Calculating the Army’s Pacific future

Calculating the Army’s Pacific future

The U.S. Army is tired of hearing about Air Sea Battle without mentioning the Army. Service leaders also grind their teeth when defense analysts talk about how it is the Air Force and Navy’s turn to get the funding boost the Army has enjoyed the past eleven years to fight the wars if Iraq and Afghanistan.

The introduction of the new defense strategy, known as the Pacific pivot, has put the Army on the defensive when explaining its future role. Soldiers say they are frustrated looking back at how they have shouldered the majority of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and now are left to justify their existence under this Pacific-centric strategy.

The frustration was palpable this past week at the Association of the U.S. Army’s annual conference in Washington D.C. where Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno summed up those frustrations with his closing comments Tuesday at the conference’s Eisenhower luncheon.


“There are some who have interpreted our new national strategy as questioning the relevance of Land Forces. There are others who would wish away a decade’s worth of hard-won sacrifice and expertise with false assumptions about the future,” Odierno said.

“To them I say: Our Army was created 237 years ago to defend this great nation and to secure the interests of the United States abroad. That imperative has not changed.”

Odierno and the rest of the Army leadership spent much of AUSA laying out how the service would adapt to the new strategy while also completing the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Army generals are quick to point out the 60,000 soldiers still deployed to Afghanistan.

Sensitive to the Army’s concerns, Deputy Defense Secretary Ash Carter made sure to emphasize the Army’s future role under the defense strategy during his Wednesday speech at AUSA.

“We’re building to the joint force of 2020. That’s our goal. The Army will have a major role in each of the tenets of the new [defense] strategy,” Carter told the crowd of soldiers and defense industry officials.

Army leaders outlined their role as being able to provide “presence” and adapting to the “human factors” of a conflict – two skills they’ve matured over the last eleven years.

“Preventing conflict demands presence, shaping the environment demands presence, restoring the peace demands presence, and more often than not, that presence proudly wears the uniform of an American soldier,” Odierno said.

The Army’s top officer said he expects future environments in which the U.S. military operates to become more complex. Soldiers have learned a great deal about dealing with the “human dimension” while fighting counter insurgency battles these past eleven years, and those lessons must be captured for future wars, Odierno said.

The service has held a series of meetings called Unified Quest with a host of experts inside and outside the military to include universities and think tanks. These officials have discussed what type of threats the Army might face to include an entire spectrum of possibilities as well as economical, environmental and cultural factors.

Those meetings have helped formulate the Army’s expectations of the future and what roles it may play. That future includes a wide swath of threats and challenges to include “regular warfare, irregular warfare, terrorism, and criminality all combined together,“ Odierno said.

“That’s what we’re seeing all around the world. So, in my mind, we’re moving the Army to deal within that context,” he said.

Since the Obama administration introduced the new defense strategy, much has been made of the Air Sea Battle concept that Air Force and Navy leaders have been tinkering with these past few years while the Army has been focused on fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Air Sea Battle is a joint concept that defense analysts say will drive the military’s future Pacific-centric strategy. Although many say its focus is to defeat China, Pentagon officials have repeatedly denied that claim.

Instead, it is explained as a strategy in which the Pentagon can meld power projection assets such as a carrier group or long range bombers to influence a region without having a large footprint directly inside it.

More importantly, Pentagon officials expect the Air Sea Battle office to have a major influence in forthcoming budget battles. Of course, the name implies the Air Force and Navy will control the Air Sea Battle office, but Army Secretary John McHugh said that would be the wrong assumption.

“You know the words ‘Air Sea’ lend one to think of Air Force and Navy. I think that’s natural, but Air Sea Battle is much greater than any two services,” he said. “I just want to be very clear that when it comes to Air Sea Battle, there is an Army role, and we’re pursuing it.”

McHugh made sure to point out to reporters attending AUSA that the 10 largest land forces outside the U.S. are located in the Pacific and 22 of the 28 largest Pacific-based militaries are led by land force commanders.

Configuring the military to engage specific future threats and scenarios does bring with it a certain risk – the risk of being wrong. Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates pointed out that when it comes to predicting the future, the Pentagon has been perfect, it has been wrong every time.

“The key to our future is our full spectrum capability and our capacity to go anywhere and do any mission,” McHugh said. “I have to believe that the Army will provide the hedge against that kind of risk in the future.”

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The fact is any Pacific war like in WW2 would not involve the Army as much as the USAF Navy and USMC. While the Army fought in New Guinea and the Philippines they often where not given full first resources in those campaigns all new army resources went to Europe (ETO). Most army projects mean squat ibn a Pacific campaign GCV ICC AMPTV are both politically driven by politicians who get BIG money from European companies try to kill American industry. The conditions of Iraq and Afghanistan would no be recorded in a Pacific war. Jungles swamps dominate the Asian far east and the pacific islands so BIG heavy APCs of today or what the army wants wold not be a large factor other than road support vehicles at most to infantry. Tanks also would not be a major factor as in WW2 the terrain would not support them. The way in the GW Bush year the Army killed or delayed major USAF and Navy programs shows the spoiled child nature of the army no crying that they loose there funding for pet projects. The F-22 JSF and tanker was delayed for years due to pro-army budgets the Navy needs new destroyers and Virgina class subs most delayed if not cancelled by the pro army budget. Any war with China or North Korea Vietnam (long shot) over island would need the Navy and USAF to win sea and air supremacy over the islands LONG before the Army or Marines where needed so Army can make do since there current equipment is far better than the Chinese for vehicles and or old Soviet designed weapons which are still great weapons in service for Russia. What the army needs is less Iraq war era ideas and crap from 5 years ago GCV ICC AMPV and more troop carriers helicopters with long range or maybe a joint USA USMC amphibious assault vehicles.

Overall this is just a blues and crying fest since for not the badly neglected Air Force and navy need full budget priority for next few years and they need it.

Lance, I think you have your facts a little wrong in your description. There were 22 Army Divisions in the Pacific in WWII, one more if you count the Philippine Division that was decimated during the attacks that lead to that nations fall. Those Divisions were the 6, 7, 23, 24,25,27,31,32, 33, 37, 38, 40, 41 43, 77, 81, 93, 96, 98, Philippine, 11 Airborne, and the 1st Cav. I know the Marines did a lot of fighting and I have served with many fine Marines, but the Marines have never had 22 Divisions. Jointly our nation depends on all services for the fight. We fight and win together as a team. Any long term strategy needs to be based upon joint action. War will never be one on the Air, Land or Sea alone.

The fact is, the Army shoulders the overwhelming burden in any long-term war. It’s odd that you would cite WWII (thanks John for clearing that up) and leave out Korea and Vietnam, not to mention earlier Pacific fights like the Philippines. In all cases, the Army makes up the majority of the force and takes the vast majority of the casualties. If the DOD is planning on smaller actions on a short term basis, the USMC, Air Force, and Navy obviously can fit the bill. A good recent example is the Libyan air campaign. But any major action will require a massive influx of soldiers.

The Army has a wide range of forces, from armored all the way down to light. And, unlike other services, the Army doesn’t complain when the terrain dictates a change in tactics or equipment. Not to get too deep into inter-service rivalry, but based on the articles I’ve read on mil​.com alone, the USMC and Air Force top brass has been pretty bad about this. Don’t want the MRAP, it’s too heavy, doesn’t work with amphibious doctrine. Don’t like the Iraq stability ops, move us to Afghanistan. Meanwhile you see the 82nd Airborne conducting stability ops and using heavy armored vehicles in Iraq and transitioning to dismounted fighting and stability ops in Afghanistan without complaint. This, despite the fact that the 82nd is traditionally trained and equipped for short hard fights. Not nation building, not with armored vehicles, but they do it just the same.

The Air Force on the other hand insists on new fighter aircraft, despite the lack of air to air battles in modern wars and the low level of readiness our recent enemies have had. “But what about future enemies?” one may ask. It’s all well and good, but we also have a proven need for more aircraft for close air support. Low-tech, long loiter time attack aircraft. The Air Force is still moving slowly with this but rushing ahead with fighter aircraft development.
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The point is not that the Army is the “best” or has it right while the other services don’t. The point is that the Army will take most of the casualties in any major war. That is a proven fact, what isn’t proven is whether or not a new sub, ship, or aircraft will be needed at all. In the recent wars, the Navy and Air Force especially have had to jam their current structure into the current fight. We launched tactical air support from carriers to support troops in Iraq in the late 2000’s not because we needed to, but because that was how the Navy was structured. Yes we will need carriers in a future Pacific war. But when that war stretches into years of slow fighting, the Army will take the heat. Thus, there should be a lot of focus on planning and training and building up the Army for a Pacific fight

One of the Navy’s primary missions is, and always has been to transport the Army to where the battle area. One of the Air Forces prime missions to to transport the Army to the battle area and then to provide the Army with close air support. As far as Armour goes. Army and USMC tanks were used extensively and were quite effective in the Pacific during WWII. Army Armour, to include self propelled arty. was used effectively in Korea and Vietnam. It was NVA tanks that crushed the So.Vietnamise Army in 1975. Don’t be so quick to write off armour, of which the USMC doesn’t have very much of.

If the Army wants to play in the Pacific, it will need to be their “Air Mobile ” units, for places like Taiwan and the Philippines. It will take weeks to get heavy Armored Brigades there, even the New Styrker Brigades. Look how long it took to get ” Significant ” forces on the ground in 91.

General Odierno: “Preventing conflict demands presence, shaping the environment demands presence, restoring the peace demands presence, and more often than not, that presence proudly wears the uniform of an American soldier.”

There is not one shred of truth in this statement. The availability of soldiers has created, not prevented, needless conflict, most recently in Iraq and Afghanistan, and soldiers don’t need to be maintained there to restore peace. They need to be withdrawn. There is not one square foot of terrain in Asia-Pacific that requires US soldiers, and that includes Korea, which Panetta has said is the reason for “the pivot.” . SecDef Gates said several years ago there was no danger in Korea and so he made it an accompanied tour.

Institutions that have learned to forget tactics from a previous war, only to relearn them painfully in the next war probably doesn’t have a domain advantage when it comes to learning how to operate 22 divisions.

You’d think we learned enough about operating in non-nation-state war in Vietnam to not make the mistakes we made in Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, but…

Maybe Iraq will be the new leaf, but we’ll see…

Still the army weapons and planning is for more desert wars in the mid east and lacks flexibility for any island campaign.

Im not saying the Army never fought in WW2 in the Pacific just saying it was the deciding factor in the Pacific war, navy was.

Still our weapons are good enough for the Army they can work in the pacific not the crap Generals want a GCV which all prototypes are none amphibious would be mostly useless in a Pacific campaign. And any so The need to update a aging Navy fleet is need for this decade rather than wasting it on Army programs which are not really needed.

Im not family is in Armor. Just saying the current Tanks and APCs are good fi not better for a pacific campaign than a GCV which would be so heavy it sink into sand and swaps pretty quick. The Army armor fleet is superior to all but possibly Russia which would be a none war factor now. The navy needs new ships and subs so bad so the army’s pet projects can wait a decade till the Navy can catch up with technology.

Bad to say the F-15 and F-22 can do the job but all other USAF fighters are old. Money is needed to update US airpower. China and Russia are selling newest MiG-35s and SU-35 to enemy nations and this could be bad F-16s wouldn’t stand a chance.

Amen, Jake!

“The Air Force is still moving slowly with [cheap CAS] but rushing ahead with fighter aircraft development.”

“Rushing ahead”?

The only fighter on USAF’s table right now is the F-35. Let’s consider how promptly the Air Force is “rushing ahead” with that.

– The joint program which evolved into F-35 will celebrate its 20th anniversary next year.

– The prototype F-35 flyoff contracts were let in 1996.

– LockMart won the F-35 production contract over a decade ago.

– IOC for F-35 has still not been attained and it may be as late as 2018 before that milestone is hit.

This is obviously some new definition of the phrase “rushing ahead” with which I had previously been unfamiliar.

Where is the argument? We can’t let this be about inter-service jealousy — it’s about credibile capacity to project power to defend national interests.Any fight will be joint; any “Pacific Pivot” scenario can’t be sustained by sea and airpower alone. The Navy and Air Force need focus; the deployed Army will not be mission capable without secure ALOCs and SLOCs. And let’s be clear — our Solidiers should never fight without air superiority.

Of course air supremacy is important but no war can be won without keeping the ground, then a joint approch is the best!-

It has always been the duty of the Marines to go where they are set to.. They fight with what they have, and make the most of it. If given something new, they adapt quickly because their lives drpend on it. They don’t sit around and argue about what is the best, because they make the equipment that they have work better. We suffer our losses, but don’t try to compare them to any other branch because we are Marines. We are ready to go any where, at any time, because we are Marines. Semper Fi

More crying over money instead of developing a plan with their new fighters and ships.

IWow, nice to know that we have defeated the terrorists and moving now to China. A war with China will not be fought with bullets it will be fought with currency.

Amen Lee I remember the junk I had to use (PRC-10) in Viet Nam as a radio operator and we made it work wasn’t until later in 66 that we finally received the PRC-25 which the army had been using for several months before we received it.

One has to understand what the strategy is for the Pivot to Asia before concluding what forces are needed. There probably are classified plans which most of won’t see. but the overwhelming issues deal with the sequestration effects and what kinds of bases will be available to the US. The Australians hae established that they do not want a carrier base there, the Japanese find Futenma occupancy objectionable, the Koreans feel the size of the US presence is sufficient, and Guam will become saturated. We are talking to the Philippines about using Subic Bay,but the closer we are to China, the more vulnerable we become.
Obama/Gates decided to move to Asia without considering the effects of sequestration and the budget.

Oh for peat’s sake, everyone take a chill pill

The reality of the situation is that land locked wars (Iraq and “Stan) will soon be history so we need to think about the future, and that future is the Pacific

Iraq and the ‘Stan are Army led efforts and rightly so, they got the budget and resource for the last 10 years to do the mission and the other services played a supporting role, and had their budgets and say reduced, that’s the way it should be with a major LAND wars.

Now we are looking at the Pacific which is 99% WATER and guess what, its the Navy’s turn to take the lead and the Army now need to sit back, shut up, take a hit on their budget, and play the supporting role.

That’s the way it is folks, you can’t change geography.

I see some post saying the Army is not suited for the Pacific type operations but lets not forget as other posters have stated the Army had a major role in the Pacific during WW 2 and they conducted the largest amphibious landing/assault in history (D-day). In fact, because of the North Africa and Sicily campaign Army General George S. Patton was the most experienced officer in the US military when it comes to amphibious operations at one point during WW 2. The Army maintains ships for such operations still today. As for jungle/swamp/mountain operations again as other posters stated Korean and Vietnam are good examples. Tanks were also used in the Pacific theater so equipment limitations can be overcome. The Army can deploy faster or just as fast with their airborne units to any theater. The Army has units, such as Special Forces, more so than any other branch that can operate with the indigenous population for the strategy we are pursuing (partnership/cooperation with other nations). Each branch needs each other and the neither the Marines or Army are better than the other. They have the same capabilities (with the exception of the Harrier/F18/jets) and more importantly they are on the same team.

THE ARMY NEEDS TO RELY MORE ON IT UNITS SUCH AS.. AIR MOBILE , AIRBORNE AND OTHER UNITS THAT WERE NATURAL FORMED FOR QUICK RESPONSE . THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE SERVICES HAVE TO GET MORE IN THERE HEADS ABOUT JOINT OPERATIONS FOR LONG TERM SUCCESS RATHER THAN WHOS TURN IS IT TO RUN THE SHOW AND THE MORE THEY JOINTLY TRAIN TOGETHER THEY LEARN EACH OTHERS LANGUAGE AND HOW THE OTHER ON DANCES.

Ohh ARVN armor did well early in 72 an 75 it was good old Ted Kennedy who cut off US arms and fuel which turned a M-41 tank into a 40 ton paper weight w/o fuel and ammo whch lead to a NVA victory.

And Current US and pacific allies have good tanks better than PLA crap in use. M-1A2, K1A1 Type 90 even M-60A3 better than Type 59 and Type 88 in PLA use.

I’ve been reading some post which suggest that everyone is the same no matter what service or branch they serve in– that just bull crap P. C. talk

not every unit, force, branch is equal, some are better then others, some are tougher than others, some are more flexible then others, some are heavier then others, some are faster than others, etc

The DOD is like a football team, not all of the 11 players on the field are equal in skill and talent, The quarterback is generally the most skilled player on the field, the linemen are generally the strongest, the wide receivers are generally the fastest, etc

so stop the pc crap now, the Marines are not the Army are not the Air Force are not he Navy, are not the Green Berets are not the Seals, are not Recon are not airborne are not etc etc

Everyone on the team has a role to play, and those roles change, Sometime the quarterback makes the play, sometime the running back, and sometimes the left tackle makes the play.

But what you cannot say that that left tackle is the same as the quarterback, that’s not reality folks.

On a very functioning team, everyone knows their place in the scheme of things, and the left tackle doesn’t go around complaining that the quarterback is more valued than he is. The left tackle is mature and knows his role.

Can we get away from this PC garbage and call it the “China pivot” instead of the Pacific pivot? And if there is a conflict with China the navy, air force and marines are not going to habndle it without the Army.

“the Pacific which is 99% WATER ” which is why it’s not worth much and why it isn’t the future.

Don’t forget the “standard” marine unit has problems when it gets outside its 30 square mile box next to the shore line as they are not structured to operate at greater distances

No Army force is the solution to every situation. Air Mobile/Airborne/light infantry are “speed bumps” when engaged by heavy forces.

If you’d like to dig your hole deeper try explain how the Army has lost flexibility.

Your ignorance rivals the size of the universe.

“The way in the GW Bush year the Army killed or delayed major USAF and Navy programs shows the spoiled child nature of the army no crying that they loose there funding for pet projects.” Uh you do realize the Army has lost as many if not more projects and paid 70% of the price in blood over the last decade?

It’s not the Army that’s spoiled…

Many don’t realize we’ve been using heavy forces as light ones for almost a decade. Mech and Sryker Infantry can step away from their vehicles. They are actually trained to do that…

You do know that Obama has signed off and promoted the pivot?

Oh, soldiers don’t start wars, politicians do.

Iraq is land locked?

BTW, all those sea lanes are influenced by numerous land masses large and small.

You can’t change geography.

Crap! You’re right!

They where not cancelled by the President they where so useless they where killed off by themselves by. But thre AH-66 and some other where killed off by the president. Fact is the Army has its head stuck in Iraq and is not doing anything about any Pacific campaign GCV is key in there ignorance since most current APCs can do the job fine now and they all are not amphibious so they would be useless in any warning the far east.

Easy no investment in Amphibious capabilities not investment in new air defense no new investment in a new MBT. All GCV and its wasteful counterparts are is repeating the same wars now we are fighter has nothing to to with future wars.

Your name calling shows your ignorance and how shaky your sid e is if instead of debating you go for personal attack on 1st question.

” Now we are looking at the Pacific which is 99% WATER…“
Sorry guys but PEOPLE don’t live on water — they live on land — Land Force will be necessary no matter what engagment you are considering in the world.

Joint operations will most likely be the norm but LAND FORCES like the U.S. Army alredy have a niche’ because most of these countries don’t have Navys or an Air Force — they have an Army. Army can talk to Army better than other services. Also Pacific Command uses the Army as the LEAD component for Humanitarian Assistance and Natural Disasters partnerships throughout the Pacific. As you know this is predominant in the Pacific as 90% of all natural disasters happen there. This is HUGE in the Pacific and the Army is the lead.

It all started and ends with — The Army.

“not worth much.” Sorry zak, but 95% of the world’s trade is done over the oceans and a massive amount of that 95% is done between the Indian and Pacific oceans. Pacific Rim nations are growing and consuming more of the world’s resources, so traffic over those sea lanes means more every year.

Don’t see how flexibility applies. Maybe you should have said amphibious capability?

“no investment in Amphibious capabilities” You need to google that. You’ll find you are ignorant about much. The JHSV program linked the Army’s TSV program with Corps HSC program. The Army paid for the first ship that was christened last year. Then there’s the Besson Class LSV. The last was purchased by the Army in 2006. Let’s not forget the 35 Runnymeade Class LCU and the almost dozen ships designated for Army use in the sealift command…

I’m shaky? You’ve got over 30 negative votes so far.

Well for a Corp of engineers ship yes but there praised GCV is NOT Amphibious neither is JLTV nor is any weapons NOT engineering programs. Even if the service has some landing craft there small in number and all the money goes to useless vehicles like GCV which is meant for Iraq again not the pacific.

Your personal attack all the time shows such narrow mindedness and lack or professional debate. I know you think the Army never makes mistakes and your service need all the penny’s of the DOD and the USAF and navy should got next to none. War doesn’t go by that. Army has its place but other services need BIGGER modernization now.

Debate its ok enough personal attacks so unprofessional.

It only counts if the Pres kills the program? Uh, you’ll find that ZERO Navy programs were killed by the President.

You have myopia when it comes to the GCV. There are more enemies in the world than just the Pacific area AND we actually do use armor on occasion in those areas. If you haven’t kept up, the threat to armored vehicles is a little different these days.

BTW, don’t be so focused on armored vehicles. The Marines pursue and field them also and like the Marines the Army deploys on foot also.

yes but GCV is not amphibious or the designs are not meat for marshy wet location all of them are meant for desert warfare, were not fighter Iraq 3 time over.I didn’t say the President killed all of programs but Army intervention delayed alot of ships especially subs, which need a major overhaul, most of the last upgrades where in the early 90s for subs many need to be upgraded or replaced by VA class subs. The Bush Admin did kill the AH-66 and the new none line of sight howitzer, though later they did allow not a new revolution in artillery but a better gun the M-777 155mm gun into service, and he delayed the JSF program.

We can agree some army programs are good WIN-T Rifleman radio, MRAPs, M-4 pip and M-4A1 upgrades. M-855A1 ammo for them. With the M-2/3 Bradley being better than BMPs and Chinese knock offs ot there. I dont see the need to kill the Bradley for a APC or the Striker with a foreign design GCV waste of time and money. maybe in 10 years a better argument can be made if hostile foreign designs catch up.

With cuts coming I doubt the USMC will have any money for any AAV-7 replacement they might update them for another 5+ years. As most budget annalists, I read on Defense news say.

“Army intervention delayed alot of ships especially subs” What facts do you have that the Army impacted the Navy budget? Those decisions are made way above Army level. Is it the Army’s fault there was a war going on?

“.I didn’t say the President killed all of programs” No you said, “They where not cancelled by the President they where so useless they where killed off by themselves” Since when does the President kill any programs? Why are you bringing him into the conversation?

Here’s a clue. EVERYONE suffered acquisition cuts. It wasn’t caused by the Army unless you want to blame the war on the Army.

Im saying the Army came clean from 05–09 because of Iraq and Afghanistan and some like Gen Ordinaro cant understand why other services now have to get much of the money pie.

Yes I did say some programs like the AH-66 and the none line of sight artillery where killed off by Dicky Cheney so the white house did kill programs in the Bush years.

“no investment in Amphibious capabilities ” Well I guess we go that cleared up?

I have never said the Army doesn’t make mistakes anti other services? No. I’ve condemned FCS, micromanagment and strategies that think all future threats will be limited to COIN type operations. I’ve championed the Marine effort to replace the AAVP7 with something less than the EFV I think the V22 is a revolutionary aircraft. I’ve been both for and against USAF decisions and I support increasing the size of the Navy. Mischaracterizing my positions doesn’t make up for your lack of knowledge of the need for the GCV, Army amphib capabilities or any of a myriad of other issues.

You say stuff that’s completely unsupportable and flaunt the negatives to show I’m not the only person that thinks so. I typically ignore your rantings but sometimes they are just to far afield to go left unchallenged. Ignorance isn’t an insult. It’s a state of lacking knowledge like you have for Army anphib capability etc.. I readily admit I’m ignorant about a variety of things. When I say something that is blatantly and factually wrong just jump in. I’ll be thankful for the education.

BTW, all those ships aren’t Corps of Engineers. On occasion they may have supported them though. It’s not their primary mission. Ugh, do some reading?

Again with personal attacks. As a Officer and gentleman you should never get stressed out and be name calling or (using the F-bomb (not saying you did here). Strange all my info comes from here or Army/Marine times or Kitup so if you dont liek what ime saying write the writers here and complain. The V-22 when it works is a good plane not to replace choppers but to supplement them is better. I didn’t say the AAV-7 was a super vehicles just saying its not going any wear soon no money for a new one.

I bring up GCV because its the Army biggest waste now. And is all based on Iraq not future needs and wars. JLTV has some place maybe when a smaller one of the candidates win instead of the BIG target models like the Oshkosh. But has a place WIN-T and Rifleman radios have a place. Upgrades to 5.56mm ammo and the M-4 are good. A upgrade of MRAPS good. a new APC when current one are fine is a waste which the Navy or Marines could use such money.

Your for GCV that’s ok we can debate just dont get into the low blows like name calling and cussing as an officer its beneath you.

Post the quotes.

As is well recognized, your mastery of the facts leaves much to be desired. No cussing necessary.

Have to look in archive then. But if that’s your opinion ok.

“Army came clean from 05–09 “? Sheesh… You think there was some conspiracy or something? Nuts.

BTW, after a decade of war there’s plenty to repair and replace. You just can’t get it.

hey Jay, how exactly does the Army “do” humanitarian assistance in the Pacific, inquiring minds want to know

repair yes, replace mostly no since not all weapons were used on HUMVEEs yes Bradley used in Iraq need repair but not replace. There no real leap over the Bradley IFV.

Mot come clean sorry bad way to put it ti got what it wanted threw those years now they can do with less.

Your going for attacks again im not nuts remember debate not attacks.

Not so much indeed, most of the water is never travelled so pretending like you have to cover every square inch is ridiculous. Additionally we should be proteting US shipping and not everyones shipping so that the shipping companies will return to registering their ships in the USA and not foriegn countries. As it stands now they have no reason not to register in a foriegn country to avoid paying taxes.

“land locked wars (Iraq and “Stan) will soon be history”? Wake up, there isn’t going to be an end to land wars so long as that’s where people live.

I say we put the Navy and Air Force on the ground in the Pacific the next time we have to fight there god forbid, I think they can handle it. I mean, if they want to be the big boy on the block, then let them be the big boy on the block!

Do you not know that after a decade of war combat vehicles need overhaul?

“no real leap over the Bradley IFV.” Really? Not ccounting engines, armament, IED protection, carrying the whole squad in one vehicle alone is a “leap” (and lesson learned).

Just because there was a war that stressed the Army doesn’t mean it someone else’s turn. Resourcing depends on the threat and the state of the force not who’s turn is next.

“nuts” hurting your feelings? You’re overly sensitive. Your arguments just don’t make sense. _

Not really there is no Russian or Chinese IFV or APC that outclasses the Bradley the Bradley is getting new engines armor upgrades ect and its better than crappy Euro vehicles which GCV is made up of. Now the war is over the Army can walk aside a few years and let valuable upgrades to fleet and air power. You must not believe in airpower too much we need updates on that much more than a GCV which bring no real advantage over the M-2/3. F-15 upgrades F-22 upgrades JSF needs to enter service DDG-1000 needs to come and more Virgina Class ships.

To you my opinion is nuts for others no your just stating your opinion. You love GCV.

In times of reduced buying power and indefinite austere budget environments, Army needs to make emphasis on asymmetrical fire power to maintain potency as it drops a weight class.

Army should focus top down on maximizing procurement of long range rocket artillery, mobile 120mm mortar and guided 155mm munitions and mobile pieces. Yes, as well as increased air defense capability.

During WWII the Army also participated in the Guam, Saipan and Okinawa campaigns in addition to New Guinea and the Philippines.

Instead of military service infighting we’ve got to realize that and one service cannot do their mission without help from the other. That’s why we have an air force, navy, marines and army. In today’s changing world each service has a role in any conflict, especially on a senerio of the whole Pacific Theater. I live in the Philippines and believe me, we would need ALL our forces to tackle a potential conflict here. With China spending so much on the modernation of their military and now having an air craft carrier, with many more being built we had better think this through and not make any mistakes as 3/4 of the world’s commerce travels through here. The conflicts with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines is going to get much worse with the growing arrogance of China in dealing with it’s neighbors. The bully of the neighborhood historically think themselves “superior”, especially to the “white devils”. Alot a stake here with a nuclear N. Korea run by a 28 year old and an agressive China that sees the whole of the S. China Sea as it’s own.

Aside from the usual 3 to 5 year delays typical of all Pentagon development programs, the F-35 is doing something unique. Normally, only about 4 to 5 systems (missiles, bombs, FLIR, etc.) are tested during the aircraft’s intial operational tests. All the other tests prior to combat certification are done outside the program, typically using operation and maintenance funding (not research and development). JSF wrapped in over 40 systems, properly ensuring a full transparency to DoD’s older flawed acquisition process.

That’s while the true IOC is so drawn out.

Most of these posts miss several key points. (1) China can have as big a military as it wants but it is hemmed in by Russia, the Himalayas, and the Pacifc Ocean. None of this has anythign to do with us. If Korean and Japan are scared of them, they are wealthy countries (from selling all their junk to us), let them defend themselves. (2) If they want to expand, our Navy can take care of them. (3) We would be absolutely stupid to contemplate fighting China in their territorial space. It would be pure insanity. (4) Protecting sea commerce? From China? You mean the China that ships all their stuff to America using their ships? Let them build a Navy to protect their own ships. (5) Let our wealthy allies spend less money on electronic toys and more of their money to defend themselves.

Lance, while the PLA still has quite a few (dramatically upgraded) Type 59s, the bulk of their modern force is Type 96 and Type 99 tanks. They are quite good. And the 105mm wheeled and tracked tank destroyers (including true amphibious ones, by the way, that can swim and shoot competently at sea) are also quite competent — damn good, in fact. I seem to recall that the last US floating tank was a modified Sherman. And at considerable loss of life, we sank quite a few of them swimming them ashore at Normandy. And speaking of sinking tanks, aren’t most of our M-60A3s now underwater reefs off the eastern and gulf coasts? We do have a lot of M1 tanks, and they are good tanks. But I would be careful of underestimating the force that China is building and fielding these days. Hubris gets good men and women killed.

We still have M-60A3s in reserve not as many as in 1997 yes. But im talking about US allies like Taiwan who use M-60s. Most of China’s tanks are type 59s. There new tanks the Type 99 is a copy of the T-72 which itself has a crappy record in combat. Tanks are low on the Chi Coms list since armored warfare is no a common encounter in the far east the terrain makes it nearly impossible.

Thanks for taking time to share it with us.

Torque:

You’re proud that the F-35 has been in development for twenty years? I think it’s a travesty. And why does the US Air Force have four strategic bombers? Why does the Air Force want both the F-22 and the F-35s? How about actually producing and fielding the incredibly effective A-10, continue to upgrade the F-16s and bring out only one stealth aircraft?

It all starts and ends with INFANTRY that has staying power — The Army. The Marines have their niche, but the Army owns more ships than the Navy and has made many multiple more and larger amphibious operations (see NORMANDY) than the USMC. I’m not against ANY of the branches, but all this inter-service parochial bull%$*^ has to end.

and Normandy!

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