Entire DOD workforce faces furlough threat

Entire DOD workforce faces furlough threat

About 800,000 Defense Department civilian workers still face the possibility of three-week unpaid furloughs on a rotating basis if Congress fails to deal with the coming threat of sequester in two months, Pentagon officials said Wednesday.

“There could be up to 800,000 facing some kind of furlough” after the fiscal cliff deal reached by Congress on New Year’s Day put off until early March agreement on how to address more than $1 trillion in cuts mandated under the process called “sequester,” said George Little, the Pentagon’s chief spokesman.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has been trying to avoid the possibility of firing workers “because Congress can’t do its job. Furlough is the first choice” if sequester becomes a reality, Little said.


“I can’t give a precise number on how many would be furloughed” under sequester, Little said. “We’re waiting for guidance from OMB” – the White House Office of Management and Budget, Little said.

Under federal law, civilian DOD workers can be furloughed for up to 22 days, and all 800,000 could possibly be subject to furlough on a rotating basis, Little said.

The fiscal cliff deal called for $24 billion in immediate cuts in federal spending, but the impact on DOD was unclear. “We’re analyzing that at this moment,” Little said.

Panetta was returning to the Pentagon Wednesday after spending the holidays at his California home, and he was urging Congress “to find a way to end sequestration once and for all,” Little said. “The spectre of fiscal guns to the head – none of that is welcome,” Little said.

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We have 800.000 DoD employees? That’s almost as many as we have on active duty around the whole world. So not only does it take about eight troops to support a front line soldier it also takes almost two civilians! We have a problem. The potential of furloughing DoD employees is just a symptom.

respectfully, sir, time for you to catch up on modern warfare. maybe we do have too much tail per tooth, but I’d rather have 800K civ + 800K ad with nukes, info weapons, space systems, jets, uav’s, helicopters, tanks, apc’s, trucks, a/c carriers, destroyers, subs, etc. than 200K civ + 1.4M+ ad with small arms. how much HQ experience you got? you might be surprised how many support units are operating below authorized manning levels.

The job could be accomplished with less than 1/2 of them. Trust me, been there and seen them in action.

You may get your wish … good luck with that.

Think about all the civilians who run garrison activities at each post, work in TDA unit which never get filled to 100%, and work in testing, acquisitions, and at the actual Department level to keep the wheels turning. It adds up. Even with 800k civilians, think about how difficult it is to keep a unit at full strength. I’m not saying those people are being used efficiently, but they are a necessity.

“The spectre of fiscal guns to the head – none of that is welcome,” Little said.

Perhaps. But apparently the spectre of presenting a balanced budget to the American public is even less welcome.

Yes, we have a problem, and it is much bigger than Sequestration.

When the American people reject every fiscal solution as too painful (except, of course, borrowing more money to finance their excessive spending) and reward a president who gives them that solution, what is a Senator (or a citizen) to do?

The system is designed to give The People what they want. It is a system of “checks and balances”, but if The People want to indebt their children to pay for their frivolous spending, selling their children into bondage so that they may enjoy the fruits of freedom now at no cost, there is no check or balance to stop them. It is a system of government suitable for a moral people, and totally unsuitable for any other. Hence, our problem.

As of June 2012 we have about 754k. However what no one wants to talk about much is all the contractors that are not official Fed employees. Add to that here some scenarios. USAF colonel retires from active duty at depot. Turns right around and gets hired doing work in the same depot office he just left as a “contractor” in the same cubicle-farm he just left. Here is another one. USAF Lt. Col retires from tanker unit. Shows up not long after as a civilian scheduling person. That old tradition, nepotism is still alive and well.

Continued: Like flag-ranks (976 admirals and generals) there is a lot of senior executive service (SES) bloat.
Also with the Fed employees, you have a lot of Dem / union votes to consider. Got to keep them happy.

Few mentioned above want to see waste eliminated from the DOD if it involves their paycheck. Service to country and all that.

To add to the above; Considering the economy, once you become a Fed employee, there is no motivation to vote for anything other than the Dem Party. The payback for the last election is of course, a pay raise for Fed employees and protection from the various Mafia Don’s by any other name. References to the Borg, assimilation and “resistance is futile” are apt.
The purpose of the rest of the non-government workforce is to serve Rome. The Government knows better. References to the book Animal Farm are also good.
10pc DOD budget cut over 10 years? As a Fed civ employee, many times you can move your stuff over to another cubicle and keep pressing on. Good luck with a bought-and-paid-for Congress trying to trim Fed employees to any sane level.

Leadership by example: LOL !!!!!!!!!! “Panetta was returning to the Pentagon Wednesday after spending the holidays at his California home.…”

Yeah, how much does that cost us per month to move him around?

Step 1: give them all 15 percent pay cuts across the board and eliminate all overtime. Then, lots of them will be so incensed that they will quit or take early retirement. Step 2, for those 85 percent who remain, so can (almost) restore their pay but kill all overtime. then another 5 percent will quit. Step 3, for the remaining workers, put them back at today’s pay scale. Step 4: threaten to repeat this maneuver every 3 years and see if productivity increases with your workforce. Just an idea… we’ve got to do SOMETHING to try to balance the federal budgets. Got a better idea to get the disgruntled to retire/quit of their own volition ? (and to save some funds as well).

tmb — spent the tail end of my career neck deep in that environment. Seen the good and the bad. There is definitely some necessity. They also serve as institutional memory in many cases but there’s also a HUGE amount of fat and just impossible to fire.

triple threat — You hardly make the case that cutting civilians means we lose all the “nukes, info weapons, space systems, jets, uav’s, helicopters, tanks, apc’s, trucks, a/c carriers, destroyers, subs, etc.”

Support units aren’t the only units operating at below authorized manning levels. BTW I have never served in an Infantry unit that was at its authorized manning levels. Welcome to the club.

The truth will set you free, often it will PI55 the heck out of you first.

So sad, so true!

It’s true and just doesn’t apply to the officers though they get bigger paychecks.

I imagine you did working at the school house. I’m in 1st Army right now and the civilians spend half their time educating the green-suiters on how the RC system works. Because we’re on the lower tier of Army sourcing we’re never anywhere near authorized strength and were the first to slash our budgets last year. The number of DA Civilians and activated Reservists has come crashing down. I had a Reserve LT come up to me recently looking for an activation or a deployment and I had to explain to him that in the last year we’ve come down from a thousand activated Reservists to a few dozen. The initial wave of budget cuts was rough enough. We’ve been preparing for sequestration and we’re almost to the point where I need the Division Comptroller’s permission just to buy paper.

If you cut 15% of DOD workforce salaries across the board, you would risk losing the good employees. Not the “Oh im sick 5 days in a row *cough cough bullshit* employees”. Punishing the whole risks destroying the good cogs and wheels in the system instead of the bubble wrap and tissue paper.

tmb — It’s a shame. The lower echelons and the RC always suffer from the cuts first. I’m sure there is no shortage of paper in the pentagon or if some general authorizes a new civilian slot he’ll be told no.. I’m a “live the standard” kind of guy and that crap is just unacceptable.

That doesn’t detract from anything I said though which is just as true.

I also wanted to point out that there are “lots” (a percentage that I cannot define outside of my competency, but it is above 50% where I work) of employees eligible for retirement in the next five years or less. Would it be that hard to simply not backfill some of those positions instead of punishing the current workforce with salary cuts? As to the talk of overtime.… that does not exist where I work, but I am fully aware of other areas using it and in some cases using it freely. That should not happen.

Almost everything. They are jobs that would be a waste of a good soldier or require expertise and longevity that a soldier may not be able to provide. The people responsible for keeping the lights on, the bills paid, the firing ranges operated, and the toilet paper brought in on base are mostly civilians. They also include medical personnel at the hospital, schoolhouse instructors, and people involved in acquisitions, testing, and simulations.

Anyone has a break down of what types of jobs these specific “800,000 Defense Department civilian workers” do?

Why aren’t these freeloaders being fired outright? There are disabled people laying on the street who are in desperate need of government funds while these clowns hold onto useless freeloader jobs doing nothing all day.

I think we should call him.…..Little George. And tell him to get a real job like cutting trees or distributing food.

Go ahead and fire the aircraft acquisition and test force. If that happened the cost of doing upgrades to aircraft as well as testing aircraft would increase by 100% if not more due to it all needing to be contracted out. All aircraft platforms in service are constantly being tested throughout their lifecycle to prove upgrades or safety fixes before the fighting men and women use them. If you cut out your LARGELY civil service test force you hand yourself over to private industry and all of their schedule slips and extra costs. You would be doing while simultaneously removing the watch dog (civil servants) that makes sure their ideas and designs work before implemented, which saves money.

I’m not saying all civil servants are needed, but all this talk of anyone who is civil service needing to be fired is silly and a bit ignorant. Also, those disabled persons who are veterans get first priority for being hired as a civil servant. If you are so upset about us freeloaders getting a job when you didn’t, maybe you should try applying/getting a degree. It might really turn things around for you.

There is only one major flaw to your senario. You mention the need to raise productivity? The problem with productivity and our budget soley rests with the huge divide between the house and the senate, If they were both working to solve our budget issue in a bipartisian way instead of playing the political angle. If this were the case we would not have the situation we find ourselves in today. I would also like to point out that that most DOD employees are supporting some type of mission, while productivity is essential to the given mission, less or more productivity does not equal more money for the budget..

I think you are all in need of some updated information. I would say that over 65% of the civilian workforce in DoD are veterans. And if you are currently on active duty you should know that most of the civilians you probably work with use to do exacltly what your doing only now as a civilian. What ever the decision is be sure that those like myself that have shed blood for our great nation should be given the respect and opportunities they deserve. So if sequestration is a possibility all veterans should be exempt in my opinion. I mean why have this huge veterans hiring campaign for DoD jobs only to turn around and issue a you amy certainly be out of a job memo once they are hired.

I would like to see where this “so called pay raise” is that I voted in? I have not seen a payraise in 3 years you idiot. If you read the news you would know that the federal civilian has bared the brunt of paying for the fiscal crisis by not getting a payraise while our health costs and the economy and everything else goes up. In fact, I don’t shop in grocery stores anymore because it is too expensive. I shop at aldis and save a lot. i am a GS 12. Oh and go ahead and fire me. I am a contracting officer. Who would you get to contract out for your services??? If I went to the contractor side, as a level 3 FAC C and DAWIA contracting Officer with 15 years of experience, I could make twice what I am making now easy.

I am a full time member of the Air National Guard and am a civil service employee in that capacity. I go to work everyday just like my active duty brethren wearing the same uniform even when I am in civilian status. I do not receive the same quality of health care or educational benefits as the active duty do either and in the long run make less. I have been full time for 22 years and could have retired 2 years ago had I been active duty but in stead I have another 18 years to go before I can receive retirement. Please do not lump all civil servants into the same pile. Some of us have a reason to exist. Civil servants in DoD also provide valuable continuity in units where an active duty member PCS’s in and out every two years.

Jack, you sir are a fool.

Contract workers go first before DOD civilians,they way more contractors than are needed.

Fine, lay me off and make me eligible to collect unemployment. I will be 62 years old next month and I have been saving 35% to 42% of my gross pay for decades by livng frugally.

My retirement pay at $2800 per month plus $1800 per month from my retirement savings, coupled with the reduced taxes that go with my reduced gross income makes my notional take home pay for not working larger than it is for working; and that is before any furloughs.

Add unemployment and Social Security to the mix and I will be taking home about 50% more than I am currently.

I am am an Information Technology person, a skillset in short supply. You would be _amazed_ at how many IT folks cannot obtain a security clearance.

Will DOD hire a contractor to replace me at about triple the burdened labor rate???

“Delusions are often functional.”

You are deluded. The invconvenient truth here is that federal pay has been frozen for calendar years 2011, 2012, and now 2013. When one factors in the increased cost of health insurance and the resumption of the 6.2% (up from 4.2%) Social Security payroll tax, we have had a pay cut.

In checking my financial records, I finf that I am now taking home $71 less per pay period this month than I was last month, and $120 per month less than I was in 2010.

Pesky iPad…

There is apparently no way to edit typographic errors after one has posted; at least none that I can find.

Yes there is fat in the budget and personnel could be cut, but it needs to be done with a scalpel not an axe. You can start by getting rid of all the free services provided to the members of the House, the Senate and the Cabinet that come from the Defense budget. They should only receive the military benefits due any service member based on their service. Make Panetta, Pelosi and anyone else pay the cost (based on current DoD flying hour rates) for the use of USAF aircraft, instead of the cost of a commercial ticket! Tell the Thunderbirds make due with a C-130 to move their support and equipment from show to show. The Blue Angels make it work so…

You wanna cut the budget tell the senators and those who work in the White House to stop voting for their own pay raises and lets stop paying them with pensions because we all know they they get full benefits after two years of being a senator in the White House. What we paying them for. They haven’t sacrificed their lives or anything like that they work two simple years and get paid for te rest of their lives. Freaking bogus

Panetta pays for his own flight and housing in DC.

Just think: there are about 315,000,000 Americans. If 800,000 of them work for the DoD, contractor or not, that still only account for 0.25% of that. This isn’t a big number.

Just a thought. How many people do you think the 49ers (or any other football team, baseball team, etc.) have for each actual player. I bet the number would be 20:1, 30:1, or even higher. Every single piece of equipment has to be ready for the warfighter to use when he/she needs it: armor, assault weapon, sidearm, electronic, logistics, transportation, orders, etc. Any one of those fall through, the warfighter may never make it home. Doesn’t seem like a big cost to me.

Well I have one thing to say. A good way to cut our budget would be to cut the welfare programs. If gainfully employed persons have to take a mandatory furlough to help cut the fat then some of the fat should be cut from those who benefit from the welfare programs. It absolutely baffles me how I am requires to get up and show up to my job every day and actually work in order to receive any money and then there are those who collect monthly and are not required to contribute to society at all. EBT benefits should be cut can’t believe you can actually go out to dinner with your EBT benefits. I thought eating out was a privilege. Also If you collect any sort of benefits you should have to get up and report to a job site whether you pick up trash on the side of the road or paint graffiti stricken buildings you should be required to earn that money not just be handed it monthly.

Right on. I wonder now if we as a people are able to maintain or even desire our freedom. We should be asking ourselves: “Do we have the fortitude to be free, or is liberty overrated?”

” If they were both working to solve our budget issue in a bipartisian way instead of playing the political angle. ”

Too late for that to happen. Our political parties are sworn enemies now, and neither side is going to play fair. Obama failed to unite anything, not even his own opposition.

Thanks Robert for sharing, and you are exactly correct on the continuity part. I am not even sure I can understand the “badmouthing” I read in here. I would venture to say the most vocal ones are the same that would be those “freeloaders” as they put it.

Each combat soldier already has eight other troops supporting those “armor, assault weapon, sidearm, electronic, logistics, transportation, orders, etc.” tasks. I’m not saying DoD civilians are unnecessary. I am saying the ratio is out of whack.

The professional team metaphor isn’t a very good one. The several dozen players that go on the field may connotate to the front line troops. Those supporting equate more to the rest of the uniformed force than DoD employees.

I’m sure there’s a lot of DoD employees that read this blog and my negative votes will go up. It doesn’t mean I’m any less right. We’re bloated especially at the highest levels. Besides the civilian DoD staff we have officers especially at the flag rank at twice or three times the number we had form WWII through Nam.

I’m wondering how many of those 800,000 jobs we could keep if we simply killed the F-35 and LCS.

Anyway, I am glad that the President signed the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). The NDAA authorizes an additional year to the current MYP for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet strike fighter and the EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft. The USN is getting 26 Super Hornets and 12 Growlers (with $45 million in Advanced Procurement for the option to buy more of them in Fiscal Year 2014). It also authorizes funding for refueling, modernizing, and maintenance of several warships, submarines, and the USS Abraham Lincoln. The U.S. Navy will be very well funded in the coming years.

The only laughable part is that it directs the Navy by June 2013 to establish initial operational capability (IOC) dates for the F-35B and F-35C Lightning II strike fighters. I can’t wait to see what happens when the deadline passes. The F-35 program has been the worst in history so far when it comes to meeting deadlines and meeting cost requirements.

Link for NDAA: http://​www​.seapowermagazine​.org/​s​t​o​r​i​e​s​/​2​0​1​3​0​102–

Is Know one thing about the VERA !!!!!!

they are also the people who work at your PX or Exchanges, C-stores, etc.

For those of you who don’t know how the federal government is made up, this gives a pretty good breakdown of it and what all departments these 800k civilians make up, it’s not just in supporting the troops. http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​U​n​i​t​e​d​_​S​t​a​t​e​s​_​D​e​p​art
Now if you want to know where most money goes to from the federal budget, you would actually be suprised to know that it’s not the Department of Defense! Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid expenditures are funded by more permanent Congressional appropriations and so are considered mandatory spending. Social Security and Medicare are sometimes called “entitlements,” because people meeting relevant eligibility requirements are legally entitled to benefits, although most pay taxes into these programs throughout their working lives. These Social Secuirty, Medicare and Medicad makes up 53% of the entire budget!…So, I would be asking why are we cutting the department of defense, instead of finding ways to cut costs and provide better health care for retirees and invest their retirement money in a smarter way!. Stop blaming DoD for the shortfalls in the budget and get knowledge about where money is really going.

I have read most of the comments and some are good points and some not so good. I am a Federal Employee and served in the Army for 30 Years. When I was in the Military, I thought that Federal Employees did nothing but take up space. Know being in the other side, I see the importance of the Federal Civilian workforce that support the Warfighter downrange and the families here at home. We need to focus the blame on our elected officials. We as a people have the power to fix this in the future. DON’T REELECT THE SAME IDIOTS IN CONGRESS/SENATE THAT ARE CREATING THIS MESS. If you remember the same thing has happen over and over again, but we still keep the same folks in office. Let quit blaming the President , he is only one person and walked into this mess. Congress and the senate is to blame. Lets get together as a nation and tell those idiots that we have had enough of their crap, and either do what we elected them to do or they will be replaced.

Where have “the People” been given a say in all this political hanky panky???? And don’t say our “elected” representative because they haven’t represented anyone but themselves for a VERY LONG TIME!

I work for DLA, a Dod agency. I got written up for doing work BEFORE I was told to. I got written up for complaining that people take 2 hour lunches

They are already doing that, at least where I work. I’m authorized 6 and only have 3.….….

“About 800,000 Defense Department civilian workers still face the possibility of three-week unpaid furloughs on a rotating basis if Congress fails to deal with the coming threat of sequester in two months,“________________________________________________________________________________Yeah well, the world will come to an end when the Mayan calendar run out on Dec 22, 2012…or is it the 21st, I forget. Now what is true, we have the weakest House of Representatives in the History of the United States, they wouldn’t even vote on “Sandy Relief funds”, because their “illustrious” leader thought the repubs were too tired for him to bring it to a vote…what a guy. So the sequester thing? I don’t expect them(house of reps) to even think about it, let alone get it done on time.

Amen!

And if this USAF Col simply retires and goes off to enjoy his golden years, all of that knowledge goes with him. I would much rather have access to his knowledge and skills than to spend 5 years bringing a new college graduate up to speed. That doesn’t sound efficient to me at all. BTW, the money spent bringing up this college graduate to speed is, you guessed it, DoD funding!

Overtime for Fed employees is determined mostly by project schedule. We ARE here to support the warfighter after all

So why are you complaining now? You chose to leave AD apparently. Did the grass look greener on the other side and now it looks greener back on the OTHER side? No, you do not get the same benefits as AD, but as you mentioned, you go to work daily in a uniform you shouldnt (When in a Civil Service capacity, you do not represent your service and have no right to wear the Uniform while working as a Civilian). When was the last time you deployed?

My husband is a DOD contractor and works very hard directly with the troops in Afghanistan but he sees waste every day as well. The government is not well run or managed. Business would never survive if they ran their operations the same way. The only way to correct all the wrongs is to go back to how this government was set up to run. Those in positions of power were not employees of the government. They went home and managed their businesses and ran the government of this country much like our Counties and Parishes do with very few paid employees. Congress as a whole has made careers of doing nothing but politicing. The system needs to be overhauled.

Contract officers and contractors in most cases are not necessary. The Military could do what Contractors do for far less. Increase force levels, restructure R&D and Acquisition Commands back into the supply chain. There are buck sergeants who are fully capable of doing what you do, I’m sure there is an O-5 or O-6 or 2 or 1000 who would do the same thing you do, are fully capable, and can do it for less than a GS-12. Face it, your part of Government Bloat, nothing more.

Is Jack short for Jackass?

Each year we face this issue. I recommend you set aside somekindof account to put funds in and prepare for the next coming year and money should be saved locked in to pay out to the DOD employees. This would avoid all the comotion. Cuts should be only on unimport things. We need to come together find a solution to hlep the homeless/poor lower incom people and have a back up plan to ensure we do not have tis problem each year.

I totally agree that lack of morals is the basis of our dilemna.

You forgot to add he comes back with a bigger paycheck too.

That my friend is called “I SCRATCH YOUR BACK YOU SCRACTH MINE” THE GOOD OLE BUDDY SYSTEM VERY UNFAIR TO OTHERS..

Agree with you. Not only do we have to train green suiters how the RC does things but we have to do the jobs for AGR slots that are never filled by NGB. Most of the AC senior grade NCO slots are filled with personnel who are preparing to drop their retirement papers or already have dropped them. Not much different on the field grade side either. In the big picture we have a very small number of DACs in each Brigade a few term-hires. Take away the term-hires, contract maintenance, and the DACs from this Brigade, it will be an extremely difficult void to overcome because of the experience and continuity the DACs possess.

Obo added 125,000 civilians to DOD. They should go before he starts cutting our uniformed folks.

Just make sure that all of Congress & Odumma are included in the layoffs & terminations.
Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander. Yet Congress & Odumma feel that they are all above the law. Just ask them.

DLA.…sorry, can’t you find a better job…I work with DLA everyday and they are the biggest drag to the system. Constantly loosing my assets, constantly slow in moving parts, they turnaround of employees is horrendous! But don’t get me started on DLA!.…

Joe, that isn’t goimg to happen. If you are a RETIRED servicemenber the system says you are drawing a paycheck so you are the FIRST to go.…

Agree with Jack! I work civilian contract with DoD employees.…..they are some of the laziest people you can get. They get paid way too much for the work they do (and they expect it!).

Your so full of it. Your eyes must have been closed

But not as much as contract workers get paid. You guys are the ones who need to be put on unpaid leave that would double the savings

DOD has a handicapped employee program and maintain a certain percentage of the workforce from that program.

You write: “…you go to work daily in a uniform you shouldnt … When was the last time you deployed?” Wow, I hope you’re not suggesting that Robert and other full-time members of the ANG are somehow doing less than their active-duty counterparts. Over 27 percent of the total Air Force civil engineering force in Iraq came from the ANG. Roughly two out of five Air Force aircraft deployed for overseas operations were assigned to the Air National Guard. The ANG supported Air Expeditionary deployments to Iraq throughout the 2000s, until the United States removed its forces from the country.

Here’s a suggestion. Get the economy moving again through infrastructure investment. Prosecute more of the bank fraud perpetrators. Do not allow defense spending to reach the unsustainable levels in the first place. Balanced budget is a pipe dream that may apply to you personl finances but does not apply to the Federal business of running a country. Many here should get out of your right wing huddle from time to time and read abour how our economy actually works. It gets awfully tiresome reading the same old throw out the bums talk when forcing more and more people into the ranks of the unemployed has gutted the middle class. And while we are on analogies, pulling up your boot straps is not a solution in 2013 when the deck is stacked against you by 30 years of tax loophole buildups and rampant reward for greed. I know this site is about the DOD specifically and my son proudley serves but the military budget is ripe with illadvised expenditures, programs, and buildups that are threatening to bring the whole machine to a grinding halt. It is all connected throughout Our economy and so are We as citizens of this great land. Enough of the us and them thinking. (Stepping off soap box now)

I am a DoA employee. I am not retired but am a veteran. I work hard and spend a lot of time at work to support our troops. I make less then $45k a year. 3 weeks with no pay would put my family on welfare.

It was stated above that “When The American People reject every fiscal solution.…..” When have all Americans been heard on these issues? In fact, hasn’t it been the left-wing, university-based, Solinski and George Soros media machine which have persistently sought to control what “The American People” hear or read, constantly attempting (and up to the present) successfully controlling the national dialogue? Also opined was what is a Senator (or a citizen) to do?” Well, possibly in preparation for complete loss of our American freedoms, we should begin to adopt a new language, like those of our creditors, who may one day call for debt repayment with the purchase of large tracks of American soil. How else will Americans repay the $16-$20 Trillion in national debt?

Bingo! Joe has succinctly described the whole situation. The People are addicted to borrowing and they think it’s someone else who is going to pay, not realizing it’s all of us (and soon our children and grandchildren) paying eventually. Better to start righting the ship now than later!

Welcome to the real world Government Workers.……we State workers in Nevada have been on furloughs for the past 4 years, 12 days in 2009, 12 days 2010, 6 days in 2011 and 6 days in 2012.….….probably 6 days again in 2013.…plus all our medical has gone up and we pay more into our retirement.….….so suck it up buttercup!

Have to look at this way when it comes to Social Security tax going up, Obama has for the last 2 years caused the Social Security to operate with less money for those drawing Social Security and this also included the NEW TREND of when your 2 years of Unemployement Benefits run out a lot of people found they could draw Social Security Disability benefits so going back to the 6.2% will help to cover those additional free loaders

Gee donot forget that those on Social Security did not see an increase for a while either and they make less than u do

It’s a falicy that all contractors make too much. I’m the lowest paid in the section with 9 DoD civilians (GS9-GS13).

So you would prefer disable people laying around inthe office doing a job they cannot accomplish due to their disability. Good solution????
You should actually think before write.

“institutional memory in many cases” you make it sound like a nice to have, when the fact is there are many functions only civilians & contractors can & will perform, a lot of which are nonglorious and non conducive to military officers with career aspirations to make general, which explains why they do not get done very well due to lack of leadership attention. now do you have any evidence to support this HUGE FAT or are we supposed to trust your anecdotes as gospel. there is just as much anecdotal, as well as actual evidence, of fat in the AD ranks. And while you allege there is this HUGE FAT problem, you fail to consider that there are many civilian & contractors who are stretched unbelievably THIN. since you need to have things repeated, i say again, do you have HQ experience? If you don’t, it explains much.

What makes you less right is your passing off your opinions as facts. “We’re bloated especially at the highest levels” That’s your opinion. Fact is, every slot is scrutinized, programmed for, subjected to affordability & budget cuts, and authorized by law. The manning requirements & force mix ratios have nothing to do with your gut instincts & antiquated perceptions of how many support personnel per combat solider is required. They have to do with both top down & bottoms up analysis of the whole force structure, organizations, and systems required to execute the national strategy.

Wow, you people bitch a lot! Don’t mess with my CS pay and military retirement!!!

Your president is an unmitgated disaster also. Liberalism is destroying America.

Good point. Consider the Tea Party. From the moment the movement was identified as a potential political force, they were labeled by the MSM as extremists, bigots, racists — anything that would detract from their popular message — smaller government, less taxes. Their popular message was actively and intentionally discounted and discredited by our supposedly impartial and unbiased news media. (Compare that to the favorable coverage of the Occupy Wall Street criminals.) Why? Because the left (from college professors to welfare queens to PBS commentators) are dependent on and addicted to big government subsidies. Sad, really. And even though the MSM bias is obvious, and even though their viewership (and hopefully their influence) is slowly diminishing, it is still very big, as demonstrated by the last election results.

“What makes you less right is your passing off your opinions as facts.”

What makes you less right is your passing off your wishful thinking as a rebuttal.

We voted them in. We as a people are at least partially responsible.

Even so, be of good cheer. Why? 1) Because God is on His Throne. 2) Because justice is bitter-sweet, and as the government runs out of money, those who are addicted to handouts will be forced to deal with reality. Refusal to deal with unpleasant truths does not diminish those truths. Those who cannot control their appetites for borrowed wealth, those who would kill the golden goose of free market capitalism to ensure the next golden egg of tax revenue is delivered on time, those who have said in their hearts “it is better to receive than to give”, will be forced to move on when the well runs dry. After all, it REALLY IS better to be the host than the parasite. (Atlas may not shrug in the classical sense, but if he stumbles and falls under the crippling weight of ten million freeloaders, the result is the same for the freeloaders.) 3) Because there is much more to a good man than his wealth, his income, or his possessions. In times of trouble, men of true character shine. Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

what makes you less right is your confusion of wishful thinking with understanding of the strategic decision making, PPBES, requirements generation, force development and legislative processes. Thank you for playing and look forward to chatting with you again after you’ve hit the books.

I love what you said! The only thing I woud change would be to allow the care giver of small children to stay at home until the children reached school age. Then off to work she/he goes!

Dang! The guy can’t even go home for the holidays without being lambasted? Its public service, friend, not public indentured service. Saying he gets paid too much is one thing — but ragging on him for cashing in on his leave time, to be with his family over the holidays, that’s low.

I suppose that is a matter of perspective. If it is a contractor freely using overtime to get a program that is already majorly behind schedule (F-35) somewhere close to back on track so that the program meets its objectives and they get their bonuses or whatever else for test points then I would say it is cheating the system. That’s what you get when you have a system full of people writing contracts that set the government up for extra costs.

Was that intended as sarcasm? Or is this incongruous mish-mash of thoughts really reflective of what’s inside your head?

You prefer that we fire these employees (who you claim to be freeloaders doing nothing all day) so that we can give the money to disbled people laying on the street (who will then do nothing all day). That was a joke, right?

PS — I like how you seemlessly transition between the idea that government expenditure decisions should be based on maximized return of value for the taxpayer (hence firing the freeloader clowns who do nothing all day), and the totally opposite idea that government expenditure decisions should be based on the need of the recipient (hence hiring people “in desperate need of government funds”). All in one post!

PPS — “in desperate need of government funds” — You should copyright that. The DNC might be interested. Unfortunately, this descriptor fits about half the population.

Same as Robert (federal technician), except Army National Guard: 04–05 Iraq, 05–06 Pakistan/Afghanistan, 10–11 Afghanistan. All three with bullets flying. All three outperforming active duty units in various metrics. Plusses and minuses– but you need to be fair, an apparently educated. In order to keep our civilian positions we must be deployable. And planning on heading back with 26 months dwell, yes we’re lucky to have that much…
–K

Hey, Rodger, get back to work! This site isn’t for working slobs like yourself. This site is for know-it-all do-nothings with strong opinions and lots of extra time on their hands. You, my friend, have a job. Now, when they furlough you, or you retire, THEN you can waste time pasting your opinion in cyberspace. Till then…

Keep up the good work. Thanks for your insight from somebody actually effected by the topic at hand. And thanks for your service. Now, about that living frugally (saving 40% of gross pay for decades) till 62…time to start cashing in those chips, eh? Especially if it involves a pay raise. You aint getting any younger. I’m just saying. :)

I dont see congress coming the rescue. They kicked the can down 3 more months they cannot fix this. Army must make cuts to uneeded programs and other areas to save work force.

Why don’t they cut the freeloaders that are live on Gov funds and doing noting. Using the money to subport the habits, not paiding taxes, and not looking to work. At least DOD employees are working and paiding taxes and are still in the system. Congress and there self intertest put us in the spot so cut them!

I was in the same boat. You just about have to pay just to stay in the Air Guard. They are realy raking the Guard over the Coals.

I think it is the contractors that get paid way too much for what they do, too many fat contractors that the company the contractor works for gets paid 5 times what a DoD civilian gets paid and the company still pays the contractor better than the civilians. The companies working DoD contracts are the one that need to get cut, because they are getting paid way too much for what they do.!!! Or more like what they don’t do. I use to be a DoD contractor and I know the company I worked for was get 5 times my salary, the benefits they paid didn’t add up to 5 times my salary, so I know that it was a heffty profit, and where did that profit come from DoD budget of course. I could see the owners of the company driving around in new cars, that money was overhead from the work my co-worker and I did. It’s still cheaper for the DoD to hire civilians to do the work instead of hiring contractors!!

Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling:

“I could end the deficit in 5 minutes,” he told CNBC. “You just
pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more
than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible
for re-election.

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds)
took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple!
The people demanded it. That was in 1971 — before computers, e-mail,
cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year
or less to become the law of the land — all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to
a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask
each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will
have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed
around.

Congressional Reform Act of 2012

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they’re out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social
Security.

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the
Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the
American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all
Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and
participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the
American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void
effective 12/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen/women.

If congress was doing what the people wanted then they would have solved this problem a long time ago. The people want a balanced budget! Does congress give us that? No.
The people want to stop raising the debt ceiling! Does congress give us that? No.
The people want that people with more money pay more taxes! Does congress give us that? No.
The people want entitlement programs (social security) to continue! Does congress give us that? No. Social security is still going broke, and will not last.
The system is not designed to give the people what they want, it is designed that the few knuckle heads in congress can do as they see fit to do, according to there beliefs and morals (or lack there of). They (congress) vote on the basis of the way they think. ie the congressman that spoke that all abortions should be banned even if it was due to rape. That was his religous beliefs talking not the people he was representing, because they were sure to let him know how they felt.

Network administrator, System administrator, IT professional, air traffic controller, a whole variety of jobs. Go to http://​www​.opm​.gov website (US Office of Personnel Management), you’ll find out a lot more information.

Warren Buffet wants me to forward this chain email?
Do you really believe this? Warrent Buffet certainly does not use
chain emails to get his views uot, he uses his bought and paid for
Congressmen and other elected leaders.
Anyhow, he is one who keeps saying how he doesn’t taxed enough
yet appeals his taxes. A great American for sure…

Keep up the good work. America is proud of you. I also served in the USAF Active Duty for 4 years and then 17 years as a Reservist. During all those years I worked hard on the flight line loading and downloading aircraft but I always felt like a second class citizen

And yet the vast majority got reelected a couple months ago. The people know what they want, but they don’t want it enough to fire the Congressmen not giving it to them.

I have a Big solution on how to save a hole lot of money. Get rid of all the temporary civilian workers that are working for the Military. Since 2003 their is a program ( Gwatt) or (OCO) that the Government has been employing these temporary Civilian Full Time workers for years. They are are payed out of a Different color of money that we are being told. I am a full time Federal civilian that see this is a big wast of Government funds what ever color of money it is. the program was to help out the units that where being deployed. I thought the Government money was one color GREEN

That is already happening. OCO stands for Overseas Contingency Operations (the war). As the war is ending, so is that pot of gold and the temp workers we’ve hired with that funding. I can’t speak for the rest of the DoD, but the temp workers in my unit have completely disappeared in the last year.

Amen and Amen! The purpose of our government is to protect its people from threats not give out free stuff. I’m not saying it isn’t right and noble to help our poor but we should cut those programs before cutting our defense organizations. Better to have a safe and free country than none at all.

I’m an Air Force retiree and a 10 year civil service employee working in aircraft maintenance. When I seen 800,000 furloughs, well, I about fell out of my chair. That many furloughs is about a 1/3 of the entire federal employee work force for all the federal agencies based on a 2010 census that I Googled. What I don’t understand is why the media says the “average” civil servant earns $100K+. I wish I made that much. I can’t imagine how many “average” earners it takes to come to such an “average” number like that. If we could furlough some of those people the rest of the real work force could keep our jobs.

The “people” didn’t get us into this mess! How about furloughing some congressmen? Oh, yeah, they are exempt..untouchable. All congressmen should have limited terms. Hell, they should be fired for getting us into this mess and not doing their job now! What the American people need to do is demand the resignation of every congressman and congress woman. Then elect new ones, but don’t allow them to contribute their own money or anyone else contribute money to their campaign. If they qualify with x about of signatures, then the Federal Government pays x..amount for their campaign and gives out equal air time on the radio and TV time. That way the “special interest” groups can’t buy the election. The same should go for every office including the President! Of course, that is if you really want to fix our government and get our country pride back. What happen to “America the Beautiful”? American the Great? I’ll tell you. Our own polititions sold us down the river for a buck!

Truth!

Yes, sometimes retaining the experienced people is the best course of action — it all depends on whether or not they are good at their job and actually contribute to the mission performance. But sometimes they are just well connected and shouldn’t be hired as contractors.

This is the best post I’ve ever read on this website.

I see nothing wrong with kicking the parasites to the curb before the kill the host.

Arbitrarily jerking people around like that is no way to develop a good long term work force. I hope you don’t really supervise anyone.

Once again, the DoD isn’t the only place big money is spent. Entitlement programs ar a far worse problem than the DoD.

How many employess work for the entitlement programs? Funny how facts like that are ignored. If we’re going to have cuts they must include entitlement reform.

I am a veteran but the decision as to who stays and who goes should be performenced based — period.

“The Military could do what Contractors do for far less” WRONG. In my career field (software development) the number of military who can do my job is minute because the military training is horrid. You can’t teach any person off the street how to design and create enterprise software in a 6 week course. The only people who come out with adequate skills are those who had them before they went to the school.

Don’t forget the ridiculous number of bands the military supports. I like music but the reality is that they don’t really contribute to a real mission.

http://​www​.snopes​.com/​p​o​l​i​t​i​c​s​/​m​e​d​i​c​a​l​/​2​8​t​h​a​m​e​ndm

Carlton Meyer had a hitlist of things to cut. He weirds me out sometimes, but it isn’t a bad list to cut. The bands are on that list.

Most “contractor” jobs you see are the ones deride as rear-echelon positions.

Every job that is essential will be filled with a warm body. If the job goes to a soldier, the soldier has to be pushed through basic at some point, require a military administrative system to keep tabs on them, and on retirement is entitled to VA care and all the other things a retired soldier gets. It also counts against the military in terms of manpower limits.

If the job goes to a government worker not in the military, the major difference is that their care on retirement is not the VA’s problem. The employee will also not count against the military’s manpower limits.

If the job goes to a contractor, then there’s a profit margin associated with the company that you bring in. The job doesn’t count against military manpower limits and doesn’t count against government payrolls, but counts as a cost incurred by DoD to hire the company. Obviously there are talents you can’t find in the USG that you find in the private sector: eg Palantir Technologies, the subject of a recent DefTech article.

Plus, he is now getting TWO government paychecks — his retirement and his civilian pay. And whatever happened to that 180 day buffer where a military retiree could not apply for a civilian position for 6 months.? I have seen so many retire on Friday, then start work as a civilian on Monday, without skipping a beat. Meanwhile, qualified applicants who might do the job better are never given a chance. Supposedly that 180-day clause was thrown over because we were in an emergency situation post-9/11, but still, eleven years later?

Oh, another crisis to keep the country reeling while the democrats continue to take away our constitutional rights in the name of saving the country.

Hey Lefty, as a federal employee, how many of the same assholes did you vote for to keep your double dipping alive?

We pay to fly him home every weekend. It’s disgusting. He justifies this by claiming the American public wants their Defense Secretary to be rested and unstressed. (Seriously — these are public statements). Cost is well over a million dollars annually.

One of the reasons we got rid of the soldiers at the DOIM/NEC. Aside from freeing up deployable soldiers, the troops can’t keep up with the training and certifications that go with the job now. You can hire a civilian who will stay in that job for 5 years or more, or deal with a lesser trained soldier who will leave in a year or two.

The majority are perfoming logistics functions (Maintenance, Supply, Distribution) at our government Depots. Air Force has three major depots (Ogden UT, Oklahoma City OK, Warner Robins GA) that perform Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) on our 5000+ aircraft that average more than 25 years old. On average each Depot has approximately 25K employees (95% civilian). In most cases they are the largest single site employer in their state.

All Very good and interesting points. Biggest cut to spending would be down the line and is very easily achieved…Stop Ordering Comptuers and Equipment with bogus warranties/insurance add-ons for 5-6x the cost. My Little $489 Dell Optiplex on my desk is onsale via the website, Instead the government contract makes us pay $6,000 per machine… WTF.…This is exactly why we are…what.. 16.4 trillion in debt. Our IT personnel do all the work on the systems, our electricians repair electrical components. Lets get away from paying bogus prices for equipment and machinery above and beyond the “gerneral public” price.

On the furlough days, this is obsurd as we just need to cut the spending, dont buy stuff just to buy it. End of the Fiscal year spend downs.…. STOP, if the money isnt spent DONT USE IT.…its FAKE MONEY anyways…just numbers on a sheet of paper/screen That spend down HURTS the deficet and the employees facing furlough.

Next time your forced to spend down money, lets give a big PUSH BACK and say NO, WE DONT NEED TO KEEP SPENDING.

and we all wonder why we all get laughed at by other countries.….

He says the congress is not doing its job, well the President is not his job to defend the Constitution.
Perhaps Defense Secretary Leon Panetta should look at the fact that Obama is not legally our President, hates the US, and rather send billions of dollar to our enemies in the Arab world than support our own troops. Perhaps he should act on that.

I’m retired Federal Employee 36 years, eight active duty Air Force, 28 years Dept of the Navy. It is not true that politicians can retire with full pay after two years. In 1984 those hired in civil service, including politicians were put under the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS). They pay into Social Security, a certain amount of their pay goes into a retirement fund and Thrift Savings which is voluntary and matched by the government. Yes some can retire after five years but they have to be 65 years old to collect it and it’s not FULL PAY!

straight bullshit. If you left today there would be no impact at all. A four star general could leave and themission wouldnt change a bit. EVERYONE can be replaced in government service even theactive duty soldiers if we quit picking fight around the world.!

A typical Formula One team has between 400 and 800 people working at the factory to support TWO cars running in twenty races a year. I think the traveling staff (engineers, mechanics, media) on top of factory workers, is around 50–75. So big complex organizations that operate at a high level of sophistication generally need a lot of people to make that happen.

I have been a fed employee for 29 yrs. my husband is retired military, our three children are AF. We are ALL staunch conservatives. We haven’t had a raise in 3 years. All three children live at below poverty level, as do most E-4s and below. Our taxes and costs continue to rise. And as much as the government will tell you we are overpaid against civilian jobs, I suggest they look to themselves first. Military must serve 30 years too get full retirement benefits. Congress, 2. We have to pay for our kid’s education and pay back their student loans, congress kids don’t. Wash DC is the biggest money pit around. Continuing downsizing has forced us to do more with less without overtime. And yes, lots eligible for retirement . I would take an early retirement but can’t afford it. They offer $25,000 payout of which I’d end up getting maybe $13,000 after taxes.

Allan, they get that from the net pay of all fed employees. when the majority make under $50,000 and less make over and above $100,000, it “averages” to 100k per employee. That’s all they see. They don’t understand statistics so it makes us all look RICH!! A better picture would be:
$30,000/yr — 200,000 people
$40,000 — 175,000
$50,000 — .….… You get my drift

Agreed Karen. Most people don’t actually look up where the big spending is. It’s easy to point at 800K civilians (thats all branches collectively). Many of them are NAF which means they basically make the money that pays them (commisary, exchanges, child care facilities etc). Many of them are doing jobs not appropriate to have AD do (cutting the grass at most bases requires a few full time workers, some may be low CIV levels and others may be contractors but they get paid little over minimum federal wage).

A lot of people don’t understand the contractor bit either. They think all contractors are making megabucks but in reality, most make about what an E5 does. The difference is the medical and retirement plans etc all fall to their company *not* the government so in long term real $$ you save money with them.

Your Boss must be a real —hole Mike in Public works Philly

And how many people in the US do not pay taxes 47% hmmm, how many people on public aid? Over 100 million! There are 1,481,017 documented people in the US of A that do not pay taxes. You question 800,000 employees PAYING TAXES?

They need to furlough Congress for a do nothing for us, I will be sending a message to all mt friends and family to votr them all out of ofice every election.

Wow…listen to the talk — I can’t imagine how some arrogant angry people who are not proud of the work they do daily can make such a bold statement about the professionalism of the dedicated DoD Civilian workforce. I’ve been a Career Soldier, Contractor, Private Sector Businessman, and now a Civil Servant. What I do for DoD and this country makes sense and is needed. DoD is probably the best Government agency that refines and eliminates unneeded positions and workforce. In any organization there are bad apples and people who get over on management…but they represent the few. We have the best military in the world because we pay the cost to have it. That’s our country’s number one responsibility to its people. So be careful what you ask for…one day you may get it! Many of those with critical comment about Civil Servants in DoD forget that many of those civil servants are veterans who still believe the service is more important than a job.

YOU need to get your facts straight Many veterans receive these benefits and NO you are not able to use the EBT card for eating out . I have never heard of one single place accepting them.

absolutely agree!

I am a fed employee and work hard providing health care…active duty providers come and go, are busy with meetings, TDY, leave etc. it’s the civilians who maintain continuity.

Jim I’m praying for you…knowledge and understanding…your comments are what’s causing the mess in Washington. I’ve lived under the last 12 presidents and supported them all after they took office, regardless of party — because they were President! I believe they tried to do their very best for and loved their country…the office demands that.

I wonder what kind of country we would have if you we’re President???

How many civil servants does it take to answer a phone? C’mon, they don’t answer the phone! I spent 2 tours on bases where I had to deal with civil servants. Some were good. Most find they can do little and not be fired. My wife started working for the VA 4 years ago. She is a hard charging, dedicated woman with initiative. She is thinking of leaving as initiative is punished. Most managers rose to their position because of longevity, not because they are capable or motivated managers. If you promote a hard charger with 10 years to a position over a slug with 15 years, the law suits abound. When it comes to civil servants, “that 10%” is the good guys.

Believe me, They should get rid of ones who are double dipppers who retires from what ever services they were in. These people should have not been hired. They got in because they knew someone in ether branch of service. That is why we are in this situation of furlough.

The Defense Department is too big. Its time to hire a hatchet man to whittle them down. A huge number of DOD employees at the top is a waste of government resources. As the military draws down, get rid of these high paid civilian jobs and replace them with soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, and coast guard VETERANS. Bye, Bye, Bye to DOD civilians who rarely have a clue what war is about anyway.

Some of the DoD civilian jobs being discussed here can only be fulfilled by someone with an entire career of experience.

“Its time to hire a hatchet man to whittle them down.”

We tried that about a decade ago by applying Lean Six Sigma techniques across the DoD and ended up cutting contracting and acquisition positions to the point where quality control plummeted and contractors had to be hired to fill the gaps.

The DoD already has hiring preferences in place for veterans. Quite a number of DoD civilians were previously in uniform. The jobs they do require the previous military experience. Not every DoD civilian position is “high paid.” Most of the civilians who work around me make the equivalent of mid to senior NCO pay. I have a retired Army Master Sergeant and Lieutenant Colonel working down the hall from me making less than they were on active duty. They do it because it’s still a job and they’re good at it.

The ones you’ve seen must have been a retired mil person, Some think they are still in and don’t cover their fair share of work. We bust our butts to cover military personnel for PT,deployment,school,sick child or whatever else might come up. The DoD civilians are the only continuity the military has, most military PCS every 3–5 yrs or less. Jack is an appropriate name.

I’m a program manager in DoD, and I’m forced to hire contractors to do a job that the contract would pay to fill 3 billets. The contractor’s work is substandard, at best. I have to either re-do the so-called work they’ve done, or spend months critically reviewing work they’ve done and outlining the errors they’ve made, and then send it back to them to fix it. Had I had civilian staff, I could work with them, train them, hold them accountable and get a solid work product. So my short response is, I agree with cutting contracts, creating necessary billets and hiring some of the haters on this blog — then they would stop hating!

Not in DoD — only entitlements for DoD civilians and military. Civilians support the war-fighter: in the war zone, back at home, they write, implement, and execute the policies that direct the day to day boots on the ground work. These people are important. I’ll admit that I get frustrated by some of the people I work with who just collect a paycheck without doing their jobs, but those people do not make up the majority. Here’s a proposal; let’s say we get rid of the dead-weight?!?! Their supervisors, managers, and colleagues know who they are. Hell, they know who they are! They aren’t doing anything anyway, so it wouldn’t matter if we filled their vacancies or not. Then, we’ll get rid of the supervisors and managers that have allowed this behavior to continue, causing us to have to contract out work. How about we face the unions who represent them head on and challenge them to contest these terminations and let the chips fall where they may? I’ll tell you why — because the cost of litigation to do such a thing, is more than what it would cost to keep them on. After all, we all have some finite timeline any where we go, right?

AMEN!!!!

That’s the best idea I’ve read yet! Send their dumb assess home and let someone else do their job. clearly, no experience is required to be elected to the highest levels of leadership in our nation. I would argue that members of the House and Senate should have to take a vow of poverty to sit in those posiitons. That would elimate any opportunity of bias on the basis of monetary incentives. Those who genuinely are interested in the well-being of this nation would be those willing to take such a drastic vow, and we would know they would create, execute, and enforce laws for the greater good; of the people, for the people, and by the people.

If you were written up for complaining about people who were taking extended lunches, then you have a reprisal complaint against your supervisor. Whistleblowing should be encouraged when people violate the rules. Extended lunches is a waste of taxpayer money and thus fraud, waste & abuse. DLA has great information regarding reprisal on their website, ironically. Luckily, however, because you work at DLA they would not handle your claim.

I served 22 years in the Air Force. I am a GS now. I now there are people out there not doing anything day in and day out.. That goes for the military and civilians.. I think we need to stop wasting money on buying things we do not need. I work in Finance. I did for 18 years in the AF and now 1 year in the Navy. We still are wasting money. I think we should start there. We could save lots of money. Perfect example: IG coming to an inspection, we need to repaint the lines or sod. Why?? I will never understand that. The base was fine for the last 2 years with dead grass or invisible lines in the parking lot.

The President didnt walk into this problem, he help create it prior to becoming a president!

Jen, I sympathize! Used to live in CA, and moved to MA no less! There was just a news article that was sort of embarassing regarding welfare in MA. A left-wing group filed a freedom of information application to get info on how many of the Bay State welfare recipients had not been signed up to vote in the last election. (Got started when ex-Sen Brown was elected!). What the information turned up was that there were literally thousands of active welfare recipients that could not even be located!!! (Nobody checked the North Church graveyard I suppose!). When you question the validity of some claims for welfare, it really tweaks ones sensibilities with “phantoms” get EBT cards! We also recently had a very low key (one day coverage in the news!) scandal here in DC where city employees were working and drawing unemployment at the same time!

Our welfare programs are here to help those who can not help themselves. Get rid of the fraud, institute a “service for welfare” requirement (and enforce both!) and you might see a MAJOR fall off in the cost. But then furloughs for government workers, particularly DoD workers, seems to be so much easier on the public relations front!

If that USAF Col did their JOB before retiring, wouldn’t he/she have passed the institutional knowledge down to those he/she led? Majors and Captains and Master Sergeants and Staff Sergeants (or whatever you call them in the USAF) don’t need 5 years to grasp a concept! Sounds to me like an excuse to guarantee the time-honored post-retirement double-dip…

We spend more money on defense now than we did at the height of the Cold War, and yet employ fewer Americans in the defense industry than we have since before WW2. In fact, the last 10% increase in defense spending resulted in a 3% decrease in defense sector employment. It seems to me the biggest threat of unemployment due to a reduction in defense spending is in countries other than the US, yet we are still on the hook for 100% of the costs. Go ahead, cut the budget. Hell, most of the “cuts” are cuts in name only.

IF President Obama would charge all those congress, House and Senate people properly to pay for
ALL thier quirks, parking, attendants, renting thier offices and Elec./Water …the Trillion dollars would
automatically show up.

With all due respect, some DoD civilians do work hard, however, some are wasting a ton of time to process any contracting request, questioning security measures that are direly needed! Additionally, their work schedule does not match the active duty, so by the time motor pool and other duties are done and one needs to reach the contracting office, they are all gone for the day…In my unit almost everyone works during lunch to keep pace, while civilians are closed before and after lunch “running late” or have another “farewell party” and so on and so forth…
The problem stems from civilians who are healthy, could find another job, yet, they choose to take those jobs away from the disabled veterans who could do just as well, or from active duty soldiers who — Oh, BY The Way!!! — are no longer PCS-ing every two years — please check your facts! The PCS moves have now been changed to 48 months, or 4 years — so what is the point having a civilian for 5 years when a military service member stays for 4 years anyway???
Not to forget that civilians get treatment 99% of the cases before military SMs…because they know the civilian who does the scheduling, or the civilian nurse who takes them in on the back door…
Contracting could and should be done by SMs simply because we know what we need and do not have to kill 10 trees to explain to a a civilian because of what regulation this is mandatory or that is not, but it will become a requirement as rules are changing…thanks to civilians who were not checking security violations properly…
Civilian guards — that is another waste of money — who refuse access to SMs without stickers on vehicles when that is no longer required…and we could go on and on…
The bottom lone is this: the wars are ending, the soldiers will no longer need “freeing” for deployments, so perhaps we should spend money on troops who serve and reduce civilian double-dipping…
I have been on both sides and have seen veterans who could not get hired because their jobs form the military do not translate into civilian positions…And have seen civilians who flat out lied about their qualifications and took a job from a veteran…to then get fired for incompetence…
Where do we draw the line???

BS lol, the job could be done with a third. but you were just being kind.

What a complete moron you are. I have spent more time in combat zones as a DoD civilian than I did in my 22 years in the Army. The reason we have civilians is because there is no continuity with military members…they move every 3–4 years. How much time have you spent in combat zones dumbo? A majority of those “high paid civilian jobs” you mentioned are filled with VETERANS. If you are going to b.…, then get the facts before showing how little you really know.

Chris, you are an idiot. I suggest you put on a uniform, pick up a gun and get your *&^ overseas, then maybe you’ll shut your ignorant mouth. Hey, you can replace one of those active duty soldiers and they can take your apparently less than stellar job. YOU can be replaced also.…..

You are definately part of the problem. What we need is to get rid of guys like you who lie about their service. Its time to put young Iraq and Afghan veterans in the Defense Department. I am not going to play your moron games of how important you are. It is clear to me that you need to take a hike and let these young kids take your job. All your experience is pure hype. Retire now and let fresh blood into the defense dept, and get rid of dead weight that is clinging to your middle. Old veterans have had their huraah, its time to help the younger veterans to take over.

I have worked for defense contractors where the Majors and command sergeant majors were working for a former specialist four. Its a waste to put a LTC is a job where he does not even break a sweat. Sure he can do job but how many coffee breaks does he get because he can do in 6 hours what the job takes others 40 hours to do.

You are giving me more reasons to slim down a fat defense department. Get these young veteran into these jobs and they will be tomorrow’s experts!

I worked for an IG for 2 years. The IG gets everyone hopping, and minimum standards are being met.

Your point is well taken. Spit and shine could become a minimum. Let inspectors instead look for real unit readiness. You should submit application to the Army Suggestion Program, I see savings in the thousands, per unit, if you fix vehicles but not repaint them every year for command and IG inspections. A new emphasis on readiness without the spit and shine makes sense and will save dollars.

With the war drawing down, do we really need a defense department that is larger than its Army. Let’s cut the defense dept as a percentage of real drawdown numbers.

I am already in trouble with the President, for suggesting he pay for Air Force One’s trips. But you hit the mark. Why investigate the senate and congress for corruption, when we can make them pay for their travel out of their personal budgets. When the country is hurting why give politicians perks anyway.

Jen, re-read the thread. You are implying that a post addressing a single person in a single scenario is in fact an attack on every retired service member who gets back into the game as a civilian. That is not the case. It IS an attack on anyone who fails to properly train their subordinates in order to make themselves more “hireable” as a GS or contractor.

I think they ought to give serious consideration to cutting the airheads we have in congress and their pay before messing with any civilian jobs associated with the military. I think everyone can see that they are not doing their job. Also Congress persons(Pelosi, etc) should not be able to use AF Planes and Tax payers fuel to fly back and forth to their home. The President is the only one that shoud have that privilege. Make Welfare people take drug test before they can have a free check issued to them.Probably 65–75 % are on drugs and are worthless

first furlough should be the Prez and VP, then congress

In the case of my unit, that retired LTC is doing a job that specifically requires someone with his longevity and experience (it’s similar to a brigade S3 position). If a retired LTC is doing a GS-6 or 7 job just to pass the time I agree with you that’s a little strange.

A lot of the civilian DOD employees are VETS. It’s easier for them to get hired at a gov’t job because they have veterans preferance. I work at a Naval Shipyard and i would guesstimate that a little more than half the workforce has previous military experience.

You got it damn right, Freetothink, I, myself, a disabled war veterans with 2 Master degrees and when ever I apply for a federal job I get overlooked for a civilian employee who happen to know an insider in OPM or the hiring agency. The 10% preference points are a joke, no one in the federal HRO’s use them. And even when they do, nepotism will prevail during the interviewing phase. Federal agencies need an extensive audit to trim the fat and hire those deserve to be hired not those who manipulate the system.

Has a former DOD 1st line supervisor that SPENT 35 years working on aircraft and supporting the fleet, forced to work countless weekends of overtime to make aircraft schedules, I would like to enter this fray. I had countless encounters with employees that acted as if their job was an entitlement ( sound familiar), then have to spend countless hours taking action to “correct” the problem, only to have the union appear with their grievance in front of the base CO and openly lie in order to have the disciplinary actions reduced or removed. We have many great employees, but there are a lot of bad apples in the cart, focus on removing the bad apples, not punishing the good ones.. The system needs a major overhaul, we spent many, many hours working streamlining our processes and leaning out the fat to stay competitive and get the most for the tax payers dollar.

they had already cut the fire fighting force to an in my opinion unsafe level. the DOD and American public are getting more than what they pay for. We are doing more with less. Cut fire fighter pay, you can go kiss your you know what!

All I have to say is the comment on elect officials receiving benefits after two years is rediculous spent twenty-one years serving my country and they do two years and never have to pay for medical or know what it is like getting a little ass retirement check and have to pay medical, dental and many other items. I don’t get to travel constantly and DOD pays for it.

I spent over 28 years in the US Air Force prior to retireing. I came to work early and went home late. When I came to work with the DOD as a civilian I thought that I would have one of those “do nothing jobs” the Jack refers to. I have now been a civil service employee for almost 12 years. I come early and go home late. As a supervisor I can have up to 24 hours of credit hours earned on the books. Many hours of my earned credit hours are forefited. I welcome a formula from Jack that will allow me to get the job that me and the folks that work for me can utilize just to accomplish our jobs with the personnel that we have let alone with half the people as Jack suggests.

As usual are political agendas dictating are lives. Remember all the talk no taxes, jobs etc and here we are.Tis country is just not what it was because of politicians. we can spend billions overseas but cannot take care of our own. I cannot imagine what this country will be like in 2 generations or less. As a veteran, retired I can only say what I did was hopefully for my brothers, family and I have to question my country.

Furlough is not the solution to DOD. I believe it would be a danger to our National Security. I grew up in Navy life and I am a recently laid off contractor for NUWC. Yes there is waste in DOD but no different than in the private sector. I believe a solution would be to strip Congress of their benefits for two or more months. I’m sure they will come up with a different solution to the National deficit and balancing the budget.
I believe that our veterans should get precedence in getting DOD jobs, they have served our country. We don’t do enough for our veterans like other countries around the world do. I believe cutting our defense is cutting our freedoms and what will become of America when we do not have the defense to protect this nation.

“We don’t do enough for our veterans like other countries around the world do.”

If anything, we do *more*, but we have more vets and the nature of their injuries runs the gamut from psychological to varying degrees of physical wounds. In other countries vets can tap military medical care or the welfare state’s national health system.

If you want to cut costs for any workforce (even the government). Use temps and turn a blind eye?
http://​openchannel​.nbcnews​.com/​_​n​e​w​s​/​2​0​1​3​/​0​1​/​0​6/1

Yep, fire all those auditors at the Defense Contracting Agency. Fire all those scientist at Defense Advance Research Projects Agency (DARPA). Fire all those accountants at Defense Finance and Accounting Services. Fire all the Spooks and analysts at the Defense Intelligence Agency. Dump the logistic management specialists at Defense Logistic Agency. Get rid of the analysts at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, and let them get jobs working on Google Map. Yep… just dump the lot.

There is fat in the DoD to cut. There always saving to be made in new procurements. There are places in the world we should consider withdrawing from. But foolish comments like fire the lot of them, or eliminate half the positions should do some thinking before they spout off.

I have not seen a pay raise as a federal employee in sometime myself. I hope I am not a redundant federal employee as some responding have alluded. I am a RN taking care of military children. I consider that a privledge as a former military “brat” and could make more in private practice, but chose a higher purpose. What I don’t understand, is there are many people responding to why we need federal workers or contracted personnel. I did not read but one response on the need to trim the large amount of fat from the entitlement programs and the hugh tax burden placed on us by a group of out of touch and greedy politicians who don’t think it’s necessary to furlough themselves, or placed themselves on ObamaCare, or take a tax punch to the gut. So before we go taking that fifth point off the AF star insignia that stands for AD, Guard ‚Reserve, Retirees and civil service, let’s think long and hard. We are all DOD employees–all “800,000″ of us. :)

Exactly. It is easy to blame others. We all known that Politicians continue to lack virtue, but do nothing to either change our votes or inform others to change theirs. I often wonder if the wayward spending is a result of a disconnected politician, or are they just representing American’s own poor personal finances, such as living from paycheck to paycheck, mortgages underwater or credit cards with an average balance of $15,418 in 2012.

Your right, performance base is the only way to determine who stays and who goes. But it will never happen. Friends and friends of friends will be the absolute last to go.

You can’t train someone to be a good contracting officer in 2 years. You can train someone to do paperwork, but that is a lot different than being good at the job. they have to know the contracting side and procurement side as well.

Hell, instead of doing that, they’ll cut the number of fighting men so they can finance more of these crappy weapons development programs. It is unbelievable the kind of bs the military industrial complex is able to pull.

I am an Airforce civilian, used to be an Army Sergeant. I have never seen so much fraud waste and abuse in my life. Lay me off for 3 weeks if you need too.

The only people I see with guns to their head is the US taxpayer. You try not paying your taxes and see who comes to your door. It won’t be the Tooth Fairy. This country was supposed to be a union of states. Instead it is a “one size fits all”, Washington DC, winner-take-all, tyranny of the majority. I say we repeal the 16th amendment! That’s the only way to put Washington DC back in its place. We should have never given the federal government the power to tax individuals. That was a huge mistake, and really if you read the 16th amendment, it was a mistake easily made because the statement in the amendment is so obscure. Now that we know it means the federal government owns all of everything you will ever make during your life, and all your children will ever make during their lives, it is clear we need to take that power back away from the feds. Let the live on tariffs and taxes on the states like the founding fathers intended.

We will never be able to cut government as long as we have all these contractors doing the jobs that government employees should be doing. That’s the stupidest thing ever. A large part of the “salaries” the people who work for the contractors make goes to make the CEO of the contracting company rich. Rich people have plenty of money to use for kickbacks and bribes to government officials. So what do they lobby for, smaller government? Hell no! They lobby to get an ever bigger slice of the tax pie. It’s ironic that Regan got behind the outsourcing of government jobs to reduce costs and improve services, but he didn’t look at the inherit conflict of interest this kind of outsourcing brought as baggage. He’s probably rolling over in his grave right now seeing the unintended consequences of the policies he championed.

We don’t choose to wear the uniform as civilians. This was mandated by law and regulation. We proudly wear it when we perform military duty — for 12 Unit Training Assembies and 15 days of Training a year. Many have been deployed numerous times. Usually you can’t tell the difference between AD and Reserve or Guard except we are more experienced. and older. And according to the regulation we are held to same standards as AD without the benefits.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

It starts with talking about “incomes”, but appends the caveat of “from whatever source derived”. And they don’t even say who or what they are collecting taxes from.

Sadly, nepotism is prevalent in the “free market” system government is supposed to emulate; with very little resource.

I agree with Adam. a GS 13 supervisor in our organization sits behind closed doors a plays with her iphone the entire day.

exempt, seriously???? so i won’t be able to take care of my family just so all the retirees I work with can continue to take care of theirs. Not a good solution.

Jack so have I and that is truer then you think… maybe some contractors will slow down in numbers that will save millions… Mitt was going to do this “Smart” approach. . draw down. . who we dod not need and keeping what we don’t and doing that covertly not telling the world that we are pulling out, our econemy is great so we do not need military. . too much telling the other side what we are doing. . seems to me that is treason…issue. .

You hit the nail right on the HEAD! American’s have become spoiled little brats who for well over 30 years have been selling out our future so they can reap massive benefits they haven’t earned and refuse to pay for! Our citizenry is utterly clueless about the US Constitution, economics, our bogus fiat monetary system (ponzi scheme), and other government matters that requires critical thinking skills our dysfunctional school system no longer teaches (less than 20% of senior college students can pass a civics exam), yet they’re literally controlling this country!!! Our government IS NOT FREE — ITS DARNED EXPENSIVE, and until the People wrap their brains around this fact America will go bankrupt in less than 20 years—this not sustainable! Every child born in America is slapped with an $80,000 IOU for government spending they had no part in—its despicable, outrageous and goes against everything America once stood for! Shame on us.

DoD needs to figure out *why* it needs a job to go to a soldier vs a DoD employee vs an outside contractor.

Outside contractor-deliver finished package, ready to go solution (or a job that can’t be done by a DoD civilian or a soldier, eg delivering supplies through Pakistan)
DoD employee-do a job that can be done without a contractor, but doesn’t require a soldier
Soldier-do a job that ideally would be done by a soldier.

Edit: That said, the wage a contractor gets is often far less than the contract money/worker at the end of the day. Chances are, the worker’s pay is comparable to the government worker in place, but the company takes the rest home as profit.

Joe, your take on veteran’s in the civil service capacity is a little large. Based on a survey done by OPM, only about 35% are veteran’s. And if you work for the Department of Veteran Affairs, the precentage is even lower to about 18%. Sad, but true.

What a load of BUNK. Both PARTIES have engaged in this ridiculous spending behavior, whereas the Republican party is just as happy to spend money they haven’t collected in the form of taxation on their pet projects, such as the endless military excursions, war, Homeland Security and dozens of other agencies/laws they have added to the government dole over the past few decades along with the Democrats! We need to GUT the government in every sector of defense, healthcare, welfare (including corporate), nation building, etc. America is now the largest DEBTOR NATION—this is not sustainable nor something Americans should be proud of regardless of what stupid political party one is affiliated with!

I thought the economy was getting better. Fiscal Cliff issue…Maybe.
This could be used as a cost savings for the President’s vacation in Hawaii.
Yeah, that double flight from Wash DC to Hawaii (2X) in 72 hours.
Last year, the President (GET THIS) racked up $1.4 Billion in spending perks
on a $250,00/year salary!

just cut the dod in half, it would run ALOT better and much cheaper!!

15% across the board? Unlikely.

Tell the GS-5 or 6 people making $30-45k/yr that the will now make $25-38k. That’s a big hit.

I’d rather see it spread out more. say 1% for each GS grade, so a G– 5 looses 5%($1.4-2k), a GS-10 looses 10%($5.3–6.9k), and a GS-15 drops 15%($17–22.5k).

And do it across the board for all federal employees, not just the DoD. As a whole the system is top heavy, so the net result would be above 10%.

BTW, that would give me about $225 less every week.

I’ve been trying for over 11 years to become a government employee, yes I am 30% disabled veteran, and highly qualified, but what I’ve found is they hire their non-qualified or low-qualified friends. I’ve even seen where someone from a particular race only hires their race. And, don’t let me get started on people from another country who passed the US Citizenship and get preference over a retired veteran. The same veteran while in service who was told if you retire, you have free medical for life, yeah, that didn’t even last until I retired.

You say quit blaming the President, wait a few months and you wouldn’t say the same thing!!!! He has a plan that is going to really make you love him, so much that we will all be moving to Russia!!!!!!! Get my email and you can tell me how dum I am in six months, to a year!!! We will no longer be United in anything that we do!!!
He will figure out away to have a third term, and the idiots in america will go along with it!!!!!!!!!!!!! America is not head down the path, that it was when I was a young man. At 57 I feel like I“M in another Country, that doen’t like America! NO SPRIT FOR OR COUNTRY UNTIL SOMETHING GO’S WRONG! AND WE GO BACK TO THE SAME THING, WHAT I MEAN IS, LOVE OF COUNTRY, WOULD DIE FOR IT!!!

DoD Civilians are the continuity. They don’t have to do PT and Staffy Duty so theyre readily available. The first person after your Drill Sergenat you meet in Basic training is a Civilian. Not all D0D Civilians are GS-12 and above. Jus like the Military isn’t all E-7 and above. I’m Retired Army and a DA Civilain now. i always respected what they did when I was in uniform. Manyof the people on here complaining that we should be cut will eat those words once they come out of uniform and are ready to take that transferrable skill to the government., if they choose to do so. I Agree that a cut is necessary because the wars are drawing down and the uniform troops are downsizing as well. The real problem is the lack of Congress to come up with a viable plan. I don’t applaud anyone being out of work. We’re all on the same team to support troops and Defend the Constitution.

Where and what field?
Doesn’t match with the process as I experienced it. (just a few years ago).
I knew absolutely nobody here, and lived 4 hours away in another state.
I just filled out the stuff online and ~4 months later I got called for an interview.

As a vet you get a preference. There is no preference for anyone above that of a 30% + disabled vet.
Other disabled vets get the same 10 point preference, but you end up higher in the list then other vets.

But, your resume (and what you fill out online) has to score well enough. So a less qualified non-vet can get a much higher score than you (because they hit all the right buzz words and you didn’t) such that the hiring manager never sees your resume.

tHAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING AT MANY UNITS! bACKFILL JOBS HAVE BEEN ELIMANTED IN MANY INSTANCES!

Specifiacally the Depot facilities are all civilian save for a few military for command and oversight. Try tasking active duty with repairing you aircraft and tanks.……while you’re military are on the front lines. That is why those jobs have always been tasked to civilians because the military are deployed!

Civilian Contractors are the highest paid, do nothing outfit going. Talk about a rackett.

A few years back, before being promoted to a full time position I was subject to lay-offs up to 6 months at a time. During one of those layoff periods the Government hired a contractor to do our job of removing snow from the airfield, it cost Uncle Sam $250,000, but only took the contractors a few weeks to accomplish then they where gone. That money could’ve paid our wages for 2 full years.

Agree with Lefty. Only way to fix this is to fire all of Congress and then have the new crew pass a Constitutional Amendment that says they can’t pass any laws they aren’t subject to themselve.

Not only that, but an $80,000 IOU with a variable interest rate!..The interest rate is very low at the moment, but won’t stay that way for long! Right now, we are living large, charging up the credit card, with no pain. The popular sentiment is that those who object are nothing but pessimistic doomsayers. “What’s all the fuss about? This debt ain’t so bad. I’ve got an HD TV, a new cell phone, etc. Life is good. Stop complaining. (What are you so upset about? Are you a racist or something?)” BUT…When the bills start coming due and the gov starts printing money to pay their debts, inflation will be back with a vengeance, and interest rates will rise to match. (In other words, things could snowball, and your 20 years could become 5 years in a hurry. I hope not, but it’s hard to tell.)

When your taxes don’t even pay the interest on your $80,000 IOU, you are effectively (and permanently?) enslaved by your creditors. Proverbs 22:7 warns us — the borrower is slave to the lender.

Agree, I feel like I’m role playing in the sifi movie “Planet of the Apes”.
But it’s not a dream.…It’s real.

GS-09 starts about 38k a year and theGS-13 make about 84k starting. I am an GS-11 a Informations Technology person and a supervisor I had several contractor working for me at 80–120 k we were paying the contract 170k per person I also have known a lot of 12 and 13 that don’t do much in the HQ’s and CO Comms they should get GS 7–9 pay, but they figure they are at the policy leave there should have higher grades. The old thing happening COL BOB is retiring well we have to get him a 13 or higher position. I have been offered twice my wage to go to the commercial side, but love my country and want to support it even getting a lower pay for my services.

Well Obviously most of these comments are coming from those that have no knowledge of the importance of the civilian work force. (For Instance “YOUR PAY” Who do you think process’s that? VA support, the free medical care you get who do you think is working to provide that?) so no problem lets cut them all. Wonder how critical you will be when your check doesn’t arive on time? Are next time you want to go to the VA hospital and get your free Med’s and there isnt one to be found?
The over reacting and making comments before one thinks the action through… Gee thats kind of what has us in this position from what i can see. Action with out thought is exactly what our elected officials are doing.
Furlough? well obviously 22 days Off versus “no” job would in my mind be a much better choice? So maybe just maybe he is thinking something through for a change?

Sad we as a Nation spend BILLIONS/ TRILLIONS/ZILLIONS on other countries to help rebuild , provide security, humanitarian relief etc. When it comes to doing what’s fiscally right for America and Americans that old GREED and screw the other guy mentality pops up and cuts the throat of progress.

Sure hope all those SOB’s in Congress are replaced in 2014 by folks who are willing to do what’s in the best interest of the Nation not for the guy who donates the most to their campaign.

Good analogy.

The average multiple for contracts is 2X which means we are paying the contractor twice what they are paying you. I’ve worked as a contractor and I made significantly more money than I do now as a GS. The problem is the company on looks for profits.

You need to add all the extras to your pay before you compare it to the contract rate.

Pull out your LES. First add the government paid benefits: health insurance, life insurance, SS, Medicaid, FERS(retirement), and TSP.

No add your leave accrual, annual and sick, so 8, 10, or 12 hours, and multiply by your hourly rate.

So, now you have all the extras pn a per pay period basis. Now, multiply by 26 and add that to your base pay + localaty pay.

My benefits add 42% of my basic pay. So while that 13 make 84K per the schedule, the benefits add another $35k/year. So that’s really $120k/yr to pay a contract the same.

That $170k you mentioned, that’s about $120k before benefits.

(Not to none federal employees: few private companies detail the benefits costs as well as the governments does. I never knew what my private employers were paying for things like health insurance and life insurance. I just knew my share)

I didn’t know because they didn’t tell you. Most private employers don’t. They tell you your share, but not what they pay.

I didn’t say we were just given anything. But my LES shapws the government paid $291 for FEHB (in the section titled Benefits Paid By Government For You) and I paid $97. If you go to the OPM site you can look it up for all the different health plans.

I can count sick time. The contract rate mentioned ($170k) pays the employee’s salary ($120k) plus benefits like insurance, retirement, 401K, and time off. It also pays for the management, buildings, and admin at the company (overhead).

I’ll add though, that the private sector taxpayers actually pay it all.
My salary and benefits are all paid by the taxes of non government employees/businesses. All the deductions and taxes I “pay” are just bookkeeping.

If my salary is $50k and they deduct $10k in taxes, insurance, and retirement, I get $40k.
If my salary is $40k and no deductions (it’s all “free”), I still get $40k.

Exactly, We need more Soldiers! I would gladly surrender my Army civilian job to a Soldier. So, work on getting more.
JACOB A. GARCIA
LTC ®

DON’T REELECT THE SAME IDIOTS IN CONGRESS/SENATE THAT ARE CREATING THIS MESS. If you remember the same thing has happen over and over again, but we still keep the same folks in office. Let quit blaming the President , he is only one person and walked into this mess. Congress and the senate is to blame. Lets get together as a nation and tell those idiots that we have had enough of their crap, and either do what we elected them to do or they will be replaced. PLEASE PASS THIS ALONG TO ALL MEDIA SITES!!

They will probably entail all non-essential personnel. Essential personnel like law enforce/security for example probably won’t be effected. However you never know if the idiots in Congress don’t get their heads out of their rear ends absolutely anything could happen. I say put everyone of them on unpaid furlough until they can come up with a firm plan to balance the budget. As greedy as all of them are I bet they would come up with a workable plan to balance the nations budget real quick. Why should the nations work force be effected by their incompetance let them be the ones effected. That goes for that fool who is masquerading as our president too. Start taking money out of his pocket and his power away from him and see how long he sticks around. Everybody already knows that he is just in there for the money and the power.

Let’s furlough Congress.…they are the ones that can’t seem to do their job…

How much can we save by furloughing Congress?

Jack if you do away with the civilians that support the military you will not have time to train or learn your job. The civilians are the ones that work every day. They are the ones who cut the grass, pick up the trash, clean the halls and bathrooms. They are the ones that make sure you get paid and feed. I work in a place where we are not allowed to get sick because there is noone to do the job if we are. We loose earned leave all the time because there is noone to cover shift if you take leave. So tell me you have been there. You are allowed to train because the civilians do all the stuff that we soldiers use to do. So before you go making statements that you can do with out them, put yourself in there shoes. work 7 days a week 12 hour days 3 weeks out of a month, with no comp time or end in site. We do that so you can train and be ready to defend this nation. Also so you can spend time with your family. While we spend time away from ours.…

how about you figure out that these people are working stiffs like me…an electrician on an air force base where the airmen do not have the abilities to change the light bulbs in thier own baracks rooms because daddy never taught them how. Why should I have to suffer and not get paid for 3 weeks? Where does that leave my children wondering when groceries are going to be put on the table or my wife wondering how we are going to pay the bills?????
DOD employees are more than just sitting around doing nothing..

Just a note for you. They don’t have to vote for thier pay raise anymore. It is set up now, that if they do not vote, They get the raise automatically. this is so they can go back and say they did not vote for the pay raise. Why do they get extra pay and tax deductions to go to washington to do their jobs, when they don’t do their jobs. Why not have housing for them when they are in washington, like soldiers have. when it comes down to it they should be paid at like a GS 12 rate with the same benifits and medical options. No other incentives or raises unless they perform way above the expected level.

Les that is true for GS employes but not for congressmen and senators theirs is a different retirement system. They do fall under (FERS) but they also have their congressional retirement program as well, and a totally different health package

I wonder if it would be better if Congressmen were compensated under the GS system and consolidated into FERS instead of having a totally parallel compensation package.

Nuts.

There are a lot of “unnecessary” positions that are filled with “retired” X-colonels and admirals! There should be a rule that those “retired” x senior level military (now) civilians must go to the bottom of the ladder to stay at the Pentagon. So many of them are just chair warmers there to collect extra benefits and live off the taxpayers. They would not be missed in any capacity!

Most DoD employees are actually republican and are against Obama and for the last 3 years there has been a pay freeze.

Yes, and not only that, retired vets get their retirment checks as well as their civil service pay. Reservists who are civil servants, get to keep both their military retirement at age 60 and their civil service retirement as well.

It’s sad that your family might suffer. It’s sadder that your post made my point. Being paid to change light bulbs and earning a salary large enough to feed a family so military troops don’t have to do it? I hope you are doing more and just made your case poorly. Tasking DoD employees with changing light bulbs and having to have enough to do such mundane tasks is part of the problem.

I think we should curtail welfare checks going to all these people who can work but choose not to — it is easier to sit on your butt all day drinking and smoking cigarettes rather than having to work for a living. Oh yeah — I forgot, and popping out more babies so they can get more money for doing nothing… I think reliefers should get a stipend for the first kid — after that they are on their own. I am sick of supporting everyone else…

Yep, I question why we are employing 800,000 to support a uniformed force of a little over a million. I’m not to crazy about the crowd not paying taxes either.

A jet fighter is a heck of lot more sophisticated than a formula one racer. Most of the folks working on those aircraft should be (and are) uniformed personnel. Not a good comparison.

We need to look at the greatest concentrations like the pentagon and headquarters. Then read farther down about the electrician changing lightbulbs at a USAF base. Instead of excuses, let’s look at the force and how it’s being used…

Coming back a week later I see my prediction came true. A lot of DoD employees didn’t like the truth. We have a problem when we “need” 800k civilians to support an active force of a little over a million…

In a large part I agree that the military has become to dependent on civilian support.
I remember when the military was self sufficient, yet today a large part of the support work is civilian.
Mess halls are 90% or better civilian. Almost no military cooks now.

No punishment details either, like painting rocks/curbs and other grounds keeping or cleaning (like the admin buildings, bathrooms everywhere, etc)

At the same time, the civilians doing those jobs are not GS employees either. They are Wage Grade employees under the Federal Wage System http://​www​.opm​.gov/​o​c​a​/​p​a​y​/​h​t​m​l​/​f​w​s​f​a​c​t​.​htm http://​www​.opm​.gov/​f​e​d​c​l​a​s​s​/​f​w​s​i​n​t​r​o​.​pdf

Ok so DoD is going to furlough all of the civilians, but keep their great contractors who make more money per hour than the DoD Civilian who is doing the same job standing next to them. DoD was mandated a few years back to get rid of contractors by terminating the contract or converting them to DoD civilian. The contractors they cut were down at the base/post level, but you get above that and you wind up speaking to a contractor before you ever get to a civilian or even an active duty person. So if they are going to furlough all the civilians then every contractor needs to go, that will save DoD a hell or a lot of money.

you just don’t get it do you? if a jet fighter (or bomber, nuke sub, abrams tank, satellite) is more sophisticated than a formula one racer, than logically the ratio of support to operator is greater than the formula one example. your statement “most of the folks working on those aircraft should be (and are) uniformed personnel” showcases your ignorance and arrogance. you will find scarce uniformed representation at depot level maintenace, where civilians with 20+ years experience with the systems overhaul them day in and day out year after year. you will find scarce unifromed representation at the support agencies that develop and sustain weapons systems as well, not to mention the prime contractors and their sub-contractors. Our uniformed members deploy, PCS, and have too much professional military education requirements as well as military duties to develop a high level of technical competency in many specialties.

I agree. Very good point DanS.

The presidential administration, Congress and and the Senate don’t get paid until they pass a budget. We need fewer leaders, but more leadership!

What would be the point of having more soldiers doing non-soldierly work? You’ve replaced one government worker with another, and not necessarily because the job requires a uniform to get it done.

I’m surprised they don’t find some way to use low-wage temps like they would in the private sector.

That said, there is much to be said about having soldiers be somewhat self-sufficient. There’s a point where the army needs to let someone do something for them (eg, the army does not raise its own cattle, have an army slaughterhouse and army butchers to prepare meat), and on the other end of the spectrum is an army that can’t change its own lightbulbs? Yeech.

Certainly not grow/raise food, but definitely run the mess, cook and serve.
It was just an example.

I was in Afghanistan last year, and better than half the vehicle maintenance/repair was done by civilians (generally contractors not DoD employees), the more technical/complex the more likely it was done by civilians, especially for the Army.

I remember when we trained and had the skills to do most of the work. In the Corps I did electronics repairs in the field, to the component level (resistors, transistors, chips). Now, at best they swap out cards, but normally larger boxes (with multiple cards) to be sent to the OEM for repair. Don’t have a spare? You’re screwed.

It’s not that they couldn’t be trained, they just aren’t. We purchase systems without the technical data to do the work, relying on the OEM (and their subs). We don’t even own the end design, so if the OEM goes away/drops the product, we can’t get someone else to produce/support it either.

Not just electronics either. We don’t have the drawings to reproduce structural parts (like airframes). We have to go back to the OEM for analysis of repairs. Similarly with engines, they go to civilians for overhaul and a lot of repairs.

It all works great here in the States, even in friendly OCONUS locations in peace time.
But we’ve been lucky with OEF/OIF. Great supply chain and air superiority has allowed it to mostly function.

But against a real enemy that can seriously disrupt our supply lines? Half the equipment would soon be down waiting for parts/spares from safer locations. And we wouldn’t have the civilians in the field like we do right now (where it’s generally safe in theater).

Federal Employee here. I work my ass off 8–10 hours every day because we cannot get staffed to support the mission. There is dead weight in Washington and among Federal Agencies. That fat needs to be trimmed and some muscle needs to be built. “Do more with less” is what we are told. However, where it matters most…we get less. Where it matters least…get more.

Here is an idea, pull the troops out of the Middle East and see how much money we ‘save’ or pay down the National Debt with. Scrap the F35. The only reason that thing is still getting worked on is because so much money has been put into it already. There is not another country on this earth that has the air superiority that we had with something as old as the F14. Yet, we continue to build and stay ahead.…regardless of cost or possiblity of technology passing by the program because it takes so long to build

Rather than furlough everyone for a month, why not just trim back the work force? If done “right”, the DoD and nation would realize savings this year, and in future years. Given the range of stakeholders, defining “right” will be difficult. But the alternative seems far worse.

…Its the End of the World as we know it.….…

Crazy, But yes we do have a lot of GS/GG’s and Contractors which could be cut…or reduced to save some money, however this would only be temporary and it is not an answer to the overall government’s spending issues.

Rather, lets cut spending, and re evaluate critical positions to see who is essential and whoever is not…look into a better suited area for them to work. This will not work for everyone, but it might reduce a mass influx of government workers out of jobs.

Either way I strongly believe the Furlough of government workers is a temp spending cut, but will make no impact on the overall deficit of the US Govt.

Woah, it sounds worse than I thought. I suspect the issue is that the army is having issues finding mechanical or technical talent in its ranks. It might be hard to stand up in-house maintenance if you have difficulty finding the right guys for the job and doing it consistently enough to survive turnover.

No, the talent is there and people can be trained. We were not any more technical when I was in training 23 years ago. We had everything from HAM hobbyists that had built radios to people that couldn’t change batteries or set a VCR clock. All were trainable.

But the powers that be don’t insist on the data needed and have been boonswaggled into believing its not needed/the OEM can do it all for the last 20+ years.

It sounds more like it isn’t a priority for the army. Not everyone knows how to fight when they go into basic, but technical skills aren’t important enough to the army to justify training.

I don’t think vendors mind, since a support contract is preeeecious, juicy sweet, to misquote Gollum.

I can’t believe how many people here disparage the work civil servants do and dismiss them out of hand without any factual basis. After hanging up the uniform, I decided I’d like to still serve in some way. Most of my immediate circle of fellow civilians also served entire careers in uniform and are fellow veterans. We are just as dedicated now as we ever were. I can’t speak for all civil service personnel, but the disdain and stereotyping displayed in this forum shows a disturbing ignorance of reality. There are many reasons 1/3 of the DoD is comprised of civilians, from continuity, to expertise, to cost savings. Oh yeah, every branch is also led by a civilian who reports to other civilians all the way to the President. My civics class memory fades but I seem to remember there was a good reason for that as well. In any case, I’ve decided most of the folks posting disparaging comments are just jealous. You should be. It was an honor to serve my country in uniform and no less of an honor to serve in business casual. Not everyone gets called or gets the opportunity.

Agree to a certain degree. As a retired AC military, currently as a State DOD employee on a NG/AR base, I’ve seen both sides of the fence. I think it’s all in the mentality—true military versus civilian. One could “cluck and crow at all the inconsistencies” but at the end of the day just shake ones head and drive on. This problem exists in every business environment. In general, you have those making the big bucks in a supervisory/executive or “phantom” position(s) just directing traffic; hard working/gung-ho in the trenches, sometime “wearing 2 hats” without relief and no voiced complaints; then lackadaisical has-been/wannabe who serve no possible purpose aside from instigating trouble for others. I’m in a salaried, full-time position that hasn’t seen a raise for over 5 years completing daily mission service/support requirements where it normally requires two. Not complaining—got a job—total mission controlled mentality. How these folks in the “think tank” could possibly weed out the non-essentials (internal ghosts) is beyond me. Placing a furlough on all will certainly put a hurt on the truly dedicated civilian employees servicing/supporting the military counterparts.

Why do we need to cut any of the 800,000 DoD civilians? or put any of them on furlough?? how about not paying the Congressman and Senators that have failed to pass a working budget for the last 3 years on time. How about taking a month of their pay? Hell we should be able to pay down the deficit by doing that. Or even elimiating the continous paycheck for all of these congressman and sentors that only have to work one term to recieve a paycheck for life? Want to cut the deficit? do it where it will make the most impact and the most sense!

That wouldn’t work at any business anywhere. You will not be able to retain any type of significant work force with that senerio, whether it was government or private sector, because the people who work hard at there jobs would go else where and the people just passing time would continue to sit on the ass and draw a paycheck because they know they couldn’t get hired anywhere else.

I’m a DoD employee and I’m a Republican

If they are contractors then they aren’t DoD employees, so that doesn’t fit the situation. Contractors are not being furloughed.

Can a DMAG DoD person be furloughed?

Jeff, an O-5 or O-6 makes way more than a GS-12

Most of those civilian employees are millitary trained veterans who are doing good work. Management is not so hot. It has been said that the workgets done in spite of management’s efforts to spend where not needed and save where spending is warrented. Tools needed new office furniture not.

Again I say there is way to much overhead. Nepotism seems rampent. I worked at a Naval Aviation Overhaul and repair facility. All millitary aircraft have major work done on them by civilians who were trained in the millitary to work on such systems. We did good work with quality in mind. Always in the back of my mind and most of my coworkers was a voice saying “this must be done right or aircraft will crash and people will die” . To much politics involved in management.

I remember way back under Reagan, or was it Carter, there was a push to save money in DOD. At that time it became difficult to get parts for aircraft repair. When I went out in the field to perform changes to F-18, H-46 and other A/C there was no toilet paper in the heads and no paper towels and maybe no hand soap. They cut some things so they could scrape up money to buy parts.

Uh, actually you aren’t getting it. The overwhelming majority of maintainers at user, unit and organizational level maintenance (all before depot) are uniformed servicemembers. Same goes for sustainment. I’m not being arrogant. I recognize the civilian contribution. I just don’t buy that every two servicemembers needs a civilian DoD employee to support him. I’m not the ignorant (or arrogant) one here…

Contractors aren’t part of that 800K though…

Good point. You assume each job is something that needs to be done (think developing an Army specific MRE/Candy bar or such) and you aren’t considering it might be a job a soldier should be doing (e.g. line BNs have a shortage of cooks when they go to the field so setting up mobile kitchen trailers often requires details from the front line units to assist)…

Or maybe part of the bloat that is the federal gov’t…

ST Dog — EXACTLY!

I think the issue is that it’s hard to politically justify a field kitchen when your soldiers in peacetime are almost aways close to base, or in Afghanistan you are close to the contractor-staffed kitchen.

We forget there’s a transition period during A War where neither solution is appropriate. Obviously civilians cannot work in war zones, or cannot be trusted to do so, or can’t be thrown into the line in a pinch. And peacetime facilities back home don’t do much for you overseas.

Reserve/Guard units?

blight — even in peacetime you go to the field for weeks at a time, sometimes months. It’s a requirement to be able to feed your troops and you train as you fight.

Then even when we are engaged in combat somewhere it isn’t an excuse to ignore other threats and the skills necessary to be successful against them. BTW every combat BN is authorized a meal kitchen trailer (MKT).

Reserve and guard units also have these and they play a role in disaster relief.

It’s not like they make you eat MREs for months on exercise as a lazy workaround, is it?

In any case, if you have a battalion that isn’t always at full strength, it must be tempting to take guys away from food…

With the increase in DOD employees, it saves what using active duty in the same support position BILLIONS of dollars each year,

Well heck, let’s make all service members DoD employees. Think of the SAVINGS!!!

FYI, it’s exceptionally rare where you have units that eat MREs for MONTHS. So rare I can’t cite any examples I’ve ever heard of.

The rule of thumb I was taught was you didn’t want to feed straight MRE for more than two weeks becuase they have too high a calorie count not to mention they tend to “lock you up” if you know what I mean.. There’s also the impact on morale. When you are in the field hot chow is actually one of the few bright spots in the day next to mail.

As a unit commander hot chow is so important to morale the only time I would consider not sending troops to prep it is if I was actively engaged in a 24/7 firefight.

This congress and this president has enslaved the american taxpayer and the country has become overwhelmed
with federal debt. We need to shut the federal goverment down for a period of time and start cutting federal programs.

AMEN

My husband is a police officer for DOD. I am not sure how the base would function with simply military police only. They are only there for 2–3 years at a time, most of the low ranking do not know how to write a parking ticket, let alone respond to a domestic abuse. The higher ranking all feel that they are entitled to sit behind a desk or be a supervisor. You need DOD police at every base to keep the training current, oversee the new influx of soldiers and make sure the base continues to be protected and guarded to the best of the departments ability. It is funny that when they have inclement weather they let all non essential personnel go home or not come in, however, since law enformcement is considered essential personnel they are expected to come in and work in snow storms, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. But with the furlough looming now all of a sudden they are saying it is going to include law enforcement.…unreal!

Triple Threat I dont know whom you are but your comments and/or facts are that of someone that has first hand experiences in this area. I am sure your stats are perfectly correct. As a former US Army SSG during the Clinton cuts I know that when the Army was reduced in Size and the Mission was held to be the same, my troopers and myself had to become very creative when repairing the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Now that I am an Air Force Civilian working on small parts that go to bigger parts that make are Air Force Fly in the sky. I ask everyone to think about this.

Cuting the “CHAIRFORCE” (Joke intended) Civilians that have NO ACTIVE/RESERVE components in my field to replace us that maintain the parts flow to the end user being the Airmen on the ground make sense to anyone? I mean I am not boosting for my job or that of the next person. Just stating that if we take the 22 day furlough and shut down even in a rotational basis it will set in my opinion the part request lag to end user back A LOT and make this an extreme weak link to the over all war mission for ALL services. How many KC35 Cargos fly in your supplies to the war fighters? How many times is a War Bird called in to support the ground missions? How many Missions on the ground will suffer and cause undo stress of risk to the Ground war fighter. Just stating.

Great comments. Thank you for your service & valuable, informed perspective.

i made no statements about “user, unit, and organizational level maintenance”. they are all the same thing, you don’t need to separate them with commas and ands to make it seem your knowledge is more sophisticated than what it is. also, the dependency on deployed civilians (LARs) and contractors (FSRs) is growing with no relief in site on this trend due to the increasing complexity of DoD systems and the larger integrated environment. http://​www​.almc​.army​.mil/​a​l​o​g​/​i​s​s​u​e​s​/​J​a​n​F​e​b​1​0​/​log… Your arrogance is evidenced by your overbearing insistence that the mil:civ ratio is out of whatck, when you have not presented one piece of evidence or analysis to the contrary. Not suprisingly, you have no response to the argument that military systems are more complex than race cars, logically requiring greater support to operator personnel. your comment that the ratio of high ranking officers to is your best one, actually supported by analysis and media coverage. cutting those officers might help free up some resources to address notable civilian personnel shortages in such areas as medicine and technology.

You think I don’t know what I’m talking about but you think “user, unit, and organizational level maintenance” are the same thing?

Thanks for making my point.

Jen I totally agree.! In addition, here in PA, they advertise free cell phones for people on Welfare.!What do they need cell phones for???? You have working people who cant afford a cell phone, yet if you receive any type of welfare benefit, check, foods stamps or medicaid, you can get a free cell phone with 240 minutes a month, outrageous! If you want a check, work for it! Also, stop increasing checks everytime a child is born and they say they dont know where the father is, but he’s the father to some if not all of the previous children. Not saying the children should suffer, but if you can’t afford to take care of them, there are plenty of loving families, ready and willing to adopt!

Stop hiring re-employed anuitants who get full salary and full retirement. Once you retire from Federal Government, that’s it. If you decide you want to come back to Federal employment, you should have to either give up your salary or give up your annuity. Talk about double dipping?

Maternity leave is the devil’s work.

I have been a government contractor for over 30 years and became Civil Service about 3 years ago. I took about a $20K pay cut to do this, but, personally, I was tired of working counter to what was best for the DoD as a contractor. Most of the benefits are the same. Also, when I was a contractor, I usually received at least a cost of living increase in pay — in Civil Service, our pay has been frozen for the last 3 years.

I agree that there are those that are not pulling there weight, but my experience is that most of the Civil Service people that I work with work really hard and are under a lot of stress (remember, they are the decision makers and, in some cases, they can be prosecuted by law for those decisions). Most really do want to do the right thing, but are often thwared by the powers that be (including Congress) and onerous processes/rules.

i’ll concede that detail to you. your lack of responsiveness to everything else and lack of presentation of a single piece of analysis or research to support your ignorant opinions speaks louder than anything you couyld actually say in your defense.

My analysis and research is as good if not better than yours. Youve presented metaphors and race car examples and think that’s definitive evidence of why we need a DoD lan for every two service members. Ridiculous especially considering we have 8–10 uniformed servicemembers for every trigger puller.

Hmm. I’m curious how the logistics of feeding troops in those Afghan outposts works. If its really far out, isn’t it just MREs or do they make an effort and pay the price (and the risk) to fly out hot food?

Or the obvious, you detail some guys to run a kitchen.

Little bit of everything. It depends on the size of the outpost and how far away it is from the larger supply sources. We had a FOB of 300 that used a field kitchen with Army cooks, and a platoon-sized outpost that was close enough to have one hot meal a day that was driven out to them. The outpost had a roughly 6x6x6ft freezer to store some of their food and ate 1 or 2 MREs a day.

Watch Restrepo. They had a cook at the company COP. Hot rations are prepared and served buffet style. A tray has enough for food for around 14 men.

Watery eggs and rubber ham a la mermite. Yum.

please stop embarassing yourself already. you have NO analysis and research, you have your opinion. people who have actually studied the problem have identified critical shortages of key civilian personnel in multiple areas: http://​www​.gao​.gov/​h​i​g​h​r​i​s​k​/​r​i​s​k​s​/​e​f​f​i​c​i​e​n​c​y​-​e​ffehttp://​www​.nationaldefensemagazine​.org/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​/20… “GAO attributes the Defense Department’s reliance on contractor support to a “critical shortage of certain acquisition professionals with technical skills.” you think there’s too many GS civilians to support high tech systems?? the evidence is there are so scarce qualified GS civilians there is an embarassing dependence on contractors. deployed contracting support shortages: http://​www​.army​.mil/​d​o​c​s​/​G​a​n​s​l​e​r​_​C​o​m​m​i​s​s​i​o​n​_​R​e​por

I didn’t present race car example someone else did. I contend defense systems are more complex than race cars and you didn’t argue it, so logically, would require even more support to trigger puller ratio. ground control to maj rod: it actually takes civilians to manage, finance, engineer, test, and logistically support radar, avionics, offensive & defensive systems, controls, displays, etc. that make the war machine, and portfolios of war machines, go. maybe I should expect that someone who slings around terms like “DoD lan” thinks that a race car is more complicated than a weapon system. stop, PLEASE.

All of you are so funny. You get yourselves wound up about stuff you can do nothing about. You cannot fix this yourself, you can sit and dog contractors, you can sit and dog DoD Civ, you can dog the military, you can dog Obama, the only thing that is going to fix this is a lot of PRAYER. Give this to God people and His WILL will BE DONE.

Amen. But perhaps God’s will is executed through discussion, media, politics, voting, leadership changes, decision making changes, etc.

With over 300 posts it’s easy to mix people up. My Bad. Reference your studies (1st link doesn’t work). Acquisition is a relatively small part of the DoD workforce. Do you really think it drives an 800k person force?
That said, let’s look at acquisition…

“The shortage of trained acquisition personnel impedes the capacity and capability of agencies such as the Departments of Defense (DOD) and Homeland Security (DHS) to oversee and manage contracts that have become more expensive and increasingly complex.” http://​www​.gao​.gov/​h​i​g​h​r​i​s​k​/​r​i​s​k​s​/​e​f​f​i​c​i​e​n​c​y​-​e​ffe
Yes our acquisition sucks because we don’t have TRAINED personnel. Why don’t we fire them and hire trained personnel or better yet, get the civilian force trained? Is there waste in this area? Why did we hire untrained personnel in the first place?

“But before the Defense Department rushes to hire more people, it needs to better define what it means to be an acquisition worker and to identify precisely what skills are lacking, says a recent RAND Corp. study.”
“The RAND study shows that, contrary to the conventional wisdom, the acquisition work force has grown steadily since the early 1990s.”
“The lack of a consistent definition of the acquisition work force skews the data and may lead the Pentagon to hire people who are not really needed, or to neglect to hire in areas that are more critically understaffed, the study suggests.” http://​www​.dodbuzz​.com/​2​0​1​3​/​0​1​/​0​2​/​e​n​t​i​r​e​-​d​o​d​-​w​ork
I wish I could BOLD the last quote.

‘The expeditionary environment requires more trained and experienced military officers and non-commissioned officers (NCOs). Yet, only 3 percent of Army contracting personnel are active duty military and there are no longer any Army contracting career General Officer (GO) positions.“
“The Army’s acquisition workforce is not adequately staffed, trained, structured, or empowered to meet the Army needs of the 21st Century deployed warfighters. Only 56 percent of the military officers and 53 percent of the civilians in the contracting career field are certified for their current positions.” http://​www​.army​.mil/​d​o​c​s​/​G​a​n​s​l​e​r​_​C​o​m​m​i​s​s​i​o​n​_​R​e​por
Hmmmmm, more military and trained personnel?

Thanks for the links and making my point which has always been that there’s waste not that all employees need to be fired. I’m not embarrassing myself. Nor am I going nuts protecting my niche.

changing your position? interesting. above you were arguing the tail to troop ratio is out of whack, now you say “there’s waste”, which one doesn’t even need a college degree in order to draw that conclusion . based on all you wrote, do you honestly believe that anyone here would believe that your original position was that “all employees need to be fired?” you single out the root cause of “acquisition sucks” is due to lack of trained personnel? you need a broader perspective of the problem. it doesn’t matter how many level 3 acq certified people we have, or how much contractor support they receive, when you are developing technology for fickle, intransigent, even delusional customers. you might be surprised how much DoD’s acquisition strategy drives the total civ requirement. think beyond the developmental programs, think along the lines of logistics, ranges, installations, financial mgmt, HR, budgeteers, and then the additional people required to support them.

“changing your position? interesting. above you were arguing the tail to troop ratio is out of whack, now you say “there’s waste”,

No change. Troop to tail IS out of whack. You’re the one that is looking at only the acquisition piece of the pie. There are a lot more DoD employees than just acquisition. That said acquisition could use some tightening up as the links you provided suggest.

Thanks!

I work for one of the largest DOD installations in the US I see a lot of waste with employees sitting on their asses talking on cell phones smoking cigaretts . But still if you fix that you still got a bigger problem .When you go to cutting jobs you put the whole military and our country at risk.WHAT our government should do is start paying for their own exspenses. Does anyone realize how much money they waste of ours probably billions every year it doesn’t come out of their pockets. If they did that it would cut the deficit termendously in one year think about that

force people under old retirement system out.…now. Then offer early retirements and no penalty and do not hire replacements!!

If you think that you don’t need civilians to get the job done just think about how much more you would have to do if they were not there.

hahhahahhahaha, good one … hire the heaters so they’ll stop crying … hahhaha

i work for dod and let me tell you that there are as many contractor dumb asses as there are civilian dumb asses.

Yep, LAZEEE ! I am a DAC Flight Instructor at Fort Rucker, Alabama. I work a salary job of 8 hours daily. Yesterday, I worked 10 hours, got paid for 8, and had a great training day with my assigned students. I entertain the prospect of anyone performing a L.E.A.N. Team assessment on how to get these kids trained with 1/2 the work force. 27 years ago, when I attended Army Flight School, we graduated with 180 hours of flight instruction/experience. Today, it is less than 120. Bring it ! I can use a few days off. DAC Chuck Mineo ( CW4 retired )

Why is it that only DOD civilians and military have to pay the price for the deficit?, Shouldn’t all tax paying americans help pay for the security the government provides, maybe give a days wages? Further, I don’t think that Congress realizes the impacts to the economy, many of us won’t buy anything but the most critical needs and resort to walking to work, not eating at restaurants, or significantly curtailing any retail buying. I’m Not going to spend my savings to get through this either, just not buying anything. Also the world should understand that security or assistance given to countries like Iraq and Afganistan doesn’t come cheap… Some of the spoils of war should be used to offset costs, e.g. oil. Finally edictins should be implemented in Congress to balance the budget on time otherwise we’ll be doing this all over again, sound familiar? We supposedly have a whole bunch of smart people in congress, but they don’t appear to be smarter than a 5th grader.

Bravo Triple Threat. The civilian workforce required to support to a weapon system includes, engineers, tech writers, item managers, provisioners, budgeting, maintenance/depot workers and the systems analysts to run the major supply systems. All of these people are not high in the management chain but are an integral part of support the solider.

GS 9 starts at 42,0000.

is that base or locality pay. DC area the locality pay is high go to opm​.gov the pay schedules are there. Dont forget to look at military pay and there housing allowance.

Good job congress/senate…800K workers facing furloughs, probably over a million contractors facing deeper cuts. .Businesses that supply goods and services to DoD are holding the flood of their pink slips until the hear the final bell. Can you folks screw this up any more? Guess what all these people are not doing with their new found free time? Paying taxes and buying stuff.

We have gone through so many military to civilian position conversions to reduce the troop strength that it’s no exaggeration. The civilians run the military. Any job that does not require carrying a weapon has been converted to civilian jobs. Thus we have a large number of civilian work force. From logistics to acquisitions to resource management, you do not see any green suiters doing it. Besides, greensuiters spend so many hours a day training that they just do not have the time to perform non-combat functions. Civilians perform more and more functions in themilitary now than ever before. In fact we have so many civilian down range working along side the military… so before criticizing the size of the DOD civilian work force, know the facts.

Missy, a lot fo thise jobs you describe are contractors. Not DoD employees. (Granted the DoD civilian rolls have grown)

Many soldiers do conduct noncombat functions. For every soldier on the line there are 8 — 10 supporting him.

I have reading different blogs and comments about the fedreal budget and mess we are in. I started to wonder how many people that write in these blogs and comments has writen to the congressman and senators and voice the same ideas. I can bet only about less than 1%. If you want action and get these poeple to do the what we hired them to do. One contact repsents about 150 votes if not more.

I have an active duty soldier at my agency PCS-ing right now and he is on a 2 year schedule, along with several others. Although, I am not a veteran I was hired after 4 years of putting in applications, but it was based on my education, I’m sure. I have worked very hard to complete several degrees, and also Level 3 DAWIA certification requirements and I do exactly what I am supposed to do at work. I support the warfighter and I am very much aware of what I am buying for them because I do my research. I can also speak for many of my colleagues.
As I read these posts, it is ver disheartening to me because some of the comments are downright ignorant and everyone has a so-called solution. These people should have run for President or a member of Congress if they have all the answers.
I am in Contracting, an noone has to explain to me what I need to buy. They tell me and I buy at thebest possible value to the Government. I make it a point to know what I am buying (every inch of it).

Wow!!! Really!!!

Really? IM a nurse on Bragg, we I see about 25+ soldiers and dependants a day. Do you really think you can do away with my job and still have good health care with out a 30 day wait to see a Dr. or PA?

Really? IM a nurse on post. I work my ass off taking care of soldiers and dependants. I can tell you that I have not had a pay increase in 3 years. My primary concern every day is to make sure our troops are taken care of and get everything they need to stay healthy and be able to do their jobs. If we were not here, the wait time and care given would suffer. Do not lump all DOD employees into one pile. Just because you had a lazy secretary, or lazy person on the phone does not mean we are all lazy. I have seen slacker soldier, but I don’t call all soldiers lazy. I love my job and give 110% evert day. I am a single mother and this loss of income will be a major blow to my family. I have no problem giving up 20% of my income to make sure the troops have what they need. I do however have a problem with my congress and senate not doing the same thing.
So please do not make blanket statements about DOD employees. Better yet, come do my job for a day and then tell me I’m lazy!

Same as Robert, except National Guard. As a Dual Status Technician I wear my uniform proudly. I have been active duty, Active Guard Reserve, and now a technician. Unlike active duty Soldiers, we bring a combination of experiences to the table, not just one job learned from start to finish. Most of us have many years of experience as a Soldier and a civilian and have mobilized more than once to serve. I proudly wear my uniform regardless if I am in a technician status or MDay status. Please don’t compare me to the do nothings/overpaid that you so often hear about on the news and those who’s pay is protected. I wouldn’t change my job for the world and am proud to serve.

i agree with you if DoD and gov’t contract won’t be getting paid niether should Congress and Senator. They ARE NOT doing the job they are suppose too. They make the laws but not of them applies to them. I saw but them on Fulough

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