Bible Verse, Not Cuts, Draws Lawmakers’ Ire

Bible Verse, Not Cuts, Draws Lawmakers’ Ire

Some U.S. congressmen seemed more upset about a recent incident involving a bible verse at the Air Force Academy than the service’s plans to scrap entire fleets of aircraft due to budget cuts.

Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James and Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh defended the service’s budget request for fiscal 2015, which begins Oct. 1, during a hearing last week of the House Armed Services Committee.

The spending plan calls for eliminating the entire fleets of A-10 gunships and U-2 spy planes, and reducing the inventory of F-15 and F-16 fighter jets, as well as MQ-1 Predator drones, in part to cope with automatic budget cuts known as sequestration.

Yet some lawmakers wanted to hear less about the service’s budget plans and more about how a cadet at the academy was recently forced to take down a bible verse he had posted on a whiteboard in the hallway outside his room. The passage read, “I have been crucified with Christ therefore I no longer live, but Christ lives in me,” and drew complaints from other cadets, faculty and staff.

Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., said the incident was of “major concern” to him. “This cadet had no intention to offend anyone or any group,” he said. “How is that offensive to leadership principles?”

After he went back and forth with James on the facts surrounding the case, Forbes said, “I hope you guys will come back to us on this and, for once, the Air Force start standing up for these cadets and their rights instead of just constantly saying, ‘If anybody at all opposes it, we’re going to make them take these things down.’”

Welsh, the former commandant of the academy, said messages are routinely taken down from the boards to ensure compliance with existing policy, which seeks to balance an individual’s right to expression with the military’s need for order and discipline.

Other panel members such as Rep. Vicky Hartzler, R-Mo., did voice concerns over the service’s plans to retire the A-10 Thunderbolt II, known as the Warthog, in favor of precision-strike aircraft.

Hartzler, whose district includes Whiteman Air Force Base, which houses a Reserve fighter squadron of A-10s, said the gunship is the “most effective and cost efficient platform that we have for close air support.” She noted the cost per flying hour of the A-10 is about $17,000, compared with about $22,000 for the F-22 and $54,000 for the B-1.

But in general, the panel’s response to proposed cuts was relatively muted, leaving open the question of whether Congress will act to restore the fleets or undo sequestration in fiscal 2016 and beyond.

If lawmakers leave the reductions in place, the Air Force would have to retire 80 more aircraft, including the KC-10 refueling tanker, in addition to the almost 500 craft already slated for elimination; defer upgrades to the Global Hawk and retire the Block 40 version of the drone; curb the number of patrols of Predator and Reaper drones; and cancel such programs as the Combat Rescue Helicopter and the next-generation jet engine, James said.

“It’s not a good deal for us,” she said. “It’s not a good deal for the country.”

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How, “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” has been changed into the federal government deciding who has what rights and when or where is absolutely beyond any reasonable thought process.

Indeed. Next thing you know, they will ban non-Christians from the military because it disrupts “unit cohesiveness”.

“Assaults on non-Christians is at an all-time high in the military, with punishments limited to Article 15 and NJP…”

lack of guidance is to blame, the head of the academy is not doing his job in controlling the profitizing teachers/students, every should be free of religion.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

In other words, put the whiteboard inside the Cadet’s room if the Cadet is looking to be exalted.

What the hell is “profitizing”?

“Assaults on non-Christians is at an all-time high in the military, with punishments limited to Article 15 and NJP…”

What is your source for this and what do you construe as “assault”?

“Some U.S. congressmen seemed more upset about a recent incident involving a bible verse at the Air Force Academy than the service’s plans to scrap entire fleets of aircraft due to budget cuts.“_____________________________________Thats because congress is the ones that imposed the budget cuts, they don’t care what the Air Force cut.

Well to be “fair” the budget cuts belong to everyone, including Congress, the President and the Pentagon. Too many hands in the pot to really do anything about it for now and everyone knows the suck is coming, it’s just a matter of what type. The infringement of Air Force Cadet’s First Amendment rights are lower hanging fruit and therefore, easier to change policy wise. I don’t think it denotes an actual priority in policy as the article tries to make it out to be.

They are pulling the same old political smoke screen, stirring up an argument to obfuscate scrutiny elsewhere, to steer discussion and debate away from something. It is easy to get people arguing about matters pertaining to religion and religious expression, or gun control issues, or abortion issues, or gay rights issues, etc.

Thank you.

Sounds like a class taught by Lockheed and Boeing.

blight, you have lost it. Christians in the military are actually the ones getting more of the focus placed on them to reserve their religious expressions. Meanwhile, other religions are being allowed to wear religious head wear in uniform and even grow beards: http://​www​.npr​.org/​b​l​o​g​s​/​t​h​e​t​w​o​-​w​a​y​/​2​0​1​4​/​0​1​/​2​3​/26

The way I see it, what happened to this Air Force cadet was wrong.

Working with government 101.

“Tip the cow, run away laughing”

What ten-cent journalism school did the author of this article go to? Conflating budget– and obsolescence-driven force reductions and controversy over the actions of an USAFA cadet is pretty piss-poor logic (and writing).

No. It’s not. The active harassment and oppression of non Christians at the USAF Academy has been scrupulously and copiously documented. The Academy had been hijacked by a cadre of whack jobs. Even today, there is pressure to “Christianize.” Keep your religion–whatever it is– to yourself.

The problem started with Christians in positions of authority evaluating and promoting USAF personnel on their Christianity, rather than how well they performed their jobs. In fact, non-Christians were actively discriminated against and denied promotion based on their status as non-believers. This disgusting state of affairs is not only antithetical to the Constitution and thoroughly immoral, it has horrific impacts on readiness.

Here’s the bottom line: Worship as you see fit. But keep it out of the professional workplace. ESPECIALLY the US Military.

Ahhh Grasshopper, in the new PC military, Christians are not allowed to worship as they see fit, and it seems to be coming from DoD level and higher. There is ample, public and factual documentation of command discrimination against Christians. Where is this so-called discrimination against non-Christians, especially non-Christians that belong to a recognized religion and not a cult.

In today’s anti-christian military the cadet wasn’t looking to be “exalted” by claiming he was a christian.

It’s telling that someone can say they are gay and they are a protected class but a christian has to hide it…

Let’s assume you are right and have evidence to support your allegations, since when do two wrongs make a right?

“Assaults on non-Christians is at an all-time high in the military, with punishments limited to Article 15 and NJP…”


I being a former Vietnam and Air Force member are ashamed of todays leadership at the Academy. USAFA was once the proud and shinning example of the best our country had to offer. If this is what they are focued on today instead of the core values that are country and USAF were built on, then there will eventually be no veterans and no democracy and without that, there will be NO AMERICA. Way to go Commandant and Gen Welsh!

My how times have changed. In the 60s, we had gays in the military and did not care as long as they did their job like every one else. We had people of all religions, and they were our friends and buddies. We even went to services with them on occasion, because in the field that one chaplain covered all faiths also. How have the services got so dis-unified in the last 50 years? I am a Catholic, and am proud to say that I served wit Christians, Jews, Mormons, Amish, and others. We fought as one.

I’m sure several dozen bloodsucking lawyers would be on the case if this cadet was gay or of some other religion and told to take down a related quote.

The protected classes must not be “offended” by the sight of anything they don’t like, even if that means stomping on the constitutional rights of the majority of American citizens. Such is the doctrine of cult of political correctness.

Amen I say to mrlee comments! I also ask you to stop and ask, what right do we have to Judge? Get back to our CORE Values and become great and in that never fall asleep!

Now that’s the down to earth flipping truth!! The new world order . Our county is being torn down and weaken by the very people who bleed it to feed their own greed.the self righteous & self proclaimed . Don’t you understand this! That is & was the plan all along. I feel for the people and I weep for our children & I see our soldiers used as objects to be moved around as pawns. Say what you will . While the righteous feed on it’s people like vampires .

Heck, we don’t need attack aircraft, fighting ships, or ground troops. If we want to make a statement or a change in the world all we have to do is have Obama sanction a dozen or so people and all will be well and the world will tremble before us.

I’d tend to agree that religious expression should be muted in the military — but not eliminated. In this case, however, the posted sign was right outside his room and was arguably in a living space rather than a work space.

And if you believe that keeping one’s worship out of the military work space is the way it should be — then the idea of wearing religious headgear in uniform should horrify you.

I suppose you would prefer religious expressions — primarily christian — all over the campus.

B.S. — total.

Did some mean ol’ Christian put a bible verse on your bulletin board? The fact is, the US Constitution is what it is. If you want to change it, then there are provisions for that in the Constitution, none of which involve the Supreme Court in any way, shape, or form. The way the Constitution is written, the federal government has no say in religious matters. That means, you don’t have to like Christians and they don’t have to like you. Now I’m not advocating that anyone should not like anyone else, but certainly there is no legal room for the federal government to rule one way or another given the law of the land as it stands today.

So where do you draw the line? Is any old “graffitti” allowed on common area whiteboards in the interest of freedom of speech? What if this were a basic training barracks, some trainee wrote this and a drill sergeant told him to get rid of it in the interest of maintaining a “strac” appearance in the barracks?

So — the guy posted a verse about getting crucified with Christ and — they crucified him ?

What would they have done if he’d posted the verse about putting on the whole armor of God ? Given him a flak vest ?

In the old days we also drank and smoke and cursed and chased women and ne’er strayed to the chapel. It wasn’t until I took off the uniform that I realized how much I had missed all those years, and how time had passed me by.

Great question. Perhaps Americans are just getting nasty and brutish.

Then again, a wartime military usually has bigger fish to fry than factional infighting. The specter of 100 Soviet motor rifle divisions just over the line in East Germany is very…motivating.

It is in human nature to divide, to split and to fight.

The statement in the article, “existing policy, which seeks to balance an individual’s right to expression with the military’s need for order and discipline,” is a BS answer. All this really means is that the Air Force is willing to trample the First Amendment rights of Christians in favor of a few who claim to be offended by the cross, Jesus, or anything from the Bible. The policy is unconstitutional and illegal. This also means we have airman that are so weak that they can’t get past a Bible verse or some other religious thing they disagree with. Give us a break. What ever happened to, “I may not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend your right to say it?” I’m a citizen of the United States, a taxpayer, and LTC U.S. Army Retired. If this is the kind of airman we’re raising out of the academy –God help us! This is a leadership problem and the Air Force leadership needs to step up.

So when a Jew or a buddhist does the same thing will you have the same response? Heaven forbid it if a Muslim decides to post something on the Bulletin board. How fast will that get torn down? Last I checked the Military academies are just that, MILITARY! That means you check your rights at the door. You can still have your beliefs and your opinions, but keep them to yourself.

Where in any information did it say the Cadet was crucified? All it says is the cadet was forced to take the Bible verse down. The next thing you know some “Christian” is going to say he is Jesus Christ reborn and he is being persecuted by Pontius Pilate.

He is a cadet in the United States Air Force Academy. He checked his rights at the door.

When your choice of worship at a military academy is front and center and infringes on those who don’t want or care for your proselytising, then yes they are not allowed to worship as THEY see fit.

Yes. The idea of wearing religious garb of any type in the US military is fundamentally repulsive. An obscenity and direct threat to the best traditions of our armed services as well as the Constitution itself. The recent announcement that this crap was going to be allowed is shocking. And mark my words, WILL have a deleterious impact on unit cohesion and readiness.

Nothing prevents Christians from worshipping as they see fit. But “worship” does not include “cramming down the throats of your colleagues.” There is no “ample documentation of command discrimination against Christians.” In fact QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

Worship as you wish. But have some common damn courtesy and keep it to yourself. The presumption that anyone else is interested in your god, your prophet, your holy book is sheer arrogance.

I don’t accept your premise. Stopping people from forcing their religion on others is not a wrong and certainly not discrimination.

The line is simple. Keep your religion to yourself on the job. This is kindergarten manners…

Yeah, right. so are you making up for lost time now?

Baloney. You are not Joe Shmoe on the street. You’re serving in the US military and yes, unit cohesion, and combat readiness REQUIRE that your Constitutional rights be moderated. The policy is absolutely necessary. And again. So simple. In the workplace, keep your religion to yourself. What the hell is so hard about that? It’s not a matter of “heing offended.” It is a matter of personnel being evaluated on the basis of a religious litmus test, which in fact was happening for YEARS at the USAF Academy.

Couldn’t back your argument up when faced with what the Constitution actually says, so you had to start your own thread? Nice. Here’s what the Constitution actually says (again): “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” That places no limits on Christians. The only limitation it puts on anyone is Congress.

You don’t get it… We’re not talking about being “annoyed” or offended by religious graffiti. We’re talking about people being EVALUATED based on “how Christian they were.” Careers ruined. Promotions denied. Whether you’re Buddhist, Christian, Pagan, whatever. Exercise some common sense and courtesy and don’t presume anybody else wants you to cram your religion down their throat. Practice and worship as you wish… at home. NOT in the workplace. Simple.

American military personnel should be evaluated based on one and only one general premise: competence. Not religion.

“I’m horrified by certain teams so don’t dare say you’re a fan of ____ team around me.”

It doesn’t justify censoring anyone.

How does a sign on a door get anyone’s promotion denied?

Talk about tenuous links.

A sign is not inflicting anyone’s religion on anyone.

In many it takes a baptism.

A sign is not inflicting anyone’s religion on anyone.

In many it takes a baptism.

Jesus wasn’t persecuted or crucified by pontius pilot. Pontus Pilot knew Jesus was innocent and did no wrong he even said so!
It was the priest who had Jesus crucified because of their fear of him , Jesus called them on their self righteousness and knew of malicious acts they were doing they were doing to the people. The priest convince the people to let Barobus go but kill Jesus ‚saying that he was working with the devil .when Pontius Pilate to his soldiers do to him what they say to do . Then Pontius Pilate ask the people ! They the people said crucify him! Even the soldiers had there doubts . think on that ! They crucified Jesus for being good & telling the truth.

Jesus wasn’t persecuted or crucified by pontius pilot. Pontus Pilot knew Jesus was innocent and did no wrong he even said so!
It was the priest who had Jesus crucified because of their fear of him , Jesus called them on their self righteousness and knew of the malicious acts they were doing to the people. The priest convince the people to let Barobus go but kill Jesus ‚saying that he was working with the devil .when Pontius Pilate told his soldiers do to him what they say to do !. Then Pontius Pilate ask the people ! They the people said crucify him! Even the soldiers had there doubts . think on that ! They crucified Jesus for being good & telling the truth.

You miss the point AGAIN. Listen up. Active duty military DO NOT have the same constitutional freedoms as civilians–OF NECESSITY. There was rampant discrimination against non Christians at the USAF Academy and elsewhere in the USAF. Careers were being determined by how good a Christian an airman was, not by his competence. That is not religious freedom.

I stand by my statement. Weak mind and all… Keep religion OUT of the workplace. Especially the US military workplace.

You miss the point again. If I get a less then stellar fitness report, or fail to make rank because I’m a not a 49ers fan, yeah. That’s the same thing. And that’s exactly what was happening to non Christians in the USAF. It was rampant. It was well documented. It was WRONG.

Listen up. Over the past 20 years there has been persistent, egregious and WELL DOCUMENTED, discrimination against non Christians in the USAF and especially at the Academy. the kind of discrimination that damaged and ended careers. This is not obscure. Google away…

Stop sequestration cuts and budget cuts! Make the rich and big businesses pay their fair share. The people are fed up and disgusted with Congress not doing the work we pay them for.

If the USAF is as biased as you say, why even bother to have the message taken down?

There is usually a reason things don’t make sense. I’d have to lean toward rampant political correctness rather than some christian conspiracy, Christians are just not activist enough to pull that off for long.

Well Linda, please define what is their “Fair Share”. Please define the specific tax brackets that would work in your view. By the way, are you aware that corporate tax rates in the US are the highest in the world?

Typical congress doing what they do. Try and stir something up rather than worry about more important stuff. I mean give me a break they play their fiddles why we go to hell in a high speed train.

Look. You guys need to do some research. The policies about proselytizing are in direct reaction to the extreme and pervasive behaviors of officers and leaders at the Academy. In the last decade hundreds of cadets and others have complained about the relentless and prejudicial behavior of evangelical Christians.

Usually led by the Campus Crusade Military Ministry, it’s all part of an organized movement to abrogate the Law (endorsing a non Federal entity while in uniform amongst others) and build a cadre of US taxpayer funded Christian evangelists. This is no joke and it’s not inflammatory rhetoric. Do the research yourself. Religion has no place in the military workplace.

the assault is not on non Christians but on Christians as it seems that a Christian cannot express his
belief in God in his life without criticism. They would rather express their dislikes than the fact that
Christians are sold out to obeying God First!!

Thank you IronV. Some people just don’t want to hear the truth.


Get religious nuts out of the military. It should be seen as offensive and demeaning.

Keeping the Great Society and the largest military organization on the planet isn’t cheap. Along with the greatest eavesdropping infrastructure on the planet.

What are the “CORE Values” as you see them?

A lot of the fore father’s were not religious, but they knew to have a stable country, people had to have the right to worship how they saw fit. As a Mormon, I have a true belief in God, yet my best friend is a Atheist and we have been best friends for 38 years. If non-believers are being punished and others of faith are being being promoted, that is equally wrong. If you know of examples you need to report this to JAG and your OIC.

Dude, you are making the allegation and you expect others to prove it? Sorry, welfare is the only place you can expect someone else to do your work for you.

Still waiting for the sign on the door of a CADET that ended someone’s career…

The personal experience you describe is the beauty, the strength of our country. Like you, I’ve had great, warm relationships with people of various religious persuasions. But we all have to agree: Country First! America First! When you start putting your religion before your country, you have Iraq or Afghanistan.

It’s because you all respected each other and one group didn’t try to convert the others…

YOU miss mu point again. Maybe that was the past and now the pendulum has swung in the other direction. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I don’t accept your claim that keeping religion out of the military workplace is a deprivation of civil rights. I think that’s utter nonsense. This is not a constitutional issue. It’s a readiness issue…

Thank you, sir. Religious divisiveness is a cancer on unit cohesion and therefore readiness.

A sign on someone’s door isn’t injecting religion in the workplace. Is one being forced to read it, respond, change one’s behavior? Of course not. What those who have issue with religion is using the gov’t to suppress someone’s belief. If this person put a rainbow flag up would it be spreading homosexuality?

Have you served more than a day? Service members do have freedom of religion. They do have first amendment rights.

A sign acknowledging one is a Christian isn’t discriminating against anyone. The discrimination today is AGAINST Christians which is why it’s acceptable to you.

Look up hypocrisy.

A sign on someone’s door isn’t religion. It’s a ridiculous premise.

There is no regulation eliminating religion in the military. I know that’s where you want to go but we aren’t there…

A sign stating one is a Christian doesn’t impact readiness unless one has a problem with Christians. A person stating he was gay was considered a readiness issue. Now it’s Christians. The cadet isn’t the problem here.

We will always have idiots among us. Give me a man, in my foxhole, that understands the grace of a loving Savior and the power of prayer.

You served with the Amish, huh? Was that the Amish group that refuses to take part in violence and therefore does not take part in the military because they have a religious belief against doing so?

“Here’s the bottom line: Worship as you see fit. But keep it out of the professional workplace. ESPECIALLY the US Military.”

No can do, Chief. Our Consitution was never intended to be a barrier to religion in the public square. Please save the retort that the Military is not the public square. I get that, but your comment is directed first at the entire public square, and then narrowed to the Military. Regarding religion in the military, I might refer you to one of my favorite paintings hanging in my office — that of General George Washington kneeling in prayer at Valley Forge. That prayer is a historical fact.…

…Our Country was founded on religious principles of freedom. What’s more, to a man who is truly religious, that religion is a part of who he is. You may as well sever him from his soul as to command him to sever himself from his religion while working in his profession, especially when that profession dominates his life like military life can and often does.

For a man who has faith in God, that faith is his strength. Cutting him off from actively and openly looking towards that source of strength in his efforts to serve his country and defend our Constitution is foolishness at best, and rank hypocrisy at worst.

That some religious people supposedly discriminated against others in the Air Force’s past is a poor reason to discriminate against others now with your religion of atheistic aggression.

We have inept Leadership across the board who are more concerned about their promotion and being politically correct instead of doing what the taxpayer needs them to do , I remember being in the Air Force with blacks, whites, asians, latinos, tongas, native americans all religions and not . The only thing that ever made a difference is “Are you willing to Help and if you are come on in’ and if your not get the heck out of here !

The GOP has become useless. Sequestration could be cancelled and our military would be much better off, but they refuse to do so. They have joined Obama to destroy the military.

A tad sensitive, are we? Your reaction to a simple Bible verse speaks way more about you than the cadet who posted it.

The anti-religious bigotry displayed here is truly sad. A simple Bible verse posted on a personal whiteboard is not “cramming” religion down your throat. The strong hatred of this cadet and religion in general speaks way more about the bigots than the religious cadets.

Please cite a single example of your “well-documented” cases of non-Christians losing promotions or getting poor fitness reports solely because of their non-religious status. I eagerly await your response.

No, they crucified Him, not bc He was good or spoke truth but bc He said ‚“I Am” (Declaring Himself,rightly, as God). BTW welcome to the USEO (United States of the Easily Offended).

That statement is bigoted and offense. I served honorably for 8 years and you? I doubt It!

I had one of those. Really nasty boy, he was. Another guy, a buck sergeant, kept Mein Kampf on his bedstand…Hispanic. Go figure.

I also served with Pat Robertson’s oldest son. Adjutant General’s Corps. A real frozen chosen type who hung out with the general’s aide. Even though I was the Assistant SGS, and an enforcer on the job, off duty I socialized better with the other junior officers that he did. But the funny thing about it was — he never talked about his dad. I might have actually liked him better if I had known his upbringing. At some level I get the feeling he had people’s backs even though he treated him like the Gestapo.

What part of: “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” do you not understand? It doesn’t matter what “rights” military cadets do or do not give up. Look at what the US Constitution says. It doesn’t say anything about what rights you or I have. It is strictly a prohibition levied on the US Congress that says the US Congress can’t do anything about it. The very fact they are discussing it on the house floor is unconstitutional. It should be dealt with under Colorado law or by the students themselves.

The 1st Amendment to the US Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. This isn’t about the students or their “rights”. Congress is acting unconstitutionally by the very act of addressing religion in the assembly. What the US Constitution says is very clear on this topic.

What part of “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” do you people not understand?

Our founding fathers said it was God first, then family, then country, in that order.

That’s it, you’re sanctioned. Your name is going on a list, buddy!

Come on, that’s funny. I don’t care what your party affiliation is.

Jesus died for my sins, so in effect I killed him. Anyone who cannot man up to that is not a Christian.

Colorado law is a non-starter as the USAFA is a federal installation.
Now let me get this right, Do you think its acceptable for a senior cadet to order a junior cadet to worship or participate in a specific religious activity?
Oh by the way, the Supreme Court settled this in the 70’s when they ended mandatory chapel attendance at the Service Academies. Pockets of cadets seem to want to continue to require others to worship to a prescribed sect though…

I think that the first amendment says what it says. Again, what part of, “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” do you not understand?

Our military’s biggest enemy is themselves. I guess that’s what happens when your only credible threat folds up its tent and goes away.

No my comment is focused on the military workplace. Period. And Washington was a secular humanist. There is no mention of God in the Constitution.

How can you you sever someone from God? Requiring military people to keep the trappings of their religions to themselves on duty hardly constitutes “severing them from God” or discrimination. What a bunch of melodramatic hooey…

The Framers of the Constitution were secular humanists, products of the Enlightenment.

That does not apply to active duty in the US Military. The Supreme Court has made that very clear.

No, this welfare recipient is not going to do the simple Google search that would enlighten you. When in the US military, keep your religion to yourself. It’s not hard and most do it. The presumption that anyone else should care about your god is sheer arrogance.

I worked on the B-1B, B-2, F-16, F-117, AC-130, space shuttle, ACLM, Trident.
Cut it all, and some bully will pick a fight. Bullies always pick on someone or something without a cause.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Do you really need someone else to tell you what that sentence means?

Ya’ gotta like my hard hitting logic, though. A little name calling. Oops, pedophobe, I forgot the ‘e’. It makes it seem so much more like an actual word. And the gratuitous Hitler reference. Yep, really restores one’s faith in democracy.

Yes or no… Should a senior cadet be allowed to order a junior cadet to worship or participate in a specific worship activity?

Obama can’t be bothered with this, the Russia annexation, or the budget issues right now, he’s working on his final four bracket

Congressional rights don’t apply after you swear in. Different rules come into play to ensure military members are serving at their utmost capacity individually and as a team.

Congress is supposed to get involved when the free exercise of one’s religion is being prohibited however.

You can defy reality all you want. The plane fact is that none of our rights are absolute; that’s what a Supreme Court is for. And that’s especially true in the US military, where you can’t allow behaviors that negatively impact good order, discipline, the chain of command and readiness. There are innumerable limitations on Constitutional rights in the military, as it should be.

Thanks for proving my points.

When in the US military keep your homosexuality to yourself.

Oh wait… all of the idiots out there were screaming about how terrible and wrong and “unfair” that was until that rule was removed and a heap of politically-correct indoctrination forced upon soldiers and officers.

But the people who always push for these things don’t care about the double-standards and hypocrisy. Tell me do you want to get rid of military chaplains too?

So you’re fine with putting Don’t Ask Don’t Tell back into place again then?

We don’t get our rights from the federal government. We don’t get our rights from a document. Our rights are ours simply because we are human. Our federal government has turned this around so that we get our rights from them. What the document actually says is that they have no say in religious issues. No say at all. In the case of Congress it says that in so many words, and you still don’t get it. You want reality? Reality is that you’ve been brainwashed into accepting a lie.

Per the US Constitution that is fine, as is the junior cadet’s right to accept or decline the order. They both swore an oath to uphold that constitution.

Wow, that’s major league gutless.

You meant that to reply to IronV right?

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” All the folks who say Freedom from religion need top go back and take basic Civics. I have the right to practice my religion and you have the right not to practice any religion but you do not have the prevent me from practicing because you have different beliefs.
If that means going to a Church, Mosque, Synagogue or dancing around a fire naked.
I ask the religious bigots “What freedom do you want the government to take away just because someone disagrees with it. The right to own property? right of assembly? freedom of the press? Tyrants will seek to take away your rights under the guise of doing it for the common good. Think on these things and I don’t mean rearrange your bias

Thank you for providing the first coherent reply to this post.

They’re biased by their very nature. They tell everybody to sacrifice for the common good until it’s their turn and cry oppression.

Thank Odin I’m not a believer, then.…..

I don’t understand the connection between Christians and the military. Would someone please quote to me all the passages where Jesus praises the soldier? I’m an atheist and USMC vet from Vietnam era. I knew what war was about and why I was there. Why are “Christians” drawn to the military?

Oh, I am so impressed with superior powers to resist “brainwashing…” Your paranoid rant about the Federal govt notwithstanding, WE are the Federal govt. And if there’s a failure it’s ours. The problem with you and your ilk is that you can’t accept that someone may have a different point of view that is just as valid as yours… The document codifies our rights and the govt ensures them…

Uh, whatever they were…

We’ll lall stand before him one day, and that is when we will know if budgets or faith prevailed for each of us…
The Constitution was never intended totake away one’s right to pray whatever location he was in…We need to call on the Holy Spirit to lead us through these decisions. Only God has the answersthen-now and ever.…

Poll after poll has unequivocally certified that the troops don’t give a rats a$$$ about who’s gay and who’s’ not…

Which is obvious when you see quotes such as:
“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.” — George Washington

“Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped. — Benjamin Franklin

“I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.” — Alexander Hamilton

“The Bible … is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.” –Patrick Henry

And many, many more. Whether they were correct or not, there is no denying that the founders of our country, by and large, held strong Christian beliefs.

I’m not sure the definition of a deist fits in the phrase “secular humanist”. Washington was a deist, according to any history I’ve ever read.

So if we shouldn’t give a damn about the majority of front-line troops who were against that repeal why should we give a damn about a minority of Air Force cadets who are offended by a quote from the Bible? Are they really military material if they are can’t deal with something they disagree with?

So there was no mention of God in the constitution. So what? That means that Washington was not a Christian?

“The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.”

“No people can be bound to acknowledge the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”

“It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors.”

On the other hand, he was not a devout or orthodox Christian, and the prayer at Valley Forge likely did not happen as depicted in the painting (Washington always prayed standing up), but that does not change the fact that he believed that God had a direct hand in all of his affairs.

I think they generally leave that to an individual’s own discretion; but any organized effort to support armed forces will be met with non-compliance. I believe many of them went to the death camps before they would support the German war machine. This added to the already bad food shortages, and HItler once again was an idiot. It they had just left them alone, they would have happily supplied food to homeland civilian non-combatants during the whole 3rd Reich!

Here is something for all you anti-Christians or anti-religious. Take all the Christians or religious people out of the military and you are going to be an awful lonely soldier, sailor or airman. There are more religious and Christian people serving at all levels than you realize.

Yep, the truth is “offensive” to some.

It demonstrates how much aggressive atheists hate Christians that they equate a cadet putting a religious verse on his door to pedophilia, neo-nazis and satanists.

It’s the Dems that obstruct any repeal because they want an equal amount of money returned to entitlements. The Dems are holding the military hostage and whining about defense cuts because they can’t be honest about wanting to increase entitlements.

Well since you asked here are a handful (not all):

John 15:13 ESV “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.“
Ecclesiastes 3:8 ESV “A time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.“
2 Timothy 2:3–4 ESV “Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.“
Luke 22:36 ESV “He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.“
Matthew 8:5–10 ESV When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant,[a] ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel[b] have I found such faith.

As for being drawn it might be the moral code and mission that is attractive.

IronV — I think that you know almost nothing about military history (including US military history). There are hundreds of examples of troops fighting valiantly and wearing religious headgear also. Take the Indian troops that fought so bravely and effectively in WWII? — all were Hindu. Or the Gurkha’s fight in Burma in WWII and were feared by the Japanese — all were Hindu and shouted a battle cry to Kali, a Hindu Goddess when entering battle.

It was said of the Gurkha; ““If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha.” Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, or;

“Bravest of the brave,
most generous of the generous,
never had country
more faithful friends
than you.”

My point here? Religious unity of a military unit is perhaps the best indicator of it’s effectiveness. In contrast, our current government forced diversity, lauded by person’s such as yourself, is destroying the effectiveness of US fighting forces. The USA was founded as a Judeo/Christian country, and the strength of it’s armed forces was a result. Destroy that unity, and you destroy the force.


Repeating a lie doesn’t make it the truth. Give us some examples of this rampant anti-secular discrimination? There have been lots of Generals in the Army who had marginal religious faith, so how were they persecuted? Give examples of rampant discrimination — not single cases.


You know I led a prayer group before every convoy we conducted during our movement into Iraq. It was well attended and only broadcast word of mouth. I prayed in Christ’s name and I don’t think the men and women who chose to pray for our safety and accuracy were nuts.

The cadet had his simple bible verse on his white board used and recognized by the USAFA for BOTH personal and professional communication. The USAFA is an Academic institution meaning that thought should be encouraged. As an academic I am not offended if a Muslim wants to post a surah in an academic environment because I am trained to compare, consider and offer dialogue with those with whom I might disagree.

You lose Christians from the USAFA and I guarantee you that the end result will not be desirable for the Republic.

Even Sadaam Hussein recognized the value of Christians in an organization and protected them within Iraq.

As to sequestration, theoretically congress should be able to deal with infringements on the free exercise of religion AND absurd budgeting priorities based around a stupid little jet deemed too big to fail. I can tell you this, the next time we have troops in contact there will be at least one JTAC out there cursing under their breath that they wished we still had A10s. Especially when they are tasked to hump 5 clicks to go get the punched out F35 driver who was downed by a few well placed DshKa rounds during his “gun” run.

If you take these verses out of context you can come up with the interpretation that you have. But if you look at them within the context of bible you would realize the we (Christians) are to let it be known that we believe Christ to be our personal Savior and He is the Only way to to be saved.
Displaying bible verses is not to exalt the individual but to exault our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
I do not know this Cadet and maybe he/her was trying to exault him/her self, however, to automatically think that is what they were doing is wrong. I prefer to believe they were being obidient to God’s word.

Baloney. The best military in the history of the world is the United States Military–utterly devoid of the religious zealotry that plagues many, if not most militaries around the world. Your revisionist rant notwithstanding, there is not ONE mention of “god” in our Constitution. The United States was founded as a secular, humanist state that recognized the inherent right of each of us to worship OR NOT as we saw fit, without fear of persecution by other religious adherents who believe only THEY know the one, right, true god. Religious unity the best indicator of a military’s effectiveness? That certainly applies to militaries dedicated to oppression. But not militaries that fight for freedom.

Oh, sorry, correct.

What the hell does that have to do with, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”? It’s not a f’ing right. It is a limitation on the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. How much more plain does that have to be for you people to figure that out?

Good luck with that.

It is an unbelievable twisting of the very principles this nation was founded on. They have twisted a limitation on Congress into the federal government being the source of all your rights. When this country was founded, almost all of the states had a state religion. That’s why the first amendment says what it does, because the states did not want the federal government telling them what religion they should follow. They wanted to determine that for themselves. Today, the feds have so twisted the meaning of those simple words that they now go into states and tear down crosses, statues of the 10 commandments, any and all religious symbols having to do with Christianity in blatant disregard for what the US Constitution actually says. It is not their place to do this. The states made that clear when they wrote agreed to have a federal government.

it is divided government. It would be very easy to cancel sequestration. But the GOP is refusing to do so. They have become allies of the ultraleft and will sink the US Armed Forces

Maybe it was Amish mafia? Or maybe I watch too much of the Discovery channel.

I lived around the Amish when I was in Eastern Kansas, and that Discovery channel show is the antithesis to what I observed among them. The people I knew refused to use electricity or cars, but they were practical in other ways, like going to town with a tractor pulling an RV. That was considered OK, despite usually using black horse buggies the majority of the time. Motorist were used to dodging the buggies on the highways in that area.

There was absolutely no crime in the Amish community, and compliance in that community was not enforced short of kicking anyone out that didn’t obey the rules. So the worst thing that could happen to you is banishment from the community — hardly an organized crime situation or “mafia” by any definition I’d use — anyway.

If the cadet has a right to put something on the board outside his room, his fellow cadets have the right to read it or not. If it’s offending to some one then that person doesn’t have to read it, that’s that person’s right.

It was not posted on a personal whiteboard but in a public hallway. It would not have been removed if it had been on a personal whiteboard within the cadet’s room

I would have to agree with Dfens. This is an infringment that is directly related to the congress through the Bill of Rights. It also pertains directly to the President as the individual charged with enforcing the laws of the nation and in his position as COC.

Your premise is demonstrably incorrect. The “vast majority of frontline troops” have repeatedly shown they don’t give a damn. Lots of whackjobs back home care A LOT. But the troops have a lot more important things to worry about other than who sleeps with who…

Are you really not aware that active duty military LAWFULLY have strict limitations on their Constitutional rights? Has that FACT really slipped by you? Are you not aware we have a Supreme Court whose CONSTITUTIONAL mandate is to decide how our rights are measured and applied?

That seals it. You have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about.

Let me preface my response with the following; I am a proud citizen of the USA. I married my American wife almost 40 years ago, but at the time I was a proud British citizen. Unlike most of the generally affable posters here, I actually CHOSE to become a citizen of the US. There was no need for me to do so, since I was guaranteed a “green (permanent resident) card” for as long as I wanted it. A green card gives you all the rights of a US citizen except of two important ones (for me); the ability to vote and participate in the electoral system, and the right to participate in the military.

I’m still proud of the USA, and especially it’s military, and I am one of the few remaining citizens who will go up to a man or woman in uniform, shake their hand, and thank them for their bravery, and for serving in my place. However .…

The USA is currently not the best, but instead the most powerful military in the world today. This is only because of the fact that technological advances have coincided with the USA’s economic and population growth, it’s absolutely nothing to do with secularism. It’s despite it.

Some of your responses are so removed from all conceivable logical thought that I’m actually sitting here a little stunned that you could seriously make them. After all, you appear to be to able to spell correctly and construct sentences and use words of multiple syllables. From that I would have concluded that I could have a logical conversation with you.

Let me attempt to examine your statements one at a time.

1 — “The best military in the history of the world is the United States Military–utterly devoid of the religious zealotry that plagues many, if not most militaries around the world.”

I’m sorry, but that’s patently false, by your own statements. Your prior post stated the following;

“The problem started with Christians in positions of authority evaluating and promoting USAF personnel on their Christianity, rather than how well they performed their jobs. In fact, non-Christians were actively discriminated against and denied promotion based on their status as non-believers. This disgusting state of affairs is not only antithetical to the Constitution and thoroughly immoral, it has horrific impacts on readiness.”

How can we have the “best military in the history of the world” since Christians are promoting Christians and having a horrific (your choice of words) impact on military readiness? The two statements are incompatible — we are either; a) so impacted by religious bias that our readiness has been affected in a horrifically disastrous way, or b)
“the best military in the history of the world”. We can’t be both at the same time, obviously.

Furthermore, sticking still with your claim that we are “the best military in the history of the world” — that’s demonstrably false. Without going into history which has many examples of finer military forces of their time than the USA’s of today, let’s just take a look at Israel’s IDF.

Despite your pronounced religious fervor and unskeptical faith in secularism, the IDF is an almost totally religiously homogenous force — they’re all Jewish in case you don’t know. Admittedly, there are a few of your Druzes and Christians poking about in their ranks, but they actively discriminate against non-Jews in regard to joining the armed forces.

So here’s a total army+air force+navy defense force that has an annual budget of $14.6 billion at last count (that includes the 3.1 billion from us — the best money we spend in the entire budget imo). Compare that to the USA’s annual military budget of around $600 billion. I would argue that dollar for dollar the IDF is the best military force currently in the world.

And furthermore, they have one common religion that unites the servicemen and women in a common cause. This makes them more effective than the 2014 version of the US military which I would claim is beginning to crumble from within due the opposite — a lack of joint beliefs and purpose.

You don’t believe that our military is starting to crumble? How about the officers that are being asked to resign because they have refused to pledge that they will fire on US citizens?

Whether you realize it or not, and it would take pages to explain it all to you logically and with references — this country was founded by Christians, by radical (for their time), extremist Christians. They created a Constitution to prevent the government from intefering in our private lives and in our religious practices and beliefs.

The greatness of the US Armed Forces has passed (I’m sorry — it just has). We once were at least nominally a Judeo/Christian country, based on Biblical laws. But abortion isn’t in the Bible, the Patriot Act isn’t in the Bible, and many of the acts of the CIA aren’t there either.

God bless America –we sure need it.


Dave. Thanks for your faith in my logical potential. Unfortunately, I can’t reciprocate. I utterly reject your premises and conclusions. You are free to make any “claims” you like, indulge any belief–no matter how fantastic, how loony tune. (Unfortunately you revealed your tinfoil hat collection with the crazy talk about officers being fired for refusing to pledge they will fire on US citizens. That is of course, sheer lunacy.)

But your arguments aren’t supportable by objective evidence. You make the same mistake a lot of passionate, misguided, but intelligent souls do: you build your propositions around selected evidence to support your conclusions.

The United States was not “founded by Christians.” That’s utter hooey. The framers of the Constitution were IN FACT secular Humanists. The principles upon which our republican democracy is founded are manifold (including some Christian influences), but primarily grounded in the philosophies of the European Enlightenment. (“Biblical law” had nothing to do with it–thank god!)

Many of those principles, some expressed as “rights” are most often regarded with hostility by religious extremists of all stripes, including Christians (e.g. equal protection under the law, freedom of expression, etc).

And your slurs against our military are unfortunate. The IDF is a fine bunch. But inferior to the US in every regard, not merely technological. Ask Hezbollah…

I study history Dave. You mine it. There’s a difference.

F’ing read it. It says: “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” What the hell world do you live in that makes those 16 words so damn hard to understand?

Well said Col. To bad you are no longer in service. We are all here to best serve our country in the best way we can and a bible verse will not either help or harm, only our courage counts.

Well, IronV, despite your wing nut remark, thanks for replying intelligently. It’s clear from your response that you DO think about these things, so that sets you apart in my mind from the majority who don’t.

Having said that, of course I still disagree with your statements. I just think that they’re factually incorrect. I don’t think that you really understand me and the amount of knowledge I’ve gained during my 61 years or so about the very viewpoints you espouse. History and Economics were my majors in school, and I’ve never lost my love for reading history since. Not to boast, but I have literally read over 1,000 history books of all stripes and opinions since I finished college.

I certainly used to believe, as you do, that the US Constitution was conceived by secular humanists. Certainly though, you surely can’t believe that anything but a small minority of the pre-Constitution settlers were secular humanists, right? In the off-chance that perhaps you do, I’d be interested in reading a generally accepted historian who you think makes that claim.

Perhaps you’ve never had a chance to read some books that make, what to me, seem very convincing arguements of the strong, even radical, Christian sentiments of the writers of the Constitution and founders of the nation.

Just to mention a few here;

1) Washington — attended the Anglican Church and was a “vestryman” (now called Episcopalian) every Sunday. Thought of himself as Christian Deist. Absolutely wasn’t a SH (secular humanist).

2) John Adams — attended the Congregationalist Church and eventually became a Unitarian. Both denominations are Christian, and he would never have called himself a SH. He wrote this to Jefferson; “Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.”

3) Jefferson — attended the Church of England as did Washington. He was quite “liberal” for his day. He believed in Jesus, but didn’t believe that He was the Saviour. He might be closer to a SH than 1) or 2), but he was a religious man nonetheless.

4) Ben Franklin — grew up in the Church of England also, and attended various denominations during his life time. But he often preferred to stay at home on Sundays and read the Bible on his own. He was a very strong Christian. At age 81, he said; “the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth–that God governs in the Affairs of Men.” Not a SH, for sure.

I could go on about all the Founding Fathers, and you’d find them virtually unanimous in their attachment to the Christian religion. You don’t need to believe me, IronV. Try the Library of Congress — as impartial I hope as they get, about the fact that the great majority of US settlers of the 16 and 1700’s came to escape religious persecution. They weren’t SH’s, but Protestants and Catholics who were being persecuted for the faith in Europe.

In the Library of Congress’ article titled, “Religion and the Founding of the American Republic”, this is the first sentence;

“The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men.”

See here for full article; http://​www​.loc​.gov/​e​x​h​i​b​i​t​s​/​r​e​l​i​g​i​o​n​/​r​e​l​0​4​.​h​tml

Much more there of impartial historical interest about the Founding of the USA and the development of the Constitution.

Sincerely .… Dave

My sources are better than your sources and my professors a lot more respected than yours…:) And no Dave, I immediately recognized how well you thought of your own expansive knowledge. And I am not surprised in the slightest you’ve read at least 1000 carefully selected books and kept an accurate count at that.

But with all respect, I’m just not impressed. Your research and presentation thus far lack critical thinking; you have an agenda and your studies are leveraged to support it. However satisfying for you, that’s not very good scholarship.

And frankly, when you started spewing the crazy-ass, wingnut, lunacy about American Military personnel being dismissed for their refusal to take an “I’ll Kill Americans” pledge… well, that hurt your credibility big time. You’re an obviously intelligent guy, so that’s unfortunate.

I am quite familiar with our (unfortunate) Puritan heritage and its baggage that burdens us to this day. But this is hardly a convenient forum for debating the religious proclivities of Washington (he had few, if any) or slinging cherry-picked quotes at each other.

You also haven’t noticed that I haven’t referred to the “Founding Fathers,” a very broad description for an amorphous group. I refer to the Framers. The Framers had no use for organized religion; there is no question they were products of the European Enlightenment. I don’t “believe” that. It is objectively provable.

Quibble the details; argue obscurities or unknowns. Some Deists, some secular humanists. NONE evangelical Christians. The bottom line is “Biblical Law” had no place at the table of the Framers. Christian precepts, most specifically around Jesus, were definite influences. A few in a collection of many spanning thousands of years… From the Greeks to the Magna Carta, From Locke (your fellow Christian and countryman to Descartes.

No, Dave. Your god isn’t better than the guy’s next door. Your religion is no better nor worse than any other. I support your right to believe and worship, so long as you don’t try to hijack my secular, humanist country and its precious Constitution that quite deliberately stays out of the “my god is better than your god” debate.

And thank all of our gods for that and most especially the U.S. Military that ensures our unique and magnificent freedom.

Take care (and “Take Notice!”)


By your own admission in your statement, you are violating not only this cadets’ 1st Amendment Rights, but everyone who works in the United States of America! You are violating the U.S. Constitution!

I would like to know how any who are not US Congressmen could possibly “violate” a constitutional amendment that says, “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

Yeah, you and ALL THOSE LIKE YOU, keep on doing the devils work. You are very deceived. One day you will stand before Jesus Christ, in fact everyone will. The Bible which is the VERY WORD OF GOD, (2 Tim. 3:16) makes it very clear “EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS, IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH, THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.” ( Phil. 2:10–11). It is your choice as when you will, but be assured you will. God loves you and that is the truth, He died for your sins on the cross.

I don’t have a problem with a limited area in which to post whatever you want. It’s one of our liberties. What I do see as a problems is that too much religion creates a military which truly believes that “God is on OUR side.” This leads to more wars, not less, because “god is on everyone’s side.” If there is a God, he/she/it is on NO ONE’s side! That’s the supreme irony, because there is no such thing as a “just war.” Killing is occasionally necessary, but it’s never justified.

It is goot military is concerned for bible verse not agrresive powsture. From my new dacheau in crimea i think military should be concerned for need of Transgender personal to express themsleves. All is wel, do not worry you arr in goot hands. Vlad P. Crimea, New USSR

The State Sponsored Religious nuts are busy cramming gay rights and thought control down everyone throat. The big lie is secularism isn’t a religion but it has its own marriage ceremonies, its own doctrine and state funded Inquisitors and persecutes the non-conformist. What lairs and hypocrites.

You’re trying to avoid a truth, IronV, regardless of your or my religious affiliation or opinions. The following picture is very famous — it’s the signers of the Constitution;http://​www​.archives​.gov/​e​d​u​c​a​t​i​o​n​/​l​e​s​s​o​n​s​/​c​o​n​s​t​i​t​u​t​i​o​n​-​d​a​y​/​s​i​g​n​e​r​s​.​h​tml There are 40 men in the picture, of which 39 actually signed the Constitution, although there were an additional 16 non-signing contributors to the discussions and thought that went into the creation of the document. Every single one of them was Christian and attended a Christian denomination. http://​www​.adherents​.com/​g​o​v​/​F​o​u​n​d​i​n​g​_​F​a​t​h​e​r​s​_​R​e​l​i​g​i​o​n​.​h​tml Not one of them was a secular humanist.regards … Dave

In today’s world it is easier to hate someone because of religion. The military does not discriminate against a wide variety of religion. If you believe in your freedom to do and say as you like please feel free to thank the multitude of veterans and military soldier who fight for that freedom. Putting up a letter on a message board is not cramming someone’s religion down their throats of his colleagues. He has every right to post it there as well as any other religion that the military recognizes. It is sad that you are very adamant about stepping on the freedom that this soldier vows to protect and defend against all enemies FORIGN and DOMESTIC.

If you believe that he is discriminating against anyone then I would suggest either join the military or leave the country because any soldier will fight to the death if necessary to protect the freedoms we have because so many have already given their life for that freedom. Believe what you want, but don’t discriminate against me just because I am a Christian. SO again if you do not like what our founding fathers believed in then feel free to find another county to call HOME. Retired Veteran US Army and to the rest of the people on this blog, feel free to call somewhere else home, for the Veterans and military Soldier fight for you and your freedoms. If you don’t like how they worship, LEAVE.

Plllllllleeeease. Those serving in the US military do not have the same 1st Amendment or any other Amendment protections that civilians enjoy. Good lord, how can that fact be so obscure? Get a grip, people!

This is exactly what I mean… Believe what you want, but please, as a simple courtesy, keep it to yourself… What compels you to push that in peoples’ faces? What crazy presumption makes you believe anyone else is interested in your fervor?

Davey. You appear to be incapable of differentiating between a “Framer,” a “Founder” and a “Signer;” There is no question WHATSOEVER that the architects of our Constitution were secular humanists and products of the Enlightenment. There is a reason that there is no mention of any god in our Constitution. It’s because the Framers recognized that religion had no place in the governance of our country and would in fact be destructive. These facts are not obscure, supported by nearly 200 years of Supreme Court decisions and hardly open to reasonable debate… I feel no need to trade in selected references, quotes etc. Separation of Church and State, Dave. Remember? We don’t live in Iran. We don’t live in a theocracy.

IronV — give me names please. Give me 5 names of “architects”, (or whatever you want to call them) of the Constitution that were secular humanists, please.

You’re just messing around with this “architects/founders/framers” red herring because you don’t have any, do you? Why wouldn’t you just write this exchange off as a learning experience? I would in your shoes.

The Constitution was determined and written in the meetings leading up to the signing. I’ve shown you that every single one of them was at least nominally a Christian. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you are wrong?

regards … Dave

Who is this Christ person anyway?

The fact that you can read that sentence and think it is somehow about you or someone in the military is truly frightening. You simply cannot comprehend the fact that the first word in that sentence is “Congress”. “Congress” is the subject of the sentence, not “cadets at Westpoint”, not “the mail man”, not “your neighbor down the street”, “Congress”. Do you understand that? It is a very simple notion, fundamental to the English language. Thus the rest of the sentence is about what “Congress” can not do. You’ll notice the word “no”, it’s the 4th word in the sentence. So “Congress” was set up to make laws (as discussed in Article 2 of the US Constitution, and the 5th word in the sentence) but this sentence says they aren’t supposed to make laws about “religion. That’s the 10th word in the sentence, “religion”. So we have “Congress” “no laws” and “religion”. To people who speak English that means Congress can’t make laws about religion. Anything else you might be reading into that amendment is pure fiction. It is not there.

The devil’s work has already been done to you. You don’t read the constitution. You don’t know what it says. You believe you get your rights from a document that has absolutely nothing to say about the US citizen.

People in the military swear an oath to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States”. They do not swear any allegiance to the US President even though he is the commander in chief, nor do they swear an allegiance to the Supreme court. That is on purpose. It goes to the heart of the fact that this nation was set up to be a nation of laws, not people. It is a one page document. It is not hard to read. It is about time people in this nation, and especially people in the US military started reading that document for themselves. That’s what they pledged to “support and defend” not someone’s interpretation of that document. They didn’t pledge to “support and defend” European trends in government. The didn’t pledge to “support and defend” some document that multinational corporations wish existed. They pledged to “support and defend” the US Constitution as it is written right now today, and they should know what that means.

Let’s see if you can understand this. The word “Congress” means that legislative body of people who are charged with the responsibility of writing the laws of this nation. “Those serving in the US military” are not part of Congress. They do not work for “Congress”. They have nothing to do with “Congress”. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I believe that when the 1st amendment says, “Congress” it means “Congress”. What “crazy presumption” makes you believe that it applies to cadets at a military academy? Since when did they start writing laws? They take an oath to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States” as it is written, not as it comes out of your or anyone else’s ass.

Let’s just agree to disagree guys and drop the subject. In other words “Fairmez La Bouche.”

What is your point? How is it relevant to the discussion of first amendment rights in the US Military? What the hell?

No. Not “as it is written.” As it is written and interpreted by the US Supreme Court for 200 odd years… The Supreme Court. Remember them?

Well, we finally agree on something…

The “devil?” Are you effing serious? You mean with horns and a tail, a pitchfork and a van dyke? THE DEVIL??? Lucifer? Beelzebub? Satan? Wow. I feel like I’m talking to the Church Lady…

What does the first amendment have to do with a discussion of the first amendment? Are you kidding me! The first word of the first amendment is “Congress”. How can that be so difficult for you to understand? C O N G R E S S.

Yes, as it is written. The supreme court does not interpret the constitution for the people of this country or for the military. No where in the constitution does it give them that power.

Feel free to believe what you want to believe, or to deride me for what I believe. I’m all for you having that freedom. It’s when you try to get the government to take my freedom away at the point of a gun that I protest.

Your assertion that the Supreme Court has no Constitutional authority is just another of your whacked tea party fantasies. I QUOTE Article III Section II:

“The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;-to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;-to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;-to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;-to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;-between Citizens of different States;—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

You have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about. Of course the Supreme Court does that. That’s their job. That’s why they exist and for which they are specifically authorized by the Constitution. But I just realized… you seem to not understand that the Bill of Rights are amendments to the Constitution. Have you ever taken a Civics course? Ever?

Article 3, Section 2 of the US Constitution: “The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution…”

Yes, that’s what it says. Now you tell me where it says that they can “interpret” what the US Constitution says for me, or for anyone for that matter. It is not within their power. It is certainly not within their power to create new “rights” or new portions of the Constitution, nor is it within their power to legislate, although they do that all the time via “precedence”.

Hell, for all the ignorance there is in the US population in general, you’d think this was medieval Europe and and we were the uneducated masses waiting for the Catholic Church to read and interpret the Bible for us. It’s a friggen one page document written in English. It’s not that damn hard to understand even if it is 200 years old.

Here’s another thing the US Constitution says, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.” That’s the 10th amendment. The federal government can only do what is specified for it to do in the US Constitution, and no more than that. They don’t get to create their own constitution. They don’t get to tell anyone how to read the constitution. They get to do what the states agreed to and signed up to in the US Constitution.

The reason the military exists is to protect our freedom, the first being freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Our founders recognized that freedom of religion and speech is essential to freedom. You might not like religion but if you do not support the right to freely express it or allow free speech you are an enemy of what America stands for. The downfall of America, freedom and the Constitution is at hand if our own military forbids Bible verses to be posted.

Our military men all swear an oath to “uphold and defend the Constitution” thus they have a responsibility to know what that constitution says in order to know if they are following orders that are appropriate to the oath they swore. I was disappointed to see that only one soldier refused to go to Iraq when Bush sent our military there without a declaration of war. At the time I wasn’t necessarily against the sending of troops, but it should have been done per the constitution. The soldiers don’t need the Supreme Court to interpret what the constitution says about this. It says quite plainly that only Congress can “declare” a war.


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