Reports: Kerry Would Put US Troops in Palestine

Reports: Kerry Would Put US Troops in Palestine

The State Department is not commenting on reports that Secretary of State John Kerry’s proposed framework for a final peace deal between Israel and a Palestinian state that would have American troops pulling security in the Jordan Valley.

Kerry supposedly would have U.S. troops in the Jordan Valley to prevent anti-Israel elements coming out of Jordan reaching Israel through the new state, according to reports in the London-based daily A-Sharq al-Awsat and Debkafile, an Israeli intelligence and security news service.

Both outlets indicated Kerry’s move was owed to Palestinian insistence that Israel remove all its forces and settlements from the valley as part of a final peace deal.


During a State Department press conference on Monday, Deputy Spokeswoman Marie Harf would not comment on questions relating to the framework that Kerry will be proposing.

The Times of Israel quoted the former commander of the IDF in the West Bank as saying Israeli security requires Israeli troops along the valley.

“I wouldn’t rely on foreign forces,” Maj. Gen.  Avi Mizrahi said. “Our history shows that every time the deployment of international forces was tried in one form or another, their output in the field was not what we wanted. We need to rely on ourselves.”

Harf on Monday also declined to discuss another report out of Israel, that Kerry is ready to seek freedom for convicted spy Jonathan Pollard if Israel will complete an ongoing release of Palestinian prisoners that is intended to keep peace talks going.

The supposed deal was first reported by Israel’s Channel 10 television several days ago.

Pollard was a Navy civilian analyst when he was convicted in 1986 of supplying thousands of classified and secret documents to Israel. The U.S. has never provided an accounting of just what Pollard gave the Israelis. Some reports, including by longtime investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, indicate Israel “repackaged” some of the intel and provided it to the Soviet Union in exchange for Jewish emigration to Israel.

Pollard was sentenced to life for his espionage. Over the years Israeli officials have sought his release and may have come close in 1998 when President Bill Clinton considered freeing him as part of getting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to agree a plan to reinvigorate plans designed to – once again—bring peace to the Middle East.

Clinton dropped the plan after then-CIA Director George Tenet said he would resign if Pollard was freed.

“If a spy is let out as a consequence of these negotiations, I will never be able to lead my building,” Tenet, writing years later in his book, At the Center of the Storm, recalled telling Clinton. “I just want you to know that I appreciate the fact that you’ve allowed me to serve and I appreciate the opportunity you’ve given me, but I won’t be your CIA director in the morning” if Pollard is released.

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So how many MP units we have in this country that are going to pull this duty

Liberals, because when we see the last stable non Islamist state in the region we decide to make sure it gets fucked.

Sorry Kerry. I know how State will fuck this up 6 ways from Sunday even if they wanted it to work. And considering the amount of people at State in high positions who seen to think the world would be better off if the Israelis “Knew their place” its going to be designed to fail.

Let the Israelis handle this. We can provide support but that is it.

Kerry, the congress and the senate can go first!

“Harf on Monday also declined to discuss another report out of Israel, that Kerry is ready to seek freedom for convicted spy Jonathan Pollard if Israel will complete an ongoing release of Palestinian prisoners that is intended to keep peace talks going…“
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I sincerely hope this isn’t true — regardless — we should’ve fed that traitor to the sharks. Even if it does keep the talks going — the smart money says the talks stop VERY shortly thereafter.

Kerry is a douche bag, just like Pollard. Obama will carry the douche if he lets Pollard free.

Is this guy totally nuts or what? .…. “Into the Valley of Death rode the 600″.….. Sounds like Mogadishu all over again…

John, just hold their coats and let them slug it out, or we will be involved forever with this no win religious war.

There used to be a time when the US Right encouraged this.

I find it hard to believe the Left is even doing this.

Hell no. Let the Indians handle that BS.

We are pulling all of our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but wait no we aren’t. But we are cutting the size of our military forces. But we are putting a shift of the forces that we have into the Pacific. But oh, we have troops in Africa, and now Kerry wants to sent troops to Palestine. Answer me this, where does he intend to come up with all of these troops, since we are cutting the size of our forces?

Some people never seem to learn “Limited War” just means lost before its begun.

didnt the israeli defense minister just resign because the u.s. was angered that israel sold U.S. military secrets to china?? WHY ARE WE PROTECTING ISRAEL LET ALONE GIVE TH“EM MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN AID MONEY??? is this administraion that stupid? theyv’e been cahing in on our secrets for decades fk those traitors

It’s real simple, The Israelis and their All-Powerful US Lobbies OWN the US Congress.
We have the very best Congress that Money can Buy! ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Secretary of State is going to have to go before a Congressional committee and really justify this.

NO, NO and F the HELL NO. Send some other country there. Hell let Kerry go, he can do it

Kerry is going to get American Troops killed.

Not a great decision. Getting between two sides who hate each other and have been killing each other for years is not a good idea.

How can so many incompetents occupy so many government jobs? Oh that’s right, obama is shuffling ’round babbling orders

No, it was a false story. The equipment was never U.S. in origin and the equipment was sold to Europe, and someone there sold it to China. And all it was were small cooling systems for optical equipment to see pipeline leaks.

It’s the media that made a huge story out of nothing.

Freedom of religion doesn’t mean the U.S. has to support a or any religion. Americans, and especially the Pentagon, know nothing about vendetta warfare. These small wars are sucking the U.S. dry. They go on for decades and there is no winner. If the U.S. is the international policeman, why aren’t we proposing to put troops in Israel?

When I was a kid we lost Marines in Beirut when they blew up the barracks. Now I am an adult with one son in the military and another getting ready for West Point this summer. It didn’t make sense to me then to have our guys over there as “peace keepers” who really couldn’t even defend themselves when fire upon until the orders came through. I even remember something about the guards not even having ammunition in their guns, but that was 30 years ago so I might be mistaken.

It doesn’t make sense to have our military over there as “peace keepers” when one of the combatants has sworn themselves as to being our enemy. I don’t care which side of the political scene any of you are on, to hell with the politics, this is only about putting our people in a no win situation where no good can come from it. It has been this way with the Arab world for decades, we are dammed if we do and dammed if we don’t. It’s just coming down to how many of our own are we willing to sacrifice in the process of yet another disastrous middle east cluster &*^%

I recall reading a rumor that Cap Weinberger wanted to hang Pollard in front of the Pentagon, which is not only the right solution, but would have avoided this nonsense with Kerry. Oh, well .…

Isreal has been and will always be one of , if not the greatest threat to American security in history . Almost every major spy or spy ring caught in America has ties to Isreal . Pollard and those like him should have been executed. What makes him different from the Rosenbergs that were caught giving secrets about the atomic bomb ? And please , all of you out there , don‘t forget the USS Liberty !

Perfect, let Kerry come up with a harebrained idea that will undoubtedly get Americans killed and then implement it, why?!!!

You Know that if Kerry is pushing it it sucks heck Him and Hanoi Jane everyone forgets what a dud, but wifes money will make it right

can not agree more. Kerry is a idiot. may as well have Jane Fonda there with him.

Can you say Beirut?

We must cease occupying sovereign foreign countries. Let us concentrate on protecting our own boarders and citizens. WE gain absolutely nothing except profitable contracts for DOD and DOS contractors.

CWO 5 Retired

You mean the Walker, Ames, and Hanssen spy rings all spied for Israel and not for the Russian? Who knew! The Rosenbergs spied for Mother Russia too. Not Israel.

Yes, remember the USS Liberty and don’t forget about Iran Air 655 too!

Actually nothing was sold to China. It was German surplus Patriot missiles that were being sold to South Korea. The ship doing the transporting was a civilian cargo ship that happened to have a stop in China before Korea.

It was Carter that put US soldiers in the Sinai. The left just has selective memory.

Agree with your spy point but the Liberty and Iran airlines incidents have no similarities.

Joe, mt noise — interesting. Is that documented anywhere?

http://​www​.cnn​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​1​2​/​2​2​/​w​o​r​l​d​/​e​u​r​o​p​e​/​f​i​n​lan

Sounds like the Finnish inspectors saw explosives that weren’t secured correctly. As they were seizing the shipment they noticed the missiles in containers marked as ‘fireworks’. They are. Kinda.

Yes they are: both were horrible mistakes made by military units under extreme pressure. The

Kerry shows his idiocy again. This is a BAD idea. and stabbing Israel in the back is bad VERY bad for this nation. Shows again Obama is a pro Islamist president and is no leader for the nation.

Yes, everyone is stressed in combat. If that’s the case you could throw in a long list of atrocities that happen in combat. There is a fundamental difference between one missile at one plane beyond visual range and multiple attacks by multiple planes and warships on a clearly marked vessel in international waters.

Do not try and minimize the Liberty incident. It hurts your overall case. The Liberty was likely due to Moshe Dayan going rogue and ordering an attack beyond his authority and then the coverup by Israel and LBJ to minimize the damage. The failure of both nations to clear the air allows the Liberty to be and remain a point to rally anti-Israel sentiment. Attempting to rationalize that tragic incident just feeds anti-Israel sentiment.
http://​usslibertydocumentcenter​.org/​d​o​c​/​u​p​l​o​a​d​/MO

Yes and thanks but these are not the same micro coolers Israel sold to China. http://​www​.algemeiner​.com/​2​0​1​3​/​1​2​/​2​2​/​u​-​s​-​f​u​r​i​ous–
http://​www​.veteranstoday​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​1​2​/​2​3​/​b​r​e​a​k​ing–

Yeah, after Bush’s 4500+ killed in Iraq alone, Kerry and Obama have quite a bit left to reach those numbers:):) Happy new year!

UN was in Sinai/Golan. Not sure if both missions are still in place. Think the Golan one hit the news recently because of recent fighting in Syria…

Apples/oranges to me.

I’m seeing that the US soldiers were/are encouraged to sightsee both Israel and Egypt.

Hardly apples and oranges unless you don’t know the history. The MFO resulted from the US negotiating a peace between two warring groups. It’s almost exactly the same thing.

I’ve had buddies who did the Sinai mission. They had some time sightseeing at the end, otherwise it was very much an all business affair. Encouraged sightseeing was a recent development and I doubt applies to the MFO in the Sinai considering the strength of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and company. There was a firefight at North Camp last year.

blight — we still have US troops in the Sinai. http://​voices​.yahoo​.com/​a​m​e​r​i​c​a​n​-​t​r​o​o​p​s​-​m​i​d​d​l​e​-eg

Do they envision a force that patrols the West Bank east of the security barrier, which will be perceived as a very one-sided UN force…one that watches Israel build settlements and contains Palestinian rioters, but can’t do much else?

It won’t end well.

I don’t know about this one. This admin is pretty desperate for some wins, any wins, and a big foreign policy one next year would def draw some attention away from the coming healthcare storm next summer and fall., but this is pretty out there. 2014 is looking to shape up like a pretty pivotal year politically and geopolitcaly l think.

“I even remember something about the guards not even having ammunition in their guns, but that was 30 years ago so I might be mistaken.”

Your recollection is accurate.

Almost.

Egypt seems to actually have a centralized command of conventional forces, rather than a myriad of unstable/unprofessional militia groups faced in Lebanon and potentially the West Bank.

Time seems to have proven at least some Egyptians to have honored the ceasefire/chain of command, otherwise we’d have seen Islamist Extremists organize an attack with US made Abrams Tanks already (currently a thousand in Egyptian hands).

Though they have US troops and under our command, the MFO of the Sinai peninsula consists of personnel of 12 different nations.

I am not sure we even have the most troops amongst the MFO.

Compared to the 3 from Lebanon where we clearly made the majority of forces, I would consider this much more a multinational commitment rather than our own.

If the West Bank peacekeeping force were to be serious, it would be wise to follow the same steps as the MFO.

However, the geography seems much more complex.

The Book of Daniel in the Bible was written c. 539 BC. In chapter 9 verse 27 it prophecies that a special man will cause a 7-year peace treaty to be signed between Israel and many nations. Daniel also states that this will occur in the time of the end. The man who enables Israel to feel secure enough to sign this treaty must have a substantial military force behind him.

Is this man Kerry or the Potus? No, I don’t think so because Daniel says that this man will be at the head of a 10 nation confederacy and neither of them are. But the world sure is in exactly the position for that man to appear, isn’t it?

Dave
ps.I discuss this more in my blog, http://​www​.prophecy102​.com

No, the Liberty is an tragic accident that happens in wartime. It’s an open and shut case. The Americans themselves were the ones which failed to announce its presence in the area. It’s like there were never U.S. on British friendly fire incidents, etc.
http://​www​.jewishvirtuallibrary​.org/​j​s​o​u​r​c​e​/​H​i​stohttp://​www​.jewishvirtuallibrary​.org/​j​s​o​u​r​c​e​/​H​i​stohttp://​pqasb​.pqarchiver​.com/​j​p​o​s​t​/​d​o​c​/​3​1​9​5​4​1​8​5​9.h

Do not see how it is our problem. Bad enough we subsidize the existence of Israel. Having americans die to insure their security does not interest me at all.

So Afghanistan wasn’t a good choice? <sarcasm warning>

It baffles the imagination: he actually believes we can prevent anti Israeli elements from trespassing into Israel. We should be taking anti cross border encursion lessons from the Israeli’s…The volume of arrogance and retardation sifting through the administrations brand of idiotic logic realy does baffle the imagination. If there’s a lesson to be learned here it’s this: Since 1948 Israel has proven time and again that they are more then capable of mitigating issue’s when it comes to their security. On the other hand; our State Department and the United Nations has historicaly proven time and again, that they’re words and actions are about as reliable as a crack addict with your life’s savings…

Join the US military and become Israel’s bitch?

Wow! This whole idea comes straight from an insane asylum.…. Where in the hell does Our government find these types??? and then place in a position to affect our foreign policies!!!!

This is not the time or place for US Forces.

You don’t overfly a ship eight times with no concern. The MANPADS threat alone causes one to check it out. You don’t not identify flags during repeated aircraft gun runs and a surface ship attack especially when in range of cannon. Flags, the name on the ship and the unique radar domes of an intelligence ship get picked up. ANY professional soldier closely looks at an objective before attacking if nothing else to identify key weapons that should be avoided/destroyed.

Denying the obvious and prudent actions that would have been taken on the ground presents a case of excusitus or coverup. I’m pro-Israel but when people deny the obvious it makes it very hard to remain so. It does not help Israel’s case and inflames the issue.

You mean like how a radar image was clearly showing one thing on the map, yet the entire CIC staff saw something else?
http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​I​r​a​n​_​A​i​r​_​F​l​i​g​h​t​_​655

Welcome to the stress of war and overworked men.

Here is something that all skeptics have never been able to even put forward: A motive for such an attack on a U.S. ship when the war was going so well; they can’t even claim a false flag attack for a conspiracy theory.
http://​www​.jewishvirtuallibrary​.org/​j​s​o​u​r​c​e​/​H​i​sto

And you make it sound so absurd for aircraft to misidentify a ship even on repeated runs just because it has a flag. Here is a list of PT boats (of which the Japanese to my knowledge had nothing similar) attacked by friendly units despite having flags and despite the planes themselves being slower (giving more time to identification).

PT-77 sunk in error by the USS Conyngham (DD-371) and USS Lough (DE-586) near Talin Point, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 1 February 1945.

PT-79 sunk in error by the USS Conyngham (DD-371) and USS Lough (DE-586) near Talin Point, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 1 February 1945.

PT-121 destroyed by Australian aircraft, mistaken identification, Bangula Bay, New Britain, 27 March 1944.

PT-166 destroyed in error by US Army Air Force B-25 bombers, mistaken identification, off New Georgia, 20 July 1943.

PT-346 destroyed by U.S. Navy aircraft, mistaken identification, near Cape Pomas, New Britain Island, 29 April 1944.

PT-347 destroyed by U.S. Navy aircraft, mistaken identification, near Cape Pomas, New Britain Island, 29 April 1944.

PT-353 destroyed by Australian aircraft, mistaken identification, Bangula Bay, New Britain Island, 27 March 1944.
http://​www​.history​.navy​.mil/​f​a​q​s​/​f​a​q​8​2​-​1​.​h​t​m​#​a​nch
http://​upload​.wikimedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​p​e​d​i​a​/​c​o​m​m​o​n​s​/​4/4

I used to say that all we needed to make peace in the Middle East was to station the 2d Armored Division on the West Bank…of course, now, that division does not exist anymore. I stopped thinking like this when the Oslo Accords came in. We do need to ask, “Just who are we protecting from whom”.

In any case, the terrorists will come after us with both barrels blazing. Not that I mind, to tell the truth. I do consider the Jordanians enough of a friend to expect their help on this. The Palestinians you can have.

It only matters, bottom line, that the US needs Israel in place.

Keep grasping Joe.

The Vincennes shoot down was seven minutes from beginning to end where the US ship repeatedly tried to contact the civilian airliner. The Israelis strafed and attacked the Liberty for almost half an hour after flying over it and even positively identifying it beforehand. They never tried to contact the ship they were busy killing Americans on.

Read the link I provided above for the reason behind the Israeli attack on the motivation.

PT boats are warships with easily identified weapon systems unlike the intel ship USS Liberty. PTs are 75′ long the Liberty was almost 500′. The flag on a PT boat is a postage stamp compared to the full size and then even larger garrison sized flag flown on the Liberty. http://​www​.mccullagh​.org/​i​m​a​g​e​/​1​0​d​-​1​5​/​u​s​s​-​l​i​b​e​rty

Keep making excuses. You’re doing your cause wonders…

“Cause”…?

The first aircraft “strike package” attack lasted 3 minutes.

Then they left the area. Then next “strike package” didn’t arrive for something like 45 minutes.

And the PT Boats presented a completely unique identification silhouette vs. the Liberty. Yet they were attacked by boats and planes from not only a single branch, but even several nationalities.

The “motive” your link listed is downright retarded. First starting with the “no threat”, I’m sure the Syrian’s raining down shells on the villages below for decades were “no threat”, and then starting up with the “conspiracy” theory.

“But it is no longer necessary to decide the argument on the basis of common sense alone. Like the other claims for Israel’s alleged motive in attacking the Liberty, the one linking the assault to the Golan Heights campaign cannot withstand the scrutiny of the newly declassified documents. These confirm that Israel made no attempt to hide its preparations for an offensive against Syria, and that the United States government, relying on regular diplomatic channels, remained fully apprised of them. Thus, on June 8, the American consulate in Jerusalem reported that Israel was retaliating for Syria’s bombardment of Israeli villages “in an apparent prelude to large-scale attack in effort to seize Heights overlooking border kibbutzim.” That same day, U.S. Ambassador Walworth Barbour in Tel Aviv reported that “I would not, repeat not, be surprised if the reported Israeli attack [on the Golan] does take place or has already done so,” and IDF Intelligence Chief Aharon Yariv told Harry McPherson, a senior White House aide who was visiting Israel at the time, that “there still remained the Syria problem and perhaps it would be necessary to give Syria a blow.“48

Similarly, the United States National Archives contain no evidence to suggest that information obtained by the Liberty augmented Washington’s already detailed picture of events on the Golan front and of Israel’s intentions there. The Israeli records, for their part, reveal no fear whatsoever of American opposition to punishing Syria, but only of possible Soviet military intervention. (It was this fear that led Israel to delay its decision to capture the Golan until the morning of June 9.) Nor do they suggest that there was any danger of an American ultimatum. On the contrary, from his conversations with presidential advisor McGeorge Bundy and other administration officials, Foreign Minister Abba Eban understood that “official Washington would not be too aggrieved if Syria suffered some painful effects from the war that it had started.…“49

Once again, there is no indication in the archives that the Israelis were troubled by the Liberty, much less considered it worthy of attack. Indeed, there is no evidence that anyone in the Israeli government, or the IDF Chief of Staff, knew of the ship’s presence at all.50

But the case remained open nonetheless. While the controversy surrounding similar incidents would subside — the Iraqi missile attack on the USS Stark in 1987 and the downing of an Iranian jetliner by the USS Vincennes in 1988 come to mind — the bitterness over the Liberty incident endured. The release of hitherto classified papers on the incident, however, now enables us to dispel spurious theories about the incident, and to conclude that Israel’s assault upon the USS Liberty was a tragic error, and nothing more. In light of the new documents, it is now possible to reconstruct the chain of mishaps on the part of both sides that led to the unintended Israeli attack.

The incident began with the ill-conceived decision to send the Liberty to the crisis-torn Middle East, a mere half-mile beyond Egyptian waters, in an area not used by commercial shipping and which Nasser had declared off-limits to neutral vessels. The Americans did not accede to Chief of Staff Rabin’s request for the identification of all U.S. ships in the area or Ambassador Harman’s request for a strategic liaison between Israel and the Sixth Fleet. The Liberty’s dispatchers, meanwhile, overrode naval orders to keep the ship in Spain, and then failed to inform the U.S. attaché in Tel Aviv of its presence near the war zone. These mistakes were compounded by the navy’s communications system, which delayed by as much as two days orders to the Liberty to withdraw 100 miles from the coast.52 Even after it was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60–100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither Castle, nor cinceur, nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it.

The Israelis, too, committed their own share of fateful errors, as the Yerushalmi report points out: The erroneous reports of bombardment at El-Arish, the failure to replace the Liberty’s marker on the board after it had been cleared, the over-eagerness of naval commanders, and worst of all, Ensign Yifrah’s miscalculation of the ship’s speed. Though Yerushalmi’s report suggested reasons for these errors — inflexible naval procedures, the inaccuracy of speed-measuring devices — one is still left with a sense of poor organization and sloppy execution. Moreover, there were breakdowns in communications between the Israeli navy and air force stemming from inadequate command structure and the immense pressures of a multi-front war. To these factors must be added Israel’s general sensitivity about its coastal defenses, and the exhaustion of its pilots after four days of uninterrupted combat. Yet none of these amount to the kind of gross negligence of which the Israelis have been accused.

All of these elements combined to create a tragic “friendly fire” incident of the kind that claimed the lives of at least fifty Israeli soldiers in the Six Day War, and caused 5,373 American casualties in Vietnam in 1967 alone.53 Obviously, these findings can do little to lessen the suffering of those American servicemen who were wounded in the incident, nor can they be expected to offer comfort to the families of the dead. But they should at least permit us to bring to a close what has for a generation remained one of the most painful chapters in the history of America’s relationship with the State of Israel.
http://​www​.jewishvirtuallibrary​.org/​j​s​o​u​r​c​e​/​H​i​sto

Joe you’re ignoring the facts while making excuses.

By your own admission the Liberty attack went on much longer than happened with the Vincennes shooting down a civilian air liner. They are no where near the same.

It wasn’t ISRAEL that decided to attack the Liberty. It was Dayan. The SAME guy who went much farther into the Golan than was directed by Israel’s gov’t. Dayan did not want the US to interfere with the Israeli seizure of the Golan. Previous US pressure has obstructed Israeli goals before. It’s not retarded it’s Israeli SOP. Better to ask forgiveness than permission. I understand it and don’t condemn it. No nation should have to get another’s permission on issues of national security.

There is a long history of air to ground fratricide. Few are instances of repeated air AND naval attack on friendly forces Few ground units fly normal 3’x5’ US flags let alone super large US flags used for national holidays. On the ground, casualties are usually the greatest because of the effectiveness of a large bomb on the ground vs the mitigating effect water has on near bomb misses on a naval target. The majority of deaths on the Liberty (25) were due to a surface craft torpedo attack.

Neither side wants to raise the issue again for its own reasons. Heck, twice US aircraft were put into the air to help a US ship in distress and both times they were called back. Those decisions by LBJ and McNamara are also beyond the pale. The numerous excuses that the repeated aerial and naval attacks on the USS Liberty attack weren’t a mistake don’t help Israel.

I’m not trying to convince you. Your mind is made up. Your repeated petitioning for the US to buy Israeli vehicles, remote weapons stations and missiles demonstrates a loyalty to Israel beyond one’s loyalty to the US fighting man. In that light, your analysis of the Liberty is predictable.

As Hillary would say,” What difference does it make” that Kerry wants to endanger our troops in another volatile area of the world.He’s the one that was crying to end the United States involvement in Vietnam.He’s as leftist as can be.

No such loyalty, just common sense and facts. Again, there is the lack of clear motive for such an attack. Furthermore, your “MANPAD” threat is nonsense, Egypt didn’t have any MANPADS at the time.

Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.4 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a “case of mistaken identity.” Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.

Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. Tapes of the radio transmissions made prior, during and after the attack do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack. During the attack, a pilot specifically says, “there is no flag on her!” The recordings also indicate that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack and they were given an order to leave the area. A transcript of the radio transmissions indicates the entire incident, beginning with the spotting of a mysterious vessel off El Arish and ending with the chief air controller at general headquarters in Tel Aviv telling another controller the ship was “apparently American” took 24 minutes.5 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version.

A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the “Egyptian warship” that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. “Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian,” the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel.6

In October 2003, the first Israeli pilot to reach the ship broke his 36-year silence on the attack. Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector, a triple ace, who shot down 15 enemy aircraft and took part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, said he had been told an Egyptian ship was off the Gaza coast. “This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck. This was not there, so it wasn’t one of ours.” The Jerusalem Post obtained a recording of Spector’s radio transmission in which he said, “I can’t identify it, but in any case it’s a military ship.”7

Spector’s plane was not armed with bombs or, he said, he would have sunk the Liberty. Instead he fired 30mm armor piercing rounds that led the American survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. His first pass ignited a fire, which caused the ship to billow black smoke that Spector thought was a ruse to conceal the ship. Spector acknowledged in the Post interview that he made a mistake, and said he admitted it when called to testify in an inquiry by a U.S. senator. “I’m sorry for the mistake,” he said. “Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked.”

None of Israel’s accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel’s only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles — the last four said 100 miles — off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation.

Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns.8

Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): “No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn’t know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles.”

Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: “It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional.”

In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the “Larry King Show” that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no “cover­up.”9

In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated June 13 and June 21, 1967, that say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence “strongly suggested” Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.10

The new documents do not shed any light on the mystery of what the ship was doing in the area or why Israel was not informed about its presence. The evidence suggests the ship was not spying on Israel.

But it is no longer necessary to decide the argument on the basis of common sense alone. Like the other claims for Israel’s alleged motive in attacking the Liberty, the one linking the assault to the Golan Heights campaign cannot withstand the scrutiny of the newly declassified documents. These confirm that Israel made no attempt to hide its preparations for an offensive against Syria, and that the United States government, relying on regular diplomatic channels, remained fully apprised of them. Thus, on June 8, the American consulate in Jerusalem reported that Israel was retaliating for Syria’s bombardment of Israeli villages “in an apparent prelude to large-scale attack in effort to seize Heights overlooking border kibbutzim.” That same day, U.S. Ambassador Walworth Barbour in Tel Aviv reported that “I would not, repeat not, be surprised if the reported Israeli attack [on the Golan] does take place or has already done so,” and IDF Intelligence Chief Aharon Yariv told Harry McPherson, a senior White House aide who was visiting Israel at the time, that “there still remained the Syria problem and perhaps it would be necessary to give Syria a blow.“48

Similarly, the United States National Archives contain no evidence to suggest that information obtained by the Liberty augmented Washington’s already detailed picture of events on the Golan front and of Israel’s intentions there. The Israeli records, for their part, reveal no fear whatsoever of American opposition to punishing Syria, but only of possible Soviet military intervention. (It was this fear that led Israel to delay its decision to capture the Golan until the morning of June 9.) Nor do they suggest that there was any danger of an American ultimatum. On the contrary, from his conversations with presidential advisor McGeorge Bundy and other administration officials, Foreign Minister Abba Eban understood that “official Washington would not be too aggrieved if Syria suffered some painful effects from the war that it had started.…“49

Once again, there is no indication in the archives that the Israelis were troubled by the Liberty, much less considered it worthy of attack. Indeed, there is no evidence that anyone in the Israeli government, or the IDF Chief of Staff, knew of the ship’s presence at all.50

Here, read this for some facts:
http://​blogs​.timesofisrael​.com/​t​h​e​-​l​i​e​-​t​h​a​t​-​w​ont–

Its an awful lot of writing & posts Joe for such a “clear” case of “mistaken identity”. No your mind isn’t made up.

I guess the Americans are lying about the 3’x5’ flag that was replaced with the larger 9’x13’ flag after the first was shot down.

The Israelis also claimed the Liberty was moving at 30 knots as evidence that it was a warship. max speed was 17.5 knots.

It’s ridiculous to assume you are going to find any evidence except that which supports the narrative. The release of info events you speak of are canned events. There are NUMEROUS high ranking Americans that hold the opposite position. Some, like the apologists are nuts, others quite reliable. The reality remains a US ship was repeatedly attacked while flying a US flag in international waters. No explanation justifies why the US failed to defend it and there is plenty of evidence to question why four planes and three Israeli warships made repeated attacks on a US Navy vessel for well over a half hour.

Continue to excuse it. It does wonders for your objectivity. The damage to Israel grows and while I’m an Israel supporter it’s efforts like yours that make it hard to maintain that position.

I’m sorry but Kerry looks like that scientists assistant muppet. He kind of acts like him, too.

Seriously though, this is yet another bad idea on so many levels. Give credit to this administration for trying a different approach, but most anyone can see this is one of the worst of any solution we can present.

Yet more blood and treasure for what? These people hate each other with a passion. Lebanon schools teach this hatred starting in elementary school. You cannot fix that with a pointed gun.

The last thing the US needs is to ground more troops in an area we don’t need to be in.

Again, you fail to provide any concrete evidence or motive that it was purposeful attack. Over 45 years have passed and not a single shred of concrete evidence has ever surfaced to make it other than a tragic accident. There was smoke from the ship as well as it firing on the boats after the boats tried to identify it again. Just read the facts about what happened, and then show any CONCRETE evidence, and motive, that it was anything but a series of tragic events in the middle of a war.

The. Perfect people to go the sons and daughters of our congress and our senators. Let them put there lives on the line, it’/s peace keeping mission

Here, let’s play a little game so you can see how absurd this whole conspiracy theory sounds. From now on, instead of saying “Israel”, say “Australia”. Now repeat everything you said in your conspiracy theory and see how ludicrous it sounds.

(e.g., It was two Australian jets that strafed the Liberty).

Nevermind this childish bullshit “look what he did” and if you’re a “concerned European” concern yourself with EUROPE. Neither Kerry nor Obama will lose a family member in this, if they’re so committed let them serve, let their children serve, we’ve lost enough of our children for the endless “PAX AMERICANA”

Damn right. Let them pound each others asses to grass.

You do realize Palestine and Israel are almost synonymous?

Yeah, let’s insert the Aussies a continent away. That’s as sensible as comparing the Vincennes incident to this attack. Oh wait, you did that also. Yeah, I’m the ludicrous one…

As for concrete evidence there’s a plethora of it. You just choose to interpret it differently and ignore any common sense evaluation to an attack that consisted of multiple combatants ALL of which couldn’t see a flag…

There’s no concrete evidence that Israel is killing Iranian nuclear scientists or bombing Syrian ammo transfers to Hezbollah. I guess those scientists aren’t dead and those ammo transfers never existed…

How the hell isn’t the Vincennes incident relevant!? There the engagement lasted under calmer conditions for longer with accurate information being shown; just not registered by the entire CIC.

“Then something happened that psychologists call “scenario fulfillment” — you see what you expect. Petty Officers Anderson and Leach both began singing out that the aircraft, now definitively tagged on the big screen as an F-14, was descending and picking up speed. The tapes of the CIC’s data later showed no such thing. Anderson’s screen showed that the plane was travelling 380 knots at 12,000 feet and climbing. Yet Anderson was shouting out that the speed was 455 knots, the altitude 7,800 feet and descending.”

But I guess when it’s America’s boys that make a mistake, then that’s different. But because it was the Israeli’s, then holy cow it must have been on purpose for some unfathomable reason that doesn’t even make the slightest sense.

You’re entire argument revolves around a godamn flag on a calm day on a ship doing 5 knots being identified by exhausted and tense pilots zooming by several kilometers away at hundreds of MPH. That’s unfathomable to you. Yet the fact that an entire CIC in the comfort of their own chairs and with nice huge computer screens reading them out precise information could also fail to see the facts during a far longer engagement period is fine by you because.…?

Why is it when the Left doesn’t want to support Israel they’re “Anti-Semitic,” but when the Right does the same thing they’re “Patriotic?”

Didn’t realize you were in the CIC of the Vincennes… Again, the numbers involved and duration of the incident are quite dissimilar. The Iranian airplane was in the air 7 a total of 7 min. and had two missiles fired at it from 11 miles well beyond visual range The USS Liberty was off the Israeli coast for days and was repeatedly attacked at close range by seven Israeli planes and ships for well over a half hour period.

There’s more to my case than TWO flags. There are the identification procedures every officer makes before engaging let alone the men under his command or are Israeli servicemen automatons? Four planes, three ships, that’s at least seven officers with eyes on and then there are the crews and the previous identification that the Liberty was in the area and a US ship or does Israel overfly ships in the middle of a war without reporting back to their HQ’s who is in the area? Funny, none of those visual sightings except for one rrant one saying the Liberty was a destroyer have been revealed?…

Quite a bit more than a flag but since you mentioned it, Admiral Martin 6th Fleet HQ said when asked to provide a destroyer escort said, “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation. Request denied.”.

blight: Sinai MFO is the military forces ur ref., not UN. Its hq’d in Rome. It was never approved by the UN which did not sanction the “Camp David Accords” betix the US, Israel & Egyptians in ’79. Gen. Al-Sisi’s boys are conducting large scale offensive opns in the Sinai to flush out the MB & Salalfists as we speak. We ain’t got no b’ness being in the West Bank of Palistine (sp?) anyway w/US troops with their backs up againts that wall the Israeli’s built (2 protect THEIR settlements!) & the collection of crazies (Hezbollah, aI-Nusra, etc) facing them so we can shore up Jordan which is ready to destabilize due 2 the 500K+ Syrian refugee’s living in their country, that’s the REAL reason! If SECSTATE releases Pollard, its a payoff to AIPAC 4 support 4 the mid-term elections! This plan is MADNESS!

The marine guards had clips w 3 rds each w/tape over the top for “safety” purposes & the Iranian backed militia which morphed into Hezbollah hit the barracks with a 1000lb+ thermobaric explosive device! Not 2 mention our CIA station chief begin kidnapped & hung on video 4 the world to see…& everyones homework assignment is who was the man who was behind these acts, (plus the bombing of the french paratroopers as well?) hint: Irans’ present defense minister.…so much for POTUS Obama’s “Diplomacy Only” solution for Irans’ nuclear ambitions

As far as I am concerned, if God gave the land to the Jews, let Him guard it.

Seems like Israel is trusting more in us and their nukes than in Yahweh. We’ve come a long way since the book of Judges.…

You would have to kill everyone to kill hatred. Including all the haters on your side.

America is broke and it wants to play empire? Sorry, game over.

We will draft your kids. Maybe even draft you too.

Bay-Root?

Beirut, Lebanon October 23, 1983 all over again? U.S. troops will be sitting ducks.

Wow, is that true that Israel sold US secrets to Soviet Union? Then secrets leaked to China? How much is a friendship worth? And we send monetary considerations in the amount of $10,000,000,000 a year, for what? And that figure is about 10 to 15 years old. Troops, we have 27,000+ troops in South Korea simply because there is no peace treaty with North Korea due to the fact that Kim’s father and Kim himself act like 5 year olds. How many years has this been going on, since maybe 1954? Are there any adults in Palestine or Israel? Will US troops be stuck there for 60+ years? Who is going to pay for this PEACE? US taxpayer? Hey I thought the US was financially broke. I’m confused.…Hey I’m all for PEACE on EARTH, we need to grow up, and let Israel and Palestine work it out, it’s their back yard.

“All it was were small cooling systems” — such as those used in missiles. I suggest you read the story about it on this web site. In addition, this isn’t the first time that the Israelis have sold US technology to China. They were even going to build them an AWACS plane. The Israelis don’t see the Chinese as a threat to them, so they don’t really care about helping increase their capabilities, regardless of the impact on the U.S.

Well I for one prefer a thriving Israel from where many valuable to humanity inventions are born. What of any value is coming out of the Muslim states…unless you consider terrorism and rubble as being valuable.

What “settlements”? They are just homes, like the one you live in.

Jordanians are the same people as the “Palestinians.” They are Arabs, speak the same language and have the same history. The only different group is the Beduins.

Obama is doing quite a job all on his own in Afghanistan. Especially for someone who ran “against the war.” Not to mention the drone strikes. Wake up!

That would be even more monumentally stupid than sending US troops into Beirut. Back then is was to whisk Arafat away from the Israelis (an incredibly stupid move) THEN they were supposed to remain in country whilst appearing to be neutral amongst the Israelis and countless Lebanese factions (aside from the “official” Lebanese government and army). In this case the US would be seen as protecting Israel directly. Given how unpopular the botched war on terror has made the US, those troops would be sitting ducks.

All the more reason for Israel to really give it to Iran and the enemies surrounding Israel. Get real mad.
Go for it Israel.

“just homes” my horses @rse!” I didn’t bulldoze a Palestian(SP?) house(s) to make mine, did u do that 2 build yours? On land you stole from Jordan during the 6 day war?

Like what U.S. technology has Israel ever sold China? Please use peer-reviewed sources.

That AWACS was based on Israeli radar technology and the private Israeli company lost a lot of money by not going through on that deal.

Kerry is the past recipient of multiple Dunning-Kruger Effect awards. With this nutty idea, he tries to get another one.

Wrong facts in the story, here is the real one:
http://​www​.defensenews​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​/​2​0​1​4​0​1​0​3​/​D​E​FRE

The cooler was just sold to a French firm for use in their equipment; it was the French that sold the electro-optical equipment to China.

Contrary to what you said the coolers are also applicable for use in air to air missiles. They allow for greater sensitivity to heat for the warheads and subsequently better guidance. These Israeli made coolers were derived from US technology. It’s not a small thing though apologists will never admit Israel does anything wrong…

Chris, I am afraid that you will go looonnngg before I go, since I have been there and done that a long time ago.

Actually, they weren’t. Rico is an Israel company which since 1967 have produced such parts. In fact, the NASA rover to Mars used a Rico cooler, not a U.S. one. The U.S. didn’t invent everything you know.

In any case, it was the French that transferred the equipment to China; blame your NATO ally.

*Ricor

Well now the Pope’s on his way there, this may significantly complicate things.

LOL, it’s breathtaking what levels you’ll go to to excuse Israeli misbehavior.

Yes the US didn’t invent everything and Israel has improved a lot of US tech but the small coolers being discussed here were designed with US tech which is why the US was involved in the investigation as stated in even the article YOU suggested…

Really, where in the article did it say that?

In fact, show me from where the hell you are bringing this claim that those coolers are based at all on U.S. technology.

“the US was involved in the investigation as stated in even the article YOU suggested… “? The article uses words like “after a joint US-Israeli investigation” English is not that difficult.

“where the hell you are bringing this claim that those coolers are based at all on U.S. technology.”?

Uh, here’s hell…
“The recent “responsive space” trend called for developing mini, micro and even nano-satellites for budget constrained missions and has prompted attempts to find a middle ground between the leading-edge tactical cryogenic coolers and traditional space coolers to optimally meet space requirements with a particular emphasis on low cost. These ideas were pioneered by Raytheon stepping forward with the concept of a compact, lightweight and cost saving space
cryocooler. For the Raytheon approach described in [4,8], the “traditional” processor-intensive approach to the design of control/drive electronics has been abandoned in favor of radiation hardening of existing high reliability tactical electronics designs. This merging of space and tactical refrigeration technologies, heretofore seen as completely distinct, was novel. The above efforts resulted in a space cryocooler architecture that is projected to yield a 10-fold decrease in price for typical small lot builds (3 to 5 cryocooler systems).” http://​www​.ricor​.com/​w​p​-​c​o​n​t​e​n​t​/​u​p​l​o​a​d​s​/​f​i​l​e​/​Low%

Note it’s a Ricor document.

Google is your friend…

YOU GOT THATN ONE RIGHT

As far as Jordan goes, the Bedouins were there first, and have always been the most reliable supporters of the Hashemite monarchy. Since Jordan has relinquished all claims to the West Bank, that leaves Arabs of Palestinian descent high and dry as far as returning there is concerned. Yes, they could conceivably return there once a comprehensive peace accord is signed. Would they even want to, at this point ? Jordan, at least, is a comparatively stable, well-run nation with some semblance of political and human rights.

But is it truly peace if it is enforced under threat of arms?
Putting US troops in harm’s way to ~defend~ and uphold security in an area that has seen armed conflict since the day those nations’ ancestors first set foot into those territories seems awfully contradictory agenda for a Democratic Party who so vehemently opposed the “Bush Doctrine” that sought the same notions of stability in Iraq.

It is only an illusion of peace when an even bigger adversary sets foot in the territory and, effectively, threatens the current inhabitants with even more violence and warfare if the locals don’t learn to play nice.
There is nothing Christ-like nor of Christian value to enforce peace under threat of an even bigger sword.
Oh wait, that IS Christianity at its finest:
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.“
(KGV, Matthew 10:34)

Effectively: “Learn to play nice together, and stop killing each other over your own man-made squabbles and man-made rules and laws, or I will kill ALL of you in the name of My Rules and My Laws.”

People often forget, when quoting biblical scripture, that Christ wasn’t all peace, love, and forgiveness.

I agree with you d. kellog, it’s not true peace.

But the “special man” that I’m referring to isn’t Jesus — the Bible describes this special man, who Daniel prophesied about, as charismatic and an irresistible force. He will come to power relatively quickly and he will enable the signing of this 7-year peace treaty between Israel and many nations.

However, once he has gained complete power of the 10-nation confederacy that he leads, his true nature will be revealed. Daniel, and other prophets in the Bible, say that he will break the treaty after 3 1/2 years and declare himself to be God. The Bible calls him the “man of sin”.

He will, in essence, do exactly what the Potus and Kerry are attempting — somehow put together an agreement that will convince the Israelis that they are secure and no longer have to fear attack from outside.

Dave

And as such, this “promised man” leading a false peace should only hope he can account for every conceivable unseen variable…7 billion humans, a majority of whom believe they’re decent folk and would do the right thing, yet how often in the news do we see people who we thought were everyday average folks, but are pushed far beyond their breaking point, they snap, and drastic things happen?

I for one would love to see what kind of ~miracles~ said false saviour thinks he can perform that will sufficiently blind enough people of the world into believing he’s some kind of divine prophecy incarnate.
7 billion humans: I doubt anyone mortal-born would be so foolish to think they are immune to even the unlikely unseen variables.
Fear not a man who has everything to lose. Fear the man whom has nothing left to lose.

You’re quite perceptive d.kellogg. You’re absolutely right on — the man of sin doesn’t foresee every unseen variable. But he has a few very important factors that will be going his way;

1 — From the beginning of time, the circumstances of this leader’s arrival have been known by God and his rise to power is inevitable.

2 — He will either take advantage of, or cause to happen himself, a great delusion that will overcome just about every person living on earth. The Bible describes this event as follows;

“The coming of the lawless one (aka man of sin) is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, .… For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.”

What the nature of this delusion will be, nobody knows for sure.

3 — The man of sin will have a remarkable ally — the Bible calls him The False Prophet. He will be an evil religious leader who is given certain miraculous powers, such as the ability to perform signs that will convince the leaders of the nations and all the people of the world to do the bidding of the man of sin.

Your last statement is very apropos — I think that this super leader may well be aware that his time of power is limited to 7 years. But whether or not he really thinks that he will ultimately lose is a question that the Bible doesn’t answer. Perhaps he will sincerely believe that he will be able to defeat God in the end?

Dave
ps. I have a guess about a possible candidate for the man of sin position. There are a couple of articles about him in my blog, http://​www​.prophecy102​.com. At the moment he is calling himself, The Maitreya.

The force should be combined IDF/GCC. Not America’s war.

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