Israel Bumps Marines, Will Receive 6 Ospreys in 2 Years

Israel Bumps Marines, Will Receive 6 Ospreys in 2 Years

Israel has gone to the front of the Bell Boeing production line for the delivery within two years of six V-22 tilt-rotor Ospreys specially modified for the Israeli Defense Forces, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said Thursday.

Under the arrangement for the first foreign sale of the Ospreys, the Marine Corps has agreed to let Israel jump the line and take delivery of the next batch of tilt-rotors from the Corps, Hagel said.

“I’ve directed the Marine Corps to make sure this order is expedited [to show that] the Israeli-American defense relationship is stronger than ever,” Hagel said in a speech to the centennial meeting of the Anti-Defamation League in New York.

“To ensure that Israel receives the V-22s as soon as possible, the Marine Corps is moving Israel to the top of the production line,” defense officials said in a statement ahead of Hagel’s announcement. “Under this approach, Israel will begin taking delivery of their Ospreys, which will be modified to meet specific requirements of the IDF, in roughly two years.”

The complicated financial arrangements for the sale to Israel of Ospreys,anti-radiation missiles, advanced radars for its fleet of fighter jets, and KC-135 refueling aircraft was announced in Tel Aviv last April by Hagel.

The arms package for Israel was part of an overall $10 billion regional deal in which Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates would get advanced F-16 fighters, standoff missiles and smart bombs, Hagel said.

The Ospreys, which provide longer-range and faster troop carrying and supply missions than conventional helicopters, have a checkered history.

More than 30 Marines were killed in testing, and the aircraft survived numerous attempts to cancel the program over cost overruns and systems’ failures.

However, the Marine Corps has stressed that the Ospreys proved their worth in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the aircraft last year passed another hurdle when they were deployed for the first time to Japan over the protests of Okinawa residents.

The Osprey deal culminated a long courtship of Israel by the Marine Corps and Bell Boeing. Going back to early 2011, Israeli Air Force pilots were brought to the Marine air base in New River, N.C., to train on simulators and take test flights at the controls of the aircraft, said Marine Capt. Richard Ulsh, a Marine spokesman.

“No other (foreign) militaries have done that” or been afforded the opportunity, Ulsh said.

Last month, the head of Boeing’s rotorcraft division told Reuters that talks with Japan on the sale of Ospreys had accelerated since the deployment of the tilt-rotors to Okinawa last year.

“[Japanese defense officials have] started to see the capabilities because of the U.S. presence over there. They’re starting to resonate with the platform itself,” said Leanne Caret, vice president and general manager for vertical lift in Boeing’s defense division.

The U.S. has also provided briefings on the Osprey to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Italy, Brazil, Colombia, Singapore and Australia.

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Seen as how Israel is just a rogue US outpost, what’s the matter? YOU pay for ‘their’ Osprey’s anyway. I don’t see how SIX units end the world. I hope you can score some genuine export orders for it, you’ve paid dearly in R&D. Hopefully Japan, Australia etc buy some.

So now we are giving Israel V-22’s as foreign military aid. Nothing shows how much Obama loves Israel like the gift that keeps on giving.

You are an Agent Provocateur, but always interesting to read. But maybe the next generation of this type will be more technologically ready.

Hummm. So we “sell” Israel, our 51st state, the latest military equipment. Then “give” them military aid (money) to pay for it, including the likes of “their” ballistic missile defense (Iron Dome), which relies on U.S. technology, to defend themselves against Islamist countries like Saudi Arabia, who we also sell weapons to. Does the term “Merchants of Death” ring a bell?

–Cool! Our Marines won’t be the guinea pigs for the next gen V-22’s!

–Dfens– don’t go blaming Obama, as he has nothing to do with it. This aid is setup by Congress and I have NO problem letting another country test fly the latest designs to ensure they are 100% safe for OUR troops.

–Taxpayer, yes, just like Egypt, Pakistan, and Afghanistan (all of which get more aid than Israel, who had their aid cut), Congress gives them the money, tells them that 1/2 to 3/4 must be spent on US military goods, and the rest on US soft goods, then they take the money and pay US Companies, which in turn pay their workers.

I have NO problem with this– at least this way, the money is going to HARD WORKING Americans that deserve it, and not just those on welfare (which, to me, breaks down as 50% on welfare who need it, 50% who CHOOSE to be on it, and 100% of the wealthy, including Congress itself, that just legally steal from the taxpayers through wealthy tax cuts and tax law loopholes for what little taxes they do have left to pay).

And I think the movie was called “Lord of War” ;~)

Calling this a “sale” would be great if they were a stand-alone nation. But the reality is that the V-22’s are a “gift” from the US taxpayers, as part of the $3B annual military (and $1.4B civilian) aid package that legally we’re not supposed to give them (because they are a nuclear armed state).

I don’t think the V22 production line is ramped up to support additional orders, so something had to give. And if the truth be known I bet the Marines are not too unhappy to give up some of their Ospreys. The Osprey is NOT a great aircraft.

To the manufacturer, they are a sale. And that’s all that matters.

Can’t call them Obama-Ospreys, can we? Harhar.

Yeah, it’s another wonderful day to work for a defense contractor.

Actually the aid is provided in accordance with the Egypt-Isreal peace treaty. So thank Jimmy Carter and the Senate who approved it way back in 1980.

Last I checked, Obama is commander in chief, but I see your point regarding the fact that at least we are giving them a mostly American made vehicle as opposed to some Super Toucans or something like that.

We provide Israel with $3.1 billion per year. For you and me, anything running into the billions sounds like a mound of mullah. But it really isn’t — here are some totals for military spending per nation;

- US: $682 billion
– China: $166 billion
– Russia: $90 billion
– UK: $61 billion
– Japan $59 billion
– France: $58 billion
– Saudi: $56 billion (!)

- Turkey: $18 billion
– United Arab Emirates: $17 billion
– Israel: $14 billion

Put into context, the $3.1 billion that we contribute to Israel’s defense budget is critical to them, but not very much of a deal to us. In fact, how they have managed to survive the combined attacks thrown at them by the surrounding Islamic states is simply incredible. I think that it shows that there is a force more powerful than money that is keeping Israel afloat!


We provide Israel with $3.1 billion per year. For you and me, anything running into the billions sounds like a mound of mullah. But it really isn’t — here are some totals for military spending per nation;

- US: $682 billion
– China: $166 billion
– Russia: $90 billion
– UK: $61 billion
– Japan $59 billion
– France: $58 billion
– Saudi: $56 billion (!)

- Turkey: $18 billion
– United Arab Emirates: $17 billion
– Israel: $14 billion

Put into context, the $3.1 billion that we contribute to Israel’s defense budget is critical to them, but not very much of a deal to us. In fact, how they have managed to survive the combined attacks thrown at them by the surrounding Islamic states is simply incredible.


The money goes right back to US companies to pay US workers, taxes, etc. Do you just dislike Israel, or do you dislike Jews too?


Someone please explain to me why this headline should surprise anyone . The United States Marines do NOT enjoy a very “special relationship” with our Congress like Israel does. No one else does for that matter! It’s a “unique category”, which no one has ever defined, but which Congress bends over backwards to maintain. To get a fuller grasp on just how “special” this relationship is, just check out the voting record of our cowardly “public servants” when it comes to Israel’s interests. This is a Congress that has, LIKE NO OTHER POINT IN HISTORY, been dead-locked on all issues ‘domestic’ to the point of criminal behavior in depriving its citizens of needed assistance, while bending over backwards to respond to Israel’s every need. Now that’s what I call a “very special relationship”„in fact it’s so special that it is indistinguishable from one that would result from having a Congress filled with Israelites„, while, really, NOT ONE of our public servants was sent to Washington to represent Israel.

Actually, repeating the same argument over and over doesn’t make it true. The aid to Israel (and Egypt to for that matter) stems from an international treaty. It’s not aid or a gift, it’s a payoff for peace in the Middle East. If you don’t like it, blame Carter.

Yet another outrage in the making. The Israelis don’t want to be Our 51st State. Then the Israelis would have to pay US Federal Taxes. ($$$$$)

Best to control the US Congress and let Uncle Sucker (YOU) pay the BILLS for their Defense.
That’s only part of it, the Israelis want the US Military to attack Iran while they sit back and watch on TV.

Forget about what it is doing for ‘them’ —what is it doing for us? When did we adopt this nation? You know what you can do with your “context” Dave?

Covert aid predates many of the still living presidents.

“During the early 1960s, the U.S. government sought to establish a regional arms limitation agreement in the Middle East. The initiative lost steam in early 1965 after it was disclosed that the U.S. had been indirectly supplying weapons to Israel via West Germany since 1962, under the terms of a 1960 secret agreement to supply Israel with $80 million worth of armaments. The remainder of the agreement was fulfilled publicly, following its disclosure by the U.S., with Israel receiving shipments of M48 Patton tanks in 1965 and A-4E Skyhawk attack aircraft in 1968.”

And also ignores Nickel Grass, but that’s something else.

“In 1987, the United States granted Israel the status of major non-NATO ally, enabling it to compete equally with NATO and other US allies for contracts and purchase advanced US weapons systems. Israel became the largest recipient of U.S. military aid in the world“
From FAS: http://​www​.fas​.org/​s​g​p​/​c​r​s​/​m​i​d​e​a​s​t​/​I​B​8​5​0​6​6​.​pdf

“From 1949 through 1965, U.S.
aid to Israel averaged about $63 million per year, over 95% of which was economic
development assistance and food aid. A modest military loan program began in 1959. From
1966 through 1970, average aid per year increased to about $102 million, but military loans
increased to about 47% of the total. From 1971 to the present, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged
over $2 billion per year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance. Congress first
designated a specific amount of aid for Israel (an “earmark”) in 1971. Also in 1971,
economic assistance changed from specific programs, such as agricultural development, to
the Commodity Import Program (CIP) for purchase of U.S. goods. CIP ended in 1979,
replaced by largely unconditional direct transfers for budgetary support. The 1974
emergency aid for Israel, following the 1973 war, included the first military grant aid.
Economic aid became all grant cash transfer in 1981. Military aid became all grant in 1985.”

Also, didn’t Carter lose in ’79 and Reagan get swept in in the ‘80s?

Here are the real “Reasons” that Israel has been America’s # 1 Welfare State for the last 50 Years. —

American Jews spend large sums of Money on Pro Israeli Candidates in US Elections.
American Jews own most of the US News media, so the American People get lots of Pro Israeli Propaganda.
Most Americans don’t have a clue about American Foreign Policy and the US Congress wants it that way!

Plase Barry, even though I might ‘bring/word’ it provocatively, state me what is NOT a fact in my statement. You ‘give’ Israel 3 or 4 billion a year OVERTLY, and they ‘purchase’ US weapons. Well, it’s like my dad used to give me some money to buy him a present when I was a little boy:)

Indeed doubtom, did the American people get a vote in this? Is there even any ‘awareness’ among the American people? Even this ‘paltry’ 3 billion, could be spent to provide medical care to a million or 2 more people, or what have you. Your ‘security’ apparatus is so rogue, that NOTHING gets to be decided by the people. 30 billion a decade could have meant no more potholes on any single inch of interstate highway for example, or about 15 NEW or RENEWED airports, making them NOT look like makeshift, wartorn terminals. That’s what that ‘little’ money gets you.

Yes, because peace in the Middle East has been achieved ever since this treaty no? Giving a bunch of warring parties 10s of billions of dollars while they have NO peace, and the American cities and streets look like THEY were bombed? You guys, where is your sense of ME ME ME, and F the rest? I mean isn’t that inherent to Americanism? How can this be such largely ommited when it comes to foreign aid?

Ah, every piece of critisism of Israel means we just love the Holocaust. Great, now go complain at the wall.

Like in Iraq. Luckily, the president you all love to hate, seems to be able to resist it when it comes to EYE-RAN. You guys need to put down the glasses of hate and partisamism, and read up on you history from BOTH sides and then decide. Be glad you personally if a soldier, or your buddies aren’t being thrown into the meat grinder.

Wow, so the knowledge does exist. Why aren’t you guys doing anything about it? I don’t mind Israel per se, but I DO mind countries meddling in other country’s affairs, if anything more than ‘advice’. Meddling is colonialism. Sad that the superpower is being colonized by a little power. It’s quite puzzling, how ever much I read about it. I’m perplexed.

This is why it must be made compulsory for all American children to visit the holocaust museum. So that it is made clear to them that we have a moral debit and thus must look after Israel forever.

There is a reason why the holocaust museum is in our national mall not Berlin.

government money that pays for taxes LOL

Don’t you all Know that Israel is paying just as much if not more than we are? Now why can’t Bell Boeing speed up production is beyond me!? Israel getting them before we do is interesting. Be careful what you say about Israel “Those that curse you I will curse and those that bless you I will bless.” And any of that don’t think this is relevant just look at the Nazi. 1and every 3 Germans did not survive WW2!

I’m sorry, has there been a war between Isreal and Egypt since 1973? Or Syria (OK Bekaa Valley was fun but did not lead to a wider war) Or even Jordan? So yes, compared to the way it was when Europe ran the show, 48,56, 67, and 73, it’s been relatively peaceful. And made a relatively hot area of the Cold War decidedly colder. So overall, it worked fine for what is relatively peanuts to the US.

Any debate about Israel requires a dispassionate discussion of the facts. Let’s start here: Fact 1: Israel is a theocracy. Fact 2: The U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but does not support any. Fact 3: It appears that a strong (and wealthy) group of American Jews who want to ensure the survival of their religious homeland (along with right-wing American evangelical fanatics who believe Jesus is coming back or that the destruction of the “Holy Land”) has subverted our Constitution to use American tax dollars to support a theocracy.

Discussion: Why is it America’s business to support a theocracy? If so, why aren’t we supporting ALL religions, including Islam? We do. We sell them all armaments so the ycan kill each other. Now how religious is that!

Excellent post blight (as usual!) but you left out a few major military events..1) the attack by the IDF on the USS Liberty, killing & wounded all crew members in ’67. 2) The marine barracks bombing in Beirut in ’83. It has been documented that IDF & Mossad “assets” had recieved hard evidence that Hussein Dehghan, a Revolutionary Guard commander, tasked with “standing up” Hezbollah” in the Beeka valley, was involved in the planning, implementing & executing the attack. Israel stood silent on their knowledge with the alleged comment; that if America wants to involve itself in the middle east, then they will pay the price. BTW the “new” Iranian mullah crowd appointed him as defence minister. The final insult to the American people was the fielding of up-armored Humvee’s. I remember reserve componet units on rotational deployments to Iraq w/o them, when the US supplied them to the IDF. Someone in the DOD must have calculated an American farmer’s life from Kansas, mobilized & deployed wasn’t as important as an Israeli patroling the “West Bank” settlements. Beware of AIPAC, they play the L & K st. crowd in D.C. like a deck of cards.…. I will not waste ur time on copy right infringement of American military hardware or Israeli money laundering opns… don’t want to be labelled an “anti-semite”.….…..

Curt: that’s true 4 Egypt, basically we were paying off Sadat for peace with Israel. We know how that worked out 4 him. But economic & military aid to Israel directly & through our proxys pre-date the Camp David Accords. The fact the Begin was allowed in the White house was insulting to me as an American. He was involved in the bombing of the King David hotel in “Palestine” killing 40+ British officers. He’s no better than Arafat.…

Dave: you left out the “economic aide” & the “special” status that they enjoy with respect to American intell “sharing”.…however lop-sided that sometimes is.….… & then theirs the “improvement” of American supplied weapon systems, that are then offered for sale on the international market place.….……

Shh, we’re not supposed to talk about the Irgun terrorists.

I forgot that the Israelis had armored humvees too. Had to dig for that. Turns out they contracted to O’Gara, but I wasn’t sure if O’Gara production continued for the IDF from 2003 onwards; though it would seem that the IDF ended up doing the retrofits in Israel instead, so maybe the American contractors they picked were re-tasked with Humvee kits for Americans?

Edit: Didn’t realize this back then, but Israel ended up sending 40 humvees back to the Americans (out of a 120 armored humvee order). I consider it a down payment for Nickel Grass. That said, our production of kits and armored humvees are pretty crappy. http://​www​.freerepublic​.com/​f​o​c​u​s​/​f​-​n​e​w​s​/​1​1​1​7​2​04/

What’s interesting is that we’re sending Humvees to Israel, and MRAP’s to American law enforcement. Hmm…

> Now why can’t Bell Boeing speed up production is beyond me!?

I see 2 benefits:
–By delaying the purchase of the osprey, more money is available for the marines.
–By keeping the same production rate, it mean that the productions line will stay open longer.

Wait, up to TWO YEARS to deliver 6 V-22s? What kind of production is that?

Word up. So what Israeli MOSAD got a few more accident prone planes.

Low production because of low procurement.

Stepping up procurement requires expenditure on infrastructure costs. To be super-cheap, you set up as little infrastructure as possible and drip-produce vehicles on it. It catches you with your pants down when unarmored Humvees are getting trashed and you want armored ones tomorrow…one does not simply walk into factory and ask for tripled production tomorrow.

As usual foreign countrys get our newest weapons systems becouse congress can’t get there act together

Iron Dome DOES NOT RELY ON U.S. TECHNOLOGY! It was an entirely Israeli funded and designed system.

The U.S. gave a measly $600 million for the entire technological transfer of data of the entire program.

The IDF armored HMWWV’s were uparmored by PLASAN, an Israeli company.

How the hell is Israel a theocracy?

Theocracy: a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
the commonwealth of Israel from the time of Moses until the election of Saul as King.

How about you make up some nonsense that even passes the smell test.

Yes, in a way, he was. The Irgun warned the Brits before they bombed the King David hotel to send all civilians away. And given that it was used as a military station by the Brits it was a legitimate military target.

Because the US isn’t supporting religions but NATIONS. And you ridiculous question regarding Islam in in so far obsolete as the US is paying Egypt, for example…

It’s kind of a vicious circle. If the production rates are indeed so slow, then that is a major reason for the cost. And the primary reason the V-22 is selling slowly is due to the cost. So low orders causes expensive low-volume production, which causes prospective customers to balk at the cost.

Funny how the death spiral only goes one way LOL

In the real economy new customers pay the reduce rates of greater production not the existing rates.

The death spiral is an artifact of a planned economy where the contractor refuses to take any risk and loads it all on the customers with interest.

Osprey production is typical for the defense industries — slow expensive cottage industry production with little innovation since the 50s.

There is no incentive for productivity increases because lower costs just mean lower profits. Its basically teh same system as the soviet union and it will collapse eventually too.

It always amaze me how a well chosen name can influence perception, and one or two things. Think about it.

>Osprey production is typical for the defense industries — slow expensive cottage industry production with little innovation since the 50s.

For that point majr0d is right. The Osprey is an innovation over the previous one. More range, higher speed, more payload.

It have some drawback but properly used it’s a good tool. At least they are not trying to do like the f-35, that is to pretend that it’s the best thing since sliced bread and that everything is obsolete because it’s a new generation, and that ordering more of them will make them so cheaper and more viable.

The US ‘occupies’ Germany, in a ‘friendly’ way. Nobody asked them, it’s what you imposed after ww2, so don’t cry wolf oke? And you’re pulling out of Germany also, at least partially. So I see not the point you’re trying to make. Bit of misreasoning.

Because the US massacred them? No. Because the US is very powerful and they have influence in the US. Nice to have a big strong buddy to control.

I wills do that.…..

Yep…spot on! Joe the nip. The results of an attack on a legitimate military target: 91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine. 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public. Mighty fine attack! I salute the Irguns’ creativeness in placing aprox. 700 lbs of explosives so close to the British Army HQ’s! They got 13 soldiers!, the rest.……well the #‘s speak 4 themselves. The explosion caused more casualties than any subsequent bombing carried out in the Arab-Israeli conflict & I think 2 date…correct me if I’m wrong.

Concerned European: while I don’t agree with most of your posts.… I 2 am perplexed. But I understand how our “Constitutional Republic‘s” legislative branch works. I understand the power & influence of AIPAC. Having been born & raised in NYC, I think I understand American Jewry, & respect its power, wealth & influence. While some of my posts may be viewed as anti-Semitic, I’m a unaffiliated, moderate live & let live kind of person, who has strong opinions about certain issues. Having been born & raised in NYC, I think I understand American Jewry. I remember the day’s of the JDL & its leader, Rabbi Meir Kahane. His quote I like the most: “I know & respect that elections must be limited only to those who understand that the Arabs are the deadly enemy of the Jewish state, who would bring on us a slow Auschwitz — not with gas, but with knives and hatchets“. Powerful words that speak 4 themselves.

Changing your name to ZenCOL?? Please don’t. ;-)

Sell the junk V-22’s, all of ‘em to the Israelis; there had long been a better, safer technology in the VJ-101 and the Dornier Do-31 craft from the last century. They have effective turbojet vector (gimballed) thrusters and they were eventually successfully flown and tested. The rotor systems are archaic, dinosauric and seriously dangerous. Politicians of the 1950–60’s axed the production program of what could have been an excellent fleet of VTOL military utility aircraft.

The Israelis often stated they wanted the CH-53K, not the V-22. The K will have more range and five times more payload than the V-22, even though they are the same size in empty weight!. It’s cabin is twice as big and can carry two Hummers or standard aircraft pallets. The V-22 can’t even fit an old Jeep! I love it when some say they will use their V-22s against Iran? How, by strafing Iran with their 7.62mm ramp gun?

Yeah, give us all $3 billion, since it’s not that much.

So? Are you calling the US-Army terrorist just because there are civilian casualties as a result of the drone strikes in Yemen or Pakistan?
How can it be the Irgun’s fault if the Brits did it “the Palestinian way” and kept a lot of civilians to die and cry about?

True, but it was codified in a treaty at Camp David, or at least the military aid was. So, it becomes an obligation of the US and is not appropriated by Congress. In that regard, it is like the lease Money for Gitmo. As such, it is not like the aid to say, Yemen, which will come and go.

Well, I don’t remember Israel ever asking the US to fight its wars for them. As they are small country, they have asked for finacial help, but we have always gotten access an intelligence from them also.

NO! This is saying that this is what happens to the Israelites are not to be taken lightly because of the of consequences that follow. Now if United States of America turns it’s back on Israel as it is sadly been doing in resent years the maybe 1 and every 3 Americans will not survive WW3! So just watch it!

WHO needs help Joe?

Perhaps the VIP/ media HMX-1 MV-22s could be deferred and provided to the Israel in lieu of the combat MV-22s for the US Marines. :)

No the osprey is a very poor design driven by Bell marketing and PR. In fact the initial designer was so disgusted with its poor characteristics that he resigned.

In the real world there are a lot of missions that need aircraft like characteristics and a lot that need helicopter like characteristics but very few that need half of each. The fact is that the V-22 is a poor aircraft and a very poor helicopter. It hasn’t hit some mission sweet-spot its out in no-mans land where there are few missions.

Combine that with the fact that it costs the same a 3 aircraft and 3 helicopters and it becomes a joke. Customer after customer has looked at the performance of the V-22 and seen that it is poor that’s why we have to give them away to the Israelis (who don’t want them) to get a “foreign sale”.

>How, by strafing Iran with their 7.62mm ramp gun?

vortex ring state into the presidential palace maybe ?

Joe the nip: 1st, I don’t understand ur post. 2nd, I find it offensive to ALL Uniformed U.S. Military Services that u compare this attack to our RPV & counter-terrorism programs. WE target terrorists, not gov’t officals & civ’s not related in any way to the “counter-insurge.” of the AO! I AM U.S. Army & never NEVER infered our brave men & women as “terrorists”! Your rationalization that it was done the “The Palestinian Way” is cheap & facetious. It was perpretrated as a response to Operation Agatha. The majority of the explosives were placed under the section of the hotel housing the governmental authority. A small “street” explosion was detonated, to draw “rubber-neckers”, increasing the # of civilian victims. British soldiers fired upon fleeing suspects, (the bombers?). The explosion was to inflict max. damage on part of the bldg w/the governing authority. The bomb exploded lunch time, 4 max. traffic. Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, noted that the majority of the dead had been members of his own personal staff. He said, “British, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians; senior officers, police, my orderly, my chauffeur, messengers, guards, men and women — young and old — they were my friends.” yeah…a lot of Palestinian’s.….… killed the “Palestinian Way” The bottom line is that in the Israeli-Arab situation BOTH sides have bloody hands!

How ’bout “Sphinx”.… A puzzling, mysterious, or inscrutable person ? sound better ?

>In fact the initial designer was so disgusted with its poor characteristics that he resigned.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a failure. Yes it have development issue, but the truth is, that’s an innovative design. The designer may have resigned because he was expecting more with all the energy and perhaps believe that someone else in charge would have yielded better results. The fact that nobody else build an helicopter like this mean that it’s *really* hard. That’s a young design that have yet to release all its potential, that’s it.

>In the real world there are a lot of missions that need aircraft like characteristics and a lot that need helicopter like characteristics but very few that need half of each. .….….

Wrong. Again, it got more range, it’s faster and it can fly higher. I never said that it’s the solution to any problems either, but to say that it’s useless because it’s neither a pure helicopter nor a pure aircraft is a pure nonsense.

>Combine that with the fact that it costs the same a 3 aircraft and 3 helicopters and it becomes a joke.

You mean 3 helicopter and 3 aircraft of your choice? All I need is to look at the cost of an helicopter mentioned inside another thread to prove it wrong. Sikorsky CH-53K: $84.9M(FY2013) vs. Osprey: $69.3M (FY2012).

Again, it’s not the solution to any problems. I’d say it can be useful for spec ops, for sending qrf (by assuming the weather is not too bad), or anything where you need to send men or supply quick and far away; it can definitely be useful, probably not very necessary for smaller air force. But that doesn’t make it a joke or useless either.

As long as it used in small quantity despite its high development cost, I am for it. And the day it will be more resistant to adverse condition then it will make a really superb naval platform, in this case much more useful and polyvalent than an helicopter.

The Israelis will use these V-22s for a one-way mission into Iran to hit the nuke sites.

Some call of duty fantasy where 6 Ospreys drop out Sayeret Matkal on Fordo, cut their way through perimeter security, kill everyone inside, then collapse the mountain on itself with explosives?

Iran will have the last laugh when they go through the blast doors and find the place is…empty.


Israel is not our 51st state. More like the U.S.A. is an off shore part of Israel. If you will remember, several times under GW Bush when Nathanyhau(?sp) visited the White House, Nathanyahu invited Bush into “his” (Nathanyahu’s) White House.

Why dont you Wake Up.Isreali Help in Defense Projects always helps Us. Sorry You Must be a Liberal Who only Thinks The Arabs deserve Our Help,WAKEUP!

don’t you mean every potus since the fifty’s . not slinging dirt just saying

looks as if the payoff didn’t work very well. Stop paying them. Stop most military foreign aid, especially to Islamic countries.

Yes Amigo, that’s what it take’s for you to be free and speak your opinion freely, and not get hauled out of bed in the middle of the night and be sent to a work camp. People like you don’t realize what it takes to be free.
You should have served someone besides yourself while enjoying it all.
Former Marine

Is everyone so stupid not to see the reason? American Jews buy the congress seats with there own. Or they buy the rest that will favor Israel. Jews make up one half of one percent of the American population, but have about thirty or more percent of the seats in congress. So why is everyone so saprised? Next time you vote think of this!

Nice job admin, no sign of a bias there.

You sound young and confused here are a few rules for your edification…
1) You cant fix a fundamentally bad idea with better implementation
2) If nobody want the job done then doing it really well isn’t worth much
3) If you are going to use a counter-example choose one that doesn’t support the other side

Better Israel than the Muslim Brotherhood, that the Rats in the current administration seem to favor..

Your diction gives you away… Go away. You don’t ‘Saprise’ us.

I’m also outraged at the amount we donate to Israel under pressure from the lobbyists who seem to feed a fraction of our donation back to the coffers of politicians to insure their support! I like having an apparent democracy in the Middle East, and I would approve of some military backing to protect it in a jam, like we did during Desert Storm, but to see them dictating US policy and foreign aid allocations is just unpalatable.

… and furthermore, I’ll bet that when they loose soldiers due to an Osprey crash, they are going to sue the U.S.

Israel isn’t a theocracy. It is a parliamentary democracy. Muslims, Druze and other religious people as well as the Jews are represented in their parliament.

That you have to lie tells us about the value of your position.

Or perhaps you are too stupid to see that Israel and the Jews are the good guys, the people they fight are the bad guys.

1.a)Before qualifying a “bad idea” of fundamental, you got to determine the meaning of fundamental.
b)Before qualifying an “idea” of bad, you got to figure out what is a bad idea in the first place.
2. You just presented a candidate of a fundamentally bad idea. Think outside the box. (see the quote below)
3. I don’t care if you consider that my counter-example support the other side. I will repeat again, I see a lot of potential in the osprey and in order to use it appropriately it is imperative to be aware of its negative characteristic. Fanatism is not the solution.

I have watched a documentary about the osprey on youtube named ‘Osprey : Documentary on the V22 Osprey’ and while IMHO the documentary give a first bad impression, it then present some of its advantages. Like its higher altitude and counter-measure that protect it against RPG attack, like the fact that it got enough range to cover an entire country, like the fact that it once landed in a desert the pilot can rotate the nacelles to keep the cloud of dust away thus clearing the view to the troops taking off.

I will repeat again, your concept that the V-22 is useless because it’s neither an aircraft nor an helicopter but rather an half-helicopter half-aircraft is a fundamentally bad. ‘Helicopter’ and ‘Aircraft’ are two term describing two flying object having distinct method to stay in the air. They got different characteristic, does it mean that combining them is a nonsense?

While you pretend that my arguments are supporting the other side you are short of words. Your arguments please.

“Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it.”
–Mahatma Gandhi

Nice job deleting the posts admin, no sign of bias there.

LOL, Israel offered to help, the U.S. refused as it would antagonize the Muslim countries that were part of the coalition.

In fact, it was Israel that attacked the Iraqi WMD program early on which put a stop to it; and was criticized by the U.S. at the time for doing so.

But nice try there with your revisionist history.

The U.S. Marines DO have a “special relationship” with the Congress. Most of the members of congress know that they are getting more “bang for the buck” when funding the USMC.
A Retired Marine

Dave is that supposed to make me feel better about the billions of dollars we have been giving Israel? What’s not being said is that in addition to the US Taxpayer gifting Israel all this money they demand an offset whereas a portion of the aircraft is built in Israel. When there is bread in the house I believe it should be shared with our allies but our economy is weak our infrastructure is fractured, roads and bridges in bad shape, more people are dropping out of the labor market because they cannot find jobs, in other words we have a fragile economy. Charity begins at home, lets take care of our country’s financial problems first then and only then share the wealth.

Well, as a retired Marine who currently works on the Osprey for Boeing, I can say that the Marine Corps will miss the aircraft. But if Israel buys them then that would push other foreign countries to buy them. This lowers the overall cost to the Corps and is good for both Bell and Boeing because it extends the production line and keeps people employed. As for how great the airplane is, it is not a maintenance friendly airplane, but the performance is awesome and it can do some amazing things. Just wish they would have talked to the mechanics while they were building it, but then again all mechanics say that about any aircraft.

Seems to me you should review your so called “facts”. Israel has a democracy government with an elected Prime Minister. All religions are welcome and are actually practiced there. Your other 2 “facts” are pure supposition. So turn off your CNN and do some research first.

ACTUALLY, we’ve ALWAYS been Israel’s friend, UNTIL 0bammy took office. He has been against Israel (supporting the Hamas) ever since he took office.

*Seeing how

Actually, Bush (which really surprised me) told Israel to sit it out. I think he was afraid that they would utterly destroy the entire Middle East…
Oh that “intel”? Came from the Brits, mate.

First off, we begged Israel to stay out of the first gulf war so we could build our coalition, even when they were getting hit by scud’s. The CIA is the organization that stated Iraq had WMS’s, which obviously they did since they used it on the Kurds in the past, just not to the extent we thought they had.

Until the Saudis buy several hundred, Osprey will continue in very low trickle-production. We count on the Middle East to subsidize our arms industry, using petrodollars from every corner of the world.

$3.1B was printed up by Ben to pay for last night’s WH dinner…

I told my buddy 23 years ago I was glad I’d be retired before the Osprey was ever in service. At that time the were crashing all the time..

Talk about no knowledge about the V22. All but one of the pre-production/testing crashes were 100% pilot error. One was a mechanical error that killed the crew of 4. Actually one of the best accident records of any military aircraft and it has been exceptional in operations. turbojet vector thrusters are basically worthless off pavement as they create debris that destroys engines — that is why the Do-31 and VJ-101 never got into production.

Interesting point Rick. The President’s support has been pretty slim from my perspective. Just what support, financial, material or moral has he given them? Best guess you would be unhappy with Obama if he supported a Mother’s Day resolution.

It’s not only Obama; it was also G. W. Bush, Clinton, etc.. Israel owns and occupies just like Palestine the U.S. Congress. I am surprised how many American are so stupid not realizing that American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) lobbyist controls the U.S. Congress. Why do you think American Jews are allowed to go to Israel and serve in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) instead in the U.S. Armed Forces? Then those Jews who have served in the IDF come back to the USA and hold TOP Secret Clearance jobs; like Rahm Emanuel who served as the former White House Chief of Staff. Wake up America!!
Look at all the NEOCONS who made us go to war in Iraq; they are 90% American Jews, who wanted the U.S. military to destroy Saddam Hussein, on Israel behalf. The only Arab leader who launched scud missiles in Israel. Wake up America!!

Of Course, if you take other people’s land and build your own settlements; you’ll pay a price for it. Israel needs to give the Palestinians their land as prescribed at the U.N. since 1948.

Good. They probably just saved several Marine lives by them not having to fly in them.

Oh, well…another source of data on routine and high intensity ops in areas with a lot of abrasive particles floating around won’t hurt us. As long as the Israelis do keep us posted.

And who knows — maybe they will figure out how to make an Osprey bounce.

lollll…“several”? As many as 36 *…how many did we “sell” them?

Former Marine? No such thing! Where the hell have you been, say for the last 238 years? Once a Marine, Always a Marine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn’t it fascinating how our own government continues to sale weapons of destruction to other countries, and weapon systems, that eventually come back and bite the UN in the behind? And sooner or later who pays this huge price — the American military that has to face the brunt of our own firepower.

I can imagine the mixed relief with a ting of guilt for thousands of U.S. Marines who now realize they’ve been spared a dangerous and doubtful future with this aircraft as the latest USMC delivery is redirected to go to the Israeli’s who will likely suffer the very fate the Marines have avoided.

It doesn’t take two years to deliver the aircraft. It takes that long to get the effort proposed, contracted and aircraft delivered.

Put arms in the big fat middle of the problem! Makes sense to me! The American people have lost their balls — let some other MFer fight for us! ( I’m really just spoiling here). But really! Why not?

We should give Isarel the Marines as well. As they say in Great Britain “Saves the trouble of builing two
houses”. v

Uh — I think it has been about 4000 years hasn’t it by now?

Yeah! I wonder why that is! You suppose? — HATE– maybe? HA!

Sure we do it all the time — ’cause they ain’t got no deed! HA! Or the dupe didn’t pay they property taxes! Ever hear about how we screwed the Native Americans? I don’t condone it — but it still happens to this day — and nobody talks about how Jewish immigrants lost their land with no compensation, from Russia and all over the world since WW2 — Oh noes! We don’t wanna talk about that! :)

Yeah — like other middle eastern countries aren’t governed by theocracies — PHTTTT! :P

Who owns/controls the arms companies? Who starts al the wars? Who profits from the wars? That answer your question?

LIke we ain’t kissing a dozen Middle Eastern theocracies? Man you are ignorant!

US Army Bases in Saudi Arabia

Dhahran AB
Eskan Village
Jeddah AB
Khamis Mushayt AB
Khobar Towers
King Khalid Military City
Prince Sultan AB
Riyadh AB
Tabuk AB
Taif AB
Khobar Towers
King Khalid Military City
Prince Sultan AB
Riyadh AB
Tabuk AB
Taif AB

US Army Bases in United Arab Emirates

Al Dhafra AB
Fujairah IAP
Jebel Ali
Mina Zayed
Port Rashid

US Army Bases in Bahrain

Mina Salman
Shaikh Isa AB

US Army Bases in Oman

Masirah AB
Mina Qabus
Al Musnana AB
Seeb AB
Thumrait AB

US Army Bases in Qatar

Al Udeid AB
Camp Snoopy
Camp As Sayliyah QA
Doha IAP
Umm Said
Falcon-78 ASP

US Army Bases in Iraq (general locations sorted by number of soldiers)

Abu Ghraib Prison
Al Asad Air Base
Al Tahreer
Al-Hurya Al-Awal
Balad Air Base
Camp Al-Nasr
Camp Blue Diamond
Camp Brassfield-Mora
Camp Caldwell
Camp Cedar
Camp Cuervo
Camp Danger
Camp Dragoon
Camp Falcon
Camp Fallujah
Camp Freedom I
Camp Hope
Camp Hurricane Pt.
Camp Junction City
Camp Liberty
Camp Liberty
Camp Lima
Camp Manhattan
Camp Performance
Camp Stryker
Camp Sustainer
Camp Taji
FOB Duke
FOB Echo
FOB Iskandariyah
FOB Pacesetter
FOB Pack Horse
FOB Ridgeway
FOB Scania
FOB Speicher
FOB Summerall
Log Base Seitz
LSA Blackjack East
Mosul Air Base
Tallil Air Base
Tikrit Palace complex

SCREW ISRAEL! Why should the U.S. prop up this arrogant bully of the Middle East? Israel continues to confiscate Palestinian property and relocate Palestinians. Didn’t something like that occur in Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s? Where is the justice and what does that say for American values? Israel harbors U.S. criminals and will not extradite them if they are Jewish; recall Samuel Shenbein who murdered 17 year old Alfredo Enrique Tollo and then fled to Israel to avoid prosecution in the U.S. It’s no wonder the U.S. is hated by most of the Arab world. Israel is not held in high regard by many Americans. The U.S. needs to get out of the business of propping up Israel and let Israel fight its own battles.

The world has always known that Americans were ignorant and reading some of the posts here only makes that conviction stronger.Israel is not a theocracy,it is the only democracy in the region and the only trustworthy ally in the region.The US have never attacked another country on behalf of Israel,they (the Israelis) do that by themselves and are always successful.Unlike the Americans.The reason why so many Jews seat in Congress/Senate might be because they’re smarter (American Jews who’ve won Nobel prizes,the best doctors and scientists in this country are Jews) not like the rest of the left wing whiners.Now back to the Osprey,it’s an excellent aircraft and the majority of its accidents were caused by human error.

Are they any more “theocratic” than America? Do they have a religious branch of the government that can veto laws if they are insufficiently ideological? Like the United States, they straddle a place between state lassiez-faire religion (or North Korea’s state-imposed atheism, love only the Great Successor) and Saudi Virtue and Prevention of Vice police, the Taliban, Iran’s Guardian Council…

Turkey, don’t cry…there there now. Turkey has been/was secular since Ataturk.
Jordan’s a constitutional monarchy, which can’t be all that bad.
Egypt is a faux-democracy now, and so is Iraq, and maybe even Iran.

It’s easy to point to “Jews in high places”, but nobody asks: how do they get there asides from insinuating evil conspiracy. You don’t get to Congress without being voted in. And there aren’t that many Jews to stuff ballots. They are competent, and come from a culture of competence.

Israel as a country is based on religion and therefore is a “theocracy,” even if they elect a parliament for their internal governance. All of the Middle East Islamic countries are also theocracies. My point is: Why is a nation based on principles of freedom of religion but non-interference, interfering with both the internal affairs and regional affairs of peoples who have been warring with each for thousands of years? We have no dog is this fight other than the oil and selling the weapons with which they will keep killing themselves. Religion is the problem. Time to pull out all our troops and close our bases and go home.

Dave: Amen to the force more powerful than money keeping Israel afloat despite the attacks by Islamic states in the region.

What’s distressing is that Israel is not that big; and even if every last Palestinian is booted off it’s still a very tiny country. Geopolitical security comes from good terms with your neighbors and a robust military capability, not from populating every inch that you can and creating a PR nightmare.

At the end of the day, Judaism is safer for the diaspora. Even if Israel is destroyed, overseas Jews will carry on until it is safe to return to Israel.

Many in Washington don’t seem to have any allegiance to their own country, let alone the military. Others are “Israel Firsters”.

We don’t have to worry about of foreign military destroying us. Our own politicians will beat them to the punch!

You speculate that, “The Osprey is NOT a great aircraft.” I don’t know the source of your negative conclusions; however the those whom I know who have flown and/or who were supported by it the Osprey in combat (Marines and special operation users) generally disagree with you.. They find Ospey to be a monumental improvement over the outdated birds they replace, giving vastly improved capability to air and ground commanders.

The MV-22B is not a great value for the money. If it was, Bell/Boeing would have international countries lining up at their door pleading for more international sales. This is not the case. There is no speculation involved here. This is simply a fact. That the MV-22B is an improvement in over the outdated birds it replaced is not in dispute, but this does not make it a great aircraft. The Brewster Buffalo was an improvement over the Sopwith Camel, but this did not make the Buffalo a great aircraft.

On what facts to you base your accusation that Israel is a theocracy? Please provide sources.

Israel is one of the few country’s in the middle east who has a valid parliament and has representatives from different religions in it.

The Osprey had early problems mostly because of the rush to get it out to the troops without a full program of debugging. As an engineer, I worked on this aircraft and it is a technical wonder. As a veteran, I would have loved to have access to this aircraft when I was in uniform. The negative comments I see on this and other sites are usually generated by naysayers who have probably never seen this aircraft in action.

1 in 3 Germans did not survive ww2??

That is not correct

Please review thisA. Population Balance for Germany in 1937 borders: May 1939 to October 1946

According to West German Government 1956

Description Amount
Population May 1939 Census 69,310,000
Live Births 8,670,000
Net Immigration-German Refugees 4,080,000
Subtotal Additions 12,750,000
Civilians-Death by natural causes (7,130,000)
Civilians Killed in Air war (410,000)
Civilians Killed in 1945 Land Battles (20,000)
Military Dead (3,760,000)
POW held by Allies (1,750,000)
Germans remaining in Poland (1,750,000)
Germans Remaining Abroad (130,000)
Expulsion and Deportation Civilian Dead/Missing (1,260,000)
Emigrated & Murdered Jews (200,000)
Net Emigration of Foreign Population (200,000)
Other, Misc. (140,000)
Subtotal Reductions (16,750,000)
Population October 1946 Census 65,310,000
Sources for figures: Wirtschaft und Statistik October 1956, Journal published by Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland. (German government Statistical Office)


1-Population May 1939 Census– Figures are for Germany in 1937 borders and does not include Austria and the ethnic Germans of East Europe.[84]

How did the Jews get nukes without R & D? Did the US govt turn over the nukes to Israel?
Something smells about this deal with the MV-22s! Is it true that over twenty percent of the seats in Congress are owned by Jews? Just asking.

Now, now, I’m sure he’d do just as good a job with that as he’s done with Obama-care.

Given the choice, I’d rather have a president that was owned by Israel than one owned by China or Saudi Arabia. Hell, it’s not in Israel’s best interest to see us on our knees.

The end point in your data is in ’46. Many German POWs were returned from Soviet gulags in the later 40’s and even the ‘50s.

Many Germans from eastern Europe were displaced and deported (Germans in Poland, Romania, perhaps even Volga Germans), which would serve as net influx of Germans into West Germany (they are your 4M Germans).

A more basic question may be: “How many citizens of pre-WW2 Germany were alive post-war”?

The interesting project would be to cross-ref the German census data (thanks IBM/Hollerith) from pre– and post– war, and determine how many pre-war Germans were still alive as of the first post-war census. This would be somewhat challenging considering many Germans were trapped in East Germany; perhaps one could restrict this exercise to western areas that became “West Germany”.

Great post about the numbers. The great benefits company, aka us army has a budget that exceeds that of the whole military budget of china and a whole slew of other countries. The Marine Corps budget comprises
6% of the navy. Marine Corps gives money BACK to the country-Rumsfeld insisted they take more. A base was built for them in Afghanistan at a cost of 32 million. They never wanted it or used it. Marines will spend their resources on 3 things. Training(weapons-combat training-upkeep on firing ranges)-Martial Arts and stocking and maintaining weight rooms, Just good old fashion Marine Corps pt.

No if Israel became our 50th state we would give them a dispensation so they wouldnt have to pay any taxes. They areafter all Godschosen people.


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