Israeli Buy a Boost For Osprey Production Line

Israeli Buy a Boost For Osprey Production Line

The surprise announcement that Israel was acquiring the tilt-rotor MV-22 Osprey for its special forces has led other countries to take a second look at buying the aircraft that has greater range and speed than conventional helicopters.

“I can tell you that several countries are very, very interested” in the Osprey, said William Schroeder, a spokesman for Bell Boeing of Fort Worth, Tex.

Schroeder declined to name the interested countries, but the United Arab Emirates has been haggling with Bell Boeing for more than a year on unit prices, and Britain and Canada have also inquired about the Ospreys.

The sale of Ospreys to Israel — if coupled with buys from other states — could insure keeping the production line open past the current phase out date in 2018.

U.S. and Israel officials have yet to say how many of the $70 million Ospreys that Israel will buy, or the price that the Israelis will pay.
Defense Department officials last Friday made the surprise announcement that the Israelis would be getting the Osprey ahead of a trip to the region by Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel.

Hagel, who was in Israel Monday in part to seal the deal on the Ospreys as part of a major arms, will be in the Emirates later this week on his Mideast swing to wrap up details on a total $10 billion in arms sales to Israel, the UAE and Saudi Arabia.

At a joint news conference in Tel Aviv with Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon, Hagel said the weapons for Israel included “anti-radiation missiles and advanced radars for its fleet of fighter jets, KC-135 refueling aircraft, and most significantly, the V-22 Osprey, which the U.S. has not released to any other nation.”

“The introduction of the V-22 into the Israeli Air Force will give the Israeli Air Force long-range, high-speed, maritime search-and-rescue capabilities to deal with a number of threats and contingencies,” Hagel said, but the Israelis have already made clear that they have much more in mind for the Ospreys than sea rescues when the aircraft becomes operational with its special forces.

Ya’alon said that the arms deal showed the commitment of President Obama to guaranteeing that Israel maintained a qualitative military edge in the region against any potential adversary.

“We see your commitment in the Joint Strike Fighter program and the presidential approval of other advanced capabilities, such as the V-22 for Israel,” Ya’alon said.

Ya’alon said the arms deal with the U.S. should also send a strong signal to Iran.

“Without a credible military option,there’s no chance the Iranian regime will realize it has to stop the military nuclear project,” Ya’alon said.

The Osprey deal culminated a long courtship of Israel by the Marine Corps and Bell Boeing. Going back to early 2011, Israeli Air Force pilots were brought to the Marine air base in New River, N.C., to train on simulators and take test flights at the controls of the aircraft, said Marine Capt. Richard Ulsh, a Marine spokesman. “No other [foreign] militaries have done that” or been afforded the opportunity, Ulsh said.

Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, the Israeli chief of staff, has also taken test flights on the Osprey but not at the controls.

The Osprey would fit into Gantz’ announced design to create a joint special operations force for Israel, similar to the U.S. Joint Special Operations Command. The MV-22s, with their in-flight refueling capacities, would be used for long-range commando raids against emerging threats in the region.

It was unclear whether Gantz was interested in the MV-22 standard Osprey used by the Marines, or the CV-22 used by Air Force special forces, which is fitted with extra wing fuel tanks and an AN/APQ-186 terrain-following radar.

More than 30 Marines and test pilots were killed in accidents during the developmental stages of the Osprey, but its performance in Iraq and Afghanistan has sparked the interest of other militaries in the advantages of an aircraft that takes off and lands like a helicopter and can reach speeds of 300 mph in horizontal flight.

The interest spiked last year as the Osprey performed at the Farnborough Air Show outside London, and at similar airshows in Singapore and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

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“U.S. and Israel officials have yet to say how many of the $70 million Ospreys that Israel will buy”

Israel doesn’t buy U.S. military aircraft, per se.

The U.S. government gives Israel money, and then Israel gives the money to a U.S. defense contractor.

That’s how it is going to work for the F-35s which Israel will “buy”, for example.

We can argue about whether or not this is a good arrangement for the U.S. to thus underwrite, but the reality is that the arrangement is thus underwritten. The further reality is that the Israelis are essentially insensitive to airframe cost as a result of this arrangement. Other countries, which actually propose to pay out of their own pockets, will be much less enthusiastic about the flyaway cost of the very expensive V-22.

It did say for commando ops so l wouldnt expect them to go for many. They still have to maintain them an they are pricey to fly per hour.

I still think the V-22 is a drunken fantasy come true…For the same amount of money WASTED on the V-22 “Turkey-bird”, we coulda’ had a whole fleet of next-gen CH-46’s, and AV-8C, D, E, etc. Harriers…Having a whole bunch of 2 aircraft, that each do their own thing WAY BETTER than the Osprey does it, even IF neither does BOTH well, just makes more sense to me…Why not have all 3? Gambling all our chips on the V-22 seems very short-sighted to me. I hope I’m wrong…God, I hope I’m wrong…

Whadaayouknow turns out you can give them away after all.

The Marines LOVE the V-22. Freaking love the thing. So it must be doing something right. Just how exactly do you propose to make a 46 match the V-22 in getting in and getting out with the same speed?

I was deployed to Iraq when the Ospreys made their debut in theater. They really do have an incredible range and travel times are considerably less. Still, I don’t foresee them needing that great of a range that they’d need midair refueling, considering the fact that they could fly across the whole of Iraq without it.

Indeed — this “purchase” announcement should come with the announcement of the reality it represents:

“US Taxpayers to Foot the Bill for V-22 Osprey’s the Federal Government is Giving Away to Israel”

would be more accurate.

The word “buy” is Orwellian double-speak. Israel “buys” nothing, especially from the US. Whether it’s military hardware, or ‘buying off” Congress, the monies are provided gratis to Israel by the magnamious people of the US. Nevermind that we are on the brink of fiscal collapse and that many of our people are becoming paupers thanks to mismangement and theft by DC politocos. Congress hands billions to Israel, knowing that much of that money will end up in their own back pockets. The Ospreys will be used against Iran to draw in the US. Sold out Hagel knows this to be true and has signed off in the furture death of Americans, all for the sake of Israel.. It’s mighty kind of Israel to ‘buy’ US war machines to kill Iranians. Is it no wonder that the Arabs, Muslims and Persians hate us so? Let’s get those Ospreys to Israel ASAP. Armageddon is beckoning!

If you need lift, you get a CH-53. Not sure what the –46 has on the Osprey, but the –46 does carry more people.

The AV-8’s fate is tied with JSF-B, not the Osprey.

Osprey is unlikely to make a dent in the other aircraft in Marine inventory.

Is KC-135 a typo? I thought the airframes were ancient as heck. Not KC-46 or KC-10?

So Israel buys our equipment yet we give the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt stuff?

Israel is not buying anything. The hard working American tax payer is buying the contraptions for them.

it will definitely be helpful to the Israeli’s if they decide to militarily go after Iran’s nuclear program.

Not a good airplane, not a great helicopter. But does the job of both :)

It’s fast and can theoretically VL anywhere.

Waiting for the stealth version to…never make the headlines.

We give the Egyptian government stuff. We don’t even know if the Brotherhood is going to hold power for long. They may turn into a religious dictatorship, or a military junta deposes them, has Mubarak killed, pins it on the MB and creates a “caretaker government”.

Id say its poor safety record makes that point doubtful!

More business for Americans is good more new weapons to Israel is good to counter Obama’s arms deals with the Islamist Egypt.

Marginally though.

I didn’t see figures for this fiscal year, but according to a 2011 article in Forbes, the President’s fiscal year 2011 budget request included $3.9 billion for Afghanistan, $3.1 billion for Pakistan, $3.0 billion for Israel, $1.5 billion for Egypt, etc.

Here is the proposed stealth version…at least it looks like it’s trying to be stealthiER…

Reminds me of the AW609.

Not sure if there’s enough money in tiltrotorland. People are waiting for the military to pay the R&D in blood and money before jumping all over it like it was their idea.

From the proposed 2014 document, under department of state:

“Includes $6.8 billion for the frontline states of Iraq ($2.1 billion), Afghanistan ($3.4 billion), and Pakistan ($1.4 billion)”

For Israel, under the DoD appendices:

“SEC. 8037. Of the amounts appropriated in this Act under the heading
“Procurement, Defense-wide” and “Research, Development, Test and
Evaluation, Defense-Wide”, $316,091,000 shall be for the Israeli Cooperative Programs: Provided, That of this amount, $220,309,000 shall be for
the Secretary of Defense to provide to the Government of Israel for the
procurement of the Iron Dome defense system to counter short-range
rocket threats: Provided further, That $95,782,000 provided under the
heading “Research, Development, Test and Evaluation, Defense-Wide“
shall be available as follows: $32,512,000 shall be for the Short Range
Ballistic Missile Defense (SRBMD) program, including cruise missile
defense research and development under the SRBMD program, of which
$15,000,000 shall be for production activities of SRBMD missiles in the
United States and in Israel to meet Israel’s defense requirements consistent
with each nation’s laws, regulations, and procedures, $52,607,000 shall
be available for an upper-tier component to the Israeli Missile Defense
Architecture, and $10,663,000 shall be for the Arrow System Improvement
Program including development of a long range, ground and airborne,
detection suite: Provided further, That funds made available under this
provision for production of missiles and missile components may be
transferred to appropriations available for the procurement of weapons
and equipment, to be merged with and to be available for the same time
period and the same purposes as the appropriation to which transferred:
Provided further, That the transfer authority provided under this provision
is in addition to any other transfer authority contained in this Act.”

This is not part of the military aid money.…I am looking for those numbers. Department of State, maybe?

Funny tidbit about Israel:

For necessary expenses not otherwise provided for, to enable the Secretary
of State to carry out the provisions of section 2(a) and (b) of the Migration
and Refugee Assistance Act of 1962, and other activities to meet refugee
and migration needs; salaries and expenses of personnel and dependents
as authorized by the Foreign Service Act of 1980; allowances as authorized
by sections 5921 through 5925 of title 5, United States Code; purchase
and hire of passenger motor vehicles; and services as authorized by section
3109 of title 5, United States Code, $1,760,960,000, to remain available
until expended, of which $15,000,000 shall be made available for refugees
resettling in Israel.”

Israel still needs 15m/year for resettling refugees?

It killed a fair number of people in the ‘90s, but I’ve not heard of new crashes since. Either they’re babying the Osprey or it’s improved greatly. As more people serve aboard Ospreys, we’ll find out for sure.

Explain its poor safety record, if you please.

(Hint: its the statistically safest rotorcraft in the entire marine inventory, by the numbers)

A fair number is what, 5? In 2 crashes?

Add to that the crash in Marana and one in afghanistan or morocco and you have just listed every single fatal incident of the V22, with only the latter 2 during its 175,000+ hour operational life.

As a contrast, the CH53 has killed over 350 servicement in accidents alone in its history.

Where does the bad safety rap for the V22 come from, while the Stallion seems to get a pass?

From the FMS numbers:
http://​www​.dsca​.osd​.mil/​p​r​o​g​r​a​m​s​/​b​i​z​-​o​p​s​/​f​a​c​t​s​boo… Year Series — 30 September 2011.pdf


Total: sales 1.49B, delivered 794M
FMS: Agreements: 1.42B, delivered 744M
FMCS: Agreements: 60.8M, delivered 50M
Foreign Mil Fin Waived: 2.99B

Total: Agreements, 2B Delivered 864M
FMS: Agree: 1.94B Delivered 612M
FMCS: Agree:95,546 Delivered 251M
no foreign military financial waived

Total: Agreements, 53M Delivered 550M
FMS: Agree: 53M Delivered 550M
2.8B foreign mil financial waive

Debating the meaning of the waiver, and it’s not 100% clear to me. It could allude to regulatory oversight required to approve sales in the first place, or some kind of waiver for credit, or grant money.

How many billions for Air Force One trips?

For each year of 1976–2002, Israel was the largest recipient of U.S. military aid. Egypt was second-largest 1981–2002. Since 2002, Israel and Egypt have remained among the top four annual recipients of U.S. military aid. BLAME THIS ON OBAMA AS WELL?????

We are obligated to give Egypt military aid in return for them not making war on Israel in keeping with the peace agreement thats been in place since the Carter Administration. This agreement doesn’t change just because the administration (on our side, or theirs) does.

No the 46 does not carry more people

Poor safety record? Since entering combat in 2007, it is the safest A/C in the inventory. Yes it had issues from the early test flights but those have been addressed.

Charles is right on that!

Ah, both carry 24 troops, and the Osprey has more cargo.

Anything that says “of the amounts appropriated” means its an earmark, which eats into whatever the Pentagon originally proposed to fund. It’s a sneaky way for Congress to avoid “adding” money to the budget and staying within the budget totals.

Question is, did POTUS comply with his own 20 travel reduction cut? Do as I say; not as I do.

Killed 7 in ’92, 19 in ’00 in one crash, then 4 more. Then all quiet until 2010, 4 killed. In 2012, one crash, killing two.

For the CH-53, starting from the ‘90s (since the Osprey is new, using aircraft from before its time might be dicey).

1990, 1994: one Marine each.
1997: two Israeli CH-53 collide in Israel. 73 die.
2002: Seven Germans die from their CH-53.
2010: Israeli CH-53 crashes in Romania, 6 Israelis, one Romanian
2011: Crash, one Marine, KIA
2012: Crash, 6 Marines, KIA

Most people in a crash: award goes to crashing two sea stallions into each other.
In terms of American losses: 8 from 1990–2012.

The other item of interest is going to all crashes, rather than focusing on body counts.

Not sure why you guys keep bringing up how the CH-46 and CH-53 has way more capacity than the V-22 when the V-22 was designed more for speed than capacity…

It’s like constantly comparing a Dodge Viper to a Dodge Caravan.

The CH-46 is limited to 6–8 due to the extra armor and electronics that have been added to it.

It’s not, both the US and Israel will keep using the ancient –135s for quite awhile despite the age. They still work, and still have service life left on the airframes.

The V-22 is a very unique aircraft with a good service record now that the kinks have been worked out. The problem is, is it worth the cost? I can’t help but comparing the V-22 to buying a fleet of CH-47s instead. The venerable Chinook meets or exceeds performance over the V-22 in every way except for range and speed, but costs less than half per unit.


Israel does actually pay for weapons, $3 billion doesn’t go very far when you have to buy for an entire army.

This deal is not part of the FMS, it is a pure purchase.

No, this is a purchase, not part of the FMS.

Now bugger off.

Versus the $15–42 BILLION dollars a year the U.S. has to spend on keeping the troops in Korea to defend them.

At least Israel defends itself and doesn’t require U.S. blood to do so.

Versus the $15–42 BILLION dollars a year the U.S. has to spend on keeping the troops in Korea to defend them.

At least Israel defends itself and doesn’t require U.S. blood and equipment to do so.

I feel the newer model will be a safer one. So get rid of these DODO birds now and spend the money on the new models.
the main difference is the way the props rotate from vertical to horizontal. The motor stays in place on the new one and gives it much more stability.
Also there are other feathers that help with the design, like getting the soldiers in and out faster during dust off or extractions. The door gunners will have more room to use a mini if needed. So let the Israelis have these things…fast.

I’m sorry but comparing the Chinook to an Osprey is like a chicken to a hawk. i have seen both in action and taking off and landing. i cannot see how the Chinook is close, I know that’s what the main reason for the Osprey is to replace the Chinook but come on.
Please look into the newer model being tested now and you might change your mind, if not that’s your right.

I have seen both units go down, the Chinook because of a faulty lubrication system for the front drive shaft but I’m still not sure about the Osprey, That’s why the motor and tilting operation change. I hope the new model will be as well taken as the Chinook was in it’s day. Oh and talk about fuel?

The osprey is not replacing the Chinook in any service. The main purpose for the Osprey is to replace the similar, but much smaller sea knight. Which is often confused for it’s big bro the Chinook. I’ve seen the upgraded Ospreys as well as the new –F/G series Chinooks. In terms of fuel, I’d say they are about even, the Osprey has about 50% better range but flies about 50% faster, it doesn’t look like it is much more efficient or carries much more fuel.

Also, the “New model” with stationary engines, the V-280 Valor, is almost 100% new and just on the drawing board.

I suppose heavy participation in Vietnam would skew the helicopter’s kill counts.

750 Chinooks in US+ARVN usage, 200 losses. No contest.
Plus a spectacular crash in the ‘80s involving walnut grit.

In 91, a crash in low visibility conditions, kills a pilot.
2001, ROK loses a Chinook, 3 die.
2002, American Chinook crashes, 10 die.
2004, Greek Chinook crashes, 17 die.

Israel has some tanker 707s already. Since the –135 isn’t made, it means –135’s will be taken from USAF inventory and given to the IAF.

Maybe sequestration related? If you can’t maintain ‘em, sell ‘em?

Those deaths are now ANCIENT HISTORY !!!!

The –46 is slow, it is ancient technology (thus, high man-hours to maintain — - and parts that are now out of production), and extremely limited performance in both high temps & high elevations !!!!

But, they were not designed to simply overfly Iraq — - They weer designed for world-wide mobility !!!!

So what happens when Morsi follows through on his promise to disregard the Carter era peace agreement ??

He stops getting aid, we tell the IMF to F**k Egypt and his country falls apart around his ears, which is pretty much why he hasn’t followed through on his promise.

We have like 700 or 800 of them and we are gearing up for the new buys, so we probably have plenty to spare.

For the life of me, even if it’s politics or business, I simply cannot understand the apparent desire for this aircraft. It is NOT a viable transport and NOT a practical weapons platform.

Shhhh they are expressing their hatred. They need this…

We have treaty with them to do so. It also keeps a war from going hot knowing that the US is there to lay down a sledge hammer.

Right Brad.….V-22 technology is dinosauric.….…lose the tilt rotors and get with the ’tilt thrusters’ already.…they had flyable craft in 1950’s.…German and U. S. successful, (finally) prototypes.…politicians f*u*c*k*e*d* it up and canned the production programs for those craft

Hey You.….because it’s actually f*u*c*k*i*n*g* junk and an ulcer producer for the crews.…way better technology usable besides archaic rotor systems.…as in ’tilt thrusters’.…get with it!!

Some comments here about the safety record of the V-22, well I remember back in the early 70’s when the Harrier was introduced. Many pilots lost their lives just learning to fly that thing, but the Marine Corps saw the ultimate potential of the aircraft and stuck with it. Over time they were proven right. This is the same deal with all new types of designs, and I believe that the V-22 will ultimately prove its worth. When I was in the Marines (82–88) I flew in a CH-46 and I can tell you that all of us in there couldn’t wait to get out of that thing. Slow, loud, easy target egg-beater, we would have loved to have something like the V-22.

Sometimes range and speed is what you need.

All models of the CH-53 (A/D/E) have been “widowmakers.” Most CH-53 accidents have been caused by pilot error, with a small handful happening due to mechanical failure.

There were so many CH-53 crashes in the 1980s that some surviving family members of those killed in crashes actually tried to sue Sikorsky. Lots of CH-53 crashes in the 1970s, too.

Once the technical support for the Egyptian military stops, there’s a deadline to regain support before the army falls apart around your ears. Israel helped Iran against Iraq in the ‘80s, but they are unlikely to help Egypt without some major concessions to guarantee their safety. It’s mostly in Israel’s interest to see the Egyptian military be degraded without American support contracts.

Forget the politics of our military aid to Israel. Dont you notice that every weapon system that Israel acquired from us, and used it successfully time and time again against its enemy, is a demonstration that our weapon system superiority in real time combat. Our allies and freinds bought those systems because of Israel. How much economic value is Israel responsible for US weapon system? I really dont know, but as you can see, the Arab countries are still buying whatever Israel have-F16, F15, RADARS, MISSILES, just name the few

spot on, they contributed nothing to the R & D process & now get the cream of the Turkey Birds, to be used what againts west bank insurgent opns! no wonder they hate us.…

fly all the way across Iraq w/o refueling like from Kut to Rutba w/30 pax?

ok Joe…did u get that from a AIPAC press release?, or due u work at the Embassay!

spot on times 2x + some! & an easy bird to work on!

Now wonder our national debt keeps rising, borrow from the Chinese,support Isreal and back the Muslims,does not take a computer scientist to figure this out.

The V22 deaths would be a lot lower if the Marines had tested the thing with weights in the back instead of a platoon of Marines.

Pretty stupid for an aircraft that was problematic–

Since its been in service its been OK–


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