is a real pity. Sounds like a serious recipe for disaster! More bureaucratic bungling from the vastly overpaid higher-ups who never seem to “get it”. They demand more and more and expect sailors to work with less and less at every turn. Go figure! When will they ever learn and get back to BASICS? What good are PHDs when common sense is LOST obtaining degrees?

The LCS now have a new little brother, Steve Jobs Zen boat aka. “Venus”. All you need is to replace ‘luxury yatch’ by ‘STEALTH, highly survivable’ to make it a warship. Its zen configuration along with 27inch iMac will detect any treat from great distance.
http://​www​.pcmag​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​2​/​0​,​2​8​1​7​,​2​4​1​1​4​8​7​,​0​0​.​a​spl

That’s really where the LCS should belong. Well though it would be a direct competitor to the Titanic. Fast, invincible and ultra-modern. ;-)

57mm pea shooter, 1 helo, and only RAMs for defense (no fleet level defense capability? lol…) Yea this thing sounds like an utter POS. If this glorified coast guard cutter had been designed with even a limited capability to fire like 10 standards, harpoons, and t-hawks I highly doubt we’d be seeing the current level of criticism.

The reality is that a smaller, less expensive and faster “ship” could have been designed to fill this exact mission role… The industrial military complex is raping the tax payers yet again, what a big surprise…

Ando, no intention of disrespect on my part, but you might look first to the military requirements process before you point fingers at industry. The Joint Requirements Oversight Council too often validates as requirements, unrealistic “desirements” that lack proven or mature technology, The LCS is only one of the more recent debacles that have directly resulted.

For 42 years, I worked both sides of the military-industrial interface, first as an Air Force officer and later as a senior systems engineer in aerospace. I never once saw an ORD that was seriously influenced by Industry assessments of the limitations of available technology. But I saw a good many that attempted to violate laws of physics — each of them written by mid-level careerist military officers trying to make a name for themselves.

For the little this is worth, the Navy is not alone in such idiocy. The Army is now arguing over the next generation of Ground Combat Vehicles — which they have grossly inflated into a weight range of 65–80 tons, in order to carry nine-soldier squads. These vehicles might survive more IEDs, but they are also unlikely to be deployed where they’re most needed. Rural roads and bridges won’t carry them without breaking up. This is a predictably unacceptable outcome — but the Army continues to charge on while ignoring the elephants in their living room.

I see no disrespect at all in your post so no worries at all. It is most certainly true that I have not spent a large amount of time looking over the military requirements process in regards to this particular hull however I still do not look at it as an excuse as to the development that has lead to this debacle as you have stated. The reality, regardless of whose fault it is down the line, is that the LCS is an overpriced under performing vessel that in mine and many others opinion should never have been built.

As for the army’s m2 “replacement” I’ve looked into it over the past few days and if the weight assessments are at all true (it’s speculated that they are not) , then this is by far a bigger debacle than the LCS. The m2’s replacement plays a far bigger role in the army’s combat capability than the LCS does for the navy.

Ando, there’s a rule of thumb that I’ve observed over the years of my career: ” If the requirement isn’t right, then the acquisition never will be”. The requirement for LCS appears from the discussion of this article to have been ill thought out. The development proceeded directly from that poor basis. The last seven years of my career were with the Lead Systems Integrator organization of the (now cancelled) Army FCS program, and the pattern is familiar. I would agree with you enthusiastically about the potential for disaster which the GCV (and for similar reasons, LCS) comprises.

As far as I can see, the primary rationale for the size of the crew and soldier compliment in GCV was NOT to improve the fighting power of the vehicle and its dismounts. It was to keep Congress from shoving an upgrade of Bradley Fighting Vehicle down the Army’s throat.… which in my view would likely have been a FAR better and cheaper alternative.

Just ONCE I would love to read a Request for Proposals that implements a true “design to cost” process, I.E., something like the following. “Bidders have a year in which to propose a vehicle with its sub-systems, and to write an operational CONOP, that will meet basic needs for transportability, mobility, fuel efficiency, offensive and defensive weapon systems, area surveillance, targeting, communications, logistics and all elements of operational support. All implementing technologies shall have been demonstrated under realistic deployment conditions. All requirements are subject to trade except vehicle production cost and operations cost per mile, for production quantities of 500 vehicles. The cost proposal shall become a contractual document. Cancellation of the program and payment of penalties by the contractor(s) shall be automatic and binding if projected production cost exceeds the cost proposal by more than 20%, for the baseline of requirements frozen during Milestone B (beginning of Full Scale Development).”

Of course, we don’t live in that kind of world. (sigh)… Congress and profit-sensitive contractors would never roll over and play dead in the face of such basic common sense.

Having been on a ship with Harpoon it doesn’t take much to mount it, if it is desired. Quad packs can be installed vertically under the flight deck with flush mounted hatches. My real concern is the bare bones crew count. Battle damage rarely expresses itself in just the way the designers intend to deal with it. No one understood that the impact of an AShM would also include the still burning motor raising the internal temperature of a compartment to 1800 degrees igniting anything remotely combustible. Modern experience with damage control has shown massive manpower inputs to save the ship. The LCS crewing standard will not allow that.

I know the 3P rounds are quite effective… when compared to other 40mm and 57mm ammunition. Particularly against soft targets, i.e. aircraft, small unarmored boats, etc. The 57mm will toss out a regular hail storm of those little tungsten balls, and with the rate of fire possible with the automated 57mm mounts, a quite lethal burst can be pumped out. On the other hand, even relatively mild armor will stop those little pellets. If you want to say that nobody makes armored warships any more, take a look at the coastal fleet for North Korea. What would an LCS do if confronted by one of the large coastal patrol boats, and example of which would be one of their 13 Taechong I/II class large patrol boats

Displacement: 410 tons full load
Dimensions: 59.8 x 7.2 x 2 meters (196 x 23.5 x 6.5 feet)
Propulsion: 4 diesels, 4 shafts, 8,800 bhp, 30 knots
Crew: approx. 75–80
Sonar: Tamir-11
Armament: 1 100mm/56 DP, 1 dual 57 mm AA, 1 dual 25 mm AA, 2 dual 14.5 mm MG, 2 RBU-1200 ASW rocket launchers, 2 DC racks, mines

Now you can easily suggest that the encounter would never occur because the air cap would take down the Korean boat, or the LCS would depart local at high speed, but such options are NOT alway available in combat situations.

Even worse, consider an encounter between an LCS and the bad-guy equivalent of the Swedish Combat Boat-90 in tight quarters or in a tactical situation where escape is not much of an option.… .
http://​www​.liveleak​.com/​v​i​e​w​?​i​=​b​c​7​_​1​2​9​4​4​1​4​853
or http://​www​.liveleak​.com/​v​i​e​w​?​i​=​4​4​f​_​1​3​2​2​1​5​9​076

Then dig out your JMEM to look up the lethality of a laser-guided 120mm mortar round against soft targets, like either of the LCS designs, at 11000 meters! LOL!

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